hy the chosen are called the chosen.
by Rand-althor: 2003-05-31 | Not yet rated
The foraken, are called chosen by each other and darkfriends. But why would they be called the chosen, as opposed to anything else? I think that they are called the chosen for one simple reason. They were chosen to turn LTT against his will, to the shadow. Think about it, a good number of them have reasons to want him gone, Lanfear wants him in the shadow, so he leaves Illeyna and goes to her, Demandred probably had hopes of being above him.
Now there are a few things to help this theory. First is the number. 13 Chosen, 13 fades, and you can turn someone to the shadow. That could be circumstancial though.
The next is the fact that they were all there when LTT sealed the bore. I think there is one of 2 reasons for this, either they knew what was coming, and hoped to turn him while he was distracted by placing the seals, or they were meeting to plan his turning. I mean think about it, we have never seen more than half the chosen together at one time, yet by coincedence, they all happened to be in the right place at the right time to be captured in the bore.
I guess this pretty much wraps up the theory, I had other things, but I cant remember them, so ill try to, and post them as responses if this gets posted.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2003-06-03
Well, there were more than 13 Forsaken, but only 13 were sealed, probably the top 13. It is a fun idea, but the DO getting LTT doesn't assure him of victory. In essence, the Forsaken exist as a command structure and to seed chaos. They were called Chosen by the DO, but I don't know that it ever had to do with LTT...you will probably have to find more evidence.
2
Great Lord of the Dark: 2003-06-03
Shadow Rising CHAPTER: 9 - Decisions
"We call ourselves the Chosen," she said calmly. "Chosen to rule the world forever. We will live forever. You can, also."
I thought there was a second quote like this, but I can't find it. Still, this is fairly straightforward. Your thoughts about the 13 being at Shayol Ghul when the Bore was sealed because they wanted to strike at Lews Therin is good, though Lews brought an extra 100 or so channelers with him, which makes very poor odds for the Chosen.
3
Caracarn: 2003-06-03
I think that the Forsaken are called the Chosen just for the fact that the DO chose them above all others to lead his armies
4
Callandor: 2003-06-03
GLotD hit it on the head. Those chosen to rule the world forever.
There were a lot more then 13 Forsaken, but only the 13 survived because they were the strongest channelers and more devious. They schemed and planned against LTT as much as against themselves. The top 13 were called by the DO to a meeting when the Bore was sealed and them inside.
5
Rand alThor15: 2003-06-04
I agree with myself (caracarn) and disagree with my other self (Rand-althor). the Chosen are just generals, very powerful generals, very very very powerful generals.
that's all i wanted to say, thank you.
6
Shadow Bane: 2003-06-09
I would say the chosen are called the chosen because the Dark One chose them to lead and impart his commands, but while reading this a thought occured to me, all of the Chosen can channel. No chosen we know of was a nonchanneler. Maybe they are called the Chosen because they are chosen by fate and the Dark One to weild the one power and the True Power? Just a thought.
7
spearmaiden: 2003-07-30
In the recent RJ interview on dragonmount (from the netherlands I think?) he said that the Chosen are the people the DO personally selected as those that were strong enough to be able to make the physical journey to Shayol Ghul to swear their oaths to him. So the Chosen are called "Chosen" because the DO chose them out of the whole sea of darkfriends, because of their strength, to be the ones personally connected to him.
8
meradin: 2003-08-09
Tamyrlin, there are only 13 chosen... there are more darkfriends that can channel... but there are only 13 chosen, if you read "Strike at Shayol Ghoul" sp?... a short story written by Jordan, he states that all of the forsaken were present. And, well... DUH! they're called the chosen because... this is a hard one... THEY WERE CHOSEN BY THE DARK ONE.
9
Tamyrlin: 2003-08-09
Meradin, Jordan has stated that there were many more Forsaken than the 13 we know. Thirteen were chosen as his top aides, and those were sealed away, and the rest were killed in the Breaking. I don't have time to find that quote, but I am sure Callandor or someone else will be along shortly to provide it. :)
10
Anubis: 2003-08-09
yeah, callandor is the best. (insert gracious thankes for the NUMEROUS quotes callandor has provided just me specificly)
anyways, i always thought that there were only 13 forsaken at one time. people got promotions as the dark ones "suspicion" or just normal channelers, killed them off.
11
Callandor: 2003-08-09
BWB page 49:
**Though other Aes Sedai went over to the Shadow, none who equaled or approached in strength those now called Forsaken was still alive by the last year of the War of Power; yet not one of them is reported to have died by enemy action.**
Need anymore proof there was more then 13?
12
Meradin: 2003-08-10
and I quote "By chance, all thirteen of the Forsaken were at Shayol Ghul (perhaps summonded for a conference with the Dark One?)" - Robert Jordan, The Strike at Shayol Ghoul
13
Mairashda: 2003-08-10
while not every channeler who went over to serve the dark one was one of the chosen, there were more chosen than the 13 who got themselves (partly) sealed: "you have been given distinction greater than you know" moghedien says to moridin after she spots the saa within his eyes. "only twenty-nine others have ever been granted-"
14
Anubis: 2003-08-10
so its either one of 2 things.
1. there are 13 forsaken/chosen job openings, and when the dark one, or another forsaken/chosen kills one off, someone new is... promoted.
2. If your good enough, you are a forsaken/chosen. There were 29 (or somthing like that) chosen total, and by the end of the war of power that number had dwindeled down to 13.
15
Rhodric: 2003-08-10
i vote for number 1 on that list. it fits well with all the other 13s.
16
Aelfinn: 2003-12-15
But why doesn't the Dark One get more Forsaken? It's statistically unlikely that all the non-Forsaken super-chanellers (read Nynaeve, Alivia, Taim, so on) all walk in the Light (or at least try to).
For sake of arguement I'm assuming that being turned by 13x13 destroys something of the person, whether OP strength, free will, intelligence, or health. A Forsaken needs to be a strong chaneller, able to think intelligently for themself, and reasonably healthy. (After all, can't just call for a Yellow every time the Forsaken wants to get up, can they? ;) ) Then, being turned wouldn't work for new Forsaken, so they neeed to find DFs strong in OP. There has to be some, so why aren't there any others now?
17
Cor Shan: 2003-12-15
Is SaSG written from a historians POV?? If it was, it is screwed up, as RLanders forgot about all but the thirteen Forsaken.
18
Callandor: 2003-12-16
** If it was, it is screwed up, as RLanders forgot about all but the thirteen Forsaken.**
No, Randlanders know the Forsaken as 13 of the most powerful Aes Sedai ever that went over to the DO, which is most likely correct (who knows if they were the strongest).
19
mako0424: 2003-12-24
I am very interested in this thought that they were more than 13 original Forsaken but the quote Callandor posted sounded more like that there were many strong channelers, but the top 13 were the Forsaken (the ones we know now), as far as i see there have only ever been 13. Whether the same 13 seems true to me, because we know they all pledged to the Dark One early on during the War.
But the only point that disporves this is the only 29 others have been granted use of True Power. And it seems that not all Forsaken had this ability, and even if they did, it leaves an unaccounted for 16 True source users, who were they Dreadlords, or lucky darkfriends granted a gift of special importance and a weapon. But i don't know myself, just asking questions
20
Khaos: 2004-02-09
I think its very likely that being granted permission to use the true power was a reward for becoming on of the chosen or perhaps the very definition of being one of the chosen. Thus there have been a total of 29 Chosen.
21
ijokewaytoomuch: 2006-03-11
i find it hard to believe that there are only a few less female chosen when it is made clear that male channerlers were stronger in the power in the age of legends i also think that it makes no sense that in the marvelous age of legends one of the strongest female channerlers (moghedian)was defeated easily by a 22 year old channerler (nyneave). it makes me think that the "chosen" are
becoming less and less impressive exspecially since there are channelers emerging that aer alot stronger than nynaeve
22
Callandor: 2006-03-11
**one of the strongest female channerlers (moghedian)was defeated easily by a 22 year old channerler (nyneave). it makes me think that the "chosen" are**
Moghedien really is on the lower end of Forsaken strength. Nynaeve was 26, btw, if that makes any difference; really shouldn't since age only partially matters for experience, and Nynaeve defeated Moghedien more due to strength.
**becoming less and less impressive exspecially since there are channelers emerging that aer alot stronger than nynaeve**
They're still impressive, it's just showing that they're not the unique demi-gods they like to think that they are. The 3rd Agers have their own impressive channelers; however, the Forsaken do have what would be considered a vast degree of better knowledge. Gaps in some, 3rd Agers know a few things better and some the Forsaken even don't, but overall much better knowledge.
23
Paddy: 2006-03-12
Well as for many people being stronger now, they're still not as well trained as a chosen would be.
This is shown by Moghedian managing to break out from being shielded (with a soft tie, instead of the hard ties Rand broke out from) and being bound.
24
Ishamael666: 2006-03-12
The reason none of the "3rd Age super-channelers" have been Chosen is due to the Dark One's bias against 3rd Agers.
Robert Jordan said in an interview:
"Question: What does the Dark One view as the worst punishment he can inflict on his minions: Killing them as painfully as possible? Balefire? Mindtrap? Being continually resurrected to suffer at his hand for eternity? Something we haven't seen yet?
Robert Jordan Answers: The Dark One doesn't care about his minions sufficiently to invest much time in their punishment except as it serves to correct their behavior or as object lesson to others, nor is there much in the way of gradation. Simple failure and outright betrayal might be punished equally, or one might result in death and the other in becoming an object lesson or in something else. (The mindtrap, by the way, could be called an object lesson only to the one so trapped; remember, none of the Forsaken know who is mindtrapped except Moridin and those who are trapped.) The decision, death or object lesson or something else, normally would be simply a matter of whether or not he believed there was any point to an object lesson and/or whether or not he felt there was really any further use in the individual. Or, for that matter, made for reasons unknowable to a human mind. Remember, the Dark One is NOT human and thinking of him in human terms just doesn't work.
But he also operates under a constraint that did not exist in the Age of Legends. At that time, about 3% of the population could learn to channel to some extent, though not all chose to -- the training program took time, and being able to channel carried with it certain obligations that not everyone wanted to undertake -- but that still meant there were, at a minimum, hundreds of thousands of people in the world who could channel, and more likely millions. A large pool of possible recruits. Break a tool or decide it isn't working right and throw it out, because there is an endless supply of similar tools waiting on the shelf. That might be said to have been his attitude. In the here-and-now of the books, that figure is about 1%, and of that 1%, very, very few have any idea that they could learn to channel, much less have any training at all. Here-and-now, the pool of possible recruits is tiny.
Also, while the Forsaken themselves have realized that these primitives have discovered how to do things with the Power that they themselves cannot, or perhaps can once they learn how but never dreamed of doing until they found that the weaves existed here-and-now, they still think of people in the here-and-now as primitives, and their attitudes filter through to the Dark One, who believes that his people from the age of Legends are in all practical ways better -- for which read better trained, more capable, and thus better able to serve him efficiently and effectively -- than the people of the present time. And he is right. In a way. They are certainly better trained, with a much wider knowledge, at least in some areas. Some of their skills are absolutely useless in the society they are forced to live in. Aginor was a genius in biology and genetics, but in this world, he had no way to make the tools to make the tools to make the tools…. Well, you get the idea. Pity the poor chip designer dropped into the seventeenth century.
In any event, the Dark One tries to conserve his resources, using and reusing those he might have killed himself, or ordered killed, in a time where there were thousands to equal them."
