f Gholam And Finns
by Odin442: 2004-08-17 | 3 out of 10 (2 votes)
It seems more or less obvious to me that Aginor could not have created the Gholam on his own, or even with whatever assistants and resources he had back in the day, and that he did so only with outside help. Finn help. One major reason for this, mostly because the Gholam have abilities no one else has or can duplicate. Specifically, they act as a walking, talking (sneering?), living Power outage. A blown fuse in the fusebox of the world, so to speak. No one else knows how that works, no one can duplicate that, and if Aginor could do it himself, I think it quite likely he would have by now. Any other Shadowspawn abilities revealed to us thus far can be duplicated (in theory) with the proper application of the One Power. It does not appear that The One Power can be used to duplicate the Gholam's abilities, but there is one thing that CAN. Specifically, mat's medallion, given him by the Finns. Thus far, the Finns are the only ones I can recall who have access to anything that does somethign even remotely similar to what the Gholam does. Similarly, it's the only thing that seems to bother the Gholam (barring hunger). Putting these two observations together, I think it is not too far a stretch of logic or imagination to think of Aginor, presented with the problem of creating a perfect counter for Aes Sedai combatants in the Age of Legends, wandering into Finnland (that is, assuming they had access to Finnland in the AoL. I assume they did, but I don't have my books with me, so I may be mistaken) and, with his three wishes, getting himself a trio of Gholam pairs. This would explain why power immunity is limited to the Gholam and Mat's medallion and, with a little speculation on the interactions of Finn artifacts outside of Finnland, possibly even give us an explanation for why Mat's Medallion is the only thing that bothers them.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2004-11-12
(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
But why would the *Finns help Aginor create Shadowspawn? Especially since "questions touching the Shadow have dire consequences." (tSR Ch. 6)
2
Dorindha: 2004-11-12
I don't particularly agree with this - Aginor could have done it - maybe the gholam is one of the dire consequences?
3
Stilicho: 2004-11-12
Come on Tamyrlin, think! What better way to suffer "dire consequences" than have the gholam turn on the forsaken? I don't have the quote available, but I'm sure that we've seen some indication from RJ that even thought the gholam are supposed to obey the forsaken, that control can be rather shaky...maybe this is a hint(as opposed to foreshadowing-which RJ uses ALOT)of more to come. Now I don't think there is proof for either side on this theory right now, but I do think it is intriguing and deserves futher exploration.
4
Great Lord of the Dark: 2004-11-12
There may be other links between the Shadow and the Finns. After all, Lanfear was held by them for some time, and Moridin got her back.
5
Chrono: 2004-11-12
Firstly Tamyrlin, there are two groups of finn, the type that answer questions (snakes) and the type that grant wishes (foxes), it is the type that answer questions that give dire consequences to those that ask questions about the shadow, this deal would involve the other type. As far as I can see the foxes will grant any wish, for the right price.
6
Callandor: 2004-11-12
**It seems more or less obvious to me that Aginor could not have created the Gholam on his own, or even with whatever assistants and resources he had back in the day, and that he did so only with outside help.**
No indication of that. Plus, everyone else attributes their creation to Aginor, so I don't see the division here.
**No one else knows how that works, no one can duplicate that, and if Aginor could do it himself, I think it quite likely he would have by now.**
???
Aginor made them in the AoL. If you mean more numbers, why would they need more?
**Any other Shadowspawn abilities revealed to us thus far can be duplicated (in theory) with the proper application of the One Power. It does not appear that The One Power can be used to duplicate the Gholam's abilities, but there is one thing that CAN. Specifically, mat's medallion, given him by the Finns.**
Mat's medallion comes from the AoL.... Can't find the interview quote at the moment, but the Finns themselves did not make it.
** This would explain why power immunity is limited to the Gholam and Mat's medallion and, with a little speculation on the interactions of Finn artifacts outside of Finnland, possibly even give us an explanation for why Mat's Medallion is the only thing that bothers them.**
What about Nynaeve's ter'angreals? They work quite similar in defense.
7
jason wolfbrother: 2004-11-14
Who says the *finn made Mat's medallion? isn't it just as plausible that the medallion was part of a price for some other adventurer that stumbled through that doorway at some time in the past?
8
charliec: 2004-11-14
The questions touching the shadow lark applies to the snakes... but does it apply to the foxes?
I agree that this is a possibility, but we've been told that Aginor CREATED the Gholam, which does imply that he managed it somehow. To say that in that case he should have made some since ignores the possiblities that a) his work depended on a complex infrastructure of scientific equipment (I'm a physicist, but couldn't create a laser from first principles without the proper equipment), or b) not even Aginor would be nuts enough to make even more Gholam...
9
Reddrgn: 2004-11-15
Yes, they did have access to Finnland in the AoL. The Angreals used to do so are from the AoL, but I too don't have my books on me to give you a quote on this.
10
Lan: 2004-11-15
I haven't heard about this, so please forgive my ignorance if it is apparent. We all assume that the two redstone doorways follow all the same rules, but why? Granted we have the children's rhyme which seems to apply to both, but there's nowhere in that Rhyme that says anything about the Shadow. Also, Id like to point out that Cyndane mentions being held by the Finn, they didn't kill her right away(if they even did it, but I digress) and if anything touches the shadow more than one of the Forsaken, I don't know what it is. It seems to me to be entirely in the realm of possibility that Aginor took a little trip though the doorway we found in Rhuidean back during the War of Power. The other thought Id like to put forward is that perhaps the research that led to the Gholam was begun prior to his turning to the Shadow, and he made a trip then through then. Perhaps something in the white guide can shed a little light on it(Im at sea and don't have it with me.)
11
lurk: 2004-11-15
Maybe Aginor was clever and asked for a way to defeat channelers. Channeling is prohibited in finnland. Maybe Aginor struck a deal with the finns to get rid of channelers outside finnland. Just my two cents
12
Callandor: 2004-11-15
**Come on Tamyrlin, think! What better way to suffer "dire consequences" than have the gholam turn on the forsaken?**
But they don't.... As per RJ.
**Question:
How were the Gholams made? Were they created or bred like the Trollocs? How exactly are they controlled if they are immune to the One Power?
Robert Jordan Answers:
The gholam—singular and plural are the same—were created, not bred. Supposedly their creation involved making them so that they would be obedient to the Chosen, whoever they might be at any given time. This was an attempt at copying something that had turned up in Myrddraal, which seem incapable of disobeying one of the Chosen, possibly because of the use of the True Power in creation of the Trollocs, the parent stock of the Myrddraal. Even Aginor, who created the Trollocs, and thus indirectly the Myrddraal, was uncertain about the actual cause. (Becoming one of the Forsaken involves receiving a mark from the Dark One in return for your oaths; this mark is invisible and cannot be sensed by another human being, even another of the Forsaken, but it can be by certain non-human creatures, including Myrddraal and draghkar among others. This may play a part in the Myrddraal's obedience but doesn't explain it completely.) This element in gholam has some flaws, however, as we have seen in a small measure. In any case, if I were you, I wouldn't try giving orders to a gholam unless I were one of the Forsaken.**
Simply being a Forsaken, is the command for the gholam.
** Firstly Tamyrlin, there are two groups of finn, the type that answer questions (snakes) and the type that grant wishes (foxes), it is the type that answer questions that give dire consequences to those that ask questions about the shadow, this deal would involve the other type. As far as I can see the foxes will grant any wish, for the right price.**
Everything we have seen link the Aelfinn and Eelfinn. Their dimension almost assuredly shares the same characteristics and rules. Everything seen between both races, and every mention of them, has them linked.
Why suppose otherwise?
13
fistandantilus: 2004-11-17
During the creation of the gholam, couldn't Aginor have set up the weaves that would absorb the one power to activate themselve upon the final creation? Something along the lines of Verin's cumpulsion, when she got done, she pulled the strands and the weave snapped into place.
14
Dorindha: 2004-11-17
To everyone who gives reasons for not making more gholems, 6 were made, three like men and three like women, this suggests he knew what he was doing and they were not just random creations, and that they were made for a purpose (which we know is killing channellers)
15
Stilicho: 2004-11-17
Callandor: The RJ quote is also the basis for my point. Yes, the Gholam recognize and obey the FS, but, in them, this trait has "flaws." My point was simply that we don't yet know what form these "flaws" take and that it could very well turn out to be a certain disregard for th FS' authority. We HAVE seen how nervous the Gholam make the FS and it could be that this nervousness is based on the Gholam's less than perfect obedience in addition to their immunity to the OP.
16
udernation: 2004-11-18
* This element in gholam has some flaws, however, as we have seen in a small measure.
Um...callandor. He's suggesting the small flaws are the 'dire consequences'.
BUT why do we presuppose that simply because aginor was a chosen, he counts as 'hinting towards teh dark one'. If he made no mention, simply asked for something, there would be no consequences, regardless of his intent. They don't read minds, they merely don't like the dark one.
Anyway, i quite like this theory. It's hinting towards something, and has got me thinking about the connection.
17
Callandor: 2004-11-18
**Channeling is prohibited in finnland.**
Where is this said? Rand was able to channel perfectly fine in Aelfinnland.
18
udernation: 2004-11-21
It wasn't perfectly fine. Moiraine said something about different laws of physics, and rands 'fire' was sickening colour and stench, although i can't remember the quote...
19
jaellon: 2004-11-22
** It does not appear that The One Power can be used to duplicate the Gholam's abilities ... **
We have not seen it done, true, but we have seen a similar thing. The creation of cuendillar happens by using the One Power to change the nature of stone or metal so that any force directed at it increases its own strength. At some point in the creation of the cuendillar you have to reach a point where the metal is no longer destroyable by the one power, and at that point it is cuendillar.
For Mat's medallion or a gholam, all you would have to do is weave the correct flows until the metal/flesh becomes gholamedallionite. At that point, any further flows would be negated, but you would have the result you were looking for.
20
Callandor: 2004-11-24
**It wasn't perfectly fine. Moiraine said something about different laws of physics, and rands 'fire' was sickening colour and stench, although i can't remember the quote...**
Different quote then what I am thinking of.
**TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 15 - Into the Doorway
*A boot appeared, backing out of the twisted stone doorway, followed by the rest of Rand, with that fiery sword in his hands. The blade vanished as he stepped clear, and he heaved a sigh of relief.* Even in the dim light, Mat could see he was troubled, though. He gave a start when he saw Mat. "Just poking around; Mat? Or did you go through, too?" Mat eyed him warily for a moment. At least that sword was gone. He did not seem to be channeling-though how was anybody to tell?-and he did not look particularly like a mad-man. In fact, he looked very much as Mat remembered. He had to remind himself they were not back home any longer, and Rand was not what he remembered. "Oh, I went through, all right. A bunch of bloody liars, if you ask me! What are they? Made me think of snakes."
"Not liars, I think." Rand sounded as if he wished they were. "No, not that. They were afraid of me, right from the first. And when that tolling started. . . . The sword kept them back; they wouldn't even look at it. Shied away. Hid their eyes. Did you get your answers?"**
So, I don't know what you are submitting.
21
Joar Addam Nesossin: 2005-02-06
Just thought I'd mention something:
At some point in books 5-7 (I'm pretty sure that's right) we get Graendal's point of view (I think during one of her trips to Sammael, or Sammael's trips to her. Probably one of hers to him) and she thinks something about having a "bad experience" - I think those are the exact words - with a gholam. Possibly this is evidence of the gholam's flaws. Perhaps another Forsaken had ordered it to kill her and her or orders didn't override it, or it had been damaged and was malfunctioning somehow....who can say, definitely?
Anyway...I don't know whether that was helpful or not, but it seems to have slipped everyone elses' minds.
22
Jammer: 2005-02-06
it seems to me the gholam are actually products of the one power. The nature of the one power would make them invulnarable with it: you can't destroy a weave by destroying the threads, only by unweaving them, EXCEPT mat's medallion, which does destroy threads. That's why it can hurt them.
23
JollyW89: 2005-04-05
In one of the books a foresaken says that she had tried to make a Myddrayl try and tell her how it did the vanishing act. Since Aginor created Trollocs and therefore Myddrayl, and he doesnt know how they do it why should he know how Gholam do what they do?
24
joebball1212: 2005-06-28
Ummm you have a few points here, but the main thing you're forgetting is that Matt's medallion is a ter'angreal, and ter'angreal are made by Aes Sedai from the AoL...Therefore it is possible that Aginor created the gholam by himself, and very liekly did which is why they are limited to 6.
25
mb: 2008-09-16
If Aginor had help from the Eelfinn when creating gholam, I think Osangar's memories might have told so.
Also, no other Forsaken besides Lanfear is known to have had contact with them (for any amount of time); and that only once.
Maybe the Eelfinn used their knowledge of gholam to create Mat's medallion.
26
terez: 2008-09-22
Mat's medallion was made during the Breaking. They either got it from another person that visited their realm or from the courtyard outside the doorway, where all the objects of the Power were just lying around.
27
Ozymandias: 2008-09-25
Mat's medallion was made during the Breaking. "They either got it from another person that visited their realm or from the courtyard outside the doorway, where all the objects of the Power were just lying around."
Where is the evidence for this? a.) that it was made during the Breaking, and b.) that the Eelfinn are even capable of leaving their own lands?
28
terez: 2008-10-05
There’s no specific reference to when Mat’s medallion was made, but it’s fairly easy to deduce from other references:
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TITLE: Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 23 - To Lose the Sun
"It is not exactly a secret," Sarene said at last, and not very willingly for something that was not a secret, "but neither is it well known. We do not speak of Far Madding often, except for sisters born there, and even they seldom visit. Still, you should know before you enter. The city possesses a ter'angreal. Or perhaps it is three ter'angreal. No one knows. They – or it - cannot be studied any more than they can be removed. They must have been made during the Breaking, when fear of madmen channeling the Power was the matter of every day. But to pay such a price for the safety." The beaded braids dangling onto her chest rattled together as she shook her head in disbelief. "These ter'angreal, they duplicate a stedding. In the important ways at least, I fear, though I suppose an Ogier would not think so." She gave a doleful sigh.
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TITLE: Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 35 - With the Choedan Kal
Fire erupted in the forest, great explosions spun of saidin that hurled trees into the air on gouts of flame that sped toward him, but he was already weaving a gateway. Leaping through, he let it vanish and ran through the vine-draped trees as hard as he could, plowing through patches of snow, stumbling over rocks hidden in the mulch, but not slowing down, never that. The web had been reversed, for caution's sake, but so had the first, and he had been a soldier. Still running, he heard the explosions he expected, and knew they were racing toward where his gateway had been as surely as they had raced straight toward him among the ruins. They were far enough from him now to present no danger, though. Without slowing, he turned toward the access key. With the amount of saidin pouring through it, there might as well have been a fiery arrow in the sky pointing to al'Thor.
So. Unless someone in this accursed Age had discovered yet another unknown ability, al'Thor must have acquired a device, a ter'angreal, that could detect a man channeling. From what he knew of what people now called the Breaking, after he himself had been imprisoned at Shayol Ghul, any woman who knew how to make ter'angreal would have been trying to create one that would do that. In war, the other side always came up with something you did not expect, and you had to counter it. He had always been good at war. First, he needed to get closer.
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TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight
CHAPTER: 23 – Ornaments
More interesting, more disturbing, was the jewelry Nynaeve wore, a long gold necklace and slim gold belt, with matching bracelets and finger rings, the gaudy red and green and blue gems that studded them clashing with her yellow-slashed dress. And she wore that peculiar piece as well, on her left hand, golden rings attached to a golden bracelet by flat chains. That was an angreal, much stronger than Cadsuane's shrike hair ornament. The others were much like her own decorations, too, ter'angreal and plainly made at the same time, during the Breaking of the World, when an Aes Sedai might find many hands turned against her, most especially those of men who could channel. Strange to think that they had been called Aes Sedai, too. It would be like meeting a man called Cadsuane.
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We can deduce from these three quotes that the Breaking was a time where many ter’angreal were made to the purpose of defending against insane channeling men, and also that Demandred had never heard of a ter’angreal that could detect a man channeling (Mat’s ter’angreal does this, in addition to breaking weaves). Cadsuane has an ornament that does essentially the same thing as Mat’s medallion:
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RJ's blog 4 October 2005 "ONE MORE TIME"
For Krassos, yes, a channeler could still channel wearing Mat’s amulet. Cadsuane has one much like it. And I think that I will complete “Trust†[The Color of Trust] eventually. I think about doing so every now and then.
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If Cadsuane’s was made during the Breaking, then it’s safe to assume that Mat’s was also.
As for the ‘Finns being able to leave their realm, it’s obvious that they can at least to a certain extent, or they would not have been able to hang Mat from Avendesora. Of course, it's more likely that they got the medallion from one of the adventurers that entered their realm, but it's fairly certain they didn't make it, since they don't use the Power at all.
