Tamyrlin: 2004-02-28

This is what happens, when we have a significant amount of time between books, we begin to notice odd remarks in the text about unknown characters. I think you are right, in general; as far as I recall, we don't have a POV from him, but Jordan talks about him and the reaction of people to him. I am sure Jordan didn't remark on every person at the darkfriend social in TGH. I don't see why it couldn't be possible that Vanin is a darkfriend, but that would require some documenting of Vanin's moves, etc, to identify anything suspicious. I know you aren't necessarily suggesting he is a darkfriend, but I agree, something is up with Vanin...or maybe we are guiltly of trying to find something in everything.

Cha Faile: 2004-02-28

** but all of them quickly look away after one look at Lan and surprisingly they do the same for Vanin.**

Perhaps Vanin was previously a Warder- he doesn't neccessarily need to be a darkfriend.

Just a Thought...

Elder Haman: 2004-02-28

Why does Perrin's insignificance have anything to do with this? I don't think he's insignificant.

dragonsceptor: 2004-02-28

While it's possible Vanin used to be a warder, it is unlikely.

1)If Vanin used to be a warder, he either still has the warder bond or the warder bond has been removed.

2)If the bond has been removed,the AS would have to be Dead, stilled, or have removed the bond.

3) We have never even seen a hint of the possiblity that an AS would voluntarily remove the bond. If the AS were dead or stilled, it is unlikely that Vanin would have survived.

4) If the bond still exists, there is an AS out there that can feel Vanin. This seems like it would be an extreme liabilty for a horse thief. Elyas talks about how he can still feel his AS and tries to avoid her. Do you think an AS bonded to Vanin would overlook Vanin's thievery? I don't.

***Crackpot Idea that I don't really believe but is fun to think about***

What if Vanin is a warder and the bond still exists and his AS is Verin? Verin has mentioned that she likes to keep an eye on Rand, Mat, and Perrin. What better way to send her warder? IIRC, Vanin just came and joined the Band of the Red Hand. This would be easy enough for a warder and it does not appear that much screening was going on with the new people joining. This also ties one shifty character that we don't know much about to another shifty character we don't know much about.

Again, I don't necessarily believe this but it would be funny if it were true.

WinespringBrother: 2004-02-28

2 questions:

1. Would an Aes Sedai bond a 'well-known' horse thief as a Warder?

2. Would said Aes Sedai not subsequently discourage said behaviour?

Callandor: 2004-02-28

**3) We have never even seen a hint of the possiblity that an AS would voluntarily remove the bond. If the AS were dead or stilled, it is unlikely that Vanin would have survived.**

But we have.

**TITLE: The Path of Daggers, CHAPTER: 10 - Changes

"The older man waited until they were a dozen paces from the tents before he replied, and even then, he spoke quietly, as though he suspected someone behind them might have eats as good as theirs. "One who knows my name will be bad enough. Warders don't run off often, boy. *Most Aes Sedai will free a man who really wants to go--most will--and anyway, she can track you down however far you run if she decides to hunt.* But any sister who finds a renegade will spend her idle moments making him wish he'd never been born." He shivered slightly. His smell was not fear, but anticipation of pain. "Then she'll turn him over to his own Aes Sedai to drive the lesson home. A man's never quite the same after that." At the edge of the slope, he looked back. Masuri did seem to be trying to kill the carpet, focusing all her rage on attempting to beat a hole through it. Elyas shivered again, though. "Worse thing would be to run into Rina. I'd rather be caught in a forest fire with both legs borken."

So we know that Aes Sedai will release their Warders if they agree to, but it most likely is not common at all.

Cossack: 2004-02-28

As has been said, Vanin is a horse thief, so he probably knows a lot of moving with stealth and stuff from his trade. Fat people still can be able to move with stealth. And since he is a thief he probably knows their codes, or their signals to say "get stuffed" or something. But then again i might be leading you all a bit to far into the mockers and Jimmy the hand :D

Oatman: 2004-02-28

First off I'd like to point out that people dont look away from Lan because hes a warder, they look away from him because of the often remarked apon look of death in his eyes, so that disproves Vanin being a warder for that reason.

Second, Vanin is hardly a well known horsethief, he is perhaps the least known, which makes him the best at what he does. A requirement for this type of job would be being light on your feet, if you wanted to be successful, and that's why i would assume Vanin took the job. His bulky appearance would just throw people off his trail, with noone expecting him to be as good as he is at what he does.

It seems logical however that he could have had some training, which could have icluded some fighting instructions, and correct me if I'm wrong, but we havent seen Vanin fight yet. He may be a quite adept fighter, and the reason people looked away from him in the Rahad was because they recognized this in him, or maybe he had been to Ebou Dar himself beforehand and had made a reputation for himself as good fighter. Only way to truly find out thou is to wait for RJ to tell us.

Darren: 2004-02-28

But then again i might be leading you all a bit to far into the mockers and Jimmy the hand :D

- I loved the Magician novels... too bad Feist kind of petered out....

As to Vanin, you MIGHT be right, BOH (I'm having trouble with addressing anybody by these ridiculous RJ monikers, lately....) but isn't it possible that Vanin is just what the books say he is? A world-class bad ass?

I always thought people shied away from him in the Rahad because of the depths of his loyalty to Elayne... He was putting out some fierce vibes, that day.

Of course, there is every possibility that I will eat my words, but I just don't see him being a forsaken... for one thing, the manner in which he was found (Mat had to look HARD, and had he not, he would not have).

dragonsceptor: 2004-02-29

Thank you for the quote Callandor. I was not aware of that. However, as you stated, it is probably very rare for the AS to release the warder.

ilgross: 2004-02-29

I think RJ just wanted to write a character the was fat, yet very dangerous, maybe like his joke of making the desert aiel all fair headed.

charliec: 2004-02-29

I don't see the need for him to be anything more special than he already is...

Warders aren't the only very highly skilled bunch of people, they're just the most famous. RJ's a bit guilty of making his main characters too invincible in the early books, but later on we begin to come across more and more people who are the warder's equals in some way- generals for tactics, Aiel and hardened veterans for fighting, so why not a horse-thief for stealth and dealing in information?

People look away from him in crowds because he's quite a formidable man in his own way, and some of that obviously comes across in his body language (graceful movement, confidence).

I'm dead thin, and move like a mad cow- I'm forever stumbling or dropping things! My fencing master at school was a solidly built, arguably fat, man. He was stunningly coordinated, had been an international fencer, and seemed to glide or fly when he fought. (benefit of an english public school education). Quite apart from reality, RJ refers to bulky men who move gracefully and aren't hiding dark secrets... some of them are warders!

Also, I don't think we can say Vanin's a well-positioned darkfriend except by blind chance... Mat selected him, and he initially didn't want the job.

He survived the gholam attack because real characters don't die that often in these books... the anonymous red-arms and porters suffer most! I was stunned enough that RJ killed of the lord... good on him!

So no, for my tuppence, Vanin's no more than he seems.

Grane: 2004-03-08

I would just like to say Vanin isn't a Warder, nor is he a forsaken in disguise. He is a character like Julian Sandar who is just good at what he does. He hasn't had as much spotlight as say Julian. One other point- there is no indication that Perrin is a lesser ta'veren or character than Mat. Just remember the story isn't over yet.

IkilledAsmodean: 2004-07-05

For the record, real characters do get killed off. This isn't an episode of Star Trek, for God sakes. I mean, look at about a third of the Ashaman that we get aquainted with. As well as assorted side members of Team Rand (if I see this phrase again on these boards, I'm going to have to smack myself).

-Several major Aes Sedai we get to know

-Several major Whitecloaks (and I mean the likable ones)

-oh, and Moraine (who is dead until proven otherwise, folks, and regardless, died anyway).

This of course doesn't take into account those who ide and then come back to life, which is a whole nother response in itself.

But this is a sidetrack to the real point. Vanin is soemoen I generally put into a category of keeping an eye on, or keeping in mind simply because he is a tiny bit out of sorts. And when RJ does this, he elts this slip by notce, and then somethign major happens later on because of it. I think Vanin will be one of those types of people.

silverwolf: 2005-10-03

I consider Vanin to be one of those people you know not to get into a fight with, even if you don't know why. When someone that big moves with the agility he's described as having, you generally don't mess with them. This doesn't necessarily mean that he's warder-trained; in fact, I doubt that he is. It just means that he's good at what he does.

More people than he and Elayne survived the gholam:

"Reanne and Tamarla were on their feet...Nynaeve stood, helping up Sibella...and Sumeko was still working on Famelle...Two Wise Women dead [Melore and Janira], and six of his Redarms."--ACOS, "Six Stories" p.776

Over half of the Wise Women survived the gholam's attack, along with some of Matt's Redarms (reread the chapter; I'm done quoting for today).

And, though not everyone who dies is wearing a red shirt on an away mission, in the first part of the series that was true. None of the main characters in TEOTW permanently died (I consider the Green Man minor), only Ingtar in TGH, none in TDR (unless you count Be'lal, who only showed up for a couple of chapters--a force to be reckoned with, but hardly a major character), only that one Wise One in TSR (and since I can't remember her name...not a major character :) ). Moiraine was picked off in TFOH, but with all the indications she's coming back I hardly consider her dead (i.e.: dead until reborn by the Wheel). It's about this time, though, that RJ started killing off some longer-lasting characters: Rahvin, Couladin, some of the Maidens whose names we knew, Melindrha, etc. In later books, people keel over dead more often (Kumira, Eben, Fedwin, people in book 10 that aren't here since this is a before COT theory, ect.), but overall it's a feel-good story where the characters you know and love live to fight another day (something of a good thing since many appear to be crucial to winning the Last Battle...). You can't argue that enough people die for realism, but that's ok since it's a fantasy novel.

For example, Mat carried the tainted dagger, attacked one forsaken in TEOTW, threw himself off a bridge to kill a grayman in TDR, charged into the strongest fortress in the world with the Black Ajah and another Forsaken inside--after blasting a hole in the side with fireworks that he didn't really have enough time to get away from--was hung in Rhuidin in TSR, survived an assassination attempt involving Aiel and gateways in TFOH or LOC, survived a gholam attack and having a house fall on him in ACOS...need I keep going? The point is, he shouldn't still be alive, luck or no luck, and neither should most of the other main characters, but they are since they are essential to the story. I don't fault Jordan for this; the danger makes a good story, and you have to have characters left at the end of it. If you don't like it, you shouldn't be reading Fantasy--the same is used by Tolkien, Terry Brooks, Anne McAffrey, David Eddings, and (arguably, to a lesser extent) Raymond Fiest, and those are just some of the authors that I can think of examples of this off the top of my head. If you want realism, read history [**resists urge to comment on revisionist history and how "Victors write the histories"**]

Dovien: 2010-08-11

I never thought of Vanin being anything more than what he is.

If we assume that he is more than he is then the best possible explanation is that he is Demandred in disguise. I suggest this because of the obvious parallel with Keille Shaogi and because Demandred's hiding place is yet to be revealed (so far as I know). Of course, this is very unlikely because I don't think Vanin has much free time for gallivanting off through gateways. Thus, I think it's quite safe to assume that there's nothing unusually special about Chel Vanin.

terez: 2010-08-12

@Dovien - we know from Brandon that Demandred's alter ego has not been seen on screen as of TGS.

Dovien: 2010-08-15

A fact which likely strengthens my assumption.