he voice in Rand's Head
by Cyberkil: 2005-08-10 | 5 out of 10 (12 votes)
OK, I'm gonna give this theory business a shot. This will be my first theory, so let me know what is wrong with it. In reviewing some of the old theories, I did find mention to this. Fistandantilus mentions it and Callandor comments on it.
The theory is about where the voice in Rand's head came from and who it might be. I believe that the voice is actually Lews Therin Telamon or his soul or whatever it is that a Hero of the Horn might be when not spun out.
This theory started in my head when rereading the series in preparation for the new book. In The Dragon Reborn, I was reading the end with the battle between Rand and Be'lal then Ishamael disguised as Ba'alzamon when I came across this passage:
The Dragon Reborn - What is Written in Prophesy - Pg. 652 (paperback ed.)
"Twice in this life I have offered you the chance to serve me living." Flames leapt in his mouth as he spoke, and every word roared like a furnace. "Twice you have refused, and wounded me. Now you will serve the Lord of the Grave in death. Die, Lews Therin Kinslayer. Die, Rand al'Thor. It is time for you to die! I take your soul!"
As Ba'alzamon put forth his hand, Rand pushed himself up, threw himself desperately toward Callandor, still glittering and flashing in midair. He did not know if he could reach it, or touch it if he did, but he was sure it was his only chance.
Ba'alzamon's blow stuck him as he leapt, struck inside him, a ripping and crumpling, tearing something loose, trying to pull a part of him away. Rand screamed. He felt as if he were collapsing like an empty sack, as if he were being turned inside out. The pain in his side, the wound taken at Falme, was almost welcome, something to hang onto, a reminder of life. His hand closed convulsively. On Callandor's hilt."
Interesting that Ishamael is trying to take his soul when you think of the other theories being thrown around on here talking about souls. Now Rand is saved by grasping Callandor, and apparently the massive amount of the Power flowing through him stopped Ishamael's attack.
It is only after his fight with Ishy that we start to see peeks of Lews Therin. The one with Lanfear where he shouts "And you loved power!" is only one of the first. We also see him "remembering" how to do a few spectacular things with the power. (For example: The weave that destroyed the Trollocs and Myrrdraal in Tear, the trap he wove when he placed Callandor in the Stone and the gateway to travel to Ruidean from Alcair Dal to name a few.) Everything he does or remembers before could be explained with the "Old Blood" thing. (Mat remembering bits of the Old Tongue even before the 'finns.)
Perhaps this is connected and perhaps not, but in Rhuidean, Rand battles Asmodean. Now this one's shaky. In the battle with Asmodean while holding the Choden Kal {sp?} he mentions that Asmodean is attacking with powers that would kill him or destroy his soul. I don't know if this means some of that might have leaked through, but it is an interesting coincidence. Perhaps Ishamael's attack opened Rand up to damage to his soul. Now, Asmodean's attacks may have had no effect since he may have blocked them all, but I thought it worth mentioning.
Now a question occurs. When a Hero of the Horn is spun out, what happens to the personality or "soul" of the previous Hero? It should reside somewhere in the spun out person. It certainly doesn't stay in the World of Dreams. If Rand has taken some form of "soul damage," perhaps part of that hidden personality slipped in to fill the gap.
Perhaps, since it seems to be progressing, with more and more of Lew Therin coming out, we can imagine that the Taint could be exacerbating the damage caused by Ishamael. For example, it is only after starting to train with Asmodean that he starts to remember full images or memories from Lews Therin. There are some things that he remembers that Asmodean didn't even know. It's also after longer, more extensive use of the Power that the voice becomes more "real" and even starts to seem to talk to him.
Well, that's about as much as I have on this theory. Feel free to rip it to shreds or add supporting/disproving quotes.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2005-10-03
Cyberkil, you point out a very interesting quote. This portion sounds very suspect, "Ba'alzamon's blow stuck him as he leapt, struck inside him, a ripping and crumpling, tearing something loose, trying to pull a part of him away." He struck inside of him, and there was a ripping and a crumpling. If you compare this to the barrier, and it mentions that there is something tearing look, that which is pulling a part of him away. I like how you pose this Cyberkil, as potentially a quickening of the effects of the taint. This could be an addition, if you like Callandor's idea, to the idea that the amount of taint quickened the process. A very good idea Cyberkil. I can't remember discussing this specific quote, nice catch.
2
Tristin: 2005-10-03
That's a really good theory, I like it alot. Not much to add till after KOD comes out. But I'll tell you then!
3
Callandor: 2005-10-03
**The theory is about where the voice in Rand's head came from and who it might be. I believe that the voice is actually Lews Therin Telamon or his soul or whatever it is that a Hero of the Horn might be when not spun out.**
Rand is Lews Therin's soul reborn. Lews Therin was the previous incarnation, Rand is the current incarnation. Hence, the Dragon Reborn. One soul, two personalities -- not two souls.
**It is only after his fight with Ishy that we start to see peeks of Lews Therin. The one with Lanfear where he shouts "And you loved power!" is only one of the first. We also see him "remembering" how to do a few spectacular things with the power. (For example: The weave that destroyed the Trollocs and Myrrdraal in Tear, the trap he wove when he placed Callandor in the Stone and the gateway to travel to Ruidean from Alcair Dal to name a few.) Everything he does or remembers before could be explained with the "Old Blood" thing. (Mat remembering bits of the Old Tongue even before the 'finns.)**
1. Yes, it is after the battle with Ishamael that we first come across instances of what eventually becomes Lews Therin. Have to remember though, there is a lot more that happened in that battle.
2. No, Rand does not have the Old Blood -- only Two Rivers people have the Old Blood, and Rand was raised amongst them, not born from them. Rand has Aiel and Andoran Royal blood in him. You can make a vague case that Rand might have "partial Old Blood", but this is silly. It would either be far too little at all to be considered Old Blood, or not enough near the level of Old Blood that we see in Mat or Egwene or Perrin.
**Now a question occurs. When a Hero of the Horn is spun out, what happens to the personality or "soul" of the previous Hero? It should reside somewhere in the spun out person. It certainly doesn't stay in the World of Dreams. If Rand has taken some form of "soul damage," perhaps part of that hidden personality slipped in to fill the gap.**
1. It is seperated from the current life by a barrier of some kind.
2. It obviously wasn't a personality that came over into Rand's mind, otherwise he would go from being the Rand in The Eye of the World, to the Rand in Crossroads of Twilight in the blink of an eye. In the between time of those two comparisons, we see the appearance, the growth and increase of strength, and the more fleshed out Lews Therin appear. It would be an instantaneous change, not a gradual one as we have been shown.
**For example, it is only after starting to train with Asmodean that he starts to remember full images or memories from Lews Therin.**
So, is it the taint or not?
4
Lord of Salvation: 2005-10-04
Ba'alzamon's blow stuck him as he leapt, struck inside him, a ripping and crumpling, tearing something loose, trying to pull a part of him away. Rand screamed. He felt as if he were collapsing like an empty sack, as if he were being turned inside out. The pain in his side, the wound taken at Falme, was almost welcome, something to hang onto, a reminder of life. His hand closed convulsively. On Callandor's hilt."
This sounds like the same weave Lanfear used on Rand in tFoH, where she slowly tears away at his insides. This was just an attempt at a quick kill not the slow torturing method Lanfear used IMO.
5
Astra-al: 2005-10-04
"2. No, Rand does not have the Old Blood -- only Two Rivers people have the Old Blood, and Rand was raised amongst them, not born from them. Rand has Aiel and Andoran Royal blood in him. You can make a vague case that Rand might have "partial Old Blood", but this is silly. It would either be far too little at all to be considered Old Blood, or not enough near the level of Old Blood that we see in Mat or Egwene or Perrin."
Well one could argue that Rand has the Old Blood as well, merely a different type of Old Blood. Mat/Perrin/Egwene have the old blood of Manetheren, while Rand has the old(ancient) blood of the aiel. Plus there's probably some Old Blood involved with Andoran Royalty too.
But Rand does not have the Old Blood of Mantheren.
6
Tristin: 2005-10-04
It seems like its got to be both actually. If some kind of soul damage really does occur from Ishmael's attack thats one thing, but Rand BLOCKS the attack by drawing on a ton of power that is SUPERTAINTED through Callandor. It seems to me like if the soul started dissolving, or at least the barrier during the attack,then maybe the taint (whenever he channels) is ripping the hole bigger and bigger. It seems like whatever is happening to the Dark One's barrier is similiar to what is happening to the LTT / Rand barrier. When Rand goes from just one-off memories to having normal conversations with LTT is like at the beginning of the books when the DO's hand is on the world but he's not out kind of thing if you know what I mean. It seems to me that the taint is ripping a big hole in his Soul barrier that was severely damaged in the battle with Ishmael. I'm curious (and need a quotemaster for this) if there are earlier times in the books where Ishy or someone else is trying to rip his soul out...maybe in his dreams or something....hmmm
7
El Bogarto: 2005-10-04
"Ba'alzamon's blow stuck him as he leapt, struck inside him, a ripping and crumpling, tearing something loose, trying to pull a part of him away."
I took this to mean that Ishy was trying to shield/sever Rand, and drawing Saidin through Callandor saved him. We know that it's much harder to shield someone if they are actively channeling, or just embracing the source.
8
: 2005-10-04
Thanks Tam and Tristin, nice to know that my first efforts here weren't pathetic.
Callandor: I guess I should have looked up the Barrier Degradation theories before I sent this one in. This should be a subsidiary or add on to that.
**Rand is Lews Therin's soul reborn. Lews Therin was the previous incarnation, Rand is the current incarnation. Hence, the Dragon Reborn. One soul, two personalities -- not two souls. **
True, sorry for the misstatement there.
**2. No, Rand does not have the Old Blood -- only Two Rivers people have the Old Blood, and Rand was raised amongst them, not born from them. Rand has Aiel and Andoran Royal blood in him. You can make a vague case that Rand might have "partial Old Blood", but this is silly. It would either be far too little at all to be considered Old Blood, or not enough near the level of Old Blood that we see in Mat or Egwene or Perrin. **
Mat, Perrin, Egwene and Nynaeve share the Old Blood, called that since they are direct decendents of Mantheren , destroyed 2000 years ago. Rand is Aiel and Cairhien/Andoran. Cairhien and Andor (both nations birthed out of the War of One Hundred Years after Artur Hawkwing's death) are old, but the Aiel are older than Mantheren by more than 1000 years. If we were just going on vintage of blood, the Aiel would win hands down.
When I said the "Old Blood" thing, I put it in quotes because I knew it wasn't exactly the same thing, just related. If we want to find out how much related, that would be a different theory.
**1. It is seperated from the current life by a barrier of some kind. **
Yup, appropriate nod to the Barrier Degradation theory.
**2. It obviously wasn't a personality that came over into Rand's mind, otherwise he would go from being the Rand in The Eye of the World, to the Rand in Crossroads of Twilight in the blink of an eye. In the between time of those two comparisons, we see the appearance, the growth and increase of strength, and the more fleshed out Lews Therin appear. It would be an instantaneous change, not a gradual one as we have been shown. **
True, but what we are seeing is the first breach in the Barrier between Rand's personality and the personality of Lews Therin, the Hero of the Horn. Oddly enough, the first example I thought of for this is the Dark One himself. When Ishmael created the breach, Lews Therin was able to poke a toe through. Perhaps due to Lews Therin's force of personality, but mostly due to the Taint (I believe) that Breach has been widening and more of the Lew Therin personality is showing through. (hence the Dark One reference above with his reaching through the Bore.)
**So, is it the taint or not? **
The initial cause was Ishamael's attack on his "soul," but I think the increased exposure to the Taint caused the breach to widen allowing more and more of Lews Therin to poke through. Weather this Breach can heal now that the Taint is gone, I don't know, but I doubt it will before Tarmon Gaidon.
9
Traveller: 2005-10-04
Hey! I think you might just be right!
Before now, I had connected the soul-tearing weaves by different forsaken together with LTT but never like this.
I do think that your Asmodean points are very valid and back up what you are saying (as well as the reference to Lanfear by Lord of Salvation).
Well done!
10
JakOShadows: 2005-10-04
Cyberkill: The parts I did follow were interesting. Maybe trying to pull someones soul from their body causes their barrier weakened, and it has occured several times to Rand in tDR, tSR, and tFoH, but I don't know quite what you are getting at with the previous soul filling the gap. I still think LTT/Rand are one soul but two memories from different life times and RJ has said this himself. And if what you say is true, then it would have to correlate to his traveling into T'A'R. Which we have realized in another theory that it doesn't correlate with that, but rather his massive amounts of channeling. But I do think your initial idea is possible, but how it occurs is flawed I believe.
11
Anubis: 2005-10-04
I always thought Ishamael was trying to rip out his soul... but call me old fashioned.
and i dont believe in barriers. mostly because callandor does and partially because i disagree.
12
Callandor: 2005-10-05
**Plus there's probably some Old Blood involved with Andoran Royalty too.**
Involved -- possibly. Enough to be considered "Old Blood" -- not a chance. Where Caemlyn came from is taken from the country of Coremanda, one of the wealthiest and largest countries before the Trolloc Wars. Andor has only continued to be the metropolitan area, giving rise to lots and lots of genetic variation.
**TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 19 - Shadow's Waiting
"Don't say that!" Thom drew a deep breath; everybody stared at him now. "That is dangerous talk, stupid talk. The dead can be reborn, or take a living body, and it is not something to speak of lightly." He took another breath to calm himself before going on. "The old blood, she said. The blood, not a dead man. I've heard that it can happen, sometimes. Heard, though I never really thought . . . It was your roots, boy. A line running from you to your father to your grandfather, right on back to Manetheren, and maybe beyond. Well, now you know your family is old. You ought to let it go at that and be glad. Most people don't know much more than that they had a father."**
**TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 47 - More Tales of the Wheel
"The old blood," Moiraine said, "split out like a river breaking into a thousand times a thousand streams, but sometimes streams join together to make a river again. The old blood of Manetheren is strong and pure in almost all these young men. Can you doubt the strength of Manetheren's blood, Lord Agelmar?"**
Not to mention, this only happens in isolated areas where inbreding occurs (such as the Two Rivers). The Aiel are an ancient blood, certainly, but they are quite disperse and the fact that Rand's parents are not both Aiel makes it practically impossible for there to be any true "old blood" in him as such as be referenced in Mat (especially Mat), let alone Egwene and Perrin.
**Mat, Perrin, Egwene and Nynaeve share the Old Blood, called that since they are direct decendents of Mantheren , destroyed 2000 years ago. Rand is Aiel and Cairhien/Andoran. Cairhien and Andor (both nations birthed out of the War of One Hundred Years after Artur Hawkwing's death) are old, but the Aiel are older than Mantheren by more than 1000 years. If we were just going on vintage of blood, the Aiel would win hands down.**
Yes, the countries are old, and the Aiel are old -- however this is not the "old blood." Again, it only happens in isolated areas where inbreding occurs -- Andor and Cairhien are clearly not these, especially the Royal lines. The Aiel are "isolated" in a sense, but they are no where near as isolated as the Two Rivers is, and have far more people which disperses the bloodlines.
**True, but what we are seeing is the first breach in the Barrier between Rand's personality and the personality of Lews Therin, the Hero of the Horn. Oddly enough, the first example I thought of for this is the Dark One himself. When Ishmael created the breach, Lews Therin was able to poke a toe through. Perhaps due to Lews Therin's force of personality, but mostly due to the Taint (I believe) that Breach has been widening and more of the Lew Therin personality is showing through. (hence the Dark One reference above with his reaching through the Bore.)**
But, it is not a personality that first comes through -- it's memories.
**The initial cause was Ishamael's attack on his "soul," but I think the increased exposure to the Taint caused the breach to widen allowing more and more of Lews Therin to poke through.**
But how would removing a person's soul from their body cause a breach in the barrier between past and present lives? The soul is made up of all these past lives, all seperated by barriers -- for a breach to occur it would have to be like Ishamael trying to remove part of Rand's soul, instead of the entire thing.
If you wish to use the analogy I used for the barrier degradation theory, then imagine a jar and inside the jar, are the present life's memories. The lid, the "barrier", is the cap over them. The "air" outside the the jar, are all the past lives' memories.
This jar would be the soul in essense (technically the jar and the stuff around it, but you should be able to get what I mean). If you want to add to this, you could say that the jar sits in a cupboard (the body of a person). What you're saying is that Ishamael trying to remove the jar from the cupboard is damaging the lid -- why would it? Ishamael is trying to remove the entire jar, not parts of it. The removal of the jar wouldn't effect the barrier; it would just remove the soul entirely from the body.
** I still think LTT/Rand are one soul but two memories from different life times and RJ has said this himself.**
One soul, two personalities.
13
JakOShadows: 2005-10-05
Anubis: I see what your saying, but I was wondering if, when your soul is ripped out of your body, it weakens the barrier between your past lives. Like if the barrier is something connected with the body and not the soul. It would be a logical step to make in my mind, but there isn't any evidence for it. But I do still agree with Callandor on this, that the seepage of memories is due to the barrier degradation between Rand's past lives. This theory interests me because it brings up another way of how it could happen. But I really don't think this has as much support, as compare to the taint.
14
bogo: 2005-10-05
Sorry, i'm new to the site so i'm not quite sure what the protocol is here, but i have a pretty strong feeling the other voice in Rand's head is actually Moridin. Correct me if i'm wrong but the third voice (not Lews Therin) started after Rand's trip to Shadar Logoth to kill Sammael. When Rand and the stranger(Moridin) cross weaves to kill Sammael they are somehow linked. I think this is Moridin because he is actually tapping into the True Power and Rand never senses the stranger channel.
After this point Lews Therin refers to a third party in Rands head. Lews Therin actually says to Rand and i'm just paraphrasing here "we have killed many you and I and the other one". It seems as though Lews Therin is frightened of the this third entity and treats it separately to himself and Rand. Sorry not entirely sure where this happens in the books as i don't have them with me. I'd love to hear some thoughts on this matter as it has troubled me since i came up with the theory...
15
Cyberkil: 2005-10-25
Callandor:
**TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 19 - Shadow's Waiting
"Don't say that!" Thom drew a deep breath; everybody stared at him now. "That is dangerous talk, stupid talk. The dead can be reborn, or take a living body, and it is not something to speak of lightly." He took another breath to calm himself before going on. "The old blood, she said. The blood, not a dead man. I've heard that it can happen, sometimes. Heard, though I never really thought . . . It was your roots, boy. A line running from you to your father to your grandfather, right on back to Manetheren, and maybe beyond. Well, now you know your family is old. You ought to let it go at that and be glad. Most people don't know much more than that they had a father."
Even according to the quote above that you used it states that the Old Blood is a direct line from his father to grandfather all the way back. There is nothing of inbreeding there. I don't think inbreeding has anything to do with it. Isolated breeding population does not inbreeding make.
Since, by the quote you supplied, the Old Blood is a direct line from father to grandfather on back, then Rand and the Aiel still win hands down. As we saw with Rand in the columns, his ancestry goes back to the Age of Legends.
Callandor:
**But how would removing a person's soul from their body cause a breach in the barrier between past and present lives? The soul is made up of all these past lives, all seperated by barriers -- for a breach to occur it would have to be like Ishamael trying to remove part of Rand's soul, instead of the entire thing.
If you wish to use the analogy I used for the barrier degradation theory, then imagine a jar and inside the jar, are the present life's memories. The lid, the "barrier", is the cap over them. The "air" outside the the jar, are all the past lives' memories.
This jar would be the soul in essense (technically the jar and the stuff around it, but you should be able to get what I mean). If you want to add to this, you could say that the jar sits in a cupboard (the body of a person). What you're saying is that Ishamael trying to remove the jar from the cupboard is damaging the lid -- why would it? Ishamael is trying to remove the entire jar, not parts of it. The removal of the jar wouldn't effect the barrier; it would just remove the soul entirely from the body. **
Your jar analogy is very shaky. What keeps the air (past lives memories) around the jar? What is the connection between the jar and the air around it that make it a soul? Analogies by definition are imprecise, and yet that is what we are usually reduced to.
Let me try to sort this stuff out. First we have to imagine an Oversoul. This would be a soul belonging to a Hero of the Horn, someone whose soul is reborn over and over for the will of the Pattern. The memories of past lives are retained and the soul has access to them in T'A'R between lives. I believe that these lives/memories are serial in nature. In other words, a past life's memories aren't dumped in a great pool, they are retained in a separate bubble. This bubble is only connected to the memories of the life before it and after it. Long line of bubbles.
So we have this long line of bubbles, a string or thread if you will. Rand's life/memories are connected to the "Oversoul" of the Dragon only through Lews Therin Telamon, the previous life/memory. When he was spun out, a barrier came down to block Rand from accessing the life/memory of Lew Therin and perhaps to prevent the life/memory of Lews Therin from interfering in Rand's life. When Ishamael used the Power against Rand in the Stone, he was in the process of separating the life/memory, which is Rand from the Oversoul of the Dragon, but was stopped in the middle. The link between Rand and the previous life in the chain, Lews Therin, was not severed, only damaged.
Memory was the first thing to start crossing over, but (I believe) due to the Taint, the breach widened allowing Lews Therin more freedom. More of the personality of Lews Therin came over as things went on.
Now, in the latest book, we see Lews Therin actually take control and channel without Rand. This could mean that the barrier is still weakening which would lead us away from the Taint as a majority reason for the continued degradation, but I still think it was a major contributor.
16
Callandor: 2005-10-25
**Even according to the quote above that you used it states that the Old Blood is a direct line from his father to grandfather all the way back. There is nothing of inbreeding there. I don't think inbreeding has anything to do with it. Isolated breeding population does not inbreeding make.**
The Two Rivers people in Emond's Field mate with only Two Rivers people. At most, they might go to Taren Ferry people and get some outsider blood added in -- it won't get them the old blood.
Eventually, the bloodlines can only spread so far in the population isolated like this for so long before inbreeding occurs. Hate to break it to you, but inbreeding is occuring. It's not like brother is marrying sister or anything -- it's diffused, but occuring.
**Since, by the quote you supplied, the Old Blood is a direct line from father to grandfather on back, then Rand and the Aiel still win hands down. As we saw with Rand in the columns, his ancestry goes back to the Age of Legends.**
But Moiraine's comment doesn't make any sense then. The old blood is split like a river (cosmopolitan cities; diversity of genes) isn't forming again. The Aiel are too numerous and too spread out. It's like saying the nation of Cairhien has the old blood because they are decended from people that lived during the Breaking. Sure, they are. But they've been mixing with people who are not Cairhienin for thousands of years, and you're saying the entire nation. Way too many people.
**Your jar analogy is very shaky. What keeps the air (past lives memories) around the jar? What is the connection between the jar and the air around it that make it a soul? Analogies by definition are imprecise, and yet that is what we are usually reduced to.**
It just is. As I said, it's a counter-intuitive analogy.
**When Ishamael used the Power against Rand in the Stone, he was in the process of separating the life/memory, which is Rand from the Oversoul of the Dragon, but was stopped in the middle. The link between Rand and the previous life in the chain, Lews Therin, was not severed, only damaged.**
And that's the entire problem.
Ishamael was not trying to remove "Rand al'Thor" the bubble from the "Oversoul." He was trying to remove the entire soul from Rand's body. As he said, "I take your soul!"; not "I'll take your personality!"
If you wish to draw a parallel, Ishamael was trying to do to Rand what Machin Shin did to Trayal the Ogier or what the Dark One does to Grey Men (though that's a voluntary removal of a soul). He was trying to take his soul out of his body. Whether this would've killed him or not, debatable (I would say this form of it would have since Ishamael didn't show any inhibitions to killing Rand from then on and told him quite clearly "die Rand al'Thor" before hand).
17
Cyberkil: 2005-10-26
**The Two Rivers people in Emond's Field mate with only Two Rivers people. At most, they might go to Taren Ferry people and get some outsider blood added in -- it won't get them the old blood.
Eventually, the bloodlines can only spread so far in the population isolated like this for so long before inbreeding occurs. Hate to break it to you, but inbreeding is occuring. It's not like brother is marrying sister or anything -- it's diffused, but occuring. **
Inbreeding is the mating of closely related people. I would say that inbreeding might occur in the Two Rivers, but the societal inhibition against incest (stronger in a small population) might prevent a lot.
A more useful way of putting it might be to compare it to breeding an animal (or person) for a certain genetic trait. In this case, the trait we call the "Old Blood." In this sense, the Two Rivers is a great place to breed for that trait: a closed society where almost any two given genetic donors will have the "Old Blood" gene. The chances of the offspring breeding true are exceedingly high.
**But Moiraine's comment doesn't make any sense then. The old blood is split like a river (cosmopolitan cities; diversity of genes) isn't forming again. The Aiel are too numerous and too spread out. It's like saying the nation of Cairhien has the old blood because they are decended from people that lived during the Breaking. Sure, they are. But they've been mixing with people who are not Cairhienin for thousands of years, and you're saying the entire nation. Way too many people. **
The Aiel fit better than the Two Rivers folk actually. The Aiel are a closed society to a degree that few have ever seen. By custom and inclination, (they tend to kill or avoid any non-Aiel) there has been NO diluting of Aiel bloodlines with non-Aiel since the Breaking and probably before that. (The only known exception being Tigraine.) In their case, every single Aiel bears a bloodline that can be followed from father to grandfather all the way to the Breaking.
You are right that Cairhain cannot have the Old Blood. There is too much mixing with the rest of the people on that side of the Dragonwall. In fact that can be said of almost every one on that side. The Two Rivers is one of probably a very few exceptions to that statement.
In the case of the Aiel, the population size is a plus. To successfully breed for a trait, the population size doesn't have to be small. The only real requirement is that each member has the trait that is desired. A large population size is a bonus since it avoids the negatives of inbreeding.
**And that's the entire problem.
Ishamael was not trying to remove "Rand al'Thor" the bubble from the "Oversoul." He was trying to remove the entire soul from Rand's body. As he said, "I take your soul!"; not "I'll take your personality!"
If you wish to draw a parallel, Ishamael was trying to do to Rand what Machin Shin did to Trayal the Ogier or what the Dark One does to Grey Men (though that's a voluntary removal of a soul). He was trying to take his soul out of his body. Whether this would've killed him or not, debatable (I would say this form of it would have since Ishamael didn't show any inhibitions to killing Rand from then on and told him quite clearly "die Rand al'Thor" before hand).**
In this particular case, I think that's a non-point. Even assuming that Ishamael knows the difference between a soul with one personality and an "Oversoul", he isn't likely to dramatically proclaim, "I take your personality! Which, by the way, is a separate from your actual soul." It doesn't have the requisite ring and isn't nearly as impressive as "I take your soul!"
In any case, as learned as Ishamael is, I don't think that he would have the perspective necessary to understand the difference between a personality and a soul. Hence, he assumes his knowledge is truth and (being pompous and completely convinced of his infallibility) act in accord with his understanding. He states his (possibly misunderstood) truth as fact thus leading us and others who hear him to believe it. This doesn't mean he is correct.
We see the same thing from Aes Sedai with the Three Oaths. They assume their knowledge is truth and (being pompous and completely convinced of their infallibility) act in accord with their understanding.
18
haertchen: 2005-10-26
"In any case, as learned as Ishamael is, I don't think that he would have the perspective necessary to understand the difference between a personality and a soul. Hence, he assumes his knowledge is truth and (being pompous and completely convinced of his infallibility) act in accord with his understanding. He states his (possibly misunderstood) truth as fact thus leading us and others who hear him to believe it. This doesn't mean he is correct."
Um, I'm guessing that understanding the difference between a personality and a soul was fairly common during the age of legends. Graendel and Moghedien would certainly have understood it (see KoD for proof) and I would be astounded---simply astounded---if Ishamael hadn't picked up on that by this point. On the other hand, he was trying to impress, not be technically correct, so it's a non-issue. His exact statement is irrelevant to the discussion.
At any point, I seriously doubt that this theory is correct. The taint is my most likely candidate, although I emphatically do not subscribe to the barrier degradation theory (the mechanism is too specific for me to latch onto it). Just about everything unusual that has happened to Rand between tDR and FoH has been proposed as a mechanism for causing LTT, but the taint is known to cause insanity, giving it a huge leg-up over everything else.
19
Callandor: 2005-10-26
**Inbreeding is the mating of closely related people. I would say that inbreeding might occur in the Two Rivers, but the societal inhibition against incest (stronger in a small population) might prevent a lot.**
RJ himself has described the Two Rivers as an inbreeding population. We know it takes place there. Just look at how Perrin alone is related to people as cousins as "distant" relationships in Daven Ride and Watch Hill. Hence, why everyone from there with very rare exceptions are brown hair, brown eyes. Small population, and isolated.
**The Aiel fit better than the Two Rivers folk actually. The Aiel are a closed society to a degree that few have ever seen. By custom and inclination, (they tend to kill or avoid any non-Aiel) there has been NO diluting of Aiel bloodlines with non-Aiel since the Breaking and probably before that. (The only known exception being Tigraine.) In their case, every single Aiel bears a bloodline that can be followed from father to grandfather all the way to the Breaking.**
It's not just a link of father to father back to a certain time. Read again:
**TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 47 - More Tales of the Wheel
"The old blood," Moiraine said, "split out like a river breaking into a thousand times a thousand streams, but sometimes streams join together to make a river again. The old blood of Manetheren is strong and pure in almost all these young men. Can you doubt the strength of Manetheren's blood, Lord Agelmar?"**
The Aiel are too great a population for this to occur. You may have noticed, but a Two Rivers "army" is pathetic in comparison to the Aiel society. Hell, the entire Two Rivers is under half a clan of any Aiel society -- probably under a quarter.
You say that the Aiel are a closed society that few have seen -- yet they spread from the top of Aiel Waste to the bottom of it in their population. They're many times more numerous than the Two Rivers. Their isolated in the sense that Alaska is isolated from the US. They have far too many people for there to be even considered inbreeding going on.
The Two Rivers is a small, isolated, and inbreeding location. That is why the old blood is present.
**In the case of the Aiel, the population size is a plus. To successfully breed for a trait, the population size doesn't have to be small. The only real requirement is that each member has the trait that is desired. A large population size is a bonus since it avoids the negatives of inbreeding.**
It avoids inbreeding -- which doesn't give the old blood. The bloodlines are too spread out and do not reform into those rivers again. It's not the same as cultivating a trait like early growers of corn did -- look again at Moiraine's statements.
**In this particular case, I think that's a non-point. Even assuming that Ishamael knows the difference between a soul with one personality and an "Oversoul", he isn't likely to dramatically proclaim, "I take your personality! Which, by the way, is a separate from your actual soul." It doesn't have the requisite ring and isn't nearly as impressive as "I take your soul!"**
The "Oversoul" is a fiction you created.
1. We know that the soul carries the past lives on it. Like your chain, if you so wish.
2. We know these past lives are seperated by barriers.
3. Ishamael did not try to seperate these barriers he tried to remove Rand's entire soul.
You're saying he tried to take a link out of a chain, when he was trying to pull the entire chain out of the pool of water. Completely different situations.
**In any case, as learned as Ishamael is, I don't think that he would have the perspective necessary to understand the difference between a personality and a soul. Hence, he assumes his knowledge is truth and (being pompous and completely convinced of his infallibility) act in accord with his understanding. He states his (possibly misunderstood) truth as fact thus leading us and others who hear him to believe it. This doesn't mean he is correct.**
Or, he tried to remove Rand's soul, you know as the text shows, and simply said so as he did.
**His exact statement is irrelevant to the discussion.**
Uh, no, it's quite relevant. He says exactly what he was doing: removing Rand's soul. How is that just irrelevant?
