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s Verin Black Ajah?

by Kadere: 2000-11-27 | 10 out of 10 (4 votes)

Previous Categories: Miscellaneous Theories

It came to me while I was reading WH, that Verin might be a darkfriend, whose sole purpose is to do what ever it takes, to make sure the Dragon reaches the last battle. I say this because: A. She uses compulsion, to make all the captive sisters to swear to Rand B. She was about to poison Cadsuane, until Cad made it clear that she wants Rand to reach the last battle. I thought that Aes Sedai couldn't kill.... She is still alive despite battling darkfriends left right and centre finally she is always wherever Rand is.

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Comments

Tamyrlin: 2000-11-27

Not Black Ajah, but she may have gotten rid of the three oaths, but we have a ton of her POV but nothing to indicate her saying Chosen, or Great Lord or anything else. She definitely is doing something but I don't think BA.

Tel Al Vindor: 2002-11-04

She is not Black Ajah. She is Lanfear in disguise. You never see the two of them together in any part of the story. Remember Lanfear has already been disguised as a big chick. Why not Verin. Verin who has seems to have so much information about things that no one else knows.

yammosk: 2002-11-06

She is not Black Ajah, but she is something. And she is not Lanfear, unless Lanfear got out of the Bore super early, and also why would she be in the Aiel waste and Edmond's field at the same time without making a gateway that any hundereds of wise ones would not see.

oldmanfish: 2002-11-06

Dark Brown, but not Black. Still under Oath, hence the ageless features. Aes Sedai can kill anyone they want, just not with the power. Thus a non-Black AS would need something like... poison?

She's on our side, she just uses unorthodox methods, much like Cadsuane.

darkone: 2002-11-06

I think that Verin, far from being a darkfriend, is in fact solidly behind Rand. By all indications, she seems determined to ensure that Rand is free (especially from Aes Sedai manipulation) to follow his own course for the Last Battle. The compulsion she exerted on the captive sisters so that they would swear to Rand supports this. Her decision not to poison Cadsuane AFTER she had indicated that all she wanted to do was rekindle Rand's more humane side (in contrast to putting a leash on him), also seems to indicate that he loyalty is first and foremost to the Dragon.

Darren: 2002-11-09

Aes Sedai can kill, they just can't use the OP to kill... She's no more Black Ajah than Rand is, but as with the DR, she'll do some cold #@%$ to achieve her ends...

P.S. Lanfear?

silverwolf: 2002-12-28

Something I haven't heard anyone mention is that Verin appearently lied in TGH. When she catches up to Ingtar's group, she tells them "Moiraine Sedai sent me." At the end of TGH, when Moiraine is talking to Rand, Moiraine says "I did not send Verin." We know that Moiraine is not BA, so the most obvious reason for the discrepency is that Verin lied (Note: during an interview, RJ said that the discrepency was not a mistake.) There are other possibilities--Verin could have received a note supposedly from Moiraine, a Forsaken could have used compulsion/illusion to convince her that Moiraine had sent her, etc. I personally think that Verin was tricked in some way; she appears to be solidly behind Rand (In WH she is ready to poison Cadsuane until Cadsuane shows that she supports Rand, and in TPoD she appearently uses a mild form of compulsion to convince the captive Aes Sedai to keep Rand alive.) Also, in the last chapter of WH when RJ is writing from Verins POV, he still uses the term Forsaken in her thoughts, not Chosen. This isn't proof that she isn't Black Ajah, but it does support the claim that she isn't Black.

Dedicated: 2003-02-05

I myelf have always been solidly behind Verin being on Rand's side. The only strange thing to me in the whole affair was the bonding of Rand by Alanna, but I won't discuss that here. I think it's clear she's not Black. She's just cold and calculating to the extreme. Verin simply does what has to be done. She said the weave she uses is akin to Compulsion, but not actually Compulsion, which is forbidden.

She has circumvented the oaths somehow, though. Maybe she unswore her lying oath? Verin seems to know a great many things that other Aes Sedai do not. Maybe she knew you could unswear oaths on the Rod. She was also the one who gave Egwene the stone ring ter'angreal, meaning she probably knew about T'A'R' before most Aes Sedai now living did. Jordan has made Verin mysterious, but ultimately good character.

Oh yeah, just remember, other Aes Sedai suspected Cadsuane as being BA. I think that's orginally why Verin was going to poison her. Verin determined Cadsuane wasn't BA and didn't poision her.

Ingtar: 2003-03-07

I think your theory is interesting but I see some flaws. Why would the Dark One want to face Rand. Wouldn't he want to minimize the possibility he will be defeated in the Last Battle? And if Verin is a darkfriend why didn't she take the Horn of Valere when she was escorting a sickly Mat to the Tower? She had all the chance in the world to bring this most formidable weapon to her Great Lord and she didn't.

timetorollthedice: 2004-03-05

The two main concerns with Verin are her lie in TGH and her use of (minor) compulsion in COS. I agree that if she were black, she would have taken advantage before now.

I do think she has un-sworn the 3 oaths. Maybe she has been around long enough to never have sworn them, though if she has ageless features, that is unlikely.

Dreamwolf: 2004-10-12

I just figured it out! I was reading an RJ interview and he said you can unswear the three oaths on an oath-rod found in TAR. Verin knew how to enter TAR for a long time with the stone ring. She unswore the oaths and is now able to do as she wishes. Not only that, but the black Ajah seems to be able to unsware the oaths whenever they want, why not one who isn't black. I think Verin could've either unsworn the oaths in TAR or in the real world easily enough to not make her Black Ajah. However, she is one devilish woman.

Callandor: 2004-10-12

**Not only that, but the black Ajah seems to be able to unsware the oaths whenever they want, why not one who isn't black.**

Three things wrong with this:

1. Unswearing the Oaths is not a well known thing; in fact very few know of it, that's why someone like Romanda is so shocked by it and Egwene's suggestions.

2. The Black Ajah do not simply remove the Oaths whenever they feel like it. They remove them, and replace them with their own (with the same Oath Rod in the White Tower no less!).

3. With the Oaths removed, the Ageless look is removed. Verin has that, and shows no indication of ever losing it.

PepperjackCandy: 2007-12-20

3. With the Oaths removed, the Ageless look is removed. Verin has that, and shows no indication of ever losing it.

No, they lose the ageless look upon being stilled, not upon having the oaths removed. If removing the oaths would do it, it'd be easy to find the Black sisters.

I believe that Verin removed her oaths with the rod in TAR. That was when she injured her arm.

Either she wasn't expecting it to hurt as badly as it did, and injured herself falling, or she lost consciousness from the pain and was attacked by a wandering nightmare creature while she was unconscious.

Lar19s: 2007-12-28

It is very unlikely that Verin is black.

First the use of compulsion is not stopped by the three oaths. Compulsion is only prohibited by custom. It is at one point suggested that it be used on Rand through his bond. This makes it sound as if it is a long standing custom to use it to control Warders.

Second I don't think that Verin was going to poison Cadsuane. That would not have been the way Verin works. It is more likely that anything that was but in Cadsuane's drink would have put her in a state close to being drunk. So that Verin could then use compulsion on Cadsuane with out having to fight her to do it.

Third in TGH when Verin said that Moiraine had sent her it is not really a lie. Moiraine most likely did send her somewhere at some point. Verin never said that Moiraine had sent her after Rand just that Moiraine had sent her somewhere.

Marie Curie 7: 2008-01-02

PepperjackCandy:
"No, they lose the ageless look upon being stilled, not upon having the oaths removed. If removing the oaths would do it, it'd be easy to find the Black sisters."

It's the Oath Rod that causes the ageless look. None of the other channeling groups (Wise Ones, Sea Folk Windfinders, Kin, etc.) have the ageless look. Stilling does indeed lead to the loss of the ageless look for Aes Sedai, but that's because it frees an Aes Sedai from the Oaths (recall that when Siuan and Leane were stilled, they could lie again because the Oaths were removed by stilling). If you'd like a fairly complete summary of all the evidence that supports this conclusion, see the WoT FAQ.

The members of the Black Ajah retain the ageless look because they swear a new set of three oaths to replace the original ones:

-------
TITLE: Crown of Swords, CHAPTER: 40 - Spears

She would be rescued eventually, of course; she knew that. The Tower would not allow a sister to remain in captivity. Elaida would not allow a Red to be held. Surely Alviarin would send rescue. Someone would, anyone, to save her from these monsters, especially from Therava. She would promise anything for that deliverance. She would even keep those promises. She had been broken free of the Three Oaths on joining the Black Ajah, replacing them with a new trinity, but at that moment she truly believed she would keep her word, if it brought rescue. Any promise, to anyone who would free her. Even a man.
------

"I believe that Verin removed her oaths with the rod in TAR. That was when she injured her arm."

Verin still has the ageless look, so we know that she's still bound by the Oath Rod.

Valinthros: 2008-01-04

***No, they lose the ageless look upon being stilled, not upon having the oaths removed. If removing the oaths would do it, it'd be easy to find the Black sisters.***

False. The Black Sisters replace the 3 oath's with 2 or more of thier own. And yes, the ageless look is directly from the use of the oath rod; also known to the Forsaken as binding criminals in the age of legends. This is only a side effect of being stilled: I.E. Suan Sanche can now lie, and is not bound by the three oaths.(Let me know if you want some links to this)

***I do think she has un-sworn the 3 oaths. Maybe she has been around long enough to never have sworn them, though if she has ageless features, that is unlikely.***

She must be bound by the oath rod on two or more oaths; the oath rod does not produce the ageless look unless you have taken two or more oaths. There is no way that Verin could be older enough to be around before the oaths were in place... as that would place her birth to be before the trolloc wars... and the oldest Aes Sedai couldnt be more than 350 or so tops...

***Second I don't think that Verin was going to poison Cadsuane. That would not have been the way Verin works. ***

Oh I'm sure it was poison that was going into her drink. Take another close look at the POV...

My personal take on this theory:

Verin is definitely not Black Ajah. Quite cold hearted in her support of Rand; for what reason I am unsure; could be the usual Brown Ajah history reasons.. though I doubt it.. Certainly not Black though.

Marie Curie 7: 2008-01-04

Lar19s:
"First the use of compulsion is not stopped by the three oaths. Compulsion is only prohibited by custom. It is at one point suggested that it be used on Rand through his bond. This makes it sound as if it is a long standing custom to use it to control Warders."

Compulsion itself is not just prohibited by custom or tradition -- it's banned. For example:

-------
TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight, CHAPTER: 30 - What the Oath Rod Can Do

"That sounds exactly like Compulsion, Lelaine. It is Compulsion, and no twisting of words will make it anything else. I will point that out to anyone else who suggests this. And I will order the birch for anyone who does more than suggest. Compulsion is banned, and it will remain banned."
------

And one more example:

------
TITLE: Path of Daggers, CHAPTER: 26 - The Extra Bit

"When she is tried, Pevara," Seaine said thoughtfully. "A pity to lose the assistance of one we know isn't a Darkfriend. And since she is a rebel, we need not be overly concerned about using her." There had been a number of discussions, none to a conclusion, about the second reason for leaving the new oath in place. A sister sworn to obey could be compelled - Seaine shifted uneasily; that sounded entirely too close to the forbidden vileness of Compulsion - he could be induced to help in the hunt, so long as you did not mind forcing her to accept the danger, whether she wished to or not. "I cannot think they would send only one," she went on. "Zerah, how many of you came to spread this tale?"
-------

With respect to the Warder bond, compelling (with a lower case "c") a Warder is apparently more a matter of custom:

-------
TITLE - The Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 22 - Watchers

For the hundredth time - or so it seemed to her - she considered the words to use. "Before we left Tar Valon I made arrangements, should anything happen to me, for your bond to pass to another." He stared at her, silent. "When you feel my death, you will find yourself compelled to seek her out immediately. I do not want you to be surprised by it."

"Compelled," he breathed softly, angrily. "Never once have you used my bond to compel me. I thought you more than disapproved of that."
-------

But Alanna tried to control (or compel) Rand after she bonded him, and she never gave any thought to it being against custom, so some Aes Sedai may be more willing to use the bond for control than others. Then again, Alanna also broke custom by bonding Rand without first asking.

-------
TITLE: Path of Daggers, CHAPTER: 12 - New Alliances

Cadsuane scowled over the cup at her. She might have. There was no difference between what Alanna had done and a man forcing himself on a woman, but, the Light help her, she might have, had she believed it would help her reach her goal. Now, she no longer considered even making Alanna pass the bond to her. Alanna had proved how useless that was in controlling him.
-------

Daekyras: 2008-01-08

"It's the Oath Rod that causes the ageless look. None of the other channeling groups (Wise Ones, Sea Folk Windfinders, Kin, etc.)" Marie Curie 7

I'm not sure about this because I haven't read the early books in a long while but when Egwene meets Amys for the first time, in real life, in Rhuidean and finds out that the wise ones can channel she says that she recognises Amys' "too young features" as a product of having channeled and being the same as that which does effect Moiraine and will effect her.

This suggests that wise ones are effected by the non-aging. I will go and look for quotes later on.

I'm almost sure that Elayne recognises the "youthful" appearance of the sea folk wind finder she meets in the same book (the shadow rising).

And aren't most of the kin seriously old? To the point that even with the aging they look like older ladies? I don't think that it has been shown that the rod causes the lack of aging.

I think it is implied that it is the Oath rod that stops Aes Sedai from living to crazy ages like they did in the Age of Legends.

I also think that Verin is not Black Ajah.

Marie Curie 7: 2008-01-09

Daekyras:
"I'm not sure about this because I haven't read the early books in a long while but when Egwene meets Amys for the first time, in real life, in Rhuidean and finds out that the wise ones can channel she says that she recognises Amys' "too young features" as a product of having channeled and being the same as that which does effect Moiraine and will effect her."

I think that you are misunderstanding what the ageless look is. It doesn't mean that the channeler looks young, rather it means that an age cannot be assigned to the channeler. The link to the WoT FAQ that I posted previously explains it, but for example, consider one of the first descriptions of Moiraine, from Rand's point of view:

-------
TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 2 - Strangers

Rand's gaze fell to the woman who had spoken. She, too, had been watching the flight of the raven, but now she turned back, and her eyes met his. He could only stare. This had to be the Lady Moiraine, and she was everything that Mat and Ewin had said, everything and more.

When he had heard she called Nynaeve child, he had pictured her as old, but she was not. At least, he could not put any age to her at all. At first he thought she was as young as Nynaeve, but the longer he looked the more he thought she was older than that. There was a maturity about her large, dark eyes, a hint of knowing that no one could have gotten young. For an instant he thought those eyes were deep pools about to swallow him up. It was plain why Mat and Ewin named her a lady from a gleeman's tale, too. She held herself with a grace and air of command that made him feel awkward and stumble-footed. She was barely tall enough to come up to his chest, but her presence was such that her height seemed the proper one, and he felt ungainly in his tallness.
------

And another example (there are many throughout the books):

------
TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 2 - The Welcome

A dozen paces in front of the Warders, a row of women stood by their horses' heads, the cowls of their cloaks thrown back. He could count them, now. Fourteen. Fourteen Aes Sedai. They must be. Tall and short, slender and plump, dark and fair, hair cut short or long, hanging loose down their backs or braided, their clothes were as different as the Warders' were, in as many cuts and colors as there were women. Yet they, too, had a sameness, one that was only obvious when they stood together like this. To a woman, they seemed ageless. From this distance he would have called them all young, but closer he knew they would be like Moiraine. Young-seeming yet not, smooth-skinned but with faces too mature for youth, eyes too knowing.
-------

And finally, one more:

-------
TITLE: Crown of Swords, CHAPTER: 1 - High Chasaline

If they weren't Aes Sedai, anyway, he thought wryly. Once he had danced with an Aes Sedai, and nearly swallowed his tongue when he realized who he swung about. And she had been a friend, if that word applied to Aes Sedai. How new does an Aes Sedai have to be for me to put an age to her? The others looked ageless, of course; maybe in their twenties, maybe their forties, changing from one glance to the next, always uncertain. That was what their faces said, though several showed gray in their hair. You just could not tell with Aes Sedai. About anything.
-------

"This suggests that wise ones are effected by the non-aging. I will go and look for quotes later on."

Only Aes Sedai have the ageless look (except for newly raised sisters). The Aiel Wise Ones who can channel do not have the ageless look:

-------
TITLE: Crown of Swords, CHAPTER: 1 - High Chasaline

Every Wise One who had come here from Cairhien was able to channel, though none had the ageless face. He supposed they used the One Power too seldom. Still, smooth-cheeked like Edarra or as leathery-faced as white-haired Sorilea, they carried themselves with a self-possession easily matching the Aes Sedai's. Graceful women for the most part, most of them tall, as nearly all Aiel were, they seemed to ignore the sisters completely.
-------

When Egwene met Amys, she thought Amys looked young, similar to an Aes Sedai's ageless look, but not the same:

-------
TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 23 - Beyond the Stone

Egwene stared, wide eyed. They could channel. At least, two of them could. Suddenly Amys's youthfully smooth features beneath that white hair leaped out at her for what they were, something very close to Aes Sedai agelessness. Moiraine was absolutely still. Egwene could almost hear her thoughts buzzing, though. This was plainly as much of a surprise to the Aes Sedai as to herself.
-------

Amys does not have the ageless look, but she does appear younger than her age because she has slowed. This is confirmed later on:

-------
TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 49 - Cold Rocks Hold

Amys studied him, those clear blue eyes as sharp as an Aes Sedai's. But then, she could channel; her face merely looked younger than it should, not ageless, but maybe she was as much Aes Sedai as an Aes Sedai. "That sounds a fine arrangement to me," she said. Aviendha opened her mouth, all bristling indignation-and closed it again, sullenly, when the Wise One shifted that stare to her. Perhaps the woman had thought her time with him was done, now they had reached Cold Rocks.
-------

"I'm almost sure that Elayne recognises the "youthful" appearance of the sea folk wind finder she meets in the same book (the shadow rising)."

Yeah, the Sea Folk Windfinders look younger than their actual ages because they've slowed, but they don't look ageless:

-------
TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 19 - The Wavedancer

The older woman, with gray touches in her black hair and fine wrinkles at the corners of her large brown eyes, inclined her head just as formally. Nevertheless, she seemed to be taking them in from head to foot, especially the Great Serpent ring each wore on her right hand. "I am Coine din Jubai Wild Winds, Sailmistress of Wavedancer. This is Jorin din Jubai White Wing, my sister of the blood and Windfinder of Wavedancer. There may be passage available, if it pleases the Light. The Light illumine you, and see you safe to your journey's end."

It was a surprise that the two were sisters. Elayne could see the resemblance, but Jorin looked much younger. She wished the Windfinder were the one they had to deal with; both women had the same reserve, but something about the Windfinder reminded her of Aviendha. It was absurd, of course. These women were no taller than she herself, their coloring could not have been more different from the Aiel woman's, and the only weapon either had in sight was the stout knife tucked in her sash, looking very workmanlike despite carvings and gold-wire inlays on the handle. But Elayne could not help feeling some similarity, between Jorin and Aviendha, anyway.
-------

Note that Jorin the Windfinder looks much younger than her sister Coine because Jorin can channel and Coine cannot.

"And aren't most of the kin seriously old? To the point that even with the aging they look like older ladies? I don't think that it has been shown that the rod causes the lack of aging."

Some of the Kin are much older than the oldest Aes Sedai, but none of the Kin have the ageless look:

-------
TITLE: Path of Daggers, CHAPTER: 3 - A Pleasant Ride

Elayne did not shout; she very carefully did not shout. "We will learn the truth eventually," she told Sareitha. She did not doubt the Kinswomenâ€™s word, but there had to be a reason why the Kinswomen looked neither ageless nor anything near the ages they claimed. If she could only puzzle it out. Something told her it was obvious, but nothing leaped up said what. "Eventually," she added firmly when the Brown opened her mouth again. "That will be enough, Sareitha." Sareitha nodded uncertainly and fell back. Not ten minutes later, Sibella replaced her.
-------

The Kin do not have the ageless look and they also look younger than their actual ages (because of slowing).

"I think it is implied that it is the Oath rod that stops Aes Sedai from living to crazy ages like they did in the Age of Legends."

Yes, the Oath Rod cuts the lifespan of Aes Sedai. The girls figure that out as a result of learning the ages of some of the Kinswomen:

-------
TITLE: Winterâ€™s Heart, CHAPTER: 10 - A Plan Succeeds

"Since you brought up the Kin, Egwene," Elayne said, "have you thought further on the Oath Rod?"

Egwene raised one hand as if to stop her, but her reply was calm and level. "There's no need to think further, Elayne. The Three Oaths, sworn on the Oath Rod, are what make us Aes Sedai. I didn't see that, at first, but I do, now. The very first day we have the Tower, I will swear the Three Oaths, on the Oath Rod."

"That's madness!" Nynaeve burst out, leaning forward in her chair. Surprisingly, still the same chair. And still the same dress. Very surprising. Her hands were fists resting on her lap. "You know what it does; the Kin are proof! How many Aes Sedai live past three hundred? Or reach it? And don't tell me I shouldn't talk about age. That's a ridiculous custom, and you know it. Egwene, Reanne was called Eldest because she was the oldest Kinswoman in Ebou Dar. The oldest anywhere is a woman called Aloisia Nemosni, an oil merchant in Tear. Egwene, she's nearly six ... hundred . . . years . . . old! When the Hall hears that, I wager they'll be ready to put the Oath Rod on a shelf."

"The Light knows three hundred years is a long time," Elayne put in, "but I can't say I'm happy myself at the prospect of perhaps cutting my life in half, Egwene. And what of the Oath Rod and your promise to the Kin? Reanne wants to be Aes Sedai, but what happens when she swears? What about Aloisia? Will she fall over dead? You can't ask them to swear, not knowing."
-------

But not only does the Oath Rod cut Aes Sedai lifespans, it also gives them the ageless look. If you recall, when Siuan and Leane were stilled (and the Oaths were removed as a result of the stilling), they looked young again. They no longer had the ageless look. The same thing happened to Amico when she was stilled by Egwene:

-------
TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 5 - Questioners

"Her face," Aviendha said abruptly. And surprisingly; she almost never spoke unless addressed by Moiraine or one of the others. "Amico's face. She does not have the look she did, as if the years had passed her by. Not as much as she did. Is that because she was... because she was stilled?" she finished in a breathless rush. She had picked up a few habits being so much around them. No woman of the Tower could speak of stilling without a chill.

Egwene moved down the table, to where she could see Amico's face from the side and yet stay out of Joiya's vision. Joiya's eyes always turned her stomach to a lump of ice.

Aviendha was right; that was the difference she herself had noticed and not understood. Amico looked young, perhaps younger than her years, but it was not quite the agelessness of Aes Sedai who had worked years with the One Power. "You have sharp eyes, Aviendha, but I don't know if this has anything to do with stilling. It must, though, I suppose. I don't know what else could cause it."
-------

I hope that clears things up. :)

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