he Seals
by Elberyn Delumen: 2002-11-27 | Not yet rated
Just a random thought, Moiraine, Lan, the Aes Sedai and Rand constantly say that nothing could break cuendillar. Not even balefire can harm the seals, instead, the One Power strengthens them.
What no one considers is the True Power. This might be because of ignorance. None of Aes Sedai have mentioned it and not even Rand's memories do. Perhaps it is a secret between the Forsaken as only they can channel it. All of this is really irrelevant, the main point is that the use of the True Power on Cuendillar is not discussed in the world. (I just thought I'd air my thoughts on that and see what happened).
If we consider the True Power in relation to the One Power, we could probably guess that it does the converse of the OP. The Dark One is the opposite of the Creator. The True Source is the opposite of the One Source, etc. One the whole, R. Jordan seems to like balance.
In that case, if the One Power strengthens cuendillar could the True Power be the force that weakens it? It is highly possible. Ishamael was free for the entire age so far. Though most maintain that he was partially bound to the Bore, I say that he was completely free. I think the Prologue to EotW proves that without a doubt (someone bound to the bore wouldn't have been able to travel or channel). Ishamael was probably channeling the True Power into the Cuendillar for the past 3000 years until this point.
This would also end confusion on another topic, why Ishamael was reborn and named Nae'blis on top of that. When Moridin first came onto the scene many on these boards ruled out the possibility of him being Ishamael because Ish. had failed against Rand. However, this defeat would pale in comparison his triumph in freeing the Dark One.
Another theory that sort of relates to this is how Rand will seal the bore. Though I don't think this is what will happen,(I think Rand will break the seals) wouldn't it be possible for Rand to seal the Bore again by just channeling enormous amounts of the One Power into the seals with the Choedan Kal? It might strengthen the seals enough that the Dark One would be stuck. Then all Rand would have to do is kill all the forsaken (no small task) but a confrontation with the Dark One wouldn't be necessary.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2002-11-27
While I think the True Power may be a component, it would seem that the taint of the male half of the source is what is responsible. Those seals are focal points of power. I thought there were references to people who touched the seals, similar to the feelings of touching the taint. Similar to the Ways breaking down because of the taint, I would presume that in fact it is a function of the taint instead of the True Power. Maybe a mix.
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Daishan: 2002-11-30
You know what the coolest part of the above theory is? Rand would have to seal the DO's prison with the OPPOSITE of cuendillar for seals. We now enter the realm of utter assumption of course but it sounds a reasonable conclusion of the posted theory. Let me elaborate on that.
Cuendillar is created with use of the One Power and cannot be destroyed by even that One Power once completed. It can however, be destroyed by the True Power. Since the True Power is the opposite of the One Power, wouldn't there also be an
opposite of cuendillar?
Meaning; it's created with the TRUE Power and cannot be destroyed by the TRUE Power once completed?
If so, Rand has to seal the DO's prison with that substance for focus points. Since the DO can only channel the True Power he would never be able to free himself. This, of course, presents another problem, being that the anti-cuendillar, so to speak, can be destroyed with the One Power, which would mean that any channeling darkfriend could free the DO. Which in turn leads me to believe the following...
:-)
The greatest works done with the One Power of old are said to have been done with the male and the female half working together. Might it not be possible to make some sort of "super-cuendillar" by using the True Power and the One Power together? I don't think it's stated anywhere if you can channel both Powers at once but let's just say it isn't possible, and then Rand would need somebody with him to seal the hole. Would fit nicely into the idea some have that Lanfear will have something to do with the resealing... If it's possible to channel both powers Rand might be able to do it himself, but he would have to 'get permission' from the DO in some way. I think the first option is the more likely one.
Maybe it's all nonsense, but I suddenly got these "possibility vibes" goin' on everywhere. Let me know what you think.
By the way, I really don't think the super-cuendillar is needed; it's just what started me thinking. It's said, somewhere in "The Guide" I think, that the 'focus points' were only needed because either
a. both halves of the source were needed to do it without, or
b. because no circles could be formed since no women were there to link with, and therefore the total amount of "One Power" wasn't sufficient.
In the first case, all that's needed (!) is someone channeling the One Power (possibly two people for a male and female half) and someone channeling the True Power. Possibly they would have to be linked so one person directs the flows, but that's really a minor detail.
In the second case the only problem would be that no single channeler could channel enough Power, and then Rand could use his Choedan Kal ter'angreal. The female ter'angreal is melted now of course and somehow I think that's significant...
Well, I've been rambling way to long and I'll have to refine this later, but let me know if you have some ideas...
3
Anubis: 2002-12-07
The true power can only be used with the DOs permission. And now only by moridin. So why would the DO and Ishy want to seal the DO again? They both seem like they want the DO freed.
4
Drekan: 2002-12-09
It's said, somewhere in "The Guide" I think, that the 'focus points' were only needed because either
a. both halves of the source were needed to do it without, or
b. because no circles could be formed since no women were there to link with, and therefore the total amount of "One Power" wasn't sufficient.
In the 'strike at shayol ghul' it has a bit of background on the seal of the prison. The focus points were a plan put forward by LTT, that would have needed focal points even if the woman had been included. However, the women had refused to take part in LTT's plan, instead wanting to go forward with a plan to seal the DO using the Choedan Kal. Because the women were refusing, it was thought that LTT's plan couldnt work because he needed women to place the seals precisely(believed backlash of a lot of imprecision was believed to be ripping open the bore compleatly. ouch). What if the seals are breaking because they weren't placed precisely enough and the resulting stress of 3000 years of the DO and the forsaken trying to remove them has shattered them even though they are cuendillar? (there wouldnt have been studies of 3000 years of that sort of continued pressure on cuendillar, so nobody would know what happens in those circustances).
5
Drekan: 2002-12-09
I've just been looking through the archives on Fel. I read the bit about the patch on the prison was put over a previous patch that had been broken etc. This seems v. likely to me, as it is said quite a bit that the bore exists everywhere, except can be felt at shayol ghul because of 'a thiness in the pattern there'. I was thinking back to what Ba'alzamon was saying about the DO removing the dragon from the wind this time round(so the actual last battle). I thought that perhaps the amount of patching on the prison could now mean that the DO's prison had basically come to a point where it couldnt be patched(you cant patch a pair of socks forever for example, it gets to a point where the patch won't stick). If this is so, then the seals would be having trouble as there isnt mutch around the bore for the the seals to stick in. If this time, there isnt enough left for any sort of patch, then this age, either the prison needs to be rebuilt, or the DO is free forever(unless the DO's pattern somehow gives rise to a being that can reimprision him, as the creators pattern gave way to people that could free him).
Not sure if that makes much sense, but just putting down my thoughts.
6
Callandor: 2002-12-11
Aes Sedai and even Rand or LTT dont even know that the True Power exists. Like someone already said only the Forsaken, who serve the DO, could draw the TP through his own permission and now only Mordin can (notice how Moggy is denied the TP when she meets Mordin). So the making of Cuendillar with the True Power to seal the DO would be impossible unless there were like 30 or so Forsaken to start out with some then turned back to the good side after making the Cuendillar seals and only 13 Forsaken remainded loyal. But this sounds liek utter lunacy. Also, all the Cuendillar items like cups, plates, swords havent been worsening. Although they arent holding the DO at bay so who knows.
7
Drekan: 2002-12-12
I can't remember where it says it, but I'm pretty sure somewhere it says that cuendillar was only created for a purpose. Some items, like cups, swords, etc, have a purpose that, essentially, never ends. I wonder what happens to cuendillar items when their purpose is up, as the seals purpose now seems to be.
8
Drekan: 2002-12-14
I know I've posted a lot on this board, but this is something I think about quite a bit. So here I go again.
Elberyn said:
'In that case, if the One Power strengthens cuendillar could the True Power be the force that weakens it? It is highly possible. Ishamael was free for the entire age so far.'
I just thought of something else that has been around for the entire age. The taint.
Let me explain. As known, the seals, when created were what allowed the DO access through them, to the Hundred Companions, through to the OP. So, as the seals were created, the DO's taint ran through them, probably corrupting the Cuendillar in some way. Now for the entire age, the taint, already linked to seals as its conduit to the OP, has probably been affecting them and working on the taint in them. This, coupled with the DO working on them from the inside, and possibly Ishamael on the outside, was probably enough to destroy the flawed cuendillar after 3000 years of concentrated effort.
9
Daishan: 2002-12-15
(Reply to Drekan:)
Which (hell...) brings me back to asking the same question all over again (on a different thread); why would Herid Fel want Rand to break the Seals if it is happening anyway? And if this is what Herid wants to tell Rand, why would a Gholam kill him? The Forsaken are aware that the Seals are breaking, so... ? (sorry, different discussion, but seemed appropriate)
Also, the theory that the Taint and the Seals have a lot to do with each other is thoroughly discussed in the archives as well. Unfortunately, for all those who believed breaking the Seals would rid us of the taint, Rand has shown them another way. I'm not sure I believe the "taint/seals"-connection. Seems to me there's little evidence for it, only speculation. But I stand almost entirely alone on that one I think.
10
Drekan: 2002-12-20
'why would Herid Fel want Rand to break the Seals if it is happening anyway? And if this is what Herid wants to tell Rand, why would a Gholam kill him?'
Control. Whoever breaks the seals is the one who controls when the LB is. If they know exactly when the LB is, then preparation can be made in advance, giving the side that broke the seals a BIG advantage. If Rand breaks the seals, when he wants to, on his terms the DO will have less warning and probably won't be as prepared for Rand as he would like.
Also, on the taint/seals thing, I've thought of a few other possibilities that could have happened, that would have resulted in worse things happening(can never tell what would have happened now, so am quite safe saying these :)) Lets say the taint and the seals are linked, as everyone else said they were. So the taint was linked to the physical world. If this link was severed, by breaking all the seals, it would be more likely that the taint, having lost its link to the physical world, would have stayed on the OP. Except now, with no link, there would have been NO way to get it off. Thats one idea of a possible consequence that I dont think anybody thought of.
11
Darren: 2003-01-19
Fel doesn't just want Rand to break the seals, because then there's still a prison with a hole in it. He has to completely destroy the prison, and build a new one. And no, it can't be made with the TP... that would be like building a prison for the Sandman in the Sahara.
12
Galadriel: 2003-01-23
Exactly. Rand HAS to let the Dark One out, so that a prison can be built, and the Dark One imprisoned. That was what Fel was alluding to, and even what Lews Therin apparently wants to do. Remember when Taim brought Rand a seal in Caemlyn? Rand almost smashed it when he was arguing with Lews Therin in his head. I think Lews understands what he needs to do.
Setting the Dark One free, and creating a new prison for him satisfies Fel's logic that there had to be a time in the turning of the wheel when no one knew of the Dark One. Also, I think Egwene dreamed that Rand was walking on crumbled seals.
13
Jiana: 2003-03-21
I agree, Ishamael was totally free. He came to see Lews Therin in the very first prologue... This was of course when the madness had LTT, and that would mean that it happened AFTER the sealing. Ishamael was never bound, but I can't for the life of me figure why.
And yes, any failure against Rand would be counted small, if at all, compared with the work Ish did for the Shadow all the years he was free. In light of CoT, however, we have some new insight as to how the bore will be resealed. Egwene has rediscovered the making of heartstone. Elayne has rediscovered the making of ter'angreal. Those two things combined with the awesome circle that our beloved characters could make, lead me to believe that Elayne, Egwene, Rand, and Nynaeve, among others, will be the ones to seal the bore again, with new seals as the focal point. The hole that used to be Shadar Logoth could very well end up being the new Eye of the World. However, my hope for the resealing is that all of the Forsaken will be killed, instead of bound; it would just be simpler for everyone.
14
Callandor: 2003-03-25
Ishamael was bound, however I think it took him a while (40 years most likely)to be brought competely into the Bore to be sealed off. However, it seems that he was thrown out with some regularity or in a predictable cycle. This is how he could be with LTT in order to Heal him in some way, and then be a mastermind for the Trolloc Wars (a banner lead by the Trollocs had the name of Ba alzamon which was the name of Ishamael), and then the advisor for Hawkwing that lead to his downfall and sent his son over to Seanchan, not to mention being hte first Forsaken freed (Moridins (Ishamael) statements in TPOD about the Warder bond points to he was first freed).
So he was kinda trapped but not really. He was out for 40 year intervals every once and a while.
15
Callandor: 2003-03-28
And a quick sides note: The fact that Ishamael was thrown out of the Bore first, lets say 15 years early, can fit into the fact that the Black Ajah was searching (in New Spring with the Red or something I havent read it yet). So if he was out 15 years before the rest of the Forsaken, this is a very rough estimate by the way, plays very well into my theory that Taim is a new Dreadlord trained by Ishamael first, and then later on by Demandred after Ishamael died and then gained Demandreds quircks and mannerisms so that LTT freaks out a lot when near him and why people say that Taim was Demandred. Thats how Taim got taught to be the D*Coy (which I personally think is a great pun of a name and bravo to whoever thought it up).
16
juitzhead: 2003-03-30
Just wondering, if Rand is meant to completely destroy the prison, this would mean that the DO would be completely free in the world. I would assume that this would be the beginning of the LB and that Rand would be fairly busy fighting the DO at this point. Who is going to re-build the prison? Perhaps this is where Logian's glory comes in. he keeps the DO busy and Rand re-builds the prison uninterrupted, just like in WH when he cleaned saidin.
