Tamyrlin: 2004-04-02

While you did not find a posted theory, this is something we have been kicking around for years; but, your theory is still controversial. I can't find the other quote at the moment (something I hope one of the quotemasters will remedy), but RJ is also quoted as saying, iirc, Thom's daggers were not power wrought. So, they are "special", but as far as I know, not power-wrought. I could be wrong.

dragonsceptor: 2004-04-02

The other thing that has been bandied about is the quote (sorry...I don't have the exact one) where Thom says he lost his best daggers in SL. Now, if he had power wrought daggers, wouldn't it make sense that those were his best daggers and were lost? I think the reason this is still on the table is because RJ made a mistake.

Unicorn: 2004-04-02

first some nit picking in Encyclopaedia WOT the knives both in shadar logoth and whitebridge are refered to as powerwrought so some one had seen that.

I think what we can deduce from the evidence and the unconfirmed quote that 2+2=4 but so does 3+1 blue light(ning) is not the unknown trademark of the One power.

What got me leaning forward is the wording of Jordans answer.

**Robert Jordan: Because Thom's best knives ARE very special indeed. ** (caps are mine)

Before whitebridge, just after boarding the Spray Thom is bitching about loosing his besst knives (eye of the world ch.20)

Unfortunately we don't really know if Thom lost the set of knives used in whitebrigde, I allways unconsiously thought that he did, but Jordan say they ARÈ special, not they were special - how does Thom get his knives back all the time?

Callandor: 2004-04-02

**I can't find the other quote at the moment (something I hope one of the quotemasters will remedy), but RJ is also quoted as saying, iirc, Thom's daggers were not power wrought. So, they are "special", but as far as I know, not power-wrought. I could be wrong.**

RJ has said both things to be true, which is why this is still going around. Personally, I think RJ just mispoke.

Examples:

**Q: If a Fades blade will not produce lighting except against other Thakandar wrought blades, and power-wrought blades, Why do Thom's daggers produce it when he attacks the Fade at Whitebridge?

A: thoms daggers did not produce the effect. It was produced before thom reached the fade.**

He has also said that Thom's Daggers are "very special indeed".

I believe he had the Power-wrought daggers, and think it is a mess up by RJ.

Arbryan: 2004-04-02

IIRC Thom said he lost two of his best daggers, meaning he had more than two. Or he is specific when referring to his best (normal) daggers and his very special (power-wrought) knives.

**A: thoms daggers did not produce the effect. It was produced before thom reached the fade.**

I think this is true. If I were Thom and I was moving towards a fade. AND I just happened to have some power-wrought daggers/knives you better believe I would prefer to get lucky with a throw before engaging in hand-to-hand combat.

So to see if we can use symantecs...

**A: thoms daggers did not produce the effect.**

The One Power did, not the daggers. Might be a stretch, but I could buy it.

**It was produced before thom reached the fade.**

Again, if Thom threw a dagger and the fade was able to knock it aside with its sword the lightning would have been produced before Thom reached it.

charliec: 2004-04-03

The theory and the possible RJ mistake are both very plausible... but the reason this hasn't been resolved (or even very deeply speculated into) after so long is that we don't really have enough information.

My personal hunch is that the blue light is not from the blades meeting, but rather because the fade is doing something. We never get to see a fade in unarmed combat, but we are told that they have 'tricks', and I'm inclined to think of the light as being part of the fade torturing Thom, and leaving him with a limp.

Admittedly we do see blue when power-wrought weaponry and fade's swords meet, but not necessarily exclusively then.

(and if Thom's blades are special but not power wrought... what's so good about them? I hate invoking the Finn as explanations, but they'll serve as an example- there are other ways to get special items than through channelers)

Darren: 2004-04-03

One of the "little" puzzling things in Theoryland is how, whenever a theory gets dispelled in one line of posting, someone revives it in another.

Does it matter... perhaps, stading on the bridge, Thom and the Fade were a brawling incarnation of pathetic fallacy, and some freakish very small ball lightning formed.

Brendan Reborn: 2004-04-04

Is it so hard to beleive that Thom's knives are power-wrought?

I mean RJ has quoted that they are special knives indeed.

We don't have enough information on Thom's past to conclude otherwise.

We know he was a court bard and lover for morgase, had two nephews who could channel, and is a gleeman now, but who's to say he didn't fight in the Aiel war. (after all, he is skilled in the game of houses and seems to know alot about cairhein)

Just my two cents.

Sir Milo: 2004-04-04

I agree with charliec. There is more to Fades than we have seen yet. The blue flashes could have happened before Thom reached the Fade AND his blades could be special.

I personally believe the Fades possess something very akin to Channeling in addition to their other abilities that are not based on Channeling ( like inducing fear, and transporting from shadow to shadow ). The thing that leads me to this conclusion is that they are required to turn someone to the shadow - 13 Mydraal and 13 AS. Why would they be needed if the couldn't channel in some rudimentary way? Perhaps they are sort of conduits of the True Power and, when suprised, can lash out with it somehow in an instinctual way.

About Thom's blades being special, they don't need to be power wrought - they could be terangreal, perhaps like Mat's that stops One Power - and also, perhaps, it being a Ter'angreal and not necesarily made by a weaponsmith it isn't the best balanced of knives ( and therefore, while special, it is not considered by Thom his "best knives" so he could have lost his best-made knives in Shadar Logoth and still had these).

Callandor: 2004-04-04

**Is it so hard to beleive that Thom's knives are power-wrought?**

Not really, it is just the fact that he threw his "best knives" before Whitebridge. Would Power-wrought daggers would really be seen as anything less the best? I don't think so.

**I mean RJ has quoted that they are special knives indeed.**

He has also been quote on that they are not power-wrought; hence the confusion.

**We know he was a court bard and lover for morgase, had two nephews who could channel, and is a gleeman now, but who's to say he didn't fight in the Aiel war.**

He had one nephew who could channel Owyn.

Davian93: 2004-04-04

****We know he was a court bard...seems to know alot about cairhein)****

He was still the Court bard in Camelyn at the time of the Aiel war. He probably didnt fight in the war. Too busy "advising" Morgase no doubt. She wouldn't have sent her juggler/chief political advisor off to war.

oortwaynes: 2004-04-05

ok i am currently reading an RJ interview from the nederlands. Its an old one. He is asked:

If a Fades blade will not produce lighting except against other Thakandar wrought blades, and power-wrought blades, Why do Thom's daggers produce it when he attacks the Fade at Whitebridge?

and he answers:

thoms daggers did not produce the effect. It was produced before thom reached the fade.

so i went and checked the text and now i have a problem. The fades blades are supposed to be what causes it when it strikes power wrought metal right?? But the text says that the fades blade is only half drawn when Thom hits him so what causes the flashes?? Please help me if u can

Khaos: 2004-04-05

The Knives Thom lost in Shadar Logoth were perfectly balanced throwing knives. Throwing knives are generally quite short. Thom probably also has several longer daggers for hand to hand encounters which would be the power wrought ones. So he lost his best throwing knives but not necessarily his best weapons.

Brendan Reborn: 2004-04-05

Ok. Sorry, it is one nephew.

After seriously pondering in school, i have come to the conclusion that if RJ quoted they are not power-wrought, then they are not power-wrought.

I think being a ter'angreal is a possibility. Mat's medallion burns the gholam, and maybe this is another kind of that effect.

Anubis: 2004-04-05

i think that thom is just so cool that blue sheet lightning hearlds his way into battle. its like I AM THOM hEAR ME ROAR IM SO COOL AND OLD THAT I GET LIGHTNING TO ANNOUNCE ME!! RAWR.

jlrx: 2004-04-05

I think we can draw a connection with his blades being special (but not power wrought) and the finns. If he is supposed to save Moirane from the finns one day, it is not unbelivable to think he had previous experiences with them. He was a courtbard , is a gleeman at the time , and im sure that his knowledge of the past (although through stories) may have made him aware of a way to access the world of the finns, I dont know, just throwing the thought out there.

charliec: 2004-04-06

A well worded and coherent argument Anubis, I'm impressed.

jlrx- **I think we can draw a connection with his blades being special (but not power wrought) and the finns**

Oops. I hadn't meant for people to take this seriously, I'd just wanted to point out that there are other sources of special items. The knives would have come from the foxes, and their doorway was safely hidden in Rhuidean, so unless Thom made his way to the Tower of Ghenjei and puzzled out it's secrets... Realistically, I think we should steer clear of dragging the finns in here without some evidence, it just makes speculation impossible if we always resort to 'they got it from the finns'. Thom was a politician not an adventurer when he was a bard, and is unlikely to have had the time to boldly go where angels fear to tread.

Darren: 2004-04-06

**After seriously pondering in school, i have come to the conclusion that if RJ quoted they are not power-wrought, then they are not power-wrought**

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Interviews are NOT reliable sources.

Besides this, all he says is that they are "very special indeed" there's a whole lot more to the world of the WoT than just saidar and saidin. And there are more worlds than just the one the books usually take place in.

I'm still going with pathetic fallacy.

Oatman: 2004-04-07

Who's to say wilder rand didnt create the flash? He was in need of somthing to happen, and the town caught alight shortly after, so whos to say he didnt summon a bolt of lightning from the skyu like he did later in the book to escape the inn. It has bee quoted earlier in the thread that the blue flash happened before tom reached the fade and before the fade had his blade drawn, and since the fade didnt have time to finish tom off, i doubt he would have time to set the town alight.

dragonsceptor: 2004-04-07

Oatman, I thought the same thing but everyone at the time shot me down. It centered around the fact that Rand did not show any sickness afterwards. All other instances of his wilder channelling were accompanied by sickness before and after, as is common with wilders until they learn to control it. Therefore, as we have no indication Rand had any sickness in the days following whitebridge, we know he did not channel.

Callandor: 2004-04-07

**Who's to say wilder rand didnt create the flash? He was in need of somthing to happen, and the town caught alight shortly after, so whos to say he didnt summon a bolt of lightning from the skyu like he did later in the book to escape the inn.**

Because Rand and Mat would've remarked about that lightning bolt happening, RJ would've said "lightning bolt" not blue flash, and Rand was still having his channeling sickness syndrom at this time and the timing does not match up for him to be channeling a lightning bolt and not get sick from it.

Oatman: 2004-04-08

I was using the lightning bolt as an example, not an actual fact. Aomthing created the fire, and it wasnt the myrdraal, and Rand wouldnt necessarily have the channeling sickness, if it wasnt that major. Lightning would require air and water, and i think a little fire was mentioned by a character in the book, and would have been a big effort for a male, however if Rand only channelled fire it might not have had such a strain. Remember he has already channelled at least once before this without getting sick, when he was keeping Bela refreshed so Egwene wouldnt fall behind, so it is not totally unreasonable to think this, especially compared to some of the other crackpot theories like thom channelling.

Callandor: 2004-04-08

**Something created the fire, and it wasnt the myrdraal, and Rand wouldnt necessarily have the channeling sickness, if it wasnt that major.**

Rand got symtoms of the channeling sickness from using a single weave of Air to move the boom to knock over the Trolloc on Domon's boat (his trapeze stunt); even something as small as that triggers it.

**Lightning would require air and water, and i think a little fire was mentioned by a character in the book,...especially compared to some of the other crackpot theories like thom channelling.**

No, Rand did get sick from Channeling to Heal Bela; it occured when Rand stood up to the Whitecloaks seven days later.

The size of the usage does not matter; it is using it that does.

Oatman: 2004-04-10

My mistake then, but I dont think his 'Trapeze Stunt' is an effect of channelling, i thought it was just Rand being an idiot, and that the the boom hitting the trolloc was a ta'veren thing more than a channeling thing

Oatman: 2004-04-10

And also, that still dosent say what started the fire, any thoughts on that would be appreciated.

silverwolf: 2004-04-11

I'd like to point out that ter'angreal are also made with the power, and therefor, by definition, are "power wrought". Also, I would like to point out that Thom says he lost his best KNIVES at Shadar Logoth and drew DAGGERS at Whitebridge. Semantics, but the two are entirely different weapons (especially since the knives, as pointed out above, were balanced throwing knives, not a weapon meant for hand-to-hand combat).

I like the idea of the blue flashes being a sort of fade-true power defense on a primitive level, but it doesn't seem likely; Mat didn't show any ill effects from his battles with the fades (listed above), nor did Rand or Lan ever mention any ill effects.

Callandor: 2004-04-11

**TITLE: Eye of the World

CHAPTER: 20 - Dust on the Wind

"My best knives," Thom muttered, but he made no effort to get down and retrieve them. "That one will bring others. I hope the river isn't too far. I hope . . ." Instead of saying what else he hoped, he shook his head and set off at a quick canter. Rand and Mat fell in behind him.**

**TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 26 - Whitebridge

"RUN!" Thom sprang into motion, too, with a long, wordless roar. Not after them, but toward the Myrddraal. His hands flourished as if he were performing at his best, and daggers appeared. Rand stopped, but Mat pulled him along.**

Dagger: A short pointed weapon with sharp edges.

Knife: (1) A cutting instrument consisting of a sharp blade attached to a handle. (2) A cutting edge; a blade.

rollthedice: 2004-04-12

What's to say that the blue flash wasn't simply sparks coming off of two blades hitting each other? Maybe I'm being to simple...but hey...it could be that.

Daekyras: 2004-04-12

"...Thom crashed into the Myrddraal before the black blade was half drawn, and both went down in a thrashing heap."

Half drawn black blade... Anyone else here know anything of fencing? Almost impossible for the blades to have come into contact unless Thom was trying to throw his knife into the kidney of the myrddraal. Thak'andar blade DID not meet power wrought blade.

I have a good explanation- Thom can Channel....No, wait, RJ said he can't. And this has been discussed to death and .....snore....Aes Seadai answers....smurphh....cousin Owen....mmmm beer.... Lets get on with our lives people!

charliec: 2004-04-13

**I like the idea of the blue flashes being a sort of fade-true power defense on a primitive level, but it doesn't seem likely; Mat didn't show any ill effects from his battles with the fades (listed above), nor did Rand or Lan ever mention any ill effects.**

But who else ever grapples hand to hand with a fade? we're told they have their 'tricks'... much the same langauge that Fain uses about his 'tricks' since he united with Mordeth, implying more than normal torture. Also: Fades can sense channeling or wards, and form links with trollocs, and of course Travel in their own special way. They've clearly got some kind of power abilities, but no channeler has ever noticed them using Saidin or Saidar... seems VERY likely they have some basic use of the TP.

moonstar404: 2004-04-13

Since Thom was the court bard in Caemlyn for a while, not to mention Morgase's lover and advisor, He would have had the run of Caemlyn's palace. We've seen before (most notably in Tear) how "special" items are stored in palace storerooms, without anybody knowing what they have. I can see Thom snooping around the old storerooms and finding some pretty cool stuff.

Callandor: 2004-04-13

**They've clearly got some kind of power abilities, but no channeler has ever noticed them using Saidin or Saidar... seems VERY likely they have some basic use of the TP.**

No, Aginor didn't even know how they did their tricks, and he was a Forsaken with TP access at the time; the odds of him not being able to figure out they used the TP are incredibly low. Their Traveling abilities seem more linked with their cloaks that never move, placing them "slightly out of phase with the world" IIRC.

timmah3209: 2004-04-13

Just a nice random quote that has to do with the blue flashes TFoH CH. 22 "The Myrddraal's blade flickered like a serpent's tongue, darted like black lightning, but to counter Mat's attack. WHEN raven-marked Power-wrought steel met Thakan'dar-made metal, blue light flashed around them, a crackle of sheet lightning." Ok obviously the emphasis being mine, but the point is that the flash appeared WHEN the blades met, not before, or as some convenient fade trick. It is a result of the blades clashing, whether this is only happens when power-wrought blades meet thakan'dar blades. This does not mean that the result is from the power-wrought blade however. The blue flashes could be a result of the thakan'dar blade on ANY blade.

Callandor: 2004-04-13

**It is a result of the blades clashing, whether this is only happens when power-wrought blades meet thakan'dar blades. This does not mean that the result is from the power-wrought blade however. The blue flashes could be a result of the thakan'dar blade on ANY blade.**

No, it is only with power-wrought blades, or another Thakan'dar made blade. It forms the lightning effect against Lan's sword, Rand's sword, Mat's ashandarei, and Fades blades. All blades, except the Fades blades, we know to be power-wrought (and by this extention we know something is going on with their blades ;)), but the Fade's blade does not produce the effect when Perrin's Axe comes into contact with it. So it is not every blade that this occurs.

charliec: 2004-04-14

Aginor didn't understand how they worked, but I think we should realise that even the forsaken may know relatively little about the TP, only Ishy is crazy enough to use it much. Considering that they are still being surprised by the things the OP can do despite their grounding in the AoL, we should hardly expect them to know everything about such a new an mysterious set of phenomena as fades and the TP.

As for blaming it on the cloaks... there's no evidence for or against that, yes their cloaks are weird, but so is the rest of their clothing, and their swords and their horses.

If it was the cloaks that enabled them to travel, don't you think it would have been relatively easy for Aginor to puzzle it out?

Deadsy: 2004-04-14

If it was any blade, someone would have noticed it again in the story. The Shienarans fought them in the bowl in the Dragon Reborn, and Lan & Mat & Rand fought them later in the Waste.

Callandor: 2004-04-14

**Aginor didn't understand how they worked, ...we should hardly expect them to know everything about such a new an mysterious set of phenomena as fades and the TP.**

I really doubt that. The Forsaken may be bumbling fools for the most part, but as the only people reference to the TP, they know this and Aginor would've had an unlimited capability to test this, and Semirhage's torture of a Myrddraal, and it not knowing what id does to Travel, highly point away from the TP.

**As for blaming it on the cloaks... there's no evidence for or against that, yes their cloaks are weird, but so is the rest of their clothing, and their swords and their horses.

If it was the cloaks that enabled them to travel, don't you think it would have been relatively easy for Aginor to puzzle it out?**

Blaming it on the cloaks? These aren't magical capes that turn anyone or anything into Fade Traveling beings; the Fades themselves do not exist wholely apart of this world. The wind does not touch their cloaks; they have no eyes, yet see like hawks; they strike fear into anyone/thing that they gase upon; they case a mist form in mirrors, not their own form (which is similar to Rand's reflection in Tel'aran'rhiod in TEOTW before Ishamael knows who he is); they refuse to admit they are dead when killed for quite some time; they have the sinuious grace unatainable by a human; they are all identical.

Some of those could be written off by other things (why they are bred and "training"), but no way you could write them all off as not proof of them being quite different, and them being "slightly out of phase with reality" seems to fit like a tailored suit.

Darren: 2004-04-15

**I would like to point out that Thom says he lost his best KNIVES at Shadar Logoth and drew DAGGERS at Whitebridge. Semantics, but the two are entirely different weapons (especially since the knives, as pointed out above, were balanced throwing knives, not a weapon meant for hand-to-hand combat).**

Now, this is my kind of answer. Good point, Silverwolf. Callandor, you aren't really doing much to refute him, with those quotes, what's your point?

Of course, what's the point with any of this? If it started to rain when Thom met the Fade, would people think that Thom was channeling then, despite the books flat out stating that Thom don't channel? Let me take you all back to school:

Pathetic Fallacy: A literary device wherein what is happening in the moment is mirrored in the heavens.

Everytime it rains or pigs fart in the books, someone isn't necessarily using the Power(s).

If the White Bridge was the highpoint in the area at that time, then two people holding metal rods upright in an area of potential lightning strikes, ball or other odd forms of lightning may well occur.

For those who still want to believe that the Power was involved, well heck, at the end of the day there may have been an aes sedai in the crowd who didn't want to reveal herself. You just don't know and RJ ain't saying.

dragonsceptor: 2004-04-15

I agree with Callandor...the Fades powers come from being out of phase.

A brief recap and then a question...

Thom may or may not have power wrought blades but either way, per the quote above it does not appear the blades touched. We have also never seen a Fade power that involves blue flashes. It is unlikely (I agree with you Callandor but I'm trying to keep an open mind regarding this) that Rand channeled the lightning because of the circumstances of the flash and the fact he did not get sick from channeling. The other possibility is that this is an error by RJ.

My question, for those of you who don't think it was an error, what do you think caused it as the likely explanations have all been ruled out?

heronblade: 2004-04-15

could it be that the knives were altered using the powers without being power-wrought. plus do we have evadence that matts ashanti(sp) is power-wrought. maybe thom got his daggers from the finns to... would be very useful if he had previous finn knowledge when they go to rescue mori;)...

Callandor: 2004-04-15

**Now, this is my kind of answer. Good point, Silverwolf. Callandor, you aren't really doing much to refute him, with those quotes, what's your point?**

?

I don't have an opinion at all about whether they were Power-wrought or not; I don't care. Something happened, something INCREDIBLY similar to Power-wrought blades coming into contact with a Fade blade, and Thom lived. Only reason I do not say flat out that Thom had Power-wrought daggers, and I never have, is because of RJ's conflicting answers.

**My question, for those of you who don't think it was an error, what do you think caused it as the likely explanations have all been ruled out?**

Most likely answer, Thom had Power-wrought daggers and they came in contact with the Fades half-drawn sword; RJ mispoke once which led to the conflict of conclusions.

**could it be that the knives were altered using the powers without being power-wrought.**

No, the definition of Power-wrought metals, are metals that have been altered with the Power, so that they never wear out. Common misconception is that ter'angreal are Power-wrought; they are not. They can be destroyed (as we have seen with the ter'angreal doorway and the access keys) much easier then Power-wrought objects (Rand's sword is the only Power-wrought object we have seen significantly altered; most likely by the TP).

charliec: 2004-04-16

*Tamyrlin I may have just submitted something very like this, in which case ignore this one... my computer's misbehaving*

I'm pretty sure Mat's blade is specifically referred to as power wrought at least once.

Callandor- apologies for the misunderstanding, I thought you were implying that the cloaks gave the fades their power. The point I was trying to make though is that the fades do have odd abilities, and are 'out of phase' and all that (whether it derives from the DO's taint, TP or whatever). It seems to me that this kind of torture and damage would be just the type of 'trick' they might have. As dragonsceptre said, we've never seen this kind of trick before, but we've never seen a fade without it's sword available either, so that's not surprising.

I feel that it's more likely that the myrddraal is doing something than to claim power wrought blades or channeling...

silverwolf: 2004-04-17

Wrought--made with. Power-wrought: Made with the one power (either Saidin or Saidar). Thus, ter'angreal, which are generally made with the one power, are by definition "power-wrought." This does not imply that they are indestructible, or even that they are strengthened with the one power, merely that they are made with it. Also, power wrought blades (those that are forged and strengthened with the one power) are not indestructible, since they are not made of cuendillar. Rather, they are seemingly invincible to the ordinary wear and tear of use. To prove this, read the end of TGH, in which Rand's power-wrought sword was destroyed by stabbing Ishamael.

Him-who-may: 2004-04-17

An important factor to consider is this. At the time of Thom fighting the Myrddraal Whitebride catches alight and 1/2 the town is consumed in flame.

When Rand later is having a fit (due to using the One power) he halucinates and sees Thom, who he believes dead, bleeding and with burn marks and scortches on his skin and clothes caused by the fight.

What do we know can cause fire? At first I would say the One Power but I think RJ said explicitly that he cannot channal or learn to.

So what else. An over-turned lamp seems a bit of a coinincedence so anybody have any ideas?

Callandor: 2004-04-17

**Wrought--made with. Power-wrought: Made with the one power (either Saidin or Saidar). Thus, ter'angreal, which are generally made with the one power, are by definition "power-wrought." This does not imply that they are indestructible, or even that they are strengthened with the one power, merely that they are made with it. Also, power wrought blades (those that are forged and strengthened with the one power) are not indestructible, since they are not made of cuendillar. Rather, they are seemingly invincible to the ordinary wear and tear of use. To prove this, read the end of TGH, in which Rand's power-wrought sword was destroyed by stabbing Ishamael.**

WOT FAQ:

**I asked RJ about Aes Sedai-forged weapons, like Lan's sword that never needs sharpening: was the Power just used in the manufacturing process, to change the structure of the steel to make it extra-strong, or was a flow of the Power somehow incorporated into the steel? "The Power was used in blending the metals (and other materials...) and altering the structure. There is no source of the Power in these weapons, nor do they draw on the Power like angreal...." [from RJ letter 4/95]**

I myself would add, they do not use the OP in a way ter'angreal do, but I didn't write the letter.

Yes, I know Rand's sword was broken, but we do not know how, and it is the only example that has been given of it.

**TITLE: Shadow Rising

CHAPTER: 54 - Into the Palace

The figurines did not break, of course. It seemed Moghedien was right; not even balefire could destroy cuendillar. That black rod was one of the stolen ter'angreal. Nynaeve could remember the warning appended to their list in a firm hand. Produces balefire. Dangerous and almost impossible to control.**

I will not quote all the times we have been told that the seals are cuendillar, but they are being broken. You can bring up the BWB and say they are a ter'angreal as well, and try to explain it that way, however the a'dam is a ter'agnreal, and the e've ("sad bracelet") works on the same principle as the a'dam, so it is a ter'angreal as well, and Moggy says that it cannot be destroyed (as well as Elayne's example of channeling Fire into it).

Ter'angreals are made with the One Power, but should not be classified as "Power-wrought" because they use the Power to preform functions, while the Aes Sedai-forged swords, are altered by the Power. Very fine difference, but it is there.

Turandil: 2004-04-18

A weapon dont have to be power wrought to produce lightning when striking a myrrdraals blade. Lans blade also produced blue lightning when dueling that myrrdraal in EotW, and Lans blade is not power wrought, iam pretty sure that Lan or maybe Moiraine stated as much in Fal Dara.

Rands blade though is power wrought.

I might be wrong, but this is as i remembered it.

Darren: 2004-04-18

Rand at this time had not learned to ward his dreams, and Ishamael was punishing him in TAR with all sorts of ghastly visions. Rand's visions of Thom are NOT prophecy.

charliec: 2004-04-18

In the panic ensuing a fade appearing in the centre of town an overturned lamp isn't such a coincidence...

kikyo: 2004-04-19

**I've said it before and I'll say it again. Interviews are NOT reliable sources.**

Why? How else are you actually going to know "the truth?" Even if there is contradicting information, I would say that whatever is the last piece of information in time is the definitive answer until more information is given by the author.

The world of the wheel of time exists only in fiction, not in real life. Thus, RJ is the definitive source for what happens in that world and why it happens. There is no seperately existing reality to that world.

So if the only information I have is:

1. The text

2. An interview at one time that says Thom's blades are "special"

3. An interview somewhat later that says the blue flash happened before Thom ever got to the Fade.

Then the answer is that the blue flash was NOT created by Thom's blades.

If later on, RJ says "Thom has power wrought blades and they made a blue flash against the Fade's sword." THEN, the answer changes.

I don't understand that "Just because RJ said it, doesn't mean it's true."

Yes it does! Randland is a totally fictional creation. These events never happened except inside RJ's head, so they have no objective truth other than what he chooses to make it. His answers may change, yes, as he changes his mind about it, but this is not the JFK assassination. None of this ever took place in the real world, so there is no other way to discover the truth of these events other than what this one man says, either in the books or in interviews or what have you.

So to summarize, Thom doesn't have power wrought blades, the blue flash was created by someone or something else, before Thom reached it. Perhaps another Fade counteracting the first with a Thakandar blade? Like the two factions of Trollocs in the Stone?

Anubis: 2004-04-19

turandil you hurt my brain. every time lans freakin sword is mentioned it is stated that it is power wrought. FAWK, new spring goes into depth about the history of the sword. There are so many freakin refrences to lans sword being power wrought that i cant think of a single one. IT IS.

Him-who-may: 2004-04-19

I never suggested that Rands halucinations were prophecy. I was mearly using it to draw atetntion to the fire.

Personally I think a fight between a shadowspawn and a mysterious man we know hardly anything about complete with unknown blue flashes and a fire happen to be caused by an over turned lamp in the panic is a very great coincedence indeed.

charliec: 2004-04-19

I just know a million people'll pick you up on this, but Lan's blade is powerwrought, he says so in Fal Dara...

HappyFade: 2004-04-21

I still believe the fade is an early Shaidar Haran appearence.

Rand is having trouble assuming the void at the time(ie his wilder way of unknowingly grasping the source was seemingly blocked) and we have the inexplicable blue sparks.

Well, we've seen SH block channelers, and we've seen him do fancy tricks as well(spear-burning, black globe,...).

Not to mention that the Whitebridge fiasco aint the only time Rand has trouble assuming the void in TEOTW when a fade is nearby. And when he does get a close up look at the fade that seems to be hounding him in TEOTW, it is smiling... sound familiar?

Until RJ figures out what he wants the truth to be, I'm sticking with my version.

dragonsceptor: 2004-04-21

Him-who-may, your point is? How exactly does an overturned lamp starting a fire cause a Blue Flash? You've made you point that it is possible, even likely. Who cares? Fire is red or orange, not blue. I know, I know, it will turn blue if it gets hot enough but an overturned lamp is not going to produce a flash of blue flame.

Brendan Reborn: 2004-04-21

The fade that was looking for them also ASKED the innkeeper in whitebridge about them. I don't recollect another fade talking, so maybe this is Shaidar Haran.

Him-who-may: 2004-04-22

I'm afraid you completely misunderstand me.

I am saying the fire was not caused by the lamp being knocked over, that seems too much like a coincedence. I am suggesting that the fire was caused by these blue flashes that we know are NOT caused by Thom's knives being power wrought due to the Shadar Logath and also if you read the passage of the fight itself the Myrddraal's blade isn't even fulling out of its shethe when the first flash occurs.

My point is;

a) What causes blue flashes? (remembering it can't be power wrought blades)

b) What caused the fire?

charliec: 2004-04-22

Plenty of other myrrdraal talk... to Rand in Baerlon, to the innkeeper a few miles down the road, to the bandits who capture the girls...

Shadar Haran is about 7 foot tall IIRC, it's the kind of detail people notice... this was just a normal myrrdraal

Darren: 2004-04-22

kikyo, thanks for asking.

The reason why interviews are not reliable sources is that the books speak for themselves. Apart from this, while RJ has many virtues, a freedom from vanity is NOT amongst them. He quite often makes empirical statements which later wind up contradicting each other or not matching up with what the texts say.

Consider that the "interview" may be a relaxing setting, or it may be an answer given after days spent flogging the novels, being asked the same infuriating question, when the man is tired. And once that answer is in the reporter's hands, RJ has no power to edit the statements (this last fact alone is a strong reason to distrust interviews.)

Interviews are written NOT by RJ but by a third and occasionally hostile party. They are OFTEN abbreviations and ellipses of what was actually said, yet they are accepted as "fact" by an all too ignorant many.

Turandil: 2004-04-22

Sorry Anubis, dont really know where I got that from, yeah your right, its clear to me now. Thanks.

Callandor: 2004-04-22

**The fade that was looking for them also ASKED the innkeeper in whitebridge about them. I don't recollect another fade talking, so maybe this is Shaidar Haran.**

No. A Fade talk to Perrin in the Stone of Tear ("Your Faile was delicious"), a Fade talks to Mat as well ("Time to die, Hornsounder"), a Fade talks to Jaichim Carridin in the prolouge of TDR (too much to quote), and a Fade talks to Padan Fain in TSR.

Fades have no eyes, but they do have the ability to speak.

Davian93: 2004-04-22

****I am suggesting that the fire was caused by these blue flashes that we know are NOT caused by Thom's knives being power wrought due to the Shadar Logath and also if you read the passage of the fight itself the Myrddraal's blade isn't even fulling out of its shethe when the first flash occurs.****

one cause: RJ simply messed up. It was the first book and he made a mistake.

second cause: possible fade trick. they do have some limited abilities that we dont understand

As for Thom's knives: he lost his best throwing knives at SL, that doesnt mean he didnt have other power wrought knives.

HappyFade: 2004-04-22

Agreed, fades can talk.

That is nothing special.

As for the height, I'm don't believe he was as tall back then, but, even if he was, I doubt any would notice it as strange.

Most townsfolk don't run into fades very often(if ever), and have no way to know exactly how tall they should be(recall Rand tells Lan he thought fades were supposed to be 20 feet tall or some such nonesense). And although Rand had seen a few fades by this point, the only time that Rand was close enough to judge a fades height would be he encounter in Baerlon(notice the smiling fade tell Rand he belongs to the DO... sound like any smiling fade we know). Every other fade Rand has seen at this point has been on horseback, making hard to judge height.

The only ones we've seen comment on SH height are forsaken. These are ones who have dealt with many fades, and would notice such a detail.

Even AS only get to study fades from the hacked apart corpses that are left, which are rarely in good condition.

Vimmzy: 2004-04-23

ok guys.. haven't you guys already kinda answered this? i think that whitebridge is powerwrought metal.. that is what i think.. i also think thom didn't want to fight a fade with a sword.. and i think that thom therefor ran into the fade and battled him on the ground so the halfdrawn blade meets with the bridge and we have some nice blue flashes going off.. it makes sense.. imo that is..

charliec: 2004-04-23

**Most townsfolk don't run into fades very often(if ever)**

Understatement of the century!!

The thing is though, with their faces covered fades can pass for human... Shadar Haran is a full foot taller, it's a big difference.

**As for the height, I'm don't believe he was as tall back then**

Huh? but there is NO evidence for this.

charliec: 2004-04-23

oops, forgot a bit:

** i think that whitebridge is powerwrought metal... it makes sense.. imo that is..**

a) Whitebridge is not metallic, it seems glassy in apearance.

b) the fight didn't happen on the bridge, but in the town square.

Brendan Reborn: 2004-04-23

AS much as I want to agree with you about whitebridge being power-wrought and causing the flash, I can't. The bridge was made with the power, but I'm pretty sure they were off the bridge before the fade found them. They came out of the alley on there way to caemlyn. It's the best explanation I've heard so far though.

Davian93: 2004-04-23

****i also think thom didn't want to fight a fade with a sword.. and i think that thom therefor ran into the fade and battled him on the ground so the halfdrawn blade meets with the bridge and we have some nice blue flashes going off.. it makes sense.. imo that is.. *****

One minor problem with that is that they were in the square not on whitebridge itself.

"The Fade was just as startled. Its leisurely pace faltered in mid-stride. Its hand swept toward the hilt of the black sword hanging at its waist, but the gleeman's long legs covered the distance quickly. Thom crashed into the Myrddraal before the black blade was half drawn, and both went down in a thrashing heap. The few people still in the square fled."

So, whitebridge being power wrought wouldnt matter since they werent on it.

HappyFade: 2004-04-24

"Most townsfolk don't run into fades very often(if ever)"

Understatement of the century!!

The thing is though, with their faces covered fades can pass for human... Shadar Haran is a full foot taller, it's a big difference."

Charliec,

You seem to agree that those who witnessed the event(ie the townsfolk around) have no basis on which to judge a fades height(given that you said my statement was an understatement, and since, as you said, fades can usually move in towns unnoticed). So I ask again, how are they going to notice the height difference as something peculiar in a fade when they have no base of reference besides tall tales?

"**As for the height, I'm don't believe he was as tall back then**

Huh? but there is NO evidence for this.

Take a look in TDR prologue.

Carridin runs into a fade which laughs and smiles.

Not only that, but Carridin notes it is no taller than most men.

Hmmm... I thought fades were supposed to be the height of a tall man, which would make them taller than most men(just not the tall ones), and every fade is alike, as if poured in the same mould(except SH). This fade seems a little short of the mark for some reason.

And no other fades beside SH should be able to laugh or smile, as we've heard time and again.

Callandor: 2004-04-24

**You seem to agree that those who witnessed the event(ie the townsfolk around) have no basis on which to judge a fades height(given that you said my statement was an understatement, and since, as you said, fades can usually move in towns unnoticed). So I ask again, how are they going to notice the height difference as something peculiar in a fade when they have no base of reference besides tall tales?**

Great, wonderful, townfolk are morons; point being, Rand and Mat saw the Fade too, both Rand and Mat have seen Fades before and would notice an entire foot more of height. It was not Shaidar Haran.

And for anyone doubting the Fade Blade contact, or power-wrought contact:

**Q: Do Myrddraal blades flash blue lightning regardless of the blades they strike? Or does it require a power wrought blade? If so, why do the two Fades fighting in the Stone make the flashes?

A: myrdraal blades produce the blue lightning only when the strike their own kind of blade or a blade wrought with the OP; not simple steel.**

Vimmzy: 2004-04-25

ok, sorry my bad.. let say the fade felt like doing some hand to hand combat and threw his sword so that it landed on the bridge

... or lets not say that..

well, then it is still a mystery. ;D

charliec: 2004-04-25

** And no other fades beside SH should be able to laugh or smile, as we've heard time and again. **

Where does that come from?

As for noticing the height... Rand/Mat would probably have. Of course it's impossible to be conclusive here... I just don't see any reason to think it's Shadar Haran

Callandor: 2004-04-25

**ok, sorry my bad.. let say the fade felt like doing some hand to hand combat and threw his sword so that it landed on the bridge**

The Fade only got his sword about half-way out ;).

HappyFade: 2004-04-26

"Great, wonderful, townfolk are morons; point being, Rand and Mat saw the Fade too, both Rand and Mat have seen Fades before and would notice an entire foot more of height."

Firstly, I don't see how they would notice an extra foot of height if SH weren't an extra foot taller than the other fades back then(or did you miss the latter part of my last post?).

But let's assume, for the sake of your argument, that SH was as tall back then as we know him from LOC onwards.

Now Rand and Mat have, as you pointed out seen fades before, but I'll just focus on Rand for now(since he seems to run into more).

In Ch1, Rand sees a fade. It is twenty spans back when he sees it, and is on horseback. Rand also has trouble assuming the void.

The distance and use of horseback could make it hard to determine an exact height of the fade. And also with the trouble with the void, could this also be SH?(I'm not so sure, but I thought it worth mentioning)

Again on Wintersnight Rand sees the fade going back and forth along the road on horseback while he huddled in the woods with Tam. No close up looks.

The next time Rand sees a fade(not counting nightmares) is in Baerlon. As I mentioned before, this fade smiles and tells Rand he belongs to the DO(sounds like SH to me). This time the fade comes right up to Rand.

On the Camelyn road, only one fade gets somewhat close. Lan takes care of this while Rand does his best to keep track of Egwene and fight off trollocs that are trying to rope him. Moraine blast a bunch of trollocs and three fades that are rushing in from around 100 spans away.

In SL, a fade and some trollocs chase Rand through part of SL before being consumed by Mashadar.

Out of all these encounters, Rand could have got a good impression of the Baerlon fades height, but only a vague impression of the heights of the other fades on horseback which he glimpsed from a distance.

Now, to Whitebridge. The fade was under 20 paces away when Rand and Mat began to run.

This fade is on foot, and was getting close, so they could very well be able to tell whether it was approximately 6 feet tall or whether it was more like 7 feet tall. I don't dispute that.

But why would you expect them to care or take note of this extra height? Each of these early times Rand sees a fade he is drawn it by it's gaze and notices nearly nothing else. And as far as Rand or Mat know, fades can and do range in height(as they havn't seen many close enough to make good comparisons).

So again, I ask the question: Who is going to notice the height as being out of the ordinary for a fade?

And I repeat, this is all under the assumption that SH was tall back then, which I am only assuming for the sake of your argument, and which I have already shown may not be the case.

heronblade: 2004-04-26

Maybe thoms knives were made from fade steel then. makes anout as much sense as anything else does.

HappyFade: 2004-04-26

Charliec, about the smiling/laughing

BWB(Ch7)

Where trollocs have a vile and violent sense of humor, Myrddraal have none.

Where most Myrddraal are the height of a tall man, Shaidar Haran stands taller by several feet, towering head and shoulders above man and Halfman alike. It's demeanor is one of arrogance, rather then servitude, even to the point of commanding Forsaken, and it has evinced a dark sense of humour, something previously unknown among Myrddraal.

LOC(prologue)(Osan'gar's point of view)

Osangar would have thought the Myrddraal's bloodless lips twitched in a smile, except that was impossible, here or anywhere. Even trollocs had a sense of humour, if a vile a violent one, but not Myrddraal.

...

The halfman did smile then. It was like seeing death smile.

ACOS(Ch25)(Moghidien's point of view)

Shaidar Haran chuckled, a rasp of dried cracked leather. That was another difference with this Myrddraal. Far more cruel than Trollocs, who were merely bloodthirsty, Myrddraal were cold and dispassionate in it. Shaidar Haran often showed amusement though.

APOD(Ch12)(Graendal's point of view)

"Should I call you Great Master, or would you prefer another title? I would not feel comfortable addressing even the Great Lord's hand as I would him."

Shockingly, the Myrddraal laughed. It sounded like ice crumbling. Myrddraal never laughed.

Any other questions?

dragonsceptor: 2004-04-27

So where exactly does it say the Fade in WhiteBridge smiled? I just reread the section from when they got off the boat to Rand and Mat's escape from WhiteBridge and I did not see anything that mentions the Fade smiling. So, SH can smile...so what. What does that prove if the fade in whitebridge did not smile.

Anubis: 2004-04-27

i dont remember where this was mentioned, but all fades look exactly the same. with the exception of shaidar haran.

HappyFade: 2004-04-27

dragonsceptor,

You are quite right, the fade doesn't smile in the Whitebridge scene.

The reason smiling came up was in regards to other early encounters with fades that do smile(I cited the Baerlon fade(Rand first close encounter with a fade), and the fade that visits Carridin(which shows that this smiley fade is not as tall as SH is in later books) in response to others question/problems with my theory; there are several smiling fade encounters I have yet to mention)

The reason why I posted the previous quotes was to show that the only fade able to laugh or smile is SH(again, this was merely to answer others questions about my theory... I'm sorry if their questions drew me away from the Thom encounter), and hence the early encounters with smiling/laughing fades shows that SH was around in the early books(and further, from the Carridin scene, that SH was not super tall back then),

Now, with the knowledge that SH has been kicking around in the early books, and with these blue sparks that seem to defy any other explanation, is it so hard to believe it could have been SH?

Note: For those who can't accept that SH has been around for that long (ie those who think SH is under two years old), who will search the tomes to find a problem with my “smiling fade theory”, I'll make it easy on ya. Take a look in TSR, Ch 37.

I'll explain the answer to that problem if/when someone reads the section and makes the obvious objection.

Callandor: 2004-04-27

**So again, I ask the question: Who is going to notice the height as being out of the ordinary for a fade?**

Hate to bring this up yet again, the Forsaken notice his height difference immediately; yes, yes, they are quite used to Myrddraal, but as you said, there are several examples of Rand seeing Myrddraal, and he can compare and contrast. The fact that he was further away in some instances, should allow him to see the profile without worring about the fear attack or at lest lessened.

HappyFade: 2004-04-27

Again, for Callandor's sake I shall assume SH was as tall back then as he is from LOC onwards.

I've listed Rand's prewhitebridge fade encounters out for you already.

I see only four occasions when he was close enough to a fade to get a feel for their height.

1] the fade in TEOTW Ch1

2] the baerlon fade

3] the fade lan fights before entering SL

4] the fade that chases Rand in SL

Now, the baerlon fade smiles, making it SH.

And I also believe that the fade Rand sees in Ch 1 is also SH(though the evidence is less compelling).

If you read the encounters over, you'll see how brief each is, and how Rand barely even looks at the fades 3] and 4] I mentioned(during encounter 3] Rand was busy fighting off trollocs, and in 4] he is busy looking ahead, trying to gallop his horse through SL without running strait into Mashadar).

Then coming to Whitebridge, of Rand's encounters with fades so far, 1 or even 2 of the 4 encounters is with the same fade as I claim he meets in Whitebridge.

Rand's not going to think something is strange with this fades height if he has seen fades of the exact same height before.

charliec: 2004-04-28

I still contend against this... and just the absence of a sense of humour doesn't make it impossible to smile. Don't you often smile without thinking something is funny? Do half-men have no senses of satisfaction, or pleasure? We have heard them scream in agony, and look afraid, so why not smile in anticipation or enjoyment of a moment such as capturing Rand for the DO?

Shadar Haran's smile is surprising not in itself, but because it demonstrates humour.

Anubis: 2004-04-28

im sorry, i dont recall any fades (other then shaidar haran) smiling, so im not gonna buy it without a strong quote.

HappyFade: 2004-04-28

Charliec, I'll repeat one of my quotes for you

“Osangar would have thought the Myrddraal's bloodless lips twitched in a smile, except that was impossible, here or anywhere.”

He thinks a smile in itself is IMPOSSIBLE for a fade to do.

Note that Osangar is Aginor who created most, if not all, shadowspawn and has studies fades in more depth than anyone else. So if anyone would, he would.

Anubis, to satisfy your hunger to see smiling fades:

TeotW(Ch 17)(Rand's point of view)

The Fade glided closer, in no hurry. Its strides had a sinuous, deadly grace, like a viper, the resemblance emphasized by the overlapping black plates of armor down its chest. Thin, blood- less lips curved in a cruel smile, made more mocking by the smooth, pale skin where exes should have been.

TGH(prologue)(Carridin=Bors point of view)

The smooth white face swiveled, regarding them all one by one, it seemed. A visible shiver ran through them under that eyeless look. Thin, bloodless lips quirked in what might almost have been a smile as, one by one, the masked ones tried to press back into the crowd, milling to avoid that gaze.

TGH(Ch6)(Rand's point of view)

The Fade moved with viperous grace, the serpent illusion heightened by the armor of black, overlapping plates that covered its chest. It turned, and that pale, eyeless face studied Rand. It started toward him, smiling a bloodless smile, not hurrying. It had no need to hurry for one man alone.

TDR(prologue)(Carridin's=Bor's point of view)

The Halfman's bloodless lips quirked in a smile. “Where there is shadow, there may I go.”

Its voice sounded like a snake rustling through dead leaves. “I like to keep a watch on all those who serve me.” ”

...

“I serve the Great Lord of the Dark, as you

do. We both serve.”

“If you wish to see it so.” The Myrddraal laughed, a sound that made Carridin's bones shiver.

Will that be enough, or should I go on?

HappyFade: 2004-04-28

Charliec,

here's another quote(besides the 4 I already gave in regards to fades and humour/smiling)

COT, Ch21 (Alviarin's POV)

The Myrddraal looked at her and smiled. Lurks never smiled. Never.

charliec: 2004-04-28

**Take a look in TSR, Ch 37**

What are you referring to here? Rand having trouble making his sword?

There's a great problem with your idea in there...

"He thrust his sword into the myrddraal's chest and knew he was going to die when it did not fall, but GRINNED with those bloodless lips..." it then gets killed by Aiel arrows.

Davian93: 2004-04-28

****i dont recall any fades (other then shaidar haran) smiling****

First of all, we're not really introduced to that many fades in the course of the books.

Secondly, lack of other known fades smiling does not mean that the fade in Whitebridge is SH. We do know that the Forsaken first start meeting SH around the beginning of LoC which is a while down the road from tEotW. So, we are to believe that even though he doesnt arrive on the scene until LoC, this fade in Whitebridge is SH. Sorry, I just cant buy that. There is no evidence to prove or disprove that he is, but still, I think we would have gotten some indication that SH was on the loose before LoC. A smile does not always indicate humor so it is not proof one way or the other of this fade being SH, Superfade.

HappyFade: 2004-04-28

**Take a look in TSR, Ch 37**

There's a great problem with your idea in there...

"He thrust his sword into the myrddraal's chest and knew he was going to die when it did not fall, but GRINNED with those bloodless lips..." it then gets killed by Aiel arrows.

Good good. I knew someone would find that problem if I told them exactly where to look (people usually find it eventually, but I thought telling you where to look would speed things up a little).

So the obvious objection I was referring to is,

How can the smiling fade be SH if it dies in TSR?

My answer: transmigration.

We all know that the DO does reuse the servants who are loyal, even some which are disobedient(like Lanfear). So why not his head fade?

I believe that this smiley fades ties to the DO aren't as strong as SH's are later on, but I do believe he has been twisted somewhat by Ishy or the DO itself to give him his peculiar personality, and has powers beyond that of an ordinary fade.

We see this smiley fade on many important jobs.

He trails the taveren throughout TEOTW, he is in a commanding position (just under Ishy) in the DF meeting, he is there when Fain is released and the Horn is stolen, he carries of Carridin's cousin (perhaps to act as a body for Arangar?), ...

When he is finally killed, in TSR, I believe the DO snatched up his soul and placed it in another fades body (note: one of the big things slowing down the DO's transmigrations is the supply of bodies. The DO has no ready supply of human bodies on hand to choose from, but there are plenty of fades around, so it should not cause too much problems)

I am not claiming that he was brought back overnight, but the 100 days from when smiley dies and SH appears should be enough time, in my opinion.

I think after transmigrated, SH swore deeper oaths to the DO, giving him the powers/authority we see command in the later books.

I think his apparent height is nothing more than an illusion. We've seen him alter his height in COT, and I doubt he was really growing there. I don't see why his large stature compared to other fades cannot be explained by the exact same reason: an illusion to cause fear beyond that of a regular fade.

Elder Haman: 2004-04-28

Okay, I know this theory is posted under a different title. Underwhich I summed up the arguements as follows:

1) Thom's daggers are Power-wrought

Advantages: Matches the blue falshes we have seen before; fits well; Thom's knives are "Special"

Disadvantages: The Fade hasn't drawn his blade yet, so it's unlikely the blades could have met; The blue flashes seem to be linked to Thom's screams of pain; Thom's daggers are not power-wrought, (though we don't know which dagers he's reffering to).

2) Rand unknowingly channeled

Advantages: Can explain anything

Disadvantages: Rand doesn't get sick afterwards; If he channeled why didn't it kill the Fade?

3) It's a special ability of Fades used when engaging in hand-to-hand combat

Advantages: Fits the situation, timing, and Thom's screams of pain

Disadvantage: We've never seen another occasion of a Fade in unarmed combat being tackled so we have no ability to make a comparision

I still think my idea is correct, (#3, my idea since I'm the one who suggested it), but the others could be right.

As for these smiling Fades, don't start seeing SH everywhere. A Fade can smile- they have the physical ability- it's just said that they don't have the emotion of amusement, and so they don't smile in amusement. However, a Fade may have learned that smiling can disquiet a foe, and since Fades are cunning, one might use a smile as a weapon in order to instil fear in an opponent.

HappyFade: 2004-04-28

“There is no evidence to prove or disprove that he is, but still, I think we would have gotten some indication that SH was on the loose before LoC.”

I've made direct quotes from those who know the most about fades saying they never smile or laugh(SH being the ONLY known exception) and more quotes showing a high ranking fade which goes around smiling and laughing.

There is also the mysterious blue sparks, and several occasions when Rand cannot assume the void around this fade(which again, this SH theory seems to explain).

If a smiling laughing fade who seems able to summon blue sparks and block channelers doesn't give you an indication of SH, then I'm not sure what will besides a signed letter from RJ himself.

But I ask you, Davian(or anyone), where is SH in the early books then?

Fade bodies don't just appear from nowhere, they are born and grow just like humans.

The only way SH could be around in LOC but not in any earlier book was if he did just appear from nowhere, full grown. So, SH must have been around earlier. The question then arrives, did he have any role?

Just to make sure I havn't lost you already(as many seem confused), here is an analogy.

Cadsuane isn't mentioned till later in the books, yet she must have been somewhere in Randland during the early books.

Now suppose one looked through the early books and noticed an unnamed AS with a bunch of ter'angreal in her hair that showed up several times doing several things.

We would have no clue who she is until we later found out who Cadsuane was, and that Cadsuane does have a bunch of ter'angreal that she carries in her hair.

Now, on rereading, would you fervently claim that the AS couldn't be Cadsuane even if we were told over and over that the ONLY AS who carries ter'angreal in her hair was Cadsuane?

Again, I'll repeat what we are told about fades:

Lurks never smiled. Never.

(smiling) was impossible

Myrddraal never laughed.

And I'll remind us all of one of the several early encounters I mentioned

TDR(prologue)

The Halfman's bloodless lips quirked in a smile.

...

The Myrddraal laughed, a sound that made Carridin's bones shiver.

charliec: 2004-04-29

Oh my life!

I'm curious... GLotD, what do you think of this?

Let's see if we can drag the finns, Lanfear, and ta'veren into the causes for Shadar Haran as well as the Dark One, Ishy and transmigration.

This is a ludicrously convoluted idea, and basically says that every time we see a fade doing something important it's Shadar Haran, even if that fade dies.

RJ has said that the ONLY reason the DO has started transmigrating souls is because of a limited supply of capable servants to be forsaken... but with fades, as you have observed there is no such limited supply.

You claim these early apparitions of Shadar Haran were useful to the DO because of their loyalty and extra powers... but what evidence do we have that these fades were any more loyal than all the others? and what powers have they displayed (beyond the earth-shattering ability to move their lips)?

This is all based on the smiling, but we've already pointed out that the problem with Shadar Haran could be that he is displaying Humour (which fits with the incredulity in each quote), and that plenty of fades through the book have displayed other emotions (fear usually), so why not pleasure/satisfaction?

Let's both stop hijacking, and let people get back to the topic on hand, write this idea up in a separate theory, and we can discuss it there.

charliec: 2004-04-29

**) It's a special ability of Fades used when engaging in hand-to-hand combat

Advantages: Fits the situation, timing, and Thom's screams of pain

Disadvantage: We've never seen another occasion of a Fade in unarmed combat being tackled so we have no ability to make a comparision

I still think my idea is correct, (#3, my idea since I'm the one who suggested it), but the others could be right.**

Aww Haman, I thought I'd come up with that one... hey hum, once again I'm pipped to the post, at least we're in agreement that it's the most likely possibility (even the Shadar Haran camp agrees with that ;) )

Brendan Reborn: 2004-04-29

One thing to suggest that Rand channeled is the sicknesses afterwards. After whitebridge they go on and meet Gode(I think it's ishy) and rand channels. Now why does rand get sick not once, but TWICE. Here's evidence:

Pg 141 "The Dark Waits"

Mat talking: "No.Notmuch. Not unless I look almost right at the sun, anyway. What about you? Are you feeling better?"

The other one is at the Queens Man where the girl attempts to kill mat.

Now I ask, why would Rand have gotten sick twice? Was it from the same incident? That is unlikely because it is known that the sickness doesn't last for long. Now the first sickness could have been for channeling at whitebridge, and the second was for channeling at Gode.

Makes perfect sense to me!

HappyFade: 2004-04-29

Yep the SH camp(me, myself, and I) are behind you there.

As for Rand channelling back then, I think I mentioned that Rand couldn't even assume the void at Whitebride(which is the way he usually embraces the source). Not only that, but I think you have to be able to see what you are channelling, while Rand was facing and running the other way from where the sparks(though I could be mistaken here).

Sorry for “highjacking”, my first post summed up all I said without all the depth of quotes that people have ASKED me to go into. But, as it is being requested, I'll try to quiet down some after this post(besides I think I've posted most of the info regarding my theory).

So, in people's opinion, smiling shows no humour. Your going to also have to claim that laughing shows no evidence of humour as well. What will be next, claiming that writing a sitcom shows no humour. Where's it going to end?

How about if there were no smiles or laughs? Is there still anything tying together the events which I claim SH makes an early appearance?

Let's see, the fade oversees the DF meeting in TGH, giving Carridin a particularly nasty stare. Then later, he shows up to hassle Carridin, and gives him orders. As Carridin never does what he is supposed to, we learn the fade kills many of Carridin's relatives, and carries off his cousin(for sexual reprieve perhaps, like the SH-Moggy incident, or maybe just as a suitable body for transmigration). But, just after the fade dies in TSR, the killings stop and it isn't long till another person(Liandrin) finds Carridin and starts giving him orders.

So even without looking a the smiles(and laughter) it doesn't seem too far fetched that this is the same fade in these events. Unless we want to chock it up to coincidence that the fade knew the name he used at the DF meeting and coincidence that the fade that was bugging him disappear when smiley died.

One can see he perfoming a similar role as we know SH perform: keeping DF's in line.

Whereas later, he focuses on the forsaken, in these early books(before the forsaken, save Ishy, were even out) he looked over other higher ranking DF's (besides all this Carridin stuff and the DF meeting, check out how Moraine describes a particularly cruel fade that Fain ran into(in Baerlon I believe).

All the other events when I believe the early SH is around(Baerlon, Whitebridge, Fal Dara, Imre Stand) are also easily strung together. In those SH is merely keeping close to the taveren.

As to the transmigration, the DO seems to transmigrate those who seem of good use.

Let me ask you, does SH(as we know him from LOC onwards) seem to be of any use to the DO?

The reasons fades are useful is for their fear (that is how they control trollocs and the like). Smiling and laughing coming from a fade(as I've noted several times) drives this fear into even the BA head and the forsaken(even though regular fades seem to NEVER caused such a reaction). If the DO has a special fade that can do this, then when the need becomes apparent(ie when the forsaken like Lanfear and Asmodean start disobeying), then why not use his special fade. And if his special fade just happened to get killed at that time(which was one of Mat's lucky lucky breaks), why wouldn't he transmigrate?

And why the sudden disappearance of all smiling fades in the times between the Imre Stand chapter of TSR and the prologue of LOC... coincidence? And why no other smiling fades besides SH from then on?

Again, sorry for the “highjacking.”

But after eliminating Thom and Rand from the causes of the flashes, there isn't much else to theorize about besides the fade.

Great Lord of the Dark: 2004-04-29

I'm pretty much in agreement (most days) that the Fade from Book 3 prologue was Shaidar Haran, just cuz of the quote "I like to keep an eye on all who serve me" The smiling being the other giveaway. I've proposed the same here in the past, and been shot down by 'those who know better' but they don't necessarily, just because it's not a popular opinion. The main thing being that it screws with other theories they have, and teh concepts that they've convinced tehmselves are true.

example: now I have to re-evaluate Moridin killed Asmodean because the motive of the DO ordering a hit has been disproven by a wotmania interview. Maybe the theory can still stand, maybe not.

But this theory about early fades being SH, definitely still stands in my opinion.

Elder Haman: 2004-04-29

Well charliec, I remember coming up with the theory of the Fade using one of it's "tricks" independently, but I see no reason why you couldn't have done the same. So I am perfectly willing to share authorship with you for that theory.

As for this "Smiling Fade" theory, I'm begining to reconsider, at least parts of it. The Fade in the prolouge to TGH and who messes with Carigan in TDR might, MIGHT, be an early SH, prehaps before fully becoming the Dark One's avatar, thus it's abilities are undeveloped, and it's height is not yet at it's full growth. However, I do not buy the idea that all these smiling Fades were SH. The reason the killings of Carigan's relatives stopped was because Ishmael died- not because the Fade died. I figure that "Grinning" Fade might really have been grimacing, which was mistaken for grin by the charactor. I do not see how SH could be killed and then suddenly reappear.

Callandor: 2004-04-29

**I've made direct quotes from those who know the most about fades saying they never smile or laugh(SH being the ONLY known exception) and more quotes showing a high ranking fade which goes around smiling and laughing.**

Please quote where there is a distinction between a regular Fade and a high-ranking Fade.

And if you say SH, you've proven nothing since he is the only "SuperFade" we have seen.

**There is also the mysterious blue sparks, and several occasions when Rand cannot assume the void around this fade(which again, this SH theory seems to explain).**

Mysterious? MYSTERIOUS?! There is absolutely NOTHING mysterious about them at all! The blue-sparks are caused by Fade-blades or Power-wrought blades coming in contact with each other. There are several examples in the books, and a Robert Jordan confirmation. Quit saying it is a mystery; it is not.

And about the Void, could you quote an example past the time when Rand can embrace saidin at will, everytime (past TFOH)? The Eye of the World cannot be used as an example of this, because Rand did not know he was a channeler at the time, hence did not rely on concious channeling.

For everyone claiming Rand channeled; WOT FAQ:

**1. OP use: cleansing Bela: [TEOTW: 11, The Road to Taren Ferry, 125]

Reaction: Baerlon encounter with the Children of the Light, [TEOTW: 15, Strangers and Friends, 186-190]

Time: seven days.

2. OP use: Hitting Trolloc with the boom of Domon's boat. [TEOTW: 20, Dust on the Wind, 258-259]

Reaction: Mast/trapeze stunt on Bayle Domon's boat [TEOTW: 24, Flight Down the Arinelle, 301-303]

Time: four days.

3. OP use: calling lightning to escape the inn in Four Kings [TEOTW: 32, Four Kings in Shadow, 407]

Reaction: fever/chills at the inn in Market Sheran. [TEOTW: 33, The Dark Waits, 423-426]

Time: two days.

4. OP use: at the Eye of the World.

Reaction: Forgetfulness, others?

Time: nearly instantaneous.**

No others.

Brendan Reborn: 2004-04-29

Great Lord of The dark, I think that Moridin did kill Asmo as well. Actually, I think that he has him in a mind trap. The quote said "and death took him" death being moridin and he took him to shayol ghul to put him in a mind trap. Sorry it's so off topic. Just thought I'd bring it up.

Alverin: 2004-04-30

Okay.. "the blue flashes came before Thom had time to reach the fade"

Could it not be that he aimed for the fades hand? If he'd hit, then the fade would have to draw the blade with the other hand, which I think would be akward and a little hard..

But since fade are quite fast, maybe it had time to draw the sword long enough so the blade missed the hand and hit the fades blade, thus it would make the blue flashes before Thom reach it..

Just mine thoughts.

charliec: 2004-04-30

**What will be next, claiming that writing a sitcom shows no humour.**

You say that like it would surprise you! I don't know which sitcoms you're seeing ;)

Role on this theory...

Anubis: 2004-04-30

brendan, stay on topic and read the asmodeans killer is slayer. this has been covered already and has no place here.

Callandor: 2004-04-30

** Actually, I think that he has him in a mind trap. The quote said "and death took him" death being moridin and he took him to shayol ghul to put him in a mind trap. Sorry it's so off topic. Just thought I'd bring it up**

Whoever killed Asmodean, one fact is true: Asmodean is in fact dead. He is not kidnapped or held hostage anywhere. He is dead.

Also, the two mindtraps have already been identified to who they belong to: Moggy and Cyndane (aka Lanfear).

HappyFade: 2004-05-01

Just to note: I'll try to refer to my fade of interest as Smiley before he dies in TSR, and as Shaidar Haran (SH) in his transmigrated form from LOC onwards.

“Please quote where there is a distinction between a regular Fade and a high-ranking Fade.”

My distinction is roughly thus: A low ranking fade does little else then lead his little pack of trollocs into battle, whereas a high ranking fade has subtler missions, and goes around ordering DF's. The distinction could be purely imaginary, as, as far as we are told, fades have no such rank(besides SH clearly being top dog) and share all the missions among themselves equivalently. Or perhaps, the DO(or Ishy... whomever is giving the orders) finds some of his servants suited to particular tasks. Seeing Smiley around Fain, Carridin, and Ingtar gives me the sense that he an important fade... I'm wondering if we see smiley with Liandrin at any other point than the DF meeting... hmmm I should really read some more. (note: we never see a smiling fade with fain, but from what we hear about fain's travels through Moraine makes me think they've met... I'll look for the quotes if one wishes me to)

“And if you say SH, you've proven nothing since he is the only "SuperFade" we have seen.”

I'll take SuperFade as meaning one which can laugh and smile, until you define otherwise.

With this, SH is the only superfade we've seen(besides Smiley), the only superfade Demandred's seen, the only superfade Moghieden's seen, the only superfade either of the Osangar has seen, ...

All the quotes from the book coming from those knowledgeable about fades seem to agree that SH is the ONLY superfade. If you are suggesting the early smiley fade is another super fade, but not SH, then I ask for you to provide some evidence suggesting so. The only thing which suggests they're different is their height(and SH has changed his height before our very eyes in COT).

“Mysterious? MYSTERIOUS?! There is absolutely NOTHING mysterious about them at all! The blue-sparks are caused by Fade-blades or Power-wrought blades coming in contact with each other.”

Ok, so what happened, the fade took out his blade(though the books tell us it was only half out), broke it in half, and clashed the two pieces together to make the sparks?

Either show me where the Power-wrought blade is or where the other Fade-blade is and then your explanation could make sense. Thom had lost his best blades prior (and answers from RJ on this issue are conflicting at best so I'm not considering them as admissible until he actually comes out and says which previous answers are wrong). If you have some quote from the books showing that Thom had some power wrought weapons, let us know.

“And about the Void, could you quote an example past the time when Rand can embrace saidin at will, everytime (past TFOH)?”

I'll keep and eye open, though I've yet to fully reread any of the books besides TEOTW (though I reread scattered scenes once and a while). For now, feel free to ignore my void stuff, it not being properly supported, but keep it in mind for a rainy day(when I get a chance to open the right book to the right place).

“You say that like it would surprise you! I don't know which sitcoms you're seeing ;)”

I only watch the good ones... so none.

But if Smiley/SH was working on a sitcom, I'd probably have to tune in.

Callandor: 2004-05-02

**The distinction could be purely imaginary, as, as far as we are told, fades have no such rank(besides SH clearly being top dog) and share all the missions among themselves equivalently.**

There is no could be there. All Fades are on the same level: Fades. Only exception is Shaidar Haran.

**Ok, so what happened, the fade took out his blade(though the books tell us it was only half out), broke it in half, and clashed the two pieces together to make the sparks?**

No, the Fade never got his blade out. Most likely conclusion is Thom had daggers which were power-wrought, and they came into contact with the half-drawn Fade blade which produced the flash.

**Thom had lost his best blades prior (and answers from RJ on this issue are conflicting at best so I'm not considering them as admissible until he actually comes out and says which previous answers are wrong). If you have some quote from the books showing that Thom had some power wrought weapons, let us know.**

There is one. Thom lost his best knives in Shadar Logoth; he drew daggers in Whitebridge. The distinction was made in above posts.

Thom having daggers is much, much, more likely then a regular Fade having powers to create a blue-flash, which just happens to be so similar to power-wrought contact that it is quite obvious, for simple reasons of the numbers we have seen so far.

charliec: 2004-05-02

**But if Smiley/SH was working on a sitcom, I'd probably have to tune in.**

If fades are in sitcoms it works against your argument... I don't think I've seen any of the 'actors' portraying convincing emotion in some time ;)...

Back to the topic in hand, as Elder Haman has said we've got three real explanations so far for how the blue flashes arose, of which some trick by the fade seems most probable... has anyone actually got anything to add on this?

Him-who-may: 2004-05-03

A point here but I'll leave you all to decide how relevent.

Although the Fade only got his blade 1/2 out when he first crashed into Thom once they were "out of sight" there was a blue flash THEN followed by a scream of pain from Thom.

Now we known from Thom's limp injury that the Fade got its blade out (Moiraine says its a fade wound herself) and the fire did not start until after Rand and Mat had left the town, or at least not became noticeable. But according to Thom's tale the Fade stabbed him as soon as it got up and then left after the boys.

So If the fight WAS this quick as Thom suggests what caused the fire? Fleeing villagers?

If the fire was caused by some trick by the Fade then why? According to Thom he was incapacitated so quickly using a trick was hardly nessercary.

If these two above points mean Thom was lying (which i am not suggesting. I am just speculating) then why would he lie? What is he trying to hide?

Is it in any way possile that Thom killed the Fade, which resulted in fire occuring, and wanted nobody to know about it? But if this was true then it would suggest he could channel which RJ has already denied.

Just a few points to throw around.

dragonsceptor: 2004-05-03

**Thom having daggers is much, much, more likely then a regular Fade having powers to create a blue-flash, which just happens to be so similar to power-wrought contact that it is quite obvious, for simple reasons of the numbers we have seen so far.**

I have a nitpick. I recently reread this section. When I read it, it the boys were running away and were startled by a blue flash and turned around to look. Now, I know power wrought blades will produce blue sparks when coming into contact with a fade blade. My question is, how does blue sparks make a blue flash bright enough for the boys to see while running away?

My money is on a Fade power. It seems the most likely. Unless this is a mixup by RJ again.

dragonsceptor: 2004-05-03

Do you have a quote saying that Moiraine confirmed Thom's injuries were from a Fade blade? If I remember right, he avoided the question quite adeptly and never came back to it.

Callandor: 2004-05-03

**When I read it, it the boys were running away and were startled by a blue flash and turned around to look.**

**TITLE: Eye of the World

CHAPTER: 26 - Whitebridge

The Fade was just as startled. Its leisurely pace faltered in mid-stride. Its hand swept toward the hilt of the black sword hanging at its waist, but the gleeman's long legs covered the distance quickly. Thom crashed into the Myrddraal before the black blade was half drawn, and both went down in a thrashing heap. The few people still in the square fled.

"RUN!" The air in the square flashed an eye-searing blue, and Thom began to scream, but even in the middle of the scream he managed a word. "RUN!"**

Then they run. Order of events:

1. Fade contacts Rand, Mat, and Thom.

2. Thom draws his daggers and charges the Fade.

3. Fade about half-draws his sword.

4. Thom crashes into the Fade.

5. Blue flash seen.

6. Rand and Mat flee.

charliec: 2004-05-04

Him-who-may, the suggestion is that the flashes were fade powers, and the fire was caused in the turmoil and panic in the town because of the fight.

Do you have a quote for Thom saying the fade stabbed him? I doubt that's what happened for the simple reason that Thom's still alive, fade wounds kill.

charliec: 2004-05-04

The point about the flashes stands though- they are "eye searing" that's got to mean VERY bright, like burning magnesium perhaps...

IIRC flashes during combat aren't described as being so intense.

HappyFade: 2004-05-04

um Callandor... Rand and Mat were running before you claim

look at the three paragraphs preceding the ones you quoted

Thom tells them to run... and they do... then Thom charges into the fade while still telling them to run... and they continue to run.

Elder Haman: 2004-05-04

Some good points there in the chronology- thanks for the full quote. Notice two points- the blue light in the square seems to be slightly different in description (not necessarily, but maybe), and Thom's scream seems to be caused by the Blue Flash (while the blue sparks in examples of power-wrought blades meeting Myrddraal blades do not cause pain).

The problems with the simple explaination of power wrought daggers are:

1) RJ says Thom's daggers are not power wrought

2) RJ says "Thom's best knives are very special", but Thom lost his best knives before reaching Whitebridge. (Note RJ does not say Thom's daggers are very special).

Also, as furthur evidence that Fades are able to use "tricks", a recent RJ quote:

Q: Ishamael's corpse in The Dragon Reborn had only pits where his eyes and mouth once were. Was this a result of the True Power? If this is true, is the True Power the reason that Fades have no eyes, but some supernatural abilities?

A: The True Power is reason that Ishamael's corpse had no eyes, just as it was the reason that his eyes had been caverns of flame, but it not precisely the reason that Fades have no eyes. The True Power as well as the One Power was used in creation of Trollocs, which proved to be uncontrollable and useless as soldiers until the first Myrddraal were born, throwbacks to the human stock used in creating Trollocs, but twisted by the inclusion of the True Power in making Trollocs.

I submit that this "twisting" by the True Power gives Fades these powers. (note that according to Lan a Fade could kill the weakest Aes Sedai by itself, so they must have some powers other than moving between shadows).

dragonsceptor: 2004-05-04

Thank you for the quote Callendor. It appears I was mistaken in my perception of them having to look back. Still, my question still remains:

How do blue sparks make a "seering" blue flash?

When I think of these sparks, I'm imagining something similiar to flint and steel, except blue. This does not seem like it would create a "seering" flash. Is there another interpration of "sparks" that would create a "seering" flash?

Brendan Reborn: 2004-05-04

Callandor is right, the kids did see the fight, and thom had daggers, not his knives.

Callandor: 2004-05-04

**um Callandor... Rand and Mat were running before you claim

look at the three paragraphs preceding the ones you quoted

Thom tells them to run... and they do... then Thom charges into the fade while still telling them to

Flinn Sedai: 2004-05-04

**I submit that this "twisting" by the True Power gives Fades these powers. (note that according to Lan a Fade could kill the weakest Aes Sedai by itself, so they must have some powers other than moving between shadows). **

What Lan said was that any Aes Sedai could take a Fade on by herself, except maybe the weakest Aes Sedai.

Nae-blis: 2004-05-05

Just an idea here, but we all know that Rand has an uncanny ability (especially in the first 2 books) for his strong thoughts to become reality, as example is him cleansing Bela of tiredness on the escape from the Two Rivers (EotW). Could Rand have caused this effect subconsciously, as Thom was a friend, and we see that Rand was very concerned. I feel this is a distinct possibility, as the use of the power in this situation would have caused the Blue Flashes? Any thoughts?

Him-who-may: 2004-05-05

---She leaned forward, and the room was small enough for her to rest her hand on his right knee. A chil tingle ran through him. "I wish a good healer had been near when this happened. It is too late now, I regret"

"A dozen healers wouldn't have been enough," he told her. "A halfman did it."

"I know."----

The shadow rising, chapter 17

This quote clearly shows the injury was caused by a fade and that it is unhealable. Fade blades to NOT always kill, but are unhealable except for immediatly after the wound is suffered.

As for when the wound was suffered Thom had already pushed the boys away from him. They were running before he screamed run. Besides he first shouted run BEFORE he charged the Fade.

It appears to be the view of most of those gathered here that the fire was caused by the panic surrounding Thom and the Fade fighting and that the flashes were caused by unknown Fade powers.

To me these sound like very weak explanations. The square emptied very quickly when the Fade was revealed. It was not a riot, there were only a few people there to begin with. 50ish people running through the square nd surrounding streets of a fairly large town does not strike me as the situation that would cause a knocked over lamp to burn down a town.

Also we have nothing at all to suggest that the Fade was anything special and Fades are common enough so that we know their abilities (with the exception of SH). I think it is equally likley that there was an Aes Sedei in the town at the time who caused the flashes and fire. Do I believe this? Of course not, there is nothing to support it.

Your answers to the questions may not be able to be proved wrong, but they have no evidence supporting them either.

ca53395: 2004-05-13

I mainly wanted to comment on the fire that occured afterwards. Correct me if I am wrong but didn't Bayle Domon the ship captain say later on in one of the books that his ship had been attacked by a mob on the docks at Whitebridge? Couldn't this have been how the fire started?

Oatman: 2004-05-18

I've just had a thought on the nature of the flashes.

Thom, being a gleeman, would have many magic tricks up his sleeves. Isn't it possible that he had some sort of flash powder which he used to distract the fade while Rand and Mat ran? I'm sure ive seen somthin like it before, you throw it into the ground and theres a bright flash, but nothing else. Think about it.

Callandor: 2004-05-18

**Isn't it possible that he had some sort of flash powder which he used to distract the fade while Rand and Mat ran?**

Highly doubtful, due to his reaction to Mat opening the firework. He is purely terrified of it.

Him-who-may: 2004-05-19

Judging from Thom's reaction to Mat fanny-arsing about with fireworks I think its unlikley he has any sort of flash powder.

HappyFade: 2004-05-19

Flash powder, if there is any in Randland, would most likely only be found with an illuminator.

And, seeing how Thom reacts when Mat is fiddles with fireworks, I don't think Thom's the type who would trust such things.

No exact quotes(sorry), but I seem to recall Thom quite fearful of fireworks. Since flashpowder is much the same thing, I wouldn't expect to find Thom carrying any.

Anubis: 2004-05-19

interesting. i like that idea that it was a gleeman trick. just stage magic. not all that usefull, but every little bit helps and that could have been the bit that made the difference.

Anubis: 2004-05-20

**Isn't it possible that he had some sort of flash powder which he used to distract the fade while Rand and Mat ran?**

Highly doubtful, due to his reaction to Mat opening the firework. He is purely terrified of it.

so he has encountered explosives before.... and what would he be more afraid of? an explosive or a fade? maybe the reason he reacts like that is because of whitebridge.

Him-who-may: 2004-05-22

I like the idea that Thom has developed his reaction to fireworks from Whitebridge but where would Thom get it from?

Its unlikley he got it in Whitebridge or any of the other towns hes passed in since being in Edmond's Field which means he had it prior to his introduction into the books. But then wouldn't he have used it in Shadar Logarth or fighting against the trollocs in just before they enter it?

On the other hand Thom is dsecribed as never being seen when the trollocs attack Edmond's Field BUT somebody points out he must have been involved as he was trimming burnt bits off his cloak. Maybe the fire wasn't caused by the attacking trollocs but Thom trying to use fireworks or explosive powder of some sort to defend himself. Seeing his effects he grew very warey of it and didn't use it in Shardar Logarth as he was scared and only used it in Whitebridge because he was absolutley completely desperate.

What you think?

Callandor: 2004-05-23

**so he has encountered explosives before.... and what would he be more afraid of?**

No, he knows the dangers of opening them because Aludra told Mat and Thom not to expose them to air, right after she was rescued by them. Mat does the opposite of what an important knowledgable person says about a dangerous object; more then enough reason to cause fear.

heronblade: 2004-05-23

i've just been thinking (oh no!) we know there are items made by the powers that can be used by those incapable of channeling- there was a little statue of a woman in amber i think (sorry no books) that was used to get into the world of dreams by S when she hadn't been healed yet.

what if thom had one of these. this would explain his reluctence to speak, and possably both the blue sparks and his wounding but not death at the hands of the fade.

charliec: 2004-05-23

probably even more than that Callandor- there'd be plenty of rumours of the dangers of fireworks, and as a court bard he'd no doubt heard plenty, and seen his fair share of displays...

I can't really see Thom (or any gleemen) using flash powder much, the last thing a sensible performer would want to do is imitate channeling, think about the mob reactions to "Aes Sedai" performers who did little tricks... for a man it'd be even more dangerous.

Even if such a performer didn't get lynched by the mob, I think they'd find themselves some problems with the illuminators. Such knowledge of explosives is just not common in Randland, and Thom is no experimental alchemist.

Him-who-may: 2004-05-27

Not at all.

We even see a book where a woman is doing normal slight of hand tricks and claiming to be aes Sedei.

Thom would get away with tricks with flash powder in the bigger cities (as long as there were no Whitecloak patrons) just not in the smaller villages where people would be more wary.

As for him actually having it I can see flashpowder as something Thom would be atracted to more as a means of self-defense then as a trick.

Read my earlier post for my ideas about Thom and "flashpowder" for defense.

Anubis: 2004-05-27

sorry callandor. but in my mind being told somthing is dangerous and experiancing the danger are two very different things.

and i would bet a dollar that the cutting them open thing is a complete myth started by the illuminators in order to protect their secrets. theres nothing smart or sensable about it.

Jack o Shadows: 2004-05-28

I'm not reading them all, it's late and have you seen them all??? And maybe the flash was a result of summoning the daggers in some way. Thom does his handy thing, daggers appear. Makes sense. Maybe a Ter that summons Daggers or makes them, like the warder cloaks? They arn't power wrought. Just made vy somthing using the power. removed from the power by atleast 1 degree.

Callandor: 2004-05-28

**And maybe the flash was a result of summoning the daggers in some way.**

No, Thom removes the daggers, then charges at the Fade, they collide, and then the blue flash happens.

charliec: 2004-05-29

Anubis- it's probably no myth... plenty of modern fireworks bear the same warning, and (engage reponsible adult mode) will in fact take your fingers off if you expose their contents to the air. On the other hand (engage some-time chemistry teacher mode) it sounds interesting enough to investigate...

Aargh! my hand...

Anubis: 2004-05-29

i take fireworks apart all the time. and ive never had one go off... am i just lucky? and i just parused the lables on my collection... they are all the same, none mention cutting them open at all. closest is misuse may result in injury or fire

Zader: 2004-07-14

HappyFade

I must admit I overlooked those references you used in your theory, and logically, I would have to agree with the points you have raised. I believe, from reading some of the theories posted, most arguments centre on the “one theory”(being the theory discussed at the time) rather than how does this “one theory” tie up with the overall Theme and Events that have happened prior to, during, and after the “one theory” being discussed. At the time Thom attacked the Myrddraal, we were not aware the prominent part he would play in future events. We were given a hint of this in Min's viewing after she had seen Nyneave arrive in Baerlon. Ie the dark eating the sparks. Most theories centre on Thom's abilities and why he was not killed by the Fade, but could the reason be, the Fade did not want Thom dead, he did want Thom separated from Rand and Mat though. When Rand and Mat got the ride from Almen Bunt, Rand saw a Fade talking to the Innkeeper. When Moiraine saw Mat in bed in The Queen's Blessing she say's this about Mat's dagger. “I felt the evil of it when I laid eyes on him, the touch of Mashadar, but a Fade could sense it for miles. Even though he would not know exactly where, he would know it was near, and Mashadar would draw his spirit while his bones remembered that this same evil swallowed an army. This is perhaps, more unusual behaviour from a Fade. One other point I did find. When Lan came back from searching for Rand, Mat, and Perrin, in SL. He made this comment to Moiraine “... The Halfmen are having to drive them- four to just one fist- and even the Myrdraal seem to want nothing more than to pass through the city and out as quickly as possible...” “The Myrdraal forced the Trollocs into the city. What forced the Myrdraal?”

dragonsceptor: 2004-07-15

Anubis, the fireworks we have today are not the same that were used in the past. To take an example from firearms...it was not uncommon for Black Powder weapons to explode. Black Powder is very unstable and can do funny things. The compounds used today are not nearly as unstable. I would imagine that with the current technology level in Randland, they have not advanced far enough in chemistry to create more stable compounds. There are some compounds...like white phosphorous (one component of Napalm) that spontanesouly combusts when brought in contact with Air. We just don't know what the illuminators were using for their fireworks...it could be a scare tactic or it could be a legitimate warning...we just don't know.

slowrunnr17: 2004-07-15

i know this leaves it wide open, but could the knives be ter'angreal and have the blue light effect when coming in contact with shadowspawn or something like that, and him being able to get them back or have multiples

Genghis: 2004-07-27

i think ill have to agree with the possible Shaidar Haran apperance because he is the only fade we have actually seen with the ability to use the TP. Some of you say that maybe RJ just made a mistake, but if thats true he has made the same mistake three times. Also i doubt if a fade shows up in the middle of a crowd people are going to be noticing how tall it is especially while hes on a horse that makes it harder to tell. Maybe im completly wrong, but it seems to me the DO might be getting a bit frustrated so he sends his right hand man. Maybe the whole thing really is just as simple as one of Thom's "special blades" hitting the fades sword. Or maybe the fade hit its own blade with something power wrought. Who knows!?

Him-who-may: 2004-08-23

I think a mistake is all too likley.

In the first book Rand encounters two fades that smile. They may both infact have been SH but I think not.

That early into the books maybe RJ simply hadn't decided in his own mind Fade's don't smile. Its only in the recent books that its mentioned they don't whereas early in the books the Fade's smiling is simply a narrative technique to make them seem scarier to the reader. The time between SH's first DEFINATE appareance in the books and Thom's apparant on Whitebridge is five years at least. An author can be excused something like that over that space of time I'm sure.

There are more examples of this in "The world of The Wheel of Time". In this the entry for Darkhounds say they are made from "canine stock" whereas we now know that they are made from the souls of Wolves, not an actual construction.

Of course the entry may only apply to the first Darkhounsd ever created but you get my point.

Anubis: 2004-08-24

um... wolves are canines....

HappyFade: 2004-08-25

Just to correct, Rand does not encounter the smiling fade twice in the first book, but once in the first and once in the second. In addition Bors encounters in once in the second and once in the third. Mat, just once, in the fourth.

There are a few other events that I think could also be the same fade (whitebridge being one), but have no smiling to offer.

It could be just a mistake—using the smiling and laughing for dramatic effect—only later stating (in books six onwards) that fades can't act like that. Keeping a series going for such a length of time, mistakes as such are inevitable. Hopefully we'll soon find out if these events are, or not, mistakes.

As for The World of The Wheel of Time, RJ cleverly excuses himself from the mistakes contained therein in the preface.

Him-who-may: 2004-10-19

To Anubis;

Yes obviously they are canines but the book suggests they are constructs in the same way as Trollocs whereas we now know them to be corrupted Wolf souls, not a form of life in the same way as Trollocs or Fades.

The point I'm making is that over the decade since it was first written misake are very likley and also fairly common between the early and later books. No writter in the world could be utterly consistant over that space of time.

Jumai: 2004-10-19

Is there not an RJ interview on the dragonmount site that says the flashes were produced before they closed?

Callandor: 2004-10-19

**The point I'm making is that over the decade since it was first written misake are very likley and also fairly common between the early and later books. No writter in the world could be utterly consistant over that space of time.**

First books - myth, new experiences, false assumptions.

Later books - the truth.

RJ is showing the world a majority of the time through young, inexperienced, people's eyes. Perfect examples of this are with Ishamael = the Dark One (I sadly know some people still believe this one), Rand believing that all male channelers = evil (irony, eh ;)), or Aiel being 10 feet tall and breathing fire with their faces in their bellies.

**There are more examples of this in "The world of The Wheel of Time". In this the entry for Darkhounds say they are made from "canine stock" whereas we now know that they are made from the souls of Wolves, not an actual construction.**

Canine stock = dog body.

Corrupted wolf soul + dog body = corrupted dog.

Nice doggy, for the Shadow to play with.

**The time between SH's first DEFINATE appareance in the books and Thom's apparant on Whitebridge is five years at least.**

Around 2 years.

fistandantilus: 2004-10-25

Couldn't these blue flashes have been used just as a literary device? The blue flashes followed by a scream of pain give this battle, short as it may be, just a little extra something that gives the reader a better sense of the drama of the situation. I mean, if it was just "thom hit the Fade and they fell. Thom screamed," wouldn't that be a little plain? The blue flash lets you know that it is a violent, heated conflict, and Thom is fighting for his life. I think it adds a little flair to the event.

Callandor: 2004-10-25

**I think it adds a little flair to the event.**

Of course it does, but RJ rarely does things in a scene without reason.

fistandantilus: 2004-10-26

Agreed, that is not typically RJ's style, but unless it is a screw up by Rj, it doesn't make sense. Special daggers, but not power wrought. Only Thakan'dar steel and power wrought steel make blue sparks. If it was a Fade ability, I think we would have seen more of it in future books. My best guess is that it was used for drama, or a mistake.

fistandantilus: 2004-10-26

Yes there is an interview that says the flash happened before impact.

*Q: If a Fades blade will not produce lighting except against other Thakandar wrought blades, and power-wrought blades, Why do Thom's daggers produce it when he attacks the Fade at Whitebridge?

A: thoms daggers did not produce the effect. It was produced before thom reached the fade.*

How ever, this causes yet another conflict with the books.

Title: The Eye of the World

Chapter: 26, Whitebridge

Pages 398 and 399, paperback

'The Fade was just as startled. Its leisurely pace faltered in mid-stride. Its hand swept toward the hilt of the long black sword hanging at its waist, but the gleeman's long legs covered the distance quickly. *Thom crashed into the Myrddraal before the black blade was half drawn, and both went down in a thrashing heap. The few people still in the square fled.

"RUN!" The air in the square flashed an eye searing blue, and Thom began to scream*, but even in the middle of the scream he managed a word. "RUN!"'

Saying that they went "down in a thrashing heap" indicates that they went down fighting. There was not sufficient time, based on the above quote, for Thom to have broken away from the Myrddraal and started advancing on it again. So how did the flash happen before Thom reached the Fade? I now understand why people say that interviews are not to be taken as fact.

Callandor: 2004-10-26

**Special daggers, but not power wrought. Only Thakan'dar steel and power wrought steel make blue sparks. If it was a Fade ability, I think we would have seen more of it in future books. My best guess is that it was used for drama, or a mistake**

Mistake is in the interview quote in my mind. No reason for RJ to say that it wasn't the Power-wrought daggers, then to say that Thoms blades are special, when we know that Power-wrought blades and Fade blades produce blue sparks.

Two things are most likely to me:

1. RJ made a slip (human accident).

2. It's a bad interview, if not fake.

Side Note: this is one of the interview topics that I do not accept or vouche for in quotes. It's too contradicted for an interview to be verified as proof.

Aiel Finn: 2004-12-01

What if the daggers are not real. They are produced by some sort of ter'angreal. Thus they are not "power-wrought" in the normal sense of an unbreakable blade, but are normal steel blades made by a ter'angreal. The blue flashes are just from the reaction of the residual OP and the TP in the thakandar blade reacting.

fistandantilus: 2004-12-05

If I remember, some one mentioned something like this somewhere in this monstrous theory. Any way, ter'angreal use the OP to do things. If the ter'angreal makes daggers, even if the daggers have no special properties, they are still made by the OP, thus, power wrought.

Aiel Finn: 2004-12-06

What I meant was that the daggers are made by the power but are not the power-wrought unbreakable steel. They are just normal daggers which were created by a ter'angreal.

Callandor: 2004-12-06

**If the ter'angreal makes daggers, even if the daggers have no special properties, they are still made by the OP, thus, power wrought.**

No. Power-wrought blades are specially made by combining/blending many metals and altering the structure of the blade. This is shown in a letter from RJ:

**"The Power was used in blending the metals (and other materials...) and altering the structure. There is no source of the Power in these weapons, nor do they draw on the Power like angreal...." [from RJ letter 4/95]**

And the books:

**TITLE: Great Hunt

CHAPTER: 47 - The Grave Is No Bar to My Call

For the first time Rand realized that Ba'alzamon acted as if the heron-mark blade could harm him. Steel can't hurt the Dark One. But Ba'alzamon watched the sword warily. *Rand was one with the sword. He could feel every particle of it, tiny bits a thousand times too small to be seen with the eye.* And he could feel the Power that suffused him running into the sword, as well, threading through the intricate matrices wrought by Aes Sedai during the Trolloc Wars.**

So things are not simply power-wrought if they are daggers made from a ter'angreal, with nothing special about them. There are special properties to power-wrought objects.

fistandantilus: 2004-12-09

I get it now. Just thought made by the power would be power wrought. Now I know better, thanks Callandor.

TopRamen: 2005-02-01

I've got to say I read this theory and thought you were on to something, but I have been reading some of the answers to interviews that RJ has been in and this is taken directly from one such interview:

[Malivar: If a Fades blade will not produce lighting except against other Thakandar wrought blades, and power-wrought blades, Why do Thom's daggers produce it when he attacks the Fade at Whitebridge?

[R-JORDAN: thoms daggers did not produce the effect. It was produced before thom reached the fade.

http://www.dromen-demonen.nl/luitingh_htdocs/transjordan.html

thats the site if you want to check up on my info.

Callandor: 2005-02-01

**I've got to say I read this theory and thought you were on to something, but I have been reading some of the answers to interviews that RJ has been in and this is taken directly from one such interview**

This is one of the few instances of conflicting interviews.

There is:

1. The interview you gave.

2. A recent interview saying that Thom's daggers are "very special indeed."

3. And a third interview which I believe RJ avoided the question or said something similar to "No." (I don't have it on reference, so I am more then willing to strike it, but I thought I saw one like that).

That being said, RJ is clearly in the wrong in that interview you gave.

**TITLE: Eye of the World

CHAPTER: 26 - Whitebridge

"RUN!" Thom sprang into motion, too, with a long, wordless roar. Not after them, but toward the Myrddraal. His hands flourished as if he were performing at his best, and daggers appeared. Rand stopped, but Mat pulled him along.

The Fade was just as startled. Its leisurely pace faltered in mid-stride. Its hand swept toward the hilt of the black sword hanging at its waist, but the gleeman's long legs covered the distance quickly. Thom crashed into the Myrddraal before the black blade was half drawn, and both went down in a thrashing heap. The few people still in the square fled.

"RUN!" The air in the square flashed an eye-searing blue, and Thom began to scream, but even in the middle of the scream he managed a word. "RUN!"**

Clearly, very clearly, Thom got to the Fade before the flash occured. Either RJ remembered the passage wrong and misspoke, or it's a fake. I believe he simply misspoke on that interview.

Darren: 2005-03-01

"That being said, RJ is clearly in the wrong in that interview you gave."

Glad to see Mr. "Interviews are infallible..." finally talking sense.

Callandor: 2005-03-01

**Glad to see Mr. "Interviews are infallible..." finally talking sense.**

When have I ever said interviews were infallible? They must be accepted as fact if they are uncontradicted. If they are contradicted, speculate what you will. If you notice carefully, if there's an interview with contradictions, I don't quote it.

Plus, if it's about this topic, I have not ever said that one quote was preferable over another specifically because it has been contradicted.

Aiel Finn: 2005-03-02

You all know that RJ will finally tell us what happened in either one of the later books or after they are all done, and we will all kick ourselves for the dumb things we thought. Right?

Ozymandias: 2005-03-07

gonna be honest... i didnt read all of these, only maybe the first dozen or so. Anyways, is it possible that Thom's daggers, while not power-wrought, are in some way spelled so that they hurt Shadowspawn more than normal with the OP? Obviously some glaring inconsistencies, Thom hating Aes Sedai (or not liking. But he still could have had the daggers since his youth when he had no reason to not like AS), if its possible to spell a dagger, etc etc. But still, Thom might have thrown the dagger, and that reaction of the Fade and the spelled dagger caused the blue light, and then he attacked, but the Fade wasnt dead. We know they take a while to die, and maybe this one died a little later (a good reason why it didnt catch Rand and Mat, who were obviously much slower than the Myrdraal) and was replaced by DF informants along the way. Just food for thought

Bane Darkwulf: 2005-03-24

Thom's best blades might have been his best Power-wrought, or they might have just been his best balanced blades. The ones in Whitebridge might have been Power-wrought, but I don't think so, not seeing as Tho has a disliking for Aes Sedai.

Fenris: 2005-04-29

OK, first off, sorry to drag this up but wanted to make a suggestion that I did not see but may have missed.

Thom is an increadibly resourseful person. One would say he is easilly a master tactician and probably knows every way imaginable to throw his enemies off guard. I doubt anyone would dispute this. We can also say that Fade's are VERY fast when compared to the genreral population, I would assume a Fade could draw a sword pretty swiftly.

We know that Thom had 2 daggers and at some point before he made contact with the Fade a blue flash was produced, and by the time contact was made the Fade only had his sword half drawn.

Most theories here presume that the flash was made from Thoms daggers contacting the Fade's sword or some other interference. No one has seemed to recognize Thoms tactical skill.

Thom has 2 Powerwrought daggers and is facing an increadibly dangerous opponent at relatively close range. He begins a charge....and what would you do?

Well I would close my eyes and hit the 2 daggers together stunning my opponent. Thats what I would do.

TheJester: 2005-05-01

I agree that Thom may have hit his Dagers together and produce the flash, it's the only thing that makes sence from what Jordan has said, i.e. 'special' daggers, and the flash being before he reached the fade.

The only but point I see is that would tha flash actually affect the fade, we had seen Lan face fades and the blue flash occurs but doesn't seem to affect him or the eyeless, we also seen it in the Dragon Reborn in the stone of Tear when two fades face each other. So would it really have had an effect?

We knoe that fades can see just as well without eyes but they don't have eyes and therefore no retinas to burn.

Merk: 2005-05-02

Yeah, I don't think the flash would stun the fade in any way, but it's definitely an interesting idea that Thom's knives struck each other. Maybe he hit them together to show he was someone to be reckoned with, not just someone to be brushed aside. Maybe considering this would slow the fade down and give Rand and Mat a little extra time to get away.

Then again, if I were Thom, I might want to *not* let the fade know I was dangerous until after we'd engaged.

Jiana: 2005-05-03

"I can see Thom snooping around the old storerooms and finding some pretty cool stuff."

Hey, that's a possibility. Maybe part of Thom being chased out of Caemlyn had to do with theft from the Royal Palace?

"If it was the cloaks that enabled them to travel, don't you think it would have been relatively easy for Aginor to puzzle it out?"

This quote made a few questions rear their ugly heads. I don't want to get off-topic, but I have to ask. Myrddraal are a "throwback," an "accident" if you will, spawned from Trollocs. My first question is... (go ahead and laugh) Are Trollocs asexual, or are there actually female Trollocs? (If you're laughing at the idea of a Narg-ette, that's fine, I am too!) My second question is... Where do the Myrddraals' cloaks come from? They wouldn't be born wearing them would they? For that matter, what does a Myrddraal look like when it is born? Idle speculation, I know, but those things have been nagging at me. Anyone have any insight?

Merk: 2005-05-03

Sorry, don't have any quotes with me, but there *are* female trollocs and they breed just like you and me (well, maybe not *just* like you and me....).

Obviously the Myrddraal aren't born with the cloaks. I'd imagine they are made somehow, like the warder cloaks, which come from a ter'angreal in the WT.

Callandor: 2005-05-04

**Sorry, don't have any quotes with me, but there *are* female trollocs and they breed just like you and me (well, maybe not *just* like you and me....).**

Yes, there are female Trollocs -- they almost entirely breeding stock.

**TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time, CHAPTER: Myrddraal

As in the Age of Legends, only male Trollocs fight or hunt. ~Females are cloistered, serving as little more than breeding machines.~ Fortunately female Trollocs enjoy being pregnant. Trollocs can interbreed with humans, but apparently prefer humans as food. In any case, even if the human mother survives to give birth, the resulting offspring are usually stillborn, and the few born live do not survive long.**

Jiana: 2005-05-04

Thank you, Callandor & Merk, for the clarification. Apparently the idea of a Trolloc wearing a dress isn't so far-fetched after all. :) Still conjures up a pretty freakin' hilarious mental image for me though.

The Wolfbrothers: 2005-06-21

My theory is that Thom had power-wrought daggers, and the blue flash was created by his daggers hitting the Fade's blade (missing in an attempt to sever the fade's hand) as he tackled the Fade, and that RJ was mistaken in his "the blue flash was created before Thom got to the Fade" interview.

Mad Tinker: 2005-06-22

I have to say, this is always one where RJ simply didn't get it right. Maybe he had intended for Thom's knives to have been Power-wrought and never followed through with it. Additionally, the fade never even fully removed his sword from his scabbard. I think RJ felt it was more dramatic having Thom go down with a blue flash filling the air. Just my thoughts...

Taim is not Demandred: 2005-07-07

Just because Rand and Mat don't see the fade finish drawing its sword doesn't mean it didn't soon after, fades are nearly blademasters. and something made Thom scream and a fade injury would have to come from a Thakan'dar blade.

Gaidal: 2005-07-10

Is it possible that Thom's knives are cuendillar? That way they wouldn't technically be "power-wrought" as the knives were probably made from iron/steel before being turned into cuendillar. Also, this way there is some of the OP in them and could create the blue flash if it came into contact with the Fade's blade. Just a thought, idk if someone mentioned this before or not, too many replies to read ;)

Callandor: 2005-07-11

**Just because Rand and Mat don't see the fade finish drawing its sword doesn't mean it didn't soon after, fades are nearly blademasters. and something made Thom scream and a fade injury would have to come from a Thakan'dar blade.**

Rand and Mat see Thom crash into the Fade -- no blade drawn. Later, in The Great Hunt, Thom says that the Fade gave him the limp for the trouble and left him. Odds are, it merely punched his leg. If he got stabbed with the Fade blade, he more than likely would be dead, because of the properties of those blades.

**Also, this way there is some of the OP in them and could create the blue flash if it came into contact with the Fade's blade.**

We do not know if Cuendillar hiting Fade's blades produced the blue flashes -- we do however know that power-wrought blades hitting Fade's blades produced the flashes.

JakOShadows: 2005-07-12

I have to agree with Taim here. And I also remember Thom telling Rand they met in tGH that the fade wouldn't want to kill him. So what I drew from that is the fade slashed at Thom's knee when he was attacking him because he couldn't waste time actually trying to get a killing blow. And by the time Thom was incapacitated, Rand and Mat were gone and had already escaped the fade. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I always though cuendillar was white or any color, but does not look like a metal. Therefore I would lean more towards them being power-wrought or something of that nature. And I think before the end of the series we will learn a lot more about how Thom came about all his talents that he has.

Gaidal: 2005-07-13

As for the cuendillar color thing, maybe they made the cuendillar a silver color. I don' know if they can do that or not, I'm just tossing out ideas.

Taim is not Demandred: 2005-07-13

We have no proof anywhere that the mere touch of a fade produces injuries that can't be healed. We do have proof that blades made in Thakan'dar produce wounds that don't heal. We also don't know if wounds to extremities by Thakan'dar blades are deadly or not, and if they are whether the mortality rate is 100% or close to it. We don't really see anyone hit with a Thakan'dar blade in an extremity, because usually they strike to kill, not merely wound and leave; also, most people we see die to fades are not as skilled at fighting as our main characters. I'd wager against the mere touch or strike of a myrdraal being a never healing wound.

ThunderWalker: 2005-07-13

Responding to Fade's tricks.

From the question an answers on the Tor site:

Question: Was the Fade who visited Jaichim Carridin in the Prologue of The Dragon Reborn an early version of Shaidar Haran? Its response that it likes to keep an eye on 'all who serve me' and its apparent sense of humour are behaviour atypical of a Fade.

Robert Jordan Answers:

I was wondering who would spot that. Shadar Haran Version 0.5! The Dark One doesn't get it spot on the first time every time.

----

The Dark One is working on Super-Fades. This could be one of them -- with more control over the True Power, even at this point in the series. Maybe this Fade discharged some sort of lightning, which knocked out Thom (hurting his leg) and started the fire. So many people were scattering, he had no chance to grab Mat and Rand, so he left. Then the Dark One got rid of that Fade, and tried again.

Callandor: 2005-07-13

**We have no proof anywhere that the mere touch of a fade produces injuries that can't be healed.**

And I did not say that -- I merely pointed out that if Thom was injured by the Fade's blade, the most likely thing is that he would've died. Yet he explains his injuries to be nothing but a trivialty to Rand in The Great Hunt. That does not speak of a sword injury, let alone from a Fade blade. Most likey, the Fade merely punched his hip.

**We also don't know if wounds to extremities by Thakan'dar blades are deadly or not, and if they are whether the mortality rate is 100% or close to it.**

**TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 8 - A Place of Safety

"Moiraine shook her head and sighed. "Not yet. I hope it is only not yet. Trolloc weapons are made at forges in the valley called Thakan'dar, on the very slopes of Shayol Ghul itself. Some of them take a taint from that place, a stain of evil in the metal. Those tainted blades make wounds that will not heal unaided, or cause deadly fevers, strange sicknesses that medicines cannot touch. I have soothed your father's pain, but the mark, the taint, is still in him. Left alone, it will grow again, and consume him."**

**TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time, CHAPTER: Myrddraal

"Myrddraal swords are very specialized weapons. Unlike crude Trolloc blades, hammered out from any type of usable metal, these blades are only made at one place in all the world, a gray-roofed forge on the slopes of Shayol Ghul at Thakan'dar, mere yards from the entrance to the Pit of Doom itself. No mortal smith crafts such foul blades. Only shadow-forgers, animated man-shaped beings apparently hacked from the mountain stone, can work the deadly steel. Though not truly alive, they perform their only task with great skill. Each black shadow-blade is carefully fashioned, quenched in the ink-dark tainted streams of Shayol Ghul, and seasoned with a human soul.

The smallest wound from any of these corrupted blades brings death to the victim; the wounds fester and will not heal without the aid of the One Power. With such a weapon, little skill is needed, yet the Halfmen are agile fighters and would be formidable foes armed with even plain steel. The black blades make (and made) them almost invincible to the common soldier. But their weapons do wear out, after a time, and must be replaced, and the demand for Myrddraal is (and was) not always matched by the availability of materials or live prisoners."

An injury from a Fade blade is deadly, unless the One Power is used. If Thom was injured by it, he would've had to explain how he is still alive.

JakOShadows: 2005-07-14

Interesting idea thunderwalker. It is certainly possible, but there is nothing else to prove that it happened. It could be that the dragon's fang was scralled on their inns door and that caused the burning or even other darkfriends at work. But it was possible, so keep looking into it.

TheJester: 2005-08-14

There are example sof fades doing damage without thier blades.

When the fade visits Carridin in the Fortress of Light it leaves scores down the table where it has burned it with it's nails.

Also in The Great Hunt there is the scene with the wolves attacking the trollocs in the camp, we have the perspective from Perrin that one pack chase down a fade and bring it down. It has now sword and it resorts to using it's teeth and Hands "ripping out throats".

In the Dragon Reborn when Nynaeve, Egwene and Elayne are captured and the Aiel come to save them the Maiden that Nynaeve saved gets killed and Rhuarc says "She was hit by shadow man steel" telling her not to even bother. Therefore fade blades will always kill.

It is more likely that the fade caught Thom's knee with a hand when they fell together and tried to torture some information out of him but didn't have the time and threw him aside, hence he's still alive.

Anubis: 2005-08-14

**It is more likely that the fade caught Thom's knee with a hand when they fell together and tried to torture some information out of him but didn't have the time and threw him aside, hence he's still alive.**

you have got to be kidding me. your half right but its been pretty well established that the fade kicked thom in the hip and ran past him. i believe thom flat out says thats what happens.

JakOShadows: 2005-08-14

jester: I like your idea about the injury. It does make sense for it to be that since he is not killed, but why would it torture him for information. Probably what happened is Thom threw himself into the fade which allowed him to get inside his sword swing. That's probably how he would use the knives anyway. Then in the process of throwing Thom out of the way, the fade touched his knee with some part of his body. And since the boys had already gotten away, he didn't give chase.

TheJester: 2005-08-16

By toturing I was thinking more being lifted up once Thom was incapacitated (hit on the knee), and being asked where Rand and Mat were, getting no reponce out of Thom and knowing that he needs to find them and get out of the place before all hell breaks lose throws Thom aside and finds the nearest shadow.

ForsakenRahvin: 2006-10-17

**"...Thom crashed into the Myrddraal before the black blade was half drawn, and both went down in a thrashing heap."

Half drawn black blade... Anyone else here know anything of fencing? Almost impossible for the blades to have come into contact unless Thom was trying to throw his knife into the kidney of the myrddraal. Thak'andar blade DID not meet power wrought blade.**

You're RIGHT!!! THEY NEVER DID TOUCH! Because Thom tackled him.

tEotW: Chapter 26 - pg. 398-99

"RUN!" Thom sprang into motion, too, with a long wordless roar. Not after them, but toward the Maddraal. His hands flourished as if he were peforming at his best, and daggers appeared. Rand stopped, but Mat pulled him along.

The Fade was just as starled. Its leisurely pace faltered in mid-stride. Its hand swept toward the hilt of the black sword hanging at its waist, but the gleeman's long legs covered the distance quickly. Thom crashed into the Myrddraal before the black blade was half drawn, and both went down in a thrashing heap. The few people still in the square fled.

"RUN!" The air in the square flashed an eye-searing blue, and Thom began to scream, but even in the middle of the scream he managed a word. "RUN!"

That sounds to me like the blue flash happened AFTER they fell in a heap, and the Fade could have drawn its blade by that time.

So if Thom's daggers WERE power-wrought, then the possibility of the Fade's blade and Thom's daggers meeting is likely.

Dragoon: 2006-11-23

well just best could simply mean better made not actually power-wrought, also maybe the daggers are one of those things that simply USE the power y'know like how in some fantasy games there are weapons that have spell effects and I thought that I saw something about weapons that can use the power somewhere Shocklances (most probably some kind of Lazer Rifle) might be one type.

BigBlade: 2006-11-27

Maybe RJ made a mistake? It wouldnt be the first time. He probably forgot that Thom lost his best knifes. Besides that its hard to belive that Thom got in a blade fight against a Myrddraal using a stubby little knife I think that he just stabbed him.

BigBlade: 2006-11-27

Rand could have channeled. Men dont necessarily get sick and die when they channel for the first time. Only women do. And we all know that there are differences between saidar and saidin. But I believe that Thoms daggar hit the myrddraals blade causing the blue flash. Maybe this just happens. But why didnt Perrins axe have the same effect. Only RJ knows for sure

Callandor: 2006-11-28

**Rand could have channeled. Men dont necessarily get sick and die when they channel for the first time. Only women do. And we all know that there are differences between saidar and saidin. But I believe that Thoms daggar hit the myrddraals blade causing the blue flash. Maybe this just happens. But why didnt Perrins axe have the same effect. Only RJ knows for sure**

1. We know the incidents when Rand channels because he is one of those that does get sick from them -- the incident with the Myrddraal was not one of them.

2. We've asked the question to Jordan, he's given conflicting answers, and then most recently said that both answers were correct. From what we know, he doesn't treat it as a mistake.

3. The blue flashes occur when Power-wrought blades hit Fade blades. It does not occur with normal steel. Hence why it doesn't occur with Perrin's axe and other 3rd Age made weapons.

PillowFriends: 2006-11-29

I really like the idea that SH has been around for a long time. Whether it was SH who Thom tangled with or not, well, who knows. Also, since RJ did make a mistake, only he can say for sure what the blue flash was.

kaylo: 2007-01-14

What I want to address was actually written by Callandor almost 3 years ago, but caught my eye as I skimmed the thread.

**

**They've clearly got some kind of power abilities, but no channeler has ever noticed them using Saidin or Saidar... seems VERY likely they have some basic use of the TP.**

No, Aginor didn't even know how they did their tricks, and he was a Forsaken with TP access at the time; the odds of him not being able to figure out they used the TP are incredibly low. Their Traveling abilities seem more linked with their cloaks that never move, placing them "slightly out of phase with the world" IIRC.

**

It is specifically stated in the series that only the wielder of the TP can sense it. It seems to me that no amount of study could convince Aginor of whether the fades' abilities stem from the TP, since there is no way for it to be detected except for a manifestation of it's power, i.e. the visible manifestation of a wielder's flows using the TP, or the abilities fades have been revealed to possess. Heck, Fain's powers may be a combination of Mordeth's and the Dark One's powers, and of coarse any power endowed by the DO would be associated with the TP. So it's not altogether ludicrous to assume fades and other creatures of the dark one with supernatural abilites may be in some way connected to the TP or OP.

The one hole in my theory that I'm aware of is this though - the Aes Sedai in the AoL discovered the existence of a new power that could be wielded by men and women, which lead to the Bore - it's altogether possible there is some way it could be detected and this idea had been pursued by Aginor concerning the fades, but from what we've read about the TP, except in this particular instance, it is undetectable.

Callandor: 2007-01-17

**Heck, Fain's powers may be a combination of Mordeth's and the Dark One's powers, and of coarse any power endowed by the DO would be associated with the TP. So it's not altogether ludicrous to assume fades and other creatures of the dark one with supernatural abilites may be in some way connected to the TP or OP.**

It is. Myrddraal do not channel. Shaidar Haran is the only one who has used what is obviously the True Power, and he's very obviously an exception due to his enhancements. Even then, he didn't use the True Power to use his Shadow-traveling:

**TITLE: Crown of Swords

CHAPTER: 40 - Spears

A sudden ache climbed the back of its neck; a faint weakness washed along its limbs. Too long away from Shayol Ghul. That tie had to be severed somehow. With a snarl, it turned to find the edge of shadow that it needed. The day was coming. It would come.**

This is just what Myrddraal can do. That's all we know.

(And even alluding to Fain using the True Power is simply false.)

**The one hole in my theory that I'm aware of is this though - the Aes Sedai in the AoL discovered the existence of a new power that could be wielded by men and women, which lead to the Bore - it's altogether possible there is some way it could be detected and this idea had been pursued by Aginor concerning the fades, but from what we've read about the TP, except in this particular instance, it is undetectable.**

I wasn't saying that Aginor could detect their use, I was saying he knew what the True Power was having been able to use it himself. Egwene for example would never suspect Myrddraal could use the True Power because she doesn't know what the True Power is. Aginor does, so he would obviously take that into account.

kaylo: 2007-01-18

I do not believe I said shadowspawn constructs could channel. I said they could be in some way connected to the TP or OP. Many things in the age of legends were connected to the OP. In The World of Robert Jorddan's Wheel of Time, which was an accumulation and organization of his notes, it states that entire branches of science and discovery could be wholly attributed to the use of the one power, and much of the technology was created using, powered with, and/or in some other way associated with the OP.

My point - in associating a connection between shadowspawn and the TP/OP, I am stating that they may have a similar relationship with either of these powers.

"...many Aes Sedai chafed under the severe limitations imposed by the natural restrictions of saidin and saidar. Some dreamed of a source of power that would bypass these limitations...One team of researcers at the Collam Daan, including in their number Mierin Eronaile and Beidomon, both Aes Sedai, believed they had actually found that source...It was not an indivisible source of the Ome Power the team had discovered, but the place outside of the Pattern where the Dark One had been imprisoned since the moment of creation. The emanations Mierin and the others had sensed with such hope were his dark energies..." (pg. 40-41)

Again, I don't want to spend a lot of time on these posts, and as I cannot readily find it, I hope you'll consent to a paraphrase. It also states that the Dark One has no physical form, but is rather a spirit. Now, I think it's safe to assume that a non-corporeal being with "dark energies" would use said powers to enact his will. It is also safe to assume that these dark energies are in fact the True Power, as the TP is categorized as something that can be channeled by men and women, and Mierin's team sensed what they believed to be a source of Power that could be channeled by men and women.

Now. When Fain was sent to Shayol Ghul to be turned into a hound, so to speak, that could track down Rand, this transformation must have been made using the TP, as it is the "hand" of the DO so to speak. Therefore, any abilities Fain recieved from this transformation must stem from the TP. Fain's powers that developed after Aridhol were new to both him and Mordeth, and were a subsequent result of their amalgamation. Therefore, as I said, it is not altogether impossible, though admittedly just conjecture, that his powers stem from the TP.

A-Vron: 2007-02-21

Here's one that might be completely off base, but I couldn't find an entry where it's been suggested.

We all know that the blue flash/sparks occur when Thakan'Dar metal strikes Power-wrought steel or more Thakan'Dar metal. We aren't positive if Thom's blades are power-wrought or not, could they perhaps be made of Thakan'Dar metal?

We know that you die if you are cut by a fade's blade, but could Thom have had a dead Myrdraal's sword made into a set of daggers & knives during his years of travels & adventures? It's possible. That would deffinately make them "special" as RJ was quoted saying.

This still does not answer the question of when did the 2 blades come into contact in Whitebridge, but my personal opinion is that they hit at some point as Thom struggled with the fade on the ground after his tackle. After all, the fade wouldn't just give up on drawing the sword just because an old man knocked him on his can for a moment. To me that would be even more reason for him to draw the sword.

aerandir: 2007-08-29

Just a wild thought, but what if Thom's "best knives" are special BECAUSE of the battle with the Fade?

What if the blue flash (whatever its source) caused something to happen to the knives that makes them "special".

Also, I think it's more likely that the quote of 'Thom having lost his best knives', is incorrect than RJ's quote of 'Thom's best knives being special'.

Finaly, it would be true RJ style for the blue flash to have nothing to do with Thom's knives being 'special', but from some other occurence.

Dragon Tamer: 2007-12-06

Here is the direct quote from teotw when Thom loses his knives at SL.

p. 304 paperback

"'My second best knives,' Thom muttered, but he made no effort to go down and retrieve them."

So he wasn't using his best knives escaping SL.

sporkify: 2008-09-07

No.

At least my edition has it written as "best knives" (again, 304, eotw)

abzville1115: 2008-10-22

How do we know that Thom's daggers are not made of Thak'ander. He said they wernt power wrought. How he acheived them would have been a dirty dark story since you need blood to make them. He could have fought some Grey man or something.

Thak'andar could have been made by the True power, though even i am very critical of this, since only Moridin can use it, and im sure that Trollocs cannot channel like draconians in Dragonlance.

The blue flashes before he reaches the myrdraal could have happened due to Thom hurling the daggers...thats what you do with daggers. Myrdraal are freaks at what they do, so blocking the dagger would have been NO problem. As he drew the blade, he knocked away teh hurled dagger - The blades being also thak'andar caused that blinding blue light.

Special Indeed...

eht slat meit: 2010-01-07

Seems most likely to me that the blue flashes had nothing (directly) to do with Thom's daggers. It's coming into contact with a solid power-wrought object (that it might be a weapon is incidental) that produces the blue flashes. They're in Whitebridge, home of one of the best known power-wrought artifacts out of the AoL... the White Bridge itself. More importantly, that bridge comes out onto the square they're in, the square surrounded by inns such as the Wayfarer's Rest that Thom chose. So, the fade is sent sprawling and is on the ground. The fade withdraws its weapon the rest of the way in a very awkward motion, and strikes some element of the bridge... voila, blue flashes? As for the specialness of Thom's daggers, perhaps they're of Thakan'dar metal or something else poisonous to fades, and brought about that clumsiness in a creature that is normally snake-like deadly grace. $0.02

eht slat meit: 2010-01-07

Seems most likely to me that the blue flashes had nothing (directly) to do with Thom's daggers. It's coming into contact with power-wrought materials that causes the flashes, with the fact that they're weapons being incidental. Whitebridge just happens to be the home of one of the most massive power-wrought items, White Bridge itself. Which happens to lead into the square where Wayfarer's Rest is to be found... and so on. So, Thom bashes the fade to the ground, and the fade manages to get its weapon the rest of the way out from an awkward position, striking some element of the bridge. Blue flashes abound, and since Thom isn't grounded by a weapon, he's electrocuted resulting in the screaming. As for the specialness of his daggers? Perhaps they're of some material that can hurt a fade, leading to clumsiness in a creature that would normally have recovered from something so base as a bash. $0.02

sonoftheseventowers: 2010-03-09

I think that you are right. There seem to be no other explination. On my second reread I pondered that closely and my thought was that the Mydraals blade caused it but I hadnt even considered the second part of your theory of meeting a powerwrought blade. It makes sience now especially in tEoftW when Lan is fighting the Mydraal. Thus my reasoning of the Mydraals blade but I do think you are right Thom must be someone very speical indeed.

ksub: 2010-06-21

i would have to say that the TP would count under the category of power wrought blade discounting this option although i considered it too. i havent read teotw in a long time but i seem to remember the answer being quite obvious

Thom as cain: 2010-06-24

Ok, the fade's sword DID NOT HIT THE BRIDGE!!! stop trying!!, it was already said that the fade was in the town square at the time of the fight! yes Thom is someone special, but we don't have a base to work on so don't try to figure out who! and also... YES! THOM'S DAGGERS ARE SPECIAL! but not power wrought! and for a last point, the blue flash was not just sparks, it wasn't even a clearly defined thing, therefor not lightning people! read the description of the event you are discussing! it was more of the air turning blue

terez: 2010-07-05

I think this post needs an update. We have several quotes concerning Thom's daggers and the blue flashes:

Letter to Pam Korda from RJ - 1995

Q: When Fades use their swords, we often see blue flashes when the Fade blade hits another weapon. Is this an interaction between the Fade blade and a specific sort of weapon (such as other Fade blades, or Aes Sedai-forged swords), or an interaction between the Fade blade and any iron, or is it just a special effect with no special basis?
RJ: The reaction is specific. The Fade's sword striking Power-wrought metal.

Netherlands tour, Dromen and Demonen chat - 6 April 2001

Malivar: Do Myrddraal blades flash blue lightning regardless of the blades they strike? Or does it require a power wrought blade? If so, why do the two Fades fighting in the Stone make the flashes?
RJ: Myrddraal blades produce the blue lightning only when they strike their own kind of blade or a blade wrought with the One Power, not simple steel.
Malivar: If a Fade's blade will not produce lightning except against other Thakan'dar wrought blades, and power-wrought blades, why do Thom's daggers produce it when he attacks the Fade at Whitebridge?
RJ: Thom's daggers did not produce the effect. It was produced before Thom reached the Fade.

Marcon, Columbus, OH, May 2001 - Sorilea reporting

Ruhira Sedai: You've said before that the blue flashes during the fight with the Myrddraal in Whitebridge were not from Thom's daggers. What were they from?
RJ: RAFO.

Comment by Sorilea: Wow... I agreed with Ruriha that I really thought we should get an answer to this. Jordan went on to explain that there are three types of ideas that are floating around in his head about the series. Things that he must include, because they are the major turning points for a character, story line, etc; Things he wants to include, because he things they give a little more in depth knowledge about a character, etc; and Things that would be nice to include. Unfortunately he says that the explanation regarding Thom's daggers falls into the last category. But, on the chance that he will get to include it, he doesn't want to give away anything. So hopefully, this means that at some point, we will revisit Whitebridge and find out some more about it, as well as what the flashes were from.

USAToday Chat - 5 January 2004

NY, NY: Why was there a blue light flashing when Thom met the Fade in Whitebridge?
RJ: Because Thom's best knives are very special indeed.

DragonCon 3 September 2005 - Emma reporting

Emma: I started asking him about the two conflicting chats. The question was already sent to him, but he declined to answer it for the Q&A session. I was wondering about why he would do it, but as you might guess when reading his answer, it's because its a RAFO question.

Both answers on the chat are RIGHT!!!! He knows exactly how Thom managed to escape with only a limp and how he managed to survive that. But he might use it in the next book and doesn't want to give away anything. So we have to do it with the knowledge that both answers, although seemingly conflicting are both CORRECT.

So, make of those what you will.

Dovien: 2010-08-11

It seems to me that the simplest answer which matches all the data is that there were (at least) three fades in Whitebridge. The scenario i'm imagining here is that Thom tackles the first chasing fade while a second chasing fade is intercepted by a myrddraal working for Lanfear (who we know was looking out for Rand around this time).

This explains how Thom survived as well as the blue flashes and even why he wouldn't talk about it afterwards. Granted it doesn't resolve the secret of his daggers but I think that's a minor detail beside the amount of things it unifies.

terez: 2010-08-12

@Dovien - why would three Fades explain it? Also, Thom indicated later that there was only one. I doubt even he could have survived three. He said the one Fade lost interest in him as soon as the boys ran away.

Dovien: 2010-08-15

Three fades would explain it because blue flashes are caused by thakandar steel as well as power-wrought steel and because we have other examples of shadowspawn fighting shadowspawn. Thom didn't have to fight all three, I'm suggesting he was saved by or more. Are you sure he specifically says only one? He may be lying to protect them or to prevent them asking questions he doesn't know the answers to.

Stygian2022: 2011-01-09

Just had a thought... what if the flashes were the reaction to a trap laid there by the Power. Fades are supposed to inhumanly fast, how can Thom (an old man) possibly get there fast enough for the Fade to only half draw it's weapon? Whitebridge is supposedly from the Age of Legends, why not have defenses built around it and forgotten? Another example of this might be the metal spike mentioned by Bayle Domon earlier that's aimed at humans.