he Lady of Chaos
by WinespringBrother: 2003-11-23 | 4 out of 10 (4 votes)
"Lord of Chaos Prologue - The First Message
"Still Demandred kept silent, stood there studying them. No, not Graendal. Semirhage and her. And when he did speak, half to himself, it was to they two. "When I think where you two have placed yourselves, I wonder. How much has the Great Lord known, for how long? How much of what has happened has been at his design all along?" There was no answer to that. Finally, he said, "You want to know what the Great Lord told me? Very well. But it stays here, held close. Since Sammael chose to stay away, he learns nothing. Nor do the others, whether alive or dead. The first part of the Great Lord's message was simple. 'Let the Lord of Chaos rule.' His words, exact." The corners of his mouth twitched, as close to a smile as Mesaana had ever seen from him. Then he told them the rest."
"Lord of Chaos Prologue - The First Message
"Mesaana found herself shivering and did not know whether she did so from excitement or fear. It could work; it could hand them everything. But it required luck, and gambling made her uncomfortable. Demandred was the gambler. He was right about one thing; Lews Therin had made his own luck as a mint made coin. In her opinion it seemed that so far Rand al'Thor did the same."
According to the BWB, the "Lord/Lady of Chaos" is someone normally foolish who is chosen to rule on the Feast of Fools, and everyone has to obey that person's orders. It seems their orders are to select a new ruler, perhaps to be a puppet of the Shadow, to help promote their ultimate plans, which would certainly be a gamble if the person turned out to be more independent than they planned on. What person was picked to be a powerful ruler in LOC? The new Amyrlin Seat, Egwene of course, a lowly accepted and a teenager, who could be easily manipulated by her new Keeper, Sheriam (who is probably Black Ajah).
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1
Tamyrlin: 2003-11-26
Nice. Egwene. What would you then say that they are gambling? What do they hope to win? What can Sheriam accomplish through her fool/puppet? Mesanna works well with your idea, that her placement would excite/surprise Demandred makes sense. So, keep digging. If you are right, this would be fun. Can you prove that Mesanna is meddling with Egwene's camp, specifically Sheriam? There has to be more clues to find, with this in mind. I think Egwene is a good possibility for the puppet they had in mind to support. Once again, original and intriguing.
2
Callandor: 2003-11-26
Interesting.
**What would you then say that they are gambling?**
I can think of a few: will the Aes Sedai stay split or will she be able to bring them back together in time? Will she go along with any of our plans, or will she discover the hidden Forsaken in their camp? Will she purge all their "secret" followers (Black Ajah) and leave them useless? Will she gain total control or give right in and submit into the Tower and again force the Aes Sedai back together? Will she keep them more and more apart?
3
WinespringBrother: 2003-11-26
Well, it is generally accepted that Mesaana is embedded in the White Tower, however it is not 100% proven, given the difficulty of impersonating an Aes Sedai. It's possible that she is with the rebels and traveling back and forth, working double shifts to keep the Shadow's plans on track. As for identifying Mesaana's alter ego, that is enough for a theory of its own :)
As for the gambling aspect, it would require Demandred to rely on a lowly Black sister to pull the strings, which is less reliable than doing the work yourself, and it may not pay off, considering Sheriam's conduct and recent track record. Egwene for the most part has all the Ajahs united behind her, unlike Elaida and the White Tower, where the Ajahs are at each others throats. And if Egwene is the target, they have obviously some long range plan which could work or fail due to countless unforeseen variables. But that the Shadow has some heavy duty plotting in the rebel camp is beyond doubt. My thought is that their primary objective is to keep the rebels as a separate faction, and a very powerful one at that, under the thumb of the Shadow through Halima and not allied with the White Tower or Black Tower which Egwene is trying to accomplish. Choosing Egwene instead of Sheriam for example could complicate things for the Shadow. All the Chaos in Randland is primarily due to the many factions battling with one another or at least not trusting each other/knowing each other's allegiances, so that they are not united against the Shadow before The Last Battle.
4
HermesApollo: 2003-11-27
When you look at it who has caused more chaos to the, well, accepted world order of the aes sedai then Egwene and the little scooby squad that follows her around? The fact that one of the main points that wanted to change about the aes sedai was that of the three oaths, something that has probably kept more order than anything else that the AS have done as not being able to lie, although open to verbal squirming, means that AS should be able to be, dare i say, trusted, unless of course they are Black ajah. This recalling of the three oaths was only stopped by Siuan, who seems to be a bit of a wild card for the forces of good that are fighting for rand land. I also don't think sheriam is BA, more of a puppet controlled by one of the BA or Forsaken.
5
Great Lord of the Dark: 2003-11-27
Demandred's words "Have I not done well?" imply he had a hand in some event of LoC. It would be required to assume he was involved with Egwene somehow, which is possible, since Semirhage, his sometimes ally, has a hand in setting up Aran'gar in the Salidar camp. Where things break down is taht Aran'gar and Semirhage aren't supposed to know of each other. In fact most Forsaken don't know what their fellow Forsaken are up to, nor that dead Forsaken have returned until at least Book 8. By Book 9 they all know of each other, which really bugs me, since their unification is not shown, just presented. Conclusion: It's difficult to pinpoint cooperation at this stage of the series since we are led to believe there can't be any, yet three books later we are shown taht it may have been going on all along. Good luck.
6
free will: 2003-11-27
It's amazing how much of what you say applies to Elaida and Alviarin (who we KNOW is Black) instead of Egwene and Sheriam.
The Elaida event had just transpired at the end of book four and at the beginning of book six Demandred could take credit for it and and say that the Dark One has validated the choice.
"Let the Lord of Chaos rule" could mean to let her STAY in power. And the risk is obviously the discovery of Alviarin's true alliegence and exposure of the black Ajah as a whole, and Mesaana.
I consider Elaida to be normally foolish. She misreads her own foretellings! And someone easily controlled by the black is also a sign of foolishness.
7
WinespringBrother: 2003-11-28
GLOTD: "Demandred's words "Have I not done well?" imply he had a hand in some event of LoC. It would be required to assume he was involved with Egwene somehow, which is possible, since Semirhage, his sometimes ally, has a hand in setting up Aran'gar in the Salidar camp. "
Halima didn't show up in LOC until Chapter 30, by which presumably Egwene was all but chosen as the Amyrlin (though she wasn't summoned until Chapter 32). If Sheriam is Black Ajah, she was probably reporting to one of the Forsaken that was alive before Halima's arrival, perhaps Demandred, who could therefore have been pulling the strings up to that point where Egwene was anointed. It could also have been Mesaana, who was working closely with Demandred however, and since Demandred was the one who visited the Great Lord (twice, in beginning and end), he could have been trying to crib Mesaana's credit in the end since Nae'blis is not for the meek, but the bold who will do anything for it. He also could have told Mesaana how to accomplish the Great Lord's orders and claim credit for managing her achievements.
Halima arrived on the scene too late to claim much credit for events in LOC anyway.
8
a dragonburned fool: 2003-11-28
I'm glad to see a theorymaking connection between the "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" and the Feats of Fools. It is a very important clue for understanding the DO's order, because it's the thing, what a inhabitant of WoTland will understand under "lord of chaos".
Yes, Egwene! But why only Egwene? There are lot of points for Rand being the "lord of chaos" in DO's order (at least it's not likely in the common DO's plans not to be defined the strategy for dealing with the Rand problem) - but why not both Rand and Egwene been lord and lady of the chaos. And not only they. "Let the lord of chaos rule looks like not only one of the plans, but like keyword for the whole strategy of the Shadow. Could it mean something like: "stop with local rulerships, let celebrate a feast of fools in every important sphere!" Actually we see men and women proper to be described as Lords/Ladies of the Chaos everywhere. Elaida is the fool-Queen in TV; Massema plays a fool-ruler in Gealdan and Amadicia; Lady Arimilla is a complete fool-Queen in Andor; Omerna and Valda are playing the role among the Whitecloaks; King Alsalam is the fool-king in Arad Doman; maybe Tuon is planed to be a fool-queen in Seanchan lands ... everywhere. And Sammael as not being there to hear the order of DO, becomes the next lord of chaos, and the next to be killed from the Forsaken.
9
a dragonburned fool: 2003-11-28
Some considerations, that, as I think, could help here:
The Feast of Fools is very similar to many ancient and medieval european feasts and customs - somebody, most commonly a low ranked, or ugly person is choosen to be the central figure of the feast (most times a variant of a carnival) and he can command in that day. Actually all of the feasts listed in the last chapter of BWB are very like to medieval feast, some of them even with the name they had in real world (Bel Tain). But returning to Fool's Day - the archetype of this custom is regarded to be an ancient ritual, when a man is choosen to be sacrificed, but before he is killed he becomes the title of a sacred king and everybody must obey his orders. Originaly it was very honourful to be choosen for a sacred king, he must be a venerable person, but with the time, of course, because the clause of being killed at the end, it became a post only for fools. It's remarkable, that this custom was a ritual for giving a beginning to a new cycle of life, recycling life with new power, making the world new again, or similar.
To say it in WoT terminology, to make the Wheel turn again and a new Age to come.
But this is the objective of the good side, and "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" is DO's order. Now, if the Wheel is coming to the phase Fool's Feast, and DO's wish is to rebuild the world (and therefore the Wheel too) by his image, so it's normal for him to try to make his own feast of fools with his outcome, his new life cycle. Or at least to take part in the Wheel's games with the Wheel's bids.
Egwene's dream about Rand's burial, a balefire (not in WoT meaning, but as fire in a feast) burial common to some real world fool's feasts, the profecy of him dying for sake of the new world and many others, point Rand as Lord of Chaos also in th Wheel's "plans". She herself as the youngest Amerlyn when the Tower is split and everything in the word goes wrong, her dream about the henker's axe over her head and another things make herself too having similar role in the Pattern. Many from the another characters too. So both sides want from the main characters to play the sacred king's role - maybe common fate all of them have to face at least great danger with outcomes important for the coming of the new Age.
10
Callandor: 2003-11-28
**GLOTD: "Demandred's words "Have I not done well?" imply he had a hand in some event of LoC. It would be required to assume he was involved with Egwene somehow, which is possible, since Semirhage, his sometimes ally, has a hand in setting up Aran'gar in the Salidar camp."**
I always thought that Dem played his part in Rand's kiddnapping:
**TITLE: Crown of Swords, CHAPTER: 20 - Patterns Within Patterns
"The watcher's eyebrows rose. A truce? A claim as risky as it was false, by all evidence. "I didn't arrange his kidnapping." Sammael gave her what he probably thought was a wry look; his scar made it more a snarl. "Mesaana had a hand in it, though. Maybe Demandred and Semirhage as well, despite how it ended, but Mesaana certainly. Perhaps you ought to reconsider what you think the Great Lord means about leaving al'Thor unharmed."
11
WinespringBrother: 2003-11-28
a dragonburned fool:
Let the lord of chaos rule looks like not only one of the plans, but like keyword for the whole strategy of the Shadow.
That is a possibility also. The plans of Chaos seem to involve ripping apart each powerful nation and organization. Perhaps Egwene is just one of the aspects of the plan, but a major one nonetheless. My main point of this theory is that Egwene's appointment was planned by the Shadow, and is very important in advancing toward their goals. And it doesn't explain Mesaana's comment about the risk involved - it seems like a pretty good plan actually, with little risk.
However, there are two problems regarding Rand's kidnapping. If he is the Lord of Chaos, then kidnapping him is not "letting him rule." Second, since the kidnapping failed, how can Demandred say "Have I not done well?" regarding that particular plot.
Hmmm. Perhaps examining the multitude of chaotic events in that book can shed a light on Demandred's identity.
12
a dragonburned fool: 2003-11-29
Excuse me for posting too much my stuff, but I attempted to post a theory about the connection between Lord of Chaos and Feast of Fools 3 weeks ago. That theory was reported as lost, and after this theory appeared it's late for me to attempt again. But I have some thoughts and the impatience to post them.
Also some details more:
- The children chant in the opening of LoC ends with the verses "... jackdaw fool, let the Lord of Chaos rule". It's RJ's "quote" to explain the meaning of the book's title, it's containing the DO's order word by word, and a "fool" is mentioned just before. The whole chant, from a structural linguistic point of view, has typical carnival origin (all the reverse things in it), i.e. is too close connected with the type of festst, where in the real world the Fool's Feast custom occurs. The chant means the feast (the children from 4Age couldn't know DO's secter orders). The connection is clear.
- Morridin's sha'rah game. From the 3 ways to win, one has been played before and failed, one requires a control over the Fisher, and it remains the option, when the opponent is controlling the Fisher, to force him to move where Morridin wants. That is obviously the variant Morridin currently is playing, and it is very like to a plan of letting fool-kings and fool-qeens rule.
13
Callandor: 2003-11-29
**Second, since the kidnapping failed, how can Demandred say "Have I not done well?" regarding that particular plot.**
Three reasons come to mind:
1. Demandred was late on his informants (personally, I find this unlikely, but a reason no doubt).
2. The kidnapping of Rand practically set in deeper stone that Rand could not trust Aes Sedai from then on, so the spit is more evident.
3. Going off the second motive, Rand is forced to trust his Asha'man which could be more and more riddled with Darkfriends.
**However, there are two problems regarding Rand's kidnapping. If he is the Lord of Chaos, then kidnapping him is not "letting him rule."**
As per above, the kidnapping could've then forced Rand to "rule" in a certain way more aligned with Dark plots.
14
WinespringBrother: 2003-11-30
Callandor, are you saying that Demandred had a hand in the kidnapping failing (and sticking it to Mesaana?) Otherwise if the kidnapping succeeded, than that would make no sense. And I don't think Mesaana meant for the kidnapping to fail, considering how she was bragging on having Rand under her control in the near future.
15
a dragonburned fool: 2003-11-30
I must agree Rand's kidnapping is a point against him being the "Lord of Chaos" from the order. But nevertheless there are still some possibilities left. The plan for kidnapping Rand dates from before Rahvin's death, i.e. before DO's order, because Galina & Co didn't know Rand moved to Caemlyn, and they needed time for travel from TV to Cairhein, and they arrived to Cairhein only few days after Rand's victory over Rahvin. And IIRC Mesaana telled she's expecting Rand soon in her hands, just before Demandred coming to tell them DO's order. Maybe fter the order they hoped to make a little bit closer the end of Fool's Feast.
16
Jiana: 2003-11-30
Winespringbrother, your most recent post got me thinking... About where Demandred is, and who he is masquerading as. In another post long ago someone mentioned that Asunawa might be Demandred... (I think that one contains spoilers for CoT so beware! I can't remember which theory.) So, while I don't think that Eamon Valda is a DF, I do think that some characters in the story can be evil without being a DF. Valda is seemingly having to do a tapdance to keep his own plans in motion while seeming to cooperate with Asunawa. In other words, or shorter ones anyway, he is being a very, very bad Lord Captain Commander of the Children of the Light. If I remember correctly, Pedron Niall's murder occurred after Demandred had his orders from the DO. Could Valda not be the intended Lord of Chaos? Niall would have balked, but eventually seen the sense of allying the Children with the Dragon Reborn and the "witches" to defeat the Seanchan and the Dark One. Valda is too wrapped up in his own self importance and schemes to see any kind of sense. Just my opinion, but I think he makes an excellent candidate.
17
WinespringBrother: 2003-12-01
Perhaps the "Lord of Chaos" plan, combined with the Sha'rah game that Moridin was playing in APOD, means that Moridin was alive at the beginning of LOC. The plots seem similar, with leaders being placed in control of all the various nations and factions in Randland that can be controlled by Moridin in his little game of World Conquest. Since Aran'gar and Osan'gar were secretly brought back, why not him also?
18
Callandor: 2003-12-01
**Callandor, are you saying that Demandred had a hand in the kidnapping failing (and sticking it to Mesaana?) Otherwise if the kidnapping succeeded, than that would make no sense. And I don't think Mesaana meant for the kidnapping to fail, considering how she was bragging on having Rand under her control in the near future.**
Plans within plans. If the kiddnapping failed, then the reasons given are supported as back-ups. If the kiddnapping succeeded, then they are on track.
And no, I am not saying that Dem purposefully messed up Mesaana's plan to get Rand. Dem and Mesaana and possibly Semi took hand in making the kiddnapping, and Rand escaped from it (BTW, I am of the belief that Dem is not affiliated with the BT, so him ordering Rand's rescue is not an option to me).
19
silverwolf: 2003-12-01
I think that Demandred did have a hand in the foiling of Rand's kidnapping. I've always thought he must be giving orders to Taim (or at least manipulating him), so that would explain how Taim knew exactly where to find Rand. Also, Mesaana benefited from the kidnapping failure as well--it allowed Alviarin to browbeat Elaida and essentially take control of the tower.
So, Mesaana and Demandred both gain from the failure of the kidnapping more than they would from it succeeding. It seems likely that they worked together planned for it to fail.
20
brigitta: 2003-12-17
this theory i like. but once we're already on the topic of the Lady of chaos, why not Elaida? she's a lot easier to control and has a certain Alviarin closeby. and it's not like she is all that bright to see hidden innuendos... then again Egwene has Halima... and she's new to the whole politics thing.
21
jain: 2005-06-03
How about The Prophet of the Dragon for The Lord of Chaos? He's definately a fool, more that a little chaotic, and I can see where he'd be swayed by one of the Forsaken.
22
mb: 2008-09-16
There are two parts in the order "Let the Lord of Chaos rule". One part is to sow seeds of chaos, and the other is to let Rand live for the moment. The context in the passage tells that the person is Rand, not anyone else.
About Egwene, nowhere in the books I read tells of her being easily manipulated.
And about Sheriam, there is evidence of her not being Black Ajah; if she was, Halima would have more likely chose her instead of Delana.
