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Home | Index | Archives | Help
ands Dizziness
by Anubis: 2002-12-13 | 2.33 out of 10 (6 votes)
Previous Categories: Miscellaneous Theories
:D my first theory!
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2002-12-13
Here is an additional quote that might help define what the dizziness comes from,
"For an instant, he saw double; the world seemed to tilt dizzily. That was a recent problem, and he worried it might be part of the sickness that killed men who channeled, but the dizziness never lasted more than moments. It was the rest of letting go that he regretted."
The dizziness comes when he accesses and lets go of the OP. Now, is it a function of the taint, which comes from the DO, or is it in direct relation to the DO's increasing ability to touch the world? The taint isn't necessarily any stronger as the DO's touch increases because the Hundred Companions and others destroyed the world after the DO was sealed up. You bring up a good question, does the taint enable the DO to touch each male channeler? Any thoughts people?
migster: 2002-12-20
I don't see any evidence that the taint allows the D.O. to directly affect/influence/'touch' any male channeler. Of course, I don't see any evidence to the contrary. :) However, it seems like it would figure more prominently in the story if it was the case.
Inevitably, every such discussion gets back to the nature of the taint, the seals on the prison, Fel's cryptic remarks, etc. My reading was always that the taint is an addition to saidin, a poisoning that is an after effect of the backlash, no longer controlled by the D.O. He can provide protection from the taint as he does for the Forsaken, but I haven't read anything which indicates he USES it.
This ends up being a rambling statement that only makes the claim, "I see no evidence, so I'm going to assume not."
One other note, In WH, Rand experiences dizziness without embracing the source while in Cairhien with Min and Dobraine.
Anubis: 2002-12-25
I dont think this has too much to do with the taint. As far as we know, no other channelers have experianced this so it seems to be rand specific. If anything this is a sign that the LB is fast approaching and that the DO is becoming more and more active in the world. Perhaps he is becoming like he was in the AOL, able to reach out and touch the pattern more and more. If this is the case then our heroes have much to worry about.
silverwolf: 2002-12-29
The dizziness shows up right after Rand's battle with Sammael in Shadar Logoth. Why then? When Rand is rescued by Moridin, both men use balefire to drive back Mashadar. The balefires collide, and the backlash makes Rand dizzy and gives him a headache. This is probably the source of Rand's dizziness while embracing the source. The only big question left is: did the dizziness come from the OP and the TP colliding, or did it originate from the two balefires colliding?
Spunkies: 2003-01-12
The characters always say to never name the dark one because his eye will fall on you. I'm just kinda guessing but I'm thinking the DO would be highly interested in all of Rand's moves and his eye is always on him but more intensely when you takes the power because he wants to see what he's gonna do to him and his cronies next and wants to stop it.
Zepher: 2003-02-16
My theory is that when Eggwene or Aviendha unraveled that gateway after using the Bowl o' Winds, that caused a hell of an explosion and made the TP feel odd even to the damme that the Seanchan use. I believe)don't have the book so can't be too sure) that this is what caused the strange effects noticed in POD when Rand was battleing the Seanchan and went nuts. Just a thought...
Dragons Shadow: 2003-02-24
Rand's dizziness is an effect from the crossing of the balefire streams in Shadar Logoth. The power sources of the two streams are polar opposites and therefore caused a short circuit of sorts.
Secondly, Rand went "nuts" because of the missing buffer on Calandor. Calandor magnified the effects of the taint and induced chaotic behavior.
Thirdly, the strangeness of the One Power was a result of the use of the Bowl of Winds. It wove an immensely intricate weave to break the DO's hold on the weather. It left impossibly small weaves throughout the area that remained until the weather was completely corrected.
Great Captain: 2003-03-03
I agree that the cause of the dizziness is directly linked to the crossing of balefire streams in Shadar Logoth. My only disagreement with the theories is that the wanderer is Moridin. Personally I believe that the man was in actual effect Shai'Tan himself Aridhol is one of the least patterned controlled areas of Randland. More likely that the avatar would be able to materialize within the area. Moridin wouldn't veil himself because Rand doesn't know what he looks like anyway.
Callandor: 2003-03-04
PEOPLE STOP!!! THE WANDERER AND THE WATCHER ARE MORIDIN!
Facts:
1. Description: Big fellow. Has a deep voice. Little older than Rand. Black coat, Black hair. Rand doesnt recognize him. So he DIDNT hide his features, Rand just doesnt know him.
2. He is clearly not a Third Age person. He knows Sammael, knows he he THINKS. SO its really obvious he knows Sammael really good so he is obviously from the AOL.
3. He has **never been afraid of Aes Sedai.** How many people in this day and age grow up fearing to be caught in Aes Sedai traps? To anger them? EVERYBODY! Moridin is clearly not afraid of Aes Sedai. Why? Hes from the AOL, when he was a **true** Aes Sedai and the girls of this age are nothing but **untrained children** to him.
4. He uses TP. ONLY the Forsaken use TP, and this could be a dangerous time to use it because it could make Rand suspicious, and yet he uses it. Why? Hes a TP addict. Hmmm.... who else is a TP addict?
5. Even without the TP, he is clearly a person of the Dark. He says that he doesnt **care to see [Rand] die today**, he doesnt **intend to carry [Rand] on [his] shoulders, or kill Sammael.** He doesnt care about Rands well being (so hes NOTTTTT the CREATOR!), he is only letting Rand walk away alive because he has a plan to work with.
6. He doesnt like Rand. Plain and simple fact. When the balefire streams cross and Rand tries to help him up he just refuses **with a grimace.**
7. And this is quite a key fact because it comes from RJ himself in a responce from a question of an aol.com chat, on June 27th, 1996:
**Question: There is a mystery man who helps Rand in the last chapter of ACOS...is this a new character, or have we seen him elsewhere.**
**RJ: Well, we ve certainly seen him earlier in CROWN OF SWORDS.**
Now it must be a Forsaken due to numbers 2,3,4,5,6. So we are left with 2 Forsaken: Demandred and Moridin. Aran gar is a woman now, and Osan gar is Dashiva so Rand would know him on the spot.
Physical description doesnt match Demandred, mainly because he isnt young looking. But it matches Moridin AMAZINGLY well. ACOS, Chapter 25, Mindtrap, pages 417-418:
**The speaker was a tall, broad-shouldered young man in black boots and breeches, and a flowing white shirt unlaced at the top, who watched her with startlingly blue eyes ...** He has a deep voice. He has a strong chin, else he would be worthy of Graendals collection. He looks to be just a little older than Rand, **Not many years past twenty.**
Description, age, size, fashion all match Moridin, NOTTT to mention the TP addiction. He refers to Sammaels plan, which he implies what the Watcher was doing in earlier chapters of ACOS, and the Watcher was MORIDIN. AND LASTLY... his talking to and about Rand shows he views him as a piece in a game... remember Ishamael in the first three books? Or what about the Fisher anyone??
Its too close a match for it not to be Moridin.
Moridin is the Watcher who is the Wanderer who is Ishamael reincarnated by the DO. End of story.
Anubis: 2003-03-04
I dont think i agree with the dizziness being a result of the balefires connecting. while i agree that that woul be incredibly wierd and could cause disruptions in the pattern its self that would throw things out of wack, i dont think it would have a permanend affect, make rand sick, and only affect him as he embraces saidin if this were the case.
Amazona: 2003-05-29
I think it could be very likely that Rand's Dizzy spells have something to do with his two unhealable wounds, the first recieved from Ishmael at Falme and the second from the Shador Logoth dagger carried by Fain. Flinn decribed it in CoS "These are alike, but different, as if there's two kinds of infection at work. Only it isn't infection; it's...darkness." "I sort of sealed them away from him, for a time, anyhow. It won't last. They're fighting each other, now. Maybe they'll kill off each other, while he heals himself the rest of the way." The dizziness starts only few days later. Maybe its a symptom of the two evils fighting one another. Thoughts anyone?
Callandor: 2003-05-29
Flinn is a strong channeler and it would be assumed that he used as much power as he could to stop those wounds. So if anything, the sealing would last for quite a long time.
A good reference in my mind is Moggy shielding Linadrin. She used a heck of a lot of power, and not all of her possible power because she was just Healed from the arrow incident, and she said that it would last for quite sometime unless she found someone powerful enough to get rid of it.
So if this is any guide the wounds should have been seperated for some time, so I dont think its the wounds.
Fade: 2003-06-29
I have recently been reading aCoS again and i created a theory on the cause of rands channeling sickness. when rand and moridin both sent balefire at Machinshin, rand used the OP and moridin used the TP. i believe that when their two weaves met, they, well for lack of a better term, "swaped" a portion of their power. i do not mean their strength in their powers, but that rand is now channeling the OP with a small flow of the TP. this would potentially give rand a new sensation, because he has never used the TP, making him sick. Moridin, channeling the TP with a side of OP would not have any side effects, because he started out as a OP user then switched to the TP.
Now you are saying that he cant use it because the DO has to grant permission to use it. in this case i believe that rand is getting his flow of TP from moridin, who is getting it from the DO.
Anubis: 2003-06-29
ya know... all this talk about the balefires connecting and whatnot is leaving somthing very very important out of the equation.
we need to ask ourselves what ishmael was doing in shadar lagoth in the first place. i would bet he was trying to do somthing to rand. he knows rand is going after sammael, and knows about sammaels shadar lagoth bolt hole (assumedly). so when he has this incredibly rare opportunity to get rand alone. he shows up, does "nothing" and leaves. i dont think we can count the balefires as being to plan, because i doubt ishy would rely on rand using balefire, i bet that had somthing to do with the greater war and opportunity to damage the pattern or whatever. regardless, there is somthing going on here that we are not seeing. tho i guess RAFO...
Rhodric: 2003-06-30
and so when Rand grabs the True Source he also grabs at the True Power. and since he doesn't have permission to use the TP it just calls the DO's attention down on him like in tGH, and he gets dizzy. NICE.
i like this theory, Fade. I like it a lot. ;)
rubbernilly: 2003-06-30
How completely can I disagree with that idea, Fade? Completely.
Channeling saidin is different from channeling saidar, and it's different from channeling the TP. Rand would not access TP simply by stepping through the process of channeling saidin. Plus I wholly disagree with the getting of TP through Moridin. Not only is that completely out of place in the books. The only other place where power comes from someone else is when the two people are linked, and the link only stays in place as long as the one in control continues to channel and draw the power. Rand has given up channeling (stopped channeling, that is), so we know that he isn't part of a link. Besides, he would be aware of Moridin in ways that were never described in the books. So they are not linked.
If Rand were using the TP, he would show up on all the Forsaken radar *as* using TP. They would recognize it. PLUS, there is no reason that the weaving of OP would match the weave-to-outcome of TP. So if someone *could* manage to fold in TP with a OP weave, the TP would be doing its own thing. If it were shaped to the weave for OP balefire, for example, it would perform something perhaps completely different, as that weave in TP casting might mean something else.
In addition, why only when he seizes and releases the Source? Why not in the meantime, too, if he is channeling the TP the whole time?
And, finally, the TP comes from the DO. That is the only indication we have from the books. Anything else regarding Rand channeling through Moridin is pure conjecture that cannot be successfully corroborated with anything from the books.
*catches breath*
Did I hit everything?
Shadow Bane: 2003-06-30
Interesting idea Fade, Do you think Moridin is aware of this though? I mean does he know Rand is channeling TP? Will Rand get Saa?
Weird Harold: 2003-06-30
Rubbernilly asks, "In addition, why only when he seizes and releases the Source? Why not in the meantime, too, if he is channeling the TP the whole time?"
Rand's dizzyness and nausea is NOT only when he channels. On three seperate occasions in WH he gets dizzy and stumbles without even thinking about channeling; two of those occasions are in Far Madding where he can't even sense Saidin.
rubbernilly: 2003-06-30
WH -
I'd have to re-read that Far Madding story again to know the specifics about the times you mention, but I'm only concerning myself right now with the times that Rand is channeling, as that is what Fade was asserting (that in channeling, Rand is pulling a string of TP from Moridin). In that case, why is it only when he seizes and releases the Source? Why not in the meantime?
And as for the Far Madding incidents, are you saying that the TP can still be sensed in that artificial stedding - or in any stedding, for that matter? Do we have proof of this one way or the other, or is this like the "Are Gholams immune to the TP?" question on this site?
Shadow Bane: 2003-06-30
Just thought of something. We have heard that when you suddenly let go of the OP it can have disasterous effects.What if when the balefires hit they made Rand's and Ishy's link to saidin disappear because they 'undid' that part of the pattern? That would mean Rand just let go of the OP and the sickness could be a direct result of that.
Callandor: 2003-06-30
**If Rand were using the TP, he would show up on all the Forsaken radar *as* using TP. They would recognize it. PLUS, there is no reason that the weaving of OP would match the weave-to-outcome of TP. So if someone *could* manage to fold in TP with a OP weave, the TP would be doing its own thing. If it were shaped to the weave for OP balefire, for example, it would perform something perhaps completely different, as that weave in TP casting might mean something else.**
Wrong. Nobody can sense the TP except the user and the DO. Nobody.
And as far as we know channeling the TP is the exact same thing as channeling the OP just with the permission of hte DO needed and the saa side effects. It wouldnt totally take control of a weave for example.
And NO! Rand is not channeling the TP. He needs the DOs permission to do that. Only Moridin can channel the TP now.
Weird Harold: 2003-06-30
Rubbernilly said, "I'm only concerning myself right now with the times that Rand is channeling, as that is what Fade was asserting (that in channeling, Rand is pulling a string of TP from Moridin)"
That was what I was refuting -- that Rand's sickness is related to channeling anything. Since it happens when he's somewhere he can't channel -- like following Rochaid down the streets of Far Madding -- then the sickness is not related to seizing or releasing Saidin.
Rubbernilly asked, "..are you saying that the TP can still be sensed in that artificial stedding - or in any stedding, for that matter?"
No, I'm saying that Rand's dizzyness and nausea are totally unrelated to the OP or the TP, or anything except the physical effects of along term infection -- maybe his un-healing wounds or just a blocked ear, but probably early signs of the "Rotting Disease" cused by the Taint.
juitzhead: 2003-06-30
The two instances that i know of rand's dizziness WITHOUT holding to saidin in WH are in Prologue, and Ch 11.
Rhodric: 2003-06-30
did anyone actually read my last post?
i was going with Fade's theory that Rand has kinda swapped a bit of OP for TP, via the balefire incident.
now, when rand seizes Saidin, he also "accidentally" grabs AT, reaches FOR the TP aswell.
Rand is unallowed/unable to use the TP, but the DO is aware of the attempt to grab it. this callse the DO's attention, and the DO then momentarily knows where Rand is and screws with his head a little.
Rand never actually holds the TP. he just unknowingly grabs at the TP. the source for the TP is the DO. so basically rand is reaching into the DO for the few moments that he seizes Saidin.
and hence the effects are the same as 'naming the Dark One'
of course this assumes that the balefire incident is the cause. hmmm.
Callandor: 2003-06-30
Yes we read it. And to me, its sounds utterly foolish. Rand can't use the TP and cant access the TP (unknowingly or not).
Weird Harold: 2003-07-01
juitzhead said, "The two instances that i know of rand's dizziness WITHOUT holding to saidin in WH are in Prologue, and Ch 11."
The third is mixed in with the symptoms of being near the SL Daggar when he fights Fain and just afterwards.
Rhodric asked, "did anyone actually read my last post?"
Yes I did -- I disagree with your assertion because Rand's dizzyness is not associated only with channeling.
Rhodric says, "now, when rand seizes Saidin, he also "accidentally" grabs AT, reaches FOR the TP as well."
This doesn't account for the dizzy spells tht aren't associated with channeling.
In the original theory post, Annubis says, "I think that Rands new dizziness is the Dark One touching the world as he becomes free."
This conclusion has some merit and can explain all instances of Rand's dizzyness.
I don't think it's a deliberate "messing with Rand's mind" sort of thing from the DO, but just a reaction or resonance with either of the two "evils" in his unhealing wounds. One of the two instances in Far Madding was in the presence of Padan Fain and the other was on the street where Padan Fain was apparently trailing Kisman and could have come close enough to Rand to cause a reaction.
I'm not sure which "evil" might have come close enough to cause a reaction in the prologue of WH at the Academy, but the dizzyness does appear to be an "allergic reaction" to one of the two "Evils" otherwise -- either the Taint when he channels or close proximity to the TP or Padan Fain.
Perhaps Moridin was eavesdropping on Rand at the academy?
rubbernilly: 2003-07-01
Callandor/Weird Harold -
I completely agree with you both. Rand's sickness is not strictly associated with channeling, and he is definitely not channeling the TP.
Sometimes, in order to disprove a point, I entertain the different shapes that argument can take (like the possibility of sensing the TP in Far Madding). That doesn't mean that I agree with that point, only that I'm trying to state one possible explanation so that I can continue with a more thorough refutation.
My thinking goes:
1) So-and-so asserts that Rand is, in part, channeling the TP, and that this is the reason for his sickness
2) To which we answer Rand has a dizziness/nausea spell in Far Madding, where he couldn't sense the source, so it cannot be associated with channeling.
3) To which So-and-so *might* answer, "Well, what if you can't sense the Source in Far Madding, but you can sense the True Power there? Maybe the AS who set those ter'angreal stones around the city didn't take into account - or couldn't take into account - the TP as well."
4) Which gives rise to my question of do we have any indication one way or the other as to if the TP can be sensed in a stedding - artificial or not. (WH, I should have phrased my question as a "What would you say about that" rather than a "Is this what you're saying...").
I will try to be clearer in the future.
checkout operator: 2005-11-29
i always thought rands dizziness was L.T.T reaching for the power. oh well...
vgman1: 2005-11-30
Do we know that the stranger who helped Rand in Shadar Logoth channeled TP? I had assumed that, due to the chaotic nature of Shadar Logoth, Lews Therin had separated himself from Rand and helped. Rand does not know what Lews Therin looks like, and he would not sense another man channeling because Lews Therin is joined with Rand. This point is also when Rand starts hearing and feeling Lews Therin trying to take control, isn't it? Now that Lews Therin managed to separate himself, he's know aware of where he is and wants to be in control.
Darkshadow: 2005-11-30
i think people seem to forget that Rand gets dizzy when he thinks of Mat or Perrin... and then he can see their immediate actions and vice versa. After Fain slashed Rand w/ the SL dagger, he seemed fine and was able to channel without any problems whatsoever.
The comes the part where his balefire merges with Moridins and then he gets hit with a wave of dizziness. Since then, it has been a gradual step in that he gets dizzy when embracing the OP and at times he could see someones face. This face turns out to be Moridin as was proven in KOD.
My conclusion is just like Rand can be aware of Mat and Perrin by thinking of them (and gets dizzy in the process), the same holds true for when he see Moridin... what i dont get is why he sees Moridin when he embraces the OP.
Kuma: 2005-11-30
**...a reaction or resonance with either of the two "evils" in his unhealing wounds. One of the two instances in Far Madding was in the presence of Padan Fain and the other was on the street where Padan Fain was apparently trailing Kisman and could have come close enough to Rand to cause a reaction.**
I think you're spot on here, Wierd Harold, and it does beg the question of who was close enough to cause the "allergic reaction" at the Academy. A hint from RJ that not everything was as it seemed in that scene? That Fain was near, or Moridin?
Beyond that, although my books are back in the US (denying me the pleasure of looking it up myself), I seem to remember a quote regarding one of Rand's dizzy visions of Moridin in which the Forsaken appeared to be on the verge of vomiting. (Help, quotemasters?) I think that the link created between Rand and Moridin by the crossed balefire streams has led to a sharing of Rand's illness between them as well. Might this explain Moridin's disdain of using the OP and having switched to exclusively using TP at this point? Or was that fact confirmed pre-balefire crossing? I can't remember.
In any case, good discussion, all.
Callandor: 2005-12-01
**Do we know that the stranger who helped Rand in Shadar Logoth channeled TP?**
Yes, for Rand does not detect any bit of saidin from the man while he uses balefire or makes a gateway. He's also obviously Moridin, so he uses on the True Power.
**Rand does not know what Lews Therin looks like, and he would not sense another man channeling because Lews Therin is joined with Rand.**
Rand has seen the image of Lews Therin in his dreams:
**TITLE: Path of Daggers, CHAPTER: 21 - Answering the Summons
Rand pushed the words down to a fly's buzzing, just on the edge of notice. Since his reappearance inside Rand's head, Lews Therin seldom went silent unless forced. The man seemed madder than ever most of the time, and usually angrier as well. Stronger sometimes, too. That voice invaded Rand's dreams, and when he saw himself in a dream, it was not always himself at all that he saw. It was not always Lews Therin, either, the face he had come to recognize as Lews Therin's. Sometimes it was blurred, yet vaguely familiar, and Lews Therin seemed startled by it, too. That was an indication how far the man's madness went. Or maybe his own.**
**This point is also when Rand starts hearing and feeling Lews Therin trying to take control, isn't it? Now that Lews Therin managed to separate himself, he's know aware of where he is and wants to be in control.**
No. Lews Therin has tried to effect Rand's use of saidin before:
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 28 - Letters
I must kill him, Lews Therin muttered, and the Power surged in Rand. Frozen, he struggled to push saidin away, and it was a struggle. Lews Therin was trying to hang on, trying to channel. Finally, slowly, the One Power faded like water draining from a hole in a bucket.**
Nafro: 2007-04-27
Has anyone ever thougth that the times Rand got dizzy in Far Madding were due to the fact that Moridin was seizing the source? In KoD, when Rand gets dizzy when he confronts Semirhage, he sees Moridin and it appears that Moridin is "dizzy" as well.