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he Tower of Ghenjei

by Unoshato: 2000-11-14 | Not yet rated

Previous Categories: Miscellaneous Theories

I believe that because Min said to herself in PoD that she could not tell Rand he could not win the last battle without Moiraine that she is not dead and will come back, I believe that lanfear died in there cause in WH she says the A/Eelfinn held her..the main characters, Rand-Matt-Perin are gonna get together and talk about Moiraine and discover they know more about the Tower of Ghenjei than they think, Min also saw Thom pulling the gem Moiraine wears out of fire, Fire to blind!!!, Thom is gonna understand how it all its together and they are gonna go in with him and rescue Moiraine!!!

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Comments

Tamyrlin: 2000-11-14

Lanfear's power went down, I wonder if Moiraine asked to have their power switched before Lanfear died. Moiraine being the most powerful female would be cool.

pointyman: 2002-11-08

But remember from Graendal's POV that Cyndane is still strong, far stronger than Moiraine used to be. But not as strong as Lanfear was.

Callandor: 2002-12-11

I see 2 things happening both going off by the same scenario. One, Mat and Thom go to the Tower of Ghenjei to rescue Moirane and Mat uses the **firesticks** that the Illuminator has. Two, Thom is a magican and musican. Couldnt he hide his harp or flute or something better then ANY being could find? A little hard to believe but you never know. Anyway 2 ways same solution they or just one of them, if one its a guarentee that its Thom, but they will use Fire to Blind or Music to Daze.

silverwolf: 2002-12-28

I agree with the Tower of Ghenjei being the key to Moiraine's return. I think that Thom will be the one to bring her back, based on Min's viewings. Before anyone argues that Thom can't enter TAR, there are several possibilites. First, Rand or Egwene could take him there physically; not very likely, but possible. Secondly, Thom could use the stone ring Egwene got in TDR; even less likely, but still possible. Last, he could simply go to the Tower of Ghenjei in the real world! We even know where it is--about 10 days from whitebridge along the Arinelle. In TEotW, Rand and Mat see something metal in the distance from Bayle Domon's ship. Domon tells them that it is a shining metal tower, very large and without a mark on it. This matches the general location and description given by Perrin in TSR. (I'd love to give you page and chapter numbers, but I don't have the books with me.)

Jack o Shadows: 2003-05-04

This is like, right out of the blue but, maybe they got merged? Intertwinded so to speak and in order ot bring Lanfear back he had to brink Moirane back. Put them in the same body, merged their monds, hatever. Their power is somewhere inbetween 'cos Lanfear's power ws diluted by Moiranes?

Callandor: 2003-05-04

If Lanfear and Moiraine got merged, the only thing that comes close to that is Slayer. With Slayer Luc is in control sometimes and Isam is in control other times, and they both know they exist.

With Cyndane we have no reference what so ever of Moiraine. There is just Lanfear and her hate, rage, and wanting to kill of Rand.

So Lanfear and Moiraine didnt merge.

Mathwin: 2003-05-05

No support for this, but...

The Finn like balance. A lot. You have trades and stuff going down like nobody's business. So rather than merging, Lanfear and Cyndane's power might have equalized.

If you put people in levels for power, the three top levels are Forsaken-level, Elayne-level, and Elaida-level. Moiraine belongs to the lowest of these, Lanfear to the highest. That we know of, Lanfear was the most powerful female channeler ever, except for Alivia more recently, I suppose. And Moiraine, though nowhere near as powerful, was no toy within her level--she was pretty handy with the balefire, I'd say. So if you even that out, you come up with someone about as powerful as Egwene or Aviendha. Not the top-level, but not to be trifled with. About where I see Cyndane.

Korell: 2003-05-05

Pointyman....just a thought here Moiraine was a very strong channler in this time period before all the new discoveries if you do not remember how would grendal be able to compare Lanfear to Moiraine most likly they have never met thefore the theory that they switched powers is not compleatly impossible and personaly even though Lanfear has a hella lot of knowledge i thnik that by far Moiraine is much more Cunning then people give her credit for and she could definatly use a wish to swap powers i like the idea of balance though that the Finn gave Moiraine and Lanfear equal power that would bring down Lanfears power some and increase Moiraines power some anyway thats about it....oh yeah and Thom will save Moiraine somhow

rubbernilly: 2003-05-06

First of all, it was Egwene who saw Thom pulling Moiraine's jewel from a fire (she saw it in a dream).

Second, I wonder if the wish-Finn have the same aversion to the shadow as the answer-Finn (remember, the answer-Finn would harshly punish - even kill - for questions that touched on the shadow). If so, then Lanfear would have been in serious trouble for being OF the shadow.

Third, what if, however, Lanfear - or whatever her name was before she went over to the Shadow - went through the twisted doorway to the wish-Finn and requested to be able to channel as strongly as a woman was capable of. This not only holds with her personality - a lust for power - but also fits in with why she might have tapped into the bore: if she knew that she was the strongest that a woman could ever be, but it was still not enough (maybe because there were men that were more powerful, or maybe simply because the Creator himself was still more powerful) she would have had ample reason to seek out another power.

As well, this idea is supported by how she hid her ability. Moiraine recounts at one point that Lanfear was next only to Ishamael in sheer power, though she kept her ability hidden. She would have definite reason to hide her ability if she had gone to the wish-Finn and had that ability ramped up to its maximum.

If this is the case, then Cyndane's current ability - while stronger than Graendal, still reduced from Lanfear's maximum - was Lanfear's true ability, before she went through the doorway to the wish-Finn the first time to have it ramped up. I know this is idle speculation, but we have no indication that Osangar, Arangar, or Moridin's power was reduced in their resurrection, or somehow limited by the channeling ability of the body that they were given. Instead, their ability remained the same. In Lanfear's case, her ability returned to her natural potential after death.

Fourth, we don't have evidence that Alivia is strong than Lanfear was. We know she is stronger than Nynaeve, but when Alivia faces Cyndane, Cyndane realizes that Alivia stronger than Cyndane used to be before the Finn held her. However, this leads her to the correct deduction that Alivia must have been using an angreal. Since Alivia *was* using and angreal, we know she was registering stronger than she should have normally. Further, Cyndane's reaction to Alivia's strength - the disbelief of feeling something so impossible as someone who was stronger than she herself had been - lends some weight to the notion that Lanfear was not only *the* strongest female channeler, but also as strong as a woman could be.

So where does this leave Moiraine? I believe that she is still held by the Finn. Her whole life was a fight against the shadow, which may simultaneously condemn her and save her. Condemn her for having to do with the shadow, but save her because she fights it. If she asks for wishes that would help her fight the Shadow, they might give them to her, but the cost would be her imprisonment for however long. Of course, she'll be rescued and cut that time short... the question is, what will she have wished for?

Anyone get notions of Gandalf the Grey returning as Gandalf the White?

solomonrex: 2003-05-06

rubbernilly: 2003-05-06

Well, rubbernilly, I saw this theory on another site (not near as good as this one, if you ask me) and the problem with the "Lanfear's current ability was a pre-wish ability before she visited the 'finn in TAR' theory is that she would have to have gone through the doorway.

First, thank you for the compliment. But I need to point out that your representation of this theory ends with Lanfear having visited the wish-Finn in TAR. I don't think she needed to visit them from there. I think that before she went over to the shadow she could have gone through the doorway, as you say. That being said, I don't see the difficulty that you are trying to point out. If this doorway is limited to one use per customer, as the doorway in Tear was, then we might guess that the reason that she was able to 'use' it again was actually because that was Moiraine's first use, and she was pulling the Forsaken in behind her.

I can accept she went through the tower directly- in which case she was probably cheating to get her wishes granted the way she wanted them.

OK, but I don't know why you are bringing up having to visit the tower directly... anymore than why you brought up her having to visit the Finn in TAR. Maybe I haven't thought this through thoroughly enough, but this is not the form of my argument. I say that Lanfear could have used the doorway to the wish-Finn in the real world, and simply asked to have her power maxed out.

That would explain why she was held by the 'finn- but I can't accept the Shadow would rescue her, so to get out of 'finnland on her own, she had to have wishes granted.

And I am saying that she was held by the Finn (as revealed in Cyndane's POV in "With the Choeden Kal") because she was of the shadow. If they had the same aversion as the answer-Finn, just her presence would have been cause for punishment. And I never wanted to give the impression that I thought that the Shadow had somehow rescued her. I think she died at the hands of the wish-Finn, and that because of that death, her original wish of having her power maxed out was lost. When she returned to within the grasp of the DO, he resurrected her, giving her a new body. What he could not duplicate, however, was the added channeling ability that the Finn had given her long ago.

It also explains her new body- but then not how she was weak enough to be mindtrapped.

I don't see how you can allow the first but deny the second. Perhaps my time line below will make more sense of how I theorize events could have taken place.

To my mind, it's too likely she was granted wishes and then killed or incapacitated as a result- so that the DO transmigrates the body and mindtraps her.

I think we're saying the same thing, I think we've just got a different order. Here is what I was saying:

1) Mierin Eronaile and Lews Therin are lovers.

2) He breaks it off after realizing that Mierin is only after power.

3) Mierin, seeking a new route to power, goes through the ter'angreal doorway to the wish-Finn, where she requests that her channeling ability be as strong as a woman can be (unconfirmed reports name her other wishes as a Big Mac and a Pony).

4) They extract whatever payment was agreed upon, or perhaps in the AoL the AS just new better how to handle the Finn.

5) She returns and, knowing that women will be able to immediately tell that her power has been ramped up, immediately begins concealing her ability to channel 24/10.

6) Soon she realizes that she is still not as powerful as Lews Therin, or as the man who would become Ishamael; this is clearly not good for our power-loving-Mierin.

7) Her research into the Collam Daan reveals another power source, able to be tapped by men and women alike, and she sees her opportunity to become even more powerful.

8) Soon thereafter, she pledges to the DO, and names herself Lanfear.

9) Years later, after being freed, she is standing on the docks of Cairhien in a rage after finding that Rand (LTT) has slept with Avi.

10) Moiraine tackles her into the doorway, which melts

11) Being now shadow-souled, the Finn immediately kill Lanfear; as for Moiraine, she has fought the shadow, so she is only held.

12) The DO reaches across the pattern and catches Lanfear, resurrecting her in a different body, and she is given the name of Cyndane.

13) Because she has died, she is returned to her own potential, her power returns to that of Mierin, pre-visit-to-the-wish-Finn.

14) Cyndane has great power (enough to overmatch Graendal), but not as much as she did after visiting the Finn the first time; in fact, it exactly equals the maximum potential of Mierin.

Anyway, that's the theory I was presenting. (Of course, Mierin tapping into the CD and her visit to the Finn could have come about in reverse order, but that does not impact the central points of the theory.)

Arbryan: 2004-03-05

Might be slightly off topic, but it does go along with the recent commentary...

I believe that Mierin/Lanfear did go to visit the 'finn and wish for power, to be the most powerfull, or to be able to draw as much Saidar as possible, whatever. But, I believe the PRICE for that was the loss of Lews Therin.

I further believe that there is a lost or unknown way to get from the Aelfinn to the Eelfinn while in Finnland (I'm working on that theory and hope to post it soon). Now, she goes through the door and realizes that she is facing the same people that tricked her into losing Lews Therin. She's already in a rage and would likely attack without much thought (could also be that she broke the rules in bringing something with her, but that's pure speculation without having a quote).

Zenya Sedai: 2005-01-25

I do agree that somehow Moraine will came back and The Tower of Ghenjei is the Key.

We do know that Perrin has chased Slayer/Isam/Luc to the Tower of Ghenjei. So somehow Slayer has knowlege of the Finns and how to get in and out of the Tower of Ghenjei. I believe that Slayer was sent by the DO to bring Lanfear/Cyndane back.

Flinnd: 2005-01-26

In the "Lanfear's Life Timeline", Rubbernilly wrote something that got me thinking:

"3) Mierin, seeking a new route to power, goes through the ter'angreal doorway to the wish-Finn, where she requests that her channeling ability be as strong as a woman can be (unconfirmed reports name her other wishes as a Big Mac and a Pony).

4) They extract whatever payment was agreed upon, or perhaps in the AoL the AS just new better how to handle the Finn.

5) She returns and, knowing that women will be able to immediately tell that her power has been ramped up, immediately begins concealing her ability to channel 24/10."

If this is the source of Lanfear's extreme power wielding ability, what if one of Mierin's unconfirmed wishes was the ability to conceal how much power she can channel. The argument exists as to whether it is possible to conceal HOW MUCH of the power you can channel, or if simply the ability to channel can be concealed. The only REAL example we have of someone concealing how much they can channel is Lanfear while a tower novice. Everything else is speculation (since we don't have 100% proof of Massena's identity in the tower, it's tough to say whether she's masking her ability completely and hiding as a servant of some sort or simply masking how much she can channel and hiding as a sister). Lanfear could still be functioning with her post-wish, pre-death abilities while concealing the amount she can channel.

Another thought on this... why did the doorway melt? What made Moiraine/Lanfear entering the doorway a unique enough event that the door melted? Perhaps it was the fact that Lanfear was entering for a second time (by means of Moiraine pulling her in). This second visit could have short-curcuited the doorway and melted it.

Those are just a few of my thoughts as I read through this.

WCDWarder: 2005-01-26

I don't mean to step on any toes, but are you kidding me with this?!?!? Why can't the simplest answer be the correct one? In my experience that is usually the case, even with RJ.

So what is the simple answer? Well, first, regarding Lanfear's power, maybe she was just born with a stronger ability than any other woman. Someone has to be the strongest ever, why not her? There simply is no evidence that she went to the Eelfin and wished to be more powerful.

As to why she is not as strong after being raised by the Dark One, well there are a number of explanations. One is that her Cyndane body can't handle as much power. This is not likely, however, since Osangar and Arangar have shown no such similar effects, which definitely should have happened with a man channeling from a woman's body. Another possibility is that the mindtrap takes some strength away. But there is no evidence of this, either. Still another theory is that death takes a little bit of strength away. Again, no evidence. To be honest, why Lanfear has less power doesn't matter to me. I would say it will be a RAFO, but I doubt RJ bothers to explain this small detail in the little space he has left.

Second, regarding Moiraine's whereabouts, I think we can all agree she is with the Eelfinn. Did she wish for anything? That's hard to say and we have no clue one way or the other. If I were forced to guess why Lanfear died and Moiraine did not, I would say that Lanfear was a creature of the Shadow, and if the Eelfinn are like the Aelfinn, they killed her for it. Moiraine, on the other hand, could be imprisoned because she brought a Forsaken to the Aelfinn's world. BUT I DO NOT BELIVE THIS. Instead, I believe the simple answer is that the doorway was destroyed, and Moiraine does not know the way back home. That way will be the Tower of Ghenjei, and Thom (perhaps with Matt, Olver, and/or others) will lead her out somehow. This fits because Birgitte has already mentioned how difficult it is to exit the Tower once you find your way in.

Once I again, I believe the best theories keep it simple. Conjecture based on conjecture can get a bit ridiculous.

mako0424: 2005-01-26

i agree simplicity is the best explanation, but expounding on some of the things not explained.

I think Moiraine will be rescued, through the Tower of Ghenji, only to enlighten readers more on this unknown phenomena, and slayer can be introduced and possibly destroyed, we know moiraine has to be rescued.

Min's viewing of moiraine went wrong she says because Moiraine died, and another viewing says Rand will surely lose the battle if he doesn't receive the help of a woman long dead and gone.

I think Lanfear was uber-strong, and maybe her beauty can be disputed, but not her power.

I think she lost power either because the Finns took some, the Dark One to punish her.

I think the doorway melted because they were both holding the Power.

I think music, iron, fire, and courage are in ready supply by any of our characters, but i think Thom is naturally goin to be the noe to save her, as detailed in the letter to him.

Quite possibly, Matt and Olver will be involved.

Callandor: 2005-01-26

**Well, first, regarding Lanfear's power, maybe she was just born with a stronger ability than any other woman. Someone has to be the strongest ever, why not her? There simply is no evidence that she went to the Eelfin and wished to be more powerful.**

There's indirect evidence that can be linked to it. The Forsaken are arrogant, true, but they rarely assert that things are simply impossible -- Cyndane asserts that it is impossible for anyone to be stronger then she was before the Eelfinn held her. If she was born the strongest, why couldn't she believe someone would be born stronger? However if she asked to ~become~ the strongest possible, then it makes perfect sense why she would believe that -- she was given that ability.

**As to why she is not as strong after being raised by the Dark One, well there are a number of explanations. One is that her Cyndane body can't handle as much power. This is not likely, however, since Osangar and Arangar have shown no such similar effects, which definitely should have happened with a man channeling from a woman's body. Another possibility is that the mindtrap takes some strength away. But there is no evidence of this, either. Still another theory is that death takes a little bit of strength away. Again, no evidence. To be honest, why Lanfear has less power doesn't matter to me. I would say it will be a RAFO, but I doubt RJ bothers to explain this small detail in the little space he has left.**

1. As you said, Osan'gar and Aran'gar, and Moridin, show no examples of being reduced in strength at all.

2. Moghedien shows no sign of losing any strength by being mindtrapped.

3. Death doesn't take away strength, because of #1.

Regarding her strength, I doubt it ~won't~ be settled in a subtle way.

And how do you know how much space RJ has left? There are 2 books left, but do you know how long they will be?

And there are other possiblities for why Lanfear may not have died at all.

**TITLE: Winter's Heart

CHAPTER: 35 - With the Choedan Kal

Then the woman struck back at her, and she suffered her second shock. *She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn ~held~ her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger.* She must have an angreal, too. Shock lasted only the time it took her to slice the other woman's flows. She did not know how to reverse them. Maybe that would be enough advantage. She would see Lews Therin die! The taller woman jerked as her cut flows snapped back into her, but even as she shifted her feet with the blow, she channeled again. Snarling, Cyndane fought back, and the earth heaved beneath their feet. She would see him die! She would.**

Held. Held. Held. Not killed. If Lanfear died at any time at all, it would have to had been in Eelfinnland -- otherwise she escaped and then died, which would make no sense at all.

Jammer: 2005-01-27

I wouldn't say that a woman in RJs books being upset and thinking "It's impossible" actually means it IS impossible. A simpler explaination would be that Lanfear just thinks very much of herself, and being the strongest woman back in the 'every AS knows more and is more powerful' probably convinced her she was the mightiest ever. Then a stronger one pops up and she is incredulous.

Aiel Finn: 2005-01-27

Really strange idea here, what if the 'Finns did only hold Lanfear. She might have killed herself to escape, trusting that the DO would bring her back. This would explain why she always says held, and why she has a new body.

Feel free to tear this apart.

WCDWarder: 2005-01-27

Callandor stated:

"There's indirect evidence that can be linked to it [the possibility that Lanfear asked the Eelfin for more power than any other woman]. The Forsaken are arrogant, true, but they rarely assert that things are simply impossible -- Cyndane asserts that it is impossible for anyone to be stronger then she was before the Eelfinn held her. If she was born the strongest, why couldn't she believe someone would be born stronger? However if she asked to ~become~ the strongest possible, then it makes perfect sense why she would believe that -- she was given that ability."

A simpler explanation is that Lanfear had simply never before met another woman stronger that her. Since her life spans quite a long time, in her arrogance, it would seem impossible to her that she now finally encounters a stronger woman.

Callandor further stated:

“1. As you said, Osan'gar and Aran'gar, and Moridin, show no examples of being reduced in strength at all.

2. Moghedien shows no sign of losing any strength by being mindtrapped.

3. Death doesn't take away strength, because of #1.

Regarding her strength, I doubt it ~won't~ be settled in a subtle way.

And how do you know how much space RJ has left? There are 2 books left, but do you know how long they will be?”

No, I do not know how long the last 2 books will be. But reasonably assuming that the books are of a similar length of the most recent books, I still don't see why he would address such a minor point as to why Lanfear has less power. If, however, Lanfear's loss of power is related to some extraordinary explanation, then I suspect he will address the issue. (As an aside, is RJ sadistic enough to refuse to answer the question of who killed Asmodean in the next two books? This one should be answered at some point, just because there is so much debate about it.)

Regarding whether death reduces strength, the theory that makes the most sense to me because it is much simpler than the others, I agree there is no evidence of this with Osan'gar and Aran'gar. But there is no evidence against it either. It simply hasn't been addressed in their POV.

Finally, from Cyndane's POV that she was held by the Eelfinn, Callandor implied that there is no evidence that Lanfear died at any point.

There can be no refuting that at some point Cyndane/Lanfear was held by the Eelfinn. But I believe the fact that she now has a new body is strong evidence of her death, most likely at the hands of the Eelfinn. In every instance where a character received a new body of which we know significant details (we don't know the whole story behind Luc/Isam), the person placed in a new body was dead. We have no evidence that the Dark One can take a soul from a living body and place it in another living body. After all, he has dominion over the dead, not the living. So why would Lanfear be any different? What evidence is there that the Dark One, or anyone else, can simply move Lanfear's soul around at will? None. The simple explanation is that she died, and therefore I believe it to be true.

Callandor: 2005-01-28

**A simpler explanation is that Lanfear had simply never before met another woman stronger that her. Since her life spans quite a long time, in her arrogance, it would seem impossible to her that she now finally encounters a stronger woman.**

I'm going to borrow a bit from SDog's theory:

**We have already established Lanfear's power drop, and her place as perhaps the most beautiful woman in the world. The key to this entire theory lies in just one of Cyndane's statements in WH. When facing Alivia, Cyndane thinks,

“[Alivia] was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and Eelfinn held her. That was impossible! No woman could be stronger! She must have an angreal, too.” -WH, Ch. 35, “With the Choedan Kal” (Emphases from text)

Note that Cyndane does not appear to be merely arrogant about her former abilities; she actually believes that she used to be as strong as it was possible for a woman to be. If it were arrogance, she might be shocked temporarily, much as Moridin is shocked when considering Aviendha's ability to unweave a Gateway (tPoD, Ch. 2, “Unweaving”). But in this case, Cyndane immediately thinks that Alivia must have an angreal—which she does—not that these new, child-like channelers were full of surprises. The idea that a “new” generation of channelers might produce someone naturally stronger than her never crosses her mind. Why is this? Why is she so certain that she had previously reached the maximum ability for female channeers?

If we look at the text for references about Lanfear, we find evidence that she was extremely hungry for power (of any sort). Rand (speaking as Lews Therin) even remarks as such in one of their meetings. Lanfear's biggest ambition is to be the best, most powerful person in the world, even to the extent of challenging the Dark One and Creator (see more conversations with Rand). A person with this sort of motivation and ambition will naturally seek out ways to increase his or her power and influence. I believe it is entirely possible that Lanfear artificially became both the most powerful female channeler, and the most beautiful woman in the world.**

**But reasonably assuming that the books are of a similar length of the most recent books, I still don't see why he would address such a minor point as to why Lanfear has less power.**

1. I highly doubt the books will be under 700 pages each. I'm predicting book 11 to be 1000+, due to the plot lines and only 2 books left.

2. It really isn't a small point, because ~RJ brought attention to it.~ He could've left it totally unmentioned, and that's that. Or he could've explained it right away. Instead, he brought attention to it and specifically pointed it out on multiple occasions.

**(As an aside, is RJ sadistic enough to refuse to answer the question of who killed Asmodean in the next two books? This one should be answered at some point, just because there is so much debate about it.)**

I personally think he will give a POV of the killer thinking "Killing that bastard Asmodean was more trouble then it should've been." or some such in the last book, to finally end it. If not, I think he will answer it in an interview after the books are done, since it serves no point to keep it secrect after that.

**Regarding whether death reduces strength, the theory that makes the most sense to me because it is much simpler than the others, I agree there is no evidence of this with Osan'gar and Aran'gar. But there is no evidence against it either. It simply hasn't been addressed in their POV.**

~Sigh~

Lack of evidence of a theory does not support it in anyway; if you thought about it right, you should be unhappy or disgruntled that there isn't any even vague support of this, instead of using it as a last resort.

**Finally, from Cyndane's POV that she was held by the Eelfinn, Callandor implied that there is no evidence that Lanfear died at any point.**

Implied? I believe I stated that, since there isn't any.

**But I believe the fact that she now has a new body is strong evidence of her death, most likely at the hands of the Eelfinn.**

Name one person that the Eelfinn have killed for sure. There is a strange fact: every single person that has gone into either Aelfinnland or Eelfinnland has survived (or at least we have not confirmed any of their deaths; and in all cases there are strong evidence against it).

**In every instance where a character received a new body of which we know significant details (we don't know the whole story behind Luc/Isam), the person placed in a new body was dead.**

Yes, but we don't know if Lanfear ~was~ placed in the body at all; as I've said, that could be her original form.

**We have no evidence that the Dark One can take a soul from a living body and place it in another living body.**

Exactly, we have no evidence of that. And I'm not saying that is what happened at all.

**After all, he has dominion over the dead, not the living.**

He has neither. He can transmigrate those sworn to him; not any soul he wishes.

**What evidence is there that the Dark One, or anyone else, can simply move Lanfear's soul around at will? None. The simple explanation is that she died, and therefore I believe it to be true.**

Yep, no evidence at all.

~Since I do not believe this is what happened nor have I said that is what happened at any time.~

Aiel Finn: 2005-01-28

Callandor, Cyandene was right when she said that Aliva must have an angreal. She had Nyn's jewelry set. Just before Rand and Nyn begin cleansing the source, Aliva comes and has Nyn give her all the jewelry. Nyn is quite unhappy with this, but she accepts is because she won't be able to use it. Rand even comments on how the angreal fits Aliva perfectly even though she has longer hands.

WCDWarder: 2005-01-30

Callandor stated:

“If we look at the text for references about Lanfear, we find evidence that she was extremely hungry for power (of any sort). Rand (speaking as Lews Therin) even remarks as such in one of their meetings. Lanfear's biggest ambition is to be the best, most powerful person in the world, even to the extent of challenging the Dark One and Creator (see more conversations with Rand). A person with this sort of motivation and ambition will naturally seek out ways to increase his or her power and influence. I believe it is entirely possible that Lanfear artificially became both the most powerful female channeler, and the most beautiful woman in the world.”

We can definitely agree that she is power-hungry, and that it is possible she asked for more power from her captors. But until we see more evidence of this, I just can't say that I believe that was the case. So in the end, I will have to agree to disagree on this point, and I will stick with a more mundane belief.

He further stated (first quoting me):

“**Regarding whether death reduces strength, the theory that makes the most sense to me because it is much simpler than the others, I agree there is no evidence of this with Osan'gar and Aran'gar. But there is no evidence against it either. It simply hasn't been addressed in their POV.**

~Sigh~

Lack of evidence of a theory does not support it in anyway; if you thought about it right, you should be unhappy or disgruntled that there isn't any even vague support of this, instead of using it as a last resort."

The problem with this whole discussion is that there simply is no support for either belief. No one can point to anything supporting the theory that Lanfear asked for more power. The only support anyone has given is the fact that Lanfear is power-hungry. That's a character trait, not evidence that she “wished” to be more powerful.

We don't even know that it is possible for the Eelfinn to give a person more power. Why not just wish to be the Creator's equivalent, then? Or why didn't Rand visit them and ask that the taint be removed from Saidin rather than go to all of the trouble he did? Assuming one of his questions of the Aelfinn was how to remove the taint, they could have easily replied, “Well, you see, there's this doorway in Rhuidean. Just go there and ask the nice fox people to remove it. They'll set you up real good.”

My point is there is a complete lack of evidence on why Lanfear was less powerful, no matter which side you take. We are here to discuss theories (this discussion actually smacks of a hypothesis due to the complete lack of evidence) because we do not have the evidence necessary to prove what we believe.

Callandor went on:

“Name one person that the Eelfinn have killed for sure. There is a strange fact: every single person that has gone into either Aelfinnland or Eelfinnland has survived (or at least we have not confirmed any of their deaths; and in all cases there are strong evidence against it).”

Matt was killed by the Eelfinn, though Rand revived him.

Callandor again:

“[W]e don't know if Lanfear ~was~ placed in the body at all; as I've said, that could be her original form.”

Her original form? I missed that earlier, and apologize if I misquoted Callandor or misstated his position in any way. But this theory really surprises me. Did any of the forsaken recognize her “original form” when they met Cyndane? Like many others, I am posting without my books handy, but I seem to recall one of the forsaken at least wondering who she was. Is the theory that she wished to be all-powerful and the most beautiful even before meeting the other forsaken? Where is there evidence of this?

We've seen forsaken die and get put in new bodies. We've seen Lanfear disappear and reappear in a different body (or form as Callandor alleges) as Cyndane. This strikes me as a simple 2+2=4 problem. The answer appears self-evident.

That's not to say that Callandor's theory isn't possible (and imaginative). But if RJ does explain Lanfear's change in that manner, he may need 2,000 pages in each of the next 2 books instead of the 1,000 Callandor suggests.

Finally, Aiel Finn makes a good point. Alivia did have an angreal when Cyndane saw her, so the whole power discussion may be moot. But assuming Lanfear/Cyndane recognizes a loss of strength in herself, I will stick to my guns on the simple explanation for that loss of power.

Callandor: 2005-01-31

**Callandor, Cyandene was right when she said that Aliva must have an angreal. She had Nyn's jewelry set. Just before Rand and Nyn begin cleansing the source, Aliva comes and has Nyn give her all the jewelry. Nyn is quite unhappy with this, but she accepts is because she won't be able to use it. Rand even comments on how the angreal fits Aliva perfectly even though she has longer hands.**

....

Yes, you are correct, and what does this have to do at all with what I am saying? In fact, pointing out what I was implying, only strengthens and shows my point even more.

Alivia had an angreal (I never, ever, said otherwise). Generally when two unknown channelers meet in a test of strength, it's, of course, unknown the comparison -- look at Nynaeve's battle with Moghedien. Nynaeve kept expecting and expecting that Moghedien was just toying with her; she is taken in total shock that Moghedien was matching her strength for strength.

With Cyndane, what happenes? The first thing, the FIRST new assumption Cyndane makes is that Alivia ~must~ have an angreal (the "too" part is refering to Alivia having a ter'angreal ~and~ the angreal). She is so certain about where she used to stand, that she can make that assumption about Alivia (which turns out to be correct!).

**My point is there is a complete lack of evidence on why Lanfear was less powerful, no matter which side you take. We are here to discuss theories (this discussion actually smacks of a hypothesis due to the complete lack of evidence) because we do not have the evidence necessary to prove what we believe.**

In case you missed it, there is indirect evidence, not total lack of evidence.

**Matt was killed by the Eelfinn, though Rand revived him.**

No, Mat was not killed. RJ has said that Mat hanging from the Tree of Life does not fulfill the to die and live again prophecy from the Aelfinn (Mat being killed by lightning from Rahvin and his being brought back to life from balefire, does).

**Her original form? I missed that earlier, and apologize if I misquoted Callandor or misstated his position in any way. But this theory really surprises me. Did any of the forsaken recognize her “original form” when they met Cyndane?**

And did I ever say that she went to the Forsaken in her original form?

**We've seen forsaken die and get put in new bodies. We've seen Lanfear disappear and reappear in a different body (or form as Callandor alleges) as Cyndane. This strikes me as a simple 2+2=4 problem. The answer appears self-evident.**

Explain why she has a lower amount of strength then. Not one other Forsaken has ever lost channeling strength from being transmigrated -- not one. Yet, ~now~ Cyndane mysteriously is.

The only characteristic that accounts for her drop (outside SDog's apparently "imaginiative" theory), is that if she was stilled and then Healed of being stilled.

Three problems with this:

1. The amount that her power levels drop is in no way proportional to that of Siuan or Leane. Siuan goes from being at close to the pinnicle of Aes Sedai strength, to nearly the absolute bottom of it. Lanfear is remarked and quite clearly believes that she was the strongest woman who could channel; however, now as Cyndane, she can still out class Graendal who has this to say about it:

**TITLE: Path of Daggers

CHAPTER: 12 - New Alliances

Graendal kept her own face smooth, with a little effort. She had supposed this girl some Friend of the Dark whom Moghedien had picked up to run errands, perhaps a noble who thought her title counted, but now that she was close. . . . The girl was stronger in the One Power than she herself! *Even in her own Age, that had been uncommon among men, ~and very rare indeed among women.~* On the instant, on instinct, she changed her intention to deny any contact with Sammael.**

And this is apparently after Lanfear has been reduced in strength from being Healed by stilling.

2. When was she stilled? If this had happened when she had gone into the Eelfinn doorway with Moiraine, she would've been burned out. While being quite similar, a burned out person is, as far as we know, ~unHealable~.

3. If she was Healed back to strength, it must have been a female Forsaken. Count who could not have done it on your fingers:

A. Graendal obviously did not do it, since she met Cyndane in the same chapter I quoted.

B. Moghedien obviously did not do it, since she saw that Moridin already had a Mindtrap when she was freed (after her punishment), and we know that Mindtrap belongs to Cyndane and you can only Mindtrap channelers (IE: she could already channel when she was Mindtrapped).

C. Mesaana did not do it, since she remarks (to Demandred) that she was sure Cyndane was Lanfear, but she was lower in strength. Anyone that performs the Healing, would know that backstory.

Who is left? Semirhage. That's it; unless you want to suppose it was some random Black Ajah Aes Sedai from the Salidar Camp, the only one of which we know to be is Delana (who cannot do what Nynaeve can by far). Either Semirhage Healed Lanfear, or something else happened. Two things wrong with Semirhage doing this:

1. Semirhage Healing Lanfear? Keep saying that statement over and over in your head. And remember that Semirhage has the ultimate hatred of Lanfear, as well as being a super-sadist. Would she go through with it (or would Lanfear even ~let~ her?)? I highly doubt it.

2. Healing of stilling by a woman, is, as far as we know, ~only~ able to be done by Nynaeve. She is the only one. And she has not been:

A. Tortured into doing it.

B. Compelled into doing it (if that was even possible).

C. She did not Heal Lanfear consciously.

So, where is Semirhage going to learn this weave, and then perform it on Lanfear?

**That's not to say that Callandor's theory isn't possible (and imaginative). But if RJ does explain Lanfear's change in that manner, he may need 2,000 pages in each of the next 2 books instead of the 1,000 Callandor suggests.**

Really? 1000 pages to explain that Lanfear was altered? I can think of the explaination in a sentence or two (in Cyndane's POV, something or other like: "Cyndane could remember vivdly entering into the doorway she had already been through before; entering the same realm again. The gifts granted there were the key to her power." This would be more then enough). 1000 more pages? Please.

Stilicho: 2005-02-01

OK, my head hurts. I really see two main points to all of this: 1) Lanfear somehow "turbocharged" her ability with the OP, whether through the finns or otherwise, giving rise to her firm belief that no one could be stronger than her; and 2) As Cyndane, Lanfear is still VERY strong, albeit weaker than in her previous incarnation. Well, what if she simply lost the "turbocharge" in the process of her reincarnation? If those tricky finns gave her the OP boost to begin with, her death may have triggered the loss. Can't you imagine the arrogant Lanfear thinking she had taken advantage of the finns because of her DO given immortality? Thinking she would never die...Anyway, those are my thoughts after reading all the new posts on this theory.

WCDWarder: 2005-02-01

This is a response to Callandor's last message. All quotes come from him.

“Mat was not killed. RJ has said that Mat hanging from the Tree of Life does not fulfill the to die and live again prophecy from the Aelfinn (Mat being killed by lightning from Rahvin and his being brought back to life from balefire, does).”

I never said that Matt's death and resuscitation fulfilled the Aelfinn's prophecy. Nor did RJ say that Matt didn't die in Rhuidean. The character of the two deaths are markedly different. And even if you don't accept that Matt died in Rhuidean, the Eelfinn surely were guilty of attempted murder. So they have it in them to kill.

“In case you missed it, there is indirect evidence, not total lack of evidence.”

Not to make you revisit your so-called “indirect evidence,” but where is it? All you have is a character trait. I like to golf, but that doesn't mean I went to church last Sunday to pray to be the best golfer in the whole world.

“And did I ever say that she went to the Forsaken in her original form?”

No, but can you explain how none of them knew her original form? Are you saying none of them ever met her in her allegedly original form? For that matter did Lews Therin, so that if Rand were to see Cyndane, LT would speak up in his head?

“Explain why she has a lower amount of strength then. Not one other Forsaken has ever lost channeling strength from being transmigrated -- not one.”

How do you know that the ‘gar's did not lose some of their strength after being resurrected in their new forms? They very well might have. We just haven't heard about it from their points of view. The fact that we have heard about Lanfear's loss makes sense since she is so power-hungry. But the fact is we have NO EVIDENCE as to why she lost some of her power.

And for the record, I do NOT believe Lanfear was stilled by her trip through the doorway (or otherwise) before she died, but I recognize the possibility in light of her loss of power. Since I do not believe it, I will not waste time trying to explain how she could have been healed.

“Really? 1000 pages to explain that Lanfear was altered? I can think of the explaination in a sentence or two (in Cyndane's POV, something or other like: "Cyndane could remember vivdly entering into the doorway she had already been through before; entering the same realm again. The gifts granted there were the key to her power." This would be more then enough). 1000 more pages? Please.”

What I said about the 1,000 extra pages was simply sarcasm. But I will add now that if RJ ever came to Theoryland and read this particular board, he might now be inspired to either validate or debunk the myths. Unfortunately I believe he is on record as saying he rarely reads these things.

Callandor: 2005-02-01

**Nor did RJ say that Matt didn't die in Rhuidean.**

Wrong.

WOT FAQ:

**Bill Garrett's report of RJ's appearance at Balticon 30 (April 1996) mentions: "(Jordan noted that Mat's death by lightning and subsequent undoing of his death when Rand balefired Rahvin, fulfills a prophecy about living, dying, and then living again.)" Tim Kington reports that, when asked how long Mat had hung from the Tree of Life in Rhuidean, RJ replied, "Long enough to be ~almost~ dead" (emphasis mine) [post-COT signing, Dayton, OH, January 16, 2004].**

Now drop the issue.

**Not to make you revisit your so-called “indirect evidence,” but where is it? All you have is a character trait. I like to golf, but that doesn't mean I went to church last Sunday to pray to be the best golfer in the whole world.**

A character trait....

Are you ambitious? Arrogant? Sel-assured? If you are, call yourself Lanfear.

And again, you're simply ignoring that there is ~some~ evidence for the theory, and proclaiming there is none.

**No, but can you explain how none of them knew her original form? Are you saying none of them ever met her in her allegedly original form? For that matter did Lews Therin, so that if Rand were to see Cyndane, LT would speak up in his head?**

That's correct, I'm saying that none of the Forsaken saw Lanfear until after she had been to the Finn. Whether this was before the Drilling or after, it doesn't matter -- none fo the Forsaken saw her until she had been granted her wishes.

Would Lews Therin recognize her? How the hell would I know? I'll suppose away and make the wild claim that no, Lews Therin didn't see her as her original form. Or maybe he did, and he will speak up, if he sees her -- it doesn't effect the theory until it happens and can go either way.

**How do you know that the ‘gar's did not lose some of their strength after being resurrected in their new forms? They very well might have. We just haven't heard about it from their points of view. The fact that we have heard about Lanfear's loss makes sense since she is so power-hungry. But the fact is we have NO EVIDENCE as to why she lost some of her power.**

Because we have been given POVs of every one of the transmigrated Forsaken, and they being such strong channelers, as arrogant as they are, you would think they would remark upon that if it was so. The first time we see Osan'gar and Aran'gar Lord of Chaos, they're both pretty mad about the way they've been resurrected. You would think that losing an amount of channeling strength would have been included on their list of things to scream about if it happened to them.

**And for the record, I do NOT believe Lanfear was stilled by her trip through the doorway (or otherwise) before she died, but I recognize the possibility in light of her loss of power. Since I do not believe it, I will not waste time trying to explain how she could have been healed.**

Right. So, you're entire idea is that she died, and the transmigration reduced her strength. Boy oh boy.

Aiel Finn: 2005-02-02

I belive that Merin had to have already have been enhanced to be able to drill the bore in the first place without being killed. If I remember correctly from the BWB, her partner was killed, I think that she needed to be the strongest possible to be able to crack the prison.

WCDWarder: 2005-02-02

Callandor,

First, regarding Matt's death in Rhuidean. No matter whether you believe Matt was killed by the Eelfinn or not, the fact is they had the requisite intent to kill him. The point is, they are capable of killing. So I will not drop the point. You stated that we have never seen the E'finn kill anyone. But you cannot dispute that they have certainly attempted murder.

Second, you state: “Are you ambitious? Arrogant? Self-assured? If you are, call yourself Lanfear.” You say this is evidence of Lanfear asking the Eelfinn for power. It's not even circumstantial evidence. Circumstantial evidence would be something like someone disappearing and reappearing in another body entirely, when you know that under the same circumstances, others have died and been resurrected by the Dark One. You have yet to give any actual evidence of this theory. Bring only character traits to court and the judge will disregard them and ask if you have any actual evidence of her actions, not a propensity to take the actions if given the chance.

Next, “[t]hat's correct, I'm saying that none of the Forsaken saw Lanfear until after she had been to the Finn. Whether this was before the Drilling or after, it doesn't matter -- none of the Forsaken saw her until she had been granted her wishes.” Again, where is your evidence for this? It is simply an unsupported, and at this time unsupportable, hypothesis. Nothing more.

Regarding the ‘gars, you state, “You would think that losing an amount of channeling strength would have been included on their list of things to scream about if it happened to them.” As I believe you stated before, the absence of evidence is no evidence at all. Now I am not saying that the ‘gars lost power at all; or that Lanfear lost power because of her death. I am already on record as saying I don't know why it happened to Lanfear. And I refuse to entertain a wild guess at this point when we have no evidence to support it.

Callandor: 2005-02-02

**Can't you imagine the arrogant Lanfear thinking she had taken advantage of the finns because of her DO given immortality?**

Forsaken are not immortal, don't think of themselves as immortal (or at least if they do, they're quite wrong), and have never been immortal. Immortality is the gift awaiting them for helping the Dark One escape.

**First, regarding Matt's death in Rhuidean. No matter whether you believe Matt was killed by the Eelfinn or not, the fact is they had the requisite intent to kill him. The point is, they are capable of killing. So I will not drop the point. You stated that we have never seen the E'finn kill anyone. But you cannot dispute that they have certainly attempted murder.**

Really? The Finns didn't know Rand would come out right at the time? No shock value?

Intent to kill does not mean they do kill. What you read as intent, can be cruel jokes.

**You say this is evidence of Lanfear asking the Eelfinn for power.**

Please point to where I quoted that as evidence. When you fail to do that, realize that I am using it as an analogy to show why if you can't grasp what Lanfear is at her roots as a person, of course you won't grasp any theory vaguely involving her.

**Circumstantial evidence would be something like someone disappearing and reappearing in another body entirely, when you know that under the same circumstances, others have died and been resurrected by the Dark One. You have yet to give any actual evidence of this theory.**

Name one other Forsaken that has disappeared like Lanfear did.

Thank you.

Now realize that the same circumstances, do not always apply.

And I have given evidence (way the heck back) -- I very specifically quoted that little passage that started the theory.

**Again, where is your evidence for this? It is simply an unsupported, and at this time unsupportable, hypothesis. Nothing more.**

Yeah, and when have I said that I had any evidence for it? Why the Forsaken don't recognize her? Since you are so fond of simplicity, it is the most simple explaination -- she simply got her wishes before she met the Finns.

Don't like it? Why the heck do I care? Doesn't affect the theory.

**Now I am not saying that the ‘gars lost power at all; or that Lanfear lost power because of her death. I am already on record as saying I don't know why it happened to Lanfear. And I refuse to entertain a wild guess at this point when we have no evidence to support it.**

Ah, you do not know what happened, yet you maintain your "simple and straightforward" explaination of it.

WCDWarder: 2005-02-03

Yet another response to Callandor:

“Really? The Finns didn't know Rand would come out right at the time? No shock value?

Intent to kill does not mean they do kill. What you read as intent, can be cruel jokes.”

This is pure speculation on your part. No support whatever can be found for your apparent claim that the ‘finn are prescient and would know Rand would come out and know how and be able to save Matt. Based on what you claim the ‘finns can do and know, you seem to make them the Creator's equivalent. And hey, maybe they are. Maybe they are his “angels” infused with his power to make anything happen, as long as your questions do not touch the “Dark.”

“Please point to where I quoted that as evidence. When you fail to do that, realize that I am using it as an analogy to show why if you can't grasp what Lanfear is at her roots as a person, of course you won't grasp any theory vaguely involving her.”

In your 1/31/04 post you say “[i]n case you missed it, there is indirect evidence.”

And I believe I have acknowledged Lanfear's lust for power. I also made it clear that I believe the theory is possible, just extremely convoluted and unlikely, and that the simpler explanation is that Lanfear died.

“Name one other Forsaken that has disappeared like Lanfear did.

Thank you.

Now realize that the same circumstances, do not always apply.”

You are correct, the same circumstances do not always apply. But to repeat myself yet again, the simple answer to what happened is that she died. And the support for this is her reappearance in a completely different form, like the other two forsaken who died.

“Ah, you do not know what happened, yet you maintain your ‘simple and straightforward' explanation of it.”

My explanation pertained to Lanfear's death and reincarnation, not her loss of power. I presented possibilities for the loss of power, but did not favor one over the other.

Callandor: 2005-02-03

**This is pure speculation on your part. No support whatever can be found for your apparent claim that the ‘finn are prescient and would know Rand would come out and know how and be able to save Matt. Based on what you claim the ‘finns can do and know, you seem to make them the Creator's equivalent. And hey, maybe they are. Maybe they are his “angels” infused with his power to make anything happen, as long as your questions do not touch the “Dark.”**

No, I don't put them on level with the Creator; the Finns actually can effect the world the Creator chooses not to.

And you can call it speculation, but it is quite logical.

We know:

1. The Finn feed on memories.

2. The Aelfinn (at least) know enough about the past, present, and future to always answer questions correctly.

3. The Finn have gathered memories of those that have died (not just the ones of them in Finnland or from before).

How can these three things be all true, and used to maximum effect?

The Finn, in order to gather the most memories at one time, read a person's entire thread, and all possible variations of it. This way, they don't just get the memories of their past, but all their even possible futures to use as well. With this, you can see how if a person asks a question about themselves (like with Mat), they can answer it and be absolutely right, as well as getting the better side of the bargain.

**And I believe I have acknowledged Lanfear's lust for power. I also made it clear that I believe the theory is possible, just extremely convoluted and unlikely, and that the simpler explanation is that Lanfear died.**

Simpler, yes, but over looks one hell of a flaw: why Cyndane is weaker then she was before as Lanfear. The "simple" explaination for this that you gave is it's simply a side-effect of the Forsaken being transimgrated -- which is totally unsupported at all by what we have seen.

**But to repeat myself yet again, the simple answer to what happened is that she died. And the support for this is her reappearance in a completely different form, like the other two forsaken who died.**

And specifically unlike the other ~three~ Forsaken (forgot one of 'em ;)) she is weaker in strength, so much so that at least 4 Forsaken know of it now for sure, and most likely every one of them does.

Yet all the other Forsaken have nothing....

**My explanation pertained to Lanfear's death and reincarnation, not her loss of power. I presented possibilities for the loss of power, but did not favor one over the other.**

You're explaination is only half the work then, since Lanfear supposed death, is assuredly linked to why she is channeling less (and a direct objection to why she was simply transmigrated as well).

WCDWarder: 2005-02-04

Callandor,

All right, I'm going to call an end to this disucssion rather than rehash what we've been through. I respect your fervor for your theory, but will agree to disagree. And I recognize there is some logic in it, but not enough to sway me, especially in light of the lack of evidence. But as I said before, there really is no concrete evidence one way or the other. But I'll certainly look for some as I re-read the books yet again as the release of the next book approaches.

So unless someone presents something new on this topic, I'll close by saying I enjoyed our discussion (even though I am weary of it now). Maybe RJ will clarify this issue in Knife of Dreams.

ranman38: 2005-02-04

A good ole Lanfear debate in an old thread. Actually, I think both of you deserve the name Lanfear. We are all supposing here. Someone will be right, someone will be wrong, perhaps even *shock* both partially right. I have posted my feelings of Lanfear elsewhere, but I will not debate any theory so figorously, because it is a THEORY. Testorone is a dangerous thing, it makes young men sure they are right 100% of the time. lol

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he Tower of Ghenjei

by Unoshato: 2000-11-14 | Not yet rated

Previous Categories: Miscellaneous Theories

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Tamyrlin: 2000-11-14

pointyman: 2002-11-08

Callandor: 2002-12-11

silverwolf: 2002-12-28

Jack o Shadows: 2003-05-04

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Mathwin: 2003-05-05

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Callandor: 2005-01-26

Jammer: 2005-01-27

Aiel Finn: 2005-01-27

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Callandor: 2005-01-28

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Stilicho: 2005-02-01

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Callandor: 2005-02-02

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Callandor: 2005-02-03

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ranman38: 2005-02-04