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Home | Index | Archives | Help
ho Killed Asmodean
by Ankit: 2000-11-15 | Not yet rated
Previous Categories: Miscellaneous Theories
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2000-11-15
That is an interesting possibility...I can't remember what he was doing...wasn't that the same time as when Perrin was defending Two Rivers and Isam was wounded?
silverwolf: 2002-12-28
During a CNN interview, Robert Jordan pretty much admitted that Graendal killed Asmondean. CNN asked "Why is everyone having such a tough time figuring out who killed Asmodean? Graendal did it." RJ replied, "I don't know why. It seems like all the clues are there if the reader is paying attention." I know that RJ doesn't say straight out that Graendal killed Asmodean, but I think he wouldn't let that slip by as easily as he did if CNN was wrong. Besides, who really cares who killed Asmodean? Maybe RJ will tell us later on, but I don't think it plays an important part in the story.
Callandor: 2002-12-28
RJ wouldn't just come out and say who killed Asmodean in an interview, he has been in FAR too many when he says that he likes to see us squirm. As for why its important, lets say it is Graendal. That means that she got past every one in Caemyln, found where Asmodean was in the Palace, and killed him and got the body out (if there was one left, which is kinda unlikely but cant be left out). And he was one of the Forsaken, he was teaching Rand, he had a lot of the information about the AoL (mostly important because LTT wasnt talking to Rand a lot), and no matter how bad of a teacher he was he couldve taught the Asha man when he wasnt teaching Rand.
silverwolf: 2002-12-29
You misunderstood what I said. I agree that Asmodean's death is important to the series; I just don't think it matters who killed him. As for how Greandal could have gotten in and out, in the last chapter of WH a woman matching her description battles Verin's circle. I'm pretty sure this is Graendal because she was stronger than the circle (Graendal is the only Forsaken we know to possess an angreal). I don't know how Graendal hid the glow of saidar, but the woman couldn't have been Halima/Arangar: Arangar doesn't wear streith at any point we have seen, and Halima's description when we see her fighting Eben's circle doesn't match this woman's.
Callandor: 2003-01-01
RJ said that we should've been able to figure out who kiled Asmodean right away, or byLOC for sure. Now im not totally sure but if we go by TFOH right away recognition, I dont think we even heard much of Graendal except through associations (like through what Asmodean might have said but I dont think he ever mentioned her). So we really cant concider her in my mind. Slayer, we didnt really get the full exposure to his talents till WH so I cancel him out. Sammael said, in pure fury, that he still thought Asmodean was teaching Rand as of LOC so hes out. The Gars, Shadar Hadan, and Moridin were busy not being known of at that point. Moggy was chained by that point. Demandred is a strong case because he couldve eliminated Asmodean so he could be placed as Taim, but Im iffy on that subject so hes gone in my mind. Ravhin, dead of course. Semirhage, in most peoples opinion, and my own, is Anath, so she was traveling across the ocean at that time with a bunch of demane, and not only would it be kinda hard to create a gateway, but she probably had no idea where Rand was. Demandred, was told that Asmodean died **the final death** by the DO, and if you killed someone do you really need someone else to tell you so? Mesaana... not sure about. Main thing is would she know that Rand had taken Caemlyn and Asmodean was with him? Remember Rand attacked after Ravhin spur of the moment. Unless Im forgeting someone the only one left is Lanfear. She was sadly in Finnland at the time. But she couldve used one of her wishes to kill him. So in my mind Lanfear is the biggest canidate. But hey, Im not writing it in stone.
Garayur: 2005-04-03
Lets look at what we know about asmodeans death.
1. he knew the person that killed him
2. that person can most likely channel because asmodean was most likely strong enough with the power to stop brute force.
3. Asmodean wasn't very scared of whoever killed him, just suprised.
4. the person who killed him had to have known who he was and or considerd him a threat.
5. This person had to have had access to him
6. Motive
This said i believe Aviehnda killed Asmodean. asmodean knew her as Rands lover or a least ally. avienda is capable of channeling and is therefore phisicaly capable of killing him. Asmosdean would not have expected her to run into him and he wouldn't have been very scared at all of a person he would have considered a mere child with the power. Not only that but this also rules out any of the forsaken and Slayer. He would have been scared spitless if it had been a Forsaken because of his betrayal of them. Slayer Is lord Luc in the real world and therefore unrecodnizablee to asmodean, even if he was Isam is a well known assasin and would have scared him. Avienda saw evidence of Asmodeans ability to channel, when Her and rand come back thrugh her gateway Rand says there is a weave there that he doesn't know what it is. since she would not be able to see it it would be obvios that it wasn't siadar and since rand didn't know what it was he couldn't have made it. Among the Aiel darkfreinds are killed on discovery giving her a motive as well as wanting to protect Rand. She came with Rand on the Strike on Caemlyn, no one else who had motive did. She was killed when Demandred attacked.
Callandor: 2005-04-04
**3. Asmodean wasn't very scared of whoever killed him, just suprised.**
No, Asmodean paled at his murderer -- he was quite terrorfied of them.
**Avienda saw evidence of Asmodeans ability to channel, when Her and rand come back thrugh her gateway Rand says there is a weave there that he doesn't know what it is.**
Aviendha saw nothing, only heard Rand talk about it. The way he went about what happened, she couldn't get a clue from it.
Futhermore, unless it was a murder of opprotunity, the killer knew who and what Asmodean was. Aveindha thought he was a simple gleeman -- nothing more. She would've been hounding after a gleeman, for what you say she saw as him channeling? Hardly.
Also, Aviendha was last seen by the pool with Mat. Now, unless she got away from Mat quickly (no mention of it), then got ahead of Asmodean (tought to do in a place she has never been to, and when even he didnt know where he was going), and laid in wait for him, she was still at the pool.
And, again, Asmodean was terrorfied of his killer. As you said, Aviendha should seem like a child to him (if he even worries over it).
maharbry: 2005-04-04
Im going to disagree with you. First of all, Asmo is afraid of his killer, because as soon as he sees him/her he says "you... no." So as soon as he saw this person he knew he was going to die.
secondly, What reason would avi have to kill a minstrel... no one but a select few know he is actually asmo and certainly Avi wouldnt know. Im not exactly sure, but ive narrowed it down to Taim or Lanfear.
By the way... people always argue he wasnt killed with the power because no one felt the source being used. However, I do not think it would be terribly difficult to set up a warding against channelingif this person knew asmo was coming... or if he perhaps, wandered into a secret meeting which could have already been warded. So I think use of the pwoer is a possibility in this murder.
One more thing.... No one would have sensed the true power being used .... just some food for thought
Jiana: 2005-04-04
Asmodean wouldn't have recognized Lanfear, because when she was "revived" she looked different. No one who knew her and then encountered her after her revival knew who she was. Why would Asmodean be any different? I don't think it would necessarily have to have been a channeler who killed Asmodean. Plenty of people went to Caemlyn with Rand to destroy Rahvin. When the battle between Rahvin and Rand was finally done, and he leaves the palace, he sees Asmodean holding his sword, but doubts that he knows how to use it, and bets that most of his fighting that day was with the Power. So there were plenty of people there to witness him channeling, even if they could not see the flows. One could argue that Asmodean was weak in the Power and could not channel to such a degree to where people would notice, but I disagree. I liked the idea of Aviendha, because she has heard a lot of conversations between Rand and his supposed gleeman; conversations that were vague in some references, true, but Aviendha is far from stupid. And if Moiraine knew about Asmodeans true identity, who else figured it out? That is, I liked the idea of Aviendha until I read Callandor's rebuttal. It's true, she simply didn't have time to make it from the courtyard to the closet. Bashere is not a good suspect either, because he was with Rand. And true, no one could have sensed the TP being used, but Moridin can be ruled out as well, unless he wove the Mask of Mirrors to look like his former self, because Asmodean wouldn't have recognized him. Just for the record, I am not entirely certain we'll ever find out the truth.
Jiana: 2005-04-04
Oh, I also meant to add... Taim can also be ruled out, IMO, because he hasn't physically appeared in the story at this point. And it's likely that Asmodean didn't know who Taim was, either.
Callandor: 2005-04-05
** Asmodean wouldn't have recognized Lanfear, because when she was "revived" she looked different. No one who knew her and then encountered her after her revival knew who she was. Why would Asmodean be any different?**
1. We do not know specifically what happened to Lanfear. Did she die? Possibly. Is it for sure? Absolutely not.
2. It's entirely possible for Lanfear to show up and kill Asmodean (and be recognized by him) if she used one of her wishes to do so.
**I don't think it would necessarily have to have been a channeler who killed Asmodean. Plenty of people went to Caemlyn with Rand to destroy Rahvin. When the battle between Rahvin and Rand was finally done, and he leaves the palace, he sees Asmodean holding his sword, but doubts that he knows how to use it, and bets that most of his fighting that day was with the Power. So there were plenty of people there to witness him channeling, even if they could not see the flows.**
It's his method of death matching almost exactly word for word (in this case synonym to synonym), to that of Be'lal's death by balefire, as well as the point that no one at all has discovered his body, and it makes for effective disposal of it (the body is entirely destroyed).
Also, if it was anyone other then a channeler, there is a staggering chance that Asmodean could've thwarted any attack on him by a simple weave of Air (one that even he could use).
With Asmodean being recognized, I don't think this holds up at all. First, it's the middle of a battle, hard to see anything let alone point out a subtlty of this size. Second, Asmodean is weak at that point, and wouldn't be channeling to affect all the Shadowspawn or those far away -- simply ones that come too close for comfort.
**And if Moiraine knew about Asmodeans true identity, who else figured it out?**
Moiraine had inside information -- she was spying on Rand and Asmodean's private conversations. More then likely there was a slip of far greater magnitude than any Aviendha overheard or saw.
**Just for the record, I am not entirely certain we'll ever find out the truth.**
Come, come. RJ would be lynched by readers if he did that ;) I think we will get a "for the moron's who haven't see the intuitively obvious" POV chapter with the killer mentioning the death of Asmodean by their hand; most likely in the last book. If not, I'm sure RJ will give the information out after the series finishes, since it serves no point to beat around the bush anymore.
Aiel Finn: 2005-04-06
In her letter, Morianne says that she understands why Rand needs Asmodean. She wouldn't have killed him because she knew Rand needed him. Lanfear may have used one of her wishes to go kill him. She wouldn't have neccecarilly been changed yet and would have gone back to the Finns afterwards.
Garayur: 2005-04-06
Thanks Callandor I just reread the section. Your right Asmo was scared of whoever killed him so it probably wasn't Avienda.
**He pulled open a small door, intending to find his way to the pantry. There should be some decent wine. One step, and he stopped, the blood draining from his face.
“You? No!” The word still hung in the air when death took him.**
Most of what i said still stands though the person had to have been in Caemlyn already, gone with Rand, or was able to travel.
Sampson: 2005-04-06
This question is always good.
I have 2 ideas.
(1) If it has to be a character in the WOT series I would have to pick Mordin/Ishmael. The prologe in the Eye of the World gave us his MO. He wanted LTT to know what has happened and who to blame. It was his ego and he wanted LTT to know it was him. Plus he could use the TP and he is the skulker who has the mask when he is spying on Sammy & Grandal. He has the ability and motive – he doesn't want Rand learning too much too quickly. The rest of the Chosen would just kill him and make an example of it to Rand. But Ishy is a philosopher and it fits into his mind games.......Grandal & Sammy are close behind Mordin in my opinion, but I do not think it could have been Slayer.
(2) This is the one I have come to believe. RJ
It's that simple. As everybody knows almost every character has been examined and the books read to find all the clues and details. But no matter what, everybody has their own ideas. There are some very intelligent and knowledgeable people who post and have been motivated to find this answer. But nobody has been able to present an argument that would convince the majority of people.
I think RJ needed Asmodean dead for the rest of the series. He had a number of people who had motives; he has planted enough abilities out there that it was possible for the murder to happen. So I believe HE didn't have any particular person in mind when he wrote it. He just needed Asmodean dead, he expected the readers to accept the fact that Asomdean was dead and out of the story, which we would then move on and not question every little thing that has been written. I do not think all the groups on the web were popular or as big as they are now when he wrote that part. He wouldn't have had a clue that his books would be dissected and examined in such a detailed way. Now whoever he says did it, it won't matter because we all think we know who did it and RJ is just back tracking and covering his tail.
maharbry: 2005-07-31
I am rereading the series in preparation for KoD. Im at the end of FoH and the more I think about it, the more I think Taim.I dont believe this angle has been looked at before (at least from what I've seen) so before you dismiss my theory, hear me out.
We know that Ish was free before the beginning of the series. The anthology (whatever you call it) says he may have been free as early as 984 (its currently 999 or so). Also there were two forsaken at the eye of the world when Rand got there (Aginor and Balthamel if im not mistaken). Is it not possible for Asmo to have gotten out in time to teach Taim? We know Taim is a darkfriend. I think the DO sent Asmo to teach him because Asmo was the least aggressive of the forsaken. This would explain Asmo knowing who Taim was; Not to mention the fact that Taim is almost as strong in the power as Rand. If asmo had taught him, he would have known this. Therefore he would have known that the little bit he could channel wouldnt be nearly sufficient to defend himself against Taim.
Secondly, isnt it a bit of a coincidence that Taim appears very soon after Asmo's demise. He appears to know more about the power than Rand. He could have seen this as a way to get in close with Rand. With Asmo dead, Taim could still teach rand, thus gaining a level of trust. So while i think Taimandred is bullcrap. I do believe that he was responsible for this.
Feel free to tear this apart if you wish. but i think it is pretty sound considering my limited theory posting expirience.
Callandor: 2005-08-01
**Is it not possible for Asmo to have gotten out in time to teach Taim?**
Highly unlikely. Asmodean wasn't released as far as we can tell until sometime between the end of The Eye of the World and the beginning of The Great Hunt. That's roughly a month of time. At the start of The Great Hunt, we are made aware of Taim's proclimation -- and there are references of trouble in Saldaea that most likely is Taim, as early as The Eye of the World.
If Taim had a teacher, the most likely canidate is Ishamael.
**We know Taim is a darkfriend.**
No, we don't. It's almost for sure that he is. But it's not known.
**This would explain Asmo knowing who Taim was; Not to mention the fact that Taim is almost as strong in the power as Rand.**
Strength in the Power is inate; training really only makes it easier to get to your full potential.
**Therefore he would have known that the little bit he could channel wouldnt be nearly sufficient to defend himself against Taim.**
He still should've tried in any case.
But also, Taim would not have known about Asmodean's shield -- a major downfall of any Forsaken or anyone killing Asmodean, except Lanfear.
**Secondly, isnt it a bit of a coincidence that Taim appears very soon after Asmo's demise.**
It might or might not be.
**He appears to know more about the power than Rand. He could have seen this as a way to get in close with Rand. With Asmo dead, Taim could still teach rand, thus gaining a level of trust.**
But Asmodean does not need to be the only source of Taim's training. If anything, Ishamael makes more sense than anyone, due to him being freed earlier than anyone.
mb: 2008-09-16
Someone he would recognize would exclude the New Forsaken. So the killer could not have been Aginor/Osangar, Balthamel/Arangar, Ishamel/Moridin, or Lanfear/Cyndane. Asmodean probably could not have recognized Fain, Haran, Slayer, Taim, or a Black Ajah Aes Sedia.
It could not have someone who was dead. So the killer could not have Belal or Rahvin.
It would be improbable for a non-channeler to have both kill and hide the body. Though balefire would not have necessarily been the method. By the scream, I take the body remained (in existence).
Moghedien can also be excluded since she was locked in an adam with Nynaeve & Elayne in Salidar.
It would have been improbable for someone on the side of the Light to have killed him since they would not had a reason to hide.
It would have needed to be someone who knew he would be in Caemlyn. So it would be improbable for Demandred, Mesaana, or Semirhage to be the killer.
These would limit the suspect to Graendal & Sammael.
The killer would need to know he is dead, and Sammael doubts it (or doubted it since he was next Forsaken to die).
So the killer could only be Graendal.
Ozymandias: 2008-09-25
Firstly; improbable does not mean impossible, and the very logic that your using to exclude Demandred, Semi, and Mesaana, should all be equally applicable to Graendal, and to a lesser degree, Sammael. So show a little consistency.
Secondly. Why can't it be a good guy? Moiraine figured out who he was. No reason someone else couldn't have.
Thirdly. It could have been Slayer, or a Black Ajah Aes Sedai (though the latter is HIGHLY unlikely). Slayer is assassin extraordinaire for the Shadow, its likely Asmodean knows of him. And as for the Black Ajah, its quite possible some of them have had contact with Asmo; Alviarin mentions being whisked off by Be'lal for some afternoon delight (albeit in the middle of the night); no reason Asmo couldn't have done the same thing.
Just pointing out a few basic flaws in your reasoning. Logic without evidence needs to be pretty damn strong... this wasn't
Daes daemar: 2008-09-28
Mb
Nice theorising. Robert Jordan once said he found it amusing that people didn't know who it was that killed Asmo. This leads me to think that it must be a painfully obvious answer. Your theory by way of deduction sums it up perfectly. Although I still think there was a single clue planted somewhere that made it obvious (but we probably all over think it so much that we miss the hint). But so far your- the long way around- theory is the most convincing. Bravo! But now we must ask ourselves... Why did Grandael kill Asmodean? Was it just to lash out at a Chosen who seemed to have sided with the Dragon Reborn? Or perhaps as most people say... Just so she could stop him from teaching Rand? Interesting.