Tamyrlin: 2005-07-27

Why will he lose all of his memories of his previous life? Okay, so your belief regarding the access to memories is an effect of the soul, in other words, the memory leakage is a natural part of the soul? Also, from the glossary, we are told, "Dragon, the: The name by which Lews Therin Telamon was known during the War of the Shadow. In the madness which overtook all male Aes Sedai, Lews Therin killed every living person who carried any of his blood, as well as everyone he loved, thus earning the name Kinslayer." LTT was the Dragon, and Rand is the Dragon Reborn. I agree there was an incarnation of the same soul during the First Age, but likely it was unknown as the Dragon.

Sum Black Eye: 2005-07-27

I think that not only is LTT inside of Rands head, but there is someone else inside of LTT's 'head'. I think that the current Dragon hears the previous Dragon and that the previous Dragon(LTT) hears not only the current Dragon(Rand) but also the person who was the Dragon before him(???), which is why it sometimes seems that LTT is having more then just the conversation that we are privy to through Rands POV, it is almost as if he is replying to someone else other then Rand. LTT specifically makes mention of the fact that he is aware of someone other then Rand in Chapter 22 of Winter's Heart when He says, "...How many will we three kill before the end, I wonder." In the next age when there is a new Dragon, he will hear Rand and Rand will still hear LTT. And so on and so on as long as the wheel turns.

This goes along with your theory in that maybe instead of separate persons it is separate memories of the same person/entity that we know as The Dragon.

Callandor: 2005-07-27

**I thing we have been missing a point here. Rand is the dragon reborn, he is not just any person in the wot. How many times has the Dragon been reborn? who/what was the Dragon? The last question is for Jordan, but the first is easy: 2.**

The first answer is wrong. The Dragon soul has been reborn many times, also in non-Dragon incarnations. That is an RJ answer.

The second one is easy. The Dragon is one of the Heroes of the Horn spun out by the Wheel whenever the balance of the Pattern is being thrown off by humanities choices. The Dragon, and all the Heroes of the Horn, correct this and bring the Pattern back into balance.

** Now let's count ages, this is the third age. I know it is the wot, but lets assume that before 1 there was nothing... Let it be light (and dakness)!**

It was a different turning then. This is not the first turning of the Wheel. We have proof of that through Birgitte's references to her many rebirths and lives that she has lived, so many that her deepest furthest memories know that there were many many more before that. There have been many more Ages than 3; the Wheel just keeps turning.

**I think Rand has the same problem/ability/situation/gif/call-it-what-you-will that Mat has (But in Rands case, it is part of being the Dragon reborn, not because somebody gave him the gift). But then, why Mat does not sit down to discuss his battle plans with his memories? Because Mat is not Mad, or more precisely, because he has never been.**

Mat's memories are of course not his own, but have become his own. Rand is quite different in that his memories come from a known person, and that person is his previous incarnation: Lews Therin.

Rand more than likely has these memories from Lews Therin's past live coming through to him due to the taint.

**The previous one was mad! he even had voices in his head!**

Please quote where it shows Lews Therin had a voice in his head. There are many different ways one can go mad.

**You can say that Rand may not be crazy, but he certainly was.**

Rand is suffering from madness, yes.

**Rand doesn't hear voices, no more than Lewis TT did, he hears himself.**

Agree with you there.

**So there you have it, the voices are real, they exist. But they are not, you see, it's been Rand all along, talking to himself.**

Then they don't exist. The voices would be simply a construct created by Rand. I would agree with this, but it's far too simplistic and doesn't explain where he got the memories from.

**And then he'll defeat them all and loose all his past lifes memories, so the Dragon reborn dies, but rand lives.**

Rand is the Dragon Reborn. The Dragon Reborn dies -- Rand dies. There's no magical seperation in that.

JakOShadows: 2005-07-29

Richard: I agree for the most part with your theory. It just seems like it's not totally a construct of Rand's. It seems like the memories seep in through the voice and I think of them as a way to explain the memories in his head. And I don't think he will lose his memories after the Last Battle. I believe he will die and Rand will live on when he is reborn in the next turning. But besides that I agree.

Richard: 2005-07-29

Oops,

I posted this theory a couple of days after I became a member... that was a while ago. Many things have been pointed out to me and there have been some changes to my thoughts...

Rand is a hero of the horn. That is clear. BUT, he is always the Dragon, else he would not be able to "remember" (by any theory that have been posted). Ishy said as much (back on the first book, when he said his name was Morin). -- This is just to point that Rand is not just ANY hero.

My theory never went to explain how the memories are there, just to say that they were that: memories, rather than souls or other people, etc. For that matter, i like the dream world theory for how Rand came to have access to this memories -- As it fits quite well with my other arguments.

And it also explain why Birgitte would loose her memories.

Just one last thing: I think Mat memories are his own. The argument that people hasve given me to indicate otherwise is just not convincing enough. I mean that Mat have seen Arthur Hawkin far too many times and died by his hand plenty to have it done on one go... which is nonesense. They are both heroes, they have probably fought more than once in all all their countless lives! "Do you remember Hawkin's face toy?" Toun said. So at least one of those is certainly his, and there is probably a Dream/telling/thing involved for Toun to know it. But maybe ther is more to it... Maybe Mat's is always fighting AH. After all, he was the "son of battles" long before he met the snakes.

brother of Battles: 2005-07-29

I have to agree with callandor for the most part. LTT was crazy, but there was no referrence in the tiny prolouge "Dragonmount." I do however agree with you that there are more then just "LTT" voice in Rand's head. Your reference about "How meny will the THREE of us..." Also, there was a time when LTT said something like "you, me, and the other one." I don't recall where that was said, but it was.

And just like what Callandor said, Mat is not remembering his past lives. He was granted those memories from other people that used the doorways into Finnland. That was the answer RJ gave to Mat's memories.

Rand already is the Dragon Reborn. LTT was the first Dragon. NOT the first ever dragon, for there is neither a beginning or an end in the turning of the wheel, but he was a beginning. (Like the useage there!?!?!) So anyway, Rand is the DR, he was born that way...Gitara's fortelling said that..

"He is born again!" Gitara cried. "I feel him! The Dragon takes his first breath on the slope of Dragonmount! He is coming! He is coming! Light help us! Light help the world! He lies in the snow and cries like the thunder! He burns like the sun."

That tells you he was the Dragon Reborn since the moment of his birth. He won't become the dragon reborn once he realizes the voices in his head is just his own creation.

Anubis: 2005-07-30

"'I thing we have been missing a point here. Rand is the dragon reborn, he is not just any person in the wot. How many times has the Dragon been reborn? who/what was the Dragon? The last question is for Jordan, but the first is easy: 2.'

The first answer is wrong. The Dragon soul has been reborn many times, also in non-Dragon incarnations. That is an RJ answer."

I doubt that previous dragons had their previous dragon voices floating around in their heads, or the memories. Spose only RJ knows for sure though, you know I dont buy the taint theory.

Callandor: 2005-07-30

**Rand is a hero of the horn. That is clear. BUT, he is always the Dragon, else he would not be able to "remember" (by any theory that have been posted). Ishy said as much (back on the first book, when he said his name was Morin). -- This is just to point that Rand is not just ANY hero.**

He's not always the Dragon. The Dragon is a name given by humanity. It's the same thing as "the Last Battle." Will this be the last battle ever fought? No. We know that. There will be things still to fight over and for after "the Last Battle." But humanity still calls it that.

The Dragon is just that -- a name. We only refer to Rand's soul as "the Dragon soul" for ease of usage. But it's not everytime the Dragon soul is spun out that people know it as the Dragon. It could be the Fred. It could be the Whale. It could be the Condo. It's just a name.

Rand is not just any Hero? What differenciates between Heroes? Has there been any difference? No. None has been made.

What we have is the Dragon soul generally being the Champion of the Light. Generally -- RJ has said in interviews that if the Pattern needs a "female Dragon" someone else would fulfill that role.

The thing is that Rand is just another Hero of the Horn. People just want to lump a whole bunch of extra things on to him to explain these things away instead of finding a system that allows this to happen to potentially anyone.

**My theory never went to explain how the memories are there, just to say that they were that: memories, rather than souls or other people, etc. For that matter, i like the dream world theory for how Rand came to have access to this memories -- As it fits quite well with my other arguments.**

Most people who have been kept aware of minor events at Theoryland or other sites similar know that RJ has confirmed that Rand is one soul with two personalities. Almost everyone agrees that Rand is being effected by memories -- the difference lie in how many you believe there are, and how they got to Rand.

Simply writting off how the memories got to Rand, is hardly a "review" of the voices.

And the "dreaming" aspect has a few faults in it for being the sole cause of the memories (most important is that there are large changes from Rand at the start of The Shadow Rising to the start of The Fires of Heaven, and Rand does not enter tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh throughout that time period -- yet this is when Lews Therin first starts to actually appear).

**Just one last thing: I think Mat memories are his own.**

They're not.

**Q: What exactly are Mats memories, are they from his ancestors, as they all seem to be connected to Manetheren??

A: mat' memories are NOT from his ancestors. He said I want to have the holes in his head filled but he did not specify exactly what he wanted them filled with and so he received scraps and bits and pieces of memories stolen from other men.**

They're not from Mat's ancestors. They're not the Old Blood running strong. They're not just Mat's regular memories. They're memories taken from men that lived in those times by the Aelfinn and Eelfinn and given to Mat at his asking.

**are both heroes, they have probably fought more than once in all all their countless lives!**

It's not confirmed that Mat is a Hero.

Traveller: 2005-07-30

I don't know about Richard's theory, but I agree with Sum Black Eye, even though I have not really though about it before now. I also think that Rand and Mat's conditions are completely different, as I don't believe that Mat hears voices and what Richard was saying about Rand only hearing the voice because it was mad, delusional people nowadays can have split personalities, but as far as I know, they ae not seperate memories (like what Mat has) but split parts of the person's personality, so I don't think Rand's condition could be compared to what we know here and now on earth.

Richard: 2005-07-31

Ok, ok...

As I said this was posted some time ago... and I have been out of the posts for a while after that (Holidays!) so I missed much. I have been reading some replies on other threads and want to move on.

So:

Yes Anubis, I agree with you entirely. The dragon soul has lived many times... and not always as the Dragon. But at least that means that Rand has been always the Dragon.

And I finally have been convinced that Mat's memories are not his own (by Callandor, again). BTW Callandor, reviewing the voices was a poorly choose title. But as I said before I was a newbie and tried to post a theory too early. that's all.

So I'm back to the drawing board... I still believe that the voices are the result of Rand "hearing" memories but I don't think is the taint as Callandor says. No, nothing to back this up with. I'll let you know if I think of something (before somebody else's do).

Baean AimaDe: 2005-07-31

First, I skipped Some of the lines but this jumped out at me

"Rand is not just any Hero? What differenciates between Heroes? Has there been any difference? No. None has been made. "

Not True. Who led the heros when Mat Blew the Horn in TGH? That's Right , Artur Hawkwing. However a closer examination , look at what Hawkwind Says. He's Followed LTT Before. The dragon isn't just ANY hero ( Just like he's not just ANY tavern ). He's THE Hero.

What other reasons do I have to Say this? It seems the More "powerful" the Tavern , the Less they get spawn out. Consider References ( sp? ) that Talk about how Powerful a Tavern Hawkwing was. He was the most powerful Tavern in Age 3, Yet he Paled in comparison to Rand AlThor ( Thus the Tavernship that is the dragon's Soul ).

So there was and Is a differentiation Between Hero's. The "dragon" Soul is the ultimate Hero ( Look at it like this ) There are Different classes of "Hero's" If the Absolute Strongest is needed, the pattern Spins out the dragon Soul. If it's not quite that bad , It Spins out ( for example ) Hawkwing's Soul. If it needs a "normal" Hero , it spins out Birgette's Soul. And so on.

Why the long Dialogue? The dragon Isn't a common Pattern Spinout. He can't be, the pattern doesn't Spin out someone that powerful for no reason.

The hook - I forget who ( it was either Lanfear or Ishamael ) was ruminating on the nature of Rand AlThor, Ishy had been obsessed about the Spinning of the wheel throughout the first two books ( See is unceasing referrences to thousands of battles between the two ). I believe it was lanfear in the same PoV where she was thinking about Ishamael and his theories , was "commenting" that Certainly of Anyone being "reborn" into a specific person of prophesy ( come to think of it , it might not have been lanfear at all.. I'm at work tho and can't look it up ). This implies that the dragon Soul is "Unique", and probably ONLY spun out to fight "a Last Battle" ( As Herid Fel says there can't be THE Last Battle or the world would end ).

I agree with the Orginal poster that the LTT voice is Rand's own Subconcience putting voice to LTT memories , and most likely the "3rd" person is the future incarnation and possibly here's Rand's voice in his head" Because LTT is unique and the penultima of all Hero's.

There's also a theory ( fleshed out in full on WoT faq website ) that suggests the voice is a product of Rand not being able to Deal with his "dragon" soul, Suppressing his emotions and memories. If Cadsuane is going to teach him to "Laugh and Cry" ( Remember at this point Cadsuane is Closely tied with Alivia in some fashion ), What will make rand Cry? or Laugh? and thus ( to tie in with other prophesies ) Help Rand die. At least one of his deaths maybe. If Something alivia Does ( or is forced to do ) becomes the catalyst of Cadsuane being able to teach him emotions again thus fulfilling Min's prophesy of the merging personalities ( it's more complicated I know ). Everything fits together quite neat.

P.S. the last paragraph is merely a cooked up theory !

But , i think you can clearly state that Rand DOES have LTT memories ( and perhaps prememories of a 4th age dragon ) , the Voices have Something to do with that ( most likely his subconcious way of dealing with what he doesn't know how to deal with ).

Baean AimaDe: 2005-07-31

To support My last Point ( Who knows if it will get posted since it looked a Mess ! ) We do have a precedent for the "Super Hero" Remembering past Lives. Out of all the Forsaken who is the only one that has any inkling of what's happened before? Yup Ishamael (A.K.A. Moridin ). Ultimate Good guy - Same Parallel as Ultimate Bad guy

Btw, if it's not just me being ignorant, why are no spaces showing up with my posts?

Callandor: 2005-08-01

**Not True. Who led the heros when Mat Blew the Horn in TGH? That's Right , Artur Hawkwing. However a closer examination , look at what Hawkwind Says. He's Followed LTT Before. The dragon isn't just ANY hero ( Just like he's not just ANY tavern ). He's THE Hero.**

Hmm, funny that RJ didn't say he was THE Hero, when he said he was a Hero of the Horn.

Yes, Rand is the Dragon Reborn. Yes, the Dragon soul is the Champion for the Light (unless it requires a female role).

But he is just a Hero. He is just a channeler. He is just a man. At the core, he is no different than anyone else reborn in the world -- except that he is a Hero.

**I agree with the Orginal poster that the LTT voice is Rand's own Subconcience putting voice to LTT memories , and most likely the "3rd" person is the future incarnation and possibly here's Rand's voice in his head" Because LTT is unique and the penultima of all Hero's.**

Ah. So now you're favoring a verison to explain the voice(s) that involved chronological differences. Rand, somehow has his future incarnation in his head, when he hasn't been re-incarnated again yet.

**There's also a theory ( fleshed out in full on WoT faq website ) that suggests the voice is a product of Rand not being able to Deal with his "dragon" soul, Suppressing his emotions and memories.**

Yes, I know of it. It's an inherent part of my barrier degredation theory.

**To support My last Point ( Who knows if it will get posted since it looked a Mess ! ) We do have a precedent for the "Super Hero" Remembering past Lives. Out of all the Forsaken who is the only one that has any inkling of what's happened before? Yup Ishamael (A.K.A. Moridin ). Ultimate Good guy - Same Parallel as Ultimate Bad guy**

Ishamael's beliefs on what has happened before are just that -- beliefs. However, they more than likely are correct (except it might of course not always been Rand vs. Ishamael's soul).

zelyoni: 2005-08-04

***The first answer is wrong. The Dragon soul has been reborn many times, also in non-Dragon incarnations. That is an RJ answer.***

While I don't doubt that you have proof of this from an RJ interview, could you please link me to it? The only reason I ask is because when I think of Rand re-living all of his possible lives (when passing through the portal stones on their way to Toman Head) in every life Rand had he ended up Channeling at some point and eventually going crazy and dying. And at the end of every one of those deaths he hears "I have won again, Lews Therin."

Now that I think about it, it's interesting that he calls him "Lews Therin" in every one of his reincarnations. Why Not Rand Al'Thor or some other name?

Back to the voices. I believe that the voices are real. I believe that it IS LTT talking to him from "The other side" with the other side being the last age. And I think that the voice that LTT hears is that of Rand. Kinda like in the movie Frequency.

But, here is another point. Very little is known about the "Dragon" or "savior" or whatever you want to call him prior to LTT. Is it possible that in every age prior to LTT the Dragon's name was (is, will be) "Rand Al'Thor" and that in the next age we (outside observers) will be throwing out conjecture over whether the voice of Rand that LTT hears is real or just LTT talking to himself?

ThunderWalker: 2005-08-04

When I read the part where they traveled by Portal Stone, I always assumed that the voice saying "I have won again, Lews Therin" was Ishameal, and he always calls Rand LTT.

When the Horn was sounded, Hawkwing states that he has fought besides Rand many times before. That could be refering to non-Dragon incarnations.

Callandor: 2005-08-04

**Q: "Is this soul born in any other age, or only at the advent and the closing of the Third Age, as The Dragon/TDR?"

A: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age.**

**Back to the voices. I believe that the voices are real. I believe that it IS LTT talking to him from "The other side" with the other side being the last age. And I think that the voice that LTT hears is that of Rand. Kinda like in the movie Frequency.**

Here's the thing. Frequency sucked as a movie ;)

Secondly, Lews Therin is dead. He's dead for 3500+ years.

Thirdly, there is no time altering or any possible way that someone who is dead, can talk to the living, as if they are still alive in their current time.

If they're dead, they're dead. There soul returns to the "soul pool" (or tel'aran'rhiod in the case of Heroes), and they await rebirth, and the Wheel and Pattern continue on.

**Is it possible that in every age prior to LTT the Dragon's name was (is, will be) "Rand Al'Thor" and that in the next age we (outside observers) will be throwing out conjecture over whether the voice of Rand that LTT hears is real or just LTT talking to himself?**

Rand al'Thor is just a name. It would have to be that people in the First Age, and the Seventh Age before that, and the Sixth Age before that, and so on, had the same reasons and cultural existance to name the Dragon soul when it was reborn as a child Rand al'Thor.

Traveller: 2005-08-05

I think the point made by zelyoni is very important about Rand always being called Lews Therin, but could someone enlighten me:

Ishamael tells Rand in book2 that he remembers everything, from the first moment. I thought that Ishy, and all the other Forsaken were Aes Sedai from the Age of Legends! Does this mean that some of the AS from the AoL were alive from the first moment or before??!?!?! I think I might be barking up the wrong tree, but the quote has always confused me. I was thinking that if Ishy had been alive since when he said, he only refers to LTT as the Dragon, so it seems that from creation, LTT was the 1st Dragon (I am not saying this is true, I am just wondering). I do believe that there were others before LTT, but then why is he the Dragon, not the Dragon Reborn?

Maybe it is because the world was "created" more than once. As in the the world was in constant cycle of the DO winning (because Ishy says that LTT has knelt before him so many times before etc etc) and destroying the world, then the Creator remaking it, but maybe this time Rand will win, and the world can go on...?

Before you completely tear this up, I am just trying to be open minded and I am not saying that I think any of this stuff is true or has any proof, I am just theorising on very thin ice.

JakOShadows: 2005-08-05

There are a lot of new ideas here I just wanted to comment on.

First of all, I don't think that LTT can talk to Rand when he's dead. It's just a personality he has put to those memories. As for the third person, I have no idea what to attribute that to. He doesn't have to think about the far off future much, so he wouldn't need to build a construct to explain it. And it could be why it so weak if it was built to explain it, but I don't see enough evidence to even explain it well enough, in my opinion.

And as for him being the super hero of the horn, maybe it only applies when he will be fighting the last battle. Since he is the champion of the light, then the creator could give him some special insight into the situation to help him. Considering there was no one to help him to learn to channel, maybe he was allowed to see his past the more he channeled to help him learn to control it. But then if the same hero is reborn as a false dragon, he doesn't have the same level of ta'veren and abilities. Hence, he would be a weaker hero. So his enhanced hero abilities are only connected with the last battle, not just the soul. And in tEotW, we do see him get a little help from the creator, so we know it is concievable.

Traveller: 2005-08-06

If LTT can't talk to Rand, how can Rand remember those things coz he is a Hero of the Horn, so he should not be able to rememember things so clearly from other lives.

Callandor: 2005-08-07

**If LTT can't talk to Rand, how can Rand remember those things coz he is a Hero of the Horn, so he should not be able to rememember things so clearly from other lives.**

I'm submitting a theory on this very topic (because I am getting tired of not having a central collection of my theory), so if you wish you can reply further there.

It boils down to this: Rand should not be able to have those memories from his past life. What's allowing them to come through, is the taint, degrading what barrier exists between his past life (Lews Therin) and his present life (Rand himself).

JakOShadows: 2005-08-07

traveller: LTT doesn't have to be talking to him. The way I think of it is as more of a construct for LTT's thoughts in the past life, and since he can't seem to come to terms as that being him, he attributes it a separate persons voice. This is seen in certain psychological disorders, so it is possible to do. I think the memories and beliefs are LTT's, not the voice. And it could also be caused by it being such a wide gap of time and different body, but it is still Rand's/LTT's soul it is tied to and I believe one soul can't have two voices.

zelyoni: 2005-08-08

****If LTT can't talk to Rand, how can Rand remember those things coz he is a Hero of the Horn, so he should not be able to rememember things so clearly from other lives. ****

I believe they are bleeding over into each other. an effect of the web, maybe? It has been proposed that the web is interconnecting on all levels, from all worlds, from all times.

***TITLE: Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 21 - A World of Dreams

"Very good. But the Pattern may be even more complex than that, child. The Wheel weaves our lives to make the Pattern of an Age, but the Ages themselves are woven into the Age Lace, the Great Pattern. Who can know if this is even the tenth part of the weaving, though? Some in the Age of Legends apparently believe that there were still other worlds - even harder to reach than the worlds of the Portal Stones, if that can be believed - lying like this." She drew more lines, cross-hatching the first set. For a moment she stared at them. "The warp and the woof of the weave. Perhaps the Wheel of Time weaves a still greater Pattern from worlds." Straightening, she dusted her hands. "Well, that is neither here nor there. In all of these worlds, whatever their other variations, a few things are constant. One is that the Dark One is imprisoned in all of them."

maybe their lines at some point cross, making it possible to communicate. Almost like when people sometimes (very rarely) pick up their phone and hear someone talking on the other line.

Not saying that is what happened. Just giving one possible reason.

El Bogarto: 2005-08-08

Quick question for everyone; I discarded this theory a long time ago but I have to ask, did anyone ever wonder if Ishamael's soul was a corrupted Dragon (or something like that)?

I seem to recall Ishamael claiming that the Dragon soul had turned to the Shadow before, and a Forsaken thinking of the nasty implications in that thought.

Even if it was BS...maybe, that's how the DO recruited Ishamael in the first place. Definitely would have appealed to Ishy's ego whether it was true or not.

Callandor: 2005-08-09

**I seem to recall Ishamael claiming that the Dragon soul had turned to the Shadow before, and a Forsaken thinking of the nasty implications in that thought.**

Ishamael is a source of many truths, but also a known liar. In this case, we have no true way to say whether it is a lie or not, except that Rand also asserts the exact opposite: that he (the Dragon) has never turned to the Shadow, ever.

Laughingman: 2005-08-15

I'm hoping someone will correct me if I'm wrong here, but I'm seeing things from a slightly different angle here.

I distinctly remember a line early on in the books that questions what exactly happens when someone is 'reborn' and that it 'Has never happened before' 'A specific soul reborn according to prophecy'

Add in Min's viewing of Rand, of 'two men merging into one and not know which one it will be.

'His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul' 'Helping Rand die' to me all point that Lews Therin will die at the last battle and that Rands soul will live on.

Maybe I'm missing things here, but I'd say it was certainly possible that Rand is indeed discussing things with Lews Therin and not just 'putting a personality to those memories he's not willing to deal with'

Callandor: 2005-08-17

**I distinctly remember a line early on in the books that questions what exactly happens when someone is 'reborn' and that it 'Has never happened before' 'A specific soul reborn according to prophecy'**

That's Graendal talking in The Fires of Heaven prologue.

**'His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul' 'Helping Rand die' to me all point that Lews Therin will die at the last battle and that Rands soul will live on.**

Rand is his soul. Lews Therin is a personality:

**Audience: The question is, with Rand and LTT, do they have 1 soul or 2 souls in the body?

Robert Jordan:

They have 1 soul with 2 personalities. The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul. This is the cosmology that I came hobbled together.**

So if Rand dies, Rand dies. If Lews Therin "dies" it probably won't effect Rand at all, since he's a personality, not a soul.

**Maybe I'm missing things here, but I'd say it was certainly possible that Rand is indeed discussing things with Lews Therin and not just 'putting a personality to those memories he's not willing to deal with'**

How? Lews Therin is dead. He's been dead for 3500+ years. He's not talking to him on a ham radio across 3500+ years of chronological difference into another universe here.

Lews Therin is dead. Rand is Lews Therin's soul (the Dragon soul) reborn. That is a key point of this series, and how Rand cannot talk to a live Lews Therin.

The only way it would be the "real" Lews Therin, was if the barrier between Rand's past and present lives was degraded, and Lews Therin's entire personality crossed over into Rand. Even then, it still wouldn't quite be the same.

Cutty: 2005-08-19

Howdy Folks...first time posting here.

I once posted a theory on the Dragonmount website in relation to the Voices. If this falls into another theory I apologize.

Here it goes.

Is Rand insane?

The very fact he hears a voice in his head for most is cause to claim he is insane. I do not think this.

Rand hears the voice of LTT. He doesnt THINK its LTT he KNOWS its LTT. The Voice knows things only LTT would know, says things only LTT would say, etc.

Now...im not saying Rand is playing with a full deck, Im just saying that him hearing voices is not conclusive enough to say he is nuts.

Cadsuane asked him if he was hearing voices...and claimed its common to men as the taint corrupts them.

Now here is my thought on that. Bare with me.

It has been said manytimes that men grow faster in the power then women...why?

I believe the reason being is because in the men burried in thier subconscience is a channeler like LTT is for Rand.

As the Taint breaks down thier mental barriers between the conscience and subconscience mind this personallity goes from subtly guidence to full on personallity.

Now, seems like a stretch...but think about it. If you had some unknown person in your head talking to you...you would think your Nuts..and after while you would drive yourself there trying to reject the fact your hearing voices. But...what if you had a voice in your head claiming to be someone Historically Famous that spoke of things ONLY they would know or say things only they would say?

I mean could you really say someone is insane if all of a sudden they spoke in a language they have never heard before? Or said things they couldnt possibly know but do now? This is why I think alot men go insane...they think they are and in the end drive themselves to it. (Dont get me wrong, some have absolutely snapped...)

Well thats the basics of it...i couldnt find my original post so had to paraphrase most...but i think the concept gets across.

I apologize for spelling, and poor grammer.

Balinor: 2005-08-19

Lews Therin was THE Dragon, not the Dragon REBORN. Rand is the Dragon REBORN. Rand had memories of the Forsaken that LTT knew, BEFORE he ever heard LTT'S voice in his head. (Check out the fight between Rand and Be'lal at the end of TDR for confirmation). Rand doesn't start to hear LTT's voice in his head until the beginning of TFOH, after he has the big fight with Asmodean in Rhuidean. Remember, they both channel through the Choedan Kal there, and Rand is exposed to more of the taint than he ever has been. LTT'S voice is a symbol of Rand's taint-induced madness. Later, Cadsuane states that hearing voices is a common manifestation of the madness in male channelers. Unless she is Black Ajah, we pretty much have to believe her, because she's under the 3 oaths. The only question is if anyone will realize what's happened, and possibly be able to heal him before Tarmon Gaidon (maybe Nynaeve)?

Laughingman: 2005-08-20

*How? Lews Therin is dead. He's been dead for 3500+ years. He's not talking to him on a ham radio across 3500+ years of chronological difference into another universe here.

Lews Therin is dead. Rand is Lews Therin's soul (the Dragon soul) reborn. That is a key point of this series, and how Rand cannot talk to a live Lews Therin.

The only way it would be the "real" Lews Therin, was if the barrier between Rand's past and present lives was degraded, and Lews Therin's entire personality crossed over into Rand. Even then, it still wouldn't quite be the same.*

To answer the HOW - As Graendal and a bunch of others say, he is the Dragon REBORN. Every theory of reincarnation shows that some leakage occurs from one life to another, and there have been dozens of documented cases where people knew things they just had no possible way of knowing due to 'past life experiences'

If we are willing to accept channeling in the book, the mercedes emblem popping up (I liked that one btw, in the books), and the possibility of Rand having Multiple Personality Disorder for his psychosis, then why aren't we willing to accept that yea, maybe he does indeed have Lews Therin's entire personality, memories, etc. stuffed into his head.

And certainly, if you've got someone elses personality stuffed into your brain, why not chat with them.

Callandor: 2005-08-21

**Rand hears the voice of LTT. He doesnt THINK its LTT he KNOWS its LTT. The Voice knows things only LTT would know, says things only LTT would say, etc.**

Througout The Fires of Heaven, Rand goes from wondering what causes the memories and thoughts (eventually voices), to becoming convinced it's Lews Therin. He doesn't know right away, but yes, it's because of what he's been shown: actual memories that only Lews Therin had.

**Now...im not saying Rand is playing with a full deck, Im just saying that him hearing voices is not conclusive enough to say he is nuts.**

Rand's at least somewhat mad at around late The Fires of Heaven throughout the rest of the series. It's not that it's a fake voice completely made by madness, it's just that him talking to a voice is a sign of madness, even if this presence gives some factual information.

**As the Taint breaks down thier mental barriers between the conscience and subconscience mind this personallity goes from subtly guidence to full on personallity.**

I have a similar theory, but it deals with the past and present lives of a channeler being effected by the taint, not the conscious or subconscious.

**Lews Therin was THE Dragon, not the Dragon REBORN. Rand is the Dragon REBORN. Rand had memories of the Forsaken that LTT knew, BEFORE he ever heard LTT'S voice in his head. (Check out the fight between Rand and Be'lal at the end of TDR for confirmation).**

1. Yes, Lews Therin was the Dragon. Yes, Rand is the Dragon Reborn. No, these are not cosmological answers to everything -- they are simply names given to two figures by men. All Rand being the Dragon Reborn means... is that he's the Dragon Reborn. He's Lews Therin's soul reborn. That's it.

2. Please quote those instances. I know of none of those as early as The Dragon Reborn.

**LTT'S voice is a symbol of Rand's taint-induced madness.**

By-product is how I would phrase it.

**To answer the HOW - As Graendal and a bunch of others say, he is the Dragon REBORN. Every theory of reincarnation shows that some leakage occurs from one life to another, and there have been dozens of documented cases where people knew things they just had no possible way of knowing due to 'past life experiences'**

1. You really need to clarify if you mean Lews Therin alive and well in the Age of Legends, or Lews Therin in Rand's head (construct or personality).

2. Are you claiming real world examples as proof? Otherwise, they only example of leakage from past to present lives is Rand himself.

**If we are willing to accept channeling in the book, the mercedes emblem popping up (I liked that one btw, in the books), and the possibility of Rand having Multiple Personality Disorder for his psychosis, then why aren't we willing to accept that yea, maybe he does indeed have Lews Therin's entire personality, memories, etc. stuffed into his head.**

It's a phrasing mistake I'm sure.

And if you really think one of the major proponants that Lews Therin is a construct (not Lews Therin's full actual personality; a construct, an alternate personality, made by Rand) in Rand's mind based of actual memories from Rand's past life as Lews Therin, doesn't accept it -- you're sadly mistaken ;)

Look for Barrier Degredation, should be posted soon.

William Seeker: 2005-08-22

The reason Mat dosen't talk with his memories, is because they're memories. Not an entire lifetime of memories with a personality. Reclolections of battles and stuff. They're not part of his soul.

Callandor: 2005-08-23

**The reason Mat dosen't talk with his memories, is because they're memories. Not an entire lifetime of memories with a personality. Reclolections of battles and stuff. They're not part of his soul.**

So, you're implying that Rand has an entire lifetime of Lews Therin's memories, and his personality?

That's one heck of a claim you're going to have to prove.

dozburger: 2005-08-29

Just read the end of TDR: "And it was written that no hand but his should wield the Sword held in the Stone, but he did draw it out, like fire in his hand, and his glory did burn the world. Thus did it begin. Thus do we sing his Rebirth. Thus do we sing the beginning."

Sorry if I've missed something that everyone else got 8 books ago, but I've only just realised what that could mean. At the very moment Rand took the sword, the Dragon was reborn. Or, more probably, the moment Rand declared: "I am the Dragon reborn," the Dragon was reborn. Up until that point, Rand had merely been ta'varen. By making a deliberate decision, he became the Dragon Reborn.

And thus everything ensued. I posit that at the moment of Rand's declaration - Lews Therin was reborn in Rand's head - ready and armed to dispense the wisdom of the well and truly whacked. [I'm pretty sure the first reference to LTT is just after that, when Rand uses Callandor: 'Now,' said a voice like mad laughter at the edge of thought (or something like that)]

As we know, Lews Therin and Rand are two manifestations of the same soul - however, I think the Pattern possesses only one Dragon soul. Thus one soul can have multiple manifestations. This is probably pretty rare, and only occurs when the Pattern undergoes some serious trauma (say the DO laying his hand across it? Or maybe the tainting of part of the Pattern's engine - saidin?). Anyway, as soon as Rand declared himself the Dragon, all extant manifestations of that soul entered his body (hee hee. I just used the word extant). So why was LTT hanging around, extant, if you will, and why didn't every other Dragon soul manifestation cram into Rand's head at that moment?

RJ's made it clear that the ultimate purpose of the Dragon, or more particularly, the soul of the Dragon, is to meet the DO. I'm hypothesising that completion of that purpose also completes that particular Dragon soul manifestation. Presumably all previous Dragon soul manifestations completed their purpose and thus ended their manifestations. But the converse also applies: the LTT manifestation has not completed its purpose, so it has been reborn in Rand. LTT sidestepped that purpose in the previous age - to the best of our knowledge he didn't meet the DO. Thus LTT has been reborn to complete what his manifestation needs to do. The Pattern demands this meeting occur. If Rand somehow sidesteps that meeting, then there'd probably be another few millennia of chaos until the Pattern produced another ta'veren with the potential to become the Dragon (and with both Rand and LTT as incomplete manifestations crammed into his / her head). Hence I'm convinced that Rand has LTT in his head, it is the Pattern forcing the Dragon soul to complete its purpose.

Maybe you could take this further and say that Rand is just a carrier for LTT, a body that can carry the Dragon soul around until it completes its purpose. At completion, the manifestation (ie. LTT) ends and Rand's home free. But to disengage a conjoined soul, you'd think that something pretty serious would have to happen, something maybe as serious as Rand dying?

Oh, and I've got money on the third one being Ishamael - Min's viewing of the man touching and merging with Rand, the crossing of the beams and concurrent touching, and the hints from Moridin's POV are all pretty suggestive. But only time will tell. Hope this is not all old hat and that I'm not too far behind the times...

Callandor: 2005-09-01

**At the very moment Rand took the sword, the Dragon was reborn. Or, more probably, the moment Rand declared: "I am the Dragon reborn," the Dragon was reborn. Up until that point, Rand had merely been ta'varen. By making a deliberate decision, he became the Dragon Reborn.**

No. Rand's always been the Dragon Reborn. It's not a state in the Pattern or anything. Lews Therin was the Dragon. Lews Therin died. Rand is Lews Therin's soul reborn into the world. Rand is the Dragon Reborn.

Rand did not truely accept that until he took Callandor, but he was always the Dragon Reborn (otherwise, Gitara's Foretelling that "he is reborn!" make absolutely no sense).

In any case, it would've been at Falme, since right after that Rand declared himself, and from then on the Pattern could not and has not supported any other false Dragons. But, Rand has always been the Dragon Reborn, do not confuse the issue.

**I posit that at the moment of Rand's declaration - Lews Therin was reborn in Rand's head - ready and armed to dispense the wisdom of the well and truly whacked. [I'm pretty sure the first reference to LTT is just after that, when Rand uses Callandor: 'Now,' said a voice like mad laughter at the edge of thought (or something like that)]**

The problem with this is really important:

If Lews Therin was suddenly "reborn" in Rand's head when he took Callandor, why does he not appear in full fledged form like he is in the Rand's chapters in Crossroads of Twilight? You may simply say "Well, he is," but you'd be dead wrong. Over the course of the books, and The Fires of Heaven especially, we've seen what eventually becomes Lews Therin (the first assumed "action" or "event" of Lews Therin is just before the "Now" voices when Rand tells Lanfear that she always loved power) change and grow in presence. Rand does not start off with a glibbering mad man in his head of which he has to fight to control saidin -- at the start of what eventually becomes Lews Therin are without a better word, simply memories. We see Lews Therin grow in strength and presence from these.

If Lews Therin were just "reborn" in Rand, like you say, we'd see Rand go from what he was like prior to taking Callandor to the state he's in at the end of Crossroads of Twilight. That is one heck of a change, and did not happen just overnight.

**As we know, Lews Therin and Rand are two manifestations of the same soul - however, I think the Pattern possesses only one Dragon soul.**

The Pattern doesn't possess anything. The Wheel takes a soul, puts it into a body (a person is "reborn" in the world then), and this is a thread and this thread continues for all that person's actions until they die. All the Pattern is, is all those threads in total.

Rand has the Dragon soul in him -- that's why he is the Dragon Reborn. Lews Therin is just another personality in Rand's mind.

**Anyway, as soon as Rand declared himself the Dragon, all extant manifestations of that soul entered his body (hee hee. I just used the word extant).**

Again, we'd see a change in Rand that was monumental -- we do not see that at all in the books. We see a gradual change.

**So why was LTT hanging around, extant, if you will, and why didn't every other Dragon soul manifestation cram into Rand's head at that moment?**

Probably because Lews Therin didn't just "cram" into Rand's head in the first place.

**RJ's made it clear that the ultimate purpose of the Dragon, or more particularly, the soul of the Dragon, is to meet the DO.**

RJ has done nothing of the sort -- if anything, he's deliberately made the waters muddy as can be.

Rand cannot "meet" the Dark One. The Dark One is not apart of the Pattern. The Dark One exists seperate and sealed away from the Pattern.

Does Rand "fight" the Dark One? Again, how? The Dark One is not apart of the Pattern -- he's seperate from it.

Or, does Rand fight the Dark One's champion? More than likely, yes, since the Dark One's champion is a person that can be fought (Moridin is obviously currently the Dark One's champion).

Does Rand seal away the Dark One, whether that be temporary or "permanent"? More than likely, yes, he will.

**But the converse also applies: the LTT manifestation has not completed its purpose, so it has been reborn in Rand. LTT sidestepped that purpose in the previous age - to the best of our knowledge he didn't meet the DO. Thus LTT has been reborn to complete what his manifestation needs to do.**

Once again, one cannot "meet" the Dark One.

**The Pattern demands this meeting occur.**

It demands nothing of the sort.

**Maybe you could take this further and say that Rand is just a carrier for LTT, a body that can carry the Dragon soul around until it completes its purpose.**

Again, you're missing the key point here: Lews Therin is dead! He is not alive. His purpose was served, otherwise, he would not be dead, and would still be alive until he did.

Rand is Lews Therin's soul reborn. There is no more Lews Therin.

Franco13: 2005-09-02

I recently came across an interview with Jordan where he replied as such:

JORDAN> "Mat' memories are NOT from his ancestors. He said I want to have the holes in his head filled but he did not specify exactly what he wanted them filled with and so he received scraps and bits and pieces of memories stolen from other men".

Not to be confused with the voices that Rand hears.