1
Tamyrlin: 2003-02-08
This is actually an unsolved mystery. I agree and have always pushed the idea that Barthanes was kiilled by a Gholam. Are there two? I think there have to be, the other seems to have been found by Sammael...but for it to occur in TGH it seems to early for that to have occurred.
2
jason wolfbrother: 2003-02-08
Sammael says when exactly he found the Gholam. He might have had it since his awakening. However, I think it is more likely that Ishamael/Moridin has another Gholam at his beck and call.
3
Sightburner: 2003-02-10
I think theres 6 Gholam, Tamyrlin, 3 female which are probuarly to kill male channelers and 3 male Gholam to kill female channelers because they aren't affected by channelers.
4
Dedicated: 2003-02-10
Yes, that's correct, there are a total of 6 gholam. In fact, Aginor mentions that he only made 6 because of the dangers of unleashing such creatures. But, I don't think that all 6 have been found, otherwise Rand and everyone (channelers and non-channelers alike) around him would be deader than doornails. One more thing, I don't think the shape the gholam was made (male or female) has anything to do with them killing male or female channelers. The gholam in Ebou Dar kills kinswomen, almost kills Elayne, and is chased away by Mat's medallion. That gholam was a "male" shape, and it killed both males and females indiscriminately.
5
Callandor: 2003-02-10
Sightburner is refering to female gholam killing male channelers and male gholam killing female channelers based on a theory that males are immune to female half of the source and females immune to male half. I for one am leaning toward this idea because it has RJ written all over it. Come on 3 males and 3 females split even. There has to be a big reason that this was made not just because Aginor was getting tired/sick/disguested at making them or anythiung, and this sounds like a very good reason.
6
Theron: 2003-02-10
Why should the Gholam obey anyone who can channel? Channelers pose no threat to them as they are immune to the One Power. It's true that they are creatures of the DO but even servants attempt to gain as much personal power and freedom as they can as evidenced by the constant infighting by the DO's followers. Gholam seems to have no aim but killing, but who or what could force a gholam to obey.
I think that sightburner has a point as well. At this point we have only seen male gholam attacking female users of the OP. Remember that Mat's medallion only protects him from Saidar. It stands to reason that the Gholam were created to opperate agianst specific types of channelers, but like Mat's medallion, are only protected from one half of the One Power.
7
Graendalboytoy: 2003-02-11
The distances involved are pretty far for just one to be the culprit. And if I was a channeler I wouldn't risk weaving a gateway for a gholam to many times. I think Graendal isn't the only Forsaken to fear Gholams. Although I'd wager that Ishy/Moridin may feel a little safer with the use of the TP available. Odds are there are more than one running around though.
8
Dedicated: 2003-02-11
O.K. maybe I was a bit harsh about the male, female thing. Come to think of it, we never have seen a male gholam kill male channelers, just regular men (Nalesean). The last post brings up another question. Would TP affect a gholam? I'm guessing it would, as they were designed to resist saidin and saidar, but I could be wrong.
9
Callandor: 2003-02-11
Mats medallion does protect against BOTH powers. Halima channeled at Mat in ACOS, in Salidar.
10
Dedicated: 2003-02-11
Thanks, Callandor. I was thinking about that statement today, when that thought about Halima came to me. You had already posted though. By the way, I think that gholams (male or female shape) are resistant to both powers. It is stated that they were designed to kill channellers, male or female. The gholam's "sex" makes no difference as to who it is sent to kill. The bodies of the gholams work like Mat's medallion.
11
Theron: 2003-02-11
I don't think that is quite correct Dedicated and Callandor, because, if Mat's medallion was able to protect him from both sides of the power, then he would not have been killed by Rhavin in book six. (Even though it was a temporary death, as Rand used bealfire on Rhavin, thus canciling out what he had done) Rhavin called down lightning from the sky, killed mat, and left a pair of smoking boots. Thus his medallion only protects him from female channeling.
(I think that this comes from the wording Mat used with the Finns. He asked to be free of Aes Sedai. At the time, the only Aes Sedai were females and thus the medallion only protects him from female channeling).
12
Tamyrlin: 2003-02-11
Okay. The correct answer is that Mat's medallion does protect him from both Saidin and Saidar, but only weaves directed at him. If the power is used to create a storm and that storm produces lightning, then Mat would not be protected. Elayne was proving this to herself when she was able to throw a rock at Mat, but not physically manipulate a weave at him, like holding him with air. The same goes for Saidin as was explained rather briefly (and without a quote) concerning Halima attempting something on Mat when he arrived in Egwene's camp during a "social" function if I am not mistaken.
13
Mairashda: 2003-02-12
Actually, what Mat says is:
"I want to be free of Aes Sedai and the Power." (tSR ,Ch.25 p.403 Orbit Paperback)
14
Theron: 2003-02-12
Yes, that is all very true. Mats' medallion only protects him from direct weaves from the one power. However I am fairly sure that when Rand and Rhavin were fighting that no storm was called forth. Only lightning, which would be a direct use of the one power.
Most of my house was destroyed in a flood amd my books were destroyed, so I can not confirm my memories for the time being :(
15
Dedicated: 2003-02-12
Sorry to hear about your loss Theron. I wish you the best.
Now, Tam made it clear to me in a theory response last night (I believe it was "The Dragon's Altered Destiny) that some of us around here have been hasty to give our knee-jerk opinions without really backing them up. Now, before anyone gets mad, I include my self in this group.
That being said, Tam here's the quote you were looking for concerning Mat and Halima. It's in LoC: The Color of Trust. pp.777 Mat is dancing with Halima at the celebration for Egwene being raised Amyrlin seat. Mat finally begs off from Halima (and makes a hilarious comment to himself that Halima kept trying to lead :)
"It should have been nothing, but before he had gone ten paces the foxhead went icy cold on his chest. He spun around, looking furiously for anything at all. What he saw was Halima staring at him in the firelight. Only for an instant before she seized a tall Warder's arm and whirled back into the dance, but he was sure he had seen shock on that beautiful face." So both kinds of flows are destroyed by the medallion (if they are directed at Mat). Now this indicates to me that the gholam (male or female) destroy both kind of flows directed at them. They are like Mat's medallion in that the flows directed at them (i.e. picking them up with air) dissolve. You could hit a gholam with a boulder thrown with flows of air, however (although with the T-1000 properties of a gholam, it might do any good.) The lightning bolts Rahvin threw at Rand's party were indirect. Mat was struck because the flows weren't thrown directly at him, he was affected by the collateral damage effect of lightning.
16
Fel: 2003-02-12
Hmmm...as to whether men are immune to women using the power or vice versa, why would the red ajah exist if females couldn't effect male channelers with saidar? Don't understand that point...
17
th0rz0r: 2003-02-14
Hello all, I am a new member...I simply had to sign up to reply to this theory....As far as Matt being killed by Rhavin, and the implications that follow, regarding whether or not his medallion protects against both halves of the power......It strikes me as incredibly odd that nobody has realized the fact that a bolt of lightning from Rhavin is an exremely powerful manifestation of the one power....The medallion is very useful, but still only a minor ter'angrael. To have matts medallion protect against something as massive as a full on attack from a forsaken, would simply make matt far too uber for realities sake. *shrug* My theory, drink it in.....
18
Theron: 2003-02-14
I went back in did some checcking, and have decided that Mat's medallion does NOT protect him from male channeling, and have the quote to prove it. It comes from chapter 54, 'To Caemlyn, in book five, 'The Fires of Haven'. The specific verse I am refering to in on 916, the third paragraph down. (*the caps version was placed there by me for emphises)...
---"There had been more than one bolt in that first volley, but not all had been aimed at him. Mat's smoking boots lay a dozen paces from where Mat himself sprawled on his back. Tendriles of smoke rose from the black haft of his spear, too, from his coat,EVEN THE SILVER FOXHEAD, HANGING OUT OF HIS SHIRT, THAT HAD NOT SAVE HIM FROM A MAN'S CHANNELING...."
--It goes on, but only to describe Asmodean being dead as well as Aviendha. Clearly, Mat's medallion could not protect him from Rhavin, and the man's channeling.
19
Mairashda: 2003-02-14
Does it say "hung out of his shirt"? (sorry, haven't got the book on me) that's clear then: the medallion has to have contact with his skin in order to protect him. hanging out of his shirt, it obviously cannot be touching his skin.
20
Tamyrlin: 2003-02-14
THE answer is that the medallion does protect Mat from both sources. The quote you use Theron could easily be applied to Mat getting hit by the rock that Elayne threw at him. It didn't protect him from Saidar indirectly, the same for the bolt of lightning that hit Mat. Similar to a bomb going off in front of you, the shockwave is going to kill you. The explosion killed Mat. RJ then is more explicit later by showing that in fact, direct weaves from Halima, are negated by his medallion. That is THE answer my friend.
21
Rand alThor: 2003-03-02
Well, hello guys, I'm new. just wanted to say there goes Tamyrlin, with his answers: who da man?? Tam is!!!!
22
Janstince: 2003-03-12
Frankly, I'm not so sure about this myself. Ter'angreal are all bad ideas, in my book. However, what about the one that Alivia wore in WH at Shadar Logoth? Lemme get the description here: "Just as it reached the woman (Alivia), almost close enough to singe her garments, the web of Fire unraveled. The woman did not do anything; the net simply came apart! Cyndane had never heard of a ter'angreal that would break a web, but it must be that" (WH:With the Choedan Kal:758 paperback). So, either Alivia is hiding some tricks up her sleeve, such as being able to make inverted weaves as well as being able to unravel OTHERS' weaves, or one of Nynaeve's ter'angreal jewelry can unravel webs. Could this be anything like what happens with Mat's medallion and the gholam? I don't think it actually "melts" saidar like the medallion, because it says that it picks the weave apart, like Aviendha. But still, that has some interesting applications with the right person.
23
Weird Harold: 2003-03-22
This does sound rather like the Gholam's modus operandi, does it not. So lets say Barthanes was killed by a Gholam. ... it could mean that there are two Gholam- one obeys Sammael and is stationed in Ebou Dar, the other obeys Ishamael/Moridin killed Fel... and barthanes.
I dont think Barthanes was killed by a Gholam, for a couple of reasons:
1: It isn't necessary to the Plot for Barthanes' death to be Gholam work.
2: We have been shown the Gholam at work when a Gholam was responsible.
3: There are more people who can disassemble people, and do, than the Gholam. i.e. Channelers, Myrdaal, etc.
Barthanes' manner of death is easily explained as a gruesome example to other DFs of the consequences for failure and bears some resemblance to the Wise One Sevanna had killed so it would be obvious the One Power was used.
The timing question of Herid Fel's death and Sammael's discovery of a stasis box is one I can't refute from memory. I'm not sure it CAN be resolved.
Sammael played things close to the vest, and only revealed things, such as the discovery of a stasis box, when it suited him to let the information out -- when he let the information "slip" doesn't reveal when he found the box or had time to sort through it's contents. (It wouldn't require much sorting to find the Gholam and it's control token, but other items may have taken a while to find and use.)
The sheer power and apparent invincibility of a Gholam make it unlikely that more than one has been released on the Third Age. If there ARE two, I would expect the second to be one of the "female" gholam for balance and surprise factor on those who know of the "male" gholam.
I'm pretty sure that Herid Fel's killer was identified as "he" but don't recall for sure; if not, then I think we can expect to see a "female" gholam soon. Otherwise, I'm firmly in the "There is Only One (Male) Gholam" camp.
Janstince, I'm not sure how the "Jewelry Set" Alivia wore at the Cleansing, or defensive tre'angreal in general, are relevant to the premise of this theory -- that there may be two gholam loose.
24
moose: 2003-05-15
Barthanes murder definitely matches the gholam's MO, while there are plenty of candidates that _could_ tear u limb from limb y would they? all the baddies so far have MOs and this one matches the gholam. simple.
imho however whether or not Barthanes was killed by a gholam isnt convincing evidence as to the number of gholam on the loose. With Travelling moving the Gholam from one attack to another rapidly is a simple opperation for whoever has control over it.
This does raise the question in my mind why with access to such a powerful weapon has the gholam not shown up more often? Do the gholam perhaps have a fatal flaw? (the forsaken dont seem aware of it so not likely). The gholam r like the Ultimate Greyman, they can walk in "anywhere" and kill "anyone" so why arent they being used!?!
Just as an aside i was happy to see the return of tGH, a failing of the books imo is that RJ keeps creating more and more baddy categories, trollocs, lurks, draghkar(SP), greymen, hell hounds, etc and utilising them for a few chapters and then never reusing them. No theory just an opinion.
25
rubbernilly: 2003-05-15
Fel...
...buddy...
You have to read all of the responses before you post. It isn't that people are saying that men can't be affected by saidar and women cannot be affected by saidin. What people are saying is that the GHOLAM males might not be affected by saidar and the GHOLAM females might not be affected by saidin.
I don't agree with this logic, but it is a far different argument than you hope to answer bringing up the Red Ajah.
26
araqyl: 2003-05-16
Moose, I believe the gholam have not been used more often because the Forsaken do not like them.
It's possibly like using a deadly virus to kill your enemies - one that could possibly be turned on you, at a time when you are not protected against it. No sane person is comfortable using a weapon that they have no reliable defense against, especially one that they know can be wielded by others who are less than friends (ie, the other Forsaken).
