innland revisited
by WinespringBrother: 2002-11-07 | Not yet rated
Some thoughts on the Finns, and their domain, their abilities and their motivations. This is a long post so bear with me. I have yet to see any
posts that theorize on the nature of Finnland so here goes.
Both types of Finns are able to interact with the Pattern in powerful ways, either by reading the weaves in the pattern, or changing them, in whatever ways the petitioner asks. This could be a symptom of either the inborn/learned abilities of the Finns, the nature of Finnland, or both. I think that the latter is the case.
The Snakes/Aelfinns act similarly to Min when she has viewings - they look over Mat's head, and then provide the answers to his questions (TSR, PB pg 252). This alludes to abilities that are inborn, as Moiraine proposes.
The Foxes/Eelfinns speak of need, and this may be related to using need in TAR/the unseen world to find things, such as the bowl of the winds. However, they are able to provide the need with tangible items in the real world, but set a price on them. Perhaps they use some form of the one power to create items, and exact a price for it as a sort of balance to the pattern. They are neither good nor evil, so all the benefits they provide are balanced with a price that must be paid.
Both Finns seem to have rare interactions with humans, yet enjoy them enough to help them with answers or wishes granted. According to Birgitte, they are so above humans as to not be good or evil but amoral. They seem so far removed from humanity as to be on a higher plane.
Some clues as to their location: According to Moiraine, questions touching the shadow have serious repercussions. This could indicate that the location is somehow related to the shadow's antithesis, the creator.
When Rand and Mat were in Finnland at the same time, the palace started trembling, but not right away, since they were both there long enough to travel the hallways to meet the Finns and get answers, and evacuate safely. But Moiraine didn't cause any of this, and besides, she placed the blame on the two of them being in there at the same time, and questioned Mat if Perrin was there also. Obviously this relates to their being ta'veren. Why would being ta'veren cause such calamity in this location? Well, ta'veren have the ability to alter the weave of the pattern (the great big loom in the sky, according to the Big White Book) and that ability happens without their conscious control. This leads to the conclusion that those doorways are some kind of bore that leads to an area near the actual wheel of time, and the earthquake was the 2 ta'veren having a warping effect on the wheel by being so close to it.
Feel free to rip it apart =)
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1
Tamyrlin: 2002-11-08
That's interesting, we are doing a large study on T'A'R right now and we should probably have done a section on the Finns. They have that direct connection with T'A'R, and as you said, there abilities are similar to Min's...almost more refined and organized. The "skins" the one was wearing does make them seem quite hostile to humans but they speak the Old Tongue (which may be something they were taught back when their world was first found by the creators of the red doorways.
I wonder what the balancing is about, it might suggest that they have nothing to do with the creator or the Dark One...I don't know, seems worthy of studying more in depth and looking up the quotes and trying to make some more direct connections. Good luck.
2
WinespringBrother: 2002-11-08
Perhaps those skins the Foxes wear aren't due to hostility on their part towards humans... remember, there is a price to pay, and they told Mat "wise to ask leavetaking when no price has been set..." - perhaps those skins are the prices paid by those who didn't ask leavetaking. Just a thought =)
3
WinespringBrother: 2002-11-28
It also seems to me that the Finns may be the most powerful beings in the Realm (since technically speaking, The Dark One isn't in the realm). Who else could easily hold a forsaken as powerful as Lanfear captive. Rand and Nynaeve did it to weaker forsaken, but it is likely they couldn't to that to Lanfear, even without the angreal that Moiraine took away from her before they visited the Eelfinn.
4
WinespringBrother: 2005-02-11
Thought I'd repost the theory in a more readable form, seeing as how Finnland is now being discussed in detail on the main board :)
Some thoughts on the Finns, and their domain, their abilities and their motivations. This is a long post so bear with me. I have yet to see any posts that theorize on the nature of Finnland so here goes.
Both types of Finns are able to interact with the Pattern in powerful ways, either by reading the weaves in the pattern, or changing them, in whatever ways the petitioner asks. This could be a sympton of either the inborn/learned abilities of the Finns, the nature of Finnland, or both. I think that the latter is the case.
The Snakes/Aelfinns act similarly to Min when she has viewings - they look over Mat's head, and then provide the answers to his questions (TSR, PB pg 252). This alludes to abilities that are inborn, as Moiraine proposes.
The Foxes/Eelfinns speak of need, and this may be related to using need in TAR/the unseen world to find things, such as the bowl of the winds. However, they are able to provide the need with tangible items in the real world, but set a price on them. Perhaps they use some form of the one power to create items, and exact a price for it as a sort of balance to the pattern. They are neither good nor evil, so all the benefits they provide are balanced with a price that must be paid.
Both Finns seem to have rare interactions with humans, yet enjoy them enough to help them with answers or wishes granted. According to Birgitte, they are so above humans as to not be good or evil but amoral. They seem so far removed from humanity as to be on a higher plane.
Some clues as to their location:
According to Moiraine, questions touching the shadow have serious repercussions. This could indicate that the location is somehow related to the shadow's antithesis, the creator.
When Rand and Mat were in Finnland at the same time, the palace started trembling, but not right away, since they were both there long enough to travel the hallways to meet the Finns and get answers, and evacuate safely. But Moiraine didn't cause any of this, and besides, she placed the blame on the two of them being in there at the same time, and questioned Mat if Perrin was there also. Obviously this relates to their being ta'veren. Why would being ta'veren cause such calamity in this location? Well, ta'veren have the ability to alter the weave of the pattern (the great big loom in the sky, according to the Big White Book) and that ability happens without their conscious control. This leads to the conclusion that those doorways are some kind of bore that leads to an area near the actual wheel of time, and the earthquake was the 2 ta'veren having a warping effect on the wheel by being so close to it.
One aspect of the theory which I originally omitted relates to the fact that the Finns speak the Old Tongue. Is this one of those Sci-Fi anomalies like in Star Trek where all the Aliens somehow speak English, or something more like Stargate where all the Aliens were seeded from Earth? If the Finns were originally from Randland, in another Age, it's possible they changed/evolved from being in this other world/dimension. They certainly seem to like meddling a lot (getting all excited at reading/pulling the threads of puppet ta'veren) which reminds me of those ivory tower folk, the Aes Sedai.
5
Jiana: 2005-09-08
I have some thoughts on the 'finns, or more accurately, the doorways it takes to get to them. But I didn't think the thoughts warranted their own theory, as I could just be slow in realizing something that everyone else knows already. (wouldn't be the first time.) This seemed to be the best place to post it. I have an idea that the 'finns reside in the world of dreams somewhere, and the twisted stone doorways are giant dream ter'angreal. One clue, which could be coincidental, is the fact that they are twisted, just like the ring Verin gave to Egwene. Maybe making ter'angreal attuned to dreams out of rock causes the twisting, I don't know. Does anyone remember any other ter'angreal that we have seen that are twisted that way? Or any dream ter'angreal, formerly rock, that were NOT twisted? The catch, though, is that I think these particular ter'angreal grant access to the world of dreams in the flesh, instead of just in your dreams. That could account for the quake when Rand and Mat were in there together... two ta'veren there in the flesh would be sure to cause some sort of reaction. Any feedback would be appreciated.
6
Traveller: 2005-09-09
Jiana: I really like what you're saying because I always presumed, like you, that the twisted thing with the ring, the doorways, etc, meant taking the user somewhere else, but I didn't think of Tel'aran'rhiod. I thought it was simply twisted, like you go down one pathway and end up somewhere you could not see before, kinda thing. I guess you are right, because as far as we know there are no other places, and Tel'aran'rhiod is such a diverse and variated place, that anything could happen or exist there. however I do think that it might be slightly different to the tel'aran'rhiod Egwene etc visit. Mat never mentions the light coming from all directions (although that could just be Mat being unobservant) and none of the objects flicker (although Mat does not really see any objects as such) and also because Mat's clothes never change to fit with his thoughts.
I hope this has helped you in some way, shape or form.
7
JakOShadows: 2005-09-09
Jiana: It is a good correlation you thought of. Maybe the finns actually reside in the tower of ghenji, hence the relation between tel'aran'rhiod and doorway ter'angreal. But it doesn't explain question related to the DO. It could be that the DO can mess around with what the finns do, so his name can't even be mentioned or else it will take away from their power.
8
Traveller: 2005-09-10
I thought that the Tower of Ghenjei does not only exist in dreams, because Mat & Rand see, and Bayle Domon describes a shining metal tower with no door in the same area as Perrin sees it in the Wolf dream. In that case it suggests that the ter'angreal might transport the traveller to the Tower of Ghenjei, or that the Tower is just another ter'angreal. Hmmm, I wonder...
9
William Seeker: 2005-09-11
Don't forget that the Finn's feed on emotions, feelings, memories, (at least the foxes do). Why? Were they once human? Perhaps they were transformed and trapped as some form of punishment.
10
Yaga Shura: 2005-09-11
"Maybe the finns actually reside in the tower of ghenji,"
That doesn't seem too likely. For one thing, you can see Finnland through the windows.
11
Anubis: 2005-09-12
**That doesn't seem too likely. For one thing, you can see Finnland through the windows.**
and for another, the tower doesnt have windows...
12
Yaga Shura: 2005-09-12
"Don't forget that the Finn's feed on emotions, feelings, memories, (at least the foxes do). Why? Were they once human? Perhaps they were transformed and trapped as some form of punishment. "
RJ confirmed that the Finns are not of human stock recently, at Dragon Con.
"WinespringBrother: Are the Finns from human stock?
Jordan: No." (you can find the original post this was given in on the Dragon Con 2005 section of the message boards, in the "Dragon Con Bokk Signing Reports" thread).
13
Jiana: 2005-09-12
Yes, you can see Finnland thru the windows. And no, the tower doesn't have windows. Not on the outside. But somehow there are windows on the inside. I always thought the outside that was seen through the windows was like the scapes in the world of dreams... no light, but light of a sort. I don't have the books in front of me, and so don't have direct quotes. And then there's this to think about: only wild animals appear in the world of dreams, unless you "imagine" a tame one into being. So what does that make the *finns, if in fact they live there?
14
Yaga Shura: 2005-09-13
"Yes, you can see Finnland thru the windows. And no, the tower doesn't have windows. Not on the outside. But somehow there are windows on the inside. "
Oh really? Windows on the inside? Well, uh...no, I don't think so. You have absolutely zero proof for this, other than entry to the Tower of Ghenji taking you to the Finns. There is also this quote from TSR, ch 28 "To the Tower of Ghenjei"
~The Tower? It is a doorway, archer, to the realms of the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn~ (Birgitte, to Perrin, in TAR)
The tower itself is the doorway, much like the doorway ter'angreal that the others used. I see no reason to believe that the Tower could be where they live.
"I always thought the outside that was seen through the windows was like the scapes in the world of dreams... no light, but light of a sort. I don't have the books in front of me, and so don't have direct quotes. And then there's this to think about: only wild animals appear in the world of dreams, unless you "imagine" a tame one into being. So what does that make the *finns, if in fact they live there?"
The Finns do not live in the World of Dreams. They inhabit a parallel world. See these interview quotes (the most important ones are bolded):
"Questions WineSpringBrother Asked at Book Signing, 9/3/05:
WinespringBrother: Do the Finns inhabit a perpendicular world?
Jordan: No, it is a parallel world.
WinespringBrother: Does the physical location of the world of Finns have anything to do with the bells ringing when the ta'veren were in together?
Jordan: No.
WinespringBrother: Have the Finns existed as long as the Wheel?
Jordan: Yes.
WinespringBrother: Do they have souls?
Jordan: Yes.
WinespringBrother: Are the Finns from human stock?
Jordan: No.
WinespringBrother: Did they originate in their current location?
Jordan: Yes.
WinespringBrother: Are they related to T'A'R or do they control T'A'R?
Jordan: No."
15
Kantuna: 2005-09-13
Tame would be among one of the worst words to describe the 'Finns - right up there with "Sane" and "Kind." =)
What are the 'Finns? I don't think that they're imagined at all, or dreamed, or anything like that. MAybe they are permentant residents. In fact, maybe they are what happens if you stay in the world of dreams fr too long - they went through one of the ter'angreals and found nothing there, so decided to build there. Years later they turned into what they are now. Perhaps they were literally snakes and foxes who strayed through the ter'angreal and "Created" a civilisation with their thoughts: "I wonder what it'd be like to talk?..."
Anyhow, back on track.
I think that the 'Finns permenant residency may have lent them special powers unique to the world of dreams. For instance, being able to answer any question (Some kind of Dreaming?) or granting any wish (You want protection from the power? I'll just think of this medallion it'll appear!)
Has anybody ever had a wish granted which directly affected the "Real" world? As far as I can see, everything came from inside the Ter'angreal.
I didn't mean to write this much, just got carried away. Could be a theory hidden in there somewhere...
16
Anubis: 2005-09-13
**So what does that make the *finns, if in fact they live there?**
People, or wild animals. Or a combination of the two. Or perhaps something else.
17
Yaga Shura: 2005-09-13
"In fact, maybe they are what happens if you stay in the world of dreams fr too long - they went through one of the ter'angreals and found nothing there, so decided to build there. Years later they turned into what they are now. Perhaps they were literally snakes and foxes who strayed through the ter'angreal and "Created" a civilisation with their thoughts: "I wonder what it'd be like to talk?..." "
I like loony theories as much as the next guy (maybe more depending on hwo the next guy is) but come on. The evidence contradicts this. It's given in the post above yours.
18
Astra-al: 2005-09-13
Another thought is, the markings on the doorways make me think of the markings on portal stones. As Winespringbrother found out directly from RJ they live in a parallel world. Which would give relation to the portal stones. Thus, maybe there is a way to reach finnland via portalstones?
