Tamyrlin: 2002-11-16

Exactly. As far as we know, each birth is a new start. Why should we assume that the madness is somehow attached to the soul. Lews Therin died so long ago, why, if reborn, would he be "insane" as we see him displayed? This is why I feel that the voice in Rand's head isn't Lews. It is a mental disorder that is caused by the taint, as Cadsuane put it, she asked if Rand heard voices and did they tell him what to do. The experience Rand is having is consistent with the experience other male channelers have had that Cadsuane has studied. But, unfortunately, even though the taint is cleaned, the effects will atleast remain in those that have already gotten "sick".
As to possible ideas or alternatives. The taint is or was created by the DO. The voices make male channelers go mad (as Lews Therin did because of the voices during the Breaking, evidenced in the Prologue to TEoTW). So why shouldn't we assume that the voices, and madness are tied to the DO? That would be my take. Thanks for submitting that.

Eilonwy: 2002-11-17

What Ishy actually says is: "It's a pity that one of your Sisters is not here. I was never very skilled at Healing, and I follow a different power now. But even one of them could only give you a few lucid minutes, if you did not destroy her first. What I can do will serve as well, for my purposes. But, I fear Shai'tan's healing is different from the sort you know." I can see no mention of permanence. However, I would like to think that in death he would be granted his sanity once more. Unfortunately, though we know that men who channel go mad, we don't know if Rand is special, being the Dragon, and gets to hear LTT as a sort of guide, or if he's truly mad. If he is mad, then it came on quicker than I would have thought. We may never know. Jordan means to leave some questions unanswered when the series ends.

Therilon: 2002-11-18

Tamrylin, in that case, how would the taint give Rand info about Ilyena? I do not think that it was mentioned other than by Lanfear once or twice, and even then, it was offhand, and it seemed that Rand would not know how Ilenya died other than Lews Therin killed her. I believe that the taint is not causing any voices at all in Rand (he seems to be holding on better that the rest of the channelers) and that somehow Lews Therin's soul seperated at the death of his body and somehow is in Rand's body now.

Therilon: 2002-11-18

Sorry, I forgot this as I was writing the other post.

Brigitte does have memories of past lives. She said in TSR that they are like a well read book, they get fainter as more lives happen. And, Brigitte does have knowledge of the old tounge (COS) and the age of legends.

Tamyrlin: 2002-11-18

Ilyena is part of his soul's memories (just as Birgitte mentions, but she also points out that she doesn't remember those things when she is born normally, but this thing Moghedien did allowed her to retain that knowledge, but even that she says is fading), the madness gives a voice, like skitzo or multiple personality disorder, it all is occurring in his brain, he talks to himself, just like most that have the madness talk to themselves. He has access to the information through the taint's effects. Hence, why they say male channelers go mad.

Therilon: 2002-11-19

Touche. Wasn't Birgitte torn out of Tel'Aran'Rhiod when the battle happened, so that Elayne could heal her? And, How would the taint break down the soul's barriers? That might happen, but, in that case why doesn't some of the insane Asha'man know obscure facts about previous lives. On the message boards a quote was posted (sorry, I forget where) about souls being recycled. Wouldn't all the Male channelers spout gibberish about dueling and Clora trees etc?

Also, I think that his voices are very different from the voices that other channelers hear. If the voice was a result of the taint, then how would it have given Rand infomation about weaves and so on? I am in the two soul camp. Isn't it a logical end that Lews Therin's soul somehow was pushed into Rand's body?

What if Rand is just an 'ordinary' sheepherd that can channel? The soul of Lews could have split out of his (Lew's) body and found a home in Rand's body. Rand can be the person of prophecy, but he is a vessel for Lews.

Birgitte's memories are fading because she is growing accustomed to life on the world. She is almost reborn on the world.

The taint could be attacted to Lew's soul as it is in Rand's body now. Lews rants as a result of the taint.

Tamyrlin: 2002-11-19

Right, Birgitte was torn out...which is why we can't use her as an example of what someone can remember about their past because her example is an anomaly. But we can use her as an example of when you are reborn...you are the same exact soul in a different life. Birgitte is actually the biggest proof for the one-soulers. She is a Hero reborn, just like Lews Therin. Birgitte tells us that she has lived various lives, while she was in them should couldn't remember until she got back to T'A'R where she can remember them all. Rand is the same. He is just another life that the soul of Lews Therin is living. The fact that Rand can remember things has to do with channeling and the taint, otherwise like Birgitte, he shouldn't be able to remember a thing, you could even say that the T'A'R and his trips there in the flesh helped to start breaking down the walls between his soul and the life he grew up in this time around.



Now you have to consider that we don't get point of view from the other male channelers who are going mad, but Perrin smells them and we get a bunch of comments that it looks like a handful are talking to themselves. Rand is actually Lews Therin reborn, we don't know who these others were previously, what Ages they were born in, and what vocations they had. Did all of them have previous incarnations that involved chora trees and the Breaking...probably not all of them, just those at the end of that Age. That is the problem, we don't have their point of view, and we don't know who they are. But we certainly know that they are exhibiting the same behavior as Rand exhibits when people see him talking and laughing to himself.



:)



Fun discussion.

onemorereader: 2002-11-26

If the reason Brigitte remembers her past lives - even in a fading way - is because she was ripped out (i.e. the body she has now is the one she had in TAR), perhaps this is why Rand is remembering his past life of LTT.

-Rand walks the Dream in the flesh

-the Aiel Dreamwalkers (sounds like a basketball team) warned that there are grave penalties to walking the Dream in the flesh.

Perhaps the penalty is that the barriers between the lives a soul has lived are worn thin when a person is physically in TAR. TAR is, after all, the one place where all the possible worlds meet.

Just a thought.

(Rand's head is getting to be like those VW Bugs where 30 clowns all get out of it.)

Drekan: 2002-12-02

Therilon said

What if Rand is just an 'ordinary' shepherder that can channel? The soul of Lews could have split out of his (Lew's) body and found a home in Rand's body. Rand can be the person of prophecy, but he is a vessel for Lews.

Yet Rand was fulfilling prophecies before he heard any voices (such as taking the Stone and using the EotW) If he was just 'a shepherder that could channel' wouldn't it make sense that he couldnt fulfill any of the dragons prophecies until he had the dragons souls?

delboy: 2002-12-04

Wasnt there a side line to this problem though when Rand was wondering if he was going mad or if LTT was actually real, and then Min had a vision( help me out here, no access to books at moment). I seem to recall something about "two people, fading into one", and then "tell Cadsuane he's really there"

Dosen't this support the case that Rand is a special case and can't be compared to the other ASha'man?

Therilon: 2002-12-11

Drekan, I meant that Rand is the prophecied DR, but when he was born, somehow Lews' soul was in Rands body. Only when he began to channel was Lews able to breach the gap between the souls.

strouss: 2002-12-20

Is it possible that the taint on Saidin allows male channelers to hear the voices of their last life? Perhaps the person does not actually go crazy, only that their previous person (terrible terminology, but I hope you get the idea) is crazy from when saidin was tainted. As the previous person gains more control over the body, they are able to inflict more damage and do more crazy things without the restrictions of the sane counterpart.

Also, since LTT was healed, Rand may not be a prime example of what happens to male channelers and how they go crazy.

It's been a while since I've read the series (since the last book release), so I might be missing information.

der morat raken xander: 2002-12-21

My theory is not that dissimilar than strouss'. Personally I think the taint divides the personas from past lives of the male channeler soul into separate “identities”, having a detrimental affect on the channeler psyche. The longer they are exposed to the taint, the more the voices develop and multiply. It's amazing Rand has gotten this far with the kinslayer's memories, let alone a insane voice who thinks its LTT, the emotions of four women (one of which he doesn't want there), and now this second voice and images, all in that half Aiel head of his.

Callandor: 2002-12-22

Ok... I'm almost for sure I'm missing something HUGE here but when did everyone think that LTT is a Hero of the Horn? He is identified by Hawkwing in TGH but does that really mean hes a Hero of the Horn? Plus I'm not sure channelers can be tied to the Horn, we haven't seen one yet.

Tamyrlin: 2002-12-22

These following passages make it obvious that Lews Therin Telamon is a Hero of the Horn.

TITLE: Great Hunt

CHAPTER: 47 - The Grave Is No Bar to My Call

"To his surprise, several of the small host behind Artur Hawkwing chuckled, and Birgitte, testing her bowstring, laughed. "You always choose women who cause you trouble, Lews Therin." It had a fond sound, as between old friends."

TITLE: Great Hunt

CHAPTER: 47 - The Grave Is No Bar to My Call

"Justice shone like a mirror in Artur Hawkwing's gauntleted fist. "I have fought by your side times beyond number, Lews Therin, and faced you as many more. The Wheel spins us out for its purposes, not ours, to serve the Pattern. I know you, if you do not know yourself."

Callandor: 2002-12-22

I figured I was just missing a simple connection. Thanks Tamyrlin. :-)

kinjimomoqwert: 2003-01-08

I don't think that going into T'A'R in the flesh would break down the barrier between past lifes for one reason. The Forsaken go into the dream in the flesh, but we have had some of the Forsaken's POVs and they don't have any voices in their head.

pointyman: 2003-01-09

I agree, I don't like the theories that the barriers have been broken down due to either TAR or the taint. Your point about the forsaken is a good one, although I suppose it could be argued that the taint and TAR together did this. But I don't think so.

I'll just hammer on back to my soul recognition thingy from the trap on Callandor, which I think may have had something to do with the barriers being broken down. Now we know he has only one soul, I think that a form of recognition within the trap is extremely likely, as Rand definitely has the same soul as the Dragon, but with a different personality/incarnation.

Daishan: 2003-01-09

I believe the common assumption is that it is the combination of the taint effects and going to T'A'R in the flesh that causes the barrier-breaking.

I do have a sidenote to place with this though; the Aiel Wise Ones claim it is dangerous to go to T'A'R in the flesh because you "lose part of yourself". This, in my view, could very well be the barrier-breaking effect. So my question is; what has the taint to do with it then? The Wise Ones speak as though it's dangerous for EVERYONE to enter T'A'R like that; not just for tainted men.

I propose that it has something to do with the Dark One. There have been many references about the Dark One being able to touch the World of Dreams and to talk to someone in their dreams. Also, the infamous "black wires" that connect the Forsaken to the Dark One, are only visible in T'A'R. So perhaps if you're not careful, the Dark One can directly touch you when you're in T'A'R in the flesh...

Daishan: 2003-01-09

By the way, for some good documentation, you might find it helpful to read Goldeneyes' "Lews Therin Soul Debate" in the "Chronicles" section of this site (that is; if you haven't read it yet of course). Almost every for -and against is named there and the whole discussion is laid out clearly.

Daishan: 2003-01-09

Pointyman, could you elaborate on the soul-recognition having to do with the barrier-breaking? I'm not sure what you mean... I totally agree with you on the soul-recognition but did you also follow the other thread labeled "Rand, LTT, Birgitte"? Callandor came up with some interesting ideas there. By the way the two posts above were meant for kinjimomoqwert; your reply wasn't there yet when I posted.

lol... Judging from these three posts I could very well sustain a thread all by myself :-)

sotrips: 2003-01-09

I feel a little differently about the voice in Rand's head. I think Rand is somewhat of a host. I dont know if anyone has ever read David Eddings, but in his books the main good and evil character were more like pawns chosen by the Light and Dark and thus called Child of Light Child of Dark. They had been meeting since almost the beginning of time (kind of like RJ's world). They had pawns fight instead since the collission of the Light and Darkness fighting would destroy the universe. They just said I will pick my champion you choose yours and we will go by who wins. So this voice in Rands head may be the voice of the Light and the DO may be the pawn of the Dark. Make sense? This would explain why it can help Rand and talk to him. It can also explain why the other False Dragons heard the voice too. Maybe as the people claimed they were the Dragon the voice sought them out to "investigate" if the person was the actual Dragon that was going to fight Tarmon Gaidon.

Pi: 2003-01-10

On 12/22/02 Tamyrlin writes:

CHAPTER: 47 - The Grave Is No Bar to My Call

"To his surprise, several of the small host behind Artur Hawkwing chuckled, and Birgitte, testing her bowstring, laughed. "You always choose women who cause you trouble, Lews Therin." It had a fond sound, as between old friends."

TITLE: Great Hunt

CHAPTER: 47 - The Grave Is No Bar to My Call

"Justice shone like a mirror in Artur Hawkwing's gauntleted fist. "I have fought by your side times beyond number, Lews Therin, and faced you as many more. The Wheel spins us out for its purposes, not ours, to serve the Pattern. I know you, if you do not know yourself."

Doesn't the fact that Hawking, and Briggett (pre-being ripped out of TAR) themselves recognize LTT in Rand make a VERY strong case that Rand isn't going mad. Now as to which theory you buy into (1, 1.5, or 2 souls) that's another story. But, I think this says that LTT is in there some where, and not as a result of madness because how would either of them (Briggett or Hawking) recognize a split personality that Rand is either just barely aware of or completely unaware of? No, I think that LTT is definately in there, and not as a result of madness.

Gird: 2003-01-10

This is a response/question for Tamyrlin.

Since Hawkwing is a hero of the horn and Birgitte states that they reside in the Dream between lives and callings of the horn. But what I wonder is this.

Heroes of the horn have been reborn at counless times. Is it not possible that Hawkwing have been reborn as well? If he has then he may have fought alongside the dragon before. The dragon consists of the same soul all ages through, may it not be so that the soul is drawn to the same kind of women? In that case there is nothing odd with Hawkwing and the other heroes recognizing the soul of LTT. The heroes have fought alongside eachother on different occasions and probably alongside the dragon so it is no wonder that they have become friends.

I know my arguments doesn't prove your claim that LTT is a member of the Heroes of the Horn but it gives another point of view.

Tamyrlin: 2003-01-10

To Pi, Jordan at a recent signing said that Rand was one soul with two personalities. The heroes recognized the soul, not the personality. They could tell Rand's soul was the soul of the Hero Lews Therin who had been reborn as Rand. Actually, it would appear from other answers RJ gave that Rand will begin to tap into additional personalities of previous incarnations of his soul...

Tamyrlin: 2003-01-10

Gird, I agree with that. I think those comments by the two heroes make it quite obvious about the nature of reborn heroes. Everyone wants to believe there are two souls so they can rationalize the die and live quotes.

Daishan: 2003-01-10

I am a one-souler myself, but I have some problems with Min's viewing of two men merging into one, only she wasn't certain which one would remain... Tamyrlin, as one-souler advocate, do you have a good explanation for that one?

Tamyrlin: 2003-01-10

Good question. I would say from Jordan's recent comments that it means that Min sees that there are two personalities that eventually will merge into one, which will win or lose or how they will come together is anyone's guess.

Daishan: 2003-01-10

Possibly...

But that would actually mean two personalities... Was that really what RJ said? That would really mean a "mad" Rand and I was much more in favour of the "barrier-breaking" position. How else could Rand know about all those weaves and stuff? And his knowledge about the AoL? He came up with Tel Janin and the Gates of Paaran Disen all by himself, for one thing. How would that fit in to the "Rand is mad" position? ...

Callandor: 2003-01-10

Just had a thought.... What if the souls reborn are like the trunk of a tree?

Ok, the souls start out as the trunk of the tree. Then everytime they are reborn they get a branch. Like bridgette said, everytime she returns to the TAR she can remember all of her lifes like volumes of books. But she couldnt remember them while she was reborn.

So what if Rand is the first hero to actually be able to delve into those books of past lives? That would explain LTT talking to him and how he can rediscover many things.

Big question though: why cant he hear/remember things from other Dragons before or after himself or LTT?

Well, Bridgette said when she first came out of the TAR from being ripped out by Moggy, that she could remember things from up till a certain point, I think it was the founding of the White Tower but it could easily be something else. Well thats about what 2700-3000 years ago? Now since LTT is a hero of the horn he gets spun out. I think that it just takes A LONG time for him to be spun out. So then LTT would remember those dragons from previous ages but they would have deminished over time.

Thoughts?

Daishan: 2003-01-11

Well there is this mysterious quote of Lews Therin saying to Rand something like "you, me, and the other one", supposedly implying that there is another person in Rand's head (not Alanna or any other member of his mental harem). Hopefully someone else will remember the exact location more clearly, or the words, but I followed a discussion a little while ago regarding this. The idea was that this "third person" was actually Lews' previous incarnation. So that would fit in nicely with your theory, right?

I do have to say, everytime we're "stuck", you come up with some new problem or idea :-)

Callandor: 2003-01-11

But I actually have a curious thought that the **other one** might actually have been in a previous Dragon (duh), but in Lews head back in the AoL and has just been in his head. Because I dont think that Rand has heard anything from the **other one**. However he may later never know.

Daishan: 2003-01-12

You mean Lews is talking from his memories of his own life, right? Not from his experiences in Rand's head... Sounds very plausible to me. But Lews doesn't always sound mad. He has come up with useful information for Rand before. Hopefully we can find some more quotes about the "other one" but I seem to remember that's the only one.

Callandor: 2003-01-12

Yes Lews has come up with useful information, but come on he is CLEARLY nuts. Wanting to die forever? Telling Rand not to trust any channeler then saying that anybody who doesn't trust someone is as good as dead?

Plus, I can't remember what book it was in, but there was a reference to a battle commander in Saldaea, I think, and he was TOTALLY nuts. Claimed the trees were going to come alive and attack them. He had his men cut them all down and then bury them. But he NEVER lost a battle.

Darren: 2003-01-12

The question remains as to whether LTT was talking to "the other" BEFORE the taint was laid on saidin, or only after.

Daishan: 2003-01-13

That is indeed the question, but how are we ever going to find out? There are way too little quotes. RAFO I guess, if we're lucky. About that Saldaean quote; that's in LoC, after Taim gives Rand the seal and Rand freaks out. Bashere says to Rand that men will follow anyone as long as he wins.

Darren: 2003-01-13

Another question is that well, it seems to be common consensus here that the Voice speaking at the end of EoTW in the first battle between Rand and Ishamael is that of the Creator.

Yet the "other" seems to speak in CoT, indicating that "the Creator had made the world and then left humankind to make of it what they would, a heaven or the Pit of Doom by their choosing. The Creator had made many worlds, watched each flower or die, and gone on to make endless worlds beyond. A gardener did not weep for each blossom that fell." This creates a quandary.

Thannon: 2003-01-16

I'm in favor of the one soul multiple personalities myself, but i think that the taint in Saidin was in essence a bridge between these past lives. There's my two cents worth. Oh, and the quote about "The Other" went aomething along the lines of, We are not builders you or I or the other one but rather destroyers. I thought I could build once.(various rambelings of Ilyana, and how he should burn forevev etc,etc...)

Waalex: 2003-01-19

Sorry for backtracking, but when Ishy said his healing was permanent, he might have tied Lews Therin to the Dark One?

Exocrist: 2003-01-20

This is backtracking a little bit up to callandor's post up there, but i think that the heroes of the horn are all the ta'veren. therefore meaning that LTT is a hero, just that he was spun out. i also think that the stronger ta'veren you are, the longer it takes for you to be respun. for instance, LTT gets spun out once per age, and Hawkwing gets maybe one or two. other "weaker" ta'veren such as mat get spun out a lot of times each age.

Tigraine: 2003-01-21

Umm... the Wheel spins out the Heroes as they are needed in the world, just as it does ta'veren. It's doubtfull that ta'veren strength changes anything. If the Pattern needs a boost, it will spin out a ta'veren. If not, it won't. That's the impression that I've had from Jordan's answers to FAQ questions about ta'veren in the past, anyway...

Elder Haman: 2003-01-21

I am a "real one-souler" (at least so far as I understand the term), and I don't think the taint is nessecary to explain it.

This was all forshadowed in TEOTW when Mat starts talking in the old tounge, and someone (I think it was Perrin) makes a comment to the effect that maybe Mat is an old king come back. Thom becomes quite sharp and tells them not to joke about such things because the dead have come back and lived through another, (or something like that... *sigh* I guess I'll have to go read it again).

Maybe this 'dead guy in my head' thing isn't as rare as we think.

randye: 2003-01-22

I've just read most of the posts, and I'm still sitting on the fence in regard to the number of souls debate. If though there is only one "soul" and that being LTT then Rand does not have his own..how did he function all these years b4 his ability to channel came out? Does the soul have a relationship to the body?? or the brain...because Rand can obviously think for himself but does not have a soul...is that possible for Rand as an individual?? LTT's soul may be in him...but oviously does not control Rand ...but obviously there is a presence there. or Rand cannot really channel...but merely utilizes the talent from LTT and rand is in actual fact a plain shepherd. Who knows..I have more ideas on this i will post them at a later dat...I'm actually at work.....but please punch holes in my theory .

Elder Haman: 2003-01-22

That's the debate randye. I at least am arguing that LTT and Rand are the same person/soul. RJ says they have the same soul but different personalities. This makes sense if you consider that enviroment has effects on personality as well as inborn traits. LTT and Rand share several traits, but Rand is a different personality from LTT because LTT grew-up in the AofL and Rand didn't. When LTT was reborn as Rand he could not access any of his memories from his previous life as LTT. A veil was placed over his mind so he could not remember anything before birth, (according to Brigette this happened to her too, in previous re-births). Something has happend later to tear this veil and now Rand is struggling with how to assimilate these memories of his previous life as LTT. Rand's solution has been to seperate the memories into two personalities- Rand and LTT, who sometimes talk to each other in his head. Eventually (according to Min) these two personalities will merge, maybe with one of them the dominate personality.

threnkrethy: 2003-01-22

Perhaps b/c of how strong a ta'veren rand is, he drew lews therin and "the other one" to him. just a thought.

about the spinning weaker ta'veren out faster then stronger ones: perhaps, if they are spun out by need, the wheel spins out one of nessesary strength, such that birgite would come around more then the dragon b/c she can take care of smaller things, but there are only 2 times the dragon is needed, to seal and reseal the dragon.

also side note. artur hawkwing said that he had fought with and against the dragon. the only 2 things i can see that that could mean are that the horn was sounded by the shadow, or that the shadow has corrupted the dragon in the past. and if the second then how could the dragon be a hero of the horn

Anubis: 2003-01-22

I think i know why the "veil" that you mention was torn. I recall one of the chosen, or several of them, mentioning that they had never heard of a specific man being reborn according to prophesy. I think that normally it is not so much a rebirth, as it is just the same thread being reused. It is a completely new life, with no memories or experiances, but it is the same thread or soul. Eventually, maybe upon death, doesnt really matter, but some can recognize those bound to the wheel. Brigit says that moggy recognized her for who she was, even though she herself did not.

Now, rand is LEWS THERIN reborn. Specific man. It sould stand to reason that while he would have his own individualism, he would eventually recall parts, and maybe his whole past life. Maybe rand will eventually come to terms with the fact that he is lews therin AND rand althor and get slightly less insane.

Callandor: 2003-01-22

The big white book says that Ta'veren are spun out when the pattern is getting astray in its course. So the farther off the pattern is the more numerous or more powerful the Ta'veren are produced. But the pattern can still change due to the Ta'verens actions just that the pattern tries to get the same conclusion or something. Its all confusing because the pattern can change, I think the big book says that somewhere although I can easily be mistaken, and yet the pattern tries to maintain a strict end and whenever it doubts that it will reach that end it spins out a Ta'veren.

Side note: I dont think Bridgette is a Ta'veren. And she said this is the first time that she EVER, in all her times being reborn, rememebers that she is Bridgette Silverbow.

lewstherin80: 2003-01-22

I just want to put an ends to one belief that most people have. When Lews Therin talks about himself as a destroyer, him Rand and the other he is not talking about a third person in his head. He is talking about Lan. This is what he says "We are alike in many ways, you and I. There is a darkness in us. Darkness, pain, death. They radiate from us." Lews Therin is referring to Lan.

Darren: 2003-01-23

And Lews Therin knows Lan pretty well?

And for that matter, how is Lan a destroyer?

lewstherin80: 2003-01-25

The quote that I refer to comes from The Fires of Heaven after Moraine disappears into the doorway with Lanfear. Rand stops Lan and speaks with him and what I quoted is what Lan says to Rand. We all know that Lews Therin has access to Rand's memory so obviously he does know him well. As well as Rand.

Seo: 2003-01-28

The last month i've been reading the books again and at this moment i'm halfway of part 10. i've got some thoughts about the other person(s) in rands head.(all based on facts of books 1-9)

while in SL rand meets another guy, one who looks the same yet older. At the moment rand and the guy channel, there seams to be a resonnance of some kind. perhaps the persons are something like "2 parts of the same coin"? i think this person is actually LTT.

padan fain got himself a new personality when he stole the dagger of SL from mat. himself mixed with the evil of SL growing into something the DO cant control. padan fain has cut rand in his side. i think it is possible that the evil in his wound is responsible for creating the third personality in rand which is a mix of SL-evil and rand. most persons die when they are cut that way but because of the healing the evil doesnt get to kill but to grow another person like fain.

the dying of which the dragon is suppose to do, with rand splitting up in Shadar Logoth. suppose rands splits in 2 seperate persons like in SL. the second person has the evil of SL in him while the first is a mix of LTT and rand (or the one which emerges from that battle). which is a counterpart of the DO evil. perhaps they are to fight each other as the wound in rands side does (mentioned by the ashaman who sealed the wound after padan cut him). Also, after cleaning the male part of the true source the taint and SL counterpart eachother (SL is gone). this way, rand doesnt have to die at all, but a split off of the dragon reborn is to die at TG.

any thoughts?

jason wolfbrother: 2003-01-28

The mysterious person that helps Rand in Shadar Logoth is none other than Moridin using the True Power.

mhael777: 2003-01-30

How about this. If, lets suppose, the voices inside Rand's head are caesed by the taint, could the voices be in fact the Dark One directly touching and influencing Rand through the taint? The dark one possibly could be speaking to Rand directly through the taint and disquising the voice as a manifestation of Lews.

This being said I am very aware that "Lews" has helped Rand on a couple occasions. But old Darkie himself want's the lord of chaos to rule. In fact could he be using the voice to gradualy bring him to "the Dark side? Personaly I have no clue, but it's sort of interesting anyways.

Markus: 2003-01-30

I agree more along the lines of Elder Haman.

Even though memories are supressed when someone is reborn, apparently not all of them are, and it seems to vary with each person. Mat more so than others, even before his trip to finnland. Perrin, who i beleive is someone reborn himself, seems to have certain things almost remind him of something every now and then, but he can't name what. I would name examples but they've been hard to find. Rand also displays the same thing in early books, more so than Perrin and not as much so as Mat. In the early books, events jog his memory into remembering weaves, or events, but it is not in the form of someone telling him, just his own memories being uncovered again.

That being said, i think its important to understand how train of thought works. most people, not including during adolesence and some people with a certain part of their brain damaged. think in the form of words. Even as you read this you can probably almost hear your voice talk out loud in your head. Mentaly insane people, hear voices different from their own, who tell them to do things they normaly wouldn't. It serves to reason, that if someone had memories of someone with a personality vastly different from their own, and was a touch insane, these memories would have their own voice in their mine along with their own.

That is why i beleave Rand has multiple personality syndrome. I may be wrong, but i think it would be passing up too juicy of a plot twist for RJ to have Rand be totaly untouched by the taint.

Lewin: 2003-02-02

I do believe the voice in Rand's head is truly LTT. You mention that ordinary people and heroes like Brigitte, who also have reincarnated thousands of times doesn't remember anything from the past, but also remember that they are no Dragon reborn. Who says that it has to be same for the Dragon Reborn as for averyone else?

And i don't think it's a reult of the DO's taint on saidar since the voice have been helping him from time to time, and he shouted back at it to shut up, it actually shut up. I can't believe the madness-voices from the time of madness shut up like that just because you shouted at it a little....

StanLee: 2003-03-11

Here's what I think. I think that Rand does have personalities in him, but I think that he has more than two. I think that slowly he will have ALL the Dragon, ever, in his head. Egwene had a "dream" once that showed Rand with a bunch of faces swirling around him and he reached out and took one, but she didn't see which one. I think that in order to fully re-seal the Prison on the dark one, Rand must have ALL his previous knowledge and experiences in him. he must be at the absolute TOP of his game. I think that these voices are just all of the distinct and unique lifetimes regenerating. Kinda like when he fought the Mirror people in Tear. He fought them and only got hurt, but when he embraced them he grew stronger. I think he has to embrace and accept fully each of the "faces" and eventually he will become even stronger. Strong enough to challenge the Dark One himself. I think when Rand reaches for the source these days that ALL of his emerging personalities are instinctively reaching for the source at the same time and he has to fight them like he did with LTT in Book 7. Eventually he will have to permenantly defeat them all or one of them will defeat him. Then there "will be only one" to face the Dark One, and that One will be THE DRAGON in all his glory.

Callandor: 2003-03-12

Dont have time for that with 2 or 3 books left at most. I think Rand has 2 personalities, but I am leaning toward the 3rd person being Ishamael since LTT is shocked by the view to. But I am not for certain.

StanLee: 2003-03-12

ok, this reply is to a comment that Daishan made a while ago. He said that the "black wires" that are on the foresaken are only visible in TAR. Except how is it that Rand was able to see and cut them on Asmodean? He was in Rhuidean, not TAR. And everyone just takes it for granted that Rand was in TAR at the end of book one, but that's not necessarily true. all the forsaken know Mirror of Mists, and how to create illusions with the power. It could just as easily been in an Inn somewhere. TAR is only useful as a Barrier breaking tool if you want to look at all the CURRENT worlds. It is constantly shifting with the present, and anything from the past or that isn't permenant disappears. So why would it link to past ages, or yesterday even? Just a side bar.

solomonrex: 2003-03-13

I know Jordan explained LTT's voice in Rand's head as a second personality, but it's a personality with unique memories of another life and the ability to steal the one power from Rand when Rand tries to channel. So this second 'personality' has some real power. So the question becomes, if LTT seized the One Power, could he do something with it that Rand doesn't want him to? Rand still feels ill when he grabs the OP, and I think these things are related. From the beginning, Rand knew things when channeling that he shouldn't- early on, that's how he killed each of the forsaken. Perhaps it's only the forsaken that brought it out. He might be the only 'reborn hero' currently living who knew them- and the only one who would be affected by bits of the pattern that have lived thousands of years longer than they should. Well, LTT mostly came out when Rand was in the box, of course, so maybe not.

Callandor: 2003-03-17

Ive been thinking about when LTT first comes into contact with Rand through like a memory or something. Now most people agree that the earliest is in TSR when Rand tells Lanfear that she only likes/desires power.

However, while doing a re-read of TPOD, I can upon something interesting. When Rand is on his Seanchan campain and is just about to use Callandor (aint it a funny coincidence :-)), on page 482, Chapter 24, A Time for Iron, Rand is saying that he will rid the Seanchan blah blah, and LTT says in his head **Do you have the Horn of Valere hidden in your pocket this time?**

Now hold on. The Horn was used in TGH, and LTT KNOWS it. That is 2 books before many people agree Rand first remembers things through LTT, granted LTT is mocking Rand here not getting a memory from LTT.

So how the heck does that work?

juitzhead: 2003-03-20

Doesnt Mat have the horn at the end of TGH? He blows it when they're in the middle of a Seanchan and Whitecloak sandwich. Im a bit unclear as to what LTT is referring to?

lordofchaos: 2003-03-20

I don't think LLT has anything to do with the horn and the heroes that are called. the wheel repeats itself so in lifes before the horn could have been blown as it is in the time of rand and that may be how they know LLT.

chase: 2003-03-28

I'm not really sure which side of the fence i'm on in this one but if ltt is just a seperate personality how is rand suddenly able to do things that ltt could. now i'm not talking about weaves of the power of memories of the aol but talents that ltt had such as drawing. rj makes a fairly big deal out of rand suddenly being able to draw dead on portraits of the renagade asha'man in wh when before he had absolutly no artistic abilities.

Ryu: 2003-03-29

I think we need to clearly define what a personality and a soul is, first. I think that a soul is like a "starting point" for a life. The basics. And that personality is the like the mind of a person. so Lews's personality would be how he acted and his merories(sp) while Rand's is how HE acts and HIS merories(sp). Oh, this is another posablity and may go agaist what I just said but, maybe we can't compare Rand to anyone else. becuase there are so few DR's. So that would mean that Rand being the Dragon Reborn is a totally unquie freak. Maybe

Xenosaga-Zigguraut8: 2003-04-02

Wait, maybe there are real voices in Rand's head, What about this

All man channelers can channel, but they also have a side effect, like a time frame type thing. They get inside there selves from long ago there time and both are talking, your talking to them with your head and same for them.

Tarianna: 2003-04-02

I apologize if I'm repeating anything (which I doubt), but after about three-quarters through this thread I decided to go ahead and submit my thoughts, since this whole thing seems to be revolving around Rand's soul/personality/sanity.

But I haven't seen anything about the *Finn, and what happened when Rand went to "Finnland"- and I haven't seen anything of it in the books.. or have I? It was mentioned early on that perhaps LTT was a sort of Guide for this new Dragon that has no clue what he is about. In Tear, I would bet that Rand went into the Doorway looking for answers, asked for some sort of insight(perhaps in a similar form of "I don't know what I'm doing, I need help!"). Maybe he even expressed some sort of wish of wanting to know LTT, or wanting to know what he was/is like. Either way, I think that whatever happened in the doorway in Tear is the cause of LTT's voice.

For example, let's take a look at what happened to Mat, he asked for memories, meaning what he missed during his bout with the dagger, and ended up getting his past lives back. I don't think it is unlikely that the same sort of thing happened to Rand.

"Be careful what you wish for."

juitzhead: 2003-04-02

There is no other 'soul' in Rand. Quite simply, Rand is LTT reborn, which means they share the SAME thread in the pattern. I see this as sharing the same soul (which RJ has clearly stated – one body, one soul). Also, there's no indication of anyone in Randland exhibiting the same behaviour.

Rand has made up LTT from what he has heard and read so he can more easily deal with who he is and what he has to do (psycho??). Although this does leave gaps as to how he learned to draw and such. BUT he was weaving stuff he knew nothing about before LTT showed up.

I'm confused.....

Callandor: 2003-04-04

The Tear doorway grants answers to questions (IE: why must Mat go to Rhuidean, how does Rand Cleanse the Source, how does he survive the Last Battle). The Rhuidean doorway grants wishes (IE: I want the holes in my memory fixed, I want to be free of the Power and Aes Sedai,and I want to leave and such).

Rand never went into the Rhuidean doorway so there is no way the Tear doorway could grant a request such as I need Help.

araqyl: 2003-05-12

I stick with lewstherin80's response (a bit back up the tree) that 'the other' LTT referred to was not in Rand's head at all.

At first I thought it might be Taim (who LTT has a particular dislike for) but the more I thought about it after lewstherin80's post the more I believe he's right - that it was Lan.

Lan is the heir to a lost kingdom, and would have the support of the whole Borderlands if he chose to rebuild it, but has dedicated himself to destruction and death - much like Rand, trying to make himself hard enough to win TG.

I'm sure LTT had to go through a similar hardening process in the War of Power back in the AoL, and he can see the similarity between himself, Rand, and Lan.

oosquai: 2003-06-17

I personally think that Rand has one soul with two minds. The first being Rand al'Thor the second LTT. Now as to how and why a previous incarnation is still with rand consider this.

Rand al'Thor is the strongest ta'veran EVER. As such he spins the pattern and probability acourding to what he needs, things that only have a one in a million chance of happening happen if he needs it, and sometimes when he doesn't. That being said, can you be sure that no-one EVER has had for some reason the barriers broken down and get glimpes of thier past lives. Those who believe in reincarnation in real life say that that is possible. So would it be so inconsievable to speculate that in a world where reincarnation is the driveing force of the universe that it NEVER happens. Its rare and very unlikely to occur. But when you take the strongest ta'veran the pattern has ever spun out, and give him the NEED for information only available from LTT, if there is even a slight possibility that a normal person can have that barrier broken, you can be sure that for Rand it would be a certainty.

And on a side note

As far as the threads conecting the forsaken with the dark one, remember this. At both times Rand was channeling through a sourse of unimanginable power, the first time through the Eye of the World, the second through the Choedan Kal.

The second time he and Asmodean were also both drawing on the same sa'angreal, in my opinion that would probably cause a resonanse between both of the channalers atempting to do such and would give them knowlage about the others power usage that would be unavailable under different curcumstances. As in Rand could see the lines because he could see where the taint from the source comeing from the sa'angreal that he was useing was going, part into him part being filtered through those lines back to the DO.

The first time could just have been an effect of the Eye of the World, channeling from the ONLY pure source of sadin in the world would probably create a hyper awarness of the taint comeing from the true sourse. Then again alowing him to see where the taint was going when at other times he should not be able to.

heronblade: 2003-06-17

When Lews Therin talks about himself as a destroyer, him Rand and the other he says they are not builders. perrin is to rebuild after tg so ltt could be talking about himself rand and matt. this is what i thought anyway. leaving perrin as the one left. this would make sense in the content

Callandor: 2003-06-17

Mats a general not a builder, and not nesscarily a destroyer.

Rand DOESNT see the cords coming off the Asmodean when they are drawing through the CK in Rhuidean. He visualizes where they are. He DOES see them coming off Asmodean in the Skimming place. He can, or only, has seen the Black Cords in parts of TAR.

Shadow Bane: 2003-06-21

Just wanted to throw this quote in-

"Who are you? Where am I?

Rand felt as though a fist had clutched his throat. He had been sure, but....This was the first time Lews Therin had said anything to him, something clearly and plainly addressed to him."- LOC page 558

Rand and Lews talk some more after that but that appears to be the first time Lews actually TALKED to Rand directly instead of mumbling.

Demon: 2003-06-24

I like the idea of a "veil" covering past lives. Maybe the taint's purpose is to break that veil, so past personalities can come through. This would also explain the madness; can you imagine 5, 10, maybe 50 people all talking, mumbling, shouting, arguing in your head and you have no way to shut them up? I'd go nuts too!

stromgard: 2003-07-16

OK! I don't want to act bossy or besserwisser or something, but I have to state a fact.

It is true Rand has learned new types of waves by himself before LTT arrived in his head, but since Nyneve spontanesly learned balefire in TDR (or was it Egwene?), couldn't that just be another manifestation of the true blood of Manetheren (like Mat speaking OT)?

Actually, LTT has told Rand stuff that he could not possibly have learned anywhere. Plus, he taught Rand to draw in WH. And (at least) Moridin, Be'lal and Sammael believed that LTT was real.

There's no question about it. LTT is real. Live with it.

Callandor: 2003-07-16

It wouldnt be the Old Blood in Rand, Rand is Aiel blood not Two Rivers blood like Mat, Perrin, Nynaeve, etc.

It was Nynaeve that made balefire.

But LTT is a personality of Rand. So real or not hes just in his head.

Korell: 2003-07-17

Did you actually read the above posts and have your read any interview with RJ he has explicitly said that there is only one soul in each person the only person who has any claim to 2 souls is slayer because they were merged togeather also Rand is LTT's soul reborn so how could he have LTT's soul in his mind? LTT is a manifestation of Rand's subconcious caused by the taint on the Saidain.

Dorindha: 2003-07-17

I'm not sure it has been said like this before, but I believe that while Rand is LTT's soul reborn, and therefore only one soul, the voice of LTT (and I do think it is LTT) is like s msnifestation of the soul's "memory".

On the other hand, I'm not sure how to square this with what Cadsuane said about male channellers hearing voices.

Callandor: 2003-07-17

Not sure if your talking to me Korell, but I was saying that LTT is a manifestation of Rand, a seperate personality, not another soul in him.

Mad Tinker: 2003-07-19

I agree with Dorinda. Probably the best explanation for LTT's voice in Rand's head. We know Rand has only one soul; but the voice keeps telling him things LTT would know. It's NOT a manifestation of the taint or Rand's madness. However, the third person in Rand? No idea...

Caramoor: 2003-08-21

The OP is the essence of the creator that Powers the Wheel of Time which spins a pattern. The TP is the essence of the DO that works to undo the creations of the wheel, kind of an anti-time (at least it is the opposite of the OP). The wheel places the a veil over the memories of past lives lived by a soul. Since the taint on Saidin is the TP, it works to tear away the veil that has been placed on each soul by the wheel. So the voice is Rand's head is LTT being able to communicate with his later (Rand), and probably former incarnation (the other) as the veils are torn down. But since Saidin is now clean, there will be no more tearing down effects.

I don't think that Rand is tied to the Horn of Valere. His soul is the Champion of the Light. He is tied to the pattern. I also don't think that every soul is reborn. I believe that someone has to prove themselves worthy of being reborn, thus heroes who are tied to the Horn, sho have proven themselves, can be respun into the pattern as needed.

Just some thoughts to chew on.

Particleman: 2003-08-22

I think all souls have to be reborn....if only heroes or "worthy" souls got reborn it would be a very sparsely populated world.

Just a thought but maybe "the other" is the Rand/LTT combo already starting to put itself together?

Caramoor: 2003-08-22

Never mind my "not all souls are reborn comment". Jordan has said all souls await a rebirth.

Than: 2003-08-23

have any of you read raymod e fiests riftwar saga? it has a simmilar mind boggle in it. the two characters are accualy linked thru the ages both in the others head at the same time perhaps lews therin heard a sheperd in his head and why should the dragon conform to the normal rules of everyone else no one else has been prophisised to be reborn on the site of his death hes unique the rules do not apply to him. and rules are meant to be broken (you cant heal the severed, you cant break cullindar, the dark one and all the forsaken are bound in shaol gol untill the end of time) dont mind me just thought id mention it

OKflyboy: 2003-09-16

Well, I'm not current on the books, I just started reading them a couple of months ago, and with college and the AFReserve taking up most of my time, I'm only on WH. Anyway, please forgive me if my ignorance is too blatant. :)

Okay, so I get the "one body/one soul" thing. SO if Rand's soul used to belong to LTT, and has also belonged to countless others throughout the ages, then LTT's memories could easily have come with them. Even before his episode with the Finns Matt's past lives surface. In the beginning, when Matt speaks in the old tongue, it is without his knowledge, and outside of his control. He speaks on instinct, as if someone else were speaking. Just as Rand does when LTT starts surfacing. LTT attempts to embrace the source without Rand's knowledge, he speaks of things only LTT would know (To Lanfear I recall, if not others), and begins taking on LTT's mannerisms (the humming and even though I haven't read that far yet, I guess he picks up his artistic talent as well?) He has LTT's knowledge of Illenya(sp?), of the Forsaken, and of channeling that he was never actually taught. I'm not certain that LTT is really there talking to him, but it certainly leads me to believe that he's not entirely a creation of Rand's failing sanity. Someone stated earlier that perhaps the taint is breaking down the barrier between the lives, and causing LTT and Rand to become one. I like this.

As for Birgitte and Artur Hawkwing recognizing him- could it be that perhaps they simply recognize him from the many incarnations of The Dragon since the beggining of time. One Dragon per Age, but and infinite number of Ages means a lot of Dragons.

And as for "the other". Well, Rand hears LTT, The Dragon from the previous Age, in his head. Could it be that LTT, back in the AoL, heard the voice of The Dragon from the Age previous to the AoL in his head? Therefore LTT would remember another voice, a third destroyer, whom Rand does not hear.

what d'ya think?

BTW- my first post here, but I love this site!! Thanx to everyone who posts here, you guys rock!!

Rand Therin alThor: 2003-09-19

Ok..it has been a while since someone has replied to this theory..but I had a little insight. Someone..dont remember who, said that "the other one" could be the Dragon before LTT. I agree with this one. Yes, Rand is only one soul with his own personality. But LTT shared the same soul and has now formed a personality in Rands head. The soul is remembering thoughts of its past life as LTT...and the other one is the personality of the Dragon from the First Age. The memories and personality is stronger of LTT than it is of the other one because it is more recent...just like Rands personality is stronger than LTT. It being the 3rd Age..it would make sense for him to have 3 Dragon personalities. Now the Dragon in the 4th Age will have Its own personality but Rands, LTT and the Dragon from the first age will begin to develop in the head of the 4th Age Dragon. Same thing goes with the 5th, 6th, and 7 Age Dragons. Its the same soul throught each Age...but the personalities from the previous Ages will begin develope in each Dragon.

I am gonna include one of the other theories on this site just to spice things up. The First Age theory states that our current world is perhaps the first Age....well then "the Other one" in Rands head will be the Dragon in our world. RJ hasn't stated anything on him other than the fact that he is there..because the Dragon has not proclaimed himself....or has he?.

Just start looking for someone channeling and you'll find the 3rd person in Rands head.

Shadar Darei: 2003-09-20

There is one point in the books where Rand is complaining about Lews being in his head. Lews responds saying something like "I would not mind you in my head if you weren't so clearly insane". This lead me to believe Rand could be just as easily insane as Lews Therin seems. Maybe some of what Lews Therin tells Rand is just an effect of the taint, and Rand just thinks it's Lews.

And when you think about it Lews really isn't that crazy, just misunderstood. He's said some things that sound crazy, but what would you expect from someone who murdered his entire family line, everyone he loved. He tells Rand to break the seals, but maybe it's what needs to be done.

Anyway, Rand probably isn't insane and Lews Therin probably is, but it could be plausible, Rand does hear voices. One thing that can be determined is that Lews Therin's voice is real. There is no way Rand could have figured out some of the weaves or just general facts he did without someones help.

ewopb: 2003-10-01

There is a voice in Rands head since he knows certain things about certain people. He was able to create that floating cloud in TDR and he didn't know how he did it. I do not think this is by mistake, seems a little to far fetched. Lews. was sane at the time when he realized that he killed all his loved ones and THAT is what drove him insane. The reason why Rand only has Lews. voice in his head is possibly because the soul of the Dragon only keeps it's memories for each full rotation of the wheel. Perhaps with each full rotation everything is wiped clean and started anew. A new age of legends and a new Dragon spun into existance whenever needed. Maybe in other times the Dragons voice is not so insane? Maybe it is clearer and able to help the new Dragon....who knows? Maybe Jordan doesn't even know:P

Jack o Shadows: 2003-10-18

There are alot of replys so I'm not gona read 'em all(read some though), I'm sorry if what I'm about to say turns out to have been said but:

1) Even if he was cured perminantly, how would you react to knowing you'd just destroyed your entire family and everyone you cared about??

2)Why would he be granted sanity in death? He still went on, body to body, Reborn.

Umm, thats all I can remember of my point so buy. :D

Cor Shan: 2003-10-19

One LTT is a seperate PART of Rand. Rand would have the memorys surface without the taint; the taint gives it a voice. Lewand saying Rand is insane: to Lewand (LTT/Rand), his thoughts are logical to him, but Rand is insane compared to him. the other memorys will surface eventually, but without the taint. OR it could be Old Blood, I will post my OB thery in a while.

Callandor: 2003-10-20

**OR it could be Old Blood**

No. Grind this into your head: Rand is not born of the Two Rivers. That is where the Old Blood is. Egwene, Perrin, Mat, Nynaeve... THEY have the Old Blood, the blood of long ago Manetheren.

Rand is Aiel. No Old Blood.

Cor Shan: 2003-10-21

Opps good point...

Jalt Varyd: 2003-10-23

Here's my opinion on the LTT issue:

1- Rand is Lews Therin. They have the same soul. I think RJ has said this, yes?

2- Rand is absolutely unique. All souls are reborn, but no one else has prophecies to identify him. Rand is specifically The Dragon Reborn, not just an addition incarnation of a soul, so he is (to a certain extent) a continuation of the life of LTT. As he started to enter his destiny as the Dragon, he began to remember things from when he was LTT. However, he is still only human, and remembering a past life is hard on one's mind. I think his subconscious reaction was to push these memories into the back of his mind and try to ignore them. Now he has all of LTT's memories - which are his - walled of in one corner of his head. If anything, the Taint DEEPEND this division (and possibly is part of the cause of the LTT part of Rand's mind having a separate voice). LTT's voice is a split personality effect based on his memories from his life as LTT. However, memories, skills, etc. are still leaking across the division. I think as he comes to understand and accept that Rand al'Thor and Lews Therin Telamon are the same person, not just the same soul, he will gain more access to these memories, and eventually he will not have a separate voice for LTT. Does this sound reasonable?

Jack o Shadows: 2003-10-23

But what about Mat? He has other men's memories in his head and isn't pushing them to the back or hearing voices. Why should Rand?

Anubis: 2003-10-23

jaylt, not only does it sound reasonable, it sounds like a theory i made a while back... tho how does yours explain the third voice?

Jalt Varyd: 2003-10-23

Jack o Shadows-

Mat got all of his new memories at one time, and knew why it happened. In fact, he (accidently) asked for it! For Rand it was a gradual process, and at the beginning he had no way of understanding what was going on.

Cor Shan: 2003-10-25

One: The Eelfinn (Foxes, straight lines, wishes right?) gave Mat his wishes of all the people who went to them. Why does he also have death memories? Because the Eelfinn want all the memories, and they can alter and read the pattern for memories.

Two: The Taint give LTT memories a voice. Why LTT and not Amalanson (I agree with Uno's theory [I think it was Uno] about Amalanson[this could have been disproven but I dont know if it has]), is because Amalanson was fried by the taint, so he takes longer, also LTT _WAS_ the dragon, and so is Rand. If Amalanson was not Rand/LTT, then the third voice is that of the first age dragon.

Jack o Shadows: 2003-10-27

How could gradual manifestation of pastlives be worse than having them all just dumped in yuour head?

And besides, before the true manifestaion of the voice happened Rand occasionally took on the persona of LTT, in fact...I think h did in tEotW? First time he meets whitecloaks? With Mat and the barrels?

I don't really get the whole, "Taint allowed the memories to manifest" thing. I mean, wouldn't that mean that you would have hundres of Asha'man runing around with voices in their heads rather than just going plain nuts?

I think when it 'cos of how Rand (and everyone) thought of the Dragon before Rand knew he was the Dragon? Nighon as bas as th DO right? So the intense "ARGGGGHH! DRAGON!" thing forced him to seporate from them. Thus the gradual manifesting of the voices first as actions, then memories, then words and finally the voices. I think he's gonna have to eventually have a sit down with them and re-amalgimate them all. And that aint gonna happen 'till he decides they're real.

(Also, how could memories and the taint make Rand a good artist? 'cos Rand couldn't draw but LTT could?)

Jalt Varyd: 2003-10-27

Jack o Shadows-

Are you disputing my theory or supporting it? It kind of seems like both...

About Mat: I think his memories were too sudden to push aside. Also, as I said, he knows why he got them.

Anubis-

I haven't read all the theories yet. Was yours on this thread? I'm not sure about the third voice yet.

I don't have access to the books at the moment, so I have to work from memory. I've started rereading the series; I can only get the books on weekends and I don't have much time, so it will take a while, but I will pay close attention to this topic.

Sensir: 2003-11-15

Its very possible that the voices rand hears are an effect of the dark one. when people die they go too him and LTT is dead. could the dark one be feeding the voice to rand? or could it be something deeper.

Callandor: 2003-11-16

**Its very possible that the voices rand hears are an effect of the dark one. when people die they go too him and LTT is dead. could the dark one be feeding the voice to rand? or could it be something deeper.**

No, the DO does NOT! control the souls of the dead; he controls the souls of those who have willingly given them to him (The Forsaken for sure, Gray Men and Slayer are possibilies).

bayoegb: 2003-11-19

The voice in Rand's head is Lews Therin and the reason this voice is real is because as stated before it knows things about the age of legends it also knows who Demandred is and what he looks like in fact the voice thinks that Taim is Demandred, next Rand is starting to get some of the traits of Lews Therin i don't remember what they are but he is getting them, and my last reason that the voice is real is Mins viewings on Rand one the things that she sees is Rand joining with a man (becoming one) and then later on one of them would die and the other will live. We must also not forget that Rand is the Dragon Reborn and therefore will not be like all the other heros of the horn because he is born to face the Dark One which is a task not many others have to do. Also the reason Lews Therin may be mad is because he murdered his own family wouldn't that drive most of you to madness

timmah3209: 2004-01-02

OK just a couple thoughts... feel free to bash them to hell if they are wrong.

Rand technically *could* have the old blood because his mother is from the andoran royal line... not that I support that theory, just saying.

And about the comments about Mat not going insane from the crap in his head. It is definitely different. Mat has *memories*. Rand has a voice. Viewing something in your mind through someone else's eyes is different than a voice talking to you.

ema: 2004-01-21

correct me if i am wrong, but it is the third age in al'thor's time. therefore, it is logical to say that there have been dragons in the past, and wars fought before. one of the dragons could have possibly gone insane from therin in his head. he could be the one ranting and raving, while the real lews therin is the one maing all of the sane comments and giving al'thor advise

Grady: 2004-01-21

I've been reading through the entire series again and the part about Ishy telling Lews that his healing is permanent has me thinking that LTT is sane it's just that Rand's use of Callandor has unhinged both Rand and LTT. I think Cadsuane says something about using the sword without a woman to link with causes some sort of mental damage and her comment about whether Rand had started hearing voices yet kind of supports it too. Plenty of kind of, sort ofs, and maybes in there though.

Callandor: 2004-01-22

**TITLE: Path of Daggers,CHAPTER: 27 - The Bargain

"What do you mean about Callandor?" "It is flawed," she replied curtly, "lacking the buffer that makes other sa'angreal safe to use. And it apparently magnifies the taint, inducing wildness of the mind. So long as a man is using it, anyway. The only safe way for you to use The Sword That Is Not a Sword, the only way to use it without the risk of killing yourself, or trying to do the Light alone knows what insanity, is linked with two women, and one of them guiding the flows."**

Callandor makes a male channeler think crazy things (Rand being able to bring back a dead girl, Rand being able to destroy all of the Seanchan), they are close to the truth, but aren't. It produces, as Cads said, a wildness of the mind, but ONLY when channeling through it without a link to 2 women guiding the flows. It magnifies the taint, allowing more of it to flow in rather then buffering it, but using it once does not make a male channeler instantly crazed.

OKflyboy: 2004-01-23

ema: it is not illogical to assume there have been many dragons.

Remember, in Randland, time is cyclical, hence the "wheel of time". Pick any point on the wheel, and a 360 degree turn will bring you back to your starting point. That means an infinite number of ages, and an infinite number of dragons, throughout time...

crispyroach: 2004-02-05

Not sure if this has been cleared up in other areas, maybe some of you WOT scholars could help *cough, Callandor, cough*. Was that Balefire that TTL hits himself with in the intro to EOTW? If so, could that cause his thread to do super funky things in the pattern? ie: cause a partial re-apperance in Rand?

Callandor: 2004-02-05

No, RJ said he OD'd on saidin.

heronblade: 2004-02-06

*That means an infinite number of ages, and an infinite number of dragons, throughout time... * we have no evidence to support that this is the case. everything happens because of cause and effect, this means there must have been a first cause that set the system in motion and this could well have been what happened to LTT. LTT was 'the dragon', rand is 'the dragon re-born' we have had no real or conclusive evidence to say that there was a figure known as 'the dragon/reborn' or whatever before LTT.

OKflyboy: 2004-02-08

heronblade said: “we have had no real or conclusive evidence to say that there was a figure known as 'the dragon/reborn' or whatever before LTT”

The following quotes are Taken from “The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time” starting on pg. 13.

This is all relevant to my point about time being cyclical. However pay close attention to the third and fourth paragraphs, as they are very significant.

*****

What is the wheel of time? Imagine a great cosmic loom in the shape of a seven-spoked wheel, slowly spinning through eternity, weaving the fabric of the universe. The Wheel, put in place by the Creator, is time itself, ever turning and returning. The fabric it weaves is constructed from the threads of lives and events, interlaced into a design, the Great Pattern, which is the whole of existence and reality, past, present and future.

Within the influence of this Lace of Ages are not only the earth and stone of the physical world, but other worlds and universes, other dimensions, other possibilities. The wheel touches what might be, what might have been, and what is. It touches the world of dreams as well as the world of waking.

In this world there is no one beginning or one end, for each spoke of the great Wheel represents one of the seven Ages, reaching into the past and returning in the future as the Wheel spins, the fabric of each age changing only its weave and pattern with each passing. With every pass the changes vary to an increasingly greater degree. For each Age there is a separate and unique pattern, the Pattern of the Age, which forms the substance of reality for that age. This design is predetermined by the Wheel and can only partially be changed by those lives which make up the threads within the weave.

No one knows the length of time it takes for a full turning of the Wheel, nor is there a set time for each Age. There is only the certainty that all will come around again, though surely long past the span encompassed by human memory, or even legend. Yet that knowledge provides the basis for the philosophy and history of the known world. No ending, even death, is necessarily final within the turning of the wheel. Reincarnation is a part of the way of the world. Prophecies are believed and heeded, since they tell as much of what was as of what will be, the only questions are when and in what manner the prophecies will unfold.

*****

“For each Age there is a separate and unique pattern, the Pattern of the Age, which forms the substance of reality for that age. This design is predetermined by the Wheel and can only partially be changed by those lives which make up the threads within the weave”

and

“ There is only the certainty that all will come around again...*Reincarnation is a part of the way of the world. Prophecies are believed and heeded, since they tell as much of what was as of what will be*” (Asterisk-emphasis mine)

heronblade, While you are correct, that the series never gives us a direct indication that there have been other dragons, or speaks much about the cyclical motion of the Wheel of Time, I believe these speak for themselves.

crispyroach: 2004-02-11

Fun discussion. Min's vision gives wieght to the fact that LTT is really there, and that his and Rands personalities will merge, not exclude one or the other. (no Fight Club type ending). Kinda like in Hickman/Weiss books of Legends. Raistlin fights Fistandantilus, they both win. (From what I have asked him, Fis. won physically, but Raist took him mentally).

I agree that the soul is like a tree's trunk. but more like the rings inside it. the veil that seperates them is thin in some souls. And from what we see, more so in those from Manetherin. Rand is 1/2 Old blood. (sorry Callandor). Mat and Nynaeve also show this thinness (with the obvious war-knowledge and balefire/healing). This is also supported by the quote of Thom saying that the dead re-surface.

I really like the idea that Rand will be eventually in communication with all the past Dragons. But more through a **i talk to LTT, he talks to *the other one*,he talks to whoever...** so on and so on.

dragonsceptor: 2004-02-11

I think part of this confusion results from our limited ability to concieve time being circular. Because our time is very linear, we cannot concieve of circular time as we have no experience with it. I think of the comment in the bible by God saying "I am the beginning and the End" and although I believe it, I have a difficult time conceiving how that would work. In my mind there always has to be a first beginning. However, that is a limitation that I have because I am so linear. However, that does not mean the world does not have circular time. It just means that I have a difficult time conceiving how that works. I think the same applies here. The WOT uses circular time and we have difficulty concieving of this because we live in a world of linear time.

Callandor: 2004-02-11

**Rand is 1/2 Old blood. (sorry Callandor).**

No, Rand is not of the Old Blood. Rnad has Andoran blood in him from his mother, but she was not from the Two Rivers. Only people from the Two Rivers have the Old Blood.

rollthedice: 2004-02-11

To tell the truth...I did not read this whole post...but it looked to me as if you forgot an important aspect of memories in a person's head - Mat.

Mat has vast memories of many lives in his head, even if they are not whole.

I also believe that LTT is in Rand's head because in one of the books, 5 or 6, Rand says something like Lews become stronger and more persistent the more he (Rand) uses the Power. Also, in LoC Lews keeps on trying to take over when he is around Taim or Aes Sedai, using the power on them to kill or maim them. Lews must see a traitor in Taim and the Aes Sedai as a hinderence, which that makes no sense for the Aes Sedai in his day and age were both male and female, and he led them or was one of them.

rollthedice: 2004-02-13

I forgot to say this to Callandor, but the Two Rivers is not the only place where the Old Blood is, it is just a place with strong Old Blood, as there was more than one nation in the Ten Nations...and people from Manetheren did not all stay in that region, after the Trolloc attacks I am sure some became refugees, especially during such a big war.

Min Farshaw: 2004-02-14

I've been rereading the series again, and there was a small part that made me wonder about this. I can't recall which book, but basically Padan Fain was still being drawn to hunt for Rand and co.... but he said that it was as if someone has partially possessed Rand, changing his pull on Fain.

Callandor: 2004-02-14

We have yet to have a case of the Old Tongue from outside of the Two Rivers. Simple statistics show that if the Old Blood exists outside the Two Rivers, it is divused enough to never amount to anything close to what can be concidered the "Old Blood".

Dark Crusader: 2004-02-27

As I was reading through the posts something ticked in my mind with one of Callandor's posts when he said that Lews Therin "ODed on saidin." Couldn't that be the cause of Rand's maddness and why he hears Therin's voice?

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that perhaps by ODing on saidin that instead of burning his thread away, as he probably intended to do and save his wife, he perhaps warped his thread into the future and somhow latched onto Rands thread when he enter La-la-land in the third book. So it's not Lews Therin's soul but rather his thoughts in a warped place in time.

Another point is that Therin is NOT insane from Saidin. He obviously remembers killing everyone while he was mad, and he technally was healed by Ishy. Therin is insane because he killed his wife and then warped himself into this weird place where HE CANNOT DIE, which is what he wanted to do.

I'm new here so feel free to poke holes, or shred, my idea.

dragonsceptor: 2004-02-28

**Lews must see a traitor in Taim and the Aes Sedai as a hinderence, which that makes no sense for the Aes Sedai in his day and age were both male and female, and he led them or was one of them.***

Sorry for responding to this so late. I only just read the Strike at Shayol Ghul and I believe that sheds some light on this. At the end of the AOL, the AS were polarized between men and women. That is why the 100 companions were all men. The female AS formed an alliance against LTT to prevent him from doing what he did. So, they were a hinderance and actively worked against him. Additionally, the female AS (while I agree that LTT may have contributed) were directly responsible for the split between male and female AS becuase of the agreements they made that no women would support LTT.

Arbryan: 2004-03-02

There's a theory I've held to for a very long time now concerning Deja Vu that might help explain some of what is happening to Rand.

I believe memories are stored in DNA and thus passed from father to son, and father to son, etc. While these memories are not necessarily available for the ‘son' to access they exist on a subconscious level. When something happens to the ‘son' that is similar to the experience of the ‘father' then the mind fuses the two and viola, you've been there before, or done that before. It's a mental synchronization of two like experiences into one.

Now, how does that relate to Rand? In the world of the WOT a thread, or the soul, is the persons past, present, and future that is woven into the pattern. The personality tied to that soul for a specific period of time would be infused with those memories (that personality would be part of the soul, or the souls past). When Rand encounters strong emotions – such as being trapped in a box with no way out – or situations that are similar to those experienced by LTT – such as being around AS – the two situations are brought together through time and thus both personalities are present. The closer he gets to the LB the more these events will overlap, in a sense (not exactly identical, but theoretically the same) and the more the two personalities will be active.

crispyroach: 2004-03-16

Small nitpick, LTT is insane from the backlash of the DO at the point when LTT and the Companions re-sealed the bore. All of them went insane instantly and the rest of the male channelers went later.

Mad: 2004-03-26

I agree with previous posts which refer to the fundamental difference the series suggests exists in a soul whose rebirth can be prophecised, and the nature of that soul's ability to recall its past lives and fundamental purpose.

What readers of TWOT have to realize is that RJ draws inspiration from previous fantasy series and their methods of utilizing the Arthurian hero formula - most notably Frank Herbert's Dune. With that in mind, think on the awakening of the Kwisatz Haderach, the screams in his mind of his ancestors, and I think you may have a clue what RJ has in store for Rand. Rand's development has to climax at TG, and it seems to me that last step will be to 'awaken' and realize exactly what it means to be the Dragon.

fringe dweller: 2004-03-29

Well, it's my first post so bear with me a bit!

"I would not mind you in my head if you weren't so clearly insane". - LTT to Rand.

This would indicate to me that not only is LTT in Rand's head but Rand is also in LTT's head - kind of like a two way street.

Is it possible that this is what the taint does? Start breaking down the "veil" or barriers between the past incarnations of a soul, and as channeling occurs, make it thinner, and thinner, allowing more bleeding of the personalities (voices)until madness sets in? Perchance not the best iteration of what I'm thinking but that's a start.

OKflyboy: 2004-03-31

Callandor Said:

"No, Rand is not of the Old Blood. Rnad has Andoran blood in him from his mother, but she was not from the Two Rivers. Only people from the Two Rivers have the Old Blood"

***

Actually, Rand IS old blood, as proved by Aiel prophecy.

From TDR Ch. "Threads in The Pattern" as spoken by Aviendha

"Blood of our blood mixed with the old blood, raised by the anceent blood not ours"

1) Blood of our blood (From Rands true father, and Aiel)

2) Mixed with the old blood (from Rands true mother, from ANDOR!)

3)Raised by the ancient blood not ours (Raised by Tam, ancient blood of Manetheren)

:)

Callandor: 2004-04-01

**"Blood of our blood mixed with the old blood, raised by the anceent blood not ours"

1) Blood of our blood (From Rands true father, and Aiel)

2) Mixed with the old blood (from Rands true mother, from ANDOR!)**

Mixed with the Old Blood, yes; his friends have the Old Blood, and he grew up around people with the Old Blood. But Rand himself does NOT have the Old Blood. The Old Blood is only from people whose parents are from the Two Rivers; Rand's parents are an Aiel, and a Caemlyn Daughter-Heir. Both not from the Two Rivers; both with no trace of the Old Blood in them.

Rand does not have the Old Blood at all.

OKflyboy: 2004-04-02

Callandor said

"Mixed with the Old Blood, yes; his friends have the Old Blood, and he grew up around people with the Old Blood"

***

No no no. Where do you keep getting this from? MIXED means mixed, theres no amiguity there. If you're making cookies and the recipe says mix the flour and the sugar you put them in the same bowl, yes? So if the prophecy says Rand's blood is Aiel blood mixed with old blood then they're "in the same bowl" yes? Take the cookie example again, if your definition of mixing were to be correct, then could I say that I had mixed the flower and the sugar by simple placing them next to eachother on the counter? Of course not! Now what you suggest, that "his friends have the Old Blood, and he grew up around people with the Old Blood" would be the third part, "raised by ancient blood not ours". He was raised by Two Rivers folks.

And as for NO old blood being from outside the two rivers, where do you get this? All the quotes from Moraine, Lan, Suiane, etc, all they every say is stuff like "The old blood of Manetheren is strong in the Two Rivers", Not "the old blood comes from only the two rivers". There were other countries around during the Manetheren days, is it SO hard to believe that there's the "old blood of Bumville" runnign around from other parts of Randland?

And sure, we have never seen old blood from outside the two rivers. That's becuase our storie follows Rand, Perrin, and Mat, and all references of the old blood are about them. But if it were ONLY from Manetheren then I would think "the old blood" would be an obscure reference, considering two rivers folk don't leave the two rivers. But several people seem to know EXACTLY what the old blood is, leading me to believe its know if not exactly common from other places...

OKflyboy: 2004-04-02

Just to further my point a bit, there were 9 other nations turing the time of Manetheren. Coremanda being the one sharing what is now Andor with Manetheren:

Aelgar

Almoren

Aramaelle

Aridhol (Shadar Logth)

Coremanda

Eharon

Essenia

Jaramide

Safer

Is it SO hard to belive that with all the references to Mat and Perrin about the "old blood of Manetheren" that there could be "old blood of Coremanda" in Rand?

Callandor: 2004-04-02

**And as for NO old blood being from outside the two rivers, where do you get this?...And sure, we have never seen old blood from outside the two rivers. That's becuase our storie follows Rand, Perrin, and Mat, and all references of the old blood are about them. But if it were ONLY from Manetheren then I would think "the old blood"...leading me to believe its know if not exactly common from other places...**

To quote:

**TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 19 - Shadow's Waiting

"Don't say that!" Thom drew a deep breath; everybody stared at him now. "That is dangerous talk, stupid talk. The dead can be reborn, or take a living body, and it is not something to speak of lightly." He took another breath to calm himself before going on. "The old blood, she said. The blood, not a dead man. I've heard that it can happen, sometimes. Heard, though I never really thought . . . It was your roots, boy. A line running from you to your father to your grandfather, right on back to Manetheren, and maybe beyond. Well, now you know your family is old. You ought to let it go at that and be glad. Most people don't know much more than that they had a father."**

**TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 47 - More Tales of the Wheel

"The old blood," Moiraine said, "split out like a river breaking into a thousand times a thousand streams, but sometimes streams join together to make a river again. The old blood of Manetheren is strong and pure in almost all these young men. Can you doubt the strength of Manetheren's blood, Lord Agelmar?"**

Other places outside the Two Rivers do not breed together enough and see too much diffusion with other people from other countries. In the Two Rivers, do to their isolation, they are restricted to only people from there which is why the Old Blood is so prevelant.

Rand's parents, an Aiel from across the Dragonwall (no old blood at all) and the Daughter-Heir from Caemlyn, a major cosmopolitan city. Nobles mainly marry other nobles, but they do marry commoners everyone once and a while, but the blood they carry would be incredibly diffused.

So, you are believing in nearly impossible odds. Hence, Rand does not have the Old Blood in him. He has friends that have the Old Blood and is concidered one of them, hence "mixed", as well as being raised by the same blood.

And to go to your cookie analogy, if you dump a bunch of distinct toys into a toy bin, would you not concider them mixed? You don't have to cook them like cookies to have the "mixed" part of the prophecy; they are ambiguous for that reason.

Darren: 2004-04-03

Umm Callandor, Rand is definitely "Old Blood," just not Manetheren Blood (Although Tigraine may well have had Manetheren in her.) When Rand sees through the eyes of his ancestors in the columns of Rhuidean, he sees a line that goes back to the Age of Legends. That's pretty old.

Unicorn: 2004-04-03

the Old Blood (note caps, it's not just blood past the date of last sale), is NOT, the Old Blood of Manethheren - the Old Blood of Manetheren is a part of the whole that makes up the Old Blood. And whileit is true that there would be very few place that presents the same levels of inbreeding as the Two Rivers (incredible that they are not all raving madmen, I guess they know enough about breeding sheep for that to happen, hmmmm maybe that is one of the womens circle functions, to prevent... I'm seem to ramble alot don't I :o)), but I could see places like Far Madding to produce similar results, but all in all I will concede Callandors point - execpt (have I ever agreed wholly with Callandor?). As I have gathered from the books the primary prerequisite to attain the Lion throne is the number blood lines you can trace to Ishara(also in the SBB*, ch 27), this would mean that even though a certain dilution might have happened there is a far amount of "inbreeding" among Andoran nobles, on top of this Ishara was direct ascendant from the kings of Aldeshar(same reference), which from the maps in SBB, was in the southern region of Cremanda, so I think that OkflyBoy's notion might be valid to some extend, all I'm saying is don't just dismiss it as woolheaded gossip.

As to the old memories bubbling up, my thought is that it really does not have much(I didn't say nothing!!) to do with Old Blood, but perhaps it's more to do with being Taveren. I don't think we have any reference to anybody with this trait who is not Taveren. Birgitte I know, but there are som many oddities about Birgittes being in the "real" world that she wouldn't count - besides I think all the Heroes of the Horn are Taveren. The only thing that would set my belief in concrete is if I could prove Ellias was Taveren too. This would tie in Perrins being wolfbrother in with this pretty neatly, after all this is also old, even older than the Age of Legends.

*the SBB is the Small Blue Book, I would think that it is similar to the BWB, which would be that Big White Book, in truth this book is called "The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time", it is written by RJ, and Teresa Patterson, if you knew already why did you read it, but I know I had big trouble finding out what the Bloddy BWB was until I found out that I had, had the book for a long time.

Anubis: 2004-04-04

sorry unicorn it aint taverenness.

when (in an alternate reality) trollocs invade like mad and kill the seanchan who have taken over the world, in the two rivers the women go to fight making comments about how it feels like this is not the first time they had done this. the first time being the fall of manatheren. oh and also when the women go to help perrin fight the trollocs i think they mention feelings of deja vous but im not too sure on that one.

OKflyboy: 2004-04-04

"And to go to your cookie analogy, You don't have to cook them like cookies to have the "mixed" part of the prophecy"

But when talking about mixed blood (as in DNA), then my analogy fits better than yours. We are talking about a genetic 'recipe' here...

To use myself as an example, I'm 1/4 Armenian, but I was raised in Central California as aminority to the majority of Mexican-Americans. But when I talk about my blood, I'm Armenian blood mixed with Irish blood, mixed with Cherokee, and despite being raised in California among Mexicans, no one could possible say about me" Blood of Armenia, mixed with Mexican blood", however they could possibly say "raised BY Mexican blood"...

You make a good arguement Callandor, but I still think I'm right... :)

Brendan Reborn: 2004-04-04

Elberyn,

When Ishy heals LTT, it's is only so he can realize he killed all of is kin, which i think drove him insane the normal way. Wouldn't you go insane if you realized you killed your entire family? In EOTW, Rand has a dream and ishy is posing as Ba'alzamon and told Rand that he took the taint away so LTT could see what he did.

Callandor: 2004-04-07

**Umm Callandor, Rand is definitely "Old Blood," just not Manetheren Blood (Although Tigraine may well have had Manetheren in her.**

Yes, I have never said that Rand was not Aiel Blood, just the opposite; I am saying Rand has no Old Blood like what Mat, Egwene, and other Two Rivers people have.

**As I have gathered from the books the primary prerequisite to attain the Lion throne is the number blood lines you can trace to Ishara...all I'm saying is don't just dismiss it as woolheaded gossip.**

Yes, dating back to Hawkwing's Time; Mantheren is the Trolloc Wars, 1000 years earlier. Quite a difference.

Not to mention they are not "direct" decendants like Mat and the rest of the Two Rivers people are; going by any number of ties to Ishara cousins, cousins, cousin could be the great-great-great-great daughter of Queen Modrellein, who is "closely" related to Ishara through decent, but that is still WAY too much diffusion of blood for the Old Blood to take place.

And, again, 1000 years in a non-isolated location, in the center of a a cosmopolitian place for that time; even Queens would lose all chance of Old Blood with the meshing of genes.

To quote again, the important part this time:

**TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 19 - Shadow's Waiting

"The old blood, she said. The blood, not a dead man. I've heard that it can happen, sometimes. Heard, though I never really thought . . . It was your roots, boy. *A line running from you to your father to your grandfather, right on back to Manetheren, and maybe beyond.* Well, now you know your family is old. You ought to let it go at that and be glad. Most people don't know much more than that they had a father."**

Thom specifically says father to father to father to father back to Manetheren; Rand's father was an Aiel, that simple fact should stop any possibility of any old blood at all in him. No Old Blood whatsoever in Rand.

Graendal: 2004-04-23

thought this post was bout Rand's head voices...not his bloodline. To keep things on track a bit....I recall Rand not being the only one to listen to "inner voices". Nynaeve and Egwene both have POVs where they have a little voice making some comment, not sure on exact words. But their little voices certainly aren't the effect from the taint on Saidar, nor are they claimed to be crazy. We just accept it for one of their thoughts. As I recall, Rand started the same way...the voice began as a wandering thought and manifested itself into an entity. Perhaps Nynaeve and Egwene will develope personalities for their little voices.

istarifire: 2004-05-18

Well here's my two cents. The Dragon is in reality, an idea. created by the Creator to combat his nemesis, the DO. The Creator made him as a lasting protection after he left the world to flower. The WoT world may have gone through countless Dragon vs. DO battles. It is my opinion that every time the DO has a chance to break out again, the Creators Dragon is Reborn into the world to fight him. As for the Hunters of the Horn recognizing him as Lew Therin, they most likely are recognizing what they think is Lews soul from their experiences, but is really the soul of the Dragon. Also, it is said in the books that Lews Therin was also a powerful ta'veren. The DO can affect the pattern directly (i think) and so it makes sense that the Dragon can as well. Theres my little theory, feel free to prove me wrong.

rune4me: 2004-06-15

o new to this so this may be a bit late in the discussion, but if you remember in the battle between Rand and Rahvin, Rahvin tries to unmake Rand in Dream world and when he(Rand) is fighting it the form that is taking shape is that of Lews.So I beleave Lews is really there. It is entirely possible that although Ishy healed him from the Taints madness, because of all that he did when he was mad he just went crazy. This madness maynot have been caused from the taint at all.

just something to think about

Scunnii: 2004-07-23

What if the DO's Taint is somehow breaking barrier between present and future? This would mean that Lews is (mentally at least) living in Rand's head. This could explain Rand's madness, and his memories of the Age of Legends, and also how Rand "knows" stuff that he shouldn't.

This could also explain why, in the Age of Legends, Lews Therin is going mad and destroying everything around him - he is reacting to things which happen in Rand's time, and doesnt realize that he is causing destruction all around him.

Also, this could be occurring with other Asha'man, and male AS in the Age of Legends, causing the madness in both of them.

Ishamael's healing could have worked by bringing Lews Therin's mind back into his present, so that he realizes what he has done.

sburch: 2004-07-25

Could it be that when Rand went through the ter'angreal in Rhuidean it somehow "unlocked" his AOL memories. Him being ta'veren and reborn soul and all may have had unknown consequences. It is on the way from the waste to Cairhien that he mentions to Asmo about how Sammy had previously tried to bait him. I don't recall any prior direct link to LTT type thought, and as has been said Rand made up the voice after realizing he had AOL memories.

I'm new here so if I've repeated something that has been debunked in the past, just shoot me down. and if there was pre-Rhuidean LTT type thoughts please let me know.

Callandor: 2004-07-27

**Could it be that when Rand went through the ter'angreal in Rhuidean it somehow "unlocked" his AOL memories. Him being ta'veren and reborn soul and all may have had unknown consequences. It is on the way from the waste to Cairhien that he mentions to Asmo about how Sammy had previously tried to bait him. I don't recall any prior direct link to LTT type thought, and as has been said Rand made up the voice after realizing he had AOL memories.**

Not unless Rand went there before coming to Tear. He does a few things in the Stone that make it strongly evident he has knowledge similar to LTT then. First he sheds light on Lanfear, only one of the Forsaken or an AoLer (or someone who went out with her) would know. Then he makes the lightning seeking weave, which was described and matches perfectly in TEoTW when LTT kills all his kin and friends. Also, when Rand releases the weave, he can "almost hear" a voice saying "Now."

Main thing is that if Rand suddenly had these memories "released" into his head, he would go from farmer to the Rand in CoT. Yes, it is quite a big difference.

Over the last few books, LTT has become more and more prevelent in Rand's mind, and it is strongly related to Rand's channeling increase, more specifically, the more Rand channels, the more taint he takes in, the stronger LTT appears in his mind.

You can follow a simple timeline:

1. Rand starts channeling TEoTW - note: the Eye did not add to the voice of LTT. It was pure saidin.

2. Rand does not so much as have an angreal all through TEoTW, TGH, and TDR. No voices or memories. He does make a stop over at the giant sa'angreal, BUT he does not channel through it.

3. Big event - Rand acquires Callandor. In his fight with Ishamael he channels more saidin, and gets more taint, then ever before his channeling life, and most likely more then any other male channeler since the AoL.

4. Rand's first indication of things he should not know - already mentioned.

**TITLE: Shadow Rising

CHAPTER: 9 - Decisions

"And you loved power!" For a moment he felt dazed. The words sounded true-he knew they were true-but where had they come from?**

5. Big event - Rand uses Callandor to destroy Shadowspawn throughout the Stone of Tear, and tries to revive a dead girl. Large amounts of saidin used, most likely less then the amount used against Ishamael, but still a lot.

The "Now" quotes:

**TITLE: Shadow Rising

CHAPTER: 10 - The Stone Stands

Now. The thought floated like cackling laughter on the rim of his awareness. He severed the flows rushing out of him, leaving the think still whirling, whinning like a drill on bone. Now.**

And the Lightnings:

**TITLE: Shadow Rising

CHAPTER: 10 - The Stone Stands

And the lightnings came, flashing out along the ceiling left and right like silver streams. A Myrddraal stepped out of a side corridor, and before it could take a second step half a dozen flaring streaks struck it down, blasting it apart. The other streams flowed on, fanning down every branching of the corridor, replaced by more and more erupting every second.**

Matching what Lews Therin did:

**TITLE: Eye of the World

CHAPTER: Prologue - Dragonmount

The palace still shook occasionally as the earth rumbled in memory, groaned as if it would deny what had happened. Bars of sunlight cast through rents in the walls made motes of dust glitter where they yet hung in the air. Scorch-marks marred the walls, the floors, the ceilings. Broad black smears crossed the blistered paints and gilt of once-bright murals, soot overlaying crumbling friezes of men and animals, which seemed to have attempted to walk before the madness grew quiet. *The dead lay everywhere, men and women and children, struck down in attempted flight by the lightings that had flashed down every corridor, or seized by the fires that had stalked them, or sunken into stone of the palace, the stones that had flowed and sought, almost alive, before stillness came again.* In odd counterpoint, colorful tapestries and paintings, masterworks all, hung undisturbed except where bulging walls had pushed them awry. Finely carved furnishings, inlaid with ivory and gold, stood untouched except where rippling floors had toppled them. The mind twisting had struck at the core, ignoring peripheral things.**

6. Rand acquires an angreal. His regular channeling can increase at least twice over.

7. Big event - Rand's fight with Asmodean involving the Choedan Kal. Granted, it is only half the power that Rand could draw through it (since Asmodean is taking an equal half), but that is still way over the amount of saidin channeled in Tear. Plus, Rand channels through the angreal to cut him off from the Dark One, then to cause a giant rift line down Rhuidean to the underground lake.

8. Rand being taught by Asmodean - more and more constant use of saidin, more and more taint.

9. Big event - TFOH - Rand's first hearing of Lews Therin in his head. Also in the same chapter is mention of Moiraine as Little Sister (just like Ishamael in the Prolouge TEOTW "if only you had one of your Sisters here." or something along the lines), and a referance to being burried in a Can Breat.

Note: Very, very interesting that Lews Therin makes two giant leaps forward in appearence when two giangantic events of channeling in Rand's life take place - Callandor and the fight with the Choden Kal with Asmodean.

Little Sister:

**TITLE: Fires of Heaven

CHAPTER: 2 - Rhuidean

He concentrated on her. "What do you want of me?" His voice sounded flat and cold to his own ears. The Power stormed inside him. Egwene had told him that for a woman, touching saidar, the female half of the Source, was an embrace; for a man, always, it was a war without mercy. *"And don't mention wagons again, little sister.* I usually find out what you mean to do long after it is done."

The Aes Sedai frowned at him, and no wonder. She was surely not used to being addressed so, not by any man, even the Dragon Reborn. *He had no idea himself where "little sister" had come from; sometimes of late words seemed to pop into his head.* A touch of madness, perhaps. Some nights he lay awake till the small hours, worrying about that. Inside the Void, it seemed someone else's worry.**

Exactly like Moghedien says:

**TITLE: Fires of Heaven

CHAPTER: 18 - A Hound of Darkness

*"Do you think that you are my equal, little sister?"* Moghedien grimaced in disgust. "Did you stand in the Pit of Doom to dedicate your soul to the Great Lord? Did you taste the sweetness of victory at Paaran Disen, or the bitter ashes at the Asar Don? You are a barely trained puppy, not the packmistress, and you will go where I point until I see fit to give you a better place. These others thought themselves more than they are, too. Do-you wish to try your strength against me?"**

And Ishamael in TEoTW:

**TITLE: Eye of the World

CHAPTER: Prologue - Dragonmount

Tossing back his black cloak, Elan Morin flexed his hands. *"A pity for you," he mused, "that one of your Sisters is not here.* I was never very skilled at Healing, and I follow a different power now. But even one of them could only give you a few lucid minutes, if you did not destroy her first. What I can do will serve as well, for my purposes." His sudden smile was cruel. "But I fear Shai'tan's healing is different from the sort you know. Be healed, Lews Therin!" He extended his hands, and the light dimmed as if a shadow has been laid across the sun.**

Then, Can Breat:

**TITLE: Fires of Heaven

CHAPTER: 2 - Rhuidean

"I do have a plan." If they wanted to know, let them know, and he would be burned if he changed a word. "First, I mean to put an end to the wars and killing, whether I started them or not. If men have to kill, let them kill Trollocs, not each other. In the Aiel War, four clans crossed the Dragonwall, and had their way for better than two years. They looted and burned Cairhien, defeated every army sent against them. They could have taken Tar Valon, had they wanted. The Tower couldn't have stopped them, because of your Three Oaths." Not to use the Power as a weapon except against Shadowspawn or Darkfriends, or in defense of their own lives, that was another of the Oaths, and the Aiel had not threatened the Tower itself. Anger had him in its grip now. Running and hoping, was he? "Four clans did that. What will happen when I lead eleven across the Spine of the World?" It would have to be eleven; small hope of bringing in the Shaido. "By the time the nations even think of uniting, it will be too late. *They'll accept my peace, or I'll be buried in the Can Breat." A discordant plunk rose from the harp, and Natael bent over the instrument, shaking his head.* In a moment the soothing sounds came again.**

And finally, Lews Therin first speaks:

**TITLE: Fires of Heaven

CHAPTER: 2 - Rhuidean

Ilyena never flashed her temper at me when she was angry with herself. When she gave me the rough side of her tongue, it was because she. . . His mind froze for an instant. He had never met a woman named Ilyena in his life. But he could summon up a face for the name, dimly; a pretty face, skin like cream, golden hair exactly the shade of Elayne's. This had to be the madness. Remembering an imaginary woman. Perhaps one day he would find himself having conversations with people who were not there.**

10. Rand's constant setting of Wards using the angreal to entirely cover the camp. More taint.

11. Battle of Cairhien. Rand uses the angreal continuously for an entire day. Lots more taint.

12. Rand's two fights in one day between Lanfear, using the angreal, and taking the Aiel to Caemlyn, then his fight with Rahvin, again using the angreal, and creates the biggest usage of balefire seen in the books so far. Lots, lots more taint.

13. Rand continues to use the angreal and regular constant channeling through LoC, and Lews Therin's appearence only increases - Rand clearly remembers encounters with the Forsaken, all their ticks and history, and Old Tongue words are floating over from LTT to him.

14. From LoC to WH, Rand's almost totally constant usage of saidin cuppled with LTT become almost a long lost friend to Rand, and even at times seeming sane, and Rand even starts having dreams of the Collapse of the AoL.

15. Major event - Cleansing of the Taint. Well, Rand's problems won't increase anymore, just that in doing so he channeled enough that I am willing to bet no person, even in the AoL, in their entire life equaled. No doubt at all, Rand has channeled more tainted saidin in the entire Third Age.

16. Post-Cleansing - CoT.

**TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight

CHAPTER: 24 - A Strengthening Storm

I don't want to kill her. Rand thought at the dead man. I can't afford for her to die. Lews Therin knew that as well as he, but the man grumbled under his breath anyway. *Since Shadar Logoth, he seemed a touch less mad, sometimes.* Or maybe Rand was a touch more. After all, he took talking to a dead man in his head as a matter of every day, and that was hardly sane.**

Need I say more about the effects?

I really feel I don't have to argue the effects of the taint as a rotting component (see Moiraine's staff from the Ways, the Ways themselves, the Seals, and the Rotting Disease).

So what does the taint rot in Rand? The barrier between his past life (as LTT) and his present life.

In Tel'aran'rhiod, thanks to Birgitte, we know that the Heroes remember all their previous lives like books well read.

**TITLE: Shadow Rising

CHAPTER: 52 - Need

"I am Birgitte," the woman said, leaning on her bow. "At least, that is the name you would know. And the lesson might have been yours, here as surely as in the Three-fold Land. *I remember the lives I have lived as if they were books well- read, the longer gone dimmer than the nearer, but I remember well when I fought at Lews Therin's side.* I will never forget Moghedien's face, any more than I will forget the face of Asmodean, the man you almost disturbed at Rhuidean."**

However, any person reborn has no idea of any past life at all, even Heroes. Birgitte herself remarks that Gaidal Cain would have no idea of who he is when reborn.

**TITLE: The Fires of Heaven

CHAPTER: 14 - Meetings

If Birgitte was right, then somewhere in the world a boychild had been born, a mewling babe with no knowledge of who he was, yet destined for adventures that would make new legends. The Wheel wove the heroes into the Pattern as they were needed, to shape thc Pattern, and when they died they returned here to wait again. That was what it meant to be bound to the Wheel. New heroes could find themselves bound so as well, men and women whose bravery and accomplishments raised them far above the ordinary, but once bound, it was forever.**

So, how can Heroes remember their past lives in Tel'aran'rhiod, but have absolutely no memory of them when reborn? Simple. There is a barrier between past lives, and their present incarnation.

An analogy that I like, is a jar. Inside the jar, are the present life's memories. The lid, the "barrier", is the cap over them. The "air" outside the the jar, are all the past lives' memories.

So what? Well, (here's minor supposition in my opinion, for osme others it's tremendous) the taint breaks down the barrier (the lid).

If you were to take the jar analogy, if you took a eye dropper and sprinkled a few dropplets of acid (the taint) on the lid, holes would of course appear. Small at first, but with more and more dropplets, larger and larger holes.

With these "holes" in the lid, the past memories can go through the holes, and mingle with the present memories (think of osmosis).

So you have Rand al'Thor, first starting out touching saidin, and realizing nothing is going on really. But, as he channels more and more saidin, specifically at the points where he is allowed access to an angreal, sa'angreal or using it more (key ones I mentiond above), the more taint enters his body, and more "acid dropplets" fall on the "lid" and more memories can cross the barrier.

This osmosis of memories, coupled with the (hehe) "basic" insanity that the taint causes, they merge together and form the alternate personality of Lews Therin Telamon.

We have proof of this happening.

**TITLE: Lord of Chaos

CHAPTER: 3 - A Woman's Eyes

He hesitated, heron-branded palm stroking his long sword hilt. He had no idea what a gholam was. Lews Therin had not stirred, but he knew that was the source of the name. *Bits and pieces sometimes drifted across whatever thin barrier lay between him and that voice, and became part of Rand's memories, usually without anything to explain them. It happened more often, lately.* The fragments were not something he could fight, like the voice. The hesitation lasted only a moment.**

Very interesting it's happening more often, after channeling more ;).

**TITLE: Lord of Chaos

CHAPTER: 21 - To Shadar Logoth

Duty is heavier than a mountain, death lighter than a feather. Lews Therin had to have that from him—memories passed both ways across that barrier, it seemed—but it cut to the heart.**

1. There is a barrier between past a present lives, for at least the Heroes of the Horn, for which we know the Dragon to be apart of.

2. We know the taint destroyed objects with its nature.

3. We know Rand has channeled more of tainted saidin then at least anyone in the Third Age, if not anyone in the AoL.

4. We know that with an increase in channeling saidin, is an increase in the presence of Lews Therin in Rand's mind (if you really want to play devil's advocate, you can say this applies for the Third Man as well, but I won't go there ;)).

Saldean Farm Boy: 2004-07-29

I am just a youngling around here but here are my two cents anyway.

I think Lewis Therin is alive in Rand's head my points are the many instances where he has argued with a Forsaken and said somthing true from the AOL. More specificaly true about the forsaken personaly. These thoughts could not come from the taint if they are true.

Also when Rand chased Rahvin into the Dream World "someone" tried to take over his body, his very imiage started changing into the imiage of Lewis Therin, I think this was Lewis trying to take over.

In the Last Battle I think Lewis Therin will take over or Rand will finally submit to him.

This would fit the Prophecy.

"Twice and twice he shall be marked

twice to live and twice to die. Once the heron to set his path twice the heron to name him true. Once the Dragon for remembrance lost twice the Dragon for the price he must pay."

Twice the dragon because Lewis Therin takes over thus the true "Dragon" lives a second time. Twice to die because after Lewis dies Rand lives his out his live and dies a second time.

There it is, rip it up.

MageDawson: 2004-07-31

I think that the voice is Lews Therin. Note I wrote voice not voices. Has Rand spoke of any other voices? None that I recall.

The voice in Rand's head is just too different from him and has too much new information...so it's not part of the taint madness.

I believe that Lews is going mat along with Rand. The vioce was more sane to start with .....and not it rambles a lot.

Well that what I thought.

Celana: 2004-08-03

Okay, this is just a thought and something that has tickled the back of my brain since the Prologue of TEotW. The way Lews Therin died has always seemed kind of open ended to me, it has bothered the crap out of me. There was no sense of completion. No body, no funeral, etc. Lews "died" in an extrordinary way, a way that definitely destroyed his body, but what about his soul? The amount of saidin needed to create Dragonmout should only be accessable through the use of a powerful sa'angreal, yet LTT did it unaided. What if he inadvertently did something to himself in the process? He doesn't die completely, but the Pattern needs him and forces him to be reborn anyway. Ordinary people just DON'T remember their past lives. Sure, male channelers have been known to hear voices, but I don't remember any indication that they had memories from their past lives to go along with them. There's something special in the fact that LLT tries to take over Rand's body. I dunno. Tell me if I'm just a Youngling talking out of by bum hole.

Oh yeah, I think that the fact that Ishamael healed LTT of the taint, proves that Rand can be healed. Now we have to figure out how!

dementia: 2004-08-17

First of all I don't think Lew is mad because of the taint or the maddness he had before his bodies death.

He is stuck in another man's head, suffering from the knowledge that he murdered Ilyna, and that allthough he should have died (he says that all the time) he didn't.

I agree that when Lews pulled in all that power he managed to break his soul from his body or something like that so that he lives on as sort of a second personality. One soul. One body. Two personalities fighting to be the dominant.

I can't beleive that he's simply nuts since Lews has given him so much information he couldn't have made it all up (and if he's nuts his brain had to manufacture all that info).

: 2004-09-08

okay, this is a very complex argument, and me being relatively new to the series compared to most, if not all, of u out there, im not sure how well my thoughts will hold up.

Rand IS lews therin reborn, same soul, just another life for one of the great heroes of the horn. as such to start with he has none of the memories of LTT, however it has become quite clear that the voice in rands head is lews therin, there have been to many rantings and ravings about ilyena for it to be anyone else.

I dont recall anything that states that ishy actually healed lews in tEotW he just suggested that he (or the DO) could. therefore we still have a mad LTT probably with a voice in his own head (this could account for the mysterious other that rand cant hear but LTT apparently can) when he does a runner and tops himself, his soul went back to T'A'R like any other hero of the horn to await being reborn, the problem here being that now we have a soul with the light alone nows how many lifetimes of memories, not just the incarnation of LTT that much is certain. so when rand comes along, starts channeling, goes a bit mad gets a voice in his head, why is it that he only gets LTT and not every other previous incarnation of the dragon soul. still the question remains, why only one of many personalities, maybe this is because LTT was the last incarnation and eventually the voice will stretch to being more, though I seriously doubt this. so there u have my opinions and another question, why is it only 1 personality that rand can hear, and why that 1 in particular.

I would also like to point out that other ashaman who are suffering from the sickness of the taint do here voices, perrin noted that they seemed to talk to themselves, they just dont have the dragon in their heads, just some joe nobody who might or might not have been able to channel.

Callandor: 2004-09-08

**so there u have my opinions and another question, why is it only 1 personality that rand can hear, and why that 1 in particular.**

We have a second voice that showed up in CoT (or at least the only thing locigal at this point would be a second voice).

And, I take it you favor that Rand converses with the actual personality of Lews Therin, not a construction of Rand's own madness?

**I would also like to point out that other ashaman who are suffering from the sickness of the taint do here voices, perrin noted that they seemed to talk to themselves, they just dont have the dragon in their heads, just some joe nobody who might or might not have been able to channel.**

Hate to burst your bubble, but simply talking to yourself, does not make you mad. Heck, I do it everyday, and I am, as far as I know, sane. Egwene talks to herself, Nynaeve talks to herself (really interesting, Nynaeve has a "voice" in her head that will chastize her (I know! It's her last reincarnation!); it's Nynaeve doing it herself), Faile talks to herself, Perrin talks to himself, Mat talks to himself; many, many, people talk to themselves, and it is not a sign of madness. The only ways you can say a person is talking to a fictional voice (hearing them requires the first) are:

1. Their Point of View.

2. A scene like with Rand, where it becomes bloody solid as stone that he is arguing with someone not there, and demanding that they show up. That's pretty hard to explain away besides a voice.

Darkelve: 2004-10-06

I think there is one oversight when people talk about LTT being real or not, 1 or 2 sould -or possibly just a 'mind'- in Rhands body/head.

Which is in the following Paragraph:

"But, I fear Shai'tan's healing is different from the sort you know"

Which lead me to believe LTT was 'healed' by Ishamael using the True Power. What I am missing in these theories is how the use of the True Power at that time could have influenced LTT at that time, either directly, or in a lingering state. That is my main point here. This possibly as a part of the Dark Ones plans to 'use' LTT to get Rhand over to the dark side or make him loose Tarmon Gai'don. In other words: through making Ishamael heal LTT, the DO planted the seed for his coming victory. In that case, of course, Ishamael should have *some* knowledge of what the DO is (was) up to. Then again, it might all be accidental, resulting from Ishamaels hate for LTT.

Now, we know the taint on Saidin is caused by the Dark One. So suppose the 'taint' in Saidin actually *is* the True Power (or a part of it). This could mean that the TP is actually making *LTT* mad, not Rand. And possibly it influences Rand as well, which could explain why he seems to be going crazy so much faster that the other male channellers (e.g. Taim, 13 years, Owyn - 3years (?) )

fistandantilus: 2004-10-25

I don't understand how some people can doubt the actuall existance of the voice in Rand's head. This voice has given him all kinds of insight into the minds and personallities of the Forsaken, not to mention the physical descriptions of them. So the owner of this voice must have had some contact with them in the past. For example: the voice tells Rand the name of Lanfear, Mierin. This name has been lost for countless centuries. How would it know if it was just a second personallity in Rands head? Rand had no idea what her real name was, so this other personallity shouldn't, but it dors. If some one can prove to me how this personallity knows something Rand himself doesn't know, something the world as a whole didn't know until the Forsaken were freed, THEN I might give credence to the idea the it is all in Rands head(hahahaha!).

: 2004-10-25

OK, First I want to point out that of course LTT was heal of his insanity when he died. The mind was corrupted, not the soul.

Now on to the good stuff. It is not possible for a person to have two souls. When someone is reborn, the same soul is placed from one body to the next. Based on that, Rand can not have two souls. For that to even happen, that would mean someone else wasn't reborn. Simply impossible.

Now, for the voice. In my opinion, and as Bridget implys (see all above quotes), the soul remembers all past lives. The voice in Rand's head is LTT, just not his soul. It is LTT personality, memories, fears...everything that Rand expirenced in his past life. It is LTT personality that is talking to Rand.

Now the only question that remains is "HOW" is his personality talking to Rand? Good Question. You might go off of Callandor's theory about the taint braking down the barrier between Rand's current personality and that of LTT. The only problem with that is why doesn't every other Asha'man or False Dragon that could channel have the same gift/burden?

Another option is the creator himself. It is totally within his power to give Rand the ability to communicate with his past personallity. And I am a strong believer that it was him to talked to Rand at the end of tEotW. The problem with that though is why would he? And why did it take so long for LTT's personallity to start communicating with Rand's? Besides these two things I want to lean towards this one.

Yet another option is a conspiracy between the Forsaken. I will admit myself that this one is a far stretch but hey, anything is possible. And again, why would they. Unless they thought the out come would turn out differently. After all, they are not all knowing.

The reason I strongly believe it is LTT's personality is because even though Rand was asked if he hears voices that tell him what to do, LTT's voice has yet to control Rand in any obvious way. Half the time Rand does the exact opposite of what the Voice tells him to do. Plus, how would a figment of insanity have absolute facts about what only people from the AoL would have. Such as Lanfear's real name. It is mentioned several times that very little to nothing is known about her, not even her name. However, in tSR, Rand has a whole crap load of stuff that he knows about Lanfear. She even comments "How much do you remember Lews Therin?" There is also a time when Rand is talking to Sammual's "dummy" about a truce when Rand talks about a battle that happened between him and Sammual. HOW would he know all that if the voice was not real?

Lastly, I am still trying to puzzle out who the third voice/personallity is. I forget where or when, but LTT makes a comment about the "other one." He was talking to Rand at the time so he wouldn't call Rand that. My best guess to that would have to be the sane LTT. Meaning, when Rand aquired LTT's personality, he got the whole package so to speak. And, when LTT died, he was quite deffinetly insane. And most insane people have more then one personality of themselves. LTT would not have killed his whole entire family, however, Lews Therin Kinslayer would and did. So, when LTT personality was *transmigrated* into Rand's head, he also got LTK's personality. That would explain the occational bout of sanity that Rand comments on every now and then.

OK, there you have it, my most humble opinion on the matter. Tell me what you think.

Callandor: 2004-10-25

**I don't understand how some people can doubt the actuall existance of the voice in Rand's head. This voice has given him all kinds of insight into the minds and personallities of the Forsaken, not to mention the physical descriptions of them.**

I don't know anyone here who is doing that. My opinion of it is that Lews Therin is a fake voice in physical terms, but in Rand's mind, it's as real as any of his thoughts.

Plus, the memories Rand gets from the barrier being weakened, are definately real.

**For example: the voice tells Rand the name of Lanfear, Mierin. This name has been lost for countless centuries. How would it know if it was just a second personallity in Rands head?**

1. No, Rand said the name; he was never told.

2. Read the theories again.

Rand at the beginning is Rand.

Rand begins to channel, taint enters in, and begins to corode the barrier between past and present lives.

With a weakened barrier, memories from Lews Therin drift over into Rand's memories.

To explain these new memories to himself, coupled with just plain taint induced madness, a growing stress level which is astronomical, and the supression of his own emotions, Rand's personality splits and a second personality is formed with the memories: aptly named Lews Therin.

This personality, to Rand (and that is the key, all of this is to Rand's perspective), has the features of being a real voice, the dead voice of Lews Therin, in his head.

Granted, the memories are real, they do serve a purpose (giving him knowledge of things he is not supposed to know ordinarily), but the voice is a construct of Rand's.

**Rand had no idea what her real name was, so this other personallity shouldn't, but it dors.**

Because the memories from the past life are real; Rand really is Lews Therin reborn, and Lews Therin's memories are drifting over to Rand.

**If some one can prove to me how this personallity knows something Rand himself doesn't know, something the world as a whole didn't know until the Forsaken were freed, THEN I might give credence to the idea the it is all in Rands head(hahahaha!).**

Ok....

How about just all the quotes I have found about Rand's madness and memories associated with that?

**TITLE: Lord of Chaos

CHAPTER: 19 - Matters of Toh

Rand thought that he would sleep well that night. He was nearly tired enough to forget Alanna's touch, and more important, Aviendha was out in the tents with the Wise Ones, not undressing for bed with no regard for his presence, not disturbing his rest with the sound of her breathing. Something else made him toss, though. Dreams. He always warded his dreams, to keep the Forsaken out—and the Wise Ones—but warding could not keep out what was already inside. *Dreams came of huge white things like giant birdwings without the bird, sailing across the sky; of great cities of impossibly tall buildings, shining in the sun, with shapes like beetles and flattened water-drops speeding along the streets. He had seen all that before, inside the huge ter'angreal in Rhuidean where he had gained the Dragons on his arms, and knew them for images of the Age of Legends, but this time it was all different. Everything seemed twisted, the colors ... wrong, as though something had gone askew in his eyes. The sho-wings faltered and fell, each carrying hundreds to death. Buildings shattered like glass, cities burned, the fend heaved like storm-tossed seas. And time after time he faced a beautiful golden-haired woman, watched love turn to terror on her face. Part of him knew her. Part of him wanted to save her, from the Dark One, from any harm, from what he himself was about to do. So many parts of him, mind splintered in glittering shards, all screaming.***

**TITLE: Lord of Chaos

CHAPTER: 3 - A Woman's Eyes

He hesitated, heron-branded palm stroking his long sword hilt. *He had no idea what a gholam was. Lews Therin had not stirred, but he knew that was the source of the name. Bits and pieces sometimes drifted across whatever thin barrier lay between him and that voice, and became part of Rand's memories, usually without anything to explain them. It happened more often, lately. The fragments were not something he could fight, like the voice.* The hesitation lasted only a moment.**

Really like that one because it practically shouts outright what I have been saying, and also says Rand's condition is getting worse which goes along with the correlation between the more Rand channels and brings in taint, the worse Lews Therin becomes in his mind.

**TITLE: Lord of Chaos

CHAPTER: 21 - To Shadar Logoth

Duty is heavier than a mountain, death lighter than a feather. Lews Therin had to have that from him—*memories passed both ways across that barrier, it seemed*—but it cut to the heart.**

**TITLE: Fires of Heaven

CHAPTER: 43 - This Place, This Day

*A memory slid across the emptiness. Not his; Lews Therin's.* For once he did not care. In an instant he channeled, and a ball of fire enveloped the top of a hill nearly five miles away, a churning mass of pale yellow flame. When it faded, he could see without the looking glass that the hill was lower now, and black at the crest, seemingly melted. Between the three of them, there might be no need for the clans to fight Couladin at all.**

**TITLE: Fires of Heaven

CHAPTER: 44 - The Lesser Sadness

Vaguely it seemed that there had been no attack after.. . After what? *He recalled countering Sammael's last move with something particularly nasty, but he could not pull the memory to the surface.* Not balefire. Mustn't use that. Threatens the fabric of the Pattern. Not even for Ilyena? I would burn the world and use my soul for tinder to hear her laugh again.**

**TITLE: Fires of Heaven

CHAPTER: 52 - Choices

Heartbeats only. Three steps she had taken when Rand seized the male half of the True Source, molten steel and steel-shattering ice, sweet honey and midden heap. Deep in the Void, the fight for survival was distant, the battle before him scarely less. As Moiraine vanished beneath the wagon, he channeled, pulling the heat from Lanfear's fires, sinking it into the river. Flames that a moment before engulfed human forms, vanished. In the same instant he wove the flows again, and a misty gray dome came into being, a long oval enclosing him and Lanfear and most of the wagons, an almost transparent wall that shut out all not already within. *Even as he tied the weave, he was not sure what it was or where it had come from-some memory of Lews Therin's perhaps*-but Lanfear's fires struck it and stopped. He could see people outside dimly, too many thrashing and flailing-he had taken the flames, not the searing of flesh; that stench still hung in the air-but none would burn now that had not already. Bodies lay inside, too, mounds of charred cloth, some stirring feebly, moaning. She did not care; her channeled flames winked out; the gnats were dispelled; she never glanced aside.**

**TITLE: Fires of Heaven

CHAPTER: 22 - Birdcalls by Night

After a long silence, Asmodean said quietly, "I never knew that." "What I want to know is, why?" Rand chose his words carefully, hoping that they were all his. *He remembered Sammael's face, a man-~Not mine. Not my memory~-a compact man with a short yellow beard. Asmodean had described all the Forsaken, but he knew this image was not made from that description. Sammael had always wanted to be taller, and resented it that the Power could not make him so. Asmodean had never told him that.* "From what you've told me, he is not likely to want to face me unless he is sure of victory, and maybe not then. You said he'd likely leave me to the Dark One, if he could. So why is he sure he'll win now, if I decide to go after him?"**

Btw, that was Rand saying that to himself in his mind.

**TITLE: Fires of Heaven

CHAPTER: 20 - Jangai Pass

*Like Mar Ruois. He tried to shake the thought away, but in his head he could see that great city after it was retaken, immense towers blackened and collapsing, the remains of great bonfires at every street crossing, where those who had refused to swear to the Shadow had been bound and thrown alive to the flames. He knew whose memory it had to be, though he had not discussed it with Moiraine.* ~I am Rand al'Thor. Lews Therin Telamon is dead three thousand years. I am myself!~ That was one battle he meant to win. If he did have to die at Shayol Ghul, he would die as himself. He made himself think of something else.**

**TITLE: Fires of Heaven

CHAPTER: 6 - Gateways

Rand's face was like rock; he hoped it hid his shock. *He had no idea where his words had come from, but it seemed he could remember her. A dim memory, from before.* ~I am not Lews Therin Telamon! "I am Rand al'Thor!"~ he said harshly.**

**TITLE: Fires of Heaven

CHAPTER: 6 - Gateways

"Why would Rahvin choose now to attack me? Asmodean says he looks to his own interests, that he'll sit to one side even in the Last Battle, if he can, and wait for the Dark One to destroy me. Why not Sammael, or Demandred? Asmodean says they hate me." Not me. They hate Lews Therin. But to the Forsaken, that was the same thing. ~Please, Light, I am Rand al'Thor.~ *He pushed away a sudden memory of this woman in his arms, both of them young and just learning what they could do with the Power.* ~I am Rand al'Thor!~ "Why not Semirhage, or Moghedien, or Graen-?"**

**TITLE: Lord of Chaos

CHAPTER: 11 – Lessons and Teachers

With a bitter laugh he released the Power again and knelt there. He had been so sure. Only two Aes Sedai. Of course he could handle them; he had handled Egwene and Elayne together. What could they possibly do to him? He realized he was still laughing. He did not seem able to stop. Well, it was funny. His fool pride. Overconfidence. *It had gotten him in trouble before, and more than him. He had been so sure he and the Hundred Companions could seal the Bore safely....*

Leaves crackled as he forced himself to his feet. *“That was not me!” he said hoarsely. “That was not me! Get out of my head! All of you get out of my head!” Lews Therin's voice murmured indistinctly, distantly.* Alanna waited silently, patiently, in the back of his head. The voice seemed afraid of her.**

**TITLE: The Path of Daggers

CHAPTER: 21 – Answering the Summons

You must kill him before he kills you, Lews Therin giggled. They will, you know. Dead men can't betray anyone. The voice in Rand's head turned wondering. But sometimes they don't die. Am I dead? Are you?

Rand pushed the words down to a fly's buzzing, just on the edge of notice. *Since his reappearance inside Rand's head, Lews Therin seldom went silent unless forced. The man seemed madder than ever most of the time, and usually angrier as well. Stronger sometimes, too. That voice invaded Rand's dreams, and when he saw himself in a dream, it was not always himself at all that he saw.* It was not always Lews Therin, either, the face he had come to recognize as Lews Therin's. Sometimes it was blurred, yet vaguely familiar, and Lews Therin seemed startled by it, too. That was an indication how far the man's madness went. Or maybe his own.**

**TITLE: Lord of Chaos

CHAPTER: 21 - To Shadar Logoth

Rand blinked. Does Demandred have some connection to Shadar Logoth? To here? *I remember at last killing Ishamael. There was a sense of wonder in the voice, at a new discovery.* He deserved to die. Lanfear deserved to die, too, but I am glad I was not the one to kill her. Was it just happenstance that the voice seemed to speak to him? Was Lews Therin hearing, answering? How did I—did you kill Ishamael? Tell me how.**

And the quote that I believe deals directly with what you asked:

**TITLE: Winter's Heart

CHAPTER: 33 - Blue Carp Street

There were meat pies called pasties when I was a boy, Lews Therin murmured. We would buy them in the country and....**

Says it all right there doesn't it? Rand did not know of these pasties, the world did not know, yet Lews Therin, from his memories, knew. Interesting.

fistandantilus: 2004-10-27

What I meant by doubting the exsistance of the voice is doubting that it is Lews Therin, not just a personallity made up by Rand to encompass the memories in his head. Lews Therin was healed by Ish, but we have no indication that it was a permanent healing, so he could still be affected by the taint. For all we know, Ish knew Lews would kill himself, so only gave him a few moments of lucidity. The breaking down of the barrier could explain why Lews was able to come through in the first place and actually make contact with rand.

brother of Battles: 2004-10-27

The reply just before Callandor's was mine. I thought I was logged on, but I guess not.

Also, just want to say that most of the quotes you used Callandor doesn't really help you. With you saying that Rand's insanity created the voice and all. I will say though that you still might be on to something with the breakdown of the barrier, but I still want to know why it doesn't happen to anyone else.

Most of the quotes you used only makes what most people are saying even stronger. That the voice is not Rand's creation at all.

Oh and here is another twist. What if the voice was created in some way to ward off the insanity? Instead of Rand going insane, the voice takes on the taint and goes from insane to psyco without Rand getting the full force of the blow?

fistandantilus: 2004-11-04

So Callandor, you are saying that the memories are Lews Therin's, but the voice is a defense mechanism in Rand's mind to cope with the memories that are not his. This does not explain how this made up personality tries to take control of Saidin from Rand, or sieze the Source when Rand doesn't want to. Actively trying to draw the OP when Rand is not holding it seems to me to indicate more than just a bunch of memories with a voice attached to it. This voice, though obviously not rational, is capable of taking action. If Rand truly was a scizophrenic, he would be having periods of blackouts when Lews, or this made up personality, was in control. This doesn't happen. He has to actively wrestle with the thing in his head to keep control of the Power. And he has to fight to keep physical control of himself, too, as shown in the incedent of the almost smashed Seal.

The way Lews acts in Rands head seems more like the way the gunslinger acted when in other peoples heads in Stephen King's "Drawing of the Three." He was looking through their eyes, had access to their memories, but had to "come forward," had to actively take control over the other person. Lews acts in much the same way. He knows what he knows, sees what Rand sees, but tries to take physical control over Rand's body by force. He also chooses when to share what he knows with Rand. So far we have not seen Rand rifling the the memories in this "construct". We have seen those memories come into play when Rand needs something, but that could be Lews realizing the need to do something that he knows how to do. The way you are saying it seems to me to say that not all of Lews' memories have crossed the border. It seems too coincidental to me that the info Rand needs is there every time.

fistandantilus: 2004-11-05

I just finished reading TDR again, and towards the end, when Ishy first shows up, I found a quote that is starting to make me believe that Ishy is in part responsible for the voice.

Title: The Dragon Reborn

Chapter: 55 What Is Written in Prophecy

Page: 652-653, paperback

"Ba'alzamon's blow struck him as he leaped, *struck inside him, a ripping and crumpling, tearing something loose, trying to pull a part of him away.* Rand screamed. He felt like an empty sack, as if he were being turned inside out."

This "tearing something loose" could have been the barrier separating him from his past lives. Possibly Ishy had a back up plan to drive Rand mad in case he lost again? Having another man's voice inside his head would be, and seems to be, quite capable of driving him insane.

Callandor: 2004-11-06

**So Callandor, you are saying that the memories are Lews Therin's, but the voice is a defense mechanism in Rand's mind to cope with the memories that are not his. This does not explain how this made up personality tries to take control of Saidin from Rand, or sieze the Source when Rand doesn't want to. Actively trying to draw the OP when Rand is not holding it seems to me to indicate more than just a bunch of memories with a voice attached to it.**

It's really Rand doing it subconsciously.

Have you ever seen Dr. Strangelove: Or How I Learned to Stop Worrying And Love the Bomb? Dr. Strangelove's hand moves on it's own accord, contrary to what he wants (in extremely humorous ways :-P); however, it is still his hand, of his body, for which, his mind controls.

The same thing happens with Rand. Instead of his hands, he has created an alternate personality (so really, it is a part of him), and it seems to do things Rand does not want to do; yet it is Rand's link to saidin, through his body, not Lews Therin's.

The biggest step to Rand finally coming back to "normal", I believe, will be if Lews Therin "takes control."

In this, Rand will realize he himself is controlling saidin, and realize Lews Therin, is a manifestation of his own insanity.

**This voice, though obviously not rational, is capable of taking action.**

Proof? Can you give me a quote or inference where it is shown that Rand cannot be doing it himself, unknowingly.

**If Rand truly was a scizophrenic, he would be having periods of blackouts when Lews, or this made up personality, was in control. This doesn't happen. He has to actively wrestle with the thing in his head to keep control of the Power. And he has to fight to keep physical control of himself, too, as shown in the incedent of the almost smashed Seal.**

Rand doesn't truely have schizophrenia; he doesn't truely have multiple personality disorder either (if that was what he had, there would be periods for substantial time where he was acting as Lews Therin, and would not remember ever changing; he (in his perception of events) would appear to sleep for months, but really has been active the entire time; as you have said, this has not happened). Rand has many things associated with mental disorders though. And like many other things RJ has done, he has merged some things together, instead of making a carbon copy of a syndrome.

And I would like to point out, that even with all the times Lews Therin has tried to take control, he never has.

**He knows what he knows, sees what Rand sees, but tries to take physical control over Rand's body by force.**

I have not read the Dark Tower books, however, you do not explain how Rand knows what Lews Therin "knows", if they truely were seperate identities.

**He also chooses when to share what he knows with Rand. So far we have not seen Rand rifling the the memories in this "construct". We have seen those memories come into play when Rand needs something, but that could be Lews realizing the need to do something that he knows how to do. The way you are saying it seems to me to say that not all of Lews' memories have crossed the border. It seems too coincidental to me that the info Rand needs is there every time.**

Oh boy, errors here.

1. Of course it's coincidental when Rand suddenly knows a weave to save his life; he is ta'veren.

2. I do not state that Rand has access to all of Lews Therin's memories. They would be completely merged then. The barrier between Rand's present life and past life is severely weakened and memeories have drifted across, but not all of them; a castle wall, though weakened, is still a wall.

3. It's not like Lews Therin decides what memories to fling into Rand's head. They come over whenever they do.

4. Yes, there are examples of Rand having memories other then knowing a weave; what I have been trying to say is far beyond simple survival weaves and sudden bursts of knowledge.

Some good examples are all listed above.

Probably the best piece of proof for this idea:

**TITLE: Lord of Chaos

CHAPTER: 3 - A Woman's Eyes

He hesitated, heron-branded palm stroking his long sword hilt. He had no idea what a gholam was. *~Lews Therin had not stirred, but he knew that was the source of the name.~ Bits and pieces sometimes drifted across whatever thin barrier lay between him and that voice, ~and became part of Rand's memories, usually without anything to explain them.~ It happened more often, lately. ~The fragments were not something he could fight,~ like the voice.* The hesitation lasted only a moment.**

1. The memory fragments come across no matter what Rand tries to do.

2. They come across without Rand knowingly searching for them.

3. They come across without Lews Therin partaking any action.

(4.) I would just like to point out that Rand recognizes that the process is speeding up (going with my idea, the more Rand takes in taint, the more the barrier degrades, the more memories come across). If Rand and Lews Therin were seperate, and "live", why would this be? Shouldn't it be an all or nothing gift? Rand goes from knowing absolutely nothing about the AoL, to knowing everything Lews Therin does. Not the case here.

: 2004-11-06

First off, lets just say that the analogy made to "The Drawing of Three" is perfect... its almost exactly the same as how Lews seems to function.

As well, it seems hard to attribute some of Lews Therin's motivations to Rand's Subconscious (IE, the Seal incident... Rand, subconsciously or otherwise has no reason to break the Seal... Lews might know something we dont...). As well, Therin's autonomy seems to point strongly to other than a psychopathic 'voice'. "voices" tell people to burn things; Lews Therin TRIES to burn things himself (addmitadly, in addittion to telling Rand to do some things...).

As far as the voice being mad... well, it seems to me that Lews is NOT taint-mad. Mainly, I derive this from his laments over Ilyena, and his wanting to kill the Asha-Man (primarily Ilyena). In EOTW, he is completely unaware of the destruction and death he has caused: Ishmael healed him. His (Lews') current state of madness can easily be accounted for by the fact that Lews' learned he, you know, killed everyone he cared about and has had 3000 years to dwell on it.

So is Lews Therin real? Rand thinks so, and so do I.

Callandor: 2004-11-07

**This "tearing something loose" could have been the barrier separating him from his past lives. Possibly Ishy had a back up plan to drive Rand mad in case he lost again? Having another man's voice inside his head would be, and seems to be, quite capable of driving him insane.**

It's Ishamael trying to steal Rand's soul; he says he is doing that right before he attempts ;)

Gardener: 2004-12-05

Ok, Ok get this yo. What if when Lews Therin Balefired himself in the AoL he altered something in the wheel of time, and now some of the memories lost where brought back when the Wheel spit him out into his new body and that Rand now has memories of LTT and still has sort of a different set of memories for himself.

Now I know that noone is gonna either get that or agree with it if they do but if nothing like that is true maybe then there was something different.

What if the voices in his head are caused by Ishmeal's healing in the AoL and caused him to remember things from that age. and then those memories are twisted yet again by the taint and madness. Or its someone physically adding those memories or just creating them to rands mind.

Keep in mind that when he embraces the source he gets sick and sees the face of someone he doesn't recognise. so maybe that someone is adding those memories or adding them to his memories.

Maybe its someone from TAR doing this to help him to the last battle, but I'm sure that its either a mix between LTT's memories and the sickness or neither.

jason wolfbrother: 2004-12-06

just one problem with that Gardener. LTT did not balefire himself. here is the quote. again ;)

***TITLE: Eye of the World

CHAPTER: Prologue - Dragonmount

"Light, forgive me! Ilyena!" The air turned to fire, the fire to light liquefied. The bolt that struck from the heavens would have seared and blinded any eye that glimpsed it, even for an instant. From the heavens it came, blazed through Lews Therin Telamon, bored into the bowels of the earth. Stone turned to vapor at its touch. The earth thrashed and quivered like a living thing in agony. Only a heartbeat did the shining bar exist, connecting ground and sky, but even after it vanished the earth yet heaved like the sea in a storm. Molten rock fountained five hundred feet into the air, and the groaning ground rose, thrusting the burning spray ever upward, ever higher. From north and south, from east and west, the wind howled in, snapping trees like twigs, shrieking and blowing as if to aid the growing mountain ever skyward. Ever skyward.***

That is not what happens with balefire. Sorry

Ared: 2004-12-06

Okay, this is my opinion on the subject:

1) All men that channel hear voices as a result of the taint.

2) The voice in Rand's head tells him rational things to do and yet the rest of the time is irrational.

3) Rand is Lews Therin Reborn, so it can't be Lews in his head, because he is Lews.

Therefore, I think the only logical explanation is that it is an intuitive instinct all men gifted in channeling receive that manifests itself in the form of a voice because of the taint. If there wasn't a taint, that intuitive instinct would be just a natural "inventiveness" that we often see in female and male channelers. Thats my take on it all, hope you like it!

Githraine: 2004-12-07

Gardener, LT did not Balefire himself. I believe RJ has said this, and if he had, then the whole scene with Ishy would not have happened. For that matter, as large as that bolt was his family might have come back.

Comparisons to Brigitte really don't make much sense either, her situation is completly different from Rand's. I think most people who know what is going on with Rand (people in the books, that is) have stated that as Rand is a specific person reborn, he is a special case. Until RJ specifically says otherwise, I have to beleive Rand does talk to the part of his soul that remembers being LT.

fistandantilus: 2004-12-08

1) LTT did not balefire himself. As far as we know, it is not possible. Balefire would have removed his thread from the pattern.

2) The only time it seems to be possible to get to someone from TAR is when they are sleeping, and Rand startied shielding himself soon after meeting Asmodean.

I wish to retract something said in one of my earlier posts. Lews Therin did not tell Rand Lanfear's name was Mierin, Rand heard Asmo call her that it a dream. My bad, sorry, apologize, etc.

Darkelve: 2004-12-12

Okay... I re-read the book and here is something interesting to think about.

The first time Rhand started to hear the voice inside his head, is after they returned from the Eye of The World. There is a passage where Rhand is "being held by the wind" and where the "air smelled like an open grave". I think that THIS is the spot in the book where Lews Therin somehow comes into Rhand's 'mind'.

Then when they pass near the male Choedan Khal, someone channels... I say this is NOT Rhand, but Lews Therin somehow... Rhand feels he channels, but he does not have a reason to, does not know what he is doing.

Finally, I think Lews Therin DOES exist, but not in the real world, but in Thell'anriod (or whatsitcalled).

And another thing, (actually not related to this, but interesting of its own): Min says there was something very strange with Aviendha's babies... and I think the cause of this is because they have been conceived in the Dream World.

Callandor: 2004-12-15

**The first time Rhand started to hear the voice inside his head, is after they returned from the Eye of The World. There is a passage where Rhand is "being held by the wind" and where the "air smelled like an open grave". I think that THIS is the spot in the book where Lews Therin somehow comes into Rhand's 'mind'.**

....

Why would that have any impact? Where is Lews Therin for the rest of the novels until he makes a known appearance in TFOH? Why is he in caps in The Eye of the World, and not later on?

The first confirmed instance of Lews Therin, is the knowledge that Lanfear loved power, and then the lightning weave and the voice saying "Now."

**Finally, I think Lews Therin DOES exist, but not in the real world, but in Thell'anriod (or whatsitcalled).**

Lews Therin is dead. He's been dead for over 3000 years. His soul was reborn as Rand al'Thor.

**And another thing, (actually not related to this, but interesting of its own): Min says there was something very strange with Aviendha's babies... and I think the cause of this is because they have been conceived in the Dream World.**

??? Aviendha is not pregnant at the moment. In case anyone thinks otherwise:

1. The bonding between first-sisters would've killed the child.

2. Nynaeve Delved her after the Seanchan confrontation in TPOD -- a thing like pregnancy would be detected.

Aiel Finn: 2004-12-16

I don't think anyone actually channeled when Rand found the CK, he just held the source. At that time Rand was having lots of trouble controling when he ended up holding the source. The temptaion alone might have done it.

Also, just after Rand was held by the wind on that tower, The tower was attacked and there was a Dark Prophesy talking about LANFEAR!!! Then she shadows him a little bit later. She says she is the master of T'A'R. Could she have done something to make her lover LTT come back to life in Rand?

Mad: 2005-01-05

Just checked in to read the responses, and I think you all seem to be flirting around what RJ is hinting at, but still missing. Let's try to analogize - not a perfect analogy, but close enough for explanation:

Instead of talking about the WoT, let's talk about Bob Smith, a 25 year old . . . I don't know . . . sailor. One day, Bob gets hit on the head with the mast of his ship, is knocked unconcious and overboard, and floats across the sea. When he wakes up, he can't remember who he is or where he came from. The people who found him, and eventually become his family, name him . . . Sid. Sid spends the next 25 years building a life for himself as a carpenter, and learning who and what it means to be Sid. During those 25 years, however, he also hears tales about the notorious Bob Smith . . . a horrible and cruel sailor from the other side of the sea . . . a man who did terrible things up until he died. Sid comes to believe these tales, and is as glad as anyone that Bob Smith fortunately died over a generation ago.

Then one day, Sid (as he now knows himself and views himself . . . he even likes himself) meets a woman who takes one look at him and says, "Oh my gosh, it's Bob Smith!" and hits him on the head with a 2x4. After waking up from the unfortunate blunt trauma, Sid has a flash of climbing a tree in a land he's never seen before. "Oh crud!" he yells, "Those aren't my memories! I'm imagining things, Bob Smith is dead!"

The next day, however, Sid runs across the same woman who called him Bob Smith, who tells him she knew Bob Smith, and he, Sid, was clearly Bob Smith, and then procedes to hit him in the head with a 2x4 again. When Sid awakens, this time he has a flash of a woman smiling at him while cleaning a fisherman's jacket. Sid's never been a fisherman. "Oh crud!" he cries . . . he's somehow seeing the memories of a dead man in his head. They're not his memories, because he's Sid. "You're cracking up." says the voice of Bob Smith in his head.

Now if this were a Philip K. Dick novel, we would all recognize Sid's schizophrenia as a defense mechanism. He honestly believes (or wants to believe) that he is not Bob Smith. He honestly believes that the memories of his former life are not his own. So naturally, his brain copes by placing his previous memories in the form of an alternate personality (which, as I remember, is quite different from Multiple Personality Disorder).

If we place Sid in a fantasy saga, and rename him Rand, and rename Bob LTT, and replace the 2x4 with the poison of Saidan (as Callandor's theory seems fairly self evident to me), you have the recipe for Rand's unfortunate affliction.

The real question here, however, is not what RJ's character is suffering from (because, after all, this is a fictional saga, and schizophrenia isn't that random as a plot device), but rather why.

Rand has to come to terms with who is is, was, and has to be. RJ's done a good job illustrating how tremendous that task has got to be in this universe. Rand has to accept the fact that he doesn't just share the same job description as LTT, he is LTT. To do that, he has to remember his previous life as his own(and the whole taint causing the breakdown of the natural order of things, while at the same time making it difficult for Rand to stay sane enough to understand what's happening is pretty clever) . . . and remembering his previous life as his own has got to take a toll on you when you've been raised to hate and fear the man you've just been told you once were. Yet, in order to save the world, Rand has to do just that . . . and the way RJ has drawn it out has been classic drama. And considering I'm (we're) unsure what the third face is or means, he's still got a little left in him.

white: 2005-01-11

I beleive that the voice in rands head is Lew Therin Kinslayer, but he is not the only one to know things that he shouldnt.

mat can understand the old tongue and without reading any books is an excelent stratagest and can plan battles. he is an excelent general and he is no older than perrin

The Dragons Advocate: 2005-01-23

I believe the voices in Rands head to be a result of the Taint. That the taint has manipulated thoughts from the soul of LTT and turned it into an immatation of LTT. Also the voice in his head rambles on about most of the same things, Ilyena, forsaken, killing Taim, and other irrelavant things. So my theory is that the madness has collected thoughts and memorys of LTT and manipulated it into a mad voice inside his head like all other men in the AoL had after the Taint was put on saidin

Darkshadow: 2005-03-26

This is the 1st time I've replied to a theory. Mostly I only watch and read what everyone else thinks but so far nobody has said this, so here
In the prologue of the eye of the world, Elan Morin (Ishamael) healed Lews Therin in his wierd "Dark One stemmed power".Later, in chapter 47 More Tales of the Wheel, Moirane says; "Pray that it does. There is much yet hiden about Padan Fain, much I must learn...It may be that the Dark One, in doing what he did to Fain, impressed some part of himself on the man..." Since we know that Ba'alzamon is really Elan Morin, then couldn't it be that he also left some impression on LTT when he healed him. And this could also be who LTT is talking about to Rand of the "other one" who is also a destroyer, because really, the man is responsible for most of the problems occuring over the last 3,000 years in Randland.

Just thought to put this in

kfsone: 2005-03-31

How is LTT "clearly" insane? He is only that if you take things, as presented at bare-face value.

Early on he is clearly still remorse and grief ridden. However - he is no crazier than Rand, and it seems clear to me that he is experiencing the same disembodied "someone in my head" that Rand is.

We're encouraged to think he's crazy because he keeps saying "my body" and things like that. Try and analyze that for a moment. Clearly LTT is more than just a voice, he is a soul or mind that appears to be experiencing Rand's life as though his own.

If you want to look for causes of the voice, consider the bizzare side-effects of crossing-balefire, presumably one or other channeler should have been destroyed, but since they were crossing two streams of balefire, the destruction cancelled itself out.

So suicide by balefire? Perhaps 3000 years of false dragons are attempts by the pattern to spit out LTT. But in the end it spits out a *new* LTT, and the fact that he was supposed to be LTT ties LTTs otherwise disembodied conscience to it. That would explain LTT's seeming craziness. In a sense he's having an "out of life" experience.

Something that struck me very early on in the series was the parallel between Dragonmount and Shayol Ghul.

If LTT is crazy, perhaps he is imprisoned in a similar way to the dark one, and being trapped rather than span out repeatedly is what's driving him crazy. How desperate will he become over another age - or two - wanting to get out. If Rand fights and destroys the current dark one, but LTT remains trapped until someone discovers a weak point in the pattern under "dragon'mount" an age later and bores a hole there, unleashing an utterly crazed LTT who will do anything to re-enter the pattern...

Darkshadow: 2005-04-01

ok. I just saw kfsone reply somthing that is just wrong. In an interview with Robert Jordan, he says that Rand and LTT are not two different souls in one body (which is what everyone believes) and i understood it as that they are two personalities. Check Wotmania or other websites to see for yourself

Callandor: 2005-04-01

**We're encouraged to think he's crazy because he keeps saying "my body" and things like that. Try and analyze that for a moment. Clearly LTT is more than just a voice, he is a soul or mind that appears to be experiencing Rand's life as though his own.**

Rand is the only soul. He is the Dragon's soul reborn. He is Lews Therin reborn. He does however have 2 personalities.

**If you want to look for causes of the voice, consider the bizzare side-effects of crossing-balefire, presumably one or other channeler should have been destroyed, but since they were crossing two streams of balefire, the destruction cancelled itself out.**

The balefire streams cross in ACOS; Lews Therin first appears in TFOH, and a "voice" is heard in TSR. Hard to be the source.

**If LTT is crazy, perhaps he is imprisoned in a similar way to the dark one, and being trapped rather than span out repeatedly is what's driving him crazy. How desperate will he become over another age - or two - wanting to get out. If Rand fights and destroys the current dark one, but LTT remains trapped until someone discovers a weak point in the pattern under "dragon'mount" an age later and bores a hole there, unleashing an utterly crazed LTT who will do anything to re-enter the pattern...**

Lews Therin died by overdosing on the One Power, (not balefire) at Dragonmount. He is not trapped there, because his soul has been reborn as Rand al'Thor.

Darkshadow: 2005-04-14

yeah, but in TEOTW, after Moiraine heals Tam, Rand has this bizzare dream where he see Shayol Ghul and feels as if he has seen that black mountain before. That was way before he heard a voice or began doing complicated weaves.

So we are still no closer into knowing how Rand has LTTs memories and personality

Merk: 2005-04-26

Could there be even more men in Rand's head? In PoD there is a part where Rand sees a himself with a blurry face he doesn't recognize, and LTT seems surprised to see the face. Anyone know what's going on here? Could this be the person who owned Rand/LTT's soul before LTT showing up in LTT's head (or the part of Rand's head that is LTT)?

Oy vey, now *my* head hurts...

Asmodean: 2005-04-28

maybe someone has said this..maybe not..but the thread is really long..read it a year ago...it has only grown since...and last I remember..this hasn't been brought up..but if it has..oh well..I seem to recall Rand having quite a few thoughts early in the first book that he wasn't sure was his own..and even had some conversations in his head..talking to himself in his head...this could be Lews Therin manifesting himself early on..or signs of Rand being insane since book one..he is Lews Therin reborn..and say Lews Therin is still mad..which judging by his ranting later on..he still is...but him and Rand weren't as insane early on..do to Ishy's "healing"..and the taint..TAR and what not only makes them more crazy...take it as u will..and if u all too lazy to go back and read book one and look at all Rand's thoughts...I will be happy to post all of them...unless Callandor beats me to it...if thats the case...let me know..so I don't repost them

JakOShadows: 2005-04-28

I think that Lews Therin and Rand's soul are one. Rand is basically Lews Therin and if he were an average person he would not be able to talk to him. I don't know if you've seen that movie with Robert Downey Jr.(I believe the name is "chances are"), but what happens is he goes to heaven and his soul gets recycled. What's supposed to happen is that he takes this shot, and his memories will be erased, but he leaves heaven and his soul gets recycled without getting the old memories removed. It seems to me like this is a lot of what is happening here. Don't you notice that the voices only appear in time of great stress or situations that Lews Therin can relate to. It just occurs more often now that Rand doing a lot more politics and leading of nations. And along with the memory, I believe the emotion was carried through too. This would cause a lot of insanity my part, if my soul was remembering me going mad and killing my lover. And the taint could also affect both memories if they're tied to the same soul. Whether this was done on purpose, I do not know. The creator could have given him these memories because he knew that he would need them to win the LB. And this would also comply with the theory that he will die twice, it could be that his memories of Lews Therin will be erased once he doesn't need them anymore, then he will actually physically die. This is the similar principle to the movie, except the Downey Jr. character actual lives, but he gets his memories erased after a traumatic fall.

Aiel Finn: 2005-04-29

Lews is not crazy, only EXTREMELY depressed. He killed everyone he loved, tried to commit suicide and now is trapped in Rand's head. That's enough to make anyone seem a bit odd.

: 2005-04-29

ok..before anyone else replies to this with their opinions..I really would suggest re-reading some chapters from book 1. I am re-reading it and strictly focusing on everyones thought patterns..all the words in italics...and noticed a big difference from Rands thoughts verses everyone elses..

Take Nynaeve for example...chapter 37..the long chase..here are her thoughts through out the chapter..I'll list all of them..if i miss one..ohwell..U'll see my point...

1. what were they doing

2. Light, I don't even know which one it is!

3. All will be well

4. Wlee, he is a warder. Some of the stories must be true.

5. So he thinks I'm good, does he?

6. Light blind the bloody man.

7. Oh, no?

8. One whinny.

9. just one whinny.

10. Time to go. With four horses out of five running loose, they won't be chasing anyone.

11. Why did Moiraine tell me I can use the Power? Why couldn't she leave me alone?

12. Light, make her do it now, before...

13. Wolves! Light help us! What is Moiraine doing?

Now lets look at Perrins thoughts in the next chapter...

1. Light, how do I make them believe we aren't Darkfriends when they're already convinced we are?

2. Think it through! Light help me, think it through and don't make any mistakes!

3. Help comes(wolves)

4. Elyas

5. One day again(wolves)

6. What was to come. What was to come?

7. I killed two men.

8. He knows, but does he think the same as Moiraine?

I know there are alot of useless thoughts there..but figured I would try to include all of them. But notice the use of the words I, and me. It shows that both Nynaeve and Perrin have thouts that are clearly their own..aside from perrins wolves..but still..both of them think in terms of most people.

Now lets look at Rand..I wont include all his thoughts..there is way too many..so I'll put the ones in that matter...

1. Trollocs. Light above, Trollocs! Creatures out of a gleeman's tale coming out of the night to bash in the door. And a Fade. Light shine on me, a Fade!(chapter 6)

2. He's my father. It was just a fever-dream. He's my father. It was just a fever-dream. Light, who am I?(chapter 6)

3. My father. The other was just the fever talking. (chapter 7)

4. (even more "my father" thoughts through out chapter 7)

5. My father. I can tell my father anything.(chapter 8)

Big Event: Rand channels for the first time.

6. Run. The light help her, run!(chapter 11)

Event: Rand acts like Lews Therin in his encounter with the Whitecloaks in Baerlon. Comes down with fever, hears small voice in his head saying somethings wrong.

skip to chapter 20

7. You have to at least make them think you're not afraid. You're doing a good job, wool-head! You'll get everybody out safely.

Big Event: Rand channels a second time..on Domon's ship...more tainted Saidin for our hero..

8. So it will all turn out like one of Thom's stories? The heroes find the treasure and defeat the villain and live happily ever after? Some of his stories don't end that way. Sometimes even heroes die. Are you a hero, Rand a;'Thor? Are you a hero sheepherder?(chap 26)

9. You know that, don't you?(chap 26)

10. Going to spend the rest of your life running, running and afraid of your own dreams.(chap 26)

11. A dream can't hurt? Do dreams draw real blood? Do you dare tell anybody? Ba'alzamon is in your dreams, but what's between dreaming and waking, now? Who do you dare tell that the Dark One is touching you?(chap 26)

12. (small voice whispering in his head) No matter what it looks like, it isn't really home. Even if you go into one of those houses Tam wont be there. If he was, could you look him in the face? You know, now, don't you? Except for the little things like where you come from and who you are. No fever-dreams.(taunting laughter) You might as well stop. One place is as good as another when you aren't from anywhere, and the Dark One has you marked.(chap 31)

13. So much like home, but you'll never see home again, will you?(chap 31)

14. You'll never see home again.(chap 31)

15. A reason that sends him to half the inns in town before he chooses the one where you are? A reason that makes him look at you as if he's found what he's searching for?(chap 32)

16. If you really did know more about using a sword than the few exercises Lan showed you..(chap 32)

Big Event: Rand channels a third time..even more tainted Saidin.

17. What protects you makes you vulnerable. I am going mad.(aint that the truth)

Keep in mind..I didn't include all of Rand's thoughts...only the ones important to my point. Notice how Rands thoughts before he first channeled are similar to those of Perrin and Nynaeve? Yes, he still has similar thoughts through out the series..where he uses me, I, and my. But not once did he use the word YOU in thought before he channeled. Only after..and the more he channeled..the more frequent the word YOU. Rand's thinking to himself in the second person..as if he is addressing someone else. Could this be the early manifestation of LTT? Could be..but it could also just be early signs of madness..seems how he doesn't start doing it until after he comes into contact with the taint. Hell, it could even be a little of both..why not eh? He most likely has MPD...cause in part by the Taint..some say going into TAR in the flesh also helped contribute to madness..but as u can see from his thoughts above..he seems to be going mad long before he entered TAR in the flesh. Some say how can Rand?Lews be insane..when they have gotten eachother out of some sticky situations? Well..the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills. Now are the voices real? Depends..yes..Rand really hears a voice...but since him and LTT are one and the same...it is not likely he litterally talks to the "soul" of LTT. He's going nuts..and developed an alter ego...and since Rand knows who he was..that he was LTT in a past life..it only makes sense to give that voice in his head the name and call him LTT. The voice, and personality..if u will..says things that are helpful and things Rand himself shouldn't know..because it is his memories of LTT drifting through. There is no way..none what so ever..that LTT is actually speaking to Rand. Why?..duh..read the prologue of book one. LTT died..OD'd on Saidin(not balefire like some may believe). LTT died..and was later reborn as Rand al'Thor. LTT is now Rand..not a voice in Rand's head. They are one and the same..both nuts...besides...makes for a better story if the fate of mankind falls on the shoulders of a madman. Sorry for the long post..but these points needed to be addressed. Hasta Luego!

Callandor: 2005-04-29

** I think that Lews Therin and Rand's soul are one.**

One soul, two personalities.

**Don't you notice that the voices only appear in time of great stress or situations that Lews Therin can relate to.**

Not always. Rand has dreams of Lews Therin's memories -- neither stress nor anything for Lews Therin to be relating to.

But if you want to put it in another way, it's almost always a situation as if Rand is ~remembering~ a memory.

**The creator could have given him these memories because he knew that he would need them to win the LB.**

Don't go too far on to the branch. The Creator does nothing but create. He does not interfere, ever. This would be a clear interference.

Callandor: 2005-04-30

You really should've posted this as an alternative theory, so it wouldn't matter if you quoted all the thoughts of the characters for a really long post (doesn't matter how long they are anyway), otherwise, it seems as if you're spinning it to your conclusion ;) Not the greatest thing, but oh well.

**He most likely has MPD...cause in part by the Taint..some say going into TAR in the flesh also helped contribute to madness..but as u can see from his thoughts above..he seems to be going mad long before he entered TAR in the flesh.**

To be technical, Rand does not have Multiple Personality Disorder. MPD is when a person's body is taken over by another personality, and then it returns to the other (or continues to yet another depending on how many it is). Lews Therin has not taken over Rand's body, and he certainly has not given control back (nor would he from what we know).

It's a merging of MPD and schizophrenia that Rand has. RJ has said Rand has two personalities, but Rand is Rand, and Lews Therin is just a "presence" so far; IE: he's much similar to abnormal people hearing/seeing/feeling things that in reality do not exist, than a person with MPD.

But, it's RJ's series and he writes it as he sees fit ;).

**The voice, and personality..if u will..says things that are helpful and things Rand himself shouldn't know..because it is his memories of LTT drifting through. There is no way..none what so ever..that LTT is actually speaking to Rand.**

But what caused the memories to get to Rand? That's a key part. If you believe they were always in Rand,and would've appeared by themselves, that's one view. The other is that the memories only came through because of the taint (other theories I'm sure exist, but really are just twists of these two points).

Darkshadow: 2005-06-13

This is just something that I read a while ago and saved because of how in depth in went in bringing psychology with what Rand is going through

Darkshadow: 2005-06-13

Rand and LTT--An Overview

What happens to the voice of Lews Therin Telemon in the end of Crown of Swords?

LTT is not gone, but he and Rand are becoming one integrated person, the Dragon Reborn (similar to the concept of humans being two persons, right-brain, left-brain, in one). Here's a brief synopsis of how it happened.

Rand is the Dragon Reborn.  In Book 3, The Dragon Reborn, Rand accepted the duty of being the Dragon Reborn, but he had not accepted the reality of being Lews Therin Telemon reborn.  And he must do this if he is going to defeat the Dark One.

Everybody in the Wheel of Time world is somebody reborn, but people are usually pretty much unconscious of their previous personalities.  The taint on saidin seems to break down the barrier between them, and this problem of more than one conscious person in one body seems to be part of the madness that affects male channelers.

For Rand, the problem seems worst when the two personalities mix together, screwing up all his instincts and reactions, both physical and emotional.  This is a major cause of the anger and rage that become so prevalent in his character.

Sometimes, Rand is able to deal with this problem of emerging awareness of LTT's soul (personality?) by hearing LTT speak as a voice in his head.   It's an unconscious defense that lets Rand reject that other personality when he needs to.  This makes it possible for him to keep LTT separate, and claim his body as his own.

Bits and pieces sometimes drifted across whatever thin barrier lay between him and that voice, and became part of Rand's memories, usually without anything to explain them.  It happened more often, lately. The fragments were not something he could fight, like the voice. (Lord of Chaos, p.104)

In spite of Rand's maintaining some separation, during Lord of Chaos and A Crown of Swords, LTT has become more and more a part of Rand, as Rand takes on LTT's memories, abilities, behavior patterns, and speech patterns.   Egwene knows this.  She speaks of seeing another man looking out of Rand's eyes.  Rand doesn't know.  He thinks Lews Therin is a voice and he is afraid of LTT taking him over, but he doesn't recognize what's going on.  He is, however, fiercely determined that if he must die at Tarmon Gai'don, he will die as himself--Rand al'Thor.

Rand is definitely walking the edge of madness, with uncontrollable anger and other emotional upset, constantly wrestling for control with LTT, the personality that is becoming strong enough and aware enough to influence him.

All of this comes to a head on page 331 of Crown of Swords, when Cadsuane asks Rand whether he hears voices, then tells him that hearing voices is part of the madness.   Rand doesn't hear the voice of LTT after this.  Here's the reason:  Cadsuane has identified his unconscious defense mechanism, brought his attention to it in a different way.  After she calls it madness, making him aware of it, making him think about it differently, he can't do it anymore.

Now he's worse off.  He still has this problem of two personalities, added to the other difficulties of being the Dragon Reborn.   He doesn't have a way to deal with it, yet he can't escape.  The duty is still there.

That unfocused rage inside him settles on his self-image.  He hurls away the Dragon scepter, smashes the Dragon throne, breaks the mirrors in the room, and goes into a real funk.  Min breaks through all this, treats him like a person, (thank you, Min) and they *comfort* each other.

Afterwards, Rand's reaction to the comforting seems all out of proportion, unless you consider that his and Min's off-screen action must have been more violent (or perhaps just more mature) than anything Rand considered acceptable, AND unless you realize that more was going on than just an excess of hormones and passion.   Rand lost control, and what he lost control to was the LTT part of himself.   (All along, LTT seems to be a lot lustier than Rand, and he's certainly more experienced.)  This is a big part of what Rand can't accept, what makes an emotional and sexual interaction that was totally acceptable to Min seem abominable to Rand.

There's more to it than that, though.  Rand and LTT are coexisting  but the result is uneven, unhappy, insane.  Since losing "LTT's voice", Rand has lost much of his ability to be the dominant personality.  His subconscious is a battlefield, and he spends those next days and nights (after Cadsuane's visit) unable to sleep except to be overwhelmed by nightmares.  He refuses to see anyone, less because of ordinary anger or shame, than because suddenly he has no "self" to put on, no identity to wear in public, a feeling more naked (more shameful) than most of us can imagine.

While he hides away from everyone, Rand says over and over, "I am the Dragon Reborn".  He is tormented by it. He seems to be wallowing in a very LTT-influenced frame of mind.  "What a fool he had been to want to live past Tarmon Gai'don.  He did not deserve to." Crown of Swords (522)

How many times had LTT's voice said, "Let me die.  I deserve only death"?   In the past, it had been LTT's voice, and Rand only had to listen to it.  He can't make that distinction any more, so the death-wish is part of himself and it's dragging him under.

Min comes to Rand, talks to him.  (Why didn't they talk sooner?)  She tells him she loves him, and that Elayne and Aviendha love him, too.  This is a tremendous thing, because he is a person who has a lot of love to give, but thinks that as the Dragon Reborn, he is both unworthy and unable to give it.  He's certainly had very little hope of any love being returned.  Suddenly, out of the blue, he finds out that not only Min, but all three girls love him.  It's the best thing that has happened to him in years, and it anchors his self-image to something good, for a change.   This revelation triggers the turning point for Rand and LTT.

It happens on page 525 of A Crown of Swords, Chapter 33 (A Bath):

He raised his right hand and studied the flat of his palm, where the branded heron stood clear, then looked at her.  She eyed his hand warily and shifted herself on his knees, then conspicuously ignored everything except his face.

"I won't go, Rand," she said quietly.

His hand is in the traditional gesture of offering.  It makes sense that he is thinking that all he can offer her is the Dragon Reborn, with all that entails, including madness, death, LTT, and danger to her.  Min accepts that, and it "makes all his troubles shrink".  He accepts himself then--Rand al'Thor and Lews Therin Telemon, both.

After that, there is a shift in the way Rand talks and acts.  He even seems to move differently.  And Robert Jordan states, over and over, that the difference is significant.

Min grumbles, "You're in love with the Dragon Reborn, Min Farshaw, and best you remember it.  Best you did too, Rand."

Rand agrees to see the Sea Folk, whom he had been avoiding because he had wanted to protect them from being tangled in the prophecies of the Dragon.  He goes so far opposite as to say that "now the Sea Folk can kneel to the Dragon Reborn in all his splendor." (A Crown of Swords p.526)

Rand asks for Min's viewing, and Min tells him, "I saw you and another man.  I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you.  You touched, and seemed to merge into one another".  She follows with her worries about which one dies, but Rand isn't bothered by that at all.  He's grinning.  He goes on to think, "One lived and one died, but he had known for a long time that he was going to die. "  (A Crown of Swords, A Bath, pg. 526)  (Something about this last statement lets the reader feel the one-ness in Rand. He takes her worries about two people, dismisses them as a sure thing for one person.)

Rand doesn't have any experience with the concepts of multiple personalities.   He interprets Min's viewing as a sign that the voice was real, so he's jubilantly relieved. "At least he was not mad.  Or not as mad as he had feared." (A Crown of Swords p.526)

The chapter ends with the bath with Min and the Maidens.  It states, "Rand al'Thor" (the personal Rand, the one who had previously owned the naked body) "might have been routed in a bathtub, but the Dragon Reborn was going to the Sea Folk in a style that would send them plummeting to their knees with awe."  (A Crown of Swords p.528)  Again, Jordan is restating and highlighting the change.

 The next two chapters (Ta'veren and Into the Woods) describe Rand's manic assertion of himself as the Dragon Reborn.  This is uppermost in Rand's mind and everyone else's.  The chapters are loaded with Dragon symbolism (the word Dragon comes up 18 times) and full of ta'veren-ness, and after all, who could be more ta'veren than the Dragon Reborn when being fully himself, not fighting himself?

Note:  In some ways, this whole business reminds me of those horrible parlor games, where there is a joke or trick that is hidden in full sight.  (Chinese Numbers, I Take the Scissors Crossed and pass them Uncrossed, etc.)  Once it is seen, it is so obvious that you can't believe you didn't get it right away.   I think Jordan is telling us straight out, over and over, what happened here. --M.H.

Check it out for yourself.   If you've lent your book to someone, you may never get it back.  Just order a new one.   Once you notice this stuff, it's like reading a new book.

Back to top

So why isn't Rand crazy now?   Lews Therin was crazy, right?

For one thing, Lews Therin has gradually become less "mad", although Rand certainly considered him mad.  The voice sounded insane.    Perhaps, though, he wasn't hopelessly insane (after all, he was 'cured' by Ishamael so that he could see the death around him).  Even so, whatever consciousness existed for LTT was drowned out by the memory of the traumatic events at the end of his past life.   He only gradually became aware of Rand and Rand's world.

Rand affects LTT, too.  LTT has come back to consciousness in a world defined by Rand's character--his integrity, his warm humanness and original healthy outlook.

Rand's personality is dominant, but LTT is there, more and more.   Only a few instances are shown in which LTT becomes dominant--once with Taim and the seal, once when Rand tests Taim's strength and LTT seizes saidin, and once when LTT speaks to Lanfear just before her death.  These were examples of domination.  One personality will exist, or the other.  Rand is sure (and this is confirmed in Moiraine's letter to him), that if he stops fighting this battle, he will exist as a voice in Lews Therin Telamon's head, if that.

Integration requires something different than fighting for dominance.  It requires a measure of control that is more subtle than complete rejection.  At the end of Lord of Chaos, Rand learned new skills.  Two things happened during Rand's stint in Galina's box:  1)  Rand managed to "talk to" LTT when he needed to.   2) Rand  learned to shut LTT up, damp the voice down to the buzzing of a fly.   Perhaps the new relationship at the end of Crown of Swords is similar, including that ability to damp down the unpleasant and unstable aspects of LTT.   That ability was something that had to develop before the two were going to be able to integrate successfully.

So, according to this theory, the madness could be (mostly) shut out, meaning the Dragon Reborn is (mostly) sane.  He still has to deal with the evil of the taint, and more than a few job-related stress factors, but as far as the integration, he's over the hump.

this was written by Maggie Hettinger but makes you think that maybe PoD explained more and was more insightful than most think.

Callandor: 2005-06-14

**Everybody in the Wheel of Time world is somebody reborn, but people are usually pretty much unconscious of their previous personalities. The taint on saidin seems to break down the barrier between them, and this problem of more than one conscious person in one body seems to be part of the madness that affects male channelers.**

In part, it is. However, there does seem to be two seperate symptoms developing from the same source: the taint.

One is the breakdown of the barrier between past and present lives. This seems to be directly related to the amount of tainted saidin a man channels: more taint, more breakdown obviously.

But there also seems to be a seperate just general "madness" effect of the taint that is not based on amount of taint taken into the body. This is at least believed by the way that some male channelers can go years without any known symptoms (Logain; Taim is not apart of this group for seperate reasons), but there are also male channelers who go mad in two days (the new Soldier to the Black Tower).

With Rand, the two seem to be happening at roughly the same rate. This is most likely due to the madness having some kind of rate specific to each person (for some reason unknown), and Rand channeling the most tainted saidin of any male in the 3rd Age --> lots of breakdown ;).

** Egwene knows this. She speaks of seeing another man looking out of Rand's eyes. Rand doesn't know. He thinks Lews Therin is a voice and he is afraid of LTT taking him over, but he doesn't recognize what's going on. He is, however, fiercely determined that if he must die at Tarmon Gai'don, he will die as himself--Rand al'Thor.**

He does know. It's just he doesn't know what to do about it, except fight against it as hard as he can.

**All of this comes to a head on page 331 of Crown of Swords, when Cadsuane asks Rand whether he hears voices, then tells him that hearing voices is part of the madness. Rand doesn't hear the voice of LTT after this. Here's the reason: Cadsuane has identified his unconscious defense mechanism, brought his attention to it in a different way. After she calls it madness, making him aware of it, making him think about it differently, he can't do it anymore.**

There is another take on it.

Throughout the series, Lews Therin constantly expresses sadness, laughter, fear, anger - precisely the emotions that Rand tries to avoid and needs to relearn.

This is why Lews Therin disappears in A Crown of Swords for a brief time -- it's one of the few occasions since Lews Therin appeared that Rand has been angry on his own. Rand started to express his own emotions, instead of supressing them because of his duty to be the Dragon Reborn.

Once that started, Lews Therin went away. After the incident, Rand soon went back to supressing his emotions again, and Lews Therin reappeared later on.

A lot of people seem to accept a roughly similar idea of what is going on more and more throughout the books between Lews Therin and Rand. What people largely disagree on, is Lews Therin's source.

JakOShadows: 2005-06-14

Darkshadow: I like how you explained this. It does seem that he is coming to terms with LTT being in his head. And in WH, when he's in Far Madding and playing flute, he's using LTT's knowledge and obviously not fighting it. So it does look as he is getting better and will come to terms sometime soon hopefully. I was getting tired of his multiple personality complex for a while there.

Tristin: 2005-06-15

Well we know that Rand has one soul with two personalities because RJ told us so. That means that there is Rand + Lews Therin. There is also this "other one" which, if RJ is not leaving anything out, makes the Amalgamation theory the most likely option...i.e., that LT and Rand are merging into the third person.

There are a couple of oddities though that I can't explain and I'm wondering if anyone else can. First of all, in Path of Daggers LT goes quiet in Rands head till almost the end of the book. He keeps wondering if LTT was ever there in the first place and then all the sudden the voice is back. What is responsible for the silence of LTT for so long? Is it just that Rand didn't need him?

It seems to me like LTT has the "Dreads." He is not insane exactly (maybe because madness doesn't stay with the soul or maybe because he was healed before he died). Rand remembers Nynaebe talking about the Dreads and how that was madness when someone stopped trusting everyone. This is the same kind of thing that LTT is always on about, about killing the Asha'man and AS. The weird thing though is that LTT would be insane at all. If the wheel has kept turning for who knows how long then the the soul of the Dragon has always been there coming out at need. Supposedly sometimes the soul has turned to the shadow, sometimes defeating the DO, sometimes going mad, etc. Why would the soul of the dragon stay insane once LTT died. It doesn't make any sense...proximity between LTT and Rand shouldn't matter at all in terms of the passage of time. Once a soul has done its work it is stuck back into the melting pot and whipped out whenever the pattern needs it. Birgitte has lived countless times and even when she remembers things that have happened those lives do not affect her really. She knows that her parents have died countless times that horrible wars have been fought, etc. but she does not weep over them. The only thing she cries about is having been Ripped from the pattern and she is afraid of missing Gaidal. She is afraid that this life things will go completely wrong. The question then, is whether the person Lews Therin Telamon went insane, or whether the soul of the dragon itself went insane. Its fair enough that Rand would get memories from LTT due to the taint or TAR but it makes no sense that he would be getting the actual crazy voice in his head. LTT was a dragon but he was not the dragon...if that makes sense. Its very possible I think that Rand is actually the one who is going crazy and that when memories from the life of LTT or another dragon show up its his own insanity which is making them into a personality. That way Rand can cut himself off from his own insanity...by limiting it to this LTT which he has created based upon a few floating memories. If he can keep himself convinced that LTT is insane and that he has to fight him, then he can do a dual identity kind of thing. Keep the insanity to one part of the brain while the other does what it is supposed to.

Also it is important to mention I think that this might very well be a possibility. Sure some Asha'man talk to themselves and seem to be going crazy like Rand...but others go mad in different not so scary ways. Like a man who sees spiders crawling all over himself or when Fedwin Morr reverts to a child. The scary bit is that they are capable of making their fantasies come true, but they are not dealing with malevolant voices necessarily. I think it is very possible that Rand is trying to confine his insanity to a created personality...and fighting that personality with all he is worth. As he is not so far gone maybe someone can give him more than "a few moments of clarity" by healing...or maybe the LTT insanity will just win...who knows...

raistlin: 2005-06-16

I have to subscribe to the ONE soul, two personality's view.

It does seem as if LTT is actually in rands head- too many details are known for it to be rands subconcious manifesting itself- ie knowing the forsaken's real names and the names of places from AOL.

I have to wonder though about all the assumptions of this 'other' person that LTT alludes to. If we also factor in the blurry face that rand begins to see when he channels in book nine it opens up a different idea.

We saw whenever Rand entered TAR in the flesh he had problems controlling his looks- he looked into a mirror and saw himself changing into LTT and had to fight to stop LTT asserting control over his body.

Could the blurry face be the person that rand is becoming?? We don't know who will will the battle for supremacy in rands mind- LTT or rand himself. Maybe the face is blurry beacause it is still in doubt which personality will rise in control as the DR. I can't see it alluding to 'another DR' because RJ specifically says that rand has TWO personality's in one soul- not three.

well thats me tuppence :D

fistandantilus: 2005-06-17

"Could the blurry face be the person that rand is becoming??"

I don't really see Rand and LTT merging in Rand's body, Rand's trouble controlling his looks in TAR seems to be LTT attacking Rand at a weak moment. So Rand isn't really becoming anything. This third person was referred to as a third person, not a combination of existing people (Lan, perhaps).

I used to believe that LTT was a separate entity within Rand, sharing a soul but not a part of Rand himself. However, the way things have been going points to LTT being a personality construct designed by his own mind to help him deal with the repressed emotions. As Callandor pointed out, after the outburst, LTT went away for a while. This shows that as Rand assimilates his emotions back into himself, LTT loses whatever it is that makes him. So I guess in essence it will be a merge of LTT and Rand in the end, but the result will be just a normal Rand (as normal as he can be) with emotions.

Callandor: 2005-06-17

**There are a couple of oddities though that I can't explain and I'm wondering if anyone else can. First of all, in Path of Daggers LT goes quiet in Rands head till almost the end of the book. He keeps wondering if LTT was ever there in the first place and then all the sudden the voice is back. What is responsible for the silence of LTT for so long? Is it just that Rand didn't need him?**

The generally accepted idea is that Lews Therin is, along with other things, an outlet for Rand's emotions that he keeps surpressing in need to be the "Dragon Reborn." Rand in A Crown of Swords (not The Path of Daggers -- that's when Lews Therin comes back), first meets Cadsuane and gets geniunely angry -- one of the few emotions that he expresses and not Lews Therin if forever. Because of that, he did not need Lews Therin anymore for the time being. After that incident though, he gradually supressed more and more emotions until, ta da, Lews Therin re-appears.

**Why would the soul of the dragon stay insane once LTT died.**

General answer: it wouldn't ;) It's an interpretation of Rand, about the memories from Lews Therin's life that he is using as the basis for Lews Therin. Because he can recognize who the voice is, he subconsciously gives the attributes of "insanity" to it, that he thinks it should have. Basically, not proven sadly, is that Rand created Lews Therin, and all he has to do is realize he did, and he will be much better off for it.

**The question then, is whether the person Lews Therin Telamon went insane, or whether the soul of the dragon itself went insane.**

Just Lews Therin ;)

**Its very possible I think that Rand is actually the one who is going crazy and that when memories from the life of LTT or another dragon show up its his own insanity which is making them into a personality.**

That's the general idea. Rand is suffering from taint madness and this is it -- he just has the added downfall of having actual memories to base this madness on making it seem all the more real.

**It does seem as if LTT is actually in rands head- too many details are known for it to be rands subconcious manifesting itself- ie knowing the forsaken's real names and the names of places from AOL.**

The actual memories from Lews Therin's life are the sources of those, not Rand simply making them up. The memories are crossing over to Rand due to the breakdown of the barrier between past and present lives.

Narianna: 2005-06-18

this amalgamation theory has not convinced me as LTT has referrred to this separate personality as a separate being not a mixture(??)

also LTT was himself surprised with the third one.

who or what is this third being?

how is this event related to min's viewing on rand's merging?(btw the viewing said that one would survive and the other would die bu also said abt merging grrrrr..)

or ar thes two separate things?

in that case could this third one be the dragon of the previous age?

or as some people have proposed it is guaire amalsam?

Kantuna: 2005-06-18

i think the colours are a Ta'veren thing. The images/faces that Rand, Mat and Perrin see are all of each other, giving the effect that they can see what the other 2 are doing. This could be a big help in the Last Battle -

"Where's Rand?"

"He's on the other side of the hill being Mauled by a Myrdrall"

"We have to help!"

"Don't worry, Perrins there now..."

While i'm here, RJ says that RAND has two personalities in one soul(Empasis mine). If Rand can feel the Last dragon, why shouldn't the last dragon feel the one before him? In other words, LTT can hear the Dragons on either side of him (Rand and the one before LTT) and so can Rand.

Before anyone says "Why can't Rand hear the next dragon," Just remember that there is a reason that we're looking at Rand - THERE ISN'T GOING TO BE A NEXT TIME. We have been told many times that this time is final, but people keep ignoring it. (Can't find evidece right now, I haven't got the books here. If you're desparate, say so and i'll find some.)

KaraK: 2005-06-18

Although LTT was healed by Ishamael in EOTW, there is no direct evidence that this was permanent - even if it had been this MASSIVE draw on saidin (which killed him) may well have given him a enough of a dose of the taint to go a fair chunk mad again. After all the only protection from going mad was a connection to the DO which he certainly didnt have.

Assuming that it IS Lews in Rand's head he appears to be slightly less mad then he was found to be at the start of EOTW because he DOES have his lucid moments.

clocklotion: 2005-06-18

I wanted to submit a different way of looking at this theory but there were simply too many replies too to read to see if somebody already put this out there so if somebody did, I'm apologize just ignore this repetition.

Here we go. I think that the voice has to be at least connected to Lews Therin in at least some small way. There is too many references to Ileyna, specific things that Lews did (fighting the Forsaken, calling Lanfear, Meiron, saying that he loved Ileyna and not Meiron) and then the whole scene where Rand is ASKED by the voice "are you real?" Ok so after establishing that I do believe the voice is Lews Therin's let me get to the heart of it.

Nowhere does it actually say that Lews Therin is 'dead' dead. If you get my drift. Nowhere in the books does it actually say that after Lews Therin balefired himself (or whatever he did) and buried himself under Dragonmount that he ceased to exist. The voice inside his head say almost as much with quotes that go something like, "I yearn for death, I want death, but I don't deserve it." That very much implies to me that Lews Therin is still in some ways alive and may be imprisoned somewhere just like the DO and is unaware that he is communicating with Rand through some link in them both being the Dragon Reborn.

OR. Lews Therin's soul is in TAR or some other 'plane' or one of the other worlds and is seeing Rand's life through his eyes, and a connection has been formed, so everything that Rand is experiencing, Lews is also experiencing in his world. It was mentioned somewhere else that world's exist where everything is the same except one small thing. Well that one small thing that Rand's soul was born in this world, and Lew's soul was born in that world. They are going through the exact same set of events which are somehow merging into one.

WHICH could explain the 'ghosts'. They are not ghosts but simply mirrors of the world as it merges with Randland, becoming more corporeal as the merge becomes more and more complete.

Notice that everytime Rand feels 'comepelled' (not compulsion, just the need) to reach for the One Power to protect himself or lash out, Lews Therin is only a fraction of a second behind him (sometimes faster). The only time I have seen where Lews Therin actually acts completely on his own, that is to say that Rand does not WANT what Lews wants is in terms of Mazrim Taim. Lews wants Rand to kill Taim, Rand doesn't want to kill Taim.

Now one would ask well if the world's really are merging than why is nobody else having voices or something like that. Well. Maybe there are a few things different in each world. Maybe in the world where Lews is in, there is no need for three ta'avrean, maybe Lews is just one giagantic ta'varean and there's no need for a Mat or a Perrin. Or maybe the versions of Mat and Perrin are different souls in the other world.

I think that this bears a little thought.

Yaga Shura: 2005-06-18

"If Rand can feel the Last dragon, why shouldn't the last dragon feel the one before him? In other words, LTT can hear the Dragons on either side of him (Rand and the one before LTT) and so can Rand. "

You're saying LTT could hear Rand during the Age of Legends? Otherwise the situations are totally different. And how does a person not even born yet manage to get into someone else's head?

"We have been told many times that this time is final, but people keep ignoring it. (Can't find evidece right now, I haven't got the books here. If you're desparate, say so and i'll find some.)"

Yeah, I think we're desperate.

free will: 2005-06-18

Yes, I for one, would like evidence for the "there is no next time" theory. Since Shai'tan was "bound at the moment of creation" I'm afraid that when Shai'tan is bound that is considered the alleged first moment, hence the battle right before it would be "the last" but it's still not the last and time can still be circular. The Wheel is supposed to be large enough that an age doesn't remeber it's last time it turned, so it's hard to get real evidence of a linear time as opposed to things seeming new or final when they are neither. Evidence would be much appreciated.

Callandor: 2005-06-19

**While i'm here, RJ says that RAND has two personalities in one soul(Empasis mine). If Rand can feel the Last dragon, why shouldn't the last dragon feel the one before him? In other words, LTT can hear the Dragons on either side of him (Rand and the one before LTT) and so can Rand.**

If my theory on where Lews Therin came from is indeed true, then the reason Lews Therin does not hear previous Dragons is simple: the taint did not break down his barrier between past and present lives like it did to Rand. Lews Therin and the remaining Hundred Companions when mad from the backblast, but from everything we've seen the taint causes two effects (one being a theorized):

1. It causes taint madness (duh).

2. It breaks the barrier between past and present lives.

Also from what we've seen, the two symptoms of the taint happen at different rates. It seems that people go mad from the taint much, much, faster than their barriers break down. With Rand, it's due to the amount of taint that he has channeled is so great when compared to any other 3rd Age channeler that his madness and barrier degredation appear to happen at roughly the same pace.

With Lews Therin, we do not know if the backblast merely drove them instantly insane or if it effected their barriers as well. It's supposition (granted, I can see how it would be true).

Personally, I am still on the fence to the source of Lews Therin, but if I had to pick one, at present I lean toward the taint breaking down Lews Therin's previous lives -- IE: you have three layers to go through here, Rand on top, then the barrier between Rand and Lews Therin, then the barrier between Lews Therin and whoever at the other end. The taint has gone through in one "place" on the barrier enough so that it is affecting Lews Therin's barrier now.

But I also don't fully believe that -- like I said, merely a picking of what I feel most likely is happening, without really deciding on it ;)

**Before anyone says "Why can't Rand hear the next dragon," Just remember that there is a reason that we're looking at Rand - THERE ISN'T GOING TO BE A NEXT TIME. We have been told many times that this time is final, but people keep ignoring it.**

No. This is not the final confrontation -- we know that the Light "wins" however we do not know the price that will come from that victory.

The reason Rand can't hear the "next" Dragon, is because Rand isn't dead and his soul hasn't been reborn yet -- barrier degredation works backwards in rebirths, not forwards.

Callandor: 2005-06-19

No. Lews Therin overdosed on saidin and died at Dragonmount. His soul was reborn into Rand al'Thor. There was no trapping or anything at all of that nature -- he died. Plain and simple.

Kantuna: 2005-06-19

like I said before, I haven't got access to the books at the moment, but I'll get back to you soon. If you're that desparate, I think that most of the evidence is in The Eye of the World, but I can't find it for you now.

"You're saying LTT could hear Rand during the Age of Legends? Otherwise the situations are totally different. And how does a person not even born yet manage to get into someone else's head?"

Here's some things for you to think about:

1. Where is there any evidence that LTT didn't hear Rand in his Head during the AoL (I know there is no evidence that he did, which is why it's called a THEORY,)

2. LTT went mad during the AoL, which could be a reason that, like Callandor said, the barriers between his other lives are breaking down.

"The Wheel is supposed to be large enough that an age doesn't remeber it's last time it turned, so it's hard to get real evidence of a linear time as opposed to things seeming new or final when they are neither."

That doesn't take into account one soul being reborn again and again. If Rand can hear his last soul, and LTT the one before that, is there a chain that goes all the way back to Rand (Yes, I know that kind of goes against my theory, but it doesn't matter because all previous times it wasn't the Last last battle)

"The reason Rand can't hear the "next" Dragon, is because Rand isn't dead and his soul hasn't been reborn yet -- barrier degredation works backwards in rebirths, not forwards. "

Nice thought. Why didn't I think of that?

JakOShadows: 2005-06-19

Callandor: I agree with you that the taint does break down the buffer between past lives. But I also think that what causes Rand so much trouble is that he can't come to terms with the fact that he is LTT and Rand at the same time. He's struggling so much to maintain his identity that he's making him out to be a separate person in his head. And that could be why men go crazy. Because they hear a voice in their head, and they struggle so much to keep their identity they go insane. Now I don't obviously that is supposition. I was just throwing that idea out there. But I do believe once Rand comes to terms with being LTT reborn, he won't be nearly as crazy as he is now.

El Bogarto: 2005-06-19

I'm still leaning towards past life leakage disassociated into a separate personality in Rand's head.

It would be like remembering the crazy acid trip you had the year before...

RJ did say that Rand's insanity was manifesting in very subtle ways.

Compare it to what happened with Matt. His past lives (or previous incarnations, whatever) bubbled up from time to time even before he made his bargain in Finnland.

I know Matt doesn't _like_ the memories too much, but he's accepted them, and even embraces them from time to time (like with Lan, in the tent).

But, those are ordinary, last-time-around memories, not the frenzied remembrances of a madman ~ nor was he indirectly touching the DO's essence.

If Mat always ruthlessly suppressed those thoughts and memories, and channeled tainted Saidin, he would probably have created a personality that named itself after an obscure Manetheren general or something.

It's all in TFoH! I love that book.

Oh, Light!

The thought drifted across the surface of the void.

I said "me."

...

Not mine. Not my memory.

Anubis: 2005-06-20

Well its been argued that channeling is linked to both body and soul, but I would argue that just about any body can channel, if it has the propper soul, and maturity. This has a point.

I cant agree with your breaking down the bonds theory. We have seen no other channelers claiming to be someone else reborn, even among the Asha'man. Why is Rand unique? You say because he channeled alot. I say because he is the Dragon Reborn. Everyone is someone reborn, but noone else has prophecies saying that they are that person reborn, or signs stating who. Rand is a special case. IMO something different happened. Instead of dying losing all memmory being reborn it went differently. A lousy theory with no evidence to back it up, but it beats rand channeled more. Asha'man channel day in and day out, and many have had to be put down. If their barriers were going to break down they would have.

Callandor: 2005-06-20

**1. Where is there any evidence that LTT didn't hear Rand in his Head during the AoL (I know there is no evidence that he did, which is why it's called a THEORY,)**

1. Not only does it break I'm sure every rule of physics in our world, it also breaks the laws that RJ has established in his world. People do not hear voices from the future in the way that you are stating.

When Lews Therin was alive he was the Dragon. He was the Dragon's soul in the world, in a body, doing the actions for the Pattern. Ok? Rand, is the exact same thing, just one Age later.

How in the world is even concievable to propose the idea that Lews Therin was talking to Rand, through time, and through rebirths?

2. The lack of evidence is not evidence. "There's nothing for or against it" is an adage that you should laugh at and never use, because both ideas are equally impossible and dismissed as supposition.

**2. LTT went mad during the AoL, which could be a reason that, like Callandor said, the barriers between his other lives are breaking down.**

Yes, it could be. I personally don't think that was the case, because he went mad; it's not as if he channeled at that taint. But that is not known.

And if that was the case, Lews Therin would be hearing the voice (and this isn't even completely going with the theory of why Rand has Lews Therin's voice, because there are outside factors involved) of the person that was the Dragon before him -- not after him. Lews Therin would be hearing the 1st Age Dragon -- not the 3rd Age Dragon.

**If Rand can hear his last soul, and LTT the one before that, is there a chain that goes all the way back to Rand (Yes, I know that kind of goes against my theory, but it doesn't matter because all previous times it wasn't the Last last battle)**

No. Because Rand had not been born and had not lived yet. There might have been a degredation back to another and different 3rd Age Dragon -- but it was not Rand. The Ages are not exact copies of each other, from turning to turning.

**But I also think that what causes Rand so much trouble is that he can't come to terms with the fact that he is LTT and Rand at the same time.**

But he is not Lews Therin. Lews Therin is dead. He is Rand al'Thor. All that he was having trouble with was accepting that he was the Dragon Reborn -- it may play a bit of influence on him, but much more important and vital I feel is the supression of feelings that comes with being the Dragon Reborn.

**But I do believe once Rand comes to terms with being LTT reborn, he won't be nearly as crazy as he is now.**

He already has, unless your proposing he is deluding himself. Rand finally came to terms with being the Dragon Reborn at the end of... The Dragon Reborn.

**Compare it to what happened with Matt. His past lives (or previous incarnations, whatever) bubbled up from time to time even before he made his bargain in Finnland.**

There was one instance of rememberance by Mat, the rest were all Old Tongue speaking.

**We have seen no other channelers claiming to be someone else reborn, even among the Asha'man. Why is Rand unique? You say because he channeled alot. I say because he is the Dragon Reborn. Everyone is someone reborn, but noone else has prophecies saying that they are that person reborn, or signs stating who. Rand is a special case. IMO something different happened. Instead of dying losing all memmory being reborn it went differently. A lousy theory with no evidence to back it up, but it beats rand channeled more. Asha'man channel day in and day out, and many have had to be put down. If their barriers were going to break down they would have.**

And this I feel is the most illogical arguement against the idea.

1. What are the Prophecies? They aren't a magical essence that gives Rand power -- all they are are glimpses of the future; pre-planning.

Rand was reborn according to Prophecy. All they did was herald to the world that he was coming -- nothing more.

2. You are not grasping the amount of saidin that Rand has channeled to any degree if you think that Asha'man channeling the amount that they do is comparable.

A. Rand is the strongest channeler in existance now (Moridin most likely equals him, but Rand is more than likely superior by a small degree).

B. Rand has been channeling a lot of the time, and on a nearly daily basis since The Dragon Reborn -- and these are not simple things that he is doing with the One Power.

C. Rand has had access to some very powerful toys:

1. Callandor -- the second most powerful male attuned sa'angreal on the planet? He's used it 3 times, all with lots of power going through it.

2. The fat man angreal -- Rand kept this from The Shadow Rising until Lord of Chaos, and it was a strong angreal and he also used it a lot.

3. The Choedan Kal -- people tend to forget that Rand has used the male sa'angreal twice, not just once. Granted, it was only half the output, because Asmodean in Rhuidean held the other half, but that event right there I would say with clear consciousness that Rand became the person in the 3rd Age to channel the most saidin and taint. And low and behold, Lews Therin appears right after this event -- interesting!

And lets not forget the Cleansing. After that event, I'd be willing to bet that Rand has channeled more saidin in nearly 3 years, as most channelers in the Age of Legends did in 200.

Rand has channeled a lot of saidin. Some male channelers might be close (particularly Narishma, since he used Callandor, but maybe it was "safer" due to the link he was in; another "close" canidate might be Flinn, since he was the first and is pretty powerful), but no where are they on the scale of Rand right now, and because saidin is Cleansed hopefully they won't be ever.

Dragoon: 2005-06-20

I believe that LTT and Rand are the same soul. I think that LTT is actually the part of Rand's soul that holds the memories and personality of LTT and that the reason he is inside Rands head is that the taint somehow twisted that part of his soul which has enabled it to be energised by saidin, beacase Rand says that the voice got stronger the more he used saidin and remember that saidin "fills you with life" when you draw it and this also explains why LTT is stronger he is getting more "life" everytime Rand uses saidin.

Also about Birgitte I think the reason her memories are fading is that she is still a soul . She was a soul in TAR like the others Heroes and she became physical by being born into a body and merge her soul with that body to become a person but this time she wasn't born she was ripped out and she nearly died because she was still a soul and did not have a body. I think that Elayne's bond with her is the only thing that keeping her alive. She doesn't have real flesh, It might look and feel like real flesh but it is actually some sort of spirit flesh and she is like a fish trying to survive without water. I think that her fading memories are the beggining of some sort of spiritual degrading. This actually raises quite a philosophical question can she be reborn if she dies still as a spirit? The soul is immortal but she is in the physical world as a soul so if she dies is her soul dead too?

JakOShadows: 2005-06-20

Dragoon: I do agree with you. That LTT and Rand are the same soul. The only difference is that in each new life they have a different name. And the taint is what's breaking the barrier down between the memories. And thanks for pointing how much of the OP he has used. I've never noticed how much more it is compare to everyone else.

Callandor: He has accepted the fact that he is the dragon reborn. But I really don't think he's accepted the fact that LTT's memories are becoming his. And for the most part, it would be a hard thing to know about from the outside. Maybe in prophecy it could, but you definitely wouldn't know about it in another male channeler very easily. So Rand has to come to terms with who he is and all his memories(everything about his previous life) all by himself. So it is logical why it would take so long. And frankly, not many male channelers would have had to deal with it so strongly and quickly, so this would be a unique situation. Your thinking of it as a simple thing to come to terms with, which it probably isn't considering the fact that he broke the world. And maybe people in general can't come to terms with this, and that pschizofrenia combined with the OP is what causes the to go made in the soul and body.

Callandor: 2005-06-21

**But I really don't think he's accepted the fact that LTT's memories are becoming his.**

Depends. He knows he can't fight against them, so what is left to do but accept it?

**Your thinking of it as a simple thing to come to terms with, which it probably isn't considering the fact that he broke the world.**

I do not think of this as anything but the exact opposite of a simple situation.

El Bogarto: 2005-06-22

**There was one instance of rememberance by Mat, the rest were all Old Tongue speaking.**

Hey Callandor, I thought Old Tongue speaking was an echo of the past? From a previous incarnation?

Just asking, don't flame me.

Callandor: 2005-06-22

**Hey Callandor, I thought Old Tongue speaking was an echo of the past? From a previous incarnation?**

No. The Old Tongue being spokenis simply a facet of the Old Blood having so much strength in the Two Rivers (cause they inbreed like crazy ;)). Egwene partially has the Old Blood, because she refers to what Mat is saying as if she could nearly understand it at Mat's Healing in The Dragon Reborn (and I believe before this as well).

We have Mat's POV in The Shadow Rising of him playing cards with the nobles and speaking the Old Tongue in slips, as well as in The Dragon Reborn just before he fights Galad and Gawyn in Tar Valon. Those are not previous incarnations speaking or anything like that -- it's simply the Old Blood coming through extremely strong in Mat.

However, in the Dragon Reborn, in the very first ever pov of Mat, we do have what seems to be an echo from the past or a previous incarnation, when Mat remembers being a bannerman/general-type position in a Manetheren army. That one instance is very pecular and quite speculated on, of course ;)

But after Mat returns from Rhuidean with Rand in The Shadow Rising, all of Mat's Old Tongue speaking and a good chunk of his memories have come from the Eelfinn's gift to him.

JakOShadows: 2005-06-22

Callandor: Rand is not fighting the memories that LTT has. I agree with you there. But I do think for most of the series he has been ignoring them. The only time I see him actively use the LTT's memories are in desperate situations. The only exception is in WH, where he uses the skills of LTT to play the flute. So I do believe he is coming to terms with it slowly though.

Callandor: 2005-06-22

**But I do think for most of the series he has been ignoring them.**

I wouldn't say it's quite ignoring them. Rand is being taught a very big lesson in futility via these memories, in that he knows they come across, he does not like this nor want this, yet he cannot fight them or do anything to stop them to his knowledge.

I personally wouldn't call it ignoring them, more like quiet acceptance over a long time.

**The only time I see him actively use the LTT's memories are in desperate situations.**

Depends on what you mean by using them. I would say Rand knowing what the Forsaken look like, and knowing everything that Lews Therin knew about them would be using his knowledge. Another example would be with Rand's vague knowledge of the Old Tongue (which is really only a few words), and some of that comes from Lews Therin. But if you mean Rand actively or not actively seeking help and going (somehow) to Lews Therin's memories, then of course it will be in desperate times, because when does Rand truely need help that much besides desperate times? ;)

**The only exception is in WH, where he uses the skills of LTT to play the flute.**

It wasn't Lews Therin's skill of the flute -- that was all Rand (remember back in The Eye of the World when Rand and Mat had to survive largely by music and juggling). Lews Therin did give the song though.

**So I do believe he is coming to terms with it slowly though.**

Either he's doing it slowly now, or he was and already has come completely to accept it.

Anubis: 2005-06-23

**He already has, unless your proposing he is deluding himself. Rand finally came to terms with being the Dragon Reborn at the end of... The Dragon Reborn.**

You and I have very different definitions of "come to terms with".

Narianna: 2005-06-23

LTT's skills that rand uses is that of sketching when he used it to draw the faces of the renegade ashamen.

during flute playing, rand uses the memory of the song lament for the long night which LTT has heard but the skill was his.

JakOShadows: 2005-06-23

Good point guys. There are some flaws in my theory. It was just speculation mostly.

SDog: 2005-06-23

A key point that seems to be missing here is that Rand does not think of LTT as a set of memories. Whatever you believe about how LTT got in Rand's head, Rand thinks LTT is real, and is actually talking to him.

So it's not Rand's job to "accept the memories" and "come to terms with them." I'd say he's done alright coming to terms with LTT as an entity.

Now, all that being said, I don't think the evidence for the Taint theory is particularly strong, at least to make it seem exclusive. In my mind, there are too many other factors (Rand being the Chosen One, being the strongest channeler in existence, etc.) that could also explain things. This is especially true in light of the fact that there are no other textual examples of channeling men with past memories in their heads. We have a statement about some men hearing voices, but we have lots of other evidence about men going mad in other ways.

The Taint-Barrier theory is plausible, certainly, but it's far from bulletproof or even particularly strong.

Anubis: 2005-06-23

Lack of evidence. Theres nothing that says anywhere that the taint can break down barriers between lives. Once again you are making straw men... :P. Nah. Heres the point im trying to make. Rand is LTT Reborn. Not simply the Dragon of the third age. These are things we know. Rand is the only specific person reborn that we have ever seen. In my mind, this is why he is different. Not some Saidin overdose.

First Selector: 2005-06-25

Is Birgitte being reborn any different than Lews Theron being reborn?

If a character named, say, Mary turned out to be Birgitte reborn, is that different than Rand being Lews reborn?

I think the trouble comes from thinking of Lews Theron and Rand as different entities, when they really are one.

As for why Rand hears the voice of Lews Theron in his head, I'm pretty sure that it has to do with T'A'R. When Birgitte was reborn before, instead of being ripped out, she said she would not know she was the legendary archer. Going on that idea, its plausable that the TAR-ripping could have broken the dividing lines between her current life and all of her former lives.

Since Rand has entered TAR in the flesh, it could be that the side effect (losing what makes you human) could break the dividing lines between current and former lives.

PS. I am unsure what this may be doing to Egwene, if anything at all.

Callandor: 2005-06-27

**Now, all that being said, I don't think the evidence for the Taint theory is particularly strong, at least to make it seem exclusive. In my mind, there are too many other factors (Rand being the Chosen One, being the strongest channeler in existence, etc.) that could also explain things. This is especially true in light of the fact that there are no other textual examples of channeling men with past memories in their heads. We have a statement about some men hearing voices, but we have lots of other evidence about men going mad in other ways.**

And what other textual POV have we had of a non-Shadowsworn male channeler in the 3rd Age? None. We have Rand's. That's it.

Rand being the "Chosen One" doesn't solve anything, and is just plain duex ex machina. Rand being the strongest male channeler, only helps along the barrier theory, because Rand can then channel more taint easily (and hence, faster) than any other male channeler.

SDog, I feel put way too many extrainious powers to Rand just because he is the Dragon Reborn. What is Rand?

1. A very, very, powerful male channeler.

2. A very powerful ta'veren.

3. A Hero of the Horn.

That's it. In every case, he is subject to the exact same effects of the taint as every other male channeler in the 3rd Age, simply because he is a soul reborn. Him being a ta'veren and a Hero of the Horn bare nothing on the events (ta'veren at most would be how he gets the items like Callandor and the Choedan Kal to just "fall into" his hands).

This, I'm assuming, is because you believe there is something special about Rand being reborn according to prophecy -- when there is shown to be nothing. All Rand's rebirth is a simple announcement that this soul would be reborn again, as it always will be.

**Lack of evidence. Theres nothing that says anywhere that the taint can break down barriers between lives.**

Nope, but there is many references to a barrier, there is simple logical thought to it's existance, and we have a force in the 3rd Age that has been described many times as a rotting/corrosive agent (look at the Ways for perfect proof).

**Rand is LTT Reborn. Not simply the Dragon of the third age.**

How is that not simply the Dragon of the Third Age? Rand is Lews Therin reborn. Mat is so-and-so reborn. Perrin is so-and-so reborn. Egwene is so-and-so reborn. What's your point?

**Rand is the only specific person reborn that we have ever seen. In my mind, this is why he is different. Not some Saidin overdose.**

1. How is that different, in looking at it, than anyone else ever in the history of the Pattern reborn? Only one thing -- the people knew it was going happen. That's it.

2. It's not a saidin overdose -- that's what happened to Lews Therin. It's the taint taking a toll on the barriers between past and present lives.

Anubis: 2005-06-27

****Rand is LTT Reborn. Not simply the Dragon of the third age.**

How is that not simply the Dragon of the Third Age? Rand is Lews Therin reborn. Mat is so-and-so reborn. Perrin is so-and-so reborn. Egwene is so-and-so reborn. What's your point? **

Lews Theren Telamon wasn't the Dragon of the first age reborn. Well he was, but he wasnt. He is in the sense that he is the same soul recycled... how to explain...

Lets pretend souls are not reborn. Time is linear, and you only get one shot at life. Suddenly Rand being LTT reborn becomes alot more meaningfull. What I'm trying to say is that Rand is LTT reborn in a direct, linear sense, not just a Cyclical one.

**This, I'm assuming, is because you believe there is something special about Rand being reborn according to prophecy -- when there is shown to be nothing.**

Thats exactly what I am saying. If there were nothing special about Rand, then he would be the Dragon, and not the Dragon Reborn. (and wouldnt have LTTs memories bouncing around his head)

Im getting the feeling that were going to have to agree to disagree, short of asking RJ theres really no way to settle this.

Callandor: 2005-06-28

**Lews Theren Telamon wasn't the Dragon of the first age reborn. Well he was, but he wasnt. He is in the sense that he is the same soul recycled... how to explain...**

Please, don't try, you're already not making sense ;):)

**Lets pretend souls are not reborn. Time is linear, and you only get one shot at life. Suddenly Rand being LTT reborn becomes alot more meaningfull. What I'm trying to say is that Rand is LTT reborn in a direct, linear sense, not just a Cyclical one.**

Rand is Lews Therin reborn. He is the Dragon's soul reborn.

Lews Therin was whoever reborn. He was the Dragon's soul reborn.

Whoever was whoever reborn. He was the Dragon's soul reborn.

This continues all the way back to the beginning.

Where is the special quality to Rand? Because there is a Prophecy (ies) about him? That is the only difference and all that does is announce to the world: Hey, the Dragon's soul is going to be reborn.

There isn't anything at all special about Rand being Lews Therin reborn, other than people know that he is exactly Lews Therin reborn. That's it. That's the only thing special about him. If we know who Perrin was in his previous incarnation, he would be in the same circumstance -- but we don't.

**Thats exactly what I am saying. If there were nothing special about Rand, then he would be the Dragon, and not the Dragon Reborn. (and wouldnt have LTTs memories bouncing around his head)**

Alright:

1. Rand is the Dragon Reborn because it's the name humanity gave to him. He could be Fred or Jebus or Jimmity Two-Two -- it's just a name.

2. Please, give any quotes or correlations or evidence to how Rand simply being himself, gave him Lews Therin's memories.

Richard: 2005-06-28

I think you are missing a point here... Rand is not another person in the wot. He is the dragon reborn. Brigitte has been reborn hundreds of times. How many times has the Dragon been reborn? Who/what is the dragon? Note that in the AoL the Aiel were referred as the children of the dragon, not of the dragon reborn. So it goes to say that (here is the big, massive maybe) before Lewis TT there was only a Dragon not a dragon reborn. Lewis TT was the dragon reborn. And, it is my understanding that this is the third age... so 3 ages, 1 dragon and two dragon-reborn's, that makes three again... I don't know.

Lewis TT died crazy, with some moments of clarity, which is exactly how it is in "Rands head", and he had a voice in his head (which he would have dismiss many a time because he was crazy). For me, Rand is the second re-encarnation of the Dragon, who would die so the 4th age can begin and he has a lunatic Lewis TT on his head with the Dragon trying to get through -- through Lewis TT. But that not to say that the voices are real...

Here is the twist: Rand has a similar problem to Mat. He "remebers" his previous lifes. Now, Mat is sane, and all his previous memories (which btw, are hundreds) are of sane people. Rand on the other hand, "remembers" a mad man. A man who had a "voice in his head". Mat does not sit down to discuss battle plans with his memories, he just "remembers" them. Rand has to access those "memories" (which are really experiences) through the brain of a mad man (who have confess he had a voice in his head). Even in our days delutional people "talk" in their heads to their younger selves or imaginay people, who are just sections of themselves. Rand might not be mad, but Lewis TT was, and Rand "remembers/experiences" his life. The voices are real and are not. How is that for a theory? I think I'll post it.

SDog: 2005-06-28

I think the point, Callandor, is that, other than Heroes and the Chosen One, every other soul is reborn in some random fashion. That is, there is no specific, planned rebirth as far as we know.

But we do know that is exactly what happens with the Chosen One. He is reborn from the same guy that tried to defeat the DO 3,500 years ago. According to one of the Forsaken, that has never happened before (at least historically), and she seems to take soul-rebirth and prophecy as a matter of fact.

So, IMO, that makes Rand special and different from all other souls. It's not just that he's the Chosen One, but he's the same Chosen One soul. The Creator (or whomever) didn't choose a different soul to be the savior of humanity. He chose the exact same soul. (Well...we think so, anyway... ;-) )

And the fact that Rand is the only non-Forsaken male channeler POV we have (or do we have one from Logain now...can't recall...don't think so) is not in some way proof. It just means that our evidence is severely limited. It means generalizing from Rand to all male channelers may not be the best idea, especially when given evidence of Taint-madness that manifests itself in completely different ways than "hearing voices".

So, I'm not saying the Taint-barrier theory is wrong. I'm saying it's highly speculative and with almost no hard evidence.

JakOShadows: 2005-06-28

Anubis: There is no way to explain the memories of the previous age in Rand's head if he is not the Dragon Reborn. There is some stuff in there that he would have no way of knowing, like what the forsaken look like or how they like to fight and confront people. So it can't be linear. And plus there has been so much talk of great people being reborn, like great generals and heroes of the horn being put into the pattern, to reconcile the fact that the dragon does not follow a certain cycle. And in this case there is a reasonable explanation if not perfected to explain why Rand has more past memories than most: the taint on saidin. Now granted there are questions of plausibility still floating around, but for the most part people agree that the taint is breaking down the barrier between Rand and LTT's memories. So all the evidence seems to be against your explanation here.

Richard: 2005-06-28

Oops, sorry. I reply to this post reading only a couple of the TOP posts. (first time around here). I am just now reading the lasts posts. Still I posted a theory that I think makes sense. To clarify certain things:

My theory goes saying that:

Rand is the Dragon reborn. I assume there was a Dragon, a Dragon reborn (Lewis TT) and Rand. Only those three. The Aiel were the children of the dragon, not the dragon reborn (Lewis TT). And there has only been one age before (Lewis TT) -- since people started counting that is (the Dragon?)

Birgitte does not remember anything because she can't. Period. She is like any other person alive. She is even starting forgetting what she is supposed to know from the dream world.

Mat was "Given" the gift to remember a number of his previous lives by the Finns (the ones that they had access to, crossing the doors or entering the tower), as part of his wish to fill the holes in HIS memory (so they are all his memories)

Rand, as the dragon reborn can remember his previous lives (I mean he must be able to do something nobody elses can! he is the DR). It probably all started back when he began channeling (with the dreams, etc). But the problem is that he was mad as a badger in his previous life, so all he "remembers" is filtered through a mad man view of things. He does not speak with Lewis TT, nor with the DO nor the taint nor the pattern. He speaks with himself. Min once said that he would fight this other and only one would survive... well rand does not kill Lewis TT any more than Lewis TT takes over. Rand just realises that all the while it has been him (maybe after a chat with Mat?). So he has to confront himself and accept that he was Lewis TT, that he was mad, and that he is the Dragon and that above all, just like Mat and Birgitte, he is just old Rand Al-thor, the dragon reborn. He gains knowledge from his past life and is ready to fight the DO, and then the DR would die (meaning probably he would just loose his memories after the DO is dealt with), leaving Rand Al-thor happy shagging his three wives. Lucky, lucky man.

Any thoughts?

Callandor: 2005-06-29

**I think you are missing a point here... Rand is not another person in the wot. He is the dragon reborn. Brigitte has been reborn hundreds of times. How many times has the Dragon been reborn?**

No, the point is he is "just" another soul. The only thing distinguished about Rand is that he is a Hero of the Horn, almost without a doubt the most powerful channeler in existance, and almost without a doubt the strongest ta'veren in existance.

As to how many times he's been reborn, according to Birgitte, she has a lot of memories from when she was reborn again and again -- so many that the faintest and most distant are rememberances of knowing that there were thousands beforehand. That's a lot of rebirths. Now, Birgitte seems to be a few more rebirths a time compared to the Dragon's soul (after all, she seems to have been reborn once or twice already in the 3rd Age compared to Rand's one) -- so divide by 2 or 3 of what you want. That's still a lot of rebirths for the Dragon's soul. This has been going on for quite some time.

"o it goes to say that (here is the big, massive maybe) before Lewis TT there was only a Dragon not a dragon reborn."

You're getting the point that Dragon and Dragon Reborn -- are nothing more than names. The same thing for the "Last Battle". Is it going to be the last and final battle? No. It had the possibility, it's going to be a big clash, but it will not be the last battle becaue we know that the Light "wins" in at least the sense that the Dark One does not break free.

"ere is the twist: Rand has a similar problem to Mat. He "remebers" his previous lifes. Now, Mat is sane, and all his previous memories (which btw, are hundreds) are of sane people."

That part, is not a similar problem. Mat has seperate memories that are originally not his own, in his head. However, he did specifically at one point remember a moment that is undoubtedly a previous incarnation -- in The Dragon Reborn (happens to be his first POV chapter too).

This is why it's not as simple as Rand has other memories in his head = he's crazed like he is. There are other factors in here. The memories being there do add to it, but they aren't the only single cause.

" man who had a "voice in his head"."

As far as we know, Lews Therin did not hear voices in the same way that Rand did. This I feel is further proof that the taint affects male channelers in two dynamic ways -- one is the breakdown of the barrier over time, the second is that it causes "general madness" in them (how one person can be totally seperate and distant from reality (Lews Therin), how one can revert back to a child (Fedwin Morr), how one can think spiders are crawling all over him (the unnamed Solider at the Black Tower), and finally the appearance of a seperate voice in one's head (Rand)).

"hat is, there is no specific, planned rebirth as far as we know."

So, by this, you would say that Mat and Perrin are Heroes of the Horn?

"but we do know that is exactly what happens with the Chosen One. He is reborn from the same guy that tried to defeat the DO 3,500 years ago. According to one of the Forsaken, that has never happened before (at least historically), and she seems to take soul-rebirth and prophecy as a matter of fact.

So, IMO, that makes Rand special and different from all other souls. It's not just that he's the Chosen One, but he's the same Chosen One soul. The Creator (or whomever) didn't choose a different soul to be the savior of humanity. He chose the exact same soul. (Well...we think so, anyway... ;-) )"

1. The only difference in general between Rand and any other soul, is that he was Prophecized to be reborn.

2. The Creator took no part in Rand's birth -- that was the Wheel and the Pattern at work.

3. Of course it will be the same soul. He's the Dragon's soul. He is the Champion of the Light, reborn to fight the Shadow -- the only difference I believe is that RJ once alluded to a female counterpart who would take over as the "Dragon soul" (but different soul all together) if it required a woman -- but again, only alluded to in an interview, so it's kinda questionable (since I believe it was a signing report, even though I myself would still give it the benefit of the doubt).

"or do we have one from Logain now...can't recall...don't think so"

Nope. Blasted RJ is being tricksy! ;)

"It means generalizing from Rand to all male channelers may not be the best idea, especially when given evidence of Taint-madness that manifests itself in completely different ways than "hearing voices"."

1. Cadsuane asserts that male channelers have heard voices the same way that Rand has (doubt if you would call it the exact same way, but it's there), so that objection I believe to be pointless.

2. I've already explained how taint madness and barrier degredation can be completely seperate.

"I'm saying it's highly speculative and with almost no hard evidence."

1. There is undisputed proof of existance of a barrier between past and present lives.

2. There is proof of the corrosive nature of the taint (don't think that proof is really necessary given it's contsant discription, but it is there).

3. There is assertions by Rand that memories from Lews Therin are crossing over some kind of a barrier.

4. There is a very strong correlation between the amount of taint that Rand takes in, and the growth in presence and strength of Lews Therin in Rand's head.

What's for your side of it? Belief. It basically boils down to, "Well, Rand is a special case (even when he technically is not!), so, who knows what could happen?" And that's the gist of it.

"Rand is the Dragon reborn. I assume there was a Dragon, a Dragon reborn (Lewis TT) and Rand. Only those three. The Aiel were the children of the dragon, not the dragon reborn (Lewis TT). And there has only been one age before (Lewis TT) -- since people started counting that is (the Dragon?)"

The Wheel has been turning for many more times than simply 3 Ages. Many more.

"Birgitte does not remember anything because she can't. Period. She is like any other person alive. She is even starting forgetting what she is supposed to know from the dream world."

Just that she remembers many, many, many, MANY previous rebirths, before she was ripped out of tel'aran'rhiod.

"(I mean he must be able to do something nobody elses can! he is the DR)"

And that's the thing -- everybody seems to think that there needs to be a special aspect of Rand.

He's special enough already!

He's a Hero of the Horn, he's one of the most if not the most powerful channelers in existance, and he is the greatest known example of being a ta'veren -- what else is needed here?

"It probably all started back when he began channeling (with the dreams, etc)."

So, the dreams where he is pulled into tel'aran'rhiod by Ishamael, were in fact early symptoms of this? No. They weren't. They were Ishamael pulling him into tel'aran'rhiod.

"He does not speak with Lewis TT, nor with the DO nor the taint nor the pattern. He speaks with himself."

That's one part that you and I agree on.

Rand is in actuality, speaking to himself. He has created an alternate personality due to memories from his previous incarnation due to taint degredation, general taint madness, stress from being the Dragon Reborn (carrying that big weight for humanity and all), and the supression of his emotions so ruthlessly because he believes he needs to be hard.

This is why I feel that if Lews Therin actually reached for and took hold of saidin -- nothing would happen except that Rand would realize he was holding saidin. He would finally realize that Lews Therin isn't real.

"He gains knowledge from his past life and is ready to fight the DO, and then the DR would die (meaning probably he would just loose his memories after the DO is dealt with), leaving Rand Al-thor happy shagging his three wives."

Except for the source of knowledge, and this ending, I would agree with you. Rand will die. People will cry and anguish, but he will die.

Richard: 2005-06-29

Excellent reply! I am new to all this theories so I'm learning as I go. I have not thought of Rand as a Hero, just as the Dragon reborn. Can you coment on the following Callandor:

On the Birgitte issue, she said that she is already forgetting everything, and that she is afraid she'll forget it all. Which seems to indicate that she should not remember and the pattern is acerting itself. Heroes would remember in between re-encarnations, not while they live. Birgitte said that. So even if Rand is a Hero, he should not be able to remember.

On the Dragon vs. Dragon reborn. Why are the aiel the children of the Dragon? In a time where there was a Dragon reborn. There was a diference between these two names in the AoL then.

Finally, didn't Mat asked for the holes in HIS memory to be filled? If the Finns gave Mat those "memories" they should be his not the memories of other random "souls" who might even be living right now. That would make even less sense. If the idea was battle training, why not throw Hawkin in the mix, they all agree he was the best (and he might have passed through the tower in Finnland).

By the way, Lewis TT did hear voices. He says as much when he "tells" Rand about this "other". Taking with a voice in your head is something we all can understand, but talking with a voice that had a voice in its "head"... I don't know, I just don't think its likely.

Anubis: 2005-06-29

**This is why I feel that if Lews Therin actually reached for and took hold of saidin -- nothing would happen except that Rand would realize he was holding saidin. He would finally realize that Lews Therin isn't real. **

Rand would disagree with you. He has said that if he lost that battle he would just be a voice floating in LTTs head.

SDog: 2005-06-29

"That is, there is no specific, planned rebirth as far as we know."

So, by this, you would say that Mat and Perrin are Heroes of the Horn?

Were Mat and Perrin reborn into the same roles as the previously had, according to prophecy? Maybe you have some evidence I don't.

1. The only difference in general between Rand and any other soul, is that he was Prophecized to be reborn.

Well, he is also the one and only soul that is slated to be the savior or humanity. But that's trivial.

2. The Creator took no part in Rand's birth -- that was the Wheel and the Pattern at work.

Right. I qualified what I wrote at the time of writing, so your point 2 was, well, pointless. And anyway, the Creator created everything.

3. Of course it will be the same soul. He's the Dragon's soul. He is the Champion of the Light, reborn to fight the Shadow

But other than that, he's just like everyone else. Do you have other examples of one particular soul that is reborn to accomplish the one thing that will save the Pattern from the DO?

1. Cadsuane asserts that male channelers have heard voices the same way that Rand has (doubt if you would call it the exact same way, but it's there), so that objection I believe to be pointless.

Some men hear voices. We know that. But that's really it. It says absolutely nothing about past lives, memories, or anything like that.

2. I've already explained how taint madness and barrier degredation can be completely seperate.

OK.

1. There is undisputed proof of existance of a barrier between past and present lives.

2. There is proof of the corrosive nature of the taint (don't think that proof is really necessary given it's contsant discription, but it is there).

We know that the Taint rots physical bodies. I'm not sure you can just apply it to something totally nebulous like the barrier between souls. Maybe, but it's a little bit of a stretch.

3. There is assertions by Rand that memories from Lews Therin are crossing over some kind of a barrier.

4. There is a very strong correlation between the amount of taint that Rand takes in, and the growth in presence and strength of Lews Therin in Rand's head.

Both 3 and 4 also imply that it is simply channeling that has caused LTT's presence to become stronger.

What's for your side of it? Belief. It basically boils down to, "Well, Rand is a special case (even when he technically is not!), so, who knows what could happen?" And that's the gist of it.

Well, for starters, this isn't my theory, so the burden of proof isn't on me. Second, as I've said numerous times, this theory is plausible. But there are holes in it, and I like to point those out. You've done a fine job of explaining the theory, better than anyone else has.

As an added comment...

And that's the thing -- everybody seems to think that there needs to be a special aspect of Rand.

He's special enough already!

He's a Hero of the Horn, he's one of the most if not the most powerful channelers in existance, and he is the greatest known example of being a ta'veren -- what else is needed here?

Absolutely nothing. He's special enough that he the Taint-Barrier theory may not be the exclusive explanation for LTT”s presence in his head. Could be the Wheel giving the Chosen One a break (or trying, since LTT is insane). =)

Callandor: 2005-06-30

**Finally, didn't Mat asked for the holes in HIS memory to be filled? If the Finns gave Mat those "memories" they should be his not the memories of other random "souls" who might even be living right now. That would make even less sense. If the idea was battle training, why not throw Hawkin in the mix, they all agree he was the best (and he might have passed through the tower in Finnland).**

Of course it should have been that. Was it? Absolutely not. Why? The Eelfinn love to twist the wishes.

To finalize it, here is RJ confirming:

**Q: What exactly are Mats memories, are they from his ancestors, as they all seem to be connected to Manetheren??

A: mat' memories are NOT from his ancestors. He said I want to have the holes in his head filled but he did not specify exactly what he wanted them filled with and so he received scraps and bits and pieces of memories stolen from other men.**

**By the way, Lewis TT did hear voices. He says as much when he "tells" Rand about this "other".**

That's hardly saying anything about Lews Therin hearing voices. Also, you didn't quite specify -- I thought you meant when Lews Therin was actually alive, not the voice in Rand's head.

**Rand would disagree with you. He has said that if he lost that battle he would just be a voice floating in LTTs head.**

Of course Rand would, which is why this is just a belief -- for now. After all, Rand has not let Lews Therin hold saidin as far as we know. But, that is more supported due to the quote -- however, it has not happened as far as we know of course :)

**Were Mat and Perrin reborn into the same roles as the previously had, according to prophecy? Maybe you have some evidence I don't.**

No that is not at all what I am saying, SDog.

You said:

**I think the point, Callandor, is that, other than Heroes and the Chosen One, every other soul is reborn in some random fashion. That is, there is no specific, planned rebirth as far as we know.**

So, going by this, Mat at least (and Perrin) would be a Heroe(s) of the Horn because there is a prophecy about him. He is not a random soul reborn, like all the others. Difference between him and Rand? Mat doesn't know what was his previous incarnation. Rand does.

**Well, he is also the one and only soul that is slated to be the savior or humanity. But that's trivial.**

Yet, apparently, the Dragon has turned to the Shadow, and yet people are still here. Interesting!

**Right. I qualified what I wrote at the time of writing, so your point 2 was, well, pointless. And anyway, the Creator created everything.**

No, my point was to show that your statement was misleading -- and of course the Creator created everything.

**But other than that, he's just like everyone else. Do you have other examples of one particular soul that is reborn to accomplish the one thing that will save the Pattern from the DO?**

Signing information:

**Let's try and clear some of this up... I can't remember the exact question, but from what I read in this thread, it doesn't matter (I haven't read the Female Dragon thread). RJ said that, no, it is not possible to have a female dragon. If the wheel needs a female dragon, then it would weave in *insert female dragon name here*. Probably because of the blank faces he was getting he then added, you can find her in the scene where Mat blows the horn...

He also said that a soul ready to be reborn cannot change gender, therefor the dragon is ALWAYS male.**

**Some men hear voices. We know that. But that's really it. It says absolutely nothing about past lives, memories, or anything like that.**

Of course not -- but your reply was implying that hearing voices is restricted to Rand, and he is not a good source.

**We know that the Taint rots physical bodies. I'm not sure you can just apply it to something totally nebulous like the barrier between souls. Maybe, but it's a little bit of a stretch.**

Think about that first, SDog. How does a metaphysical property (since I don't even know if it would be correct to classify the taint as matter in the traditional sense -- just being technical in phrasing for the time), effect physical bodies? Yet, it does not effect other metaphysical bodies?

**Both 3 and 4 also imply that it is simply channeling that has caused LTT's presence to become stronger.**

How? If it was simply channeling, then female channelers would be suffering from the same thing -- unless of course it falls into your answer of complete duex ex machina because "Rand is special," and that is also completely setting aside the taint madness that Rand is having similar to what other male channelers have had.

**Could be the Wheel giving the Chosen One a break (or trying, since LTT is insane).**

So the Wheel is treating Rand as a very special soul and altered, on it's own, Rand's barrier between past and present life?

Or, could it just happen to be a similarity that doesn't exclude both, the Pattern actually took into account what the taint does? Or, if you want to go for very far flung, the Pattern counted on the Dark One's counterstroke, set up the Fateful Concord, so Lews Therin would go ahead with his plan to use the seals, giving the Dark One the ability to taint saidin, and giving these eventual circumstances with Rand.

Richard: 2005-06-30

mmm, I was waiting for callandor to reply to my comments but SDog made me think of something: Mat and Perrin ARE heroes of the horn. Hawkin pretty much says so! When the horn is blown Hawkin says nothing to Perrin or Mat but he does point out that the thief catcher is not (but that you never know, maybe the pattern is calling him to join from now on). If Perrin and Mat were not part of "the Club", Hawkin would have pointed that out as well. As for being reborn on similar tasks or roles, Birgitte said (when she still remembered most of her lives) that she sometimes lived and died without doing anything particularly important (from her point of view) or daring, or adventurous. That sometimes the pattern chose her for "small jobs".

By the same token, Rand is not a Hero. Hawkin says as much. Rand is the Dragon reborn, who was Lewis TT before. The heros are called by the horn but follow the Dragon. Remember the note about the banner? They HAD to follow the banner, the heroes are attached to the horn but more importanlty to they follow the Dragon. The horn is just something used to call them to arms, o, they have to follow the horn blower, which would have been Mat, but not when the Dragon is present. Hawkin again says as much. If Rand was just a hero, he would have had to follow Mat as the horn blower.

Callandor: 2005-06-30

**By the same token, Rand is not a Hero.**

No, Rand is a Hero of the Horn. RJ has confirmed it:

**Q: "Is this soul born in any other age, or only at the advent and the closing of the Third Age, as The Dragon/TDR?"

A: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age.**

IE: When the Age requires a savior named Fred, the Dragon soul fulfills that role too -- it's just called Fred, since The Dragon and the Dragon Reborn are titles given to him by humanity.

terez: 2005-07-01

I think there is good solid physical evidence that LTT is indeed real in his co-existence with Rand. Most character descriptions give the color of Rand's eyes as blue-gray. In fact, at the beginning of the series, they were just plain gray. A little later on in the series, they were "now gray, now blue." Towards the even later books, they are just blue, quite often, and I think you'll find RJ mentions the morning blue eyes when he has already demonstrated Rand's situational acceptance of LTT in his head.

Richard: 2005-07-03

OK... So Rand is a hero and a sould bound to the wheel (Thanks for that note Callandor, I was not aware of that comment by RJ). That certainlly complicate things. I still think Rand is talking to himself though, and that he will realise it and accept it and hence completing Min's viewing.

But I don't think his LTT knowledge comes of something as complicated as the taint demolishing barriers through time. I still think is something akin to Mat's memories. Where Rand can "remember" previous lives (in this case the Dragon reborns) but one of them was mad so Rand is having problems "accesing" these memories. (or maybe is just me being stubborn because Callandor just punch a huge whole through my theory ;-) ).

BTW, Does anybody know for sure, when was that Rand "heard" LTT for the FIRST time?

hale: 2005-07-03

I've seen a lot of commentary suggest birgitte was ripped out of T'A'R and her memories are fading because of it. I don't believe that.

Wouldn't it make more sense that her memories are fading because the wheel spun her out? It may not have spun her out as it had in past ages, but it spun her out in that specific instance because that's where it needed her. Now Birgitte's memories fade so she can do the tasks in front of her without being daunted by the legend she must live up to.

Callandor: 2005-07-03

**But I don't think his LTT knowledge comes of something as complicated as the taint demolishing barriers through time. I still think is something akin to Mat's memories.**

That is in essence what the taint degredation theory is. Because the taint damaged the barrier between past and present lives so much, those memories have come through and are accessible by Rand. He can remember them, he can use them, he can learn from them. But also recognizes them as something foreign -- something he should not know.

All the theory is, is how this happened.

And Rand "heard" Lews Therin for the first time in The Fires of Heaven chpater 2, Rhuidean, when Lews Therin first remarks on Ilyena and how Rand can bring her image to thought even though he has never seen her in his life.

Also in this chapter, are 2 other phrases that are distinct slips that have come from Lews Therin:

1. The Can Breat

2. Rand calls Moiraine "little sister"

However, the first memory/thing that came from obvious Lews Therin knowledge for sure, was in The Shadow Rising, chapter 9, Decisions, when Rand tells Lanfear that she loved power, and he didn't know where it came from but knew it was right to say.

Finally, in chapter 10 of The Shadow Rising, The Stone Stands, there is a voice that Rand hears when channeling the seeking-lightning weave that kills all the Trollocs. Now, this is never identified as Lews Therin, but it is generally accepted to be his first "appearance" -- but the one in The Fires of Heaven is the first definate case of his appearance.

Callandor: 2005-07-03

**Wouldn't it make more sense that her memories are fading because the wheel spun her out?**

That is the general idea -- she was ripped out (so she is alive and has a thread in the Pattern), so she can no longer remember all her memories. The Wheel did not spin her out in any fashion -- RJ himself said that what Moghediend did was similar to "short-circuiting" the Pattern.

Aeris Sedai: 2005-07-04

I am a newbie, and I haven't read the whole thread (it's sooo long!), but I do have my own pet theory as to why Rand has the voice of Lews Therin in his head.

The theory of reincarnation as expressed in our world states that the soul is reborn into a new body, and that adepts can remember past lives, but ordinary people can't. What makes Rand different is that the voice of LTT isn't a memory, it's an actual personality in his head. This only makes sense if you allow that the personality is distinct from the soul. The personality usually dies when the body dies, leaving only an imprint upon the soul to guide it in future incarnations. In the case of LTT, his personality did not die, but remained as a ghost haunting Dragonmount where he died. Note that LTT is not sure whether or not he is dead, a characteristic that has been attributed to ghosts. I believe that the voice Rand is hearing is the voice of LTT's ghost.

I once thought that LTT was actually still alive and imprisoned inside Dragonmount in the same way that the Forsaken where imprisoned behind the Seal, but if that were the case, how could his soul have been reborn in Rand? So now I favor the ghost theory.

JakOShadows: 2005-07-04

Callandor: I see what you saying. It is not technically being spun out. But as far as memories are concerned it has the same effect as being sput out. The only difference is the method of becoming part of the pattern.

JakOShadows: 2005-07-04

terez: Good attention to detail. It brings to mind the saying that the eyes are the window into the soul. Do you think its something like that or is it something else affecting it? But that definitely does contribute to the theory as further proof that LTT's presence is in Rand's head.

Callandor: 2005-07-05

**What makes Rand different is that the voice of LTT isn't a memory, it's an actual personality in his head.**

The idea is that the memories gave a backbone of reality in Rand's mind enough so that a second personality developed. Lews Therin is not a memory -- but he is based off of memories.

**In the case of LTT, his personality did not die, but remained as a ghost haunting Dragonmount where he died.**

Except that personalities are not ghosts.

**Callandor: I see what you saying. It is not technically being spun out. But as far as memories are concerned it has the same effect as being sput out. The only difference is the method of becoming part of the pattern.**

Exactly, that's what the general idea is.

terez: 2005-07-05

Jak, even though LTT's eyes are dark, I think the shift is important. I will have to document it thoroughly to convince anyone, though, and that will be difficult to do because the mention of his eye color is usually in someone else's POV. As to the something else affecting it, I will try to post a theory on that soon. I already tried, actually, but I think it was too short and I didn't use enough documentation.

mazrimashaman: 2005-07-06

well, Maby this was said already but I didn't have time to go through ALL of the posts here, but it seems to me that the voice is not mad, there are some perfectly rational explanations to every thing that sounds mad, main point being, just his personality, and the fact that its in rands head, may be enough to make him seem mad, but think about every thing he says and there is a way of thinking about it

Hank McCoy: 2005-07-06

There is no question that Mat has the memories of dead men in his head. Beside the old blood being strong in Mat, the Finn given memories are the greatest source of Mat's abilities with the Old Tongue. The men's memories give Mat knowledge (mostly military) but they also manifest themselves in his accent.

A Crown of Swords

Chapter 21,Swovan Night

“What language do we speak, Hornsounder?"

He opened his mouth... and stopped, really hearing what she had just asked. Nosane iro gavane domorakoshi, Diynen'd'ma'purvene? Speak we what language, Sounder of the Horn? The hair on his neck tried to stand. "The old blood," he said carefully. Not in the Old Tongue. "An Aes Sedai once told me the old blood runs strong in What are you bloody well laughing at now?"

"You, Mat," she managed while trying not to double over. At least she was not speaking the Old Tongue any more either. She knuckled a tear from the corner of her eye. "Some people speak a few words, a phrase or two, because of the old blood. Usually without understanding what they say, or not quite. But you... One sentence, you're an Eharoni High Prince and the next a First Lord of Manetheren, accent and idiom perfect. No, don't worry. Your secret is safe with me." She hesitated. "Is mine with you?"

-----

So, if LTT is actually in Rand's head we should be seeing a similar trend. Rand should slip into tirades induced by LTT and speak in the Old Tongue. We have seen Rand bust out a rant or two about one of the Forsaken, remember parts of another's childhood and display mannerisms not associated with Rand. However, there are many instances of Rand admitting that he does not understand any more than a word or two of the Old Tongue. Why is this? LTT should be as great of a help as Mat's memories if he is truly in Rand's head. There are two instances that Rand does understand a couple words of the Old Tongue. Rand attributes this recognition to LTT. However, other characters, mainly form the Two River, occasionally pick out Old Tongue phrases. Therefore, two instances out of many can not be concluded as proof of LTT guiding Rand in the Old Tongue.

The Shadow Rising

Chapter 6, Doorways

"She [Moiraine] grimaced. "It applies to this as well as it does to anything. Illian under Sammael is surely a forsaken city. Lead the Tairen spears to war, chain Sammael, and he [Rand] has fulfilled the verse. The ancient dream of the Dragon Reborn. But he [Rand] will not see it. He [Rand] even has a copy in the Old Tongue, as if he understood two words. He runs after shadows, and Sammael, or Rahvin, or Lanfear may have him by the throat before I can convince him [Rand] of his [Rand] mistake."

The Shadow Rising

Chapter 7, Playing With Fire

"Eyes darting to Elayne and back to her, he made another abrupt shift. "What about the Old Tongue? Did you [Egwene] learn any of that in the White Tower?" . . .

"Rand." Egwene raised her voice. "Rand, I cannot read the Old Tongue." She shot a look at Elayne, warning her not to admit to any such knowledge. They had not come to translate the Prophecies of the Dragon for him. . .

"I [Rand] have more chance of reading the Old Tongue than you do of.... Are you sure this isn't Moiraine's doing?

The Shadow Rising

Chapter 15, Into the Doorway

"Are mine," Rand replied, then frowned. "It wasn't easy, though. They brought a... woman... to interpret, but she talked like an old book. I could hardly understand some of the words. I never considered they might speak another language." "The Old Tongue," Moiraine told him. "They use the Old Tongue– a rather harsh dialect of it – for their dealings with men."

The Fires of Heaven

Chapter 46, Other Battles, Other Weapons

"Rand opened his mouth to ask the meaning – he knew a scant few words of the Old Tongue, no more – when interpretation floated to the surface in his mind. Siswai'aman. Literally, the spear of the Dragon.

The Lord of Chaos

Chapter 42, The Black Tower

"You need a name. In the Old Tongue, Aes Sedai means Servants of All, or something very close. The Old Tongue doesn't translate easily." For himself, he knew only a few words, some from Asmodean, a handful from Moiraine, some that had seeped through from Lews Therin.

------

Other characters from the Two Rivers have recognition of the Old Tongue.

A Crown of Swords

Chapter 2, The Butcher's Yard

"They are da'tsang," Sorilea said in a grim voice, as though pronouncing sentence, and Bera frowned at her. Perrin thought that was something in the Old Tongue again, the word seemed almost something he should recognize but he did not know why it should make the Aes Sedai scowl.

------

Dashiva is well versed in the Old Tongue. This is because his native tongue, being from the AOL, is the Old Tongue.

A Crown of Swords

Chapter 2, The Butcher's Yard

“The M'Hael?" Rand said, blinking.

"The Lord Mazrim Taim's title, my Lord Dragon. It means ‘leader.' In the Old Tongue." The fellow's smile managed to be nervous and patronizing at the same time. "I read a great deal on the farm. Every book the peddlers brought by."

The Path of Daggers

Chapter 13, Floating Like Snow

"Dashiva, slumped in his gray's saddle like a man who had never seen a horse before, muttered angrily under his breath. In the Old Tongue, which he spoke and read as fluently as a scholar. Rand knew a little, though not enough to understand what the fellow was mumbling. Probably complaints about the weather; despite being a farmer, Dashiva disliked being out-of-doors unless the skies were clear."

All in all, I think this is evidence that LTT may not be apart of Rand in the manner Rand believes.

Anubis: 2005-07-07

I dont think LTT is mad in the sense that the taint drove him mad, I think hes mad in the oh hey you just killed everyone you loved sense.

BranflakesAlVere: 2005-08-14

Anubis is right on the money. There's plenty of evidence in the real world of individuals going insane as a defensive mechanism when they realize they have done something atrocious. One example is the drunk driver that walks away without a scratch from the accident that killed his/her entire family.

Lews Therin is totally nuts because of this, but he's getting better. This is probably a result of continually watching Rand and thinking, "Wow, at least I never did that." And from Min's viewing we know that, sooner or later, both Rand and Lews Therin will be the same level of looney and they'll stop communicating with each other once they are on the same page mentally.

leitan sedai: 2005-09-16

Although Ishy did Heal LTT, he only did into make LTT see the destruction caused by his own actions. It was a vindictive move, obviously with destructive intent. Could LTT's grief subsequently not have caused its own sort of madness? He was already vulnerable and depressed. Having murdered his friends, family and the love of his life easily would have driven him back into madness. Not to mention the fact that he has "awoken" in someone else's body, with someone else's thoughts. He can't control this other person no matter how much he tries. Confusion from these circumstances and a total lack of control of his surroundings, not to mention the depression of being reawoken with fresh memories of having killed everyone...this could easily make anyone seem crazy, whether or not they truly are.

Beyond that, how do you explain Min's visions of Rand's and LTT's images juxtaposed on each other? LTT provides too much independent information to be a product of Rand's own impending madness. It isn't just randomly "remembered" knowledge of the One Power and forgotten tricks as seen with others who have "Old Blood" running through their veins (i.e. the Two Rivers women). He provides knowledge of specific places and people, as well as the skills of a blade master when needed. You are right that reincarnation does not involve two separate entities in one body. Perhaps LTT wasn't attached to Rand until long after he was born (just as he didn't show up in the books until later). That would explain two separate souls who can't quite coexist on the same plane. Remember, just as in nature, you can't have two entities occupying the same space and time. Species of animals will adapt and move into different niches, or one is bound to go extinct. This is true of Rand and LTT. One will have to go.

Now, Brigitte definitely has old memories of past lives. HOwever, hers is one soul with past memories still in the foreground, although they are slowly fading. She's not a person remembering past the lives of her soul. She's a soul incarnate.

Callandor: 2005-09-19

**Beyond that, how do you explain Min's visions of Rand's and LTT's images juxtaposed on each other? LTT provides too much independent information to be a product of Rand's own impending madness. It isn't just randomly "remembered" knowledge of the One Power and forgotten tricks as seen with others who have "Old Blood" running through their veins (i.e. the Two Rivers women). He provides knowledge of specific places and people, as well as the skills of a blade master when needed. You are right that reincarnation does not involve two separate entities in one body. Perhaps LTT wasn't attached to Rand until long after he was born (just as he didn't show up in the books until later). That would explain two separate souls who can't quite coexist on the same plane. Remember, just as in nature, you can't have two entities occupying the same space and time. Species of animals will adapt and move into different niches, or one is bound to go extinct. This is true of Rand and LTT. One will have to go.**

1. You're wording seems a little vague, but I just wanted to say that Rand doesn't have the Old Blood (don't think you were trying to say that, but worth saying just in case), since he's not truely from the Two Rivers.

2. How would Lews Therin become "attached" to Rand? Rand is Lews Therin's soul reborn.

**Audience: The question is, with Rand and LTT, do they have 1 soul or 2 souls in the body?

Robert Jordan:

They have 1 soul with 2 personalities. The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul. This is the cosmology that I came hobbled together.**

There's only one soul.

3. We do have evidence of two souls in one body: Padan Fain (and it's strongly implied to be what happened to Slayer).

Darkshadow: 2005-09-20

This is a reply to wat Hank McCoy said earlier about how Rand should kno the old tongue as good as Mat...... consider wat Mat asked for, to fill the holes in his memories, and wat was given to him. Now Mat has his own memories but also some tidbits stuck in as well from other people. However, Rand already remembers everything about his life.



There are no "holes in his memory" but instead new thoughts, new mannerisms, and new memories are continually being added. While Mat had space to put these new ones in his mind..... think about Rand and how the only way to categorize this is to separate it from his own mind and make a voice out of it

It's not that LTT is not in Rand's head, but that unlike Mat, who put the new memories from the finn in the gaps of his recollections, but that Rand was mostly aware of a new set of memories continually adding themselves onto his brain and the creating "LTT voice in mind" is a subconcious defense mechanism, things people in Randland dont think about.... the human psyche and its capabilities.

Hank McCoy: 2005-10-18

Warning: Knife of Dreams Spoiler






This thread died with the release KOD.

LTT is inside of Rand—he is a real voice.

primaris: 2005-11-26

I think the voice in Rands head is LTT. Everyone is the same soul resurrected hundreds of times but for Rand we know exactly who he is that's resurrected. Cadsuane said that all saidin users started hearing voices from their previous lives. so it's perfectly understandable that Rand hears voices from his previous lives. However, Min had a vision that somehow Rand and LTT would fuse into the same person. Possibly this happened in all the Dragons previous lives so they have a single voice, as opposed to many

Callandor: 2005-12-01

**Cadsuane said that all saidin users started hearing voices from their previous lives.**

Some male channelers hear voices.

**This thread died with the release KOD.

LTT is inside of Rand—he is a real voice.**

How come he couldn't control Rand then, when he grasped saidin? If he can channel, why can't he move Rand's body?

Canan Urgas: 2006-04-05

There is only one voice in rands head, which is real. lews therin thinks he is doing what rand is doing most of the time-when rand was captured by the aes sedai prior to dumais wells, lews therin said to rand that LTT himself had told the aes sedai that only six could come at once. but we know it was obviously rand. as to why and how lews therin takes control of saidin, i think this is rand showing signs of madness. after all, how can a dead man wield saidin through his next life? i think asking RJ about this at an interview would be a good idea

Callandor: 2006-04-07

**lews therin thinks he is doing what rand is doing most of the time-when rand was captured by the aes sedai prior to dumais wells, lews therin said to rand that LTT himself had told the aes sedai that only six could come at once. but we know it was obviously rand. as to why and how lews therin takes control of saidin, i think this is rand showing signs of madness. after all, how can a dead man wield saidin through his next life?**

1. Rand and Lews Therin share mirrored thoughts, sometimes feelings, knowledge, and both "see" the real world. One truly begins to wonder that if Lews Therin is real, how come he is sharing so much with Rand?

2. Rand is just showing signs of madness? He's been doing that for a long time.

3. How would signs of madness be effecting a previous incarnation to be actively channeling? I know one way, but it makes you have to give up the notion that Lews Therin is real.

4. How can a dead man wield saidin through his next life? Interesting question. The answer I'd go with is: he can't. Because Lews Therin is not real.

Canan Urgas: 2006-04-18

1. Rand and Lews Therin share mirrored thoughts, sometimes feelings, knowledge, and both "see" the real world. One truly begins to wonder that if Lews Therin is real, how come he is sharing so much with Rand?

2. Rand is just showing signs of madness? He's been doing that for a long time.

3. How would signs of madness be effecting a previous incarnation to be actively channeling? I know one way, but it makes you have to give up the notion that Lews Therin is real.

4. How can a dead man wield saidin through his next life? Interesting question. The answer I'd go with is: he can't. Because Lews Therin is not real.

1. they are both male channelers who are at least partly insane. the fact that rand expects the insanity to take effect makes it do so in certain ways which are influenced by lews therins voice in his head.

2 & 3. i didnt mean JUST NOW thats one of the signs. dont take what i write too literally. lews therin channeling, in my opinion, is ONE sign of madness in rand. hes skitsofrenic (spelling)like gollum/smeagol. maybe its abit like the wildness of the mind that rand gets, which is worse when he uses callandor (YES I KNOW HE WASNT USING CALLANDOR WHEN LEWS THERIN TOOK OVER BEFORE YOU SAY THAT)

4. read what semirhage said about madness linking you to your past life. madness creates a link with you and your past life, one soul with two personalities. have you seen me, myself and irene? well i imagine rand and lews therin abit like that. even though rand is aware when lews uses saidin and rand can move this is a fantasy world and the rules are different. maybe this should be asked of RJ if anyone has an interview with him coming up?

Callandor: 2006-04-19

**1. they are both male channelers who are at least partly insane. the fact that rand expects the insanity to take effect makes it do so in certain ways which are influenced by lews therins voice in his head.**

You're forgetting that Lews Therin is 3000+ years dead.

And you're not even coming close to what I am talking about. I'm talking about Rand and Lews Therin having thoughts so similar that even Rand doesn't know whether they were his own or Lews Therin's.

Logain is a male channeler along with Rand; he doesn't mirror Rand's thoughts exactly in certain instances (and he definately does not see things that Rand is seeing either). Fedwin Morr went insane; he definately did not see things exactly as Rand does, nor mirror in feelings/thoughts/words exactly.

**2 & 3. i didnt mean JUST NOW thats one of the signs. dont take what i write too literally. lews therin channeling, in my opinion, is ONE sign of madness in rand. hes skitsofrenic (spelling)like gollum/smeagol. maybe its abit like the wildness of the mind that rand gets, which is worse when he uses callandor (YES I KNOW HE WASNT USING CALLANDOR WHEN LEWS THERIN TOOK OVER BEFORE YOU SAY THAT)**

1. Of course I'm going to take you literally when you write something -- what other reason is there, unless you want to throw in sarcasm that's going to hopefully be obvious?

2. As I said, how would signs of madness be effecting a previous incarnation to be actively channeling? I know one way, and it has lots of evidence for it, it's well argued, supported, and presented. But it makes you have to give up the notion that Lews Therin is real.

**read what semirhage said about madness linking you to your past life.**

I have -- it doesn't explain everything we've seen with Rand; in fact what we've seen in several instances largely contradicts what Semirhage says (hence, why I don't believe it).

**have you seen me, myself and irene? well i imagine rand and lews therin abit like that.**

Here's the problem: Lews Therin Telamon is dead. He is no more. He has ceased to be. How can a dead man wield saidin through his next life? Simply saying "Oh, Semirhage explains this." isn't answering the question or even addressing it.

Say Lews Therin is real. Why, when he channels through Rand's body, can he not control Rand's body? He can see through Rand's eyes, he seems to share thoughts exactly with Rand on many instances, he can control his link to saidin -- but he can't control Rand's body? Why? If he's real, it's easly assumed he would just completely take over Rand.

Say Lews Therin is real. Where did he go when Rand confronted Cadsuane? He disappeared after that and did not reappear until roughly half-way through The Path of Daggers. Why?

How come he gradually gains more and more influence over Rand? Why is it a gradual increase in presence, ability, and strength if he's real? A personality is the entirety of a person's experiences/memories. Rand certainly does not have access to all of Lews Therin's memories (he does have quite a bit, though, but not all). So, how can this be Lews Therin, without all of them? Why is this gradual, instead of a "not present" to "present" change as it should be if he was real?

Now, say Lews Therin is not real. All these problems disappear.

Lews Therin cannot control Rand's body, because Lews Therin is truly RAND. When Lews Therin reaches for saidin, it is truly Rand doing so, and channeling. He's just so mad that he thinks it's Lews Therin doing it. "Lews Therin" taking control of Rand's body is impossible; he can't take control of his body away from himself. The same way he cannot take control of saidin from himself; he's never truly lost it -- it's always been Rand.

If you believe Lews Therin is deep down truly Rand, the mirroring is easily explained: of course they mirror! They're one and the same! What Rand sees, Lews Therin sees because Lews Therin is truly Rand. What Rand remembers, Lews Therin remembers because Lews Therin is truly Rand.

Where Lews Therin went is also easily explained. While Lews Therin and Rand continue to mirror each other more and more, it's also quite interesting to see how they differ. One of the largest is in ways that they express emotions, and what types. Specifically, Rand almost always supresses all his emotions, and Lews Therin constantly expresses sadness, laughter, fear, anger -- exactly the ones Rand is almost always supressing and needs to relearn (see the importance of Cadsuane's teaching, yet?). What happened was simple: Cadsuane pissed Rand off. Rand expressed his emotions geuinely and without that emotional supression, Lews Therin disappeared. Eventually, because Rand soon went back to supressing his emotions, Lews Therin returned.

Why is this gradual? Because the key to this process is the taint, specifically the effect the taint has on the barrier between past and present lives. It takes time to degrade that barrier, and the more taint makes this go faster and more impactful as time goes on. We see marked increases in Lews Therin's presence, strength, and even his first appearances after Rand has channeled massive amounts of taint. Notably, after taking Callandor and using it to kill Ishamael -- Rand first has knowledge of events he should not know (the "you loved power" to Lanfear quote). Very close to this, or soon after enough to really make no difference, Rand uses Callandor again and hears what is undoubtedly the startings of Lews Therin in the "Now" quotes when he uses his lightning seeking weave -- another trick that Lews Therin used before and more knowledge Rand should not have. After using the Choedan Kal to in a duel with Asmodean -- Lews Therin first appears in form and speaks. As time goes on this gets more and more apparent.

Why this is important is because the more the barrier between past and present lives is broken down, the more memories (not personalities) seep through into Rand's memories. These were Lews Therin's memories; those are genuine. But they're not Lews Therin. Lews Therin is a construct created from, and as a reaction against, these memories by Rand.

BladeoftheWarder: 2006-05-03

In response th Tamyrlin's post I would like to say that if the voice in Rand's head is in fact a by-product of the taint then how does the voice know the things it knows? It seems to have genuine knoweldge of life in the AoL. How can we explain this?

JakOShadows: 2006-05-05

Bladeofthewarder:

The memories start appearing when he has channeled a lot. So I believe the taint on saidin breaks down the barrier between the past and current life of the soul of the channeler. And then the voice comes as a result of a massive case pscizofrenia, into which Rand feeds all his emotions and fears in an attempt to suppress them. So the voice was completely created by Rand is not real at all, and the voice is just conveniently tied to all his memories of LTT, because he hasn't fully embraced them yet.

Callandor: 2006-05-05

**In response th Tamyrlin's post I would like to say that if the voice in Rand's head is in fact a by-product of the taint then how does the voice know the things it knows? It seems to have genuine knoweldge of life in the AoL. How can we explain this?**

Think you got the name wrong, but I don't think anyone is claiming that Lews Therin is a complete by-product of the taint madness.

Rand is mad because Lews Therin is in his head. The taint madness almost assuredly played a part in developing this second personality in his head that formed into Lews Therin. However, that personality is based off of real memories from Lews Therin because the taint is breaking down Rand's barrier between past and present lives allowing the memories to come into Rand's head.

It's a dual process. The taint does cause madness eventually in channelers (and it assuredly is playing a part in Rand's mind), but the taint also breaks down the barrier between past and present lives. Because of this breakdown, the genuine memories from Lews Therin cross over, and serve as the basis of the personality that eventually became Lews Therin. That is why Rand can know things he should not know, and that they are true.

Lugh of the Vanth: 2006-11-18

I just want to say this, because its something that's bothered me for a while.

The taint is not the only way that a person can be driven insane. Maddness exists outside of the Power. Mayhaps LTT was cured of his Taint-maddness, just to go insane upon realizing that he destroyed his world and killed every person he loved including his wife and children. I personally think that that knowledge would drive me mad.

JakOShadows: 2006-11-20

Lugh:

That is possible if you assume that LTT is a separate person. But I think the reason LTT is acting crazy is because Rand believes that he has a crazy personality in his head due to his memories. So LTT in Rand's head isn't actually crazy, or even really LTT himself; it's just a personification of those memories, which Rand subconsciously forms into a crazy reincarnation of LTT.

Of course this all depends on whether you believe LTT is real or a personality created by Rand I guess.;)

BrainFireBob: 2006-11-21

I posted an alternative theory- Tamyrlin's looking for it. Short version: LTT believed he deserved "eternal death".

There's various supports but . .ultimately, I proposed he sealed his soul in Dragonmount. Which had the effect of a 3000 year sensory deprivation tank.

Rand's life would seem just another hallucination- until he started shooting up and getting high (using the Power).

LTT's been trapped with his guilt for 3000 years, so he IS crazy, but not Taint-crazy. Only way I could find to explain both the Callandor ward, the location of Tar Valon, and why LTT remembers so much- death erases memories from a soul- and in tel'aran'rhiod, with the perspective of however many lifetimes, LTT wouldn't be so unhinged over his wife dying.

I also think this is the source of his "Haven't I suffered enough?" and "I want to die forever" remarks- he enacted his own punishment, escaping Ishamael and the DO, and on some level thinks it was enough.

Callandor: 2006-11-21

**Only way I could find to explain both the Callandor ward, the location of Tar Valon, and why LTT remembers so much- death erases memories from a soul- and in tel'aran'rhiod, with the perspective of however many lifetimes, LTT wouldn't be so unhinged over his wife dying.**

Death does not erase memories from the soul -- Birgitte remembers all her past lives, unless their many, many incarnations in the past. Something blocks the current incarnation from getting access to the previous incarnation memories -- but they're still there on the soul, just blocked.

TheDragonMustLive: 2006-12-23

I didn't read all the replies on this, so if I repeat someone, I'm sorry. I have to say I'm of two minds on this--I like BrainFireBob's theory about the soul being sealed in Dragonmount, because that seems to make a lot of sense. The other thing, though, is that Cadsuane commented on Callandor enhancing the taint on saidin. Perhaps using Callandor is what started breaking down the memory barrier. None of the other male channelers have used it so none of the others could suffer the effect (remember that letting a woman control a circle in which a male channeler is using Callandor eliminates that weakness). So it could be a byproduct of the taint that isn't truly noticeable unless Callandor enhances it.

Callandor: 2006-12-24

**The other thing, though, is that Cadsuane commented on Callandor enhancing the taint on saidin. Perhaps using Callandor is what started breaking down the memory barrier.**

In a sense, yes that's the barrier degradation theory, but it's not due to just Callandor. Callandor just allows Rand to channel FAR more taint that normally anyone else would over years -- made worse by the fact that Rand is so strong innately. Cadsuane's references to Callandor's effect on the taint seems more in line with making it more... effective I guess. For instance, Rand gets the delusions of invincibility, that he can do anything -- even raising the dead. But that seems to be what it is refered to, and just that.

But it does increase the amount of taint that enters into someone just because it increases the amount of saidin that can be channeled. The angreal Rand had would do the same effect to his barrier (because degradation of the barrier is based on amount of taint), yet because the angreal has a buffer Rand wouldn't get the delusions of granduer that he gets with Callandor.

Laelliwyn: 2007-04-15

Dichotomy and balance is important in WoT. Light and Shadow, Good vs. Evil, and the more relevant: Flesh and Spirit. The Pattern laid out is of them main reality, or the Flesh. (These are meant to be abstract generalities so that following my reasoning is easier.) T'A'R among other realms fall under the category of Spirit. T'A'R hosts the Hero souls, and these souls retain all their memories. Memories are attached to the Soul, and that is very significant. When Birgitte enters the physical World of the Flesh, or some one is reborn into it, the memories are blocked. Or in Birgitte's case, they fade away; if she were somehow reworked into T'A'R and Moggy's damage was undone, would her memories come back? Anyway, my first point is the difference of Flesh and Spirit, (body and soul; corporeal and incorporeal) is important.

LTT seized Saidin, but mastery of Rand's aT body is not the same task. How can LTT handle Saidin? Arangar channels Saidin. Why? I think that the soul is more important to channelling than the body. Two personalities share the same soul, and thus LTT can use Saidin within Rand. OP and Channeling are linked to the Soul. OP is closer to being something of the Spirit, than of the Flesh.

Blurring the lines between Spirit and Flesh is a dangerous thing. Birgitte's soul becoming flesh and blood, or Rand's body entering a place of Spirit. If a Dreamwalker is in T'A'R and a gateway is opened to T'A'R from the world of Flesh; and the Dream Walker's incorporeal self walks through that gateway into the real world; what happens? Is this not akin to what happened to Birgitte. Spirit to Flesh. And entering T'A'R physically may be considered the reverse? This blurs the lines, and makes it confusing. Screwing with the natural order of things has consequences. Rand aT has a lot wrong with him, in his head, as well as wounds that haven't gone away with the removal of SL and the Taint. The consequences could be a factor, besides the obviousness of the DO and Fain still being around. Can Birgitte get her faded memories back? When she entered the Flesh, did she suddenly translate there as a soul wearing a new body, or is her soul now her new body. If the latter, her memories may never come back, and if she dies, she may be dead for good; not a pleasant thought.

Rand aT is crazy, in one form or another. He is psyche roommates with his precarnation. He channelled tainted Saidin, so he touched the taint first, in order to use the OP, even if it may not have made him loopy, it certainly did not help. He has used Callandor, known to be detrimental to the psyche, and magnify the taint. He's been inflicted with Shadow and

Logoth wounds. He repeatedly entered the Dream World physically. He is a Hero. He has a weird Balefire spawned Link with Morridin. He is Ta'varen and linked to his fellow Ta'varen in one form or another. Used insane amounts of Power to cleanse Saidin. Killed/considers himself responsible for many deaths. Finally, he is the freaking Chosen One of WOT among other things. Even if no single cause can be blamed; collectively Rand is definitely crazy. If not mad in a tainted sense, then definitely emotionally imbalanced. with many unhealthy side-effect. (Self mutilation over dead girls for example.) LTT is wacko too, just not necessarily from the taint. The Taint came from the DO, and so did Ishy's healing of LTT's mind. Presumably the DO can alleviate the taint, he just has no reason to, other than this particular instance, or when making chosen. (In this case it is more of the DO filtering his own taint.) Anyway, LTT was mad and delusionaly ignorant or being Kinslayer in the EotW Prologue, and so Ishy happily remedied this. LTT, seeing his dead wife, and regaining those bad memories drove him over the brink and he suicide channeled: spawning Dragonmount. This being the reason, more than the taint, to say that LTT is wacko. Also I don't consider the LTT in Rand to be some dead guy from 3k years ago; rather LTT is that dead guy's identity. (Side note: The sealed soul theory is interesting, why did Rand have to be born on DM to be the DR? Was it purely symbolic, or was there more to it?)

Rand aT and LTT. One soul. Two personalities; I prefer the term identity though, over personality. Without a doubt there are two identities, whether split-personality, another mind, or w/e; there are two identities within Rand's head. Basis: there is something in Rand's head that thinks of itself as LT and another thing that thinks of itself as Rand al'Thor. Self awareness is enough to qualify it these 'things' (for lack of a better word) as identities. Two identities. If only for the purpose of WoT, I define identity as the self-aware sum of memories (experiences remembered). Those memories are, in WoT, attached to soul... Ex: Birgitte within T'A'R would be an almalgamant personality of all her previous lives' memories. In T'A'R she is her soul-incarnate/her iconic self. Now after coming into the physical world, Birgitte is having those memories fade away, as-per the normal order of things. In the Flesh memories of past lives are not remembered, either born in ignorance so a new identity can mature, or being in the Flesh one loses them: there is only so much information a physical brain can hold. I would predict Birgitte's personality (via character-growth//time in Flesh)) will eventually only retain the memories of the experiences she has had after the point of her ejection from T'A'R. Not to say that the knowledge will go away, as she has memories of remembering past life memories and the knowledge that goes with them.

Now for what ever reason, memories of two people are within Rand's head; Rand al'Thor and Lews Therin Telamon. These memories are not entirely shared, but rather being separate: they manifest in two distinct personalities; or identities. They share the same body, and thus use the same sensory organs and thus have mirrored experience, and perception. It goes further than this though, as a lot of their psyche and thoughts are mirrored. The identity is the sum of memory, and as more memories are shared, and more knowledge passes between the personalities, the lines between them blur. Min sees two becoming one; "I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and....one of you dies, and one doesn't." If all memories or even just the majority of them are shared; then the sum of these memories becomes a singular identity or personality. Each separate personality fades away into one; or one personality is mixed into the other one. Rand Therin, new guy. Lews Therin with Rand's memories, or Rand with Lews Therin memories. The final Identity could be any combination I would guess. The Rand identity could be considered to die, as 'To die is to live, and to live is to die.' "Rand, I like Alivia. But she is going to kill you." Rand replies, "Helping me die isn't the same as killing me. Unless you've changed your mind about what you saw." "How can I win the Last Battle and survive?" "The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. If you would live, you must die." "[T]he Dragon Reborn confront the Shadow at the Last Battle, and his blood shall give us the Light." "Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed. Once for mourning, once for birth. Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul. In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow."

Important to the perpetuation of Rand aT beyond TG. Or its irrelevant and the end of WoT is some christo resurrection trick. As WoT does borrow from various other mythos in many ways. But that is a whole other theory. The point is the voices; rather the voice of LTT is real, I think, and is its own valid identity. Why the memories behind the identity, or how they got into Rand's head...? So many explanations. Regardless both Rand and Lews Therin I believe must needs exist, and become/die in some way or form to fulfil the Prophecies and save the World. ((FYATUI: Alivia plays a huge part in it.))

Rand: I refer to the body as Rand.

Rand al'Thor: I refer to the Rand al'Thor's memories identity.

LTT: Is the Lew Therin's memories' identity.

Spirit: Beyond Main Reality. The intangible, incorporeal, soul, spiritual, etc; not the Element.

Flesh: Main Reality. Physical, corporeal, real world, the flesh and blood bodies of the real world.

Dragon Tamer: 2008-03-10

Ishy may have healed the taint from LTT, but he went crazy when he saw that he had killed all of his loved ones. That was the reason Ishy healed him, so that he could understand what he had done.

Hand of the Shadow: 2008-11-13

There is no better explanation for everything Rand experiences with regard to Lews Therin, other than him being real. Semirhage gave a perfectly believable explanation for it in KoD, she also revealed where she got her info from. Semirhages comments were too close to the truth to ignore; even a Forsaken can tell the truth if it serves the right purpose, and this purpose was to bring uncertainty to Rands followers.

According to Graendal via Semirhage, Rand has a rare type of madness that connects him to his past life. Rands soul is Lews Therins soul born again-the same soul means that there could easily be a remnant of Lews Therin in that soul, and from what Semirhage said its sounds reasonable to say that Rands type of madness brings out those remnants of Lews Therin, with the mind of the new incarnation-Rand-still dominant.

Now, the fact that Saidin is now clean means nothing with respect to the Rand-Lews Therin connection, because Rand did nothing to himself or any other channeler affected by the Taint, meaning any damage done by the taint or any other cause of madness is still there. This is backed up by Damer Flynn who notes that while he thought Rands wounds should begin to heal, they didnt, even after both sources of evil were eliminated. From this we get that any infections caused by the Taint or Shadar Logoth remain even though the source of such infections is gone, and this in turn leads us to understand why Padan Fain still has his powers gained from Mordeth even though Shadar Logoth is no more.

Now, Graendal, via Semirhage, said that sometimes the voices in a madmans head are real, which is obviously the case with Rand. However, going off timing Graendal couldnt possibly have come into contact with the Taint until after the beginning of EotW, because she was imprisoned at the same instant that the Taint came into existance. From this we can gather that Graendal encountered this rare type of madness in the Age of Legends and thus negate any belief that the "past-life connection" is only caused by the Taint.

Justin alSeen: 2008-12-19

I think Lews Therin is in his head because Semirhage in KoD mentions that even she couldnt heal a person who hears the voice of their past selfs from another age. and remember, Rand knows WAY too much of the age of legends for it to be madness. also why would Semirhage try to heal someone who hears their past selfs if there isnt any. remember she lived during the hight of the age of legends

deil: 2009-01-25

Rand is undoubtedly unhinged, if not outright mad. His outbursts, getting more frequent now, his temper all say that the pressure is becoming too much. He also has access to LTT's memories and skills by virtue of being the Dragon Reborn. However, I don't think it's enough to say that LTT is a separate personality by himself.

Despite what Semirhage may have said at the end of KoD, we must remember that anything one of the Forsaken says is suspect. Even one of the Forsaken chained thru an a'dam can still manage to wriggle her way out of the truth, as Moghedien proved.

I don't think the voice in his head is Lews Therin, I am not even convinced there is a voice no matter what Rand seems to hear. How does he know what the sound of LTT's voice is anyway?

Having access to LTT's memories, growing as he edges closer to his life purpose of fighting TG, is making him feel ... disjointed. Obviously they are a separate set of experiences. He can tell that they are different from his own. But due to the taint, and the pressure, accessing these memories and skills is not a simple matter for him. He is convinced that accessing these memories would allow them to dominate him. Make him LTT's reincarnation in mind and body as well as soul. So he conjures up a voice that makes side comments about what a particular situation looks like when looking thru LTT's experience. He imagines a voice that cries over Ilyena when he remembers the pain of having killed those close to him, as triggered when a woman dies. He feels LTT trying to reach out for saidin when part of LTT's memories is a certain manner of holding saidin instinctively, forming weaves and identifying enemies. He imagines the voice as insane, when LTT so obviously died sane.

Note that this is different from the way Mat accesses memories from another lifetime. Mat simply remembers having talked to Artur Hawkwing himself. As well as remembering Artur Hawkwing being insufferable even before he became high king. Rand, however, for some reason has a different way of coping with another man's memories. He imagines that man as speaking to him.

magirl: 2010-07-12

yes. lews therin IS there.

the sound of the voice ISN'T insane.... it's in pain. when lews therin was healed, he was healed because it was known that the pain of knowing what he did would be too great for him to handle. that is why lew therin is wailing. his pain is so much, that he longs to kill himself, to end it, but he has no choice but to continue living.

they AREN'T two seperate souls. but rand refuses to accept that, so his soul is temperarily split.

you're right that it isn't the taint...

err... Mat has memories... and plus, Rand is extremely POWERFUL ta'veren. Remember, Mat started spouting old tongue long before he met the 'foxes'.