Tamyrlin: 2002-11-27

I agree. The idea that Olver Cain could talk to Birgitte in T'A'R at the same time that Olver was alive...yet be Olver, is absolutely ridiculous. Pushing Birgitte out of T'A'R wasn't supposed to happen, yet for sure they will get together if the Pattern has something to do with it...but Gaidal is a baby now, no more than that. There is a myth going around the web that there is no such thing as time in T'A'R. Time passes, just not at the same speed, sometimes faster sometimes slower, but not in the dramatic speeds that would be required for Gaidal/Olver believers. Remember everyone, T'A'R is a reflection of the real world.

pointyman: 2002-11-28

While do not for one second think that Olver=Gaidal Cain, consider this: if Cain was spun out to be born, unlike Birgitte who was ripped out, what happens if the horn is sounded to call forth the Heroes? I suspect that Birgitte will no longer be subject to it's call, but what about Cain? Surely his heroic deeds of the past will still tie him to the horn even though he has been incarnated? If this is the case, is it not possible that the horn/T'A'R retains the original 'soul' of Gaidal Cain while causing the 'essence' of him to be reborn into the world?

Tamyrlin: 2002-11-28

No. Lews Therin is the perfect example. He wasn't riding with the Heroes when Mat blew the horn. Gaidal talks to Rand/Lews, but he wasn't called forth to be with them. The horn calls the dead heroes, not the living, right?

Dedicated Gregor: 2002-11-28

Actually, i think that Rand's situation with LTT can be apllied to this case, but i'm only making a guess here. For all the one-soulers out there, and the two-soulers also... Rand didn't start hearing Lews Therin's thoughts and having his memories until when? This point is somewhat debateable, but his general age was about 18-19 at the time, right? So does that mean that Lews Therin was sitting in Rand's head doing nothing for almost 20 years? Maybe he was in T'A'R.

This might make sense with Gaidal Cain. See, Olver (or whoever is the rebirth of Cain) grows up as a young boy, while Gaidal Cain sits in T'A'R with Birgitte. This next part is messy because of the way that T'A'R distorts time... but at some point Gaidal Cain leaves to become a part of (Olver) and become one person, the reborn hero.

This is a somewhat skethcy theory, but it makes sense. Mat's situation might also be similar, though that is a very unique situation in and of itself. Mat aslo didn't start having memories of his past life until he was 19-20. However, he only recieved those memories because of the Finns. However, wouldn't Mat still have been the rebirth of all those souls even if he didn't have their memories?

So maybe... the more the reborn person acts like the Hero, the sooner they actrually become that hero. So, since Olver is with the Band and Mat, learning skills and swordsmanship, maybe he's becoming more and more like Gaidal Cain, until Cain leaves T'A'R and they become one person.

Tamyrlin: 2002-11-28

No, it can't. C'mon guys, we are trying to hard to make this work. :) And like usual, there is a quote to negate it. "I cannot, Nynaeve. I cannot touch the world of flesh unless the Horn calls me again. Or else the Wheel weaves me out. If it did this moment, you would find only an infant mewling at her mother's breast. As for Falme, the Horn had called us; we were not there as you were, in the flesh."

As Birgitte says, when the wheel weaves her out, you would find a baby...in other words, Heroes are reborn, not just stuffed into bodies later in life. One soul, one body.

lewstherin80: 2002-12-04

I must disagree. I believe that Olver is Gaidal Cain and I believe that Birgitte knows this. Before she was ripped out of the World of Dreams, she said that she had a feeling that she was going to be pushed out of the world again, and that it would only be a matter of time. Gaidal Cain has always been older than her and if she was to be born around the time she was ripped out, then Gaidal Cain would be much older, about the same age as Olver. Remember that heroes are not born and reborn as the rest of the world. What applies to them may not apply to others. Remember also that the World of Dreams is not set in this world, but a unity of all worlds and all possibilities. Who is to say that we are born in all of these worlds and at the same time. Different worlds means different variations. If even one Gaidal Cain wasn't spun out yet in these possible worlds then wouldn't he still exist as a hero waiting to be reborn in the World Dreams? Just a thought.

MeroTZ: 2002-12-04

Isn't it possible, that Birgitte, who has admitted that she has forgotten most of her past lives, is in this case very very wrong?

She herself says that she is ALWAYS born after Gaidal, yet Min's viewing contradicts this saying that the man she is tied to is sometimes younger and sometimes older, but always the same man.

Also, isn't it within the realm of possibility that the Wheel may have many ways of 'spinning out' its Hero's? Did you ever wonder why Birgitte helped Nynaeve and Elayne in the first place? I believe it may be possible that the Wheel 'spun her out' without her knowledge, direct into TAR so that she could actually affect the outcome of the coming fight with the shadow.

Feel free to correct any glaring errors I may have made, I'm just now re-reading the series for book 10. Just thought that this might be something to consider.

Tamyrlin: 2002-12-04

Sure, in the end, Jordan can do whatever he wants to do. He can explain it away if he would like...but it isn't Birgitte saying those things...it is Jordan. Therefore, why would he have Birgitte tell us that if the Wheel spun her into this Age, they would find a suckling baby? Why waste the paper he wrote it on, especially from a "godlike" character with the knowledge of a Hero and hundreds if not thousands of lives she has lived, if he wasn't trying to teach us something about how T'A'R works and how the Wheel interacts with Heroes. Sure, Gaidal could somehow, in some grand paradox, be Olver...but, it just isn't likely. :)

Callandor: 2002-12-11

If it isnt possible then why is Brigitte looking at ugly little boys? Why did she get along SO well with Olver after he was basically terrified of her at the beginning? Remember the stories. Cain and Bridgette NEVER fell in love at first sight it took time. Fits kinda well with that situation dont you think?

Therilon: 2002-12-12

Callandor, first I think that it is ALMOST never, not never, and that Birgitte has a warped view of time, since she lived in TAR. (thanks Tamrylin).

"The first terrible assumption most of you Gaidal apologists are making is that Birgitte has a sense of "real time." I would wholeheartedly agree that her knowledge about herself in T'A'R and her previous lives is sane, and authoritative. But you are suggesting that her perception of time as related to the real world is somehow definitive. It's not. She hasn't seen Gaidal in a while, so she would assume he was born, and possibly a few years old, like, "how the hell would I know how old he is, all I know is I am born after he is, and he has been born, maybe he is even a kid by now.""

Tamyrlin

I think that the pattern works in a sublter way than replacing a soul. TAR's time does flow slower, but a point in the 'real' world directly correspond to a point in TAR. I think that a good proof for that is the fact that Egwene and the other Sisters were looking in TAR for proof of Elaida's guilt. The papers changed, since they were temporal, but they were papers found in the study.

Darren: 2002-12-13

Umm, I don't really think that Olver is Gaidal Cain, but I'll argue the point. The key points for the AGAINST seem to be missing. I'll supply them. In GH, Gaidal answers the call of the horn and enters the world.. so anyone alive at that time has, apparently no possibility of being Gaidal Cain. Second, GC calls Birgitte away from helping Perrin before the Tower that goes off to the lands of the Af/Ef. Therilon is right to provide the last dating of his apparition in TSR.

HOWEVER, what happens to the souls of heroes of the horn when they dream? Is it not possible that GC's appearances in T'A'R are only the dreaming self of his new incarnation, slowly fading into his new Self (and so making less and less appearances in T'A'R) ?

I think so. I DON'T think GC could have been reborn until after Falme, well for a couple of reasons. As to this argument, his manifestation at Falme is a noumenous manifestation. He steps out of T'A'R. Even though this is under the aegis of the Horn, the fact remains, this is GC in his entirety. On a side note, it seems likely that Mat blowing the Horn called the Heroes back in more ways than one. (And let's put to rest the idea that Mat is Hawkwing reborn. Hawkwing spoke to Mat in GH, and Mat himself once he got his memories back remembers serving and fighting Hawkwing in different lives, but never BEING)

To return to the issue at hand however, is not GC's last couple of T'A'R appearances also marked by a haziness on GC's part? This may be the difference between being there as a Dream Self, or being there in the Flesh.

P.S. Birgitte pays more attention to Olver because he will grow into precisely the sort of man she likes. Haven't you ever noticed that all women do that?

Callandor: 2002-12-18

Another point is to how Mat cant be Hawkwing is that Hawkwing use his sword Justice while Mat favors quaterstaffs and his Asendarei(sp).

Dragons Shadow: 2002-12-20

Just a thought, if TAR is in a way the ULTIMATE dream, and ANYTHING is possible in a dream, then why can't GC have been gone from TAR for a while (Birgitte doesn't even know EXACTLY how long)and have been born actually 7 - 8 YEARS earlier in the REAL world. Time in TAR could very easily move backward. it could even move backwards only for GC. remember the aiel said that ANYTHING was possible in TAR. Case CLOSED. MOVE ON. It IS possible for GC to be Olver. It may not be true, but it IS possible.

Tamyrlin: 2002-12-20

The problem is you can't substantiate the idea through any quote in the book that Time can flow "backwards." Tel'aran'rhoid is a reflection of the real world, and while an hour might pass in T'A'R and three may pass in the Real World...time still passes, and sometimes passes more quickly. That is the only information we have that is factual. Therefore, I agree, the case is closed. :)

Therilon: 2002-12-20

Another piont Tamrylin that validates this theory is that Gaidal Cain showed up on Toman Head when Mat blew the Horn. A point to show that Mat isn't a known hero (Artur Hawking)is that Artur Hawking appeared from the horn. While Olver may be some other hero, he is in no way Gaidal Cain.

Dragon's Shadow, I think that the reason TAR cna't move backwards is, as Tamrylin said; TAR is a reflection of the real world. While it follows different rules, it still follows rules that are similar. I think that the laws of physics are applicable until someone changes them through force of will.

Daishan: 2002-12-21

In FOH, chapter "A New Name", Birgitte speaks to Elayne and says (quote) "This is not Tel' aran' rhiod. I remember everything. I am here as I am, and I remember. All is changed. Gaidal is out there, somewhere, an infant, or even a YOUNG BOY." (caps added by yours truly) Earlier on, in chapter "Meetings", Birgitte comments to Nynaeve while still in T'A'R (quote) "Time here is not like time in the waking world. I met you here last ten days gone, as it seems to me, and Elayne only a day before. What was is for you?" Nynaeve: "Four days and three." Birgitte: "You see, Nynaeve? The flow of time here can shift in larger ways, too. It might be months before I am born again, or days. Here, for me. In the waking world it could be years yet before my birth."

These two quotes for me provide enough evidence for the kind of time-shifting Olver/Cain would need. I'm not saying I think Olver is Cain, but taking these two quotes into account, it could be possible. The second quote I mentioned is actually the most direct quote in the whole series about the time-shifting in T'A'R. I'm really surprised nobody brought it up yet. Birgitte is actually speaking of DAYS in T'A'R being possibly YEARS in the real world (or vice versa of course).

In Yo Face. ;-)

Therilon: 2002-12-22

The thing to remember is that Birgitte may be talking about percieved time, not actual time. It may SEEM like it to her, but I do not think that years could go by. For the sake of arguement, say that Birgitte would be spun out in two days in TRW. It may seem like two years to her, but only two days actually would have passed.

"as it seems to me" was part of your quote.

Also, another point of theory, it doesn't seem like time moves backwards in Jordans books. he could, of course, but that would take away continuity and reader faith. Assuming that time always moves forward (DO too), then if Cain is seen in TAR in TSR, then he should not bee older than about one and a half years.

"In Yo Face. ;-)"

Callandor: 2002-12-22

Thank you Daishan. Gives lots of reason for Bridgette to be looking at the young ugly guys. :-)

: 2002-12-26

GRMBL....

I really don't believe that Olver is Gaidal myself, but I think the quotes are very suspicious. Sharp reading, Therilon, about the "seems to me". Didn't put much thought into that part. Damn these series are just a bit to "deep" sometimes. English isn't my native language so I get all the words, but sometimes not the submeanings.

@#$%!!!

In my face ;-)

Daishan: 2003-01-07

One more thing; when Mat first meets Olver, he estimates Olver's age at 6 or 7 or so. Olver says "I'm 9!" and Mat thinks "9? He might be.". But that's a "might" from Mat's part. I think Olver IS actually 6 or 7 when Mat meets him. And although it's probably a stretch, I still believe that 6 years timeshifting might be possible through T'A'R (I said "might". lol). After rereading this thread I really believe it's possible. Although it's very likely a RAFO issue again...

Daishan: 2003-01-07

Again one more thing. :-)

Since I'm not native English I'm not a hundred percent sure on the definition of "infant". That's, like, up until 2 years or so, right?

Therilon: 2003-01-08

Daishan, one problem with your theory. Some kids just grow slowly. I know someone that is 17, but is only about 4 feet 5 or so. Olver just might be short. And, how would he be able to shift six years. even if you were only 6, wouldn't you know that 6 years had gone by without you growing. How would TAR be able to shift you, anyways. Just curious.

And, an infant depends on the context. it can mean a two year old, but it is more likely to mean a new-born.

Daishan: 2003-01-08

As opposed to Olver being small for his age, I would rather say that he wants to be seen tougher than he really is, and therefore lies about his age. But we'll probably never find out who's right about that one. I also agree that the time-shifting part is paradoxical; how could Cain be Olver if Cain only left T'A'R a year ago, right? I'm having quite a hard time with this myself, and actually I'm not a "Cain=Olver"-believer. So what are we really talking about :-)

No, I think the real issue is the nature of T'A'R. Despite the study that was recently posted, I still think we haven't seen all facets. Who can say how T'A'R might operate with some of the Heroes of the Horn... Although I will give you that the timelines are hopelessly mismatched, I think T'A'R might be deeper than we think, and that somehow, paradoxically as it may be, this timeshifting could be possible.

The quotes certainly imply a lot, and I'm not a hundred percent with you on the "seems to me" part...

Probably a RAFO. Or god forbid a RASNFO (Read And Still Never Find Out)

SkullOne: 2003-01-10

I'm a firm believer that Olver IS Gaidal Cain. Alot of people are stating how time is different in the dream world because of Birgitte's quote. Which is true but I believe Olver is Gaidal Cain for another reason. I due remember reading this but I do not have a quote (but I'm looking). Thom has said that the Heroes of the Horn are spun out but sometimes they take over a person. Using this as a base to my theory, look at Olver. Ask these questions to yourself...When was Olver found in respect to Gaidal Cains last appearance in the dream world & what happened to Olver's parents? Olver was found AFTER Gaidal talked to Birgitte in the dream world and Olver's parents are gone. When Birgitte was ripped from the dream world & healed/bonded she stated that Gaidal is out there..."an infant or a young boy." What better young boy to take possession over than that of one without parents or any ties? That is why I believe Olver is Gaidal Cain.

Damon: 2003-01-10

The theory that Gaildal Cain can't be more than 1 year old has one flaw to it that everyone so far has over looked. And that is that in FoH Brigitte says on page 575 "Gaidal is out there, somewhere, an infant, or even a young boy." The fact that she says he could be a young boy helps support the theory that Olver could be Gaildal Cain

Daishan: 2003-01-11

Look a few posts up at my post. There's another quote about T'A'R that might inspire your position.

Darren: 2003-01-11

Man, does no one even READ the above posts. Let's stop reiterating. It's bad enough that RJ spends all of CoT prevaricating, we shouldn't do the same.

Therilon: 2003-01-12

First, if you reply, read the above quotes first. Damon, Daishan already mentioned that, and I think that I disproved it.

Daishan, about your post on the 8th, if Olver wanted to seem tougher, wouldn't he say that he is younger to elicit more sympathy?

Skullone, my reply to your theory is that Birgitte in that quote was saying that "oh, who cares. Gaidal could be one or he could be twenty. Remember, the Heroes do not remember anything of their past lives, so they would need to learn everything all over again. If you can find that quote that would be great, but there is not much that the people in the material world know about TAR, and how heroes are reborn.

Therilon: 2003-01-20

Someone appears to have mentioned this in a signing, and the answer was:

"RJ: No. I didn't really think that this would last as long as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason for being there besides being a red herring, though."

Therilon: 2003-01-20

Sorry, forgot this as I was writing the other post.

"Q: He's too old.

RJ: Yes. Time in TAR and the real world run at different rates, but it never runs backwards. You may spend an hour in TAR, and a day has passed when you get back, or you may spend a day, and an hour has passed when you get back, but you'll never go in on Tuesday and come back on Monday.

Sorry about that.

Theron: 2003-02-10

I would like to remind everyone of something (if it was already mentioned, i'm sorry but it still bears repeating). TAR is a reflection of ALL the possible worlds, not just the one in which the books take place. This means that time could be stretched out in the necessary quantities for Olver to be G. Cain.

Theron: 2003-02-10

This is a direct quote by Elder Haman explaining The Creator, The Dark One, and Time. This is only part of it, and I recomend that you go and read the whole issue for a more complete understanding.

"Now, back to the World of Dreams/Unseen World. We know from Verin that this place exists in all worlds. She also says there is one Creator and one Dark One for all the worlds. From implication, the World of Dreams is the same place for all the mirror worlds. Now the Creator and the Dark One are both outside time, (though on different sides of the Wheel). This suggests that the World of Dreams may also be outside time- explaining why "time moves differently." (Note this would allow Oliver to be Gaidal Cain). However, other things such as reflections of the real world changing with time implies the opposite. (BTW ever notice that Egwene appears to see changes in the reflection of the Two Rivers before the changes are made? It is possible to reconcile the differences, but it's tricky). My theory is that the World of Dreams is connecting place between time and non-time. Thus that is were souls go to await rebirth. I also think that's how the Creator inflences the Pattern, he selects which souls, (particularly the Heros), are spun out, where, and when."

Read his responces under : The Creator, The Dark One, and Time

Therilon: 2003-02-11

Theron, those were good points that you raised, but they were mentioned before. It's a good idea to read all of the responses first.

Now for the rant.

*ahem* *takes deep breath*

Tamrylin said, "The problem is you can't substantiate the idea through any quote in the book that Time can flow "backwards." Tel'aran'rhoid is a reflection of the real world, and while an hour might pass in T'A'R and three may pass in the Real World."

I said, "Another piont Tamrylin that validates this theory is that Gaidal Cain showed up on Toman Head when Mat blew the Horn. A point to show that Mat isn't a known hero (Artur Hawking)is that Artur Hawking appeared from the horn. While Olver may be some other hero, he is in no way Gaidal Cain."

The relevent quote was, "Time here is not like time in the waking world. I met you here last ten days gone, as it seems to me, and Elayne only a day before. What was is for you?" Nynaeve: "Four days and three."

My response to that was,"The thing to remember is that Birgitte may be talking about perceived time, not actual time. It may SEEM like it to her, but I do not think that years could go by. For the sake of arguement, say that Birgitte would be spun out in two days in TRW. It may seem like two years to her, but only two days actually would have passed.

"as it seems to me" was part of your quote. Also, another point of theory, it doesn't seem like time moves backwards in Jordans books. he could, of course, but that would take away continuity and reader faith. Assuming that time always moves forward (DO too), then if Cain is seen in TAR in TSR, then he should not bee older than about one and a half years."

Those are good points you raised and thank you for adding posts to my theory :). For the coup de grace, Jordan himself mentioned that Olver was not Gaidal Cain. I'm sorry if inadvertantly (sp) insulted you. (BTW, did you get your handle from my name?)

Tigraine: 2003-02-11

Here's a little gem nestled into one of my other posts that I thought might fit this discussion. I really would love to find a way to make Olver none other than Gaidal Cain, yet for all of the many posts above, I have to say that I am in the Gaidal does not equal Olver camp for now. Oh, and here's that little gem:

The Shadow Rising, "Need"

------------------------------------

[Gaidal Cain] "When the Horn calls us, we will fight. When the Wheel weaves us, we will fight. Not until then!" He glowered at her. "Have you forgotten what Moghedien promised you when we followed Lews Therin? I saw her, Birgitte. SHE WILL KNOW YOU HERE."



Nynaeve shivered, fear warring with the anger that let her contain the Power. Moghedien. Lanfear. This woman spoke so casually of the Forsaken. "Birgitte, what did Moghedien promise you?"

"SHE KNEW WHAT I WAS, EVEN THOUGHT I DID NOT. HOW, I DO NOT KNOW." Birgitte glanced at cain; he appeared absorbed in his sword, but she lowered her voice anyway. "She promised to make me weep alone for as long as the Wheel turns. She said it as a fact that simply had not happened yet."

(Emphasis in caps is mine)

So, if Moghedien has a way of seeing Reborn Heroes even when they don't know it themselves.... maybe we'll just have to wait until Olver gets near Moghedien (if he ever does) and watch for her reaction. Perhaps its yet another lost Talent. Seeing ta'veren we've heard of, but what about seeing Heroes...

Theron: 2003-02-11

That is certianly a viable possiblity Tigraine. However, If she can do this, and Olver is not G. Cain, Moghedien could have simply knocked of the young G. Cain in the crib in modern times. That would explain why we have yet to meet Gaidal Cain (unless he is Olver), and it would pat way furfill her promise to Birgitte about making her weep alone. This is, of course, assuming Moghedien can see reborn heroes.

Daishan: 2003-02-16

I do like another possibility in those quotes, Tigraine; Cain says that they will fight when the wheel weaves them or when the horn calls them. He doesn't exclude the possibility that the horn will blow while they're still infants. What would happen?

Callandor: 2003-02-16

Nothing would happen. His soul has been reborn, just like Rand being LTT reborn. At Falme the Horn was sounded and LTT didnt show because he was reborn as Rand. So Cain wouldn't come if he was reborn like he should be.

DeathKnight: 2003-02-17

Since her bind to world of dreams has been broken. And she has been forcefully spit out. When Gaidal cain is reborn as a child and when its Birgitte time to be reborn she might just die and be reborn as a baby. Would make a sad twist at the end of the books.

Daishan: 2003-02-20

I'm still not sure if LTT is a Hero of the Horn, Callandor.

The strongest evidence for that theory seems to be that Artur Hawkwing (and others) state that they have fought together before. But I believe that if LTT fights every "Last Battle" then he might also use the Horn everytime, and therefore also fights with Hawkwing every time. To me, you have "regular people", Heroes of the Horn, and the Dragon. Those three don't mix, IMO. But, like I said, that's a matter of opinion...

Therilon: 2003-02-20

Deathknight, the problem with that is that Birgitte is already spun out in the pattern. She is flesh and blood now, and if she dies, she goes back to T'A'R.

Callandor: 2003-02-20

This is a responce by Tamyrlin in Are there any REAL voices in Rand's head?:

These following passages make it obvious that Lews Therin Telamon is a Hero of the Horn.

TITLE: Great Hunt

CHAPTER: 47 - The Grave Is No Bar to My Call

"To his surprise, several of the small host behind Artur Hawkwing chuckled, and Birgitte, testing her bowstring, laughed. "You always choose women who cause you trouble, Lews Therin." It had a fond sound, as between old friends."

TITLE: Great Hunt

CHAPTER: 47 - The Grave Is No Bar to My Call

"Justice shone like a mirror in Artur Hawkwing's gauntleted fist. "I have fought by your side times beyond number, Lews Therin, and faced you as many more. The Wheel spins us out for its purposes, not ours, to serve the Pattern. I know you, if you do not know yourself."

LTT is a Hero of the Horn thats fact.

Daishan: 2003-02-21

I think the general opinion is that Birgitte was "thrown" out of T'A'R, therefore not "spun" out, and because of that her connection to T'A'R is broken. She's not a Hero of the Horn anymore. Or rather, she is, but she's not bound to the Wheel anymore and won't be reborn as a Hero.

Callandor: 2003-02-21

In TGH, when the Horn is sounded Hawkwing says that the Wheel always adds to their number (adding more Heroes). So if Birgitte is truely gone as a Hero, which I personally dont believe, then all she would have to do is another Heroic thing and shes brought back as that time being another Hero. This might take into acount her loss of memory, but I still think shes attacked to the TAR if she were to die.

Gird: 2003-02-22

Callandor I'm obviously a disbeliever of LTT being a Hero of the Horn. Does it say that he is in that text? I can't see it. The champion of the light cannot be bound to the horn, the heroes are there to balance the wheel, LTT is there to battle the DO and is acting as the Creators representant whilst the wheel is acting to stay whole. If LTT was bound they could just blow the horn and they would have a immortal LTT to battle the DO. How hard can it be for an immortal hero to win?

Callandor: 2003-02-22

Look at how the Heroes have to take orders when the Horn is sounded at Falme. LTT would have to be ordered to stop the DO and he would've been reborn at that time anyway so he wouldn't be called by the Horn because he was reborn.

silverwolf: 2003-02-22

I'm responding to a lot of different posts, so read the whole thing before you decide to rip it apart.

First, everyone seems to believe that time is constant throughout TAR; I'm not saying that you think it moves at a constant rate, but rather that you think that if one part of TAR is moving fast/slow, it all is. We haven't seen any evidence of this; rather, it seems like the timing of events depends solely on the POV of the person seeing them (i.e.: the papers on Elaida's desk have nothing to do with Gaidal Cain, whether or not you believe he is Olver, so quit citing them for "evidence").

Secondly, the wheel spins out the heroes for a purpose; with TG approaching, it's logical to assume that any hero spun out will play a significant role in it. I don't think that an infant or a toddler could have a huge influence on the Last Battle, so I think that Gaidal Cain has to be over the age of one. I'm not saying that Gaidal is Olver, but I don't think that there is anything to disprove the theory.

Last, Lews Therin is a hero of the horn. Reread TGH if you don't belive me. Hawkwing acknowledges Rand as a hero of the horn.

1111: 2003-02-23

There is no proof in your passages that the Dragon is a Hero of the Horn.

Your first quote says that they've met him many times before. That would be pretty obvious, as they've fought TG for or against him many times before when the horn was sounded.

The second quote is just as obvious. Whether the man who sounded the horn was with or against the Dragon determines if they're on his side or on the other. And another thing: How could they fight against him if he was a Hero of the Horn?

Janstince: 2003-02-23

There are several problems.

1) The time sense of TAR is screwed up. Birgitte says it may be a week or a day or a month before the Wheel spins her out again, but that Cain may be up to 10 years older. You can say time is screwed up, but 11 days passed for 7 in the real world, and 1 month at anything remotely close to that ratio would not equal 10 years.

2) Mat does not possess all those other souls, i believe. He has past memories to replace his own, but he is still Mat Cauthon, because he always acts like Mat Cauthon. Besides, a lot of those "souls" are from exactly the same time. Some memories he fought with Hawkwing, some against. I'm not sure if anyone in his head had a battle against anyone else in there, but the implication is there.

One point I would like to address, however, is that Cain must have been spun out at the same time Mat got all those memories. Not only that, Mat gains Birgitte's respect and she gains his not too long after meeting, but fairly long. A few months when the world is gonna end in a year. Sure, Mat is tied to Tuon, but it's a thought. He only has to marry Tuon, who knows what customs go on in Seanchan anyway.

Janstince: 2003-02-23

Sorry about this, but there is something i forgot to make as an addendum. Let's assume that if Birgitte dies, she will go back into TAR, and therefore will meet up with Gaidal Cain again. Or will she? Moghedien did make a promise, and perhaps she went after Cain first, and that is why Birgitte hasn't seen him in a while. He isn't reborn, he's been balefired or just destroyed in TAR in some way that he can't come back, ever, and we'll never hear from him again. That sounds more plausible to me than all these "mights" and "maybes", but then again, that's just me.

silverwolf: 2003-03-08

Heros of the horn can fight against each other while in the flesh--Hawkwing states "the wheel weaves us out for its purposes, not our own." This means that heros can be forced by the pattern to fight against each other.

Korell: 2003-03-27

just thought i would bring up a few plausable things in this whole slew of posts

1. being that LTT was there when the horn was blown EG. Rand i know that is a strech but he was there in some respect he did not follow the commands of Mat but none the less Rand was there and Rand is LTT.

2. anything is possible to be over looked Jordan is notorious for hiding the truth right in front of our noses GC could be Oliver for many of the reasons stated above or he could not be Oliver for others the fact of the matter is only RJ knows and if the evidence is there we only know to speculate its in our nature

3. Birgeete never said anyting about Moggy knowing WHO she was she said she knew "WHAT" she was there is a diffrence3 therefore i dont think that gives any evidence that she would know a hero of the horn from a jack in the box in the real world

overall this is one of those wait and see topics as Daishan said this could very well be a RAFO or RASNFO...also the idea that Moggy could have wacked GC already is very plausable because we have not seen him in a while but if she did maybe Oliver will replace GC i mean if LTT was balefired do you not think the Creator would make himself a new champion?? somthing to think on perhaps.

Jiana: 2003-03-27

Light, but it nearly drove me mad to read all of this! (But I'll admit I enjoyed every second!) I am in the Cain does not equal Olver camp.... HOWEVER.... SkullOne mentioned something Thom said about Heroes being able to take over a living body. Now, I take that for fact, but I don't think the Pattern would allow that unless the circumstances were dire, indeed. Also, I do not think LTT is a Hero of the Horn, just this poor schmuck who is continually reborn to be the scapegoat of mankind, allbeit he does do very heroic things. As for Birgitte.... Unless she does something heroic, she WILL NOT be bound to the Wheel again after her death. Moghedien's ripping her out took care of that. Back to the quote from Thom, though... considering that a Hero could take over a living body, we may as well speculate that Uno is Gaidal Cain while we speculate if Olver is. One of you posted that the reborn Hero would have to relearn everything... I don't know if any of you have read anything on astral projection (or possibly read Tale of the Body Thief), but if a soul were to take over a living body, there would be a sort of war within that body between the two souls, while the invading soul reads everything it needs to know from the original inhabitant. Sorry if that is blather, but I have been awake for awhile and thinking about this too much!

Elan Morin Tedronai: 2003-03-28

I think we need to take a moment to stop and take a look at the series as a whole here - forget trying to prove wether or not Olver is GC or not.

RJ very rarely writes something important like Cain being spun into the Wheel without actually implementing on it.

So ask yourselves this, if Olver isn't GC then who is? Do you really beleive RJ would let Mog kill an infant Hero of the Horn without at least teasing us with the idea in text?

Think about it and it does make sense, even if it is vague.

Therilon: 2003-03-28

Well, Korell,

1) Do we know that only Rand has been spun out of the pattern at this point in time? We do not, and therefore cannot conclude that blowing the horn summons ALL of the heroes in existance, spun out or not.

2) Well, RJ himself said that Gaidal Cain was not Olver. In addition, he said that time cannot flow backwards in TAR. Time can flow slower though, but never backwards, thus taking out the possibility that while 4 months ago birgitte talked to gaidal cain, time flowed backwards, and gaidal cain was born a month ago. For the idea that the soul of GC took over Olver, such an important event would have certainly been forshadowed and have been an important part of the series.

Therilon: 2003-03-29

Ah, defending my prized theory ~rubs hands together~ :)

Elan Morin Tedronaim,

1) "So ask yourselves this, if Olver isn't GC then who is? Do you really beleive RJ would let Mog kill an infant Hero of the Horn without at least teasing us with the idea in text?"

Well, I happen to think that Moghedien was lying in that point in the book. She could have been lying in order to bring down thier hopes and to be able to capture them more easily.

I believe that Olver is Olver. A young, orphaned boy.

Jiana-

2) That was me about relearning everything :)

"Thom has said that the Heroes of the Horn are spun out but sometimes they take over a person"

I challenge anyone to find that quote. If it can be verified, and isn't rambling or obvious misinformation, then I will, well, renounce this theory.

"...but if a soul were to take over a living body, there would be a sort of war within that body between the two souls..."

Maybe that would happen. I expect it would be like what happened to Rand in the TAR fighting... rahvin... wasn't it?

Korell: 2003-03-29

Therilon,

You are correct there is no where that says that none of the other heros are spun out at the time and there is also nothing that says otherwise to the case as for the possabilities it is compleatly possible but we do know that the heros who have been mentioned in the books were there and not every hero has been named therfore making it impossable to know for sure however as has been stated many times when RJ writes somthing he does not do it for no reason what so ever thefore in this line of thinking there is nothing to credit or discredit the thoery....also GC could be dead because Moggy did say she would take him out to Birgeete and personally if moggy killed GC it would be in TAR not in the real world because that is not Moggys way.

Wyrohn Charin: 2003-04-03

This is an excellent theory (although I didn't read ALL of the replies but I found, somewhere in the depths of dragonmount's message boards that Robert Jordan stated in an interview at, I believe, a Barnes 'N Noble that, although Tel'aran'rhiod has a different sense of time than the real world, it cannot make time flow backward. Therefore, Gaidal Cain cannot be Olver and cannot be any younger than when we saw him last.

Rand-althor: 2003-04-16

For the person who said that Oliver could be because of the older-younger connection, the older is how Gaidal was is a past life (older than Birgitte would be) and the younger refers to the little kid who is only starting to learn to walk. The younger refers to this weaving, where she is older than gaidal, and the oler refers to past lives.

Therilon: 2003-04-18

A bit sleep deprived, eh, Rand? I think I get what you're saying, but it would be good it you could rephrase it. Every time I think I'm close to understanding it, I find that I've forgotten a word. :)

Rand-althor: 2003-04-19

basically what i was saying is the vision Min had of a man older, and a man younger, yet she knew they were the same. The older is Gaidal in a different life, where the wheel spins him out normally, then spins Birgitte out, making her be younger than him. The younger is now, when Gaidal was born normally and is young, but Birgitte was ripped out, so she is older than him. Hope I explained it better this time, I wrote the other one in the 30 secconds i had left at lunch, so i didnt have too much time to look it over

Pips: 2003-04-23

Burn me! Are you ALL forgetting Min's viewing?

"Auras danced around her and images flickered, more than Min had ever seen around anyone, thousands it seemed, cascading over one another... she was certain they indicated more adventures than a woman could have in one lifetime. Strangely, some were connected to an ugly man who was older than she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man."

Pips: 2003-04-23

Well, you didn't all forget x.x I missed a post. Anyway, that quote leaves 4 choices:

1) G.C will never show up in the series. Him and Birgitte will meet again off-text, or never.

2) G.C is yet to be introduced

3) We have met G.C, but he isn't Olver.

4) G.C is Olver.

Okay. 1 could happen, but seriousally, do you really think it would? I doubt 2, if there are only 2 books left I don't think there will be enough time to meet, introduce, figure out he's Cain, etc. etc.

3 - are there any -ugly- main characters that are men that we know? No.

4. Speaks for itself. It just makes the most sense.

melchizedek: 2003-04-25

OF COURSE OLVER IS GAIDAL CAIN!

The fact that is he alive in Dreamworld in that narrative at some point is immaterial. The pattern doubtless "bestowing the mantle of Gaidal Cain" at the point when his mother dies... at that point, the circustances have chosen "this boy" to become Gaidal Cain, whereas before that he could have perhaps "gone into" a number of different people. All of his training by the Band is preparation for his future. But most importantly, RJ will want to reveal this fact plainly before the end of the series, and so it MUST be Olver for it to work for the Readers' sake... which drives the Wheel of RJ more than almost anything, I think.

The fact that Min Farshaw saw Bridget as sometimes older is a change to the pattern that has resulted from her being ripped out this time. From now on, she will sometimes be older than GC. Until now, she has always been younger. Duh.

Therilon: 2003-04-28

melchizedek, I think that there are is a flawed assumption in your reply.

First, the author, ROBERT JORDAN, said in an interview that Olver was NOT Gaidal Cain.

Here is the revelent quote in question:

"Q: Is Olver Gaidal Cain?

RJ: No. I didn't really think that this would last as long as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason for being there besides being a red herring, though.

Q: He's too old.

RJ: Yes. Time in TAR and the real world run at different rates, but it never runs backwards. You may spend anhour in TAR, and a day has passed when you get back, or you may spend a day, and an hour has passed when you get back, but you'll never go in on Tuesday and come back on

Monday."

This is from CoT Signing - Dayton, OH - 01/16/2003.

Mairan Sedai: 2003-04-28

Therilon: THANK YOU! I knew I had read that quote somewhere, but I couldn't find it...

All I have to add to that is a remark RJ made in an Amazon.com chat:

"What I consider the major story lines will be resolved. There will be a number of minor story lines that will not be resolved, for the simple reason that there is no point to any real world where everything is resolved."

So, it's entirely possible that we won't meet GC or even find out what happens to him.

Hydraan Sedai: 2003-04-29

I can only see two possibilities if Gaidal Cain *has* returned;

1) He is 1 year old ((Or less))

2) He was ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod as well as Birgitte

For 1), he is born normally, aging normally. This is an important point; Being a Hero does not make you grow/age 10 years ((eg. Olver)) within one year's time. So Gaidal is a baby; One of Elayne's, or Melaine's ((The Wise One; Did I get her name correct?)), or anyone else that we have seen pregnant or recently give birth.

For 2), we have to hope that he was ripped out near an Aes Sedai, because otherwise, he is dead.

Now, here is a theory ((This might belong in an ACoT thread though)); Rand and Min are now hiding in Tear. Merise and Cadsuane have noticed that Beldeine is upset over not having a Warder. Well, Min might read Beldeine, seeing an "ugly-man as a Warder". Tear is a pretty cool place; Gaidal might have been captured by Moghedian here, and ripped out, right on Beldeine's doorstep. They bond, Gaidal and Birgitte are both similar ages, and everything is good again.

A third possibility is that he is recently born, and an Aes Sedai intentionally speeds up his aging process, just for the Last Battle. Imagine if Aes Sedai made ALL kiddies into middle-aged, fit fighters. A huge explosion in the army ranks.

But I don't think Gaidal is Olver; He is either 1 year old, or an adult figure that we already know. Was there anything about Gaidal that makes you think of him straight away? Have we seen this anywhere yet?

Mashiara: 2003-04-29

"The dead can be reborn, or take a living body, and it is not something to speak of lightly."

--Thom Merrilin, tEotW, "Shadows Waiting"

There goes your theory! Bye bye!

Hydraan Sedai: 2003-04-30

That quote doesn't really discount what I said;

The dead can be reborn, but we don't know whether Gaidal is even alive yet. And IF he is alive, he has aged a maximum of one year if he was born normally, yet Olver is near 10.

The dead can take a living body, but why would a Hero of the Horn take the body of a 10 year old when he could take a fit, middle aged guy who has enough muscles and agility to handle two swords at once? To me, Olver doesn't seem like a kid who can *lift* two swords at once, let alone weild them effectively. And weilding two swords is the Gaidal Cain signature "thing".

As to Gaidal not even being introduced, well....*Shakes fist* He'd better be =P

You never know; The Gaidal who was called by the Horn may have been an imposter, good enough to fool Birgitte ;-)

Therilon: 2003-04-30

Thanks for replying to my theory, Mishiara.

Unfortunatly, this quote cannot be used to prove or disprove my theory for several reasons:

1) How in the name of the Light would Thom know about possesion, and taking over living bodies? He's a court bard turned gleeman, for Light's sake!

2) If they can take over living bodies, and if people know about it, that would imply that there is common knowledge about that, and also that the hero that's possesing retains his knowledge and memories, otherwise how would they know that he's been possed? Maybe it's just me, but I think that Olver doesn't really know the Old Tongue.

Mashiara: 2003-04-30

Dude, you guys, I'm not saying Gaidal Cain is Olver. I'm just saying that he isn't necessarily an infant. I'm not proposing to know who he is. He can't be Gaidal Cain because Birgitte mentions that she always hates Gaidal when she first meets him and then grows to love him. I don't think that exactly suits Olver. However, it would make sense that since this is a time of great need, Gaidal would be spun out into someone else's body. Like, maybe sort of the same way LTT and Rand coexist, except not as crazy. Or like there was some latent Gaidal who just began to manifest his Hero status.

And as for Thom knowing -- the guy is a friggin scholar of the Horn. He's told the tale like a million times and he really knows his legends. I think we can consider him about equal to a Brown sister where the Horn is concerned.

Therilon: 2003-05-01

"I'm not saying Gaidal Cain is Olver. I'm just saying that he isn't necessarily an infant."

And I think that you misunderstand my theory, Misiara. While on the surface it may seem to say that Gaidal Cain is Olver and offer proof, the fact is that it is saying the Gaidal Cain is not spun out into any body, it is impossible for him to possess a body, and for him to be spun out it would be as a baby.

"And as for Thom knowing -- the guy is a friggin scholar of the Horn. He's told the tale like a million times and he really knows his legends. I think we can consider him about equal to a Brown sister where the Horn is concerned."

If I say that mitochrondia are miniture forest and have fire breathing dragons living in them, does that make it true? Thom is a COURT BARD! NOT a Scholar. Remember, the AS live for hundreds of years. Compare this to a man that probably heard the tale when he was 10, and there seems to be no contest. If I tell the afformentioned tale 1,000,000 times, does that make it true? I think that a brown sister would easily be Thom's equal in the horn in any regard.

Mashiara: 2003-05-01

""Thom has said that the Heroes of the Horn are spun out but sometimes they take over a person"

I challenge anyone to find that quote. If it can be verified, and isn't rambling or obvious misinformation, then I will, well, renounce this theory."

Hee hee putting your foot in your mouth, Therilon? *shrug*

The fact of the matter is that I agree with Highbreaker's theory about how heroes are spun. Rand, Mat, Perrin did not become ta'veren until a few weeks before the start of the books, according to RJ. It is possible, then that a latent (possible) Gaidal Cain could become the real one. It would be no stranger than anything ta'veren do or bubbles of evil...just a bending in the pattern. Cain is probably ta'veren himself. It's not that much of a stretch at all. And since Tarmon Gai'don is coming soon, I doubt that there would be any reason for him to be spun out as a baby.

And furthermore, we have the Birgitte quote mentioning that he could be a young boy, not necessarily an infant. She knows how much time has passed in the real world since Gaidal disappeared. So if he is spun out, he isn't *necessarily* a baby. Certainly he could be, and that's the normal way things work, but it's not necessarily the way things are now.

Another possibility is that Moggy got him. I'm not ruling that out. We'll just have to see, won't we? But it's silly to say he must be an infant--which he very well may be--when there is contrary evidence.

"it is not something to speak of lightly" --Thom. Does this sound like someone is telling a story? Thom is a great bard, but he's not a liar...when he's not in Cairhien, at least. He has no reason to try to scare the boys needlessly when they're already being chased by Shadowspawn and Darkfriends. So it's pretty obvious he knows what he's talking about.

Mathwin: 2003-05-01

"And since Tarmon Gai'don is coming soon, I doubt that there would be any reason for him to be spun out as a baby."

I would like to mention that RJ has said that Gaidal Cain wasn't necessarily spun out for the Last Battle. There *is* a world after TG...it needs heroes too. Besides, the Pattern seemed to know that the Last Battle was coming...it spun out Rand, right? Why would it wait to spin out Gaidal Cain at the last minute if it wanted him to fight?

I don't think that quote necessarily refers to Heroes of the Horn, either. I don't have a copy of tEotW, but looking at the chapter summary for Shadow's Waiting online, it sort of looks like he is referring to the creatures in Shadar Logoth, rather than heroes. Mordeth took over Padan Fain...it makes sense. Or even servants of the DO, like Aran'gar and Osan'gar. If it's something not to be spoken of lightly, it's probably evil, huh?

Therilon: 2003-05-02

Mashiara: While you may believe Highbreaker's theory ( http://www.theoryland.com/theories.php?func=5&rec=101&theo=1179 ) I happen to not believe it. Why?

1) Mat begins spouting the Old Tongue because of his Old Blood. This is an ability that Moiraine mentions several times, along with several other AS. If you don't believe me, do a search on it. It's nothing to do with Heroes of the Horn as people other than him have the ability.

2) Tavereness is not connected to any soul. Being a taveren is an ability bestowed on you by the Pattern. While being Taverin may grant you luck (Mat) the ability does not always function this way. As you can be taveren and then have the ability taken away from you (Moiraine's quote.), the taveren-ness is unconnected to souls. I suggest that you look it up. Being taveren is given to you by the pattern to accomplish a specific goal. For Rand, it's to win the last battle; for Mat and Perrin, to help him.

3) 2-souls is false, unfortunatly. (RJ was wrong on that :) ) While I would love for it to be true, it won't be.

4) Olver isn't Gaidal Cain :p

Mishiara, could you explain the latent Gaidal Cain idea? As far as I knew, I thought that it wasn't possible to have latent heroes, you're spun out at birth AS the Hero in a new form.

As far as I knew, stories are lies.

Mathwin: Yes, I agree with you that Gaidal isn't nessecarily spun out, and that he won't be able to fight in the last battle.

Janstince: 2003-05-07

Perhaps this should go under another theory, or perhaps I should start a completely new one for this post. Maybe it shouldn't even be in this section. Otherwise known as, I don't want to bother looking for it because I only have a few minutes :/.

Anyway, about this time and TAR thing. I'm confused (as I seem to say more times in a day than I care to count). For instance, time cannot flow backward in TAR, but it can flow faster or slower. So, for instance, take the whole Birgitte-Elayne conversation I mentioned in my last post (I think it's about halfway up the page). I said something along these lines: time can flow 10 days to 1, or 1 to 10. However, I wasn't really paying attention then, or else Douglas Adams is really screwing with my mind now, but I just thought of something. Birgitte says something like "it could be MONTHS before I'm born again." Something along those lines, caps provided by me. But the gist of this is that it can be as many as ten years in the real world (or somewhere around there), but that would only be months in TAR. Kind of strange, don't you think, that it would only be months for Birgitte in TAR when time could just as easily speed up as slow down in comparison w/ the time in Randland? Does that seem just a little confusing to everyone else? Shouldn't she sometimes wait months, and sometimes decades? But it seems she never has to wait more than months, or so I infer from the emphasis she puts on that quote.

What I'm trying to figger out here is exactly how time in TAR relates to time in Randland. I mean, they always say a day spent in TAR could be an hour in the real world or a week, although it seems to follow the latter pattern less often, because otherwise dreamers would starve to death in their sleep. So wouldn't it be more often for Birgitte to have to wait decades than only months if she was to be born a few years after Gaidal? Maybe people touching TAR from Randland have some kind of effect on the flow of time in TAR. Who knows. Reality seems infinitely malleable there, to those who have trained their minds, at least. Yet at the same time, it is infinitely permanent, in that even balefire damage is repaired, if somewhat more slowly than other damage.

What I'm getting at is this: what the hell exactly goes on in TAR? More specifically, how is the time dimension in TAR related to that of Randland? There seems to be some kind of equilibrium reached over weeks or months, so that a week or a month seems to be a week or month in TAR, although the first 10 days can go by in 1 and the next day can take 5 or something. But there has to be a similarity point, a point, every now and then, where an equal amount of time has passed both in Randland and TAR. This is caused because of the time fluxes in TAR. Time slows down, crosses the path of time in Randland, drops below it, then speeds up, crosses Randland time again, and surpasses it, and so-on and so-forth.

What controls the time there, though? It can't simply be the human sense of time, because then TAR would synchronized every time somebody entered, and we learned, from the conversation that Elayne and Birgitte (or was it Nynaeve and Birgitte?) had that this is not the case.

We know that time doesn't flow backwards in TAR, i.e.: you can't go into TAR, find a calendar marked Monday, and turn around in a few seconds and see it marked Sunday. Not possible, can't be true, sure, why not. HOWEVER, since time in TAR is NOT SYNCHRONIZED with time in Randland, it is possible to leave Randland on Tuesday, arrive in TAR, and have it be Monday of two years before, or something equally ludicrous. What I am suggesting is that, depending on where in the cycle (oh PLEASE let it be a cycle, because I don't know bistromathics and couldn't apply it to a fictional book in my mind if i did), depending on where in the cycle of TAR time as compared to Randland time, GC could actually have been born into the "real" world a few years before he was, well, born. In other words, he was born at one point in time in TAR, but that point corresponds with an entirely different point in time in Randland.

I know, I'm having trouble following the logic myself, and I wrote the damn thing. Well, at least this way, hopefully I won't be the only one checking into an asylum this month.

rubbernilly: 2003-05-07

I don't think people who support the possibility of Gaidal=Olver are thinking this argument through.

Well, they obviously aren't if they just decide to ignore RJ's own comments that Olver <> Gaidal, but I'm thinking more in terms of logistics.

Think of it this way. When Gaidal was spun out into tRW, his time stopped passing as nebulously as TAR, and started flowing as naturally as anyone else's. Therefore, we need only mark the time (in the real world) that we last see him in TAR (I think through Nynaeve's POV), to be able to determine the maximum age of the babe-Gaidal. If Gaidal was spun out immediately after the last time that he was seen, his age in the real world is marked by that moment. While time might have been fluid in TAR, Nynaeve had a firm time-base to stand on once she returned to her body - there has never been talk of someone going to TAR and having time flow so oddly that they spend a matter of days away from their body; always it is measured closely, in terms of hours. Certainly this margin does not matter considering the age of Gaidal. Once Nynaeve woke up after seeing him the last time, she... *woke*... up. She now has a firmly fixed point in time to know that Gaidal was still in TAR. If he left immediately after being seen this last time, at least we know he can be no older than this firmly fixed point in time in the real world.

Therefore, since a limited amount of time has passed (certainly not the 6 or 7 years that Mat gives Olver) since Gaidal was last seen, we can be sure that Olver cannot be Gaidal.

Further, heroes spun out again do not retain their memories from life to life. They only have these memories while in TAR. Birgitte makes mention of this at one point. So if a babe/child-Gaidal were dreaming himself into TAR, he would definitely not know enough of his history to know that he *was*, in fact, Gaidal. So, we can rule out the theory that he was born the 6 or 7 years that Olver has aged before he was last seen, and appeared to Nynaeve shrouded as he did because he was already alive.

Lastly, there is the idea that time flows backwards in TAR to account for how Gaidal might still be Olver. Despite the fact that RJ has, *AGAIN*, discounted this (and people decide to ignore that), there is the very nature of TAR that can give us a clue as to how time works there.

It is a reflection of the world, a reflection of all the worlds. We see this when Egwene visits Emond's Field in TAR after having not been there during the growth that it experienced from refugees. She sees the change that has happened - the new houses, more of them slate roofed than not. The same was true of Salidar, that as buildings were raised in tRW, they began appearing in TAR.

Never have we seen a reflection of what is yet-to-be in tRW (i.e., a future event), nor have we seen a change to a measurable time in the past (i.e., if, after seeing the changes wrought in Emond's Field, another time we go back to TAR and it is as it was at the beginning of tEotW). In general, the two worlds mirror each other closely. So, since we know that time is fluid in TAR, with 1 hour there being sometimes 3 or more in the waking world and sometimes the oppostie, I think we can theorize the following time-model for TAR:

Time there is a wave.

Sometimes it passes slowly, where Monday in TAR might remain monday while in tRW we move on to Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday.

Then, sometimes, it passes more quickly, and on the next Friday in tRW, time passes in TAR through Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday.

But TAR never gets ahead of tRW. It's just being pulled along like a rubber band (though even that analogy may indicate too much correlation and interaction between the two worlds, which is why I like the wave analogy: every wave is different in height and length, just as any shortening or lengthening of time will be unique and of a solidarity of form).

So the theories that support Gaidal=Olver can be discounted on their own merits... but they really don't have to, people. RJ has discounted it already!

*breathes*

Janstince: 2003-05-12

Okay, yeah, that's kind of the idea i was trying to get across (sinusoidal curve whatever). But you do produce a good point, that the changes that happen in Emond's Field and Salidar are already in TAR as we see when Egwene visits them. Salidar doesn't get the "abandoned feeling" until it has been abandoned, although i'm not quite sure that it couldn't have been abandoned in TAR a couple days before it was in Randland. But you are correct it pointing out that the changes in Emond's Field have taken place in TAR as well, so TAR can't be too far behind Randland, timewise.

What i was trying to get across was that if a character enters TAR on, let's say, Thursday, then it could still be Monday in TAR. If it's Monday in TAR, then it is not necessarily Thursday in Randland, but that's not the point. The point is that time itself is flexible in TAR. Maybe that means it can be controlled, maybe not. However, the biggest telling point was Birgitte's talk about missing GC. She says something like: in Randland, years could pass. In TAR, it could be months. Not exact words, but that is the impression they made upon me.

Now, let's look at some other interesting stuff (i love temporal physics, although i'll probably shoot myself for this :P). The point i was trying to demonstrate is that if a person enters TAR through the dream, as Egwene and the Aiel Dreamwalkers do, then they stay fastened to their bodies in Randland. Therefore, time passes for their bodies normally, but their spirits or wills or whatever the hell is projected into TAR experiences the TAR passage of time. But, since they are still connected to their bodies, and since they never spend large amounts of time in TAR, then the most they get from it is a little disorientation, easily ignored once you are used to it. However, for one who dies and goes to TAR, the Heroes of the Horn, it is different. Because they spend all the time between lives there, they have longer to be affected by it. What i'm trying to get at is that time in TAR doesn't really flow in weeks or days or whatnot. It does what it pleases or, possibly, what whoever is in it pleases (just a theory). But the point is that there isn't necessarily a corresponding time in TAR for every time in Randland, or the other way around if you prefer. I.E., no matter what day you enter TAR from the dream in Randland, you can't hit it on a Tuesday, although you may be able to leave on a Tuesday, if you haven't done it before, or something that amounts to the way that TAR seems to reflect the spacial, but not the temporal, effects of Randland.

Boil all this hoopajooba down, and this is what you get. When Nynaeve, Elayne, Egwene, Amys, Bair, Melaine, or anyone else enters TAR through the dream, they are not affected because their body stays in Randland. Somebody entering TAR in the flesh is not affected much because they don't stay too long. However, somebody who spends a lifetime (or the time between lives) in TAR has a longer time to fall behind time in Randland.

What this means is that seeing GC at a certain time doesn't necessarily mean that he has to be born after the time it was when you wake up. For all you know, you could have jumped back for several years, because TAR decided to lag a bit. It also accounts for GC being at Falme, and how that crossover could have been from a certain time in Randland, but GC wasn't born yet, retroactively. It's kind of like traveling back in time to be your own father. It's okay, so long as you have an open-minded family.

Well, now for the bad news. Please disregard all above. If it weren't for that meddling Emond's Field and Salidar changing close to the time in Randland, then I would've gotten away with it. Oh well, hope you enjoyed this read, and if you didn't, well, meh. Either way, I hope you are at least confused }:P.

Therilon: 2003-05-13

Yes, Janstice, you did confuse me at first, however, there are several flaws in that reply.

The quote you were looking for is,"Time here is not like time in the waking world. I met you here last ten days gone, as it seems to me, and Elayne only a day before. What was is for you?" Nynaeve: "Four days and three."

I'll get back to that quote in a minute.

Time does not flow differently in TAR. percieved time does flow differently, however. If I entered TAR at 12:00, and spent 2 hours of perceived time there, the time in the real world could be 4:00 or 1:00. Time in TAR is percieved to flow faster, in other words, if I entered at 12:00, and spent 2 hours in TAR (percieved time), I could not get out at 10:00 pm, 2 hours before I entered. RJ has stated several times that time cannot flow backwards in TAR.

In my view, time is the same. If I entered TAR at 12:00, then it could not be 10:00 or 1:00 in TAR. The time that you enter TAR is the same in both Worlds.

"Boil all this hoopajooba down, and this is what you get. When Nynaeve, Elayne, Egwene, Amys, Bair, Melaine, or anyone else enters TAR through the dream, they are not affected because their body stays in Randland. Somebody entering TAR in the flesh is not affected much because they don't stay too long. However, somebody who spends a lifetime (or the time between lives) in TAR has a longer time to fall behind time in Randland."

First, Nyneave or Egwene has commented that an hour in the real world seemed to be different than an hour in TAR (She commented that it seemed like 1/2 an hour, instead of one hour).

Second, I think that those that enter TAR in the flesh are affected, I think that Ewgene noticed that the trip did take longer than she thought it would take when she entered TAR in the flesh.

Darksbane77: 2003-06-07

the way i see it is olver could be gaidal cain. mat has the holes in his memories because the taint from the dagger expelled the essence of the fallen hero from his body.but when he went through the ter'angreal the things(i forget which one)put it back in. so olver could be gaidal cain,but he just doesnt remember yet.

Therilon: 2003-06-08

Sorry, Darksbane77, that didn't make any sense. Could you clarify?

Gird: 2003-06-09

No, Olver was born well before we came to know that Gaidal had disappeared from TAR and RJ stated that time cannot go backwards no matter what and therefore Olver cannot be Gaidal.

anderwarrick: 2003-06-09

ummm.. the heroes of the horn dont remember who they are when they are spun out by the pattern, so _if_ olver was gaidal cain, then he would never remember that he was gaidal cain. thats the way it works when the heroes are spun out.

Shadow Bane: 2003-06-09

The only ways Gaidal Cain could be alive is if

1) He was ripped out of T'A'R in battle, say with Lanfear

2)He is just a baby somewhere

3) He is in an alternate existence inside one of the portal stones

4)The creator, like the dark felt the need to place him in an already existing body(not likely)

These are the only ways I see 1 is possible especially with the forsaken back in T'A'R but 2 is still the most likely. 4 is farfetched but I see the Heroes of the Horn as the creators agents, equivalent to the Dark ones Forsaken so if the DO can resurrect his agents why not the Creator?

Shadow Bane: 2003-06-15

Just thought of something. Could gaidal be one of the twins Elayne is going to have? This is just a thought so dont go crazy about how farfetched (sp?) it is

Callandor: 2003-06-15

Most believe that Elaynes twins are the twins that mark the end of an Age, however I forgot their names.

rubbernilly: 2003-06-16

To give proper credit, what I'm about to say comes from Hammer over on Dragonmount...

He thinks that one of the babes Elayne is carrying will be Birgitte properly reborn. So, Birgitte will have to die in the near future, probably doing something heroic like defending Elayne from the attack of Mellar/Hanlon. If she is then reborn as one of Elayne's children, she would be in the right sequence of birth order with Gaidal, and be of the right age.

If this is so, then Gaidal cannot be also Elayne's child - for obvious, if incestual, reasons.

Besides, I don't think the timing is right for Gaidal. He was missing in TAR before Birgitte ever was torn out, and that was *long* before Elayne got knocked up.

Shadow Bane: 2003-06-17

Birgitte being reborn as Elaynes child would be pretty cool if not...weird.I mean Birgitte is Elaynes warder. I wonder if Elayne would recognise her? As far as I know this situation has never happened in Randland ever before, interesting idea though. Like I said Gaidal probably isnt Elaynes child, just some kid out there. If Birgitte was Elaynes kid that would make her the daughter of the dragon, can that happen, can that happen I mean one hero being related to another? Oh well it would make kind of a well rounded ending on the whole Birgitte thing. Good Point I like it!

Jiana: 2003-07-06

Shadow Bane: "can one hero be related to another?" The answer is yes, they can. In TGH, when the Heroes were called back to help fight the Seanchan, there was a pair that were brother and sister. Unfortunately I don't have the book with me and I can't remember their names, but it is there. God how does Jordan keep up with it all??? :)

Shadow Bane: 2003-07-06

Wonder what will happen when Rand meets Birgitte again. She said something to Rand at Falme like "you always did love women that caused you trouble" Besides they are both Elayne's warders now. I like the idea that Birgitte will be reborn as Rand and Elayne's kid. One question i cant remember but did we see Elaynes accepted test? Maybe some clues there?

Jiana: 2003-07-07

The only Accepted tests we saw were Nynaeve's and Egwene's. I was hoping that we would get to see Elayne's, but it wasn't in there, and she never really says much about it, except that the things she saw were terrible. Maybe we will get some clues about it from the parts of the story that are from her POV.

Memnochssoul: 2003-07-10

RJ has said and i don't think that he would lie, that olver is NOT gaidal cain, so im not saying that this happened but i thought of a way that Olver could be Cain, remeber in the dream world before mog ripped out briggette she turned her into a child, could that have happened with cain except he didn't get changed back before getting ripped out? (again no need to point out that rj said olver is not cain, i just wanted to post a theory on how he could have been had rj chose)

Mizguidded Khild: 2003-07-22

What if the Pattern spun Gaidal Cain out already partly grown to compensate for Briditte being ripped from T'A'R. Brid states that they have always been connected, so the pattern would correct for Brid already being grown. Before Brid was ripped out Mog had her as a child, so maybe the pattern sent Gaidal out as a child. Olver may be lying to cover up who he is, or may have lost his previous memories as Brig. did.

rubbernilly: 2003-07-22

First of all, it's Birgitte, people. Not Bridget. There is no 'd.'

Second, Mizguided, do you not accept that RJ has discounted the Olver=Gaidal theory already? Or are you simply arguing for the rhetorical exercise of trying to prove it at least possible in the hypothetical world where RJ had not discounted the theory?

And thirdly, Miz, if you *are* simply arguing for the simple rhetorical value of it, how do you suppose that the pattern would have spun out Gaidal partially grown? What's that about? I feel like I'm reading the World Wide News:

"Cairhienin Woman Gives Birth to 8 yr. Old Boy, Then Killed by Shaido"

And fourthly, Miz, how would Olver know to lie about who he was, as heroes don't have memories of their other lives or of who they truly are when they are born into the pattern?

So many holes, I can't believe that people still credit this theory, especially after having been dismissed by RJ. Even if people don't hunt all over the web for obscure RJ interviews, this thread should be enough; it is mentioned here ad nauseum. Could it be that people are just not reading the entire thread before they go running willy nilly to type up something?

Priest: 2003-07-22

Mizguidded Khild (and the rest of the Olver = Gaidal Cain fans) Please read the next sentence slowly and carefully, if you have a problem understanding, please start at the beginning and read it again.

Robert Jordan, the author of the wheel of time, has stated that Olver is not Gaidal Cain.

Now, let's break that down shall we?

1. Robert Jordan wrote all of the books

2. Robert Jordan knows if Olver is Gaidal Cain

3. Robert Jordan has stated that Olver is not Gaidal Cain

4. Olver is not Gaidal Cain

5. Gaidal Cain is not Olver

6. Is Gaidal Cain Olver?

7. No

----

"Q: Is Olver Gaidal Cain?

RJ: No. I didn't really think that this would last as long as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason for being there besides being a red herring, though.

Q: He's too old.

RJ: Yes. Time in TAR and the real world run at different rates, but it never runs backwards. You may spend anhour in TAR, and a day has passed when you get back, or you may spend a day, and an hour has passed when you get back, but you'll never go in on Tuesday and come back on Monday."

This is from CoT Signing - Dayton, OH - 01/16/2003. (Thank you Therilon)

Korell: 2003-07-22

The hottest news on the press i can see the tabloid headlines now Aes Sedai claims to have had affair with THE DO followed up by Padan Fain evil vicious killer or misunderstood artist? and dont forget.....Aes Sedai fried a man sat night thinking it was a Dragkar it turns out it was just the Bat Boy

Jiana: 2003-07-22

rubbernilly: with a thread this long, it is inevitable that some people will jump ahead to post their own responses before getting the whole picture. :)

Jiana: 2003-07-23

Korrell: Bat Boy? I love it! :)

phaedrus37: 2003-07-31

In tEotW, Thom says: "That is dangerous talk, stupid talk. The dead can be reborn, or take a living body, and it is not something to speak of lightly" (pg278 paperback).

So it is possible that Cain was put into Olver's body when Birgette was ripped out of TAR.

Shadow Bane: 2003-08-01

Read priest's response he puts it in laments terms but ill try too

Gaidal Cain = olver= no

If 'the creator says it aint so it aint so, otherwise who the hell is the creator?'

Machera: 2003-08-02

Ok gc isn't olver but he could be older then one bcuz moggy told birgette that she would make her cry forever so she was planning to do this. remember the famous words of the wheel weaves as the wheel wills so maybe the whell weaved gc out as an older person (like taking over sum 1 s body) in anticipation that birgette would be ripped out of TAR. also doesn't it say sum where that birgette & gc are always 2gether like bound in a way that there always 2gether thing so the wheel would do this in order for both of them to be together so that they could join the other heros of the horn at tarmagedon and help LTT Rand dragon reborn (this guy is worse then slayer)

Shadow Bane: 2003-08-03

Birgitte IS looking for gaidal thats why she likes little ugly boys. (dirty i know) I mean what IS she going to do when she finds him. Shes like 20 and hes like 1 creepy.

Simarilius Grey: 2003-08-04

Ok, this is my first post ever here, so bear with me...

"The dead can be reborn, or take a living body, and it is not something to speak of lightly." >--Thom Merrilin, tEotW, "Shadows Waiting"

Yes.....Thom indeed said that. Most people after reading that would most definitely figure Gaidal Cain and Olver to be as one.....IF, they didn't happen to hear what Robert Jordan....THE AUTHOR...had to say on this topic.

First, the author, ROBERT JORDAN, said in an interview that Olver was NOT Gaidal Cain.

Here is the revelent quote in question:

"Q: Is Olver Gaidal Cain?

RJ: No. I didn't really think that this would last as long as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason for being there besides being a red herring, though.

How......HOW can people STILL be trying to argue the fact that Gaidal Cain is Olver after hearing that straight out of the AUTHOR'S mouth. Give it up already! I believe Gaidal Cain may have been spun out as someone else....but it's not Olver..

That is my piece....think about it...

Jiana: 2003-08-06

I agree, wholeheartedly, that Olver is not, is NOT, IS NOT Gaidal Cain. Sure there are ways that it COULD have happened, but it didn't happen, so that's the end of it. I can't think that Thom's quote from tEotW isn't foreshadowing of a sort though. There are all of those ghosts wandering about, maybe it has something to do with that. :)

EvilJawa101: 2003-11-12

Ok, this is kinda off subject, but what makes you so sure LTT would come back when the horn is blow? Myself, I see him as something above an ordinary hero (yes, I know that sounds stupid). But I see LTT as someting reserved by the Creator for a special point, not before, not after. Personally, I think hes excluded from the horn.

kikyo: 2003-11-13

I don't think Olver is Gaidal Cain. I understand the argument that time moves differently in TAR ... but I think there are some things that are just not possible.

Real world characters saw GC in TAR well after Olver would have been born in the real world, and I think it's just not possible for a soul to be in TAR when it's also in a living body on earth, no matter how wonky time is.

I also don't think it would be possible for GC to be called by the horn if he had been reincarnated as Olver already. As magical as souls are, I just don't think they can be in a body and also somewhere else as well. <

And here's a puzzle. Let's say that GC was Olver. What would have happened then, if one of the times someone had seen him in TAR after Olver was born, he was ripped out Birgitte-style? Then you'd have a Gaidal Cain in the real world and the reincarnated GC in the real world. I just don't see how that could be.

Therilon: 2003-11-13

"Ok, this is kinda off subject, but what makes you so sure LTT would come back when the horn is blow? Myself, I see him as something above an ordinary hero (yes, I know that sounds stupid). But I see LTT as someting reserved by the Creator for a special point, not before, not after. Personally, I think hes excluded from the horn. "

In tGH, Artur Hawkwing refers to LTT on friendly terms. I don't have that book with me, but I believe that there is some evidence to show that Hawkwing has met Rand before, and that Rand is a hero.

Jalt Varyd: 2003-11-13

Everything points to G.C. being Olver except time-related problems, which can be dealt with in a variety of ways.

However, RJ has stated that they are not the same. This is FACT. The argument should be over.

I do wonder why G.C. was spun out too late to fight in the Last Battle, but to soon to be called by the Horn for it. This seems inefficient.

Also, I wonder why RJ included so many clues pointing towards a Gaidal Cain - Olver connection. Just to confuse us??

About the 'Birgitte will die and be reborn as Elayne's daughter' idea: I think Min's viewings of Birgitte prove this wrong. She will be closely tied to G.C. when he is much younger than her. (I also think this proves she is still a Hero of the Horn, but that's just my opinion).

EvilJawa101: 2003-11-13

Yes, LTT is a hero, but not in the sense of say Brigette or Gaidal, they are heros in the sense of an adventurer. Rand is a savior in the sense while I agree that it seems Artur and LTT have met before, it could have been else were, specifically, TAR, or Artur might simply know of him and be impressed. Personally, though, the thing I find really odd, assuming Hawkwing was being friendly, doesn't he hate channelers? I mean, that was the whole attack the tower, kill all Aes Sedai thingy. Am I missing something here?

Therilon: 2003-11-14

"Also, I wonder why RJ included so many clues pointing towards a Gaidal Cain - Olver connection. Just to confuse us??"

Not so- there were just more clues pointing towards Gaidal not being Olver that being Olver. In tFoH, there is a conversation that indicates that time always flows forward in TAR, NEVER BACKWARDS. Percieved time can change, but time itself always flows forward. There are quite a few more clues, but they are listed in my theory and in the replies. Another major point is that Gaidal Cain appeared at the battle of Falme. Read them. It will do you good.

"I do wonder why G.C. was spun out too late to fight in the Last Battle, but to soon to be called by the Horn for it. This seems inefficient."

Olver could have a role after TG.

Now, to the hero issue:

CHAPTER: 47 - The Grave Is No Bar to My Call

"To his surprise, several of the small host behind Artur Hawkwing chuckled, and Birgitte, testing her bowstring, laughed. "You always choose women who cause you trouble, Lews Therin." It had a fond sound, as between old friends."

and

CHAPTER: 47 - The Grave Is No Bar to My Call

"Justice shone like a mirror in Artur Hawkwing's gauntleted fist. "I have fought by your side times beyond number, Lews Therin, and faced you as many more. The Wheel spins us out for its purposes, not ours, to serve the Pattern. I know you, if you do not know yourself."

Anubis: 2003-11-14

im thinkin its a moot point. if there was enough need that the horn was found and blown, then the dragon would already be born and in the pattern. so theoreticly the dragon comes when the horn is blown.. but its not gonna happen.

Therilon: 2003-11-15

Anubis, the horn could be blown before Rand/LTT was spun out of the horn. The point isn't moot, as it has many connections to other theories and prophecies mentioned in the books.

caitlin: 2004-01-04

yes, this seems like a logical explanation. but, as you may know, time shifts differently in TAR. birgette was waiting a week or something for nynaeve and egwene to visit her when it was only three days for her. "a while" in TAR could be a lot longer in the real world.

just something to reflect upon. :)

Therilon: 2004-01-15

caitin, is the quote that you were thinking of this?

"You see, Nynaeve? The flow of time here can shift in larger ways, too. It might be months before I am born again, or days. Here, for me. In the waking world it could be years yet before my birth."

If so, then the seems part of it rules out the time change, as does the interview quote. More discussion on that is located above, with quotes, etc.

Darren: 2004-02-07

Tamyrlin

"The problem is you can't substantiate the idea through any quote in the book that Time can flow "backwards"

Sure you can Tam.... That's what balefire does.

Tamyrlin: 2004-02-07

Darren, time didn't flow backwards, the Pattern re-shifted threads. Balefire forces the Pattern to reattach threads and remove others. Also, this might be another purpose of Mirror Worlds, the ability to "know" how the past would have been had people died or lived, and then being able to realign the past to meet the current present. But the Pattern never flows backward to correct those mistakes, where those threads were cut, they flow forward to meet the present. :)

dragonsceptor: 2004-02-07

Tam's point is reinforced by the fact that the memory of an experience is not erased by balefire. If no need an example, see where Mat was attacked by darkhounds and Rand balefired the darkhounds. Mat remembered the door breaking in and saliva dripping on his arm even though the after the balefire, the door still existed whoe. If time had flowed backward as a result of balefire, Mat would not have remembered the darkhounds breaking the door because it would have never happened.

Darren: 2004-02-08

I didn't say the Pattern flowed backwards, I said Time did (those are NOT the same things, and we shouldn't be writing one for the other...) Balefire "reweaving" the pattern is its negative side effect, not its principal ability. Balefire pushes a thread back in time. It says that in the books. The reweaving becomes necessary because damage done to that one thread changes what would be woven, and so the wheel has to "correct" the anomaly. Now, balefire only focuses (usually) on one or a few threads at a time, but nevertheless it DOES push back in time.

Tamyrlin: 2004-02-08

Darren, Time does not flow backward, the thread, (as you pointed out, the thread isn't Time), ceases to exist.

Quote from the books: "When anything is destroyed with balefire, it ceases to exist before the moment of its destruction, like a thread that burns away from where the flame touched it."

Time does not flow backward, time isn't pushed backward; instead, the thread ceases to exist, while time continues to flow forward. Balefire deletes threads, lives, not time. Their lives, in time, cease to exist in the past, but time does not flow backward. As I suggested before, time, in the future, shifts according to changes made in the past by the deletion of a life. Time, itself, continues to move forward, enabling the shift.

Darren: 2004-02-09

I disagree... When Rand kills Rahvin, it distinctly mentions that (and I quote) "He PUSHED" in order to burn the thread so far back that his friends came back to life

Khaos: 2004-02-09

For the purpose of this post i shall ignore the RJ quotes saying Olver isn't Gaidal Cain.

I did think of two ways it could be possible (or variations of current ideas).

First while still in T'A'R was forced into the shape and mind of Olver and then torn out he could be wandering around with GC stuck in the back of his unable to do anything

and secondly and I think cooler but more contentious GC was reborn as Olver however many years ago it was. But we have seen GC in T'A'R how do you explain that I hear you cry. Simple it wasn't Gaidal Cain it was a T'A'R figment created either by Birgitte (not likely) or more likely by Elayne or Nynaeve upon learning about Birgitte.

This could work taking into account the difference in perceived time. And Gaidal vanished for good after Elayne and Nynaeve learned more control over T'A'R.

And on another tack entirely it is possible that Gaidal is currently a squalling little babe and yet play an important militaristic role in the Last Battle. That is if he is somehow transported to a mirror world via a portal stone. He could grow up there become the warrior he is destined to become, return and far less time in the real world may have passed say 6 months. This would also fit nicely with min's viewing he could be younger i.e. born after Birgitte was torn out and yet now physically older. Plus Birgitte will not be looking for full grown men as potential Gaidal's leaving it open for her to hate him when they first meet, maintaining the pattern despite her knowledge.

jason wolfbrother: 2004-02-09

Darren

"I disagree... When Rand kills Rahvin, it distinctly mentions that (and I quote) "He PUSHED" in order to burn the thread so far back that his friends came back to life "

He is burning the thread back, not turning back time. He is erasing the actions of the thread(Rahvin's life thread), not turning back the clock on the whole day. The thread is being affected, not Time

Callandor: 2004-02-09

I dont' know where you are quoting, but this is what I found:

**TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 55 - The Threads Burn

“Rahvin!” he screamed, and balefire flew from his hands, molten light thicker than a man, driven by all the Power he could draw.

It struck the Forsaken, and Rahvin ceased to exist. The Darkhounds in Rhuidean had become motes before they vanished, whatever kind of life they had had struggling to continue, or the Pattern struggling to maintain itself even for them. Before this, Rahvin simply . . . ceased.**

The only "pushed" that was close to this was this quote:

**TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 55 - The Threads Burn

Rand let the balefire die, pushed saidin away a little. Trying to blink away the purple afterimage, he stared up at the wide hole in the marble balustrade, the remains of one column a fang above it, stared at the matching hole in the palace roofs. They did not flicker, as if what he had done was too strong even for this place to mend. After everything, it seemed almost too easy. Perhaps there was something up there to convince him Rahvin was really dead. He ran toward a door.**

Darren: 2004-02-17

Ok, I'll concede that I was wrong about the pushing, nevertheless, it does say in the same book (I believe it's Asmodean speaking, but maybe Moiraine... really should have brought the text here) that yeah, balefire "burns a thread back before it was struck" (quotes not exact) BUT that "the more powereful the balefire used, the further BACK IN TIME" the burning went. (capitalized words ARE in the text)

I could argue about what's the difference between a single thread going back in time and time travel, but his is a silly argument regardless. Time is a Wheel in the text. Wheels go round, okay? It's pretty unlikely that anyone is going to turn the wheel of time in the opposite direction in the text, but conceivably the possibility is there. Time is NOT linear in the text. If you don't like it, too bad. Write your own novels.

Asdred: 2004-03-05

I don't think Olver is Gaidal Cain, but just to throw the theorie out. Tel'aran'rhiod's time is all messed up, maybe when someone is spun out of TAR they go back in time? Sounds ludacris, but it may be possible. Like I said, I don't think Oscar is Gaidal because of the age, but I have thought it in the past myself.

Therilon: 2004-05-11

"I could argue about what's the difference between a single thread going back in time and time travel, but his is a silly argument regardless....Time is NOT linear in the text. If you don't like it, too bad. Write your own novels. "

I have to disagree with this one, I'm afraid. There is a major difference between burning a thread out of the pattern and going back in time. GLotD can explain it more eloquently than I, but I'll try. Going back in time would require reweaving the thread, while burning a thread has no other effect than burning the thread. When Nyneave's boat was hit by balefire, she would have been sitting in the cabin, thinking, no? When the boat was balefired, the boat had sunk, but to her, there was no difference. She continued thinking while the boat was filling up with water because to her, it wasn't, until the effects of balefire had could up to her.

brother of Battles: 2004-08-16

Blood and Ashes. OK, first off, SkullOne wrote of a passage made by Thom way back on 1/10/03 about people being taken over. Here is that quote and I think it is a good one;

The Eye of the World; Chapter 19 "Shadow's Waiting" pg. 278 (paperback)

"Aemon's warcry, she said-right? maybe you're Aemon come back again. The way you go on about how dull Emond's Field is, I'd think you would like that-being a king and hero reborn."

"Don't say that!" Thom drew a deep breath; everybody stared at him now. "That is dangerous talk, stupid talk. The dead can be reborn, or take a living body, and it is not something to speak of lightly."

I am sorry but that deffinetly sounds like foreshadowing to me.

However, RJ did state right out that time can't flow backwards so drop it.

Oliver has a really strong chance at being Gaidal Cain. But this theory is going to go back and forth until it is put plain in front of us that Oliver is or is not Gaidal Cain.

Oh and LTT is a Hero of the Horn. And two Hero can fight against each other. Just because they fight against each other does not make one or another a bad guy. Look at all the border disputes that happen, and yet durring the Aiel war, Every nation stood sholder to sholder. Do you see anyone that would stand sholder to sholder with the shadow?

Callandor: 2004-08-17

**Oliver has a really strong chance at being Gaidal Cain. But this theory is going to go back and forth until it is put plain in front of us that Oliver is or is not Gaidal Cain.**

I think it has been stated at least 15 times on this thread.

Olver is NOT Gaidal Cain.

From the WoT FAQ:

**And anyway, RJ made the question moot at a post-COT signing in Dayton, OH [report by Tim Kington]:

Q: Is Olver Gaidal Cain?

RJ: No. I didn't really think that this would last as long as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason for being there besides being a red herring, though.

Q: He's too old.

RJ: Yes. Time in T'A'R and the real world run at different rates, but it never runs backwards. You may spend an hour in T'A'R, and a day has passed when you get back, or you may spend a day, and an hour has passed when you get back, but you'll never go in on Tuesday and come back on Monday.

Q: Is the difference in time constant?

RJ: No. It's fairly random. Sometimes fast, sometimes slow, sometimes the same as real time.

Q: It's different for different people, then?

RJ: Yes. Unless they're together in T'A'R. Then the same amount of time passes for them obviously.**

Is the Author's word good enough to cancel the theory? I sure as heck hope so.

Oatman: 2004-08-17

Ok first. Thom is a gleeman, a story teller, not an all knowing being. Unless he has proof of an event such as a body being taken over by a soul in his life time he is giving 3rd or 4th hand information, and it is mentioned by thom himself how stories are warped over time. Second tthis quote:

"That is dangerous talk, stupid talk. The dead can be reborn, or take a living body, and it is not something to speak of lightly."

This dosnt say that the dead can take over a living body but that they can take a living body. Think about Birgitte for a second. She is was dead. She was not reborn. She did not take over someone elses body. She did however take a living body.

Olver is a character put into the books to teach Mat responsibility more than anything else in my opinion, and if he is a hero reborn, he is one not mentioned yet who was spun out years ago, and who will affect the world after the last battle.

Ignoromus21M: 2005-01-30

I personally don't think that GC is Olver. Olver is like a whopping eight years old. ish. GC was weaved out of TAR like, one year or so ago.

That's what I think

maharbry: 2005-03-13

I believe GC is Olver. To the people who say he couldnt have been born until after Falme, I believe somewhere it is said that the heroes were not there in the flesh as normal men are. Couldn't this mean that they merely stepped out or T'A'R'? Since most of the heroes have not been reborn this age, I believe it is entirely possible for their dream selves to have been at Falme. Rip me a new one... I know I left myself open, but I just began reading the series again a week ago so I may have somethings mixed up feel free to disprove me.

free will: 2005-03-26

I'd like to point out some facts and ask some questions.

Fact #1 GC was AWOL in TAR for about a year before Brigette spun out, ... according to Birgette, but time in TAR passes at different subjective speeds, so can we trust Birgette.

Fact #2 Egwene says that GC "makes an appearance" in TAR but could this be a dream appearance? Question #1 have we ever seen a HTH's appearance in TAR when they are babies? Question #2 when in TAR does a HTH remember their HTH status?

Fact #3 RJ has a degree in physics, so he's familiar with time dilation. Could Randland be in a uniform grav field or moving in a curved path that makes everyone in Randland age more slowly than those in deep space, thus allowing GC to age quickly (by reducing the grav field near him, or by taking a straighter path than Randland takes in spacetime)? RJ would know that's possible, and Randland is supposed to be our world at another time, so surely the laws of physics are the same then

Question #3 Is that true that the laws of physics are the same in Randland, or does TDR have to change the laws of physics to seal the bore and defeat the DO for a cycle?

Yaga Shura: 2005-03-26

"Fact #3 RJ has a degree in physics, so he's familiar with time dilation. Could Randland be in a uniform grav field or moving in a curved path that makes everyone in Randland age more slowly than those in deep space, thus allowing GC to age quickly (by reducing the grav field near him, or by taking a straighter path than Randland takes in spacetime)? RJ would know that's possible, and Randland is supposed to be our world at another time, so surely the laws of physics are the same then"

Uh...what are you talking about? I understand the basic principle behind the time dilation you are involving, but wouldn't it involve either:

1) sending Gaidal cain in to deep space (possibly even some sci-fi form of anti gravity would be needed, I don't know)

OR

2)Sending Randland in to the middle of a high gravity field while leaving GC in a region of normal gravity(which is, from a physics perspective, really no different from (1))

How exactly are you suggesting that GC reached this region? Who would send him there, given that the only people with even a chance of knowing about time dilation are the Forsaken? Why would they do this?

While this situation is not a physically impossibility, it is a very daft thing to suggest(this coming from me??!?!) with virtually no chance of being practically implemented

Callandor: 2005-03-26

**Question #3 Is that true that the laws of physics are the same in Randland, or does TDR have to change the laws of physics to seal the bore and defeat the DO for a cycle?**

The laws of physics, for the most part, hold to be true. There is a force like gravity, for example. But other forces it's very unwise to take real world comparisons to.

For example, is the One Power solid, liquid, gas, or plasma? Most likely -- absolutely none of these. We don't have the vocabulary for what it is most likely: it's just a "thing" of nature in Randland.

Aiel Finn: 2005-03-28

First, the One power may just be another field force, then we have a sidar boson and a sadin boson or maybe there is only one OP boson and a TP boson... but I digress.

Since GC hasn't been in T'A'R for a year, and it seems that time can flow diffently for people in T'A'R who are in different frames (If I can't see you, time can do anything for me reletive to you), GC could have been born at any time. Furthermore, Ewgene seeing him could just be Brigette's unconcious mind making his image appear to yell at her.

Jiana: 2005-03-28

Has anyone seen the relatively recent documentaries on the string theory? Stuff like that makes the OP existing in this world entirely possible (maybe not probable, but still...) I always viewed the use of the OP as a manipulation of electro-magnetic fields. Sort of like telekinesis. But then, I'm not a deep thinker or a physics buff. Just one of my off-the-wall ideas, and someone gave me an opening to voice it. :)

maharbry: 2005-03-29

Thats because the true source is energy. Energy doesnt have a form. Only matter is liquid solid gas or plasma

Callandor: 2005-03-29

**Since GC hasn't been in T'A'R for a year, and it seems that time can flow diffently for people in T'A'R who are in different frames (If I can't see you, time can do anything for me reletive to you), GC could have been born at any time.**

No, time moves in random increments in Tel'aran'rhiod, but it never moves backwards -- people never go in Tel'aran'rhiod on Tuesday, and come back on Monday.

**Thats because the true source is energy. Energy doesnt have a form. Only matter is liquid solid gas or plasma**

Ok, sure, whatever you say. Glad to know that the One Power exists in our world, instead of it being fictious and beyond metaphorical comparisons.

gleeman: 2005-03-29

Who said that when a hero leaves TAR, they are physically born into another body? I like the idea of Olver being GC, and the books back-up my theory (for the most part) of why that is so.

If Rand and LTT shared the same body for the 18 or so years Rand had been living before the books, why was he so freaked out hearing LTTs voice in his head? My theory is that heros from TAR arent born directly into bodies, but awakened after some traumatic experience (Rand meeting and killing his first forsaken, Olver losing his family). Though i dont have the books on hand to check if the time lines coincide, i would not be suprised in the least if CGs disappearance occurs a little before we first meet Olver.

Jiana: 2005-03-29

Hey now there's an idea. Thanks Gleeman. Could it be that RJ is hedging a little bit on the question? After all, it wasn't the AS who invented the Game of Houses, it was RJ. The question was "is Olver Gaidal Cain." No, he is not, he's Olver. But if Gaidal Cain is in Olver's head, that doesn't make Olver Gaidal Cain. LTT being in Rand's head doesn't make Rand LTT. Although Rand is LTT reborn, he is still Rand al'Thor. Maybe the question should've been "are Olver and GC connected in any way other than being ugly as sin?"

Callandor: 2005-03-29

**Who said that when a hero leaves TAR, they are physically born into another body?**

Birgitte did.... What else is it, when a Hero is "spun out"?

** I like the idea of Olver being GC, and the books back-up my theory (for the most part) of why that is so.**

Like it all you want; it's incorrect.

**Q: Is Olver Gaidal Cain?

RJ: No. I didn't really think that this would last as long as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason for being there besides being a red herring, though.

Q: He's too old.

RJ: Yes. Time in T'A'R and the real world run at different rates, but it never runs backwards. You may spend an hour in T'A'R, and a day has passed when you get back, or you may spend a day, and an hour has passed when you get back, but you'll never go in on Tuesday and come back on Monday.

Q: Is the difference in time constant?

RJ: No. It's fairly random. Sometimes fast, sometimes slow, sometimes the same as real time.

Q: It's different for different people, then?

RJ: Yes. Unless they're together in T'A'R. Then the same amount of time passes for them obviously.**

**If Rand and LTT shared the same body for the 18 or so years Rand had been living before the books, why was he so freaked out hearing LTTs voice in his head?**

That's dependent on Lews Therin actually ~being~ in Rand's head for 18 years. As far as we know, he wasn't, and has only just recently appeared (over the course of the last 5 or 6 books).

**My theory is that heros from TAR arent born directly into bodies, but awakened after some traumatic experience (Rand meeting and killing his first forsaken, Olver losing his family). Though i dont have the books on hand to check if the time lines coincide, i would not be suprised in the least if CGs disappearance occurs a little before we first meet Olver.**

We have no reason to assume that when Heroes are reborn that they are anything but a soul spun out by the Wheel in a new body as a thread in the Pattern. Rand ~is~ the Dragon Reborn; he ~is~ Lews Therin reborn. Lews Therin appearing in his head, is subject to great controversy and it's generally not the greatest to base much off his existance (unless of course it's for how he came about, in which he is basically all the facts you have to work with).

Ozymandias: 2005-03-29

I dont think thats a valid theory, gleeman. LTT, one might say, has a very specific purpose in these books; namely, keeping Rand alive. Im not gonna bother finding quotes for all the myriad times LTT's knowledge saves Rand. Gaidal Cain is reborn as the actual person with no knowledge of his former selves. Also, another factor which isolates the Dragon from the other Heroes of the Horn, especially Gaidal, is that he is reborn specifically, yet randomly. Mat talks in tPoD of Heroes he remembers who are called out for specific purposes, such as heralding the end of an Age. Then there are heroes like Gaidal, who seem to be born, die, and then be reborn a relatively short time later. This may also happen with the other heroes. Nowhere does it indicate that a Hero (or Heroine) MUST be famous in his/her rebirth. Artur Hawkwing could be wandering the world as a semi-prosperous noble, for all we know. This is supported by the fact that before they are made Heroes, Heroes of the Horn are normal people (otherwise how could Hurin become one, as Artur indicates in TGH?). While relatively stable, the number of Heroes can grow. Anyways I went off on a tangent. I dont think Gaidal can be Olver, because in every instance we see that Gaidal is reborn as a person, not a half crazed voice in the back of someone's head. There is no reason that cycle should break after thousands of years of functioning like that

flayer: 2005-05-22

ok, this may have been said, but ... oh well.

if Birgitte can be ripped out, and she's linked to Gaidel Cain, would it be too far to believe that Gaidal could have been ripped out at the same time?

This is just a thought that occurred to me while reading the post by Therilon at the start.

UberAshaman: 2005-08-10

Ummm, someone said that IF Olver was Gaidal Cain then he would have Cain's memories, like Rand and Lews Therin.

But I remember Birgitte saying somewhere (I think when she was ripped out) that when she was reborn she NEVER had any knowledge of who she was. Someone may have said this already but I cant be bothered to read, what is it?,400 replies now.

Callandor: 2005-08-11

**Ummm, someone said that IF Olver was Gaidal Cain then he would have Cain's memories, like Rand and Lews Therin.**

If Cain had been ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod like Birgitte has, he would be full grown, with all of his memories (or at least a good portion of them), and probably die unless he was bonded right away. He wouldn't be Olver.

If Cain is Olver (which he isn't -- RJ has said that many times), he would not have them.

**TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 52 - Need

"Nynaeve shivered, fear warring with the anger that let her contain the Power. Moghedien. Lanfear. This woman spoke so casually of the Forsaken. "Birgitte, what did Moghedien promise you?"

"She knew what I was, even though I did not. How, I do not know." Birgitte glanced at Cain; he appeared absorbed in his sword, but she lowered her voice anyway. "She promised to make me weep alone for as long as the Wheel turns. She said it as a fact that simply had not happened yet."**

**TITLE: The Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 14 - Meetings

If Birgitte was right, then somewhere in the world a boychild had been born, a mewling babe with no knowledge of who he was, yet destined for adventures that would make new legends. The Wheel wove the heroes into the Pattern as they were needed, to shape thc Pattern, and when they died they returned here to wait again. That was what it meant to be bound to the Wheel. New heroes could find themselves bound so as well, men and women whose bravery and accomplishments raised them far above the ordinary, but once bound, it was forever.**

Heroes (and almost certainly every other person reborn in the world) do not remember who they once were or that they are truely a Hero of the Horn.

lurk: 2005-08-11

is it possible for Moghedien to kill Gidial Cain in Telaranrhiod? Tham he would no longer be bound to the wheel of Time. He would simply be gone

Like Hopper explained to Perrin (young bull) in the wolf dream

Callandor: 2005-08-12

**is it possible for Moghedien to kill Gidial Cain in Telaranrhiod? Tham he would no longer be bound to the wheel of Time. He would simply be gone**

It could very well be. But it's just as equally possible as him being reborn in the world and "safe" from Moghedien (as much as that word could cover safe being).

Laughingman: 2005-08-20

Just to toss another Gaidal Cain and Heros of the Horn thing out. (Ouch, My son just jumped onto My um, just ouch) Anyway. The Horn spun out Gaidal Cain, assumedly, Which, along with a couple of other things, says that there definitely will be a world AFTER the Last Battle.

And a world that needs Heros apparently, since it'll take time for Gaidal to grow up and get all hero like. And yea, I'm still a bit ticked that Olver ISN"T Gaidal Cain, that would have been cool.

William Seeker: 2005-08-21

I don't know whether or not Gaidal is Oliver, but I don't think we should rule out the possiblity. But, here are some things to think on. 1, when Gaidal finds out Birgitte is breaking the rules of TAR he gets all mad. But Olver doesn't seem to care about rules at all. Anyway it seems to me that Olver has just as much chance of being Gaidal as Mat has.

Callandor: 2005-08-21

**The Horn spun out Gaidal Cain, assumedly, Which, along with a couple of other things, says that there definitely will be a world AFTER the Last Battle.**

1. Technicality -- it's the Wheel that spins out the Heroes, not the Horn. The Horn of Valere simply summons them if they are dead and needed. It's easy to think of as this:

A. The Wheel -- puts a soul into a body, and this act makes a thread. This, along with being time itself, is all that the Wheel does.

B. The Pattern -- takes that thread, and the actions that the person do are woven to make the Pattern. This is the "reality" of the Age.

C. The One Power of course makes the Wheel keep turning.

2. Yes, the Light "wins" the Last Battle (to the extent that the Dark One does not break free, and remake the world in his image). We know this, for at least the 4th Age comes about in the writings at the end of the book. However, the cost of this victory is unknown.

Callandor: 2005-08-23

**I don't know whether or not Gaidal is Oliver, but I don't think we should rule out the possiblity. But, here are some things to think on. 1, when Gaidal finds out Birgitte is breaking the rules of TAR he gets all mad. But Olver doesn't seem to care about rules at all. Anyway it seems to me that Olver has just as much chance of being Gaidal as Mat has.**

Olver has no chance. RJ has said, quite clearly and quoted above, that Olver is not Gaidal Cain. He's not now, he wasn't before, he isn't going to be in the future. Olver is Olver. Cain is someone else, probably a regular infant that isn't going to effect the series in any meaningful way.

leitan sedai: 2005-09-16

Just quickly, I have to agree with your p.s, Darren. It's just paraphrasing, but I am pretty sure that on the boat ride out to Salidar, Birgitte was noted to have a special place in her heart for little boys. Later, this is just reiterated in her interactions with kids and expanded to emphasize her preference for UGLY little boys. It's what she's known, and what she's loved. Why wouldn't she gravitate towards and feel protective over a child that reminds her of the man she's eternally devoted to, connected to and in love with?

greyfalconway: 2005-12-13

i think charlz guybon is going to turn out to be gaidal cain. birgitte seems to like him, he fights well, hes smart and he has the same initials in reverse. i remember other things that made me think so, i think. or, if gaidal cain isnt charlz guybon, maybe charlie will at least be birgitte's new love interest. maybe heros dont need to be heros at birth, but they form to the person throughout their life and when the requirements are met, they dont really need to have the spirit of the hero, because they are already, and the heroes take new forms during every turn of the wheel. i dont think gaidal cain looked just like gaidal cain since the beginning of time. and birgitte could have been wrong about how theyd be spun out as babies. i cant recall very well but i seem to remember another girl that was very good at a bow thats with birgitte now. maybe thats the new birgitte, the hero that will take birgitte's place in the last battle.

JakOShadows: 2005-12-14

greyfalcon:

Being a hero doesn't work that way. Your soul is tied to the wheel and is woven out in each turning to create balance, so it just can't be random people if they are specifically woven out at certain times. They might not know it, but they a HotH from birth.

plink0025: 2006-03-14

I don't understand why people keep harping on this. Who's to say that cain has been spun out at all? I mean, when Mat blows the horn of valere a hundred or more of the pattern's heroes come out and nobody's speculating on where artur hawkwing or shivan the hunter are. cain is supposed to be tied to birgitte when she is spun out of the pattern, but this time she was ripped out by moggy. isn't it possible that birgitte just hadn't seen him in a while and he's still in tar with the rest of the heroes? she never really says how long it's been since she's seen cain and how frequently he used to come see her. i cant see how a baby(which is what he'd have to be unless somebody ripped him out of the pattern, too) is going to have very much influence in the final battle, there is too much else going on and i really don't want to hear about baby gaidal cain saving the world.

Callandor: 2006-03-14

** Who's to say that cain has been spun out at all?**

The fact that Birgitte hadn't seen him in a while in tel'aran'rhiod, it's not like he's going to ignore her since they're obviously soulmates, and he's always spun out before her.

**cain is supposed to be tied to birgitte when she is spun out of the pattern, but this time she was ripped out by moggy. isn't it possible that birgitte just hadn't seen him in a while and he's still in tar with the rest of the heroes?**

Why would Birgitte mention it then? Why would he be ignoring her basically? Unless you have a better source, the absolute best person to trust on when a Hero is reborn is another Hero -- especially when they're linked like Birgitte and Gaidal.

**i cant see how a baby(which is what he'd have to be unless somebody ripped him out of the pattern, too) is going to have very much influence in the final battle, there is too much else going on and i really don't want to hear about baby gaidal cain saving the world.**

Does no one ever keep in mind that there is still things to be done AFTER the Last Battle? We know it's not the "true" Last Battle, since we know the Light wins -- there's plenty that he can do when he grows up far outside the main story arc.

Ishamael666: 2006-03-15

Birgitte (or any Hero) can detect people who are aware they are in Tel'aran'rhiod. Given her attachment to Cain, it's unlikely she wouldn't see him fairly frequently, or even stay with him all the time. And since Birgitte says in FoH that she hasn't seen him in a while, the most likely explanation is that Cain has been spun out.

Paddy: 2006-03-16

Obviously the last battle is coming, so the dark would be working to try and win. Since Moghedian seems to know the Heroes hide out in TAR between being spun out or summoned by the horn, perhaps she was sent on a mission to disable as many heroes as she could.

(for this part wish i had the books close dammit)

When Birgitte is ripped out just before Moghedian using her TAR powers turns Birgitte into a child. Now whos to say that in order to disable GC, she turned him into a child, then tore him out? Hes pretty much useless as a child as someone said, he doesn't even seem strong enough to lift 2 swords, let alone use them.

haertchen: 2006-03-16

There's a strong implication that the heros are protected by the wheel somehow, unless they mess up (by, for instance, talking to people who *know* they're in TAR).

Gaidal didn't break the strictures (or whatever they are) and so it seems likely he was protected from being ripped out of the pattern by Moghedien. The most likely alternative is that he was spun out, just like Birgette said.

Callandor: 2006-03-18

**Since Moghedian seems to know the Heroes hide out in TAR between being spun out or summoned by the horn, perhaps she was sent on a mission to disable as many heroes as she could.**

Why? Her desire was clearly on a personal level with Birgitte, and Gaidal by possible extension, alone for what happened in the Age of Legends.

Aan Allein: 2006-04-19

I know that this thread is supposed to be about Gaidal Cain and where he is in the world... I just can't help reading some of the things other people have posted and let it go without writing what I think on here.... so here it goes:

LTT/Rand Al'thor are NOT Heroes of the Horn of Valere(from now on referred to as HOTHOV).... I will state some very basic, very easily understood reasons why he is not, and in doing so I will refute the evidence stated on this post that says otherwise.

LTT isn't a HOTHOV because as is stated in the books the heroes who are called will work for whoever it is that sounds the horn, whether darkfriend or some random good guy. When the horn is blown the HOTHOV come out and WORK TOGETHER to do the blower's bidding (Kind of like a Genie in a lamp just granting wishes with no moral spin on whether what the wish will cause is right or wrong). But as we know, the pattern works to keep the Horn of Valere working for the creator. So therefore when Artur Hawkwing tells Rand (LTT):

“I have fought by your side times beyond number, Lews Therin, and faced you as many more. The Wheel spins us out for its purposes, not ours, to serve the Pattern. I know you, if you do not know yourself."

How could Artur Hawkwing have fought against LTT as many times as he has with him if they are nearly always on the same side… the side of the light.

LTT is outside of the HOTHOV because he is always known as the Dragon Reborn (no HOTHOV is know as that hero), he has the memories of his past life (no HOTHOV has there memories, unless they were ripped out of TAR and bonded as a warder immediately)

There is no way IMHO that LTT is a HOTHOV.

Callandor: 2006-04-21

**LTT/Rand Al'thor are NOT Heroes of the Horn of Valere(from now on referred to as HOTHOV).... I will state some very basic, very easily understood reasons why he is not, and in doing so I will refute the evidence stated on this post that says otherwise.**

Jordan has said that the Dragon soul is one of the Heroes of the Horn:

**Q: "Is this soul born in any other age, or only at the advent and the closing of the Third Age, as The Dragon/TDR?"

A: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age.**

No point in arguing it: the Dragon soul, and Lews Therin and Rand al'Thor by continuation, is one of the Heroes of the Horn.

**How could Artur Hawkwing have fought against LTT as many times as he has with him if they are nearly always on the same side… the side of the light.**

Because there isn't a direct opposite from Light to Shadow. Hawkwing can be working for a third party, for or against the Dragon soul. Think Shadar Logoth. Is it for the Light or the Shadow? Technically, neither, it's a middle party

And we've seen countless examples of people work against Rand in the books who are not Darkfriends; they're just people at their own interests, or working off information that isn't truly complete, or for other reasons as well.

**LTT is outside of the HOTHOV because he is always known as the Dragon Reborn (no HOTHOV is know as that hero), he has the memories of his past life (no HOTHOV has there memories, unless they were ripped out of TAR and bonded as a warder immediately)**

Lews Therin was the Dragon. Rand al'Thor is the Dragon Reborn. Rand is Lews Therin reborn; IE: same soul, in a new life.

The pattern: 2006-05-19

I disagree with this theory, the horn calls forth the hero tied to the pattern. The pattern therefor could have an imprint of the person on it. Or the person In Randland could just fall unconcious while his soul leaves his body to be incarnated from the horn. Similiar to the episode with faile and Perrin and the ter 'angrel.

Karede: 2006-06-28

I think this puts an end to the Olver/Gladial Cain theory-->

Q: Is Olver Gaidal Cain?

RJ: No. I didn't really think that this would last as long as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason for being there besides being a red herring, though.

Q: He's too old.

RJ: Yes. Time in T'A'R and the real world run at different rates, but it never runs backwards. You may spend an hour in T'A'R, and a day has passed when you get back, or you may spend a day, and an hour has passed when you get back, but you'll never go in on Tuesday and come back on Monday.

Epitomy-of-Insignifficance: 2006-07-18

SECOND, in TSR, Nynaeve talks to Birgitte and she says that if she was spun out of the pattern right then, she would be a "mewling babe at my mother's arm."

Key words, "Right then". Meaning, that if she was spun out a moment before then or after then, there could be a different result, perhaps dramatically different. Time does differ in TAR, and while there may have been time references, we have not been given an exact formula, which would probably mean there isn't one. Furthermore, the ability to travel from one place in TAR to another without "folding or tearing" implies the ability to manipulate time and distance, both of which vary greatly as well in TAR. I am surprised we haven't run into the problem of Birgitte having already had a conversation with Elayne and answering a future question the Elayne has not asked yet. 7 years is a stretch admittedly for Olver, but then we do not have a definite set of laws or norms for TAR. Just a thought though, and probably one already expressed.

JakOShadows: 2006-07-20

Epitomy-of-Insignifficance:

Yes, but RJ has said himself that there is a basic timeline principle. If Gaidal is in t'a'r, he has not been born yet. And since Nyn sees Gaidal in tFoH, it means that he has not been born. If he has not been born, then it means that Olver is not Gaidal Cain. There is not possible way that it can be Olver, not to mention that RJ has said that it is not so.

Epitomy-of-Insignifficance: 2006-07-25

So I guess Olver is only just an ugly boy cursed with the charm of Mat Cauthon ;). How sad...

BKVMC: 2007-09-02

At first i thought there would be NO WAY olver could be Gaidal cain but after reading TFOH for the millionth time i have changed my mind quoting from page 272 of TFOH:

"" How long do you have?" Nynaeve asked. " Years yet surely." Birgitte was always tied to Gaidal, had ben tied in story after story, in Age after Age, of adventure and a romance that even the Whee of Time did not break. She was Always born after gaidal;a yer or five, or ten but after.

"I do not know, Nynaeve. Time here is not like time in thewaking world. I met you here last ten days gone, as it seems to me , and Elayne only a day before. What was it for you?

"Four days and three", Nynaeve muttered. skip down to next paragraph.

" You see, Nynaeve? The flow oftime here can shift in larger ways, too. It might be months befor I am born again , or days.Here, for me. In the waking world it could be years tey before my birth."

This proves to me that Olver COULD very possibly be Gaidal Cain there are to many similaritys to rule him out IMO even though Birgitte was Ripped out of Tel unnaturally she STILL came out AFTER Gaidal was spun out regardless of the strage way it happened to her.

Zimm: 2008-03-09

In all technicality, Olver IS older than Birgette. :D

MatOdin: 2009-10-28

It could be that time is fluid in Telan'rhiod? I'm not really a supporter of the Gaidal/Olver connection because just because someone is ugly, doesn't mean they are a reborn ugly hero.

Sevynwarr: 2009-10-29

This hasn't much to do with the OP, but with several replies where people have stated their belief that Olver is Cain. I hate to be a bubble burster here on the whole Olver=Cain theory, but RJ has said to fans that Olver IS NOT Cain. This was about 6-7 years ago. I heard him say it in person at a signing, and he seemed rather annoyed about it, like he wished people would stop asking that question. I believe you can find proof of it on Dragonmount.com somewhere, but it has been quite a while since I sifted through their stuff and have no idea where to begin looking. Not exactly helpful, I know.

At the Signing I attended where this issue was addressed, RJ stated that Olver was NOT Cain, but has an important unrelated role to play in the story. When asked if Cain would make an appearance he gave the customary "read and find out" answer he was so fond of.

The OP is right. When you think about it, it just isn't physically possible for Olver to be Cain. The time difference isn't THAT huge between TAR and the real world.

Ageto68: 2010-01-17

Although RJ already clarified that Olver is not GC, allow me to explain how it could at least be possible that he COULD have been. First, when Nynaeve was first running into Birgette in T'A'R (early - mid FoH), they have a discussion about the flows of time between the waking world and the World of Dreams. Nynaeve it has been one night since the last meeting with Birgette, and Birgette says it has been 3 for her. Birgette goes on to explain that was maybe a day or two in the real qorld could easily be weeks or months in T'A'R. That being said, when she mentions GC having been missing for some time, there is the possibility that he could have been born "months before" or even years depending on the exact time he went missing. Second, yes we know that GC was present in T'A'R during Shadow Rising and was there during the horn, there is a logical explanation as to how he can still be Olver. Rand is obviously Lews Therin reincarnate. But we don't see any thoughts of LT or "words that are not Rand's own" until FoH. Meaning was in his mid twenties when his reincarnate soul began to manifest itself. Olver fits the physical characteristics of GC. He may be of right age, depending on the odd flows of time in T'A'R. And the spirit of GC will not manifest in Olver until he is older. Please dicuss

graeylin13: 2010-07-04

This is a responce by Tamyrlin in Are there any REAL voices in Rand's head?:
These following passages make it obvious that Lews Therin Telamon is a Hero of the Horn.

TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 47 - The Grave Is No Bar to My Call
"To his surprise, several of the small host behind Artur Hawkwing chuckled, and Birgitte, testing her bowstring, laughed. "You always choose women who cause you trouble, Lews Therin." It had a fond sound, as between old friends."

TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 47 - The Grave Is No Bar to My Call
"Justice shone like a mirror in Artur Hawkwing's gauntleted fist. "I have fought by your side times beyond number, Lews Therin, and faced you as many more. The Wheel spins us out for its purposes, not ours, to serve the Pattern. I know you, if you do not know yourself."

LTT is a Hero of the Horn that's fact.

Above from Callandor... This does not mean LTT is a hero of the Horn..Just may mean it was not always LTT's side that sounded the horn..Hawkwing says he has fought with and against him...so sometimes the DO gets the horn and sometimes the Dragon does.

graeylin13: 2010-07-04

Why it is not possible..Birgite says when they are spun out they are reborn as babes...so when he was sun out he'd be a newborn...LTT is not a hero of the horn..Hawkwing basically proves this by saying he has fought on LTT's side and against him countless times..meaning control of the horn must switch between the sides on occasion...nowhere does it say LTT's side always gets the horn and we know in every world the creator and dark one fights and the creator doesn't always win...in those worlds where the light lost, hawkwing must have fought on the Dark's side..and it may also be the case in Rand's world...where thehorn does not guarentee victory in every age it is used..some ages the DO may get to use it in others the light..remember we are only dealing with the prophecies concerning this age and cycle.

terez: 2010-07-05

Hey guys, I'm sorry these responses were neglected - we have a tendency to pay more attention to new theories than old ones.

First off, RJ clarified the issue of time in Tel'aran'rhiod:

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 16 January 2003, Dayton, OH - Tim Kington reporting

Q: Is Olver Gaidal Cain?
RJ: No. I didn't really think that this would last as long as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason for being there besides being a red herring, though.
Q: He's too old.
RJ: Yes. Time in Tel'aran'rhiod and the real world run at different rates, but it never runs backwards. You may spend an hour in Tel'aran'rhiod, and a day has passed when you get back, or you may spend a day, and an hour has passed when you get back, but you'll never go in on Tuesday and come back on Monday.
Q: Is the difference in time constant?
RJ: No. It's fairly random. Sometimes fast, sometimes slow, sometimes the same as real time.
Q: It's different for different people, then?
RJ: Yes. Unless they're together in Tel'aran'rhiod. Then the same amount of time passes for them obviously.

@ageto68 - The first confirmed memory Rand had of Lews Therin was in The Shadow Rising Ch. 9, 'Decisions'. Also, he recognized Shayol Ghul in a dream in The Eye of the World, Ch. 9, 'Tellings of the Wheel'. That being said, Rand's past life memories are an aberration, and don't really mean anything in the context of this discussion.

@graeylin13 - Rand might have fought against Hawkwing while they were incarnate; Hawkwing would remember it in Tel'aran'rhiod. Rand is a Hero; that much is pretty certain.

terez: 2010-07-05

LOL, I just actually read the thread, and realized that the people I was responding to hadn't read it either. That quote was given a long time ago...though notably not until months after it was posted on the nets (in 2003).

renningerjp: 2010-07-25

Why argue that Gaidal Cain is Olver when it has been mentioned several times that RJ has already said no?

As for Moghedian leaving her alone forever, I believe it mentions somewhere that Birgitte fears her unnatural rebirth has broken their love cycle.

I am speculating now with this one, but i seem to remember reading once that Gaidal Cain needs birgitte in every life, she has to be near him to save him. For some reason i seem to remember hearing either Aviendha or Elayne will need Birgitte. Possible one of their unborn kids(i know aviendha is not prego but it is made obvious that she will be). The timing would fit decently well as it was said it could be months or years before he was reborn. Also min's viewings indicate that there was something off about the babies. A far stretch, but more fitting than trying to argue that Gaidal=Olver.