1
Tamyrlin: 2002-11-24
It is true that I have never truly considered the idea that Demandred wasn't close enough to recognize Flinn or the Aes Sedai. While I do admit that this is a possibility, I always think about the fact that Jordan wrote that line. Jordan knew that Demandred was looking at Aes Sedai and Flinn...and he makes it appear that Demandred shouldn't know them, almost coyly trying to give us another piece of information without coming right out and saying it. He did this throughout WH. He resolved the Cyndane/Lanfear question, he made it obvious who Semirhage was, and this appeared to be an obvious "Taim isn't Demandred" section. But Jordan is inconsistent or ambiguous at times...so, I can understand why this part is not definitive.
But, something to consider, the quote you used about Demandred giving directions that Taim had already given can also be used to support the idea that they are two different people. Jordan could still be playing with us, or he was just trying to give us hints that the Taim Demandred debate is over. :) I am confident that question will be answered definitively in this next book.
2
Callandor: 2002-12-13
I am in between deciding on who Taim is. I lean one way then go back. One thing that drives me away from believing that hes Taim is that he didnt recognize Flinn. Now his vision was distracted in the woods but even if he was 100 feet or more away he was for sure full of saidin and could pick out the lines around their eyes. And also Taim would forget Flinn??? THATS CRAZY! Flinn was the first man tested, I dont know about you but i remember almost anything that Ive done the first time in pristine detail. You would think that he would at least know Flinns face. Also Flinn was by Rand a lot. Anybody can tell you that Taim likes acting like Rand a bit too much (from the way he acts to people to the dragons on his coat arms). So dont you think he might know most the people around Rand whenever he could? Especially an Ashaman.
3
Callandor: 2002-12-23
As to your theory Tamyrlin, ever thought of it as like a magician? Ok.... We had Semirhage being made obvious who she was, he cleared up Cyndane/Lanfear easily, and then Taim as Demandred. But what if this was over doing it? Cyndane is closed for good no question. Semirhage is almost for sure Anath. But Taim not being Demandred has the most question to it, even though its almnost a case closed thing again. So what if RJ just made that so people would think he is not Taim? Because if Demandred ordered Rand killed as himself and then as Taim wouldnt that be REALLY secure and confusing? Demandred is said to use proxies, well isnt that a pretty big one?
Any thoughts?
4
silverwolf: 2002-12-28
I think Demandred has to be Taim. In addition to the arguments everyone gives, Demandred is supposed to be watching him (See the meeting between the forsaken in WH; Graendal's outburst) Taim is the most logical person close enough to watch Rand whom we know to be evil.
When Taim first appears and gives the seal to Rand, he seems very distubed when Rand appears ready to break the seal. Most people took that to mean that he was not a darkfriend, but we have evidence in WH that he is. The only way this would still make sense is if Taim/Demandred was worried that Rand had switched to the Shadow and been raised above him (i.e.: Naeblis)
The last reason for Demandred being Taim: Who else would he be? We haven't had any other substantial suggestions as to his identity, and we have no other clues as to where he is.
5
Therilon: 2003-01-08
Silverwolf, first, Demandred could just be hiding, or playing sha'rah in his palace. Remember, almost no one in Randland knows his face, so he could be walking about without the Mirror of Mists.
As many have said before, Demandred in WH didn't recognize the face of the first Ashaman, Flinn. Taim could be a darkfriend, but, remember that Bashere knows who Taim is. I think that they would recognize an imposter. It would be dangerous to use a mirror of mists by Rand, especially by a False Dragon.
6
WinespringBrother: 2003-01-08
For what it's worth, RJ confirmed that Taim is not Demandred, at a signing :)
"That's bogus" he said in responding to a question whether Taim and Demandred are one and the same.
7
Callandor: 2003-01-08
Taim in my mind is a big Darkfriend. The way I think of it is that Taim was taught by Ishamael (because he was the first Forsaken out of the Bore by FAR), and he was supposed to be set up as a false Dragon so that the Forsaken could find out who the real DR was easily (although this could have some problems with Ishamael already knowing in TEOTW but im just going with it as their original idea). Then when he got captured and then later freed Ishamael was dead and not reborn/remake as Moridin yet. So he went under the thumb of Demandred.
With both the Forsaken training him, each at different times of course but still training him, he would learn lots of things and this would give way to certain **slips** that he has had in past books.
If you dont know what I mean by **slips** ill give you some examples.
When Rand first takes Taim to the **Farm** in LOC and shows him the way to make gateways, he calls it a **gateway**. A little further along Taim replies **You can Travel, but you dont know how to test for the Talent?** Now hold on there. Rand NEVER EVER said Traveling in that chapter, he always says gateways. Yet Taim says Travel.
Now there are 2 real explanations for this. 1. Taim heard about the lost Talent of Travelling from an Aes Sedai. But this has a problem because even the Aes Sedai dont know what Travelling inpies (making the shinning hold in the air and so forth). And 2. He learned it and the proper name for it from his Forsaken teachers (this could also explain why he picks it up so quickly, but I think that learning might have to do more with strength).
Another slip is when he calls the Aiel **so-called**. In LOC, chapter 11, Lessons and Teachers, page 215, Taim remarks in this exact fashion. Now the ONLY other person that Im aware of is Moridin in ACOS, Chapter 20, Patterns Within Patterns, page 356. He even uses the EXACT same wording. Only someone from the AoL would call the modern day Aiel **so-called**, no one else in the main continent calls the Aiel **so-called**. Now Moirdin was Ishamael and Ishamael, under this theory, taught Taim so it could easily be that Taim is trying to emulate his teacher, even unconsciously.
So majorly in my mind Taim is just a minon of Demandred and Ishamael, who was taught by both.
8
pointyman: 2003-01-09
I am going to go and start a new theory.... Taim-isha-idin.
9
Waalex: 2003-02-07
In the world of the wheel of time, It says Demandred would have been the greatest man of the age if not for LTT. He was always second. This is from Lord of Chaos P.780 Chapter 42 The Black Tower:
"I suppose I was the FIRST Asha'man", Rand told the students, "but Mazrim Taim is the second". Taims face made stone look soft.
Seems to me like (maybe) Demandred doesn't like being second again to LTT Reborn?
10
Callandor: 2003-02-07
RJ said that Taim ISNT Demandred. Im saying that Taim was TRAINED first by Ishamael and then by Demandred. I am NOT saying that Taim is Demandred.
11
melchizedek: 2003-04-26
NO. Samael is Mazrim Taim, still #2 and hating every minute of it. He faked his death to mislead Rand AND the other Forsaken when Rand would not make a deal with him (in truth, HE is the main Chosen in the Lord of Chaos). Shadar Haran no doubt knows, but I doubt even Lord Moridin (the Naeblis) is aware of this little double cross. The Great Lord often keeps the secrets of the Chosen for himself, from the likes of us.
As for Lord Demandred, he could be Masema, or Bashere, or Rhurac, or someone totally offstage the entire time. However, the other Chosen seem to think he helped Rand at Dumai Wells... And wouldn't it be funny Lord Weiramon (a darkfriend) turned out to be Demandred this whole time?
12
Callandor: 2003-04-27
Three words: Sammael is DEAD! RJ said so.
13
free will: 2004-01-07
Flinn was the first man tested, I dont know about you but i remember almost anything that Ive done the first time in pristine detail.
That was neither the first time Taim tested a man (by his claims), and it isn't a stretch to imagine that Demandred tested a man in the AoL (in fact that is where he learned to do this).
that Bashere knows who Taim is
When Bashere first met Taimandred (the bearded version of Taim), he didnot recognize Taimandred.
"That's bogus" [RJ] said in responding to a question whether Taim and Demandred are one and the same.
The Taimandred theory is not "Taim and Demandred are one and the same". The theory is that first there was a person called Demandred, and then 3000 years later there was a different person called Taim (beardless). So they are not the same. Then Demandred disposed of Taim (or maybe not, see below) and became the bearded Taim (Taimandred), which met Bashere and Bashere didn't recognize him. Taimandred usurped Taim's identity. The slip of calling Aiel "so-called", is beyond my believability unless he was a forsaken, so Demandred is parading as Taim at least some of the time. The ultimate proxy is to find someone who looks almost like you. Taimandred is almost as powerful as Rand/LTT, but Taim himself may or may not be/have been so strong.
So to explain it better, Taim MAY be alive or dead, but at least sometimes Demandred is actually walking around pretending to be Taimandred. If Taim is alive then there are three identities, Taim (acting like Taim), Taimandred (Demandred acting like Taim), and Demandred (acting as himself in front of the other Forsaken). If Taim is dead then there are only two identities, Taimandred and Demandred.
The essential of Taimandred is that the slips are made by Demandred acting as Taim. Remember how Sammael made his messanger speak with his own voice? I'm sure Demandred can alter himself (permanently) to adopt some of Taim's speech and looks, enough to pass at least.
14
Unicorn: 2004-01-15
Execpt Rj just answered a question "on that homepage, with the question of the week" if Demandred ever posed as Taim, he didn't according to RJ. BUT this is followed by some mumblings about a straight answer being the most devious af all, as all students of aes sedai will tell you. In other words the truth an aes sedai tells you is not the truth you think you hear. This does however disprove any idea that Demandred took over for some poor ignorant called Taim. Either he has been taim all along, thus not posing but being taim(just like moiraine "being known as" Alys or Verin as Eadwina, no lying no "posing"). or else Taim is being himself(in which case he is as unsympathetic as any forsaken). Personally I believe Demandred invented Taim as his cover. But being an arrogant SOB, he underestimated the AS of today and got himself caught, was released with the help of BA most probably Galina.
15
Callandor: 2004-01-15
Dem never posed as Taim, so if Dem "created" Taim from out of his #$@, he would still be posing as Taim. So, no, Taim is Taim, whether good or evil (odds are evil).
16
Anubis: 2004-01-16
i bet taim is one of demandreds proxies. i dont know if taim is aware of this, but i dont think it really matters. i bet dem controlls taim one way or another
17
Khaos: 2004-02-03
Concerning the question on the TOR website there is definite wriggle room. Technically if there never was a Taim, Demandred would not be posing as him. Had the question been can you confirm that the man known to Rand as Mazrim Taim is not and has never been Demandred, and the answer was yes then there would be no question.
But you have the whole posing issue and the comment about a straight answer often being the most devious. Of course the whole purpose of that comment is just as likely to be RJ keeping the debating and guessing going even though he straight out answered the question as to indicating that you should reach the opposite conclusion that Demandred is Taim.
18
OKflyboy: 2004-02-03
NO! Don't do this to me! I was crushed when RJ answered that question of the week, but I'm coping. Now here come the theories about how RJ was Aes Sedai-ing around the question! Please, don't give me false hope... :)
19
Illuminati: 2004-02-04
I really do not like Taim being just a proxy to Demandred theories. If that is the case I'm really questioning wether Demandred is less a madman than Ishamael, here's why.
Demandred is described as only second to Lews Therin in AOL. Ishamael do not count here, although strong I've allways seen his power to be more into TP and not OP.
Taim is introduced as just a little weaker than Rand. This puts Taim on Demandred-strength in my book since I regard Rand as atleast as strong as Lews Therin if not stronger.
Now, would you put up someone as strong as yourself to lead the worlds most powerful organisation as forsaken? Even if his loyality seems unquestionable at the time? Being a great stratege and tactician as Demandred is this is a very strange move for him. You want people less powerfull than you abow you in the chain so you can controll them.
So, if Taim was put up by a forsaken it would seem that forsaken has greatly underestimated Taims capabilities, and for Demandred to make such a mistake I don't see happening. Maybe Ishamael though. Taim also seem to be taking a whole lot of own initiatives for someone being controlled by someone else.
I'm waiting eagerly for RJ to explain the Taim deal. All his slips and all the hints at the start towards Demandred needs to be explained better or I will be thinking that RJ intended Taim to be Demandred at start and just changed his mind later to throw us off guard.
20
Cha Faile: 2004-02-12
when i read RJ's answer to his question about Taim and Demandred i was confused. i think that he said someting like this:
"Demandred has never posed as Taim"
then he said that it was a simple answer but sometimes the most simple answers are the most devious...am i correct?this implies that the answer is not quite what we think it is...
i think that Taim has always been Demandred and Demandred didn't pose as him becaus he was him all the time...and you can't pose as someone who didn't exist until you invented them...maybe i'm reading way too far into this...i'm not explaining this very well.
problem with this theory...Taim isn't strong enough...i have no idea how i could get around that- he might just hold back when he's around Rand.i''m new to the books so i may have missed alot.i just wanted poeple's ideas about RJ answer becasue i thought it was quite strange.
21
OKflyboy: 2004-02-12
Remember though, that LTT was the strongest male channeler ever, and Taim is described as being almost as strong as Rand. If LTT was the stongest, and Demandred the second, then if the Taimandred theory is to be kept alive it would make sense that Taim is almost, but not quite as strong as Rand...
22
Davian93: 2004-02-12
Taim is strong enough to be Demandred. They're both a little weaker than Rand/LTT so they're both probably about equal. It would be interesting if it turned out to be Taimedred despite RJ's denial. It makes the most sense of anything, but then the series needs a hard turn or plot jump at this point. Somebody close to rand is gonna turn out to be a DF and that's not including Taim.
23
Grady: 2004-02-13
I thought about Taim being almost as strong as Rand and Demandred being close to LT too, but in the WOT faq under the part about the Taimandred question there is a quote from RJ stating that the person Dem is posing as hasn't appeared in the series yet, so I think we should just put the Taim/Dem theory to bed...
24
Blademaster: 2004-03-14
I believe that Taim has been Demandred from the beginning, thus satisfying the "Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim", and furthermore, to give my answer as to how he could possibly have been captured by Aes Sedai, remember that at that point, he was posing as the Dragon Reborn, and Rand suddenly proclaimed himself. At this point, Moiraine says that the other false dragons were captured because the pattern had no room for them. No matter how powerful Demandred is, he cannot fight the immense power of the pattern, so he is forced to stop pretending to be the dragon. Notice how that after he stops proclaiming himself as the Dragon, he somehow gets free of the Aes Sedai, makes his way to Rand, and creates his own coterie of male channelers loyal only to him. This sounds like the sort of thing that a Forsaken would do, especially one as powerful and cunning as Demandred.
On another note, remember that as soon as Rand meets Taim, and EVERY TIME AFTERWARDS, Lews Therin's voice tells Rand to kill Taim IMMEDIATELY. This urging is more strident than with other Asha'man. This makes me think that Lews Therin has reason to distrust Taim for more than just the fact that he is a male channeler; ie. the fact that he somehow realizes that Taim is actually Demandred.
25
Great Lord of the Dark: 2004-03-14
I frequently see the quote about Demandred and proxies being thrown about. There is one other quote about Demandred's behaviour that needs to be addressed: He is a gambler. The other Chosen reflect that Demandred's plan is a huge gamble, it could give them everything, or cost them everything.
Now I'd like somone to explain what that great gamble could be, other than Demandred entering the Dragon's den as Taim. Pretending to be Taim qualifies as the most major gamble possible, can you offer another explanation for what the gamble is?
26
Anubis: 2004-03-14
well blademaster i think your wrong. and robert jordan does too.
and since hes writin these little stories i would hope he knows whats goin on.
27
Callandor: 2004-03-14
**I believe that Taim has been Demandred from the beginning, thus satisfying the "Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim",**
To define:
pose
v. posed, pos·ing, pos·es
v. intr.
1. To assume or hold a particular position or posture, as in sitting for a portrait.
2. To affect a particular mental attitude.
3. To represent oneself falsely; pretend to be other than what one is.
If Demandred EVER said that he was Taim, he would be posing as Taim. Hence, Demandred was never, ever, Taim.
28
Khaos: 2004-03-15
I was also very dubious about the pose question initially. But I then read another interview somwwhere can't remember which where RJ does state that we have yet to see the 'public' face of Demadred within the books meaning he isn't Taim. That whole Aes sedai comment was just to mess with our heads.
29
Aelfinn: 2004-03-15
Everyone, see Eclipse's "D'Coy" theory. WYAI (while you're at it), look at the "Mat Pawn" one as well. I believe them both.
30
free will: 2004-07-13
”If Demandred EVER said that he was Taim, he would be posing as Taim. Hence, Demandred was never, ever, Taim.”
I disagree
pose
3. To represent oneself falsely; pretend to be other than what one is.
If no POV character actually met Taim before Demandred was freed, and Demandred walks up and says “Call me Taim”, then he really<.b> would be the original Taim, and hence not a poser.
As has been stated before, if the questioner had asked the question better, then there would be no confusion. If the question was, was the character known as Taim born in the Age of Legends and trapped near the bore for nigh on 3000 years, then a yes or no would clearly mark him as a Forsaken. But it relied on the word posing which depends on falsehood, which depends on whether there a "real" third Age Taim other than Demandred that Demandred is pretending to be.
31
CJH68: 2004-10-09
Blademaster points out LTT's mad rantings of 'Kill Him' every time Taim appears. This is true, but LTT has the same reaction with every Asha'man as well.
There was, however, one LTT comment that really got my attention - and confirmed my suspicions that Taim is Demandred.
This is in LOC, Ch 42 when Rand first takes Min to 'The Farm':
***"I should have killed him long ago:, Lews Therin panted. "I should have... should have..."***
and later in the same chapter:
***"I will kill him, and then them. They must serve him. It is plain, they must serve him"
...
"Oh light. I killed them all. All that I loved. If I can kill him, it will be well though. I can make it up, if I kill him finally. No, nothing can make up, but I must kill him anyway. Kill them all, I must, I must"***
Kill him long ago? Kill him finally? I can make it up?
Kill him long ago would imply from a previous age rather than the relatively recent time that Rand first met Taim.
Kill him finally implies that LTT has tried to kill him before but has failed.
Merely killing Taim - who at worst is a darkfriend - would not come close to enabling LTT to ease his soul over being the Kinslayer. Which makes me think that Taim is far greater than a darkfriend.
He would have to be a very big fish if LTT can even contemplate this as compensation.
32
Stilicho: 2004-10-11
CJH68: Demandred ain't Taim. Sorry, but RJ himself has pretty much debunked that theory. However, I ask you to consider this: Could Ishy/Moridin be Taim? It seems to fit with the points you made here even more than Demandred.
33
Callandor: 2004-10-12
**Could Ishy/Moridin be Taim? It seems to fit with the points you made here even more than Demandred.**
1. Taim has been made mention of since TGH (TEoTW most likely, though he is sadly not named). Although Ishamael has been around since then and before, he died in TGH, and was not seen back until ACOS.
Anyone proving that he is in fact back before that, is in for one hell of a test.
2. Ishamael does not opperate in that fashion. He does not take up residence in one location like the other Forsaken; he is all over the place!
3. If Taim was Ishamael, why does he show surprise when Rand tells him Dashiva was in on the attack in TPOD? Dashiva being Osan'gar, and the other four Asha'man recieving orders from Taim to kill Rand, odds are Dashiva would've gotten an order too. Yet, Taim is ~surprised~ by this, and angry to boot! Why, why, why, if Taim is Ishamael?
People have pointed out that maybe Osan'gar went around Ishamael to further his own goals (after all that is what Forsaken do). No, sorry, not this time. Osan'gar is utterly terrified of Ishamael, and has been the entire time; no way in heck he would go against his orders.
34
Cor Shan: 2004-10-13
Callandor, taim is surprised because he didn't think that Rand knew that Dashiva was trying to kill Rand. Not surprise at Dashiva, at Rands knowledge.
35
Sampson: 2004-10-13
I think RJ needs to hurry up and get Knife Of Dreams completed and published. Everybody has too much time on their hands. They are jonesing for a wheel of time fix, jumping at shadows and seeing a conspricy in everything.
Taim is Taim! Or I can put it this way Taim = Taim or Taim is Taim. Also this would be the time where I would need to say that Demandred is Demandred. I do not know where he is and whom he is presenting to the outside world so he can pull strings, but he is not Taim.
As a matter of fact, the more I read these theories the more I am starting to believe that Taim didn't turn to the Shadow until after Dumai Wells.
Taim's personality and ego is the key. First Demandred WOULD NOT put Dragons on his sleeves or his collar. He hates Lews Therin period. Taim wants power, glory and HIS name to be remembered. This should be proof enough to put these theories to rest. Taim could be turned because he is jealous of RAND not LTT. I think all the male forsaken were turned to the Shadow because they were jealous of Lews Therin with the exception of Asmodean (music) Ishamael (Crazy and just because. {I still think he drilled the bore with Lanfear as Beidomon}), & Aginor (Science and experimenting). So Sammy, Demandred & Bethamel thought they were better than LTT.....wait a second....stop...take a breath....just like Taim!
So no Taim is not Demandred. Taim is somebody who wants more and feels that he is more worthy than Rand. So he is just another guy that has been recruited to the Shadow. It is just another bonus that he can channel and has access to recruit more resources to the dark side.
36
Stilicho: 2004-10-13
I'm sooo glad that callandor is omniscient! Why, the rest of us won't even have to read the remaining books! Callandor knows everything the Forsaken are thinking. End the suspense, callandor, just write the remaining books yourself since even RJ might make a mistake. Seriously, your logic is circular and you're simply married to the idea that Taim has to be independent BECAUSE YOU THINK HE IS. While you have raised some doubts about Ishy POSING as Taim, that's exactly what they are...DOUBTS. No more, no less. As for the idea that Ishy could have been behind Taim all along, pulling the strings...you simply refuse to deal with the concept in any meaningful way BECAUSE YOU DON'T BELIEVE IT SO IT CAN'T BE TRUE! If you don't want to dicuss a particular theory, then leave it alone. Don't waste everyone's time by PRETENDING to discuss theories by attempting to stop discussions that may prove adverse to your pet views.
37
Callandor: 2004-10-13
**Seriously, your logic is circular and you're simply married to the idea that Taim has to be independent BECAUSE YOU THINK HE IS.**
Uhh... no. I think Taim is a Darkfriend/Dreadlord.
**While you have raised some doubts about Ishy POSING as Taim, that's exactly what they are...DOUBTS**
Please, do your best to explain them away, besides trying to attack me about them.
** As for the idea that Ishy could have been behind Taim all along, pulling the strings...you simply refuse to deal with the concept in any meaningful way BECAUSE YOU DON'T BELIEVE IT SO IT CAN'T BE TRUE!**
No, regardless of what you might think, I do take anything to be possible in this world. Then, I look at evidence for support, or denouncement. My views are not just my opinions, unless there are no incidents to back them up (like Perrin finding the song; very little evidence, mostly just a feeling). This is no the case, so don't try to make it into one.
**If you don't want to dicuss a particular theory, then leave it alone.**
Who says I didn't? If I didn't ~hits head~ I wouldn't be replying now would I?
**Don't waste everyone's time by PRETENDING to discuss theories by attempting to stop discussions that may prove adverse to your pet views.**
And so ends the lecture in a useless post.
Please, humor me:
1. When do you think Ishamael returned as Moridin?
2. When do you think Taim stopped being Taim?
3. Explain the Dashiva incident.
If you're simply going to try to lecture me on my replies, give it up and move on, after taking your own advice.
38
Stilicho: 2004-10-14
Nice attempt at dodging the question Callandor. So, sorry, you still have not proven your point. And THAT is the point. You present your OPINIONS regarding Taim as proven. They are not. You HAVE provided evidence, but none of it is conclusive and that's the idea you apparently cannot accept. You may be proven right in the end, but that doesn't mean you have conclusive evidence at this point. As for Dashiva: for the last time ALL the FS have their own agendas; fear of Ishy never changed that.
39
SDog: 2004-10-14
Stilcho, I think you're either severly overreacting, or you have some other agenda. Callandor presented well reasoned points with evidence, and you attack him after one post? You accuse him of arguing opinions as fact, but did you not just fly off the handle at a counter opinion?
If you can't debate these things somewhat civilly, you ought to consider not doing it. Better yet, head over to the message board and read some of what Callandor has written. While you're there, check out how we debate around here. You could learn some things.
40
Callandor: 2004-10-14
**Nice attempt at dodging the question Callandor.**
?
O....k....
Let's see, I posted evidence stating why Taim being Ishamael is impossible.
Then, you posted your objections, and I simply said, read my evidence again.
Then you replied saying that I am listing opinions (false), and not addressing the issue (false), and then, THEN, you try to lecture me on the way to reply to a post.
I replied in a very simple matter and asked 3 very, VERY, simple questions:
1. When do you think Ishamael returned as Moridin?
2. When do you think Taim stopped being Taim?
3. Explain the Dashiva incident.
Then you reply again, and once again, do not answer the questions or even acknowledge them.
But, I'm dodging the question....
**As for Dashiva: for the last time ALL the FS have their own agendas; fear of Ishy never changed that.**
1. Of course the Forsaken have their own plans; however, they do not since the annoiting of Moridin. They may conspire to kill him, but their actions follow his plans.
2. It's Dashiva/Osan'gar/Aginor that makes this an impossible thing to happen.
**TITLE: Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 35 - With the Choedan Kal
Crouching again, he bit his lip. This forest was a very dangerous place, more so than he had expected, and nowhere for a genius. *~But the fact remained that Moridin terrified him. The man had always terrified him, from the very beginning.~* He had been mad with power before they were sealed into the Bore, and since they had been freed, he seemed to think that he was the Great Lord. ~*Moridin would find out somehow if he fled, and kill him.*~ Worse, if al'Thor succeeded, the Great Lord might decide to kill both of them, and Osan'gar as well. He did not care whether they died, ~but he did very much about himself.~**
2a. Dashiva/Osan'gar/Aginor, is utterly terrorfied of Moridin/Ishamael.
2b. He fears that Moridin/Ishamael will kill him.
2c. Dashiva/Osan'gar/Aginor very much loves to stay alive.
So, why would he go against Ishamael's orders, if Ishamael were Taim, and he shows surprise, then anger, at the fact that Dashiva acted in the attack on Rand? Why? Why? Why?
You're reason: Dashiva/Osan'gar/Aginor had his own agenda, contrary to Moridin/Ishamael's.
And you still have two more questions, more difficult to explain then this one.
41
dieegwene: 2005-01-04
I believe an appropriate response would be DUH. Reading Lord of Chaos, Demandred and Taim are both, I think, Saldaean. That they look alike should be proof enough. As well, Taim must be a Forsaken, considering after 15 years the taint still hasn't driven him mad. Finally, the very last bit of LoC depicts Demandred kneeling before the Dark One in Shayol Ghul, asking "haven't I done well". (Check quote on that, I don't have the book with me) In that particular part of the story, the only triumph was the slaughter at Dumai's Wells, and Taim very much assisted in the victory. I can't think of anything else Demandred might have succeeded in. That makes me think Dumai's Wells was supposed to be a victory for Rand, according to the Dark One, as well, but that's another story. I think it's been made pretty obvious that the Dark One wants the Dragon Reborn to live for the moment.
42
Callandor: 2005-01-04
**Reading Lord of Chaos, Demandred and Taim are both, I think, Saldaean.**
Why would Demandred be refered to in physical description, to a place that did not exist in his time period? Taim is Saldaean; of Demandred we have only physical descriptions, no country naming.
**That they look alike should be proof enough.**
Proof enough? Not quite; it's an interesting tidbit, but not conclusive. Semirhage looks exactly like Anath, but people still refute that theory all together, with even more evidence then the Taim is Demandred theory ever had.
**As well, Taim must be a Forsaken, considering after 15 years the taint still hasn't driven him mad.**
No, he is not ~required~ to be a Forsaken. The only remaining Forsaken are the 13 that survived in the Bore; Taim can, however, be a very high ranking Darkfriend/Dreadlord and has gotten the Black Cords to allow him to channel safely without going insane.
But you're point is still true, if skewed; Taim being simply Taim (just a plain 3rd Age guy who was born with the spark) does not make a lick of sense.
43
Taim is not Demandred: 2005-06-17
It is possible that the BA's plan to capture taim worked. This was explained in the beginning pf TSR, in the stone of tear. The black ajah certainly had the ability to gather thirteen myrdraal and a couple more channelers. Once forcefully turned to the shadow the DO could do whatever he wants with him.
44
Traveller: 2005-09-24
The thing that makes me think that perhaps Taiom is not Demandred is that when Sammael is meeting wwith Graendal (from Sammael's PoV)S gets wound up and tells Graendal:
"You deliver a message to Demandred from me. Tell him i know what he's up to." Events to the South had Demandred's mark all over them. Demandred had always liked using proxies. "Tell him to be careful. I won't have him or his friends interfering in my plans." Perhaps he could direct al'Thor's attention there; that would likely put an end to him. If other means did not work. "So long as they steer clear of me, his lackeys can carve out whatever he wants, but they will steer clear of me or he will answer for it."
Graendal's abode is made clear to be in Arad Doman by both her and Sammael, and Taim is at that point on the farm up in the borderlands.
Although I have never favoured this theory, the quote makes most sense for Demandred to be Masema, coz Ghealdan is south from Arad Doman and the Dragonsworn could be his "lackeys".
The reason I do not think Sammael is lying to put off Graendal is because the text is from his PoV and he is just angry and does not think about confusing her as he does at points when he is trying to mislead Graendal.
However, I do think that it is possible he might be mistaken.
Well, what do all of you make of that?
45
Anubis: 2005-09-25
Demandred cant be Masmea. RJ has said that we have not seen Demandreds alter ego, therefore noone we have seen is dem.
46
JakOShadows: 2005-09-25
It is possible. And it makes more sense than Taim being Demandred. The only thing that confuses me is that Perrin can smell feelings, and Masema smells crazy. I don't think Demy could fake that. Even though he doesn't know about it. But the direction is correct. It is more likely he "convinced" Masema to do it.
