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nother Access key to the Choedan Kal?
by Mairashda: 2003-02-20 | 1.33 out of 10 (6 votes)
Previous Categories: Miscellaneous Theories
Judging by this description it can safely be assumed that ter'angreal cannot be used to access the Choedan Kal anymore... but what do the intact ter'angreal look like?
"Two statuettes maybe a foot tall, a man and a woman, each holding a crystal sphere aloft in one hand" (tSR Ch.24 p.296)
In the Panarch's collection in Tanchico, however, there is an item which looks remarkably like the female access key:
"Tucked into a corner of one of the cabinets (,...) lay the upper half of a broken figure carved from some shiny white stone, a woman holding a crystal sphere in one upraised hand, her face calm and dignified and full of wise authority. Whole she would have been perhaps a foot tall. (...) She almost seemed to call to Egwene to pick her up." (tSR, Ch.11 p.203)
Now what to make of this?
It could either be the same ter'angreal that later on mysteriously (and fixed!) pops up in Rhuidean... say, Lanfear put it there...but why?
It would be a great way to explain why this ter'angreal broke, though.
On the other hand - this might just be the way to using the Choedan Kal again: just put two broken parts together to get one whole key.
but why two access keys in the first place?
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2003-02-21
I would imagine they created two keys for each to one, possibly if two people control it, it is not so overwhelming as it was for Nynaeve and Rand, or two, just in case one was broken or lost. Can the one in the panarch's palace be fixed? I don't know, maybe Elayne would know, but I think trying to use it broken will destroy you. But there are two access keys, two males, and two females. Maybe Alviarin went to Tremalking on some trip that Mesanna sent her on to investigate the Sa'angreal statue.
Great Lord of the Dark: 2003-02-21
Didn't Moghedien say of the Access key in Tanchico that it was "a fine trap for some unwary Aes Sedai?"
Or was it someone who warned Egwene or Nynaeve (pretty sure it was Nynaeve) "It won't work any more, not broken like that. It might burn you out if you tried to use the sa'angreal it's connected to."
We've heard similar stories of channelers being harmed by damaged ter'angreal and angreal. Also, if Moghedien could get any use out of it, she would have taken it long since, or after Nyaneve left Tanchico.
Getting these access keys seems to be as good as getting Rand, based on Moridin's instructions in Winter's Heart. Though Moridin may have been referring to the remaining cuendillar seals, since other attempts were made to get them in the prologue of Crossroads of Twilight.
So I'd guess there were several access keys for each of the giant statue sa'angreal. Perhaps their builders wanted several people to be able to use them at the same time.
It's also possible the Keys are designed for one-time use only, or that the female access keys have some flaw that makes them so.
In any case, Lanfear probably didn't move it, or even know about it. It broke some time over the last 3000 years, as so many relics of the Age of Legends have. It's mentionned only to emphasize the importance of Rand's find in Rhuidean.
Jearom: 2003-02-22
I think that the fact that Cadsuane tucked the remaining fragment of the statue into her saddle bags at the end of WH means that we will see it make a further appearance.
Elayne seems to be the most likely candidate to fuse the two god halves of the statues which remain.
The access keys perform two very important functions - firstly to allow you to draw through the giant Sa'angreal from anywhere, secondly it provides a buffer to prevent the user from being burnt out - Elayne had better get that part right.
Gird: 2003-02-22
So who do we have that may be able to fix or recreate a key? Elayne is the choice for the light. Cyndane/Lanfear cause she was a researcher, Meesana might be able to but that's shady. I doubt that Elayne would be able to look at it and recreate it. She would probably need some help from someone of the AOL to create something that great.
Callandor: 2003-02-22
If ANY of the Forsaken could make Ter Angreal or Angreal or Sa Angreal they would be Nae bliss for sure because of their knowledge advantage.
Plus look at how they all FLOCK to get and power objects in hopes for angreal and sa angreal. Now come on, if they could make it they wouldnt look for others.
Beryl Logan: 2003-02-22
I dunno why, but I always had the impression that it took multiple people to make angreal and sa angreal. If this is true, none of the Forsaken get along enough to really make one, because however they made it, someone would turn out to have the better deal.
kyuss: 2003-02-23
Isn't the main question whether there are any other keys? Assuming the broken one is not the one used by Nynaeve, that means there are (or were) at least two female access keys to the Choedan Kal.
This, we would assume, means that there are also at least two MALE access keys, and unless I've not paid attention in my readings and rereadings we've only seen one key so far.
So, if there are two of each, then Rand has one of each, the second female key is broken and ... the second male key is out there waiting to be found. By whom? The Forsaken would love to get their greasy mitts on it, but that's unlikely to happen as it'd make them a match (and maybe more) for Rand.
Also, has there been anything even hinted in the books to imply that angreal, ter'angreal or sa'angreal can be repaired? Making them may have been rediscovered and possible for a select few, but surely the damaged access key from Tanchico is irreparable?
Elberyn Delumen: 2003-02-23
I'm pretty sure that in Winter's Heart and maybe the BWB, they talk about there being multiple keys to the Choedan Kal. I remember in the meeting of the Forsaken, Aran'gar talks of there being more than one. The number seven sticks out in my mind, but I could be wrong.
Daishan: 2003-02-23
About the number of Access Key's; I just re-read "the strike at shayol ghul" on the net at www.tor.com/shayol and Jordan at the end remarks about the keys that "the ter'angreal were widely scattered across...etc.". Read the link, especially the comments at the end. It would seem to me, that for items to be "widely scattered", there have to be quite a few. More than four I would say, maybe as many as ten or twenty. Though the exact number is named nowhere I think, the term "widely scattered" calls for a re-evaluation...
Janstince: 2003-02-23
The only problem with remaking the Choedan Kal is that even if you do, what's the point? We know the statue on Tremalking is broken beyond repair, at least in this age, and I'm not sure whether to assume the one in Cairhien is, as well, although if as much saidin was drawn through it to make the amt of saidar look like "a hill to a mountain," then i think it would be safe to say so. I think the giant statue sa'angreal are now useless, and Rand is going to have to wield Callandor in the end, of course with the help of Elayne and Aviendha, because of the flaw. Isn't that interesting, btw, how it takes two women linked to the man drawing thru Callandor, and Rand just happens to fall in love with 3 women, two of whom can channel? Very coincidental, or ta'veren at work?
jason wolfbrother: 2003-02-24
Again where does it say the Sa'angreal is now useless and broken? We know the Choedan Kal for females is broken. But there is no quote that refers to the statue also being broken. We had Alviarin visiting Tremalking after it was used and I'm pretty sure she would have mentioned that even if only to herself. Too many people are making this assumption. The statue is intact and ready for reuse, only the access ter'angreal was broken.
Elder Haman: 2003-02-24
Some points- the Choedan Kal is not broken- two of the female access keys are.
Also- Rand does not need two women to channel through Callandor- It is NOT flawed. No matter what Cadsuane thinks-
Obviously Callandor was designed specificaly for LTT BEFORE the Bore was sealed- therefore there was no taint to worry about. The lack of a buffer was probably purposely designed into the sa'angreal so that if necessry LTT could power more power though it if things got desperate- even if it did end up killing him- It's the kind of thing LTT would think of- Rand has already channeled through Callandor, and now that the taint is gone can do so again w/o those side effects from before.
Dragons Shadow: 2003-02-24
I think that Rand will use Callandor in conjunction with the Choedan Kal at the last battle. This is what will result in the new breaking.
Dragons Shadow: 2003-02-24
With the taint gone there is no need for 2 women to provide a buffer.
Also, the time of illusions was ended when the globe sticking out of the ground began to shine with the radiance of the sun. This was the signal of the end. The Chodan Kal may have been damaged, but we are not told of any apparent damage, and any hidden damage will not appear until they are used again. as for there being another access key, there might be many or there might be none. They CAN be damaged or destroyed, and they did go through the breaking. There is a good chance that the next female to attempt to use the chodan kal, will have to do it from tremalking.
Dedicated: 2003-02-24
Just a FYI point. It is not safe to use the Choedan Kal without the access keys. Chanelling directly through the huge statues would probably cause death or instant burn out (most likely painful death).
silverwolf: 2003-03-08
Why is everyone talking about repairing the access key? If Elayne can get her hands on it and figure out how it was made she wouldn't have to repair it--she could just make a new one (i.e.: whether or not ter'angreal can be repaired is completely irrelevant).
Dragons Shadow: 2003-03-11
I don't remember any reference to the danger of using the Chodan Kal directly. Could you please tell me where?
Rand alThor15: 2003-03-12
There isn't anything anywhere which says that it it dangerous, though Rand says that he uses the access keys because the CK are too far apart
Daishan: 2003-03-12
"Another plan at the time centered around two huge sa'angreal, one attuned to saidin and one to saidar, both so powerful that using them required special ter'angreal, ..."
Again a quote from "the strike at Shayol Ghul", the BWB. Read it at www.tor.com/shayol.html
Most of the information about the Choedan Kal comes from that. So the Choedan Kal have to be used through the keys. The question is; will Rand be needing BOTH at the LB? Is he going to seal the Bore with both sa'angreal? In the same "strike at Shayol Ghul" sequence it goes on about using the Choedan Kal to erect a barrier around Shayol Ghul, not about using them to seal the Bore. Any thoughts?
By the way, in the original theory at the top of this page Mairashda asks "why to access keys in the first place?". Answer (I think): too much Power is involved. We know it's possible to let two people draw through the same "amplifier", so that way the Power gets divided, preventing people from, well, basically, dying...
TheNetweaver: 2003-03-12
It says right in the BWB that even the strongest channeler would be burned out by the huge flow of the One Power.
Weird Harold: 2003-03-13
Daishan asked, "In the same "strike at Shayol Ghul" sequence it goes on about using the Choedan Kal to erect a barrier around Shayol Ghul, not about using them to seal the Bore. Any thoughts?"
One of the veryfirst hints about how to succeed at T'G is in the very definition of Saidin and Saidar: There is a male HALF and a female HALF of the power, yet it called the ONE power. the bore can'tbe sealed with the HALF power, it will take the ONE power. The reasonthe seals are failing is because they were placed with just Saidin. If the original plan to use Six men and Seven women in a circle toplace the seals had been used, the seals would have held and there would not have been a counterstroke.
Mairashda asked, "but why two access keys in the first place?"
others have pointed out, there were more than two keys built, or at least planned, for the CK. I suspect that the same mix as the original plan for placing the seals -- Six men and Seven Women -- were planned. (with possibly a few extra for insurance.)
The obvious reason would seem to be that a circle with all thirteen members drawing on the CK would be unimaginably powerful. If one man and one woman could "challenge the creator," a circle of Six and Seven (or a full, balanced circle of 72 if they were insane enough to make that many keys) could literally replace the Creator!
I doubt that the broken keys can be repaired, but somewhere there are more keys to be found -- perhaps there's one in the WT storeroom. That's where Elayne and Nyneave were taken the first time they used NEED in T'A'R. One of the female keys would certainly fulfill just about any need they could imagine. ;)
Daishan: 2003-03-14
More people drawing on the same angreal doesn't make them more powerful. An angreal has a maximum itself I believe. Else, why wouldn't all members of a circle draw through an angreal instead of just the one that has it (for instance at the Bowl of the Winds thing). Since the ter'angreal are just "keys" and not sa'angreal themselves, all the increased Power still has to come from the Choedan Kal, and therefore, 6 or 7 people drawing on the same thing would just divide the total increased Power between themselves. I think the keys were made for just that purpose though; to lessen the amount of Power one single person would have to handle. But my question remains; in the AoL, people were talking about erecting a barrier around Shayol Ghul with the CK, not about sealing the Bore with them...
Weird Harold: 2003-03-14
--- Daishan Said:
"More people drawing on the same angreal doesn't make them more powerful. An angreal has a maximum itself I believe. ... I think the keys were made for just that purpose though; to lessen the amount of Power one single person would have to handle. "
With a normal angreal or sa'angreal, I'd agree with you. With the Chodean Kal, the surplus over what one person can draw through any single access key is so great that multiple users is practical. In effect, each Key is a Sa'angreal rather than a ter'angreal except in the hands of an incredibly strong user. Even with incredibly powerful users, using multiple keys together would insure that every erg of power the CK Statues could provide was accessible.
--- Daishan Said:
But my question remains; in the AoL, people were talking about erecting a barrier around Shayol Ghul with the CK, not about sealing the Bore with them..."
Whether the full output of the CK was intended to erect a barrier in the AOL, in THIS age, it can be used to seal the bore -- or more likely Heal the Bore from the Pattern.
Rand and other channelers in this age seem to think more "outside the box" than was the case in the AOL. I think it's a case of not knowing what is "impossible."
"If the experts are stumped, send an apprentice; he'll do something stupid to fix the problem." -- old troubleshooting axiom.
Daishan: 2003-03-16
Actually, you ARE agreeing with me :)
I was saying that multiple keys were made so more people could draw through the same sa'angreal, in effect spreading out the total Power increase between several users, and thus using every scrap of the Power, without over-exerting any specific user. We appearantly also agree that when an incredibly powerful channeler is connected, this isn't necessary, and adding another channeler wouldn't increase the total amount then; just divide it between them.
About the barrier/sealing; you're right, that's very well possible. :)
Callandor: 2003-03-17
In Rhuidean, Rand and Asmo fight over the male access key and they both draw only half of it in about, since we dont know if there is a limit.
Question is did that happen because they were drawing through one access key or was it from the one sa angreal?
Weird Harold: 2003-03-19
Daishan:
"Actually, you ARE agreeing with me :)
We apparently also agree that when an incredibly powerful channeler is connected, this isn't necessary, ..."
With only one qualification, we do agree. You appear to believe that "an incredibly powerful channeler" that can draw the full potential of the CK is possible, I don't.
I don't think it possible for anything organic to handle what the CK can put out -- I doubt that it's actually possible for every possible key to draw that much working together. The potential is just so far above what can be used that there would always be some reserve available. The only way I can imagine the CK being "maxed out" is if EVERY male channeler had a Key and used as much power as they could at once.
Callandor:
Question is did that happen because they were drawing through one access key or was it from the one sa'angreal?
I think that was an indication that at that point, Rand and Asmodean were exactly equal in power. Nyneave's encounter with Moghedien worked the same way only without angreals or Sa'angreals.
I think of the Keys as extension cords -- they let you draw power away from the socket in the wall.
Weird Harold: 2003-03-20
ME:
The only way I can imagine the CK being "maxed out" is if EVERY male channeler had a Key and used as much power as they could at once.
I just relaized that this seems contradictory. I didn't make clear that used separately they wouldn't suffer the "whole is less than the sum of the individual abilities" limitation of working in link-circles.
I don't think any individual or Ring can draw to the full potential of the CK. Enough *separate* individuals could overload it.
Anubis: 2003-04-17
i think that a channeler can reach the CKs limit. when rand and asmodean are fighting over it, they each draw half of its potential. if it had unlimited, or simply more then rand could draw, then i dont think half would have been mentioned. also there would have been clensing * 2 levels of saidin, and i dont think only a mountian would have been shattered.
Weird Harold: 2003-04-18
Anubis,
When Rand and Asmodean fought over the key, each drew as much as they could -- NOT as much as the CK could provide -- indicating that, at that point in the story, Rand and Asmo were equally matched.
By the time of the cleansing, Rand was much stronger and drew more fromthe CK than both he and Asmo drew in Rhuidean. In Rhuidean, they didn't draw enough for every male channeler in the world to notice, yet Rand alone drew that much at Shado Logoth.
How much can be drawn from the CK depends on the channeler's strength, and how much a single key will allow to be drawn through it. I think of the key as a sort of circuit-breaker that will only allow a set amount of current to flow. Since there are multiple keys, then the CK has to be able to "power" more than one key at a time.
delboy: 2003-04-25
I'm agreeing with Weird Harold here on most points. I think its safe to say that Nynaeve, at least, came pretty close to maxing out the female CK, hence the reason the terangreal melted. It makes sense that if men were generally stronger than women, the male key would possibly be designed to produce more power, since the men would be able to handle slightly more power with lesser burnout risk. The panarchs statue could have been destroyed in the same way in the eraly testing years of the CK- one of the forsaken perhaps maxing it out.
i reckon that Nynaeve did max the female key, whereas rand could have pushed a lot harder before reaching the melting point, which i consider to be absolute safe limit point.therefore the circle idea could be interesting, although i think it would only take possibly one more male, or two at the most.
However, a circle where some people use angreals is much stronger than a circle with no boosters. i think that a circle of 6 men and seven women would be the best use of this power, with Nynaeve, Rand, and two other males using the CK, and someone having access to Callandor.
Step aside Creator!
rubbernilly: 2003-05-19
I am agreeing with Harold on this one, as well:
The CK, like all angreal and sa'angreal, multiply what a person can hold on their own. If the mechanic of this multiplication is as we are addressing here - that the CK can only handle a fixed, if incredible, amount of power and that as more access keys are used the more quickly this upper limit is reached - then I agree that the CK have an enormous store of energy that would not be spent by multiple channelers using multiple keys. One key, even in the hands of Rand or Ishy, wouldn't exhaust the OP available.
However, there may be a different mechanic involved. Think about the way this sa'angreal is used. It is different from every other angreal and sa'angreal that we have seen in that one must use an access key. Perhaps this is not only a method of protection against the immense power of the CK, but also a method by which the sa'angreal is "replicated" for each channeler. IOW, every user of an access key would have access to the entirety of the CK's multiplication of his/her power. In that case, multiple access keys in a circle would be *very* useful.
Either way (a vast store of the ability to magnify channeling capability, or allowing multiple users the ability to have the full effect of the CK), I don't think we have begun to near the power that could be wielded by multiple people in a circle wielding access keys of the CK.
Now, a couple of notes on the female CK.
1) I don't think that it is any less powerful than the male CK. When Rand was channeling a mountain compared to the molehill of saidar, I think that was just because he did what he had to do with saidar - which wasn't much. He just needed the conduit into Shadar Logoth. What he needed out of saidin, on the other hand, was to channel enough that the taint would begin to shift and slide off.
2) I wonder if the female CK is damaged in some way. Think about it this way, that would solve 3 questions that we have outstanding about it:
a) Why is the first access key (in Tanchico) broken?
b) Why does the second access key melt while Nynaeve is using it, and using it far less than what Rand was using out of the male CK?
c) What did Alviarin get sent to investigate on Tremalking?
Perhaps the answer to all of these is that the female CK is damaged, or was never completed properly (as already noted, LTT points out that they were never tested). So the access keys burn out when used, and Mesaana sends Alviarin to find out what's wrong with the statue, if there is any damage readily apparent. If that is true, then we know that Mesaana might have planned to use the CK herself in her future plans... and if *that* is true, then we might watch her for the appearance of another access key.
Sorry, I know this was long... I get carried away.
Rand-althor: 2003-05-19
I believe that the key broke because of something that was either done wrong, or some kind of meddling on the forsaken or their minion's part. I believe that one of the male forsaken at some point either had a chance to taint the key(unlikely unless they did it before being sealed in the bore) or the actual statue. Now for people who ask why the female, not the male, which would be easyer to get at, is simple. A male forsaken would want to kill Rand and take the key for himself, and as I have said, none have not had a chance to get at either of the keys since being freed, had to taint one of the statues instead of the key. Now Callandor lacks the buffer that angreal have to prevent you from drwaing too much through it. What if the CK had that, but the tampering messed up the buffer, eliminating it. The creators of the CK and the keys, expecting this, or possably just putting an added defence in, put a similar buffer on the keys. When the female CK was tampered with, and when too much was being drawn through the key, as in about to pass the threshold of what the CK could hold, melted to prevent the amount drawing into the CK to become to much. Of course this idea is based on a assumption that there is a limit to how much angreal/sa'angreal can hold before they destroy themselves, so somebody explain where this is proven wrong(for my curiosity, cause if im wrong i wanna know what the point of the buffers in angreal are for.)
perlchild: 2003-05-27
Wouldn't the one in tanchico, the one that seems almost obviously a trap, be more likely to be like Callandor? i.e. not to have a buffer, and tempt the user to overload his/her own limits?
Although I'll admit, it's kinda strange that Nynaeve managed to overload her access key without pushing her own limits, especially over several hours, and the damage to her stamina that seemed to result...
But it could be that what she overloaded... was the BUFFER... and drawing so much, she actually broke the buffer in this particular key... while the other one, quite like callandor, wouldn't have one, and as such would be a trap for a female channeler?
Any thoughts?
mako0424: 2004-03-23
well i think it is kind of logical. The trap spoken of for the female Choden Kal was exactly that it was broken, and therefore buffer was worn, but now you ask why didn't the forsaken take it and fix it if that was possible, and then you ask how in the hell could elayne fix it without Age of legend help, same reason Nynaeve learned to heal stilling, elayne learned to make cuendillar, and rand learned balefire. They are the strongest channelers of this time, and there old memories and ingenuity have provided them with more help and info than even the Forsaken know anymore. None of the Forsaken probably that it could be fixed, and therefore a nice little trap, but we see that Cadsuane kept half the access key nynaeve used, and the other half will be left to elayne to fix, which she will, and they will be used in Tarmon Gaidon. and remember, the girls kept asking Moghedien, when she was captured, how to make ter'angreal, and she still didn't know.
The Forsaken are strong, but not all powerful. they make many mistakes, and these mistakes are where they will fail, but what i wonder, is where the second male access key is, because i would imagine that a few were made for each so it could all be safely handled. will rand and Moridin be struggling in the end for control of the most powerful male sa'angreal.
dragonsceptor: 2004-03-23
I have an idea why femal access key may have melted.
From the Strike at Shayol Ghul:
The access ter'angreal were being made at a place far removed from the sa'angreal (apparently because of a danger of "uncontrolled resonances during the final stages," whatever that means), and that region was overrun by forces under Sammael.
We know the female statue is in Tremalking and the Male is in Cairhairn. We also know that the access keys were used in Shador Logoth. What if the reason the female access key melted was because of this resonance issue? Physical proximity would most likely be a part of any resonance between the access key and the large statue. Perhaps the reason that the female access key melted is because it was too close to the large statue.
I know there are a couple of things against this.
So, why didn't the male access key melt then? Two possible reasons. First, SL is closer to Tremalking than Cairhairn where the male statue is. I don't know that this is true as I have never seen SL on a map. I seem to remember that in TEOTW, the boys met up with Bayle Doman and sailed downriver for almost a week before reaching whitebridge. It seems like SL may be pretty close to the same distance from either but I'm not sure. Any help on the location of SL in relation to the Choedan Kal would be appreciated. Second, it was never stated whether the resonance was an issue with both male and female access keys. Perhaps it was only a problem with the female access key.
Anyway, just a thought I had while reading this theory.
Davian93: 2004-03-23
****we see that Cadsuane kept half the access key nynaeve used****
Cadsuane didnt keep the broken half of the access key. She dropped on the ground and then tucked the male access key in her saddlebags. She thought that being broken it was worthless, so its probably still sitting on a hillside near the site of Shadar Logoth.
"Cadsuane let the thing that had been a ter'angreal drop to the ground. It could no longer be called a statue of a woman. The face was as wisely serene as ever, but the figure was broken in two and lumpy like bubbled wax where one side had melted, including the arm that had held the crystal sphere now lying in shattered fragments around the ruined thing. The male figure was whole, and already tucked away in her saddlebags." WH, Ch 35
and
"On the hilltop, the wind blew dust across the fragments of what had once been a ter'angreal. Below lay the tomb of Shadar Logoth, open to give the world hope."
sburch: 2004-08-01
The CK can be maxed because while Rand and Asmo were both holding the access key Rand pulled more power through the fat man to cut off Asmo
Saldean Farm Boy: 2004-08-02
Let's look at it like this. When Rand and Asmo were battling over the CK they both were even. I imagine it like this, each of them are a glass of water, the level is the amount they can channel unaided. Rand's cup may have a little more in it at this time. When they used the CK Both glasses were filled to the top but no higher. The CK evened them out. So if it let them channel the same amount the buffer was working harder on Asmo than on Rand because there was less to buffer. I don't know of a comparison of Rand to Nyanave in strength, but appearantly the buffer on the female access key was used more. Maybe the access keys for the females were not given as strong a buffer as the male ones. Or the buffer on the male access key is used less because they can channel more of the OP. Either could explain the female access key melting.
I like the location argument, but after checking a map I think (not positive) that the female CK was futher away.
Since the keys were made as far away from the CK as possible wouldn't there be a better chance of there being more keys on the other side of the world? I know stuff moved a lot in the breaking, but speaking generally.
Callandor: 2004-08-02
**Let's look at it like this. When Rand and Asmo were battling over the CK they both were even. I imagine it like this, each of them are a glass of water, the level is the amount they can channel unaided. Rand's cup may have a little more in it at this time. When they used the CK Both glasses were filled to the top but no higher. The CK evened them out. So if it let them channel the same amount the buffer was working harder on Asmo than on Rand because there was less to buffer. I don't know of a comparison of Rand to Nyanave in strength, but appearantly the buffer on the female access key was used more. Maybe the access keys for the females were not given as strong a buffer as the male ones. Or the buffer on the male access key is used less because they can channel more of the OP. Either could explain the female access key melting.**
Not sure if what I am about to say is simply a retelling of what you say, but I wanted to state my take on both the Cleansing and the Rhuidean battle.
This is going to be a very, very, simplified view of it.
When Rand and Asmodean faught in Rhuidean, they matched strengths. On a scale of one to ten, lets say they were both 6's.
Rand = 6 Asmodean = 6
Rand's strength = Asmodean's strength
The Choedan Kal acted as a multiplier (this is the simplified part, since people say that sa'angreal's are both multipliers and addative. I'm simplifying it to be, all sa'angreals are multipliers). Due to it's power as a sa'angreal, lets say it's a 100x.
So, Rand drawing on the Choedan Kal as of TSR, would be 6 * 100 = 600 level strength. Asmodean would also be a level 600 hundred, if he drew through it alone.
The key is singular use, or multiple use. Rand was drawing through the Choedan Kal at the same time Asmodean is drawing through it. So if you wanted to make an equation for the possible maximum level for using the Choedan Kal it could very well be:
Base channeling level (Rand and Asmo = 6) * Sa'angreal strength (Choedan Kal = 100) / number of users
So in Rhuidean it is:
6 * 100 / 2 = 300. That's the comparative levels Rand and Asmodean were drawing.
Now, some people will jump at "But Rand and Nynaeve were two users in the Cleansing, so their strengths were halved." No, they were linked. One person draws on the Source through the person then (plus, Nynaeve was using the Female Choedan Kal, Rand the male).
So, at the Cleansing, after Rand has increased his strength through TFOH (and can match Lanfear in strength and best Rahvin, then more possible growth through LoC - WH), let's say Rand has a level 10 channeling strength, strongest in the world, and Nynaeve is an 8.5.
Rand's drawing:
10 * 100 / 1 = 1,000
Nynaeve's drawing:
8.5 * 100 / 1 = 850
For more simplicity, let's simply add them for the link (even though two women linked do not simply add their strengths, it could be totally addative for men and women linked, so ~shrug~), for a total of 1,850 drawing strength. All day long.
For why the female key melted, Moghedien gives a minor tidbit:
**TITLE: Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 35 - With the Choedan Kal
Moghedien was not sure why she had remained this long. There could not be more than two hours of daylight left, and the forest was quiet. Except for the key, she could not feel saidar being channeled anywhere. That was not to say that someone was not using small amounts somewhere, but nothing like the fury that had raged earlier. The battle was over, the other Chosen dead or flying in defeat. Plainly defeat, since the key still blazed in her head. *Amazing that the Choedan Kal had survived continuous use for this long, at this level.***
Time and total strength drawing through it seems to be the reason why it did melt. For why the male key did not suffer the same fate, I haven't the foggiest clue. ;)
matoyak: 2004-08-03
doesn't choden kal mean access keys in the old tongue? or is that the name given to the big sa'angreal statues? (i doubt that because everyone keeps saying [refering to the big statues] that there are more than one [or maybe i'm just tired it ~is~ 2 a.m.]) and does anyone know how much the BWB cost and where i can find it? As there are way too many references not to get it. and yes there are something like 6 (male) and 7 (female) choeden kal
Saldean Farm Boy: 2004-08-10
Callanor I like the way you broke it down using math. I thik that has to be very close to how it actually works. I wish we had a compairson of strength between Rand and Asmo.
They call them Access Keys, because they give access to the greater sa'angreal. They act more like a circut. Callanor pointed out Moggies quote about being suprised that it had lasted so long with continus use. A circut overloaded will heat up and short out. I think the CK did somthing along those lines.
Question, Why did the buffer hold when the key melted?
Suggestion, Maybe the link between Ny an Rand acted as a buffer? What think you?
Chris Sedai: 2006-07-21
Maybe they had two Women access keys made so that there would be one man and two women. That would limit the amount of power the Women ter'angreal could sustain.
minalth: 2006-07-23
I had a few small points
could it be Nyn's relative weakness in the power that stressed the key more than Rand's was stressed because he is stronger?
Correctly from wrong, but I think that the same part of both female keys is broken, which make it particularly difficult for Elayne to fix or create a new one.
About the resonance thing, female chanelers see glows around others, and male channelers feel tingling, but men don't see anything when men channel and women can't detect men's channelling.
maybe saidar makes more ripples in the pattern than saidar, and so resonance would be more of a problem with the female choeden kal.
hope that makes SOME sense
nawaz579@gmail.com: 2007-12-10
Sorry this has nothing to do with the access keys but i thought it would be important. i disagree that the creator can be replaced by using the choedan kal or all the angreal and saangreal in the world combined and all the strength of the channelers combined. The reason is simple. The creator made saidin and saidar. He had enough powere to do that and create the universe. The choedan kal's powere can only destroy the world. Also even with them only a little of the full amount of saidin and saidar is tapped. So if the creator could so so much then how can anyone challenge him even with a full circle of 72 watever lanfear says.
greatwolf: 2008-01-04
*****
could it be Nyn's relative weakness in the power that stressed the key more than Rand's was stressed because he is stronger?
*****
First one key melted, and then another. And then the CK itself melts. It points more to a weaknesss in the female keys and statues. Especially considering that more of saidin was used and that didn't melt.
It is possible though, that the male key has never been used before, and that the female CK has reached the end of its natural lifespan. :)
Marie Curie 7: 2008-01-06
greatwolf:
"First one key melted, and then another. And then the CK itself melts. It points more to a weaknesss in the female keys and statues. Especially considering that more of saidin was used and that didn't melt."
The fact that the female Choedan Kal melted perhaps does indicate a flaw or weakness in the statue. The access key that Nynaeve used was broken in two, but it was also melted and the sphere was shattered:
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TITLE: Winter's Heart, CHAPTER: 35 - With the Choedan Kal
Cadsuane let the thing that had been a ter'angreal drop to the ground. It could no longer be called a statue of a woman. The face was as wisely serene as ever, but the figure was broken in two and lumpy like bubbled wax where one side had melted, including the arm that had held the crystal sphere now lying in shattered fragments around the ruined thing. The male figure was whole, and already tucked away in her saddlebags. Callandor was secured, too. It was best not to leave temptation on the open hilltop. Where Shadar Logoth had been there was a now a huge opening in the forest, perfectly round and so wide that even with the sun low on the horizon she could see the far side sloping down into the earth.
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However, we don't know what happened to the other female access key -- it doesn't appear that it was melted. The female access key that Egwene found in the Panarch's Palace was broken in half, not melted:
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TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 11 - What Lies Hidden
One thing actually seemed familiar, though she could not say why. Tucked into a corner of one of the cabinets, as if whoever put it there had been uncertain that it was worthy of display, lay the upper half of a broken figure carved from some shiny white stone, a woman holding a crystal sphere in one upraised hand, her face calm and dignified and full of wise authority. Whole, she would have been perhaps a foot tall. But why did she appear so familiar? She almost seemed to call to Egwene to pick her up.
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So, that access key might have been damaged when someone previously attempted to use the female Choedan Kal, but we certainly don't know that.
Davian93: 2008-01-08
****First one key melted, and then another. And then the CK itself melts. It points more to a weaknesss in the female keys and statues. Especially considering that more of saidin was used and that didn't melt.
It is possible though, that the male key has never been used before, and that the female CK has reached the end of its natural lifespan. :) ****
Two quick things. There was only one Female Key that melted and secondly the CK had never been used before because the keys were lost during the Breaking and left in Rhuidean. The second female key was the broken statue in the Panarch's palace however that one didn't break from use.
greatwolf: 2008-01-10
thanks marie, i didn't notice that. However melted or broken (about the only broken TA or SA i recall except the seals) it may still be some inherent flaw.
willz: 2008-01-14
" Some points- the Choedan Kal is not broken- two of the female access keys are.
"
No. There was a mass suicide on Tremalking by its residents BECAUSE THE STATUE HAD BEEN LIQUEFIED.
There is no longer a female Choedan'kal. The statues, and their link that they were a key to, were very thoroughly decimated, so, while still a good theory, the whole thing is moot.
greatwolf: 2008-01-16
certainly not moot.
there have been suggestions that it may be possible to repair a TA. Of course building one is no longer as impossible as it was first thought. But nknowing what went wrong with the CK may give an idea how difficult it would be.
Davian93: 2008-01-17
From Willz:
****No. There was a mass suicide on Tremalking by its residents BECAUSE THE STATUE HAD BEEN LIQUEFIED.****
Willz is completely right in this statement.
An interesting comment by Moggy comes to mind concerning the CK though:
****"TITLE: Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 35 - With the Choedan Kal
Moghedien was not sure why she had remained this long. There could not be more than two hours of daylight left, and the forest was quiet. Except for the key, she could not feel saidar being channeled anywhere. That was not to say that someone was not using small amounts somewhere, but nothing like the fury that had raged earlier. The battle was over, the other Chosen dead or flying in defeat. Plainly defeat, since the key still blazed in her head. Amazing that the Choedan Kal had survived continuous use for this long, at this level.****
There are two possibilities that spring to mind from this statement. The first is that all sa'angreal become stressed from overuse much like a cannon or naval gun overheating from repeated firing. Or possibility #2: Moggy (who was a spy) knew about inherent flaws in the CK from the time that they were manufactured. I tend to think that all Sa'angrael have useage limits that shouldn't be exceeded without dangerous consequences to the sa'angreal/angreal and/or channeler using them. The theory that perhaps the female CK melted simply because of overheating as it was buried unlike its male counterpart (which Galldrian had conveniently had excavated is a good possibility as well.
Catalyst: 2008-01-21
I'm just answering in haste, so...
Still I will ask: how did the cleansing end? Yeah, the black dome crashed heavily, but what about the Choedan Kal? Did the cleansing end just when the female CK melted? Or did it hold long enough end it melted due to the sudden release? Because I can't imagine it melting inch by inch and still function.
So what?
And about the second access keys: they DO exist, otherwise how do you see Rand attempting an assault all alone with just saidin? I believe such an attack would result in DESTROYING saidin, not simply tainting it. Then who will provide enough saidar and how? Making a circle 100 Asha'man and 1000 Aes Sedai/Wise Ones/Windfinders/Kin? Or using another CK?
B*gger, I can't wait till 2009 AUTUMN. It's so long...
Marie Curie 7: 2008-01-21
Davian:
"Two quick things. There was only one Female Key that melted and secondly the CK had never been used before because the keys were lost during the Breaking and left in Rhuidean. The second female key was the broken statue in the Panarch's palace however that one didn't break from use."
Technically, what we know for sure is only that the Choedan Kal were never tested or used during the War of Power. We really know nothing about what happened to them afterwards. Lews Therin, for example, says they were never tested, but that was because the access keys were lost before the Bore was sealed:
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TITLE: Winter's Heart, CHAPTER: 35 - With the Choedan Kal
"Forgive me, Cadsuane," Kumira broke into the silence, heeling her dapple forward. "Young man, have you considered the possibility of failure? Have you considered the consequences of failure?"
"I must ask the same question," Nesune said sharply. She sat very straight in her saddle, and her dark eyes met Rand's gaze levelly. "By everything I have read, the attempt to use those sa'angreal may result in disaster. Together, they might be strong enough to crack the world like an egg."
Like an egg! Lews Therin agreed. They were never tested, never tried. This is insane! he shrieked. You are mad! Mad!
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Lews Therin would not likely have any knowledge of what happened to the access keys or the Choedan Kal after the Strike. We also know that all the agents for the Light who tried to smuggle the access keys out of enemy territory were captured, but none of them revealed the location of the access keys to the Shadow:
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The Strike at Shayol Ghul
According to the manuscript pages, all of the agents responsible for this smuggling were caught, though that was not known until events had far outrun anyone's plans. They were brave men and women, for although those who were not killed outright were tortured, and though some revealed the purpose of their mission, none betrayed the location of any of the access ter'angreal. Still, the only real result was that the ter'angreal were widely scattered across areas held for the Shadow, their locations and even their existence to remain hidden for millennia.
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We also know that at some point during the Breaking or afterwards, one set of male and female access keys was found and placed in Rhuidean. And at some point, someone also found another female access key, and that was placed in the Panarch's Palace in Tanchico. Did the finders of these access keys attempt to draw Power through the Choedan Kal in order to verify what they were? Maybe. It's also possible, that whoever found the access key that was in the Panarch's Palace tried to use it. Perhaps that's how it was broken, perhaps not - it could also have been broken during the Breaking.
"****No. There was a mass suicide on Tremalking by its residents BECAUSE THE STATUE HAD BEEN LIQUEFIED.****
Willz is completely right in this statement."
Yeah, sure - willz is correct. However, he was replying to a response written in 2003, before Knife of Dreams came out. At that point, there was no confirmation that the female Choedan Kal itself was damaged. We only knew that the access key melted and was broken. The last we knew of the female Choedan Kal at that point was that the hand was glowing:
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TITLE: Winter's Heart, CHAPTER: 35 - With the Choedan Kal
Strolling lost in thought, Timna barely saw the fallow fields that covered all the hillsides but one around her. Tremalking was a large island, and this far from the sea, the wind carried no hint of salt, yet it was the Atha'an Miere that troubled her. They refused the Water Way, yet Timna was one of the Guides chosen to protect them from themselves, if possible. That was very difficult now, with them all in an uproar over this Coramoor of theirs. Very few remained on the island. Even the Governors, always fretting at being away from the sea as the Atha'an Miere did, had set sail to search for him in any craft they could find.
Suddenly the one unplowed hill caught her eye. A great stone hand stuck out of the ground clasping a clear sphere as large as a house. And that sphere was shining like a glorious summer sun.
All thoughts of the Atha'an Miere gone, Timna gathered her cloak and sat down on the ground, smiling to think that she might see the fulfillment of prophecy and the end of Illusion.
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From this we see that there was no indication at all of anything wrong with the female Choedan Kal. And while we knew in Winter's Heart that the female access key was destroyed, that was not necessarily an indication that the Choedan Kal was damaged - it could have just been due to a flaw in the manufacture of the access key or something else. We didn't find out until Knife of Dreams that the female Choedan Kal itself was destroyed:
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TITLE: Knife of Dreams, CHAPTER: 22 - To Make an Anchor Weep
"Poison, Wavemistress." Cemeille replied. She struggled to compose herself, but tears still leaked down her face. "Everywhere I have been, it was the same. They gave their children a poison that put them into a deep sleep from which they did not waken. It seems there was not enough of that to go around, so many of the adults took slower poisons. Some lived long enough to be found and tell the tale. The Great Hand on Tremalking melted. The hill where it stood reportedly is now a deep hollow. It seems the Amayar had prophecies that spoke of the Hand, and when it was destroyed, they believed this signaled the end of time, what they called the end of Illusion. They believed it was time for them to leave this… this illusion" - she laughed the word bitterly - "we call the world."
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~shrug~ I just wanted to point out that it would probably be appropriate to take into account the context and timeframe of previous comments when posting replies. The original poster of that comment, Elder Haman, would not have known at the time that the female Choedan Kal was destroyed, though maybe he shouldn't have been so certain in his statement that the female Choedan Kal was not broken, since we didn't know its status back in 2003.
AK-Edge: 2008-01-28
I think that perhaps the reason the female key melted and the male didn't is because of Nynaeve and Rand's power differences.
Picture the keys as metaphorical 'levers', and the CK as metaphorical 'rocks'.
If you push on the very end of a lever, it puts more stress on the lever, but makes the rock easier to move.
If you're strong enough, however, you can push closer to the fulcrum, creating less stress on the lever, but still moving the rock.
Since Rand is stronger than Nynaeve, he only had to amplify his power a certain amount, therefore not stressing the key too much.
Nynaeve, on the other hand, had to stress the key a lot more to match Rand.
Does that make sense to anyone else? Or am I imagining things?
Marie Curie 7: 2008-02-01
AK-Edge:
"I think that perhaps the reason the female key melted and the male didn't is because of Nynaeve and Rand's power differences.
. . . .
Since Rand is stronger than Nynaeve, he only had to amplify his power a certain amount, therefore not stressing the key too much.
Nynaeve, on the other hand, had to stress the key a lot more to match Rand."
One of the problems with that idea is that far less saidar was used than saidin at the Cleansing:
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TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight, CHAPTER: 19 - Surprises
Nisain smoothed her dark woolen skirts nervously and cleared her throat. A gangly Gray with a strong chin and startlingly blue eyes, she had some small repute in matters of law and treaties, but she was obviously uneasy about speaking before the Hall. She looked straight at Egwene with the air of someone who did not want to actually see all the Sitters assembled. "Given the amount of saidar used there, Mother, it was no surprise to find the residues near as thick as the snow." More than a hint of Murandy clung to her tongue, a lilting sound. "Even after so long, I should have been able to grasp some idea of what was woven, if it was at all like anything I'm familiar with, but I have none. I could all but trace the weave, Mother, and it made no sense at all. None. In fact, it seemed so alien, it might not have been..." Clearing her throat again, she swallowed. Her face grew a little paler. "It might not have been woven by a woman. We thought it must have been the Forsaken, of course, so I tested for resonance. We all did." Half-turning to gesture to her companions, she hurriedly turned back. She definitely preferred looking at Egwene to the Sitters, all leaning forward intently. "I can't say what was done, beyond scooping three miles out of the earth, or how it was done, but saidin was definitely used, too. The resonance was so strong, we should have been able to smell it. There was more saidin used than saidar, much more, Dragonmount beside a foothill. And that is all I can say, Mother." A sound fluttered through the pavilion, the sound of sisters letting out the breath they had been holding. Sheriam's exhalation seemed the loudest, but perhaps that was just because she was nearest.
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