juitzhead: 2003-03-30

Does it mention anywhere HOW the memories Mat receives were originally obtained by the Finns? we know the price they demand for the answers they give are to rummage through your memories. Does this mean that all the memories that Mat obtained are from soldiers who have been to see the Finn? This is just a question to something I might have missed.

solomonrex: 2003-03-31

Yes, RJ said that the memories that Mat has from the 'finn are from soldiers, adventurers, etc. that visited the 'finn previously. There is a lot of battle info because the people who typically visit the 'finn are risk-takers and gamblers.

One other possibility I haven't heard (about Tuon's Hawkwing reference) is that if she was at Falme, she might have seen them both- Mat and Hawkwing. Do we have any solid evidence placing her there or not?

Dorindha: 2003-03-31

I hadn't wondered about that point before juitzhead, but we know that one of the doorways (but not the one that actually filled in his memories) was owned by the Firsts of Mayene before it came to be in the Stone of Tear. As the Firsts are possibly decendents of Hawkwing (Pendrag; Hawk symbol) maybe the doorway was originally in Hawkwing's court and was used by visitors to the court. Mat's memories do seem to be of commanders etc rather than ordinary soldiers who would not have been allowed to use a King's ter'angreal. I don't remember the end date Mat puts on his memories but it might fit with when this potential stream of people halted (maybe at Hawkwing's death?).

I know there are plenty of holes in this idea, but it's just an idea for where the memories came from - I've not seem any other suggestions anywhere, despite plenty of people saying that's what the finn did.

TheNetweaver: 2003-03-31

Everyone seems to forget that not all of Mat's memories came from the Finns. In TDR, in one of the first chapters after he's healed by the Aes Sedai, he has one of his longest flashbacks of the series. It goes on about how he's leading Manetheren against a massive company of trollocs. This is long before any memories from the Finns, and it has to have something to do with where his flashback actually originate from. These initial memories must come from the Old Blood, possibly with something to do involving ta'veren since its so strong. The Finns supplemented this with new memories from a wide, wide variety of men. I suspect that the memories the Finns gave him are related to being Old Blood, but I really have no evidence and any clear idea if it's true or not. I don't think anyone seems to at this point.

Cambo: 2003-04-01

I think it is extremely likely that the Finn gave Matt some of his "memories" from those stolen from other visitors. However it seems to me that they also must have another source.

"He hated to remember dying."

It seems pretty clear that Mat remembers dying quite a few times. Unless a dead man can walk through the doorway to the Finns I just don't see where they could have got these memories from.

WinespringBrother: 2003-04-01

It's possible that the people that went through the doorway to the Finns requested and got granted a vision of their futures (which should be well within the power of the Finns). So these "future" memories could become part of the memory database the Finns had available when giving new memories to Mat.

Callandor: 2003-04-01

How do the Finns know he will marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons? How did they know he would die and live again as part of what was?

The Finns most likely can read part of the pattern in advance or some trick close to Mins Viewings, otherwise their answers could easily be wrong while the answers are in fact always right. Only Foretellings and Mins Viewings are always right (dreaming is a half half thing when they can either be right or not but they mostly are right).

The Finn love memories, they seem to feed off of them, and how could they get more memories then what are already in someones head? By reading their future and extracting from those memories.

That is how they could easily see men dying at the hands of Hawkwing, getting run donw by Trollocs, tripping over a dang rock and breaking their neck for all we know.

The Finn could have just grabbed memories randomly and just shoved em into Mats head, which seems to be what RJ implies that they are just a bunch of whoopla on battles and such but not really **memories** and yet they are.

As for what Mat was saying when he was Healed, yes, that is the Old Blood coming from Mat in a strong form. Everybody from the Two Rivers seems to have it. Egwene seems to understand a few words when Mat yells at the Aes Sedai when they Heal Mat, the Two Rivers people have a vauge recoglition from defending against the Trollocs and remark that they have done it before.

The Old Blood runs rampant through the Two Rivers. Mat just had a very strong case of it for a while and now his Old Blood seems to have been taken over or at least attached to his memories from the Finn.

Weird Harold: 2003-04-01

Just a thought about the *finns:

Perhaps the limitation on one trip through each doorway is because the *Finns read the person's entire thread when they visit and don't want duplicates?

If they read a person's entire thread when they visit, they would have the past present and future memories and emotions of that person and reading them again from a second visit wouldn't gain them anything.

Jacqlyn: 2003-04-02

This is interesting. The last theory posted states that maybe the Finn can read the whole thread of a person.

I would like to add that when there was more than one Ta'averen in the Finn/Foxes world, it was too much. This might be because the threads of Ta'averen are so much stronger and have more "info" than just a regular Joe. Their "machine" that processes all those threads might have been over working itself and therefore was almost destroyed. I wonder if that is possible and what would happen if that is possible.

WinespringBrother: 2003-04-02

That brings up an interesting possibility. Since Mat died and was reborn (in a sense) does he have the same exact thread as he did when he originally went through the Aelfinn doorway? Maybe he can go through again...

Tarianna: 2003-04-02

I think we are forgetting one thing. Wasn't Artur Hawkwing seen at Falme, when MAT blew the Horn of Valere? He can't be in two places at once- unless RJ has added yet another kink in this garden hose.

heronblade: 2003-06-04

wouldn't it make more sense if matt was manatheren reincarnated cause of his memories at the begining, right after being healed? this would make him high blood wouldnt it? normally all the royal families were related, cousins. i was thinking perrin might be jan farstrider

rubbernilly: 2003-06-05

There is some possibility that Mat might be Aemon reborn (Aemon from Moiraine's story... the 'Aemon' that got linguistically shifted to 'Emond' of 'Emond's Field'), from Manetheren. This would have nothing to do with his memories, so those of you thinking that Mat memories just of his ancestors don't go touting out that scene where he is on the opposite side of the battle from Aemon. I'm just saying that regardless of his memories, he could be Aemon reborn.

Perrin, however, cannot be Jain Fairstrider. Jain is still alive, and is Noal Charin, traveling with Mat. The similarities leave no doubt:

Jain Fairstrider's real name is Jain Charin

Both have knowledge of wide travels

DF's laugh at what the Shadow did to Jain; Noal can't seem to remember everything too clearly because of something that was done to him

Both borderlanders

Both good fighters

There are other similarities. Look up a good Noal=Jain theory to get them all.

Duke of Windsor: 2003-06-15

I think everyone can pretty much assume you are wrong...I mean there are plently of mat's memories that show him riding agaisnt Hawking. And another thing Hawking is bound to the wheel. You didnt proving anything by saying "Hawking's persona could live outside Mat's soul as LTT's personality is separate from Rands" because first of all those are two totaly diffrent cases. Rand is the Dragon Reborn, certain things wont apply to him. Has anyone ever spoken to Mat in his head? No, this only happens to Rand. Because why? He's the Dragon Reborn exactly. And secondly I think its pretty clear that Mat is some important genral form Mantheren...Or the King

Rand-althor: 2003-06-16

If both Hawkwing and LTT "live outside" their reincarnation's souls, then why was LTT not runing through Falme channeling the brains out of all the Seanchan?

Tinlizard: 2003-07-12

I don't belive he's tied to the horn. Show me anywhere where it says LTT is one of the Heroes.

Lewin: 2003-07-13

As Mat being Hawkwing reborn I think definitely not since Mat met Hawkwing when he sounded the Horn and i don't think that would have been possible if Hawkwing was Reborn. Also as for LTT being a Hero of the Horn i dont thinks so either, Dont have the qoute but in Falme Artur says to LTT(Rand) that he has fought both with him and against him many times (depending on who blew the horn of course. If LTT was a hero they should always have been on the same side.

Shadow Bane: 2003-07-13

Lewin-

"in Falme Artur says to LTT(Rand) that he has fought both with him and against him many times (depending on who blew the horn of course. If LTT was a hero they should always have been on the same side"

I thought he was implying that over the hundreds of lives he has lived sometimes he fought against the dragon and sometimes he fought on the dragon's side. Lews Therin is a hero because all of the hereos are very familiar with him, Birgitte even makes a remark about LTT's women troubles.

Rand-althor: 2003-07-13

It never says that LTT is a hero of the horn, but it is implied by the way the other heros greet him, as if he is a long lost friend, not as someone they met some life before, and have not seen since then. The fact that they didn't greet Mat and Perin the same way also implies that they are not heros of the horn.

Callandor: 2003-07-13

From post-TPOD signing:

**2.) Re: The Dragon and The Dragon Reborn

Q: "Is this soul born in any other age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as The Dragon/TDR?"

A: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age. In the course of this answer, he related this to why Hawkwing calls Rand "Lews Therin" at Falme--because Hawkwing recognizes this Soul. This didn't really tell me why he specifically calls him "LTT", but apparently they've been hangin' together in T'A'R and the etiquette there is to call each other by the name of your last incarnation.**

LTT is a Hero of the Horn.

juitzhead: 2003-07-13

Here's a summary on mat's memories. I posted it somewhere else but cant find it. Pretty much rules out mat's being a hero or someone specific reborn.

1.Mat has received memories from Maciene of Eharon some four or five hundred years before the Trolloc Wars to final battle of Hawkwings rise. Which means that he is not Hawkwing or Aemon or any other general.

2. Memories are primarily those of battles (mainly as a leader/field officer) but also include diplomatic missions. (Dancing in courts and such). Also includes memories dealing with the Athaan'Miere and of Sea Battles.

3. It includes memories of dying.

4. Some memories have surfaced before entering either ter'angreal doorway. The Old Blood.

5. Mat's ability to understand the Old Tongue is inherent due to the fact that he could understand the language of the Finn's when he entered both the Tear and Rhuidean doorways. Again, the Old Blood.

6. The Finns must either share memories stolen or steal memories from dead people. The Eelfinn (Rhuidean) doorway was not used by wetlanders for approximately 3000 years yet it was the Eelfinn which filled the holes in Mat's memories. So either there are more ter'angreal doorways, or the Tower of Ghenjei has been used as the other entrance to the Finn realm.

7. Speculation - Mat's memories were chosen to be ‘compatible' with what he would require. “Son of battles” and such. Manetheren because of the old blood. That is why he has received battle memories, because they are compatible with his Old Blood memories. There is a possibility that he might have rejected memories of diplomats or women because it wouldn't fit with his nature.

8. Speculation - Tower of Ghenjei is an entrance to either/both realms of the Finns. A way was figured out how to enter and adventure's used it.

10. Finn related – the Finn may read the entire thread of a persons life (or capture their memories when they die) and put it on file. Since they already have what they want, this may be a reason for anyones ability to only enter once. They do not want duplicates.

11. RJ has written in Glimmers Q&A section that Mats memories come from soldiers, adventurers and men of daring who have gone through the doorway. So, the Aelfinn share with the Eelfinn or there is another way to enter. See pt 8.

Rhodric: 2003-07-15

juitzhead.

Mat is someone reborn. in tDR, Mat remembers being the guy at the Tarendrelle who says "forward the heart guard". this is well before Finnland. this is who Mat was in his previous life.

he remembers this clearly i think due to the dagger, in similar vain to the taint effect on Rand's messy, messy consciousness.

all souls are reborn. Mat is that guy who says "Los Valdas Calda..." or whatever. i suspect he was the previous leader of the Band of the Red Hand, who were defeated defending King Aemon himself.

Mat is not hawkwing.

Mat is not any hero of the horn.

All souls are reborn.

Mat is one such soul, this forward heart guard guy.

Dorindha: 2003-07-15

Mat remembers being many different people - a collection of memories from the Finns and his old blood - he "knew" old tongue before he went through the doorways (there are plenty of discussions about this in various places around this site and the message boards) therefore, I think it impossible to identify just one soul that is reborn in Mat.

Shadow Bane: 2003-07-15

Mat and Perrin are not souls reborn for the various reasons posted. They will however become new heroes when they die. As for Mat he is "son of battles" so his hero persona will be like this. Matrim Cauthon, Son of battles. Just like other hereos have titles and such associated with him. I am currently working on a theory that Rand will 'remold' the dragon soul and Perrin and Mat's souls will be bound to him. It's weird to think of them being reborn as different people though.

Anubis: 2003-07-15

sorry if this has already been mentioned before... but lets not forget this series of events.

1. Mat blows horn.

2. Hawking shows up

M: Hi hawking

H: Hi mat, havin fun with that nice shiney horn of yours?

M: Yeah, aint it nifty?

H: Hey, just for the record, your not me right?

M: Dont think so.

H: Yeah, cause that would be pretty wierd what with me standin here and all.

M: I agree, im not you.

H: Glad we got that settled... oh hi Perrin!

(and there was a battle and some other stufff... yes this is the way i remember the books :P )

meradin: 2003-08-09

You build a pretty good arguement... if it is indeed true, then everything fits in a nice neat package... but the one thing that I've learned of RJ through reading this series... is that neat packages don't happen... and beyond that, is it possible for two poeple who share a soul to be in the same place at the same time? As in tGH, when Mat blew the Horn at Falme... hawkwing and Matrim were indeed in the same place... at the same time.

Callandor: 2003-08-09

For the last time:

MAT ISN'T HAWKWING!!!

1. Hawkwing uses a sword, Mat uses quaterstaffs and his ashaneraei

2. Mat has memories of fighting Hawkwing, not being him.

3. MAT WAS AT FALME, HAWKWING WAS AT FALME! Souls can't be two places at once!

Mat = Hawking? NO!

Than: 2003-08-23

first nones theroies are one hundred precent cause we dont know but it would seem to me that these are true statements one rand lews whoever is bound to the wheel this is stated but it is not stated that he is bound to the horn all of the f#$%ed up stuff that happens to rand when he uses the portal stone wrong in the great hunt shows that

but if dragon man was bound to the horn why would the horn-bound have fought against him? b.) mat favors staff weapons because he is a farmboy and thats what he receveied training in if mats da had given him a sword he would use a sword so weapons dont matter

and 42 its a book series why do you insult each other and call each other stupid if you yell no one listens if you wisper all strain to hear

Callandor: 2003-08-24

**mat favors staff weapons because he is a farmboy and thats what he receveied training in if mats da had given him a sword he would use a sword so weapons dont matter**

That's exactly my point. If Mat was Hawkwing, he would've used a sword not a quaterstaff, so the weapon does matter. Birgitte always, ALWAYS, uses a bow. LTT was a master of the sword and so is Rand. Mat is a master of the quaterstaff and ashandarei; Hawkwing used a sword.

Mat is not Hawkwing.

Sensir: 2003-11-14

why would mat be hawkwing if in one of his memories it clearly states he got his @** whooped by hawkwings army unless hawkwing was like 2 people (kinda unlikely) i dont remmeber when this happend but i know that mat is not hawkwing or else he would be seanchan....? it only makes sense and if so then he would be the son fo the 9 moons and marry his sister or soemthing

IkilledAsmodean: 2004-01-03

Clearly, Mat's memories don't indicate where his soul used to reside. If several memories indicate fighting Hawking, then there's no way there was enough time for one incarnation to die and another to be born. Thus, unles mat's soul is moving around in two bodies at once (as said regaridng Hawking, highly unlikely)the memories have little or nothign to do wiht his soul.

And by the way, that little convo between Mat and Hawking? Absolutley histerical, yet all too true. mat is not Hawking, nor any other known Hornbound.

caitlin: 2004-01-11

I think I agree with you. Although others have made it obvious that he has memories against Artur Hawkwing, maybe that associates him with the man more than just having the king's memories. it is true what Graendalboytoy said, he doesnt remember anything after the time of Artur Hawkwing. Maybe he's not the man reincarnated, but somehow assosiated with the old king's spirit.

shinowa: 2004-08-10

Could it still be possible that Mat is a Hawkwing?? Now hold on, I know that you all have your doubts, but I didn't say he was ARTUR Hawkwing!

Is there any chance he could be Artur's son and founder of the Seanchan??

Callandor: 2004-08-12

**Is there any chance he could be Artur's son and founder of the Seanchan??**

Is there a chance he's a jester from the Age of Legends? Sure. But is there any reason to think he is other then he is a funny character?

We have seen what can only be a previous life memory from Mat, and it involved Manetheren (and no, NOT! as Aemon). Could it be the same soul as Luthair? Sure, of course it's possible. But what makes you think it is?

Tamin: 2004-08-12

Nah. What would be the point?

Gordarius: 2005-09-14

Just gonna play devil's advocate here... I don't believe it (Mat being Hawkwing) myself but ok...

1. Hawkwings weapon isn't what made him famous, it's his skill as a general. Birgitte's shoes aren't what made her famous, so she could be wearing different shoes in every incarnation.

2. Mat has memories of different people (read souls) fighting both WITH & AGAINST Hawkwing. Hawkwing got old, but not old enough for Mat to be reborn that many times. Therefore it's unlikely that the souls who fought Hawkwing are his.

3. The Falme part & the most difficult part... You'll need a BIG fantasy to believe this, but maybe it wasn't Mat (or only a small part of him) blowing the horn. He was after all heaviliy influenced by the dagger of Shadar Logoth. Maybe it was removing his soul, so that it could appear when the horn was blown.

(like I said, I don't believe it myself, but ok)

Nihil: 2010-12-10

Well without going all over the problem of Mat's memories and all, it's just easier to think it that way.

Mat can't be Hawking's rebirth because when in "The Great Hunt" Mat blows the Horn of Valere, the heroes of the Horn are led by Arthur Hawking himself. How could his soul still be in the world of dreams and be in Mat at the same time?