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rtur Hawkwing's knowledge
by WinespringBrother: 2003-08-11 | Not yet rated
Previous Categories: Miscellaneous Theories
Quoted from the BWB:
"In early summer of Free Year 994, Artur Hawkwing was stricken by a sudden illness and went into a precipitous decline. For much of the next month he was fever-ridden and delirious, often shouting for his sword, Justice. According to several sources, he frequently spoke as if Amaline or Tamika or both were in the room. His last words were addressed to them. “I cannot come, yet. The work is not done. The battle is still to be fought."
I think that is the Last Battle, Tarmon Gai'don, that he is referring to, and that he knew that he was a Hero of the Horn, and not just a run of the mill mortal.
Thoughts?
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2003-08-13
Hey WSB, good to see you posting some theories. You make an interesting point. He is a Hero of the Horn...and it makes you wonder if he somehow had the illness that Rand has, a breaking down of the barriers between personalities...and I find it interesting that we know Ishamael was there at that time, right? I always believed that Ishamael was responsible for his sickness and for his refusal of Aes Sedai help. But, I wonder if Ishamael did something to cause the breakdown?
solomonrex: 2003-08-13
Or was he passing into TAR slowly, so he actually was talking to them. Could he be referring to going to TAR to join the heroes (and fight TG) instead of joining Amalin and Tamika in the much-speculated 'other' soul pool?
Good idea about Ishy causing the illness, Tam.
rubbernilly: 2003-08-13
Or is it a ta'veren sickness?
Rand/the Dragon is and always will be the strongest.
Artur Hawkwing, in his day, was considered the second most powerful ta'veren. Since Rand is the only soul repeatedly born into the pattern for a specific purpose (and not for the general need the pattern has of a hero), I don't know that we can conclude that AH's previous or future incarnations would be as ta'veren as he was as the high General. However, for that particular incarnation as Artur Hawkwing, he was a VERY powerful ta'veren.
Perhaps that is part of the trouble he and Rand are having? At some point becoming too much ta'veren stresses the division between lives?
Just pulling connections out of my butt over here.
Makes you wonder about Perrin's throwback ability (wolf-speak) as a somewhat lesser ta'veren, and on that same level Mat's knowledge of the old tongue even before the Shadar Logoth dagger. They were both ta'veren, and exhibit strange abilities that tie into the past. Perhaps for Rand and Hawkwing this went further yet.
Great Lord of the Dark: 2003-08-13
Or if Ishy and Hawkwing were concocting some other badness betweeen them, in preparation for the Last Battle.
Callandor: 2003-08-13
Ishy was a consultant really to Hawkwing during his ruling as the High King. He made Hawkwing send his son to Seanchan and made Hawkwing turn on the Aes Sedai. If you have the BWB, read pages 114 and 115 in there. It's really obvious that it is Ishy.
Friar: 2003-08-14
I am not sure of this. We have had references to the fever of Rands father Taim, talking to people, (his wife and others), "as if they were still there" e.g. living an old memory, and we attribute it to be due to the fever. But along the same lines there is no evidence to the contrary only that at that he was for years in one battle after another untill his eventual death. With the lack of evidence it is more of a guess then a theory, however new and origional.
As for suddeness of the illness I concure with Tam: that it was Ishamael for exactly the reasons that were explained.
To the responce of a ta'veren sickness, it is posible and worth some debate. For me the heroes (ta'veren or not) are born with no knowledge of their past lives even Hawking himself. It is the taint that has been argued to break down the barriers but Arther could not channel. As for Mat the memories were of others but they were not his re-incarnations. Only the memories of others. Thus I think it is possible but not probable. I for one would be willing to listen to all you guys on this.
rubbernilly: 2003-08-14
I didn't want to muddy the waters with Mat's memories given to him by the Finn. Those are clearly not the result of any sort of ta'veren-ess. I was specifically referring to his speaking the old tongue even before reaching Shadar Logoth... the sorts of things that Moirain comments on saying that the old blood of manetheren runs strongly in emond's field and in Mat.
I think it may run more strongly in Mat - strongly enough to ellicit this sort of ability in him - because of his ta'veren-ess.
SDog: 2003-08-14
If Hawkwing was talking to his wives, telling them that he could not come...where were they? Let's assume HW was going to TAR to join the Heroes, and that's why he "could not come." Come where?
Anubis: 2003-08-15
artur hawkwings dream was that of a unified land with no aes sedai... the battle is the seige of tar valon. the work is unifing all the world. i thought this was pretty plain...
WinespringBrother: 2003-08-15
Presumably, SD, there is a segregation of souls in the after life, heroes and non-heroes, and his wives fall in the latter category. So he is saying he can't join them in non-hero land until the Last Battle is fought.
Calebman: 2003-08-15
How can moridin make such a big difference in the world without being a ta'veeren. just food for thought.
Tyr: 2003-08-16
How do we know for sure the Ishy isn't ta'veren? Has any Ta'veren sensing Aes Sedai been close enough to tell in the present age?
If it were that your were born Ta'veren wouldn't everyone in AOL know that Lew Therin was destined to do something amazing, and if his "ta'vereness' is so strong why wouldn't everyone follow something close to a miracle maker...Perhaps he "grew" into it...
Also...how many heros of the horn are there? i dont know, but lets say 150.
At the dawn of time were 150 souls chosen to become Heros? Or have those 150 progressively become heros? After their becoming, they are put into the "hero soul pool", and forever respu n into there Heroly positioned? Then again, what guide lines are there for getting into the select "hero soul pool", and even if the 150 were chosen at the dawn of time, what thought went into that? Isnt it possible that new heros can be chosen, and even, say, Perrin may become one? Be forever known as Perrin the Wolf...or Mat maybe...whatever...I am posing a question as to "What sperated the Heros from the everday Shmuck...and are the heros predetermined?...
If you know the answers, post em...
Or ponder....
Pardon me while I go try and make the dizziness I am now experiencing go away...
WinespringBrother: 2003-08-16
Great Hunt CHAPTER: 47 - The Grave Is No Bar to My Call
Artur Hawkwing clapped the sniffer on the shoulder. "Sometimes the Wheel adds to our number, friend. Perhaps you will find yourself among us, one day." Hurin sat up as if he had been offered a crown. Hawkwing bowed formally from his saddle to Rand. "With your permission . . . Lord Rand. Trumpeter, will you give us music on the Horn? Fitting that the Horn of Valere should sing us into battle. Bannerman, will you advance?"
Hope that helps, Tyr.
Callandor: 2003-08-16
**If it were that your were born Ta'veren wouldn't everyone in AOL know that Lew Therin was destined to do something amazing, and if his "ta'vereness' is so strong why wouldn't everyone follow something close to a miracle maker...Perhaps he "grew" into it...**
Using Rand as an example, a ta'veren isn't born the strongest ever right then and there, it comes of a time and it holds there, can be a week or years.
TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 36 - Web of the Pattern
"Yes, that's it. But sometimes the change chooses you, or the Wheel chooses it for you. And sometimes the Wheel bends a life-thread, or several threads, in such a way that all the surrounding threads are forced to swirl around it, and those force other threads, and those still others, and on and on. That first bending to make the Web, that is ta'veren, and there is nothing you can do to change it, not until the Pattern itself changes. The Web - ta'maral'ailen, it's called - can last for weeks, or for years. It can take in a town, or even the whole Pattern. Artur Hawkwing was ta'veren. So was Lews Therin Kinslayer, for that matter, I suppose." He let out a booming chuckle. "Elder Haman would be proud of me. He always droned on, and the books about traveling were much more interesting, but I did listen sometimes."**
As to the others, yes, Heroes are added as time goes along. Were there any in the beginning? I have no clue but most likely so ;). Ask RJ.
juitzhead: 2003-08-17
My thought's on ta'veren is that it is something it is a tool that the wheel uses to correct events in the pattern. Doesn't really matter what side the person represents.
There are a little more than a hundred Heroes. (TGH)
Heroes are chosen by the pattern when a person does something above and beyond the normal heroics. I don't think they were necessarily chosen at the dawn of time and as HW put it to Hurin, “sometime's the wheel adds to our numbers”. So Perrin and Mat can perhaps become Heroes.
just a further point to ask, which i cant find, but i know it has been discussed: Is LTT considered to be a Hero of the Horn?
There are several references that would support this. Can someone point me to the appropriate thread?
Rhodric: 2003-08-17
**How can moridin make such a big difference in the world without being a ta'veeren. just food for thought. **
have any forsaken mentioned the ta'veren effect? i thought this might be a distinctly 3rd age philosophy.
Ishy may be ta'veren but he may just be an overly manipulative schmoe. just because he pulls the strings doesn't necessarily mean he's ta'veren
Callandor: 2003-08-18
**Is LTT considered to be a Hero of the Horn?**
Yes RJ has said Rand/LTT/the Dragon is a Hero of the Horn.
Callandor: 2003-08-19
Post-TPOD interview:
** Q:"Is this soul[the Dragon's soul] born in any other age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as The Dragon/TDR?"
A: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age.**
Rhodric: 2003-08-19
NITPICK!!!
that doesn't say that the soul is born in EVERY age. it could skip one or two (due to some persons 'need' idea, the dragon soul aint born unless the DO is free to fight - maybe).
Someshta: 2003-08-19
What disturbes me about this whole topic is that noone mentioned one thing: Isn't it a possibility that Mat, Perrin, and Rand are all Heroes?
And...I'd also like to point this out...everyone says that all male channelers are connected to their past lives (riencarnations) but what about the guys who dont hear voices? I remember mention of a guy who, on his second day channeling, thought there were spiders under his skin...
just a thought...
Rhodric: 2003-08-19
if Mat and Perrin were heroes then the Heroes of the Horn would have greeted them at Falme as old friends and enemies. much like Hawkwing and Birgitte greeted Rand/Lews Therin.
Callandor: 2003-08-19
If the Heroes are a corrective measures, why wouldn't the Dragon be born at least once every Age?
Yes, Rand is a Hero. Mat and Perrin are thought to be Heroes that will be added (IE: New Heroes of the Horn).
It's thought that the taint breaks down the barriers that seperate the souls previous life with it's current, and that makes the voices. Weather it happens to everyone, or just to Rand, we have no clue.
Callandor: 2003-08-20
**Just wondering, if mat were to sound the Horn, what would happen to birgitte?**
Nothing at all. She was removed from TAR. Now if she dies and the Horn is sounded... flip a coin ;). But to me, she has to do something big and be able to return to the ranks of the Heroes. But, since she should at least take place in the Last Battle, it shouldn't be too difficult.
SDog: 2003-08-20
Well, let's be fair.
Not everyone thinks Mat and Perrin will be or ever were Heroes. I'm one who believes that not all ta'veren will automatically be Heroes of the Horn.
Furthermore, not everyone believes the Taint Degradation theory. There's really no proof for it whatsoever. Sure, Cadsuane mentioned that some men hear voices, and Rand talks to someone that could be LTT...but that's hardly conclusive.
juitzhead: 2003-08-20
Callandor said: "If the Heroes are a corrective measures, why wouldn't the Dragon be born at least once every Age?"
i think you answered that in your previous post with the RJ transcript.
Perhaps the ta'veren/hero chosen by the pattern to be born in that age is dependent on how strong the correction required is.
Say for a small correction, send in Rogosh Eagle-eye.
For a huge correction, HW or Rand.
For the LB - Rand.
For the end of an age, the twins (cant remember their names).
So, ta'veren/heroes, are used as tools by the pattern, and you need the right tool for the right job. ;)
Someshta: 2003-08-21
But thats what im saying. If Mat and Perrin were to be added, wouldn't that go against the idea of a wheel (ever-repeating), wouldn't it be impossible for something to be added? unless of course, Mat and Perrin are removed from being heroes of the horn later on...
Flinn: 2003-08-21
It seems to me, and I may be wrong, that all the hero's are without *powers*. None are channelers, ogier, wolf bros., etc. That rules out mat(memories) and perrin(wb). They all became hero's by being ordinary people doing extraordinary things.
Shadow Bane: 2003-08-22
every age is a little different. I dont see any reason why Mat and Perrin couldn't be new. That just adds some significance to the story. Otherwise the story would be like every other turning
SDog: 2003-08-22
Someshta, it could be that the Wheel adds to its number as needed. The Pattern repeats itself, to a large extent, with every turning. But the Wheel will do whatever it needs to do to keep itself in balance. I think you could say that the Wheel and Pattern are free from the restrictions you're putting on them.
Alternately, and this will probably be controversial, the Wheel adds to its number until it has enough of the right people to win the Last Battle. That would indicate that there is one Last Battle, at some point, that will determine the fate of the Wheel and Pattern.
moridin68: 2003-08-22
SDog: I haven't seen it stated anywhere that the Wheel was trying to win the LB. Actually, if I rememeber correctly, Perrin was disabused of this idea by Moiraine in tDR. She actually told him the the Creator is good, the DO evil, and that the pattern in and of itself is neither.
Other than that thought, I think that this is a good theory. I never looked at that possiblity before.
Anubis: 2003-08-31
the dark one and the creator are outside the pattern, and influence teh pattern. so we would not be seeing the exact same events. also, if you read the great hunt, artur hawkwing says that the wheel sometimes adds to the heroes numbers.
heronblade: 2003-09-01
i've been thinking about this and couldn't he just be talking about his own mortality and the battle with the dark in THIS incarnation? there is no evidence that there is any prior knowlegde of the souls 'status' during life exept in the instance of rand.
Ashaman Grady: 2003-09-02
Of course, he could simply have been delirious with fever, hallucinating, etc.
Hawkwing apparently was obsessed with building an empire. Although he controlled the Westlands (at least...I think he also controlled some lands to the east of the Aiel Waste), there must have been somewhere that he didn't rule.
Rhodric: 2003-09-03
hawkwing didn't rule shara or aiel waste, only the lands west of the dragonwall. and there was one place he did not rule in the westlands: Tar Valon. so he was mumbling because he wanted to consolidate his empire by taking down the 'witches'.
i don't think he was talking to anyone at all except fever-induced hallucinations of his wife(s).
Zepher: 2003-10-05
I believe that Ishamael was resposible for Hawkwing's delusions and why he refused Aei Sedi help. (spelling?)
Anyways, Ishamael was not fully trapped in the Bore and wreaked havok on the world for nearly three thousand years as the Heart of the Dark. He controled the Black Ajah and the darkfriend networks as well.
Zader: 2004-06-23
Is there a possibility Arthur Hawkwing could channel. The illness may have been derived from not channelling. Similar to Rand's alternate realities when using the Portal Stone to Falme TGH. AH may have had a suspision of this and this may account for his absolute distrust of Aes Sedai. Bonwhin was Amyrlin at the time. Although Amyrlin of all ajah. Bonwhin was from Red. Bonwhin and AH seem to have developed some amosity toward each other. After AH's 1st wife + 3 remaining children were poisoned FY 961 - 965 known as the Black Years and the Years of Silent Rage. AH lived to be 82 and that might be stretching it about him being able to channell but in COT Rand is staying at Algarin's, who I get the impression is aged. All his children are married, those that still live. Algarin wants to be tested. Just a theory but worth running up the flag pole.
Davian93: 2004-06-24
**** Is there a possibility Arthur Hawkwing could channel. The illness may have been derived from not channelling. Similar to Rand's alternate realities when using the Portal Stone to Falme TGH****
No, you said it yourself. AH was 82 when he died and showed no wasting disease. It is possible that he had the ability to be trained to channel, but we would never know that. As for being able to channel and have it inborn with the spark...no that is impossible.
Brendan Reborn: 2004-06-25
Zader, I was considering the same thing, but i'm sure it is not true. Has anyone thought along the lines of "what if hawking was the dragon reborn?" I mean, RJ has said that LTT has been reborn as a non-dragon reincarnatin, maybe Hawking was one of these, hence a strong ta'veren, just couldn't channel, or it wasn't the dragon's "time" . I don't beleive it, i'm just putting it out there.
Zader: 2004-06-27
Re further to could AH channel
After further study. TEOTW Prologue “Let the arm of the Lord of Dawn shelter us from the Dark, and the great sword of justice defend us”(from Charal Drianaan te Calamon, The Cycle of the Dragon.
Author unknown the Fourth Age)
Hawkwing called his sword justice. There were 24 False Dragons, not 16 as commonly known.
Could Hawkwing have been a False Dragon.
Callandor: 2004-06-27
**Is there a possibility Arthur Hawkwing could channel.**
If he could, he was a learner. If he was a sparker, at age 30 he would have, and history would've been a little different. If he's a learner, it makes no difference at all. He hasn't touched saidin yet, so there is no disease to effect him. Sparker's wasting sickness is out because he would've died at around age 30 then.
Personally, I don't think Artur Hawkwing could either learn to channel, and he definately wasn't a sparker.
**AH may have had a suspision of this and this may account for his absolute distrust of Aes Sedai.**
His distrust is laid at the feet of Ishamael. Artur Hawkwing was quite an ally of the Aes Sedai, and for a long time he had no problem with them. Once Ishamael entered his court, he laid siege and put bouties on their heads.
**AH lived to be 82 and that might be stretching it about him being able to channell but in COT Rand is staying at Algarin's, who I get the impression is aged. All his children are married, those that still live. Algarin wants to be tested. Just a theory but worth running up the flag pole.**
And Damer Flinn was in his 60's before he became an Asha'man. Age makes no difference whatsoever for learners. Only them. Sparkers on the other hand, age plays a factor.
In Seanchan, where no sparker, absolutly none, are uncaught, the cut off point is age 25. That is the maximum time when a sparker, sparks. Generally, it appears to be about 18 or 19.
If Hawkwing was a sparker, he would've sparked way before his death, way before his rise to power really, and it would've been mentioned or remarked upon his channeling, not to mention his eventual insanity.
If he was a learner, then you got nothing. He hasn't touched saidin, no way he would start channeling or get any of the diseases assocaitated with sparkers.
If he couldn't channel... well, you know that answer ;).
Ablar: 2004-06-30
I have to say, that, although, with RJ you have to read deeply into things, I think that this was just AH saying that he was not ready to die, and that he wants to go on fighting his cause, it is mentioned right at the start of the series, and I don't think it has any real significance...
Davian93: 2004-06-30
****Has anyone thought along the lines of "what if hawking was the dragon reborn?" I mean, RJ has said that LTT has been reborn as a non-dragon reincarnatin, maybe Hawking was one of these, hence a strong ta'veren, just couldn't channel, or it wasn't the dragon's "time" . I don't beleive it, i'm just putting it out there. ****
Impossible. Hawkwing and LTT are clearly separate souls. Look no further than when Mat blew the Horn. Hawkwing appears and Rand is there. If it was the same soul this wouldnt happen.
Callandor: 2004-07-01
**Has anyone thought along the lines of "what if hawking was the dragon reborn?"**
How could he? Hawkwing is a seperate Hero.
charliec: 2004-07-01
Hawkwing as the Dragon? no can do I'm afraid Brendan... back to that scene where the Horn gets blown, Hawkwing turns up, and converses with Rand as a sepatate entity...