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ow Siuan got her groove back
by Frenzy: 2005-04-29 | 5.83 out of 10 (12 votes)
Previous Categories: Miscellaneous Theories
Both the Warder Bond and the Oath Rod's bindings involve weaves of Spirit. Those weaves of Spirit need something to anchor themselves to, to Bond the channeler to the Warder or to bind the channeler to the Oaths. That "something" is the channeler's connection to the True Source. If that connection is cut, the Spirit Weaves have nothing to anchor themselves to the channeler, so they too are cut loose.
The difference between an Oath and a Warder, though, is that a Warder has a soul. One end of the Spirit weave has been cut loose of it's anchor, but the other hasn't. The Bond widow(er) then has to bear the entire weight of the Bond, which could explain why Warders get suicidal and Aes Sedai get "moody."
Lord of Chaos CHAPTER: 30 - To Heal Again
"With the sound of his boots behind her, she managed to make it around the corner into the crossing hallway before the dam burst and she sank to her knees weeping piteously. She knew what it was, now. Alric, her Warder. Her dead Warder, murdered when Elaida deposed her. She could lie—the Three Oaths were still gone—but some part of her bond to Alric, a bond flesh to flesh and mind to mind, had been resurrected. The pain of his death, the pain first masked by the shock of what Elaida intended and then buried by stilling, that pain filled her to the brim.
Then add in something new: the channeler's connection to the True Source is restored. Suddenly the second anchor for the Spirit Weaves returns. So the Bond re-anchors itself to the channeler. Which would explain why Siuan suddenly regained her Bond to Alric. Alric was dead, but the dead still have souls.
Oaths do not. Since a Binding is entirely a one-person affair, there's nothing to anchor the Spirit Weave that created the Oath once the connection to the True Source is cut. So the Oath vanishes, leaving nothing to regain once the connection to the True Source is restored.
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2005-05-03
Generally, I agree with the description you propose. I am trying to understand where the bonding occurs, in terms of the connections we know that exist. One from the Source to the Soul. The second from Soul to Body. Being stilled, the cut is made between the second, between the Soul and the body, enabling the stilled channeler to detect the OP, but unable to touch. This same stilled channeler can no longer feel anything of the warder though...If the bond was attached from soul to soul, one could assume the stilled channeler would be able to know a connection existed, but be unable to know the thoughts or touch the warder's mind...I need to think about this for a while. But, Frenzy, are you of the opinion that a warder and channeler would still be connected, if a channeler was stilled and then quickly healed, would the warder and channeler be reconnected? I am of the opinion, at this point, they would not be reconnected. I believe the bond is cut, and the healing of the stilling enables the channeler to sense the cut, similar to their ability to sense the loss of channeling ability when stilled. In other words, it would appear the bonding is flesh to flesh, mind to mind, but not spirit to spirit?
Callandor: 2005-05-03
**Alric was dead, but the dead still have souls.**
That's the only drawback have from agreeing to this. I just don't think the Warder bond links the souls of the two indiviuals. The quote you gave Frenzy explictly said mind to mind, and as show by Rand (not the greatest example ;)) things in the mind of people need not automatically apply to their souls.
MatCauthon: 2005-05-04
I think its more that before she was feeling more grief for the lose of the ability to channel than for the lost bond.
When she was healed she then had the ability to channel once again but it was different since she no longer had a bond to a warder which she was used to before. This made her realize again that her warder was dead.
Basically, it was a delayed reaction grieving due to her being preoccupied by the lose of the OP as well as escaping Elaida and pushing the rebels the direction she wanted to go.
a dragonburned fool: 2005-05-04
Am I understanding correctly, that this theory is assuming that the Warder Bond is actually a standing weave, most likely a tied-off weave? If so, how would this weave survive visits of Aes Sedai into steddings and in Far Madding, while both have the property to unravel the weaves attempting to pass through their boundary? Also IIRC the references in the books make a comparison not between Bonds and other weaves, but between bonds and links - Bonds are regarded to be a derivation from the linking techniques.
Also I have problems with the idea that Bonds are anchored to the souls even after Warder's death. Besides the problems pointed out by Tamyrlin and Callandor, I think this idea will have very surprising implications for the next rebirths of the Aes Sedai and the Warder - new fresh persons will come in the world, one of them will develop channeling ability at some point, and in this time the weave from the previous incarnation that was flying around meanwhile, will find the souls and anchor itself to them again and the novice in the White Tower will suddenly realize a strange affiliation to some man she never met before...
JakOShadows: 2005-05-04
Frenzy:
It might also have something to do with the fact the he died, in your case, before she was stilled. The weave would still be tied to her afterwards, even if she was stilled. But even this seems very unlikely even though she was stilled. The only way it would work is if it was still tied to the soul or mind, but required the one source for it to manifest. And that didn't work for the three oaths, so I think it was cut when she was stilled and when Alric died.
The Dragons Steward of The Mat Fan Club: 2005-05-04
OK, so let's say hypothetically, that Rand is stilled and cut off from the source.
What would happen to his 4 bonds with Elayne, Aviendha, Alanna, and Min? In the case of the first three, you can argue that since their channeling and use of the OP made the bond in the first place, nothing would happen, since it would be like a regular channeller-to-non-channeller bond.
What about Min? Rand never used the OP
The Dragons Steward of The Mat Fan Club: 2005-05-04
So I hit "submit" before I meant to last time.
I know, I'm a newbie, go ahead and laugh at the stupid newbie.
Anyway, to continue, since, if I remember correctly, Rand never used the OP to bond Min, but instead Elayne and Avi did, what would happened if Rand was stilled with his bond to Min? Is it possible to have a non-channeller-to-non-channeller bond? Or would he be cut off from that one but keep the other three?
red hand: 2005-05-04
This was one of the situtations that I can't get my head around. Siuan was in her office when they came in to arrest her. As she was leaving, she saw her warder head with a knife in his back. Where was the bond then? No reaction from him?? This has always bothered me. Please help!
MatCauthon: 2005-05-05
I think since Rand is the Warder (or the bondee, if you will) and not the AS (or the bonder) if he gets stilled it shouldn't effect anyone else thats bonded to him. It wasn't his weave, it was Elayne's. Now the question would be what happens to Min and Aviendha if Elayne gets stilled or dies? Not much I think since its also partially the Aeil "bond" for making first-sisters or first-brothers. But if she dies...?
red hand, I've also wondered why Siuan didn't notice her warder getting killed until she saw him dead. Very odd.
WinespringBrother: 2005-05-05
Not only did Rand's bond survive Far Madding, it actually functioned there - Rand could sense both Min and Alanna through it. And Fain's "bond" with Rand also worked there.
Interestingly enough, the World of Dreams is also accessible there since Slayer traveled there through Tel'aran'rhiod (though not in Steddings, Shayol Ghul or Rhuidean before Rand visited there). Perhaps TAR is a conduit for these bonds to function, since they are manifestations of spirit clearly. I wonder if there are cords there that could be cut like Aginor's and Ishamael's.
Frenzy: 2005-05-05
Tamyrlin said: “But, Frenzy, are you of the opinion that a warder and channeler would still be connected, if a channeler was stilled and then quickly healed, would the warder and channeler be reconnected?”
I think Siuan's reconnection to Alric confirms that.
Tamyrlin also said: “I am trying to understand where the bonding occurs, in terms of the connections we know that exist. One from the Source to the Soul. The second from Soul to Body. ... it would appear the bonding is flesh to flesh, mind to mind, but not spirit to spirit?”
If the bond between channeler and warder were not affiliated with the channeler's connection to the True Source, then why is the Warder Bond snapped when the channeler is stilled?
MatCauthon said: “Basically, it was a delayed reaction grieving due to her being preoccupied by the lose of the OP as well as escaping Elaida and pushing the rebels the direction she wanted to go.”
That would assume that Siuan's reactions to her dead Warder (and every other Aes Sedai in the same predicament) were voluntary. The evidence proves otherwise.
a dragonburned fool said: “Am I understanding correctly, that this theory is assuming that the Warder Bond is actually a standing weave, most likely a tied-off weave?”
No, it isn't. I seriously doubt it's a standing or tied-off weave, since Aes Sedai have been seen entering Stedding and Far Madding without losing their Warders. i think bonding a Warder is like Healing: it alters the physical/mental/spiritual state of the person (or persons) it's used upon. Once the weave is done, the people involved are altered. There's no need to maintain the weave, or tie it off.
aDBF also said: “Also I have problems with the idea that Bonds are anchored to the souls even after Warder's death.”
i agree with you here. But Bonding is a new technique, as we've seen mentioned by Moridin. At least it's new to Second Agers. Birgitte makes a comment right after she's Bonded to Elayne that she has no memory of a woman Warder, and at that point Birgitte still has a ~very~ long memory. So maybe it isn't entirely new. But that isn't the point. When have the extremely long-term implications of an act been a major factor in new discoveries? It usually isn't until after the pooch is screwed that we see the flaws of certain actions, activities or designs.
JakOShadows said: “It might also have something to do with the fact the he died, in your case, before she was stilled.”
This may very well be. We won't know for sure unless one of the stilled sisters from Dumai's wells comments on it.
Red hand: i've often wondered about that too. Callandor, do you know if anyone's asked that of Jordan in an interview? (i vaguely remember someone doing it, but i could be wrong.)
Callandor: 2005-05-06
**JakOShadows said: “It might also have something to do with the fact the he died, in your case, before she was stilled.”
This may very well be. We won't know for sure unless one of the stilled sisters from Dumai's wells comments on it.
Red hand: i've often wondered about that too. Callandor, do you know if anyone's asked that of Jordan in an interview? (i vaguely remember someone doing it, but i could be wrong.)**
I don't remember anything like that coming up in interviews that I have read.
However, one could read into this statement a few things:
**TITLE: Winter's Heart, CHAPTER: 13 - Wonderful News
"I have the most wonderful news, Cadsuane." By the sound of her, she was not all certain how wonderful it was. "I know you said I should keep Damer busy here in the Palace, but he insisted on looking at the sisters still in the Aiel camp. Mild-tempered as he is, he's very insistent when he wants to be, and sure as the sun there's nothing can't be Healed. And, well, the fact of it is, he's gone and Healed Irgain. ~Cadsuane, it's as if she'd never been . . ."~ She trailed off, unable to say the word. It hung in the air even so. Stilled.**
Obviously, it ties directly to her seeming to have never been stilled, but could it also mean that she is not suffering the same consquences of having her Warders die (especially in her case, since she had 2 Warders!)? Could be, but it's of course debatable.
JakOShadows: 2005-05-06
Callandor:
In that quote, it was a good reference, but it might not help us at all in this. I don't remember what ajah she's in and I don't have my books with me. But weren't a lot of the sisters involved with kidnapping Rand Red Ajah. And since they never bond warders, they would never know what happens. Someone double check her ajah just in case though?
Dorindha: 2005-05-06
Just to pick up on something in your reply to dbf - that bonding alters the individuals. This is precisely the answer - they altered in such a way that they are linked by some conduit of the OP. When the AS is severed, the connection to the conduit is lost, so when restored, it is regained. As you explain, oaths are specific to one person, so work differently.
I agree with your reasoning :).
Callandor: 2005-05-06
**In that quote, it was a good reference, but it might not help us at all in this. I don't remember what ajah she's in and I don't have my books with me. But weren't a lot of the sisters involved with kidnapping Rand Red Ajah. And since they never bond warders, they would never know what happens. Someone double check her ajah just in case though?**
As I said, Irgain had 2 Warders -- she lost both when she was stilled.
KaraK: 2005-05-07
an interesting question on this one would be - can anyone think of an instance either happening or described in the books of a severed/stilled/gentled channeler with a surviving warder? And what that was actually like?
clarkkd: 2005-05-07
Just a few questions for now :)
1. Far Madding and Steddings, don't they act more like a shield then away to unravel weaves?
2. To channel you need to have a soul that channels and a body that channels?
Thanks for the help
JakOShadows: 2005-05-08
I just noticed a subtlety here we might have been overlooking. When Siuan was healed and reconnected to the true source, it was done using saidar, so maybe she could still sense her bond after that. Where as Irgain was healed by Flynn, who was using saidin, so maybe the warder bond couldn't be reconnected throught he saidin. Or it could be the method they used too, because there has also been talk about how the might have used different methods which resulted in different strength. I think there's something between their new links to the source though, that cause their connection to their warder to be picked up or not picked up.
Aiel Finn: 2005-05-09
I think that the grief Suian felt is not because of the way she was heled, but because the bond broke before she was stilled. The greif from that was already a part of her "channeling self" before she was stilled, the reason that she didn't feel it was that she could not reach that part of herself until Nyn healed her. The other sisters who Damer healed did not have that hole/grief in their channeling selves, thus no abject dispair.
Frenzy: 2005-05-26
Karak says: can anyone think of an instance either happening or described in the books of a severed/stilled/gentled channeler with a surviving warder? And what that was actually like?
i can think of 2: Irgain and Moiraine (but she died) One of Irgain's two apparently had fallen over dead from the shock of her being stilled, and the other had died trying to kill thousands of Aiel without making any effort to escape. Lan's bond was transferred to Myrelle. Lan tells Nynaeve that when a Warder's Aes Sedai dies that things change within him, but she cut him off and dragged his fool behind back onto the Sea Folk vessel and married him. So we don't know the specifics of what changes within the Warder when his Aes Sedai dies/is stilled.
Ieyasu: 2006-05-26
It will be very interesting to see what happens to Moiraine's bond with lan when she returns.
will the bond return to her as well?
Callandor: 2006-05-28
**It will be very interesting to see what happens to Moiraine's bond with lan when she returns.
will the bond return to her as well?**
No. The bond was cut/released. Lan felt and experienced (and still is) the after effects of this.
Ieyasu: 2006-05-30
yes and the warders who were bonded to women who were stilled also reacted like men who lost thier aes sedai.
so presedense has been shown that the breaking of the bond doesnt neccesitate the death of the sister.
hence why it will be interesting to see what happens to lans bond should moraine return, it could very well return as well, or perhaps an echo, since the bond also transfered...
we'll see soon enough
JakOShadows: 2006-06-01
Ieyasu:
I see what you are trying to say, but I think this is fairly cut and dry. It is possible that Moiraine was stilled, but then that means that if she was healed the bond would not be reformed as seen with Siuan. Siuan was just feeling the after effects of the loss, since she was stilled before her warder died. Basicly, she was still carrying the excess baggage around all that time, since she couldn't sense it and deal with it. And if Moiraine can still channel, then that means she personally passed the bond herself, so as to prevent Lan from doing anything stupid. Which means that Myrelle would have to physically pass it back to Moiraine, which we know won't happen. So while there are still several different variations of how it can happen, none of them result in Lan reforming the bond with Moiraine.
Callandor: 2006-06-01
**so presedense has been shown that the breaking of the bond doesnt neccesitate the death of the sister.
hence why it will be interesting to see what happens to lans bond should moraine return, it could very well return as well, or perhaps an echo, since the bond also transfered...**
No one is saying that because the bond is gone that Moiraine is dead. We know Moiraine is alive for now beyond a doubt.
But we also know beyond a doubt that the bond is gone. Lan knows it, he told us. Lan knows it, he's suffering still the consequences from it.
Whether the bond was released, severed due to stilling, severed due to the collapse of the doorway, or something else does not matter in the least -- the bond is no more; the bond is gone completely.
: 2006-06-03
I don't think that the Lan's bond is of any importance since before Moiraine went through the twisted doorframe ter'angreal she had altered her bond to Lan so that he would be transfered to another (Myrelle) in case of her death:
The Fires of Heaven, Fading Winds, 898
"Moiraine did something to me that has not been done in hundreds of years...She altered my bond so it passed to another when she died."
This would be the same as passing a bond to someone else in life; the bond ceases to exist and there would be no reaction to Lan's bond when Moiraine returns since there is no bond.
We also know that Myrelle is to transfer the bond to Nynaeve when she was considered ready for Lan but that has yet to happen and Lan and Nyn are married and were together for a while until rescently when Lan was taken to the Borderlands by Nyn.
Ieyasu: 2006-06-05
Callandor-
*No one is saying that because the bond is gone that Moiraine is dead. We know Moiraine is alive for now beyond a doubt.*
no, actually we dont 'know' any such thing. we have seen a letter written before she 'died'. we have min's viewing. we have lots of things leading us to believe shes still alive. but we dont KNOW what has occured in the tower of genji. basically, we BELIEVE, but we dont KNOW.
but this is just a matter of phrasing. i personally believe that she is alive, however. its *not* a fact until we read it. :)
*But we also know beyond a doubt that the bond is gone. Lan knows it, he told us. Lan knows it, he's suffering still the consequences from it.*
yes, and the bonds were *gone* from sisters severed at dumanai's well, thier warders reacted the same as sisters who die. we also know that when the sister was healed, the severed bond WHICH WAS GONE, returned to the sisters, even though thier oaths did not. being as we have no idea as to moiraines condition, it would be silly to offhandly discard a possibility that has been shown to happen already. with cyndane being a weaked lanfear and the suspicion of her having been healed via nyn-woman weave, it is perfectly possible that moiraine too, has lost the ability to channel, whether or not this is a severing or a burning out is unknown. she could return without any healable ability to channel, ya know ;), (that would completely cancel out the possibility of a resurgance of her bond, imo), but if cyndane is a possible example, and severing has been shown to END the bond so that it is, as you said *GONE*, then it is possible a portion of the bond will go back to moiraine, perhaps she will be aware of lan and he wont be aware of her, or perhaps the full bond will return, or perhaps jsut a fait echo, who knows. but based on prior happenings within the book it is a perfectly reasonable possibility.
*Whether the bond was released, severed due to stilling, severed due to the collapse of the doorway, or something else does not matter in the least -- the bond is no more; the bond is gone completely.*
so what? that shows NO evidence that the bond cant reappear. the bond was GONE COMPLETELY from the warders of the stilled sisters at the wells!
it CAME BACK with the healing of the servering.
also, remember this wasnt a conscious passing that moiraine did. as she told lan, it was something that hasnt been done in a LONG time. her bond was set, or programmed to pass at the breaking of the bond, i dont know if that means at the end of her life, or the end of her ability to HAVE a bond (which severing obviously ENDs COMPELTELY)
i think since it HAS been passed to myr, its not too likely to transfer back in full, but i do believe a vestige of the bond returning isnt all that far fetched. or maybe or something akin to the rand/girls-tribond .
thats why i think it will be interesting to see what will happen with that bond we she returns.
nothing you have posted however, discredits the possibility.
Ieyasu: 2006-06-05
JakOShadows:
*I see what you are trying to say, but I think this is fairly cut and dry. It is possible that Moirasine was stilled, but then that means that if she was healed the bond would not be reformed as seen with Siuan. Siuan was just feeling the after effects of the loss, since she was stilled before her warder died.*
i believe he died as they came for her prior to her being stilled, she didnt notice he was dead till they brought her from her office going to the cells, so her warder died prior to her being stilled, but she isnt a good example either way, being as her warder wasnt alive when she got healed.
the sisters at the wells were severed, thier bonds were broken, it was gone, the warders reacted the same as lan. one died, one lived, later when the sisters were healed the bond to the living warder returned to the sister as well.
*And if Moiraine can still channel, then that means she personally passed the bond herself, so as to prevent Lan from doing anything stupid. Which means that Myrelle would have to physically pass it back to Moiraine, which we know won't happen.*
yes, i would completely agree that if she willingly, consciously passed the bond then there should be no reason/possibility to think that it would return.
i believe that cyn/fear being in a weaked state could be an example that she was stilled/severed, which does suggest the same could of happened with moiraine. because of what we have seen with cyn/fear, i think it is more likely moiraine lost the ability to SUISTAIN the bond rather than consciously passed it.
*So while there are still several different variations of how it can happen, none of them result in Lan reforming the bond with Moiraine.*
i agree there are many ways this could play out without a reforming of the bond, but to say there are NONE? no possible variations in which the bond could return? a portion of it? NO CHANCE AT ALL?
i think the books have shown sufficent examples of something similiar occuring.
i would think it would return in full if not for the passing... thats the part that makes this scenero so interesting to me. thats also the key thing that may cancel out any possibility of it returning as well, neh?
i look forward to reading how it resolves.
Tamyrlin: 2006-06-06
Ieyasu, you wrote: "i think since it HAS been passed to myr, its not too likely to transfer back in full, but i do believe a vestige of the bond returning isnt all that far fetched. or maybe or something akin to the rand/girls-tribond .
thats why i think it will be interesting to see what will happen with that bond we she returns.
nothing you have posted however, discredits the possibility."
I am confused. Is it your belief that Moiraine's bond was passed? And if so, why are you led to believe that there might be some portion of the bond remaining if Moiraine has lost the ability to channel but then recovers it? Are you suggesting that because the passing of the bond might have been forced by Moiraine getting stilled, that she will still feel some form of connection, even though that connection was passed? Just curious.
Ieyasu: 2006-06-06
Tamyrlin
"I am confused. Is it your belief that Moiraine's bond was passed? And if so, why are you led to believe that there might be some portion of the bond remaining if Moiraine has lost the ability to channel but then recovers it? Are you suggesting that because the passing of the bond might have been forced by Moiraine getting stilled, that she will still feel some form of connection, even though that connection was passed? Just curious."
If she passed it voluntairly/consciously then no, i dont think it will return at all.
I think that it IS possible some form of the bond might return, however, if she lost the ability to have the bond (severed/burned out) and then gets healed. (which would have to be after she returned)
i dont think she is going to step out of the tower of genji and POOF there's the bond.. but if she lost the ability to have the bond and THAT is what facilitated the transfer to myr then yes, i personally think it could return in some form.
Ieyasu: 2006-06-06
Sorry Tamyrlin, i hit submit too soon.
im not questioning that the bond was passed. we KNOW the bond passed. that is a fact. what is unknown is the manner in which the bond passed. did moiraine pass it willing? consciously? or was her ability to maintain the bond interupted? she told lan she had arranged for the bond to pass should anything happen to her, i have always taken this to mean that it was automatic. ie: she dies, bond goes to new sister, she doesnt actually transfer it, its already preprogrammed to do so in the event. i would furthermore think that if she lost the ability to maintain the bond then that would trigger the programming and transfer his bond. so it stands to reason that should she regain the ability to have the bond (healed from being severed) that it might come back...
but i do allow that the very act that the bond WAS indeed transfered could be more than enough to prevent it from returning.
this was just an idle thought i had as i read this theory, i wondered.. hrm what if moiraine was stilled in finnland? what if she gets healed? will her bond with lan WHICH WAS TRANSFERED (regardless of whether she transfered it consciously or merely lost the ability to maintain it) come back? and if so, will it come back in full? will it be a tribond with two AS and one man? will it be some sort of echo? and as i thought about it, it jsut intrigued me.
the preprogramming that moiraine did to pass the bond could have been tricked into a false posative if she were stilled. and so it passes to who moiraine designated, but on moiraines end, does anything remain of that bond? if she were healed of being stilled (this is assuming she WAS stilled) does some imprint of that bond still exist on moiraine?
**Are you suggesting that because the passing of the bond might have been forced by Moiraine getting stilled, that she will still feel some form of connection, even though that connection was passed?**
hrm... two posts and alot of words when a simple 'yes' would have sufficed
:)
i think it might.
wolfbrother10: 2006-06-06
Ieyashu:
I believe that Moiraine knew for some time when she would be MIA. She set up to pass her bond because she did not want Lan to kill himself by seeking vengeance and ultimately she wanted Lan to be with his love Nyn. Moiraine had the day of her dissappearance down to much detail including the time. The passing of the bond was definitely a planned thing and not a reaction of severing, stilling or death. Moiraine was extremely busy after getting her answers from the twisted doorframe ter'angreal.
Callandor: 2006-06-06
**no, actually we dont 'know' any such thing. we have seen a letter written before she 'died'. we have min's viewing. we have lots of things leading us to believe shes still alive. but we dont KNOW what has occured in the tower of genji. basically, we BELIEVE, but we dont KNOW.**
No, we know Moiraine is alive still. Whether she'll survive leaving the Tower of Ghenjei is the question. But there is absolutely no doubt that Moiraine is still alive, and still in the Tower of Ghenjei at this moment.
**yes, and the bonds were *gone* from sisters severed at dumanai's well, thier warders reacted the same as sisters who die. we also know that when the sister was healed, the severed bond WHICH WAS GONE, returned to the sisters, even though thier oaths did not. being as we have no idea as to moiraines condition, it would be silly to offhandly discard a possibility that has been shown to happen already.**
So, you're using a comparison to for if an Aes Sedai is dead, when we know the Aes Sedai in question is not dead.
Then you say:
**i think since it HAS been passed to myr, its not too likely to transfer back in full, but i do believe a vestige of the bond returning isnt all that far fetched. or maybe or something akin to the rand/girls-tribond .**
You're arguing that the bond will rebound -- requiring that Moiraine would have the Healed of stilling (which is quite different from being burned out). Now you believe that Moiraine did in fact pass the bond.
If Moiraine passed the bond, there's nothing left to be done. Moiraine has nothing, and Myrelle has the bond. Hence, the bond is no more.
**with cyndane being a weaked lanfear and the suspicion of her having been healed via nyn-woman weave, it is perfectly possible that moiraine too, has lost the ability to channel, whether or not this is a severing or a burning out is unknown.**
Cyndane was not Healed by a female channeler. None of the Forsaken that knew of the weave and had the skill were able to do it due to knowledge, Forsaken politics, and Cyndane's level drop isn't anywhere near Siuan and Leane's. As well, Lanfear would've been burned out, not stilled, leaving nothing left to be Healed.
**thats why i think it will be interesting to see what will happen with that bond we she returns.**
Which again raises another issue, since Moiraine technically has never disappeared. Nothing happened to the bond when Moiraine went through the Aelfinn doorway, and unless your supposing that the bond was destroyed by the doorway melting, there's only a continuation of the bond to answer for (bringing up quite the contradiction since Myrelle now has it, and Lan felt the effects of the passing).
If you believe, as you say, that the bond was passed to Myrelle, there's nothing left of the bond with Moiraine. It's gone. It's all with Myrelle.
: 2006-06-07
wolfbrother:
I too believe that Moiraine had some inklings of what was to come. What I don’t know about it whether or not she consciously passed the bond, or perhaps she lost the ability to HAVE the bond thus enacting the preprogrammed passing Myrelle.
*The passing of the bond was definitely a planned thing and not a reaction of severing, stilling or death.*
Are you saying Moiraine consciously, intentionally passed the bond? Do you have any quotes to back that up? I’d like to see them.
Callandor:
*No, we know Moiraine is alive still. Whether she'll survive leaving the Tower of Ghenjei is the question. But there is absolutely no doubt that Moiraine is still alive, and still in the Tower of Ghenjei at this moment.*
Can you please provide a quote from the book that PROVES Moiraine is still alive? So far all I have seen is a few clues from BEFORE she died, such as letters and what not. I have yet to see any PROOF that she is alive. It is NOT something that is KNOWN. It is something that is BELIEVED, and SUSPECTED, but I haven’t seen any POV from her since she disappeared. Have you? You claim there is no doubt that she is still alive, can you provide any quotes to substanciate that?
As I said previously, I personally agree with you in holding the opinion that she is alive. But it is in no way, shape or form a FACT until we get to the tower get inside and SEE her there. Its just a belief. Unless of course, you have some sort of quote that can show her doing something SINCE she died? I hope you wont just quote her letter to Thom as proof, especially being as we ALL saw her give it to Rand PRIOR to her disappearance.
As I said, I believe she is alive, I'm sure you believe it as well, and however sure we are, it is still a matter of FAITH, and not FACT. But still, perhaps you have a quote I'm not taking into account that makes this matter a ‘no doubt’ issue as you said, please provide it.
**So, you're using a comparison to for if an Aes Sedai is dead, when we know the Aes Sedai in question is not dead.**
I am? News to me. I'm speaking of the sisters rand stilled, and more particularly, the ones that had warders (which the bonds were broken at the time of stilling, causing the several of the warders to act exactly as death-breaking) the same ones that flinn then healed.
I didn’t say anything at all about comparing dead AS. I said their warders react the same when the bond is broken via stilling as they do when its broken via death.
You previously attempted to say it couldn’t happen because the bond was BROKEN, and GONE:
**Whether the bond was released, severed due to stilling, severed due to the collapse of the doorway, or something else does not matter in the least -- the bond is no more; the bond is gone completely.**
I merely showed you another instance in which the bond was GONE (and the sisters happened to be alive still) and then that same bond which was GONE was returned by the act of healing the condition that removed it…
**You're arguing that the bond will rebound -- requiring that Moiraine would have the Healed of stilling (which is quite different from being burned out). Now you believe that Moiraine did in fact pass the bond.**
No. that is not what I believe at all callandor. How about if I speak for myself, rather than the words you put in my mouth? Or do you think you are qualified to think/speak for me?
What I said was that the very act that the bond passed could very well crush this entire idea I had. I think the simple fact that the bond has transferred, been passed to Myrelle, that this could very well just be a useless and idle thought.
Basically I'm allowing for the possibility that I could be wrong.
**If Moiraine passed the bond, there's nothing left to be done. Moiraine has nothing, and Myrelle has the bond. Hence, the bond is no more.**
Yes Callandor. I have said several times I agree that if Moiraine willingly, intentionally, consciously passed the bond then there is no way it would return. Ive said that several times.
Can you please quote the book and show me where she intentionally, knowingly, or consciously passed to bond?
I don’t think she did. I don’t think she passed the bond consciously. I think she lost the ability to maintain the bond and it automatically passed do to her preprogramming from waaaaaay back in TGH (chapter 22 pg 271). My entire idea is based around her NOT passing the bond intentionally. My entire idea rests on the possibility that the passing wasn’t an intentional or conscious act.
**Cyndane was not Healed by a female channeler. None of the Forsaken that knew of the weave and had the skill were able to do it due to knowledge, Forsaken politics, and Cyndane's level drop isn't anywhere near Siuan and Leane's. As well, Lanfear would've been burned out, not stilled, leaving nothing left to be Healed. **
You say her drop isn’t anywhere near Siuan and Leane’s, so what? They didn’t have her level of power to begin with, so it stands to reason that she wouldn’t be reduced to their level. She started out stronger (much stronger) than both of them (combined most likely) why would she be anything at all near their level?
The black ajah may know the weave, or are you saying that when nyn healed them she didn’t share the weave with the sisters in Salidar? Are you saying NONE of them are black? Do you really think this is a rational line of reasoning?
You claim she would have been burned out, not stilled… can you substantiate that claim with quotes? I think both her and Moiraine were stilled (rather than burned out). Or is her burning out merely an opinion you have?
**Which again raises another issue, since Moiraine technically has never disappeared. Nothing happened to the bond when Moiraine went through the Aelfinn doorway, and unless your supposing that the bond was destroyed by the doorway melting, there's only a continuation of the bond to answer for (bringing up quite the contradiction since Myrelle now has it, and Lan felt the effects of the passing).**
Ive stated very clearly that I think Moiraine AND Lanfear were BOTH stilled on the other side. Which does not contradict Lan feeling the effects of the broken bond NOR Myrelle’s stewardship of Lan’s bond.
**If you believe, as you say, that the bond was passed to Myrelle, there's nothing left of the bond with Moiraine. It's gone. It's all with Myrelle.**
No necessarily. If Moiraine was stilled as I believe, there may very well still be an imprint of the bond within her. The preprogramming she did in TGH would be triggered by her ability to channel being severed, thus fulfilling the condition that facilitates the automatic passing to Myrelle. That doesn’t mean that the imprints on Moiraine are nonexistent though. Or do you think that because her preprogrammed and automated transfer somehow would delete her own bond imprint on herself?
Callandor: 2006-06-07
**Can you please provide a quote from the book that PROVES Moiraine is still alive? So far all I have seen is a few clues from BEFORE she died, such as letters and what not. I have yet to see any PROOF that she is alive. It is NOT something that is KNOWN.**
The fact that Moiraine's letter is in Mat and Thom's presence is more than enough, and the fact that she said there is no danger until they come to get her. She herself said that in some of what she seen, all three of them die, showing that she would have to be alive now for that to occur.
We know Moiraine is alive now. We don't know if she will survive the Tower of Ghenjei (but it seems almost impossible to even doubt that she will).
**It is something that is BELIEVED, and SUSPECTED, but I haven’t seen any POV from her since she disappeared. Have you? You claim there is no doubt that she is still alive, can you provide any quotes to substanciate that?**
Since when is it required that we need a POV to know for sure that a person is alive? It sure does help, but it's not required. We haven't seen Pevara's POV since Crossroads, yet we know she's still alive.
**As I said previously, I personally agree with you in holding the opinion that she is alive. But it is in no way, shape or form a FACT until we get to the tower get inside and SEE her there.**
No, again, you're saying we can only believe in what we see directly or have a point of view of. We don't need that. We have facts from other information that makes it certain that Moiraine is still alive at this moment.
**I hope you wont just quote her letter to Thom as proof, especially being as we ALL saw her give it to Rand PRIOR to her disappearance.**
And what difference would it make, since it's still being shown to be 100% correct, now?
Min made lots of Viewings of Rand in The Eye of the World. Would you discount those as proof that Rand would fulfill those viewings now, because they were in earlier books?
**As I said, I believe she is alive, I'm sure you believe it as well, and however sure we are, it is still a matter of FAITH, and not FACT.**
Again, no, it's not. We know Moiraine is alive.
**I merely showed you another instance in which the bond was GONE (and the sisters happened to be alive still) and then that same bond which was GONE was returned by the act of healing the condition that removed it…**
And if you notice you've already said to your effects that you agree Moiraine released the bond -- making this entire point useless. You agree that the bond is gone, bye bye, no more, and all with Myrelle.
**I don’t think she did. I don’t think she passed the bond consciously. I think she lost the ability to maintain the bond and it automatically passed do to her preprogramming from waaaaaay back in TGH (chapter 22 pg 271). My entire idea is based around her NOT passing the bond intentionally. My entire idea rests on the possibility that the passing wasn’t an intentional or conscious act.**
Either Moiraine passed the bond, or she was stilled, or burnt out.
**You say her drop isn’t anywhere near Siuan and Leane’s, so what? They didn’t have her level of power to begin with, so it stands to reason that she wouldn’t be reduced to their level.**
What a lovely strawman, since that is not what I am saying.
If you put everyone on a 21 grade scale (or whatever scale you want), the drop from pre-stilling Siuan to Siuan presently, and pre-stilling Leane to Leane now, is no where near the amount of the drop from Lanfear to Cyndane. Say average Aes Sedai is a 10, Siuan would be roughly a 13, Egwene, Elayne, and Aviendha would be 14-15, and so on. Siuan pre-stilling is now a 8 or 9.
Lanfear in comparison would be a 21, and drop to maybe a 19 at best, and more than likely a 20, since she is still stronger than Graendal as Cyndane. The drops are anywhere near comparative.
**You claim she would have been burned out, not stilled… can you substantiate that claim with quotes? I think both her and Moiraine were stilled (rather than burned out). Or is her burning out merely an opinion you have?**
When you have an angreal taken away from you, and you're channeling much more than you can handle unaided (aside from going through a ter'angreal that melts), you'll be burnt out not stilled. Stilling is deliberate, a cut, a punishment. Burning out is an accident, and a complete destruction of ones connection to the One Power.
But if you want quotes for simply toying around with a ter'angreal (let alone being in one when it's destroyed), enjoy:
**TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 23 - The Testing
"Once, Aes Sedai were not required to swear oaths. It was known what Aes Sedai were and what they stood for, and there was no need for more. Many of us wish it were so still. But the Wheel turns, and the times change. That we swear these oaths, that we are known to be bound, allows the nations to deal with us without fearing that we will throw up our own power, the One Power, against them. Between the Trolloc Wars and the War of the Hundred Years we made these choices, and because of them the White Tower still stands, and we can still do what we can against the Shadow." Sheriam drew a deep breath. "Light, child, I am trying to teach you what any other woman standing where you are would have learned over the course of years. It cannot be done. Ter'angreal are what must concern you, now. We don't know why they were made. We dare use only a handful of them, and the ways in which we do dare to use them may be nothing like the purposes the makers intended. Most, we have learned to our cost to avoid. Over the years, no few Aes Sedai have been killed or had their Talent burned out of them, learning that."
...
"It isn't thought necessary to give a warning, since you shouldn't be able to remember it, but . . . . This ter'angreal was found during the Trolloc Wars. We have the records of its examination in the archives. The first sister to enter was warded as strongly as she could be, since no one knew what it would do. She kept her memories, and she channeled the One Power when she was threatened. And she came out with her abilities burned to nothing, unable to channel, unable even to sense the True Source. The second to go in was also warded, and she, too, was destroyed in the same way. The third went unprotected, remembered nothing once she was inside, and returned unharmed. That is one reason why we send you completely unprotected. Nynaeve, you must not channel inside the ter'angreal again. I know it is hard to remember anything, but try."**
**TITLE: Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 13 - Punishments
Sa'angreal were like angreal, allowing an Aes Sedai to channel more of the Power than she safely could unaided, but far more powerful than angreal, and rare. Ter'angreal were something different. Existing in greater numbers than either angreal or sa'angreal, though still not common, they used the One Power rather than helping to channel it, and no one truly understood them. Many would work only for someone who could channel, needing the actual channeling of the Power, while others did what they did for anyone. Where all the angreal and sa'angreal Egwene had ever heard of were small, ter'angreal could seemingly be any size. Each had apparently been made for a specific purpose by those Aes Sedai of three thousand years ago, to do a certain thing, and Aes Sedai since had died trying to learn what; died, or had the ability to channel burned out of them. There were sisters of the Brown Ajah who had made ter'angreal their life's study.**
**TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 6 - Doorways
They were strange things, ter'angreal, fragments of the Age of Legends like angreal and sa'angreal, if more numerous. Ter'angreal used the One Power instead of magnifying it. Each had apparently been made to do one thing and one thing alone, but though some were used now, no one was sure if those uses were anything like what they had been made for. The Oath Rod, on which a woman took the Three Oaths on being raised Aes Sedai, was a ter'angreal that made those oaths a part of her flesh and bone. The last test a novice took on being raised to Accepted was inside another ter'angreal that ferreted out her most heartfelt fears and made them seem real-or perhaps took her to a place where they were real. Odd things could happen with ter'angreal. Aes Sedai had been burned out or killed, or had simply vanished, in studying them. And in using them.**
**No necessarily. If Moiraine was stilled as I believe, there may very well still be an imprint of the bond within her. The preprogramming she did in TGH would be triggered by her ability to channel being severed, thus fulfilling the condition that facilitates the automatic passing to Myrelle. That doesn’t mean that the imprints on Moiraine are nonexistent though. Or do you think that because her preprogrammed and automated transfer somehow would delete her own bond imprint on herself?**
It's called passing. When you pass something, you don't retain a part of it. The bond is gone. Myrelle has it. End of story.
wolfbrother10: 2006-06-08
Anonymous-
*Are you saying Moiraine consciously, intentionally passed the bond? Do you have any quotes to back that up? I’d like to see them.*
Yes, Moiraine intentionally/conciously passed her bond of Lan to Myrelle.
A Crown of Swords, Ch 12: A Morning of Victory pg 287 (softcover)
"Not just because Moiraine asked, not just because she was my friend. I hate letting them die. I hate it!"
Myrelle confessed to Egwene and Siuan that she did it (received Lan's bond) because Moiraine asked her to. This was definitely premeditated.
Latter on we read that the reason why the bond was passed to Myrelle and not directly to Nynaeve was because 1)Nynaeve was still not going to be an Aes Sedai by the time that Moiraine would lose the bond and 2)Myrelle had two warders that belonged to other sisters and was able to bring them out of the suicidal state after the death of their sister.
A Crown of Swords, Ch 12: A Morning of Victory pg 294 (softcover)
"I did not do it for myself, Mother. You must believe that. It was to save him. As soon as he is safe, I will pass him on to Nynaeve, the way Moiraine wanted just as soon as she's--"
This is where Myrelle tells Egwene, and us, that Moiraine created an arrangement for the passing of Lan's bond since she would not be able to since she was leaving on hiatus for a while. :) The missing words at the end of the quote are obviously "as soon as she's (raise to sister)" letting us know that that is the condition for passing the bond.
I think this shows that Moiraine definitely knew what was going to happen on the day that she met Lanfear and she did for a while because she was able to do all this while helping our ta'varen and lady channelers in their quests.
Ieyasu: 2006-06-10
Callandor:
**Again, no, it's not. We know Moiraine is alive.**
It’s a safe bet, but I won’t call it a fact until it is indeed a fact. I believe she is alive. I don’t know it for sure yet. I'm not willing to argue with you further on word choice. You like to call it a fact, I prefer till it meets the actual definition of the word. But other than word choice, I would say it’s safe to say we both at least believe she is alive.
**And if you notice you've already said to your effects that you agree Moiraine released the bond -- making this entire point useless. You agree that the bond is gone, bye bye, no more, and all with Myrelle.**
I most certainly DO NOT agree that Moiraine released the bond. I merely agree that the bond transferred. My idea has to do with HOW that bond was transferred. I don’t think she INTENIONALLY passed the bond. I don’t think she released it, I believe she lost the ability to maintain it. There is a difference.
I’ve stated several times that my entire idea is based around her not releasing the bond intentionally. That is what doesn’t make the entire point useless. I agree the bond (which she set up to pass in TGH, but it didn’t pass until the door was melted) was preprogrammed to pass and that it is most likely she could have intentionally passed it at any given point in time, HOWEVER, I *DO NOT* believe she intentionally passed the bond. As I have stated several times Callandor. It’s MY opinion that she lost the ability to sustain the bond and that triggers the preprogrammed condition to pass the bond. I think since she didn’t intentionally pass the bond that it is possible that her connection to that bond wasn’t completely destroyed because it is imprinted on her connection to the source, and that when she gets healed (assuming that her connection to the source is healable), then her imprint will heal as well. I think that since the condition to pass the bond occurred, that it will only be a one way deal between Moiraine/Lan. I think she will retain awareness of him, but because the aspect of the bond that was on his end has been transferred, I doubt it is likely it will reappear on his end.
As for the drop in Cyn’s power, I asked you to provide quotes stating SHE had been burned out. I won’t argue with you that women can be burned out when playing with ter’angreal and the like, I agree, untrained use and perhaps the breaking of contact with that angreal CAN cause one to be burn out, however there are quotes that show via Rand’s POV that physical contact to the angreal isn’t necessary to use it, so it could be argued that her losing contact with the angreal wasn’t sufficient to break he contact through it,. I don’t think there is sufficient evidence to state this is what occurred with Lanfear, and that this
But as to your list of quotes, I agree, using objects of the power can be dangerous to ones health.
**It's called passing. When you pass something, you don't retain a part of it. The bond is gone. Myrelle has it. End of story**
I don’t believe she passed the bond. There is a difference between passing the bond, and the bond getting passed.
Nothing you have said convinces me otherwise. I think it’s an interesting possibility and I look forward to RAFO!
End of story.
Wolfbrother10:
**Yes, Moiraine intentionally/consciously passed her bond of Lan to Myrelle**
That is where you and I disagree. I don’t think she consciously passed the bond. I believe the bond passed because it was preprogrammed to pass in the event that she couldn’t maintain it (death ((I believe stilling causes the same effects on the warder as death))). I believe both she and Lanfear were stilled in the act that took them to the ToG, upon arrival, or as a result of events that occurred on the other side of the melted doorway. Furthermore, I think since she didn’t intentionally pass the bond, that it transferred as she lost the ability to channel and thus maintain the bond. I think because she didn’t consciously pass the bond, I think the weaves imprint is still on her severed side of the connection to the source. I think to reconnect her (healed by ashaman weave) then her unpassed portion of the bond will reconnect. I doubt that Lan will notice or feel Moiraine, being as his side of the bond was transferred due to Moiraine’s preprogramming done in TGH.
**Myrelle confessed to Egwene and Siuan that she did it (received Lan's bond) because Moiraine asked her to. This was definitely premeditated.**
Yes. But this was set up to occur back in TGH. Had she died any other time, it would have transferred. She didn’t transfer it in TGH, she set up a conditional programming. She warns him because she doesn’t him to be surprised.
***TGH Chapter 22 Watchers, pg 271
“Before we left Tar Valon I made arrangements, should anything happen to me, for your bond to pass to another.†He stared at her silent. “When you feel my death, you will find yourself compelled to seek her out immediately. I do not want you to be surprised by it.â€***
This programming was already completed by this conversation. It is done. She doesn’t have to pass it consciously, she has set it up to automatically pass in the event of her death. Since the warders acted as if their sisters had died at the wells, I believe that when she and Lanfear were stilled, the condition she set up enacted and passed what was left. Since he feels the effects of breaking the bond, I feel it is safe to say she didn’t intentionally pass it. If she did consciously pass it, he would only feel Myrelle, and NOT the broken bond death effect. Since he feels the death effects as well and the compulsion to seek her out, this indicates that it was the conditional preprogramming that she set up, rather than an intentional passing.
**I think this shows that Moiraine definitely knew what was going to happen on the day that she met Lanfear and she did for a while because she was able to do all this while helping our ta'varen and lady channelers in their quests.**
I don’t believe she knew the possibility about Lanfear and the docks at the time she set up the preprogrammed passing in the event of her death.
I believe the knowledge about Lanfear didn’t come until after she went though the doorway in Tear, and the rings in Rheudian.
I think she set this up long before she knew about her date with Lanfear.
***THG Chapter 22 Watchers, page 271
“And do you foresee your death coming soon?†his voice was quiet, his face expressionless, both like stone in a dead winter blizzard. It was a manner she had seen in him many times, usually when he was on the point of violence. “Have you planned something, without me, that will see you dead?â€
“I am suddenly glad there is no pond in this room,†she murmured then raised her hands when he stiffened, offended at her light tone. “I see my death in every day, as you do. How could I not, with the task we have followed these years? Now, with everything coming to a head, I must see it as even more possible.â€***
But yes, I agree with you that she knew about the docks and Lanfear. She didn’t have any knowledge after that point though, as she said.
I believe she didn’t find out about these events until after she had already set the bond to pass. She set that up because she didn’t want Lan to throw his life away uselessly.
***TGH Chater 22 Watchers, page 272
“It is done, and I will not undo it.â€
“The Light blind me, if I am to be passed from hand to hand, do you at least have some idea in whose hand I will end?â€
“What I do is for your own good, and perhaps be for another’s, as well. It may be that Myrelle will find a slip of a girl just raised to sisterhood--was that not what you said?—who needs a Warder hardened in battle and wise in the ways of the world, a slip of a girl who may need someone who will throw her into a pond. You have much to offer, Lan, and to see it wasted in an unmarked grave, or left to the ravens, when it could go to a woman who needs it would be worse than the win of which the Whitecloaks prate. Yes, I think she will have need of you.â€
I think because he feels the death effects of the breaking of the bond, and because of the fact that she set this up as a ‘just in case’ or ‘in the event of’ that the bond was passed because of the programming. I think if Moiraine had intentionally passed the bond, Lan would not feel the death effects, he would just feel the compulsion to seek out Myrelle, and not have ‘take death inside’. I can agree that Moiraine had prior knowledge about the docks, but I don’t think she knew about it in TGH. I think she set this condition up because of Nyn, and as she said, not wanting him in unmarked grave or worse. I think she recognized the possibility that Lan could outlive her, and programmed the bond to pass so that he wouldn’t be wasted. I think because she lost the ability to maintain the bond, it passed as per the programming, but since it wasn’t a conscious act, her portion of the bond is still imprinted within her.
Anyway, I look forward to AMOL to see what HAS happened with Moiraine.
Callandor: 2006-07-03
**It’s a safe bet, but I won’t call it a fact until it is indeed a fact. I believe she is alive. I don’t know it for sure yet. I'm not willing to argue with you further on word choice. You like to call it a fact, I prefer till it meets the actual definition of the word. But other than word choice, I would say it’s safe to say we both at least believe she is alive.**
Ah, yes, here it is. Once again, it's a fact that Moiraine is alive still:
**TITLE: Knife of Dreams, CHAPTER: 20 - The Golden Crane
"Because it has to be different," she told him fiercely. She leaned toward him as though ready to launch herself at him. "Because I want it to be different. Because it will be different. Anyway, I don't know about everything I've seen. People move on. I was wrong about Moiraine. I saw all sorts of things in her future, and she's dead. Maybe some of the other things I saw never came true either."**
Of course, we have the added knowledge of knowing Min's viewings are never wrong.
Aeolus: 2006-07-03
Callandor:
**"Because it has to be different," she told him fiercely. She leaned toward him as though ready to launch herself at him. "Because I want it to be different. Because it will be different. Anyway, I don't know about everything I've seen. People move on. I was wrong about Moiraine. I saw all sorts of things in her future, and she's dead. Maybe some of the other things I saw never came true either."**
Whilst I utterly agree that Moiraine is alive and thus agree with you I'm going to - for fun - play devil's advocate and posit that you are nontheless incorrect to state this as evidence that her being alive is "fact." It is not, as the things Min has viewed could well have been things that happened to Moiraine in finn-land. Min's viewings could -feasibly, just!!! - have come true and she could still be dead. I'm being provocatively cheeky, of course, but you nevertheless have to be careful of what you state as "fact" on here...
Ieyasu: 2006-07-03
Callandor:
Technically, Rand has the same knowledge as to tine infalibility of Min's viewings.
I think Min CAN be wrong, if Mat could have 'side step his fate' then there is an element of freewill which can make Min's viewings wrong as well.
I dont think she IS wrong though. I think Moiraine is alive. But it is not known to be a fact just yet.
Callandor: 2006-07-03
**Whilst I utterly agree that Moiraine is alive and thus agree with you I'm going to - for fun - play devil's advocate and posit that you are nontheless incorrect to state this as evidence that her being alive is "fact." It is not, as the things Min has viewed could well have been things that happened to Moiraine in finn-land. Min's viewings could -feasibly, just!!! - have come true and she could still be dead.**
Not if you put this together with what we've already seen from Moiraine. Most notably, her information right away in The Eye of the World that Thom was not killed by the Fade. As well, her insistance that she will see Thom again, and that he will survive Tarabon. Add in the final suspect part that the first thing Min uses as an example to Rand of what she's seen is that if she sees two people she's never met before, she'll know they'll marry.
Min having a viewing that Moiraine will marry Thom, fits all of these (as well as explains some more things about her letter).
Callandor: 2006-07-03
**I think Min CAN be wrong, if Mat could have 'side step his fate' then there is an element of freewill which can make Min's viewings wrong as well.**
Min's viewings are never wrong:
**Q: All of Min's viewing have come true except one.. does this mean she is no longer infallible?
A: No, it doesn't. And actually, that's not quite true, that all of her viewings have come true but one.**
**Q: Are Mins visions absolute foretellings or probabilities?
A: Her visions are absolute foretellings. The problem is, she doesn't always know what it means. The only changes from that are two visions she's had which indicated the possibility of the future forking, an "either/or." And that's the only time she's ever had anything like that.**
And you'd have to prove that Mat could sidestep his fate, when he did nothing of the sort. We have no reason to believe Mat could do anything but what he did: go to Rhuidean.
wolfbrother10: 2006-07-04
I agree with Callondor that it is a fact that Moiraine is still alive. If she were dead then in her letter she would not have described the team that should come to rescue her because there was nothing to rescue. Moiraine's foreknowledge must contain something outside of Finnland.
In regard to Min's viewings, to me they show the things that are definitely going to happen. Things that can be changed through decisions in life are not going to be in her viewings. An example of this is Logain's glory; if it was up to him he would have killed himself, but now look at the important character he has become. :)
Ieyasu: 2006-07-05
Min has never been wrong, nor do i think she ever will be wrong. (perhaps misinterpret, yet, not the viewing will come to pass)
and your right, nothing has been suggested that mat could have side stepped his fate. (other than tricksy finns saying if he didnt go, etc, but this doesnt suggest that he CAN side step, merely that if he DIDNT go, he would have side stepped.)
im not sure why i even bothered to say min could be wrong, hehe was a random thought late at night.
as for moiraine, its a strong belief, with many supporting clues, but no actual proof, it isnt a fact yet. (soon to be a fact, well, knowing RJ's lag between books and current illness, perhaps not so soon)
i cant wait to see her back!