1
Tamyrlin: 2000-12-03
I think I remembering asking something similar and here is the problem. Ishamael brought the boys into T'A'R in the first book...so we don't know if the voice in Rand's head would have showed up before he went to T'A'R. The voices definitely showed up before he went into T'A'R in the flesh.
2
Daishan: 2002-11-18
Not true, Tamyrlin. Rand goes to TAR as soon as the end of book 3 when he follows Ishamael there. I think Brian may have something here. It would fit into the TAR-picture with some other things I read on this site, including the one that says TAR is like the opposite of balefire.
3
Tamyrlin: 2002-11-18
Okay...well, I said that two years ago...and he did go into T'A'R in the flesh at that time, but when did the voices start? Anyone have a reference for the first time Rand supposedly hears LTT? If it happened afterward, then yes, this would be an interesting idea to pursue.
4
Daishan: 2002-11-19
Another point: would it take more than one visit to TAR in the flesh to "break down the barriers" or would one be enough? If the latter, then wouldn't Egwene also hear voices? She went to TAR in the flesh when she goes to Salidar from the Aiel Waste... Can't remember the exact timeline though. Have to look up some things so I'll be back after I do that.
5
Tamyrlin: 2002-11-19
No, the taint is what is the catalyst for the breakdown. Egwene wouldn't experience it. Although, since other male channelers are experiencing the voices...it may not have anything to do with T'A'R. But, since Rand is a Hero, going there, adding on to it the taint's effects toward the madness, and his case might even be more severe. Some thoughts.
6
Daishan: 2002-11-20
Alright, I can "dig" that, but then what's the "great danger" of entering T'A'R in the flesh? If it's not breaking down the barriers, what is it? I'm also interested in the "opposite of balefire" part, but I was actually sort of leaning toward the impression that is had something to do with "losing a part of yourself". I even belief that it is mentioned somewhere...
7
pointyman: 2002-11-21
As far as the first occassion where we hear LTT... I don't think this is what we should be looking at, if we are to consider the TAR angle. It should be the first time he 'remembers' something about the AOL. The first occaision I have found is when Lanfear confronts him in the Stone.
"And you loved power!" he shouts at her.
Apart from the whole TAR aspect, I have often contemplated the nature of the 'trap' that was placed around Callandor during/after the breaking. This trap was designed so that only the hand of the Dragon could draw Callandor. How was this done? Is there some weave that was sensitive to the touch of only one specific soul? If not how did the Aes Sedai that set this weave distinguish between Rand's hand and any other male channeller/Forsaken/False Dragon? Were they just leaving it to chance that Rand would be the first person to figure out how to draw it? I am sure it states several times that callandor can only be drawn by the hand of 'the dragon'.
In my opinion, I think the only way they could reliably achieve this is to have some form of soul 'recognition'. This seems to be a strong pointer for the one soul theory, if true.
8
Daishan: 2002-12-01
Good reference, Pointyman. So, Tamyrlin, would you be satisfied with that? Rand goes to T'A'R in the flesh at the very end of book 3, and 'remembers' something from Lews' memories very early in book 4, with just days between I believe. Even if it's nothing else, it's an interesting occurence... And I agree that it's a very strong argument for the OneSouler if it all works out. We know from later books (I think book 4, 5 or 6; please help me out) that Rand goes to T'A'R on if not a frequent basis than at least a fairly regular one. And he also consistently starts remembering more things and later even 'speaks' with LTT. It would take some more serious research to place all occurrences in a logical timeline but it might be worthwile...
9
Callandor: 2002-12-13
If the Aiel dreamwalkers and Aes Sedai fear going into the world of dreams in the flesh so much that they would try to halt Perrin, other Aes Sedai, Egwnene, Rand, and others from going in if ONLY the taint started breaking the bonds? Yes they say you lose ones humanity, but can you give me a better genrealization of insanity?? And only the hand of the dragon weilding callandor is false. Only the hand of the dragon could REMOVE it from the Stone of Tear to fullfil the porphacey. As for the traps it couldnt be restricted to a soul because Dashiva goes to remove it to give it back to Rand. I'm guessing it was an advanced trick like Rand used to keep Asmodean cornered. A big box of spirit and fire so that if he left without knowning the weave instant frying. This might also support the Rands first talk thing with LTT because i would assume that in order for Rand to be bragging for the Forsaken to TRY to take callandor(TSR after he thrust the sword into the Heart). So he must of done an inverting of the weave. Interesting thing is that he couldnt repeat the process as of TFOH when Asmodean tried to teach him it. Dont know if any of this helps I seem to be babbling but maybe it will help someone puzzle something out.
10
Daishan: 2002-12-15
LOL to discuss this with "Callandor" :-)
I don't think that Rand inverted the weaves. Jahar Narishma is the one who goes back to get Callandor for Rand but he can see the weaves, obviously, since he can unravel them. I agree very much with you that going into T'A'R in the flesh by itself is dangerous, but Moghedien and Lanfear and all the other Forsaken do it a lot and I didn't see them going crazy. Yet. Well, they're crazy of course, just not insane.
Now I'M babbling, so I'll see you later.
11
pointyman: 2002-12-16
The traps set around Callandor were of Rand's own doing. It was placed there for'he who follows after' (Narishma). Rand did not then know who this was, so OF COURSE there was no 'soul recognition' in the trap he set. It was just a nasty little trap/trick for the unwary Forsaken. But, this does not change my opinion that the original trap on Callandor had to recognise the soul of the Dragon for Rand to draw it from the Stone.
12
Daishan: 2002-12-21
Actually, Pointyman, aren't the Dragons from Rhuidean exactly the same thing? If you weren't sure about the "soul recognition" with Callandor, those Dragons should be a dead give-away. How else would Rand ever be the first to receive both of them? I agree that it's a strong argument for the one-soulers.
13
Callandor: 2002-12-22
No one has EVER mentioned to my knowledge that LTT had 2 Dragons on his wrists.
14
Daishan: 2002-12-22
Not what I mean Callandor;
The Dragons of Rhuidean have to be a soul recognition system because nobody else got them up until now. A lot of people went in there already, and only got ONE Dragon if any (women don't get them, and neither do dead people). What I mean is; the ter'angreal had to have "known" it was Rand stepping through in order to give him the two Dragons.
That's what I mean about the soul-recognition part. Of course LTT didn't have those Dragons (at least to our knowledge) but he didn't have red hair either.
The Aes Sedai that built Rhuidean and the ter'angreal had to build in this "soul-recognition" thingy and if Rand and LTT were separate souls how could they set the trap for Rand? They could never have met him, right?
I think it much more likely that they set the trap for Lews since they had so much more to go by with him than with Rand.
Not watertight though, I agree .... :-)
15
Callandor: 2002-12-24
Whoa.... Just had a weird thought. What if only one Dragon was for Rand and Lews? Then you have 2 Dragons. Only thing is that Lews isnt Aiel. But couldn't the Ter Angreal get confused by one person having Aiel blood and another that doesnt. So the big question if this theory works is would the Ter Angreal recognize only the Aiel blood? I mean i dont think any other Aiel has had 2 souls, if that is the case with Rand, and has gone to Rhuidean. So just dunno.
16
Daishan: 2002-12-26
.... Just when I think I've figured something out someone else just turns it all inside out...
I'm afraid there are too many plausible explanations and there's too little evidence to go by... Judging from the last few posts that particular ter'angreal could be proof for both the one-soul and the two-soul theory and thus for neither...
17
Callandor: 2002-12-27
Well... I was partcally right.At FIRST, Rand didn't invert the weaves around or in Callandor.
But in Lord of Chaos, Chapter 32 Summoned in Haste on pages 636 and 637, Rand watched as Egwene was told the location of Salidar, he remarked about how he came back to Callandor after he learned how to invert his weaves. **Then he had changed the traps laid around the sa angreal so only he could see them.** He then even remarks about whoever takes it, Jahar Narishma, will follow after.
So Jahar Narishma was told by Rand what the weave was.
Half credit to Daishan and me :-).
18
Callandor: 2003-01-06
I'm not sure exactly if Rand heard LTT by the end of TFOH but when Lanfear and him are duking it out on the docks he thinks **He could end it, finish her. He could call down lightning, or wrap her in the fire she herself had used to kill...** [TFOH: 52, Choices, 631]. So clearly by the **she herself had used to kill** part Rand is remembering what Lanfear used in the AoL, unless someone else remembers a particular scene where Rand saw her kill someone with the power?
19
Daishan: 2003-01-06
Uh... I believe like ten seconds earlier she kills a LOT of people with fire on the docks. It's one of the reasons Rand made his "dome". :-)
20
Elder Haman: 2003-01-14
I had never considered the idea of the effect of entering the world of dreams in the flesh causing LTT to 'appear'in Rand's head. Someone made the point that Egwene hasn't had the same syptoms... or has she? Egwene has 'rediscovered' alot of Talents from the TofL... begining immediately after entering the World of Dreams in the flesh! Since Rand has entered in the flesh more often, it would follow that he would suffer worse symptoms. I don't know if I believe it, but it could be true.
21
Seeker: 2003-04-05
The boys never went to TAR in the flesh in book 1, Ishy dreamed them there. Here's the only problem. Unless there's been a lot of off-screen TAR usage. The night Egwene spent there in the flesh was longer than the few hours Rand did. So shouldn't she be going all wonky and hearing.... I dunno Some age of legends bank teller looping around in her brain. Please Please don't say this has something to do with her headaches... We'd have seen more evidence if that was true.
22
jason wolfbrother: 2003-04-06
When Rand fights Rahvin he is in TAR in the flesh. And when Egwene is given the 'map' to Salidar by Siuan and the Rebel Aes Sedai he is there in the flesh as well.
23
Anubis: 2003-04-07
you are all forgetting that rand cuts off asmodean from the dark one when he is out of the skimming plane. i dont know why rand sees the chords, there is enough to support (but not prove) a skimming plane connection. though clearly rand can find the chords in the real world under the right circumstances.
24
Callandor: 2003-04-08
Some people have accounted Rand seeing the cords in the real world and the skimming place as a Talent. However it is weird that Rand does see the cords in the real world. Someone mentioned that when a person channeled by Min, her viewings got cloudy, so they thought that channeling sort of almost takes the person out of the pattern for a little bit, and that maybe sa angreal usage takes them further out of the pattern and allows Rand to be able to see the cords on Asmo.
Im not sure if I believe it that much but just giving something to think on.
25
HunterofTrollocs: 2003-04-08
I believe he is able to 'see' the cords binding the forsaken to DO because of the first book when he saw them on Aginor, then on Ishy / Balzamon. He just knows that they have to be there, and strikes where he thinks they might be. One question is, how did he see them to begin with. And does this have anything to do with the origanal topic?
26
Tamyrlin: 2003-04-12
Actually, Rand does not see them in the real world. He is aware that they exist because he has seen them in T'A'R, and then he is able to "guestimate" as to where they would be, then using a sword/cut of spirit he is able to sever them in the real world.
27
nowhere man: 2003-05-06
Actually, Rand sees the cords on Asmodean while SKIMMING after him. Also, his fight at the end of EotW could have been in that same place -- a "dream of a dream", as it is described once. The skimming dimension is distinctly different from and more alien than T'A'R. I don't think we've seen other channelers in the skimming area since Asmodean, but it might simply be a property of that place that anyone holding the OP or TP displays cords.
28
Tamyrlin: 2003-05-07
Actually, the Skimming place is part of the Unseen World. Just like the GOI (Gap of Infinity) is also part of the Unseen World. The entire Unseen World encapsulates many dimensions that are all connected. The fact that Rand can see the Black Cords in the Skimming place is proof that the Skimming place is part of the Unseen World since Rand never "sees" the Cords in the Real World. We did a study of T'A'R a few months back and I would encourage everyone to read it.
http://www.theoryland.com/studies.php?page=unseenworld
29
rubbernilly: 2003-05-07
Just to clarify something here, guys.
The "traps" around Callandor that were originally mentioned in this thread were not the traps that Rand set. I think you misunderstood the person who wrote that. They were talking about the AS in the AOL who protected Callandor so that only Rand could draw it.
It doesn't matter about wielding it, that has to do with traps that Rand wove himself. The AS in the AoL, however, had to have a way to distinguish that it would be the Dragon Reborn (only) who would be able to draw it.
Those were the traps that were initially being discussed.
30
nowhere man: 2003-05-08
Maybe I should post this as a new theory, but it's more of a question.
I was reading the study of the Unseen World, and came across something that doesn't seem to make sense. You say that the Ways are part of the Skimming space, which seems quite reasonable to me. However, the third age Aes Sedai never remembered Skimming as a lost Talent, where they did remember lots of other things that no one has been able to do (officially) for a very long time, such as Traveling, Compulsion, the making of Ter'Angreal, Balefire, etc. It seems that Skimming was either an invention of the Forsaken, or something the AS managed to forget about. I don't like the latter case, since the AS manage to remember so many other things, but I suppose it is possible. The former case would seem to preclude the AoL AS from building the Ways in the Skimming space, as they were not aware of it.
Thoughts?
31
Tamyrlin: 2003-05-08
My response would be that T'A'R itself was not really in the consciousness of the Aes Sedai. There have been very few dreamers, so their awareness is or was close to nil. Skimming really isn't a talent. It is a means of traveling that both Egwene and Rand have figured out. Similar to the Ways and actually entering the T'A'R section of the Unseen World, entering the Skimming Space is opening a door into a dimension of the Unseen World. Why it was relatively unknown (since some do know about it now, remember it took Egwene to remind them that T'A'R could be accessed and used)I don't really know. General lack of investigation, apathy?
32
Dorindha: 2003-05-08
I think it's fairly likely that skimming just got lumped together with traveling in the collective memory, so no one knew they needed to remember it.
33
solomonrex: 2003-05-08
I think the reason that skimming was unknown is that it is so clearly inferior to traveling. Apparently Rand figured it out before traveling because of the connection to TAR, whereas the AS of the AOL always knew how to travel. They always had a more advanced way to travel than skimming.
34
nowhere man: 2003-05-08
Actually, IIRC, both Rand and the SAS picked up Skimming through Asmodean and Moghedein, respectively. And I wouldn't say skimming is inferior to traveling; the two are very complementary in that one requires a source and the other a destination. With the two of them, you can go anywhere in the world quickly. If skimming was something the AoL AS didn't have, it would have been a significant advantage in terms of mobility for the dark forces in the war of power.
35
rubbernilly: 2003-05-09
We know that in the AoL there were Standing Flows that allowed even non-Channelers to use OP-operated ter'angreal devices.
We also know from CoT that channeling on a particular piece of ground let you learn that ground much more quickly for the purposes of Traveling.
Putting these two ideas together, it might be possible that these Standing Flows acted much the same way as channeling did as far as learning the ground you wished to travel from. With the Standing Flows in place, an AoL AS would almost immediately know any ground that they were standing on, and be able to Travel from it. If that were the case, they would not need to Skim (instead of Travel) nearly as often as modern day channelers do.
And, the SAS did learn Skimming, too. Remember, they left their dovecotes in Salidar, and every day sisters would Skim to Salidar (since they didn't know the ground that they were on), collect their messages, and then Travel back using their knowledge of the Salidar grounds.
36
Rand-althor: 2003-05-24
I believe the first direct LTT reference, is in TFOH, after the attack on the Aeil camp, where he says something like "Sammuael tried this before in ......" I forget what area he says, but the other reference ("And you loved power") is the type of thing that Rand could guess at, and may have just come out in fury, and this is the first thing that can be directly attributed to LTT
37
Ashaman Ragsdale: 2003-07-17
I don't think Rand entering TAR is what is causing LTT to talk to him... My reasoning is, shortly after Cadsuane enters the picture (ACOS) she asks Rand if he has started to hear voices, and that most male channlers begain to. Or something like that, I don't have my books! Tear this apart!!!!!!!!
