1
Tamyrlin: 2000-11-14
I, personally, do not believe the Seanchan will ever submit to Rand. I can imagine a splinter group or some sort...but all of Seanchan. No.
2
oldmanfish: 2002-11-06
Mat and Tuon will be instrumental in bringing the Seanchan to Rand, of course. They will be allies in the Last Battle. Don't forget that Rand will "bend the nine moons to serve him". Not the DotNM, but the nine moons. The Empress, or the Empire. And do not forget, the Seanchan are not evil! Just different. They also oppose the Dark One.
I think Tuon's damane brought up her upcoming marriage, perhaps, but I think her interest in the ashanderei is just a side effect of her interest in Mat. Plus, she is a trained fighter, and the ashanderei is a cool weapon.
3
Tamyrlin: 2002-11-06
No. The main reason is the promise of future conflict "land will be divided by the return" after the Last Battle. Jordan has made it clear that he is not planning on chaos ending just because the LB comes and goes. The Seanchan will continue to divide the land, no chance that they (Empress and all) will jump on Rand's side, especially not after their humiliating defeat two books ago. Bending the nine moons doesn't explicitly say Empress either, it could easily symbolicly be making reference to the DoNM and a portion of the return possibly, but not the Crystal Throne.
4
oldmanfish: 2002-11-14
I think you got me this time, Tamyrlin.
5
Eilonwy: 2002-11-17
I agree that the Seanchan will not submit. They aren't evil, but Jordan doesn't like things to be all wrapped up neat and tidy. ;-)
6
Phlaneri: 2002-11-23
This is my first time posting a reply, but I remember that part of the Seanchan prophecies say that the Dragon Reborn must kneel to the crystal throne. I have always read that to be a Seanchan alteration of history, but what if it is true. Does Rand need to come to some arangment with them in the same way that he makes peace with the Seafolk (Having to go to their Mistress of the Ships, etc...). I think Mat will be the conduit that allows him to do so. Just a thought.
7
Callandor: 2002-12-11
Mat will marry the DOTNM for sure the Finn said so and the Guide says that what they say always comes true. As for Mat taking over the empire... unlikely i think. As for the spear... I think that Tuon had a Foretelling of her marrige to Mat and that the spear was a sign. Also notice her looks toward his ring he got and that has Ravens in it, and Ravens are the Seanchan symbol. As for Rand kneeling to the Seanchan thrown... what about the male adam? Ok... this is getting kinda off topic but it links in i think. Anath. Doesnt she seem a bit.. FREAKY to any of you? What if she was a Forsaken? More importantly what if she was Semirhage? The one Forsaken who likes torturing people, and may not be tied under Mordins leash. Anath as Semihrage makes sense to me... look at this. ALL the Forsaken dont control one place right out. They tend to be the power behind the power behind the power. Anath as truthspeaker gives her almost total control over DOTNM who is heir to the empire. Back to Rand tho... if Anath got the male adam and got Tuon to use it on Rand because Mat met up with him again and Tuon was with him, if she used it on him she controls him. So he **bows** to the Crystal Throne. But with the adam the controller begins to lose control and the man, Rand, would begin to control them. So Rand can then **bind** the Nine Moons to serve him. 2 PROPHECIES! Just think about it :-).
8
Darren: 2002-12-13
The Seanchan Prophecies are not separate prophecies, as with the sea folk prophecies of the Coramoor, they are the Karaethon Cycle reinterpreted by the Seanchan. Altered.
Hate to disagree with you Tamyrlin, but "bend the nine moons to his will," DOES mean the empress. That the daughter might be the empress by that point is irrelevant.
Also, I'm not sure if Mat will "take over" the Seanchan empire, but he IS going to marry the heir-apparent, and the man is a Battle-Lord. Once he invents cannon, or whatever, he will only be more so. It seems a safe assumption that the man will have a high status in the Seanchan Empire.
9
Sinnamoon: 2003-03-13
"bend the nine moons to serve him" To me this doesn't sound like one person.. nine moons? Also no where does it say Daughter; so it can't be Tuan. I think that perhaps it symbolizes nine 'somethings' in the empire. I for one am not going to begin to guess, however just because he is bending them doesn't mean he will bend them all the same way. So what if Rand bends a fraction towards him and another fraction remains against him? *sorry if I got a lil offa the Mat part hehheh*
10
Mairan Sedai: 2003-03-16
Nine moons doesn't have to be nine things, I don't think. Don't forget, there's not only a Daughter of the Nine Moons, but a Court of the Nine Moons. It could mean Tuon, the Empire, or basically anyone who's high up with the Seanchan.
As for Mat taking over the empire, I could see that happening. He would feel like he was being shoved into it, as usual, but it could happen. There will probably be a temporary alliance to face TG, but after that, back to the status quo.
11
kathleen: 2003-03-18
I think the Seanchan Empire will cease to exist (rather like the Aiel not being able to cope with their history) once the suldam's ability to channel is exposed, but it fits that Mat and Tuon together could cohere all the different factions.
12
Weird Harold: 2003-03-19
Mairan Sedai:
"... there's not only a Daughter of the Nine Moons, but a Court of the Nine Moons. It could mean Tuon, the Empire, or basically anyone who's high up with the Seanchan."
The Empire IS the "Nine Moons." The Empress and her Heir, Tuon are the personification of the Empire -- and by extension ARE the "Nine Moons."
There ARE no other possibilities for "binding the Nine Moons to him," and since Tuon is closest, she's the probable vehicle for fulfilling the prophecy.
The Seanchan are based on Japanese/Chinese/Asian cultural ideas, and the concept of the Emperor and the Empire being one singular thing is very common. There is a small element of that concept in Western ideas of Royalty and the "Divine Right of Kings," especially in Medieval times, but the concept has never been carried to the extremes it has in Asia. That makes it a bit difficult to understand from a Western perspective.
Mairan Sedai:
As for Mat taking over the empire, I could see that happening. He would feel like he was being shoved into it, as usual, but it could happen. There will probably be a temporary alliance to face TG, but after that, back to the status quo.
At best, Mat will reach a position something like a "Royal Consort." The Seanchan mindset doesn't seem like it would allow for Co-Rulers and Tuon IS the Nine Moons when her mother dies. There is no way Mat can overcome that distinction in Seanchan eyes. The Only way I can see for Mat to *rule* is for Tuon to name him her Heir and die -- and I can't see her dying alone.
Kathleen:
I think the Seanchan Empire will cease to exist ... once the sul'dam's ability to channel is exposed, but it fits that Mat and Tuon together could cohere all the different factions.
The Seanchan are hard to figure. They're very rigid in some ways and very flexible and adaptable in others.
One thing is clear to me, and that is that The Empress' word is FACT. Things are so simply because she says they are. Tuon's word can only be contradicted by that of the Empress -- something she apparently seldom does -- and for all practical purposes her word is also FACT to the Seanchan.
If the Empress decreed that the sky was Green, the Seanchan would rewrite the entire world to reflect that the color of the sky is green.
Tuon is being exposed to the concept that not all channeling women are marath'damane -- "those who must be chained." If she decrees "Only those who misbehave are truly marath'damane. Anyone who swears an oath to behave can cast off the a'dam." Then that is what will happen, and the Seanchan will accept the change of definition without blinking.
If she happens to be Empress and sitting on the Crystal Throne at the time she says it, no Seanchan would even think of objecting. Otherwise, she might have to eventually explain to Mommy, but she seems pretty persuasive.
13
araqyl: 2003-04-24
Personally, I think the spear is simply of interest because of the ravens (as on the ring - although the fox chasing ravens must have intrigued Tuon).
Also, what is the significance of NINE moons? Some memory of or link to the Nine Rods of Dominion??
14
Brighid: 2003-06-03
I think Tuon's interest in Mat is based at least in part on the prophecy that her damane made while they were still at sea during the Corenne...the prophecy which upset her so greatly that she had the damane birched for it, and then felt she had lost honor for doing so, and so put on the veil to make herself JUST the High Lady Tuon, and not The Daughter of the Nine Moons. (the private, self-imposed penance that gets Anath so riled up).
Based on her behavior towards Mat in both Winter's Heart but most especially in CoT, she recognizes him, or something about him. She doesn't object when he effectively tosses her over his shoulder and drags her back to his cave...she accepts it as something that she is EXPECTING. Perhaps the spear was in the damane's revelations, perhaps not. Maybe it has some special significance in Seanchan...it was crafted with the one power, so it either dates back to the Age of Legends, or it was created by someone channeling the one power who was not constrained by the Three Oaths. We haven't seen any evidence of it, but maybe power-wrought weapons are another Talent that still exists in Seanchan that has been lost in Randland, like the making of ter'angreal, (the a'dam).
15
Callandor: 2003-06-03
RJ has said that Mats medallion comes from the AoL so it seems most likely that the spear also comes from the AoL.
16
ranman38: 2003-07-23
Well all very interesting. Here is my take. Mat will fight and win on the Sean'chans side. The SC have a right to the land they will take and hold. Mat and Tuon will be Prince and Princess of the mainland of the newly held lands. And lest we forget Rand has already sent emmisaries to the SC for a peace treaty, and seemingly accepted. So, he will not takeover the empire, but be in very high standing.
17
Mizguidded Khild: 2003-07-24
I don't think Mat will take over the Seanchan, but he will be in a vast position of power. 1. He is going to marry the daugher heir of the Empire...who will one day be their absolute law when she is made Empress. 2. Mat is a warrior (whether he believes it or not) and the Seanchan have shown that great warriors are given the utmost respect. Once he earns that, they will follow him whereever...once you have a soldiers respect, he/she will follow you into hell and back...(one of the first thing they teach military leaders).
I think that Tuon may not want to bend to Rand, but at least 2 of the 3 ta'veren being there (Rand and Mat) she will bend to waht Rand needs to happen, with of course a little help from Mat sweet talking his woman...
18
Cliff-Hagard: 2003-11-23
Mat is sure to have some impact upon the seachan...i can't see Mat abondoning the red hand though, they just haven't done enough yet. Why all those events to get him to form the Band of the Red Hand just to lose thier general to the seachan. And all this talk about rand...is it not convient how it seems that the seachan have most nations rand doesn't???...convienent no? if Mat somehow does make a impact in the seachan he'd probably lead them behind Rand and poof! Rand has pretty much has all of Randland in his hands...and everything is set up for the LB.
19
Dragonsworn: 2004-02-01
This is a good theory I agree with it, but i was just wondering how important the fact that Tuon remains with Mat and doesnt run away. Rember in CoT, The DWG sworn to protect Tuon said this wasnt the first time she vanished. I beleve she is staying with Mat for 2 reasons. One she knows like mat they will marry and 2 she suspects Suroth of being a darkfriend(which she is, shown in book 2) and suspects that she has ill intentions towards her mother. SO she is with Mat, knowing that Mat is the only way to save the Seanchan empire from Suroth. Also its suspicious when Suroth replies to Rand stating that he must talk to the DoftNM, when Suroth knows she is missing
20
jehanderiel: 2004-11-15
The Seanchan will submit to Rand. The Crystal Throne of the Seachan is the High Seat of the Aes Sedai, which binds people to its owner's will. This is how the Seanchan have been united for so many years.
I believe Lews Therin will rewcognize this and explain to Rand how to bind it to his will.
