1
Tamyrlin: 2002-12-24
Although, as you point out, Semirhage could have used Compulsion on her. That would be funny if we went back and read The Great Hunt and noticed a Seanchan woman described :) But, for the Empress to be a darkfriend...well, you have some things on your side, she sent a darkfriend as second in command of the Return and she has left that darkfriend in control of the Return. But this would help my opinion that the Seanchan, as a whole group, will never follow Rand. I wonder if we have missed hints.
2
silverwolf: 2002-12-27
I thought it was pretty obvious that the Seanchan will eventually follow Rand--the Prophecies of the Dragon say that the "nine moons shall bow down and serve him." It would be too big of a coincidence for that verse to mean anything but that the seanchan will serve Rand.
3
Anubis: 2002-12-29
i think that this was just a traditional forsaken rise to power. show up, kill the one who holds the office you want, then use a touch of compulsion to get appointed. i dont think that this points to the empress being a darkfriend. if the empress were a darkfriend then i think that the seanchan would be more intent on creating chaos. the seanchan bring a very ordered system and this is the exact kind of thing the do and moridin seem to be against. it would be all to easy for the emperis to tell the forerunners to just kill the heathens that killed artur hawkwing and this would create loads of chaos.
4
Callandor: 2002-12-31
No. The Forsaken just dont kill whoever they want and take their place. Look at Ravhin. As Lord Gabriel he started out as a leader that stopped a rebellion. Then he became of a favorite of Morgase through compulsion. Notice that he didnt start out as a high lord and use Mirror of Mists or anything. He started out low and worked up really quickly.
Now in the Seanchan empire we have one telling of a person going into a high place REALLY quickly. Tuons Truthspeaker (whose name eludes me right now sorry). She got her position because the last person took a fall down the stairs. Then someone else was appointed and I forgot what happend to them. So I think that the emperess is just what people make her out to be. Come on we have had other seanchan that seem totally nuts but they just believe what they want. Like the Children of the Light. So just because some of the seanchan are darkfriends doesnt mean that the empress is. Come on RJ said even OGIER can be darkfriends.
5
Anubis: 2003-01-09
the forsaken dont just kill whomever they want and take their place, you are right. however they have a remarkable ability to get rid of a person close to the power. in illian, tear, and andor, and take that position. im not saying that the death always happens, but im pretty sure a high lord and a council of 9 died to make way for the forsaken. gareth bryne was just gotten rid of through the use of compulsion on morgaese. The darkfriends are never the throne, they are always behind the throne pulling the strings.
and who needs trust? in seanchan especially. if the empress says Anath is the (whatever) then who is going to question her? Sure i can really see some high lord (seanchan) saying no.
6
mako0424: 2003-11-14
YES!!!! brilliant, of course the Empress is a darkfriend, im glad someone else noticed, yes, thats why Semirhage is tuon's advisor, and all these strong darkfriends are in power with the seanchan, but tuon will love and marry matt, and together they will stop Anath (semirhage) and also learn of the empress's treason. also explaining how the seanchan prophecies have been twisted and contrived for darker purposes and the seanchan army has been wrongly influenced by the empress.
she will be killed probably by matt and tuon and other seanchan) and power of the Crystal throne will fall to tuon, thus the Seanchan will join rand in his efforts to stop the dark one.
7
padanfain: 2005-04-26
The phrase "the nine moons shall bow down and serve him" doesn't necesserily mean that all of the seanchan shall follow him, they may split in different groups but it's pretty obvious that Tuon is going to follow Rand cause of Mat.
8
JakOShadows: 2005-04-28
This is my first time write in too, so I'll try and do good.
The the Seanchan and forsaken(and other lower darkfriends) promotion for a position seem to be similar. Both of them support a lot of competition between each other to prove who's stronger. Whereas the different nations seem to not like or go by a more peaceful means if possible. One example is of Cairhien in the Great Hunt when Galldrian and the other guy(I can't remember his name off hand) are playing the Game of Houses to vie for position. Everyone views it as a bad time to be living in there. Whereas the Seanchan seem competitive that they have spys that specifically focus on finding traitors and darkfriends among all ranks who have almost absolute power.
I'm just throwing it out there, do what you want to it.
9
Aiel Finn: 2005-04-28
The crystal throne seems to be a compulsion ter'angreal. If Semhiridge used compulsion on the Emperess, then whatever she planted would be unquestionable. How better to come to power. The Emperess may have orderd Tuon's old truthspeaker's death herself. As for the rest of the DF's in Sanchean society, there are no more or more powerful than in any other society.
10
fistandantilus: 2005-04-28
*The phrase "the nine moons shall bow down and serve him"...*
*...Tuon is going to follow Rand cause of Mat.*
Remember, Tuon is daughter of the nine moons, the nine moons refers to her mother, the Empress. And if the Empress is going to kneel to Rand, and is a Darkfriend, I think the Prophecies would give some form of warning to Rand that she is not all that she seems.
I don't see this as being much of an issue in the series. Unless the Empress comes to Randland, and soon, we will never see her. RJ already said that we will not be going to Seanchan in the books.
11
Ozymandias: 2005-04-28
Someone (mako i believe) said that tuon and mat will find out about the Empress's treason and overthrow her. I think this is a good time to throw in the idea that this is impossible. The Empress (or Emperor) is basically a living god to the Seanchan. I don't think its physically possible that the Empress committ treason; whatever she does is what everyone else should do. If she is in fact a darkfriend, than NOT being a darkfriend is treasonous. Just what I think, based on what we know of the monolithic Seanchan society. I mean, the Empress is the only onoe in the whole society who is free from suspicion at any time. Even Tuon is subject to a small degree of scrutiny from the Seekers of Truth. Not so with the Empress.
12
Callandor: 2005-04-29
**Remember, Tuon is daughter of the nine moons, the nine moons refers to her mother, the Empress. And if the Empress is going to kneel to Rand, and is a Darkfriend, I think the Prophecies would give some form of warning to Rand that she is not all that she seems.**
Technically, the court could be signified as the Nine Moons, but that more than anything most likely means the Empress.
However, Tuon acts in Randland as the Empress -- her word is law there because she was sent. She is the Nine Moons really ;)
13
sarutobi: 2005-05-12
One thing that ive been curious about. The theory that one of the forsaken have used compulsion on the empress. Im just curious about how they got so close. The forsaken havnt been loose very long and as some have said shes basicly a god to the seanchan. She will have guards and damane with her at all times. So if obne of the forsaken show up and channels at her she will be disposed. If they decided to be a advisor or soem sort to get close to the empress i dont think they could even get an audience with her in such short time.
14
Callandor: 2005-05-13
**If they decided to be a advisor or soem sort to get close to the empress i dont think they could even get an audience with her in such short time.**
The virtually accepted fact (it's pretty dang hard to disregard it), is that Anath is Semirhage. Anath was appointed by the Empress rougly two years ago. People take that appointment as the Empress being possibly Compelled in the decision. Whether it's true or not, is yet to be confirmed.
15
jrowe: 2005-05-19
"The darkfriends are never the throne, they are always behind the throne pulling the strings. "
This is true. And yet, Semirhage has chosen not the Empress herself but her daughter to be her puppet. Why? I'm sure through Tuon, or directly she has pulled some larger strings, sure. But the fact remains she decided it was of greater value to be the power behind Tuon instead of the power behind the Empress directly and I'm curious why. Does she feel the Return is the only thing Seandar has to contribute to the last battle and that controlling the empress directly left her too far from the action? Does she foresee Tuon as being a more profitable puppet than the Empress herself? For that matter, is the Empress (may she live forever) even a person? Is she a figurehead only with Tuon as the highest living human presence in the empire? For some reason whenever I hear "may she live forever" I get this image of another series of books I've read where the empress was indeed dead and through magic was kept from appearing dead and even animated to some extent to give the semblance of life. The populous thought she was alive but the court knew she was not in their hearts but everyone at court was content to lie to themselves and each other to keep from facing the truth of the charade. Is something like that happening in Seandar with Miss Live Forever? Probably not but it makes me explore alternative possibilities for the nature of the empress of seanchan. One way or another, Semirhage had as much oppotunity to control the empress directly and chose Tuon instead. I think the question of why is more relevant than how she managed to get the post. She's a sadist with a ton of power and a very cold heart. She'd manage to get what she wanted I'm sure, with or without a darkfriend on the throne.
16
jrowe: 2005-05-19
somewhat off subject and slightly humorous but I can't help but wonder if Semirhage had gone to see Graendal prior to joining the shadow, is it possible niether of them would have turned? Semirhage turned to the shadow to keep enjoying her sadistic pleasures. Clearly the woman needed therapy.
Enter Graendal, the world's leading therapist curing afflictions of the mind that the Power couldn't even touch. Might she have helped Semirhage to find a healthier outlook on life and saved her from ever having been given the fateful ultimatum by the Hall of Servants?
And Greandal who was dedicated to the severely simplistic life, who eventually got fed up with the fact that no one could live up to her standards and joined the dark side to show them all the meaning of decadence. Semirhage is described as being pretty much as stark and reserved as Graendal likely once was. Is is possible with Semirhage as her patient, she would have finally found someone who she could help who could live by her example. Someone to give her hope that the decadent people of the world were not beyond redemption and still needed (and deserved) her genius?
It's even possible both ladies were leaders in their disciplines of the medical industry at the same time. They might have attended seminars together, maybe even met one another as famous people tend to do. And if only Semirhage had opened up to the one woman who might have been able to help her, a lot of grief could have been spared from the world. (not to mention a lot of missing royal hotties everywhere could have avoided worshipful servitude to a woman who was second fiddle to Lanfear).
17
MatCauthon: 2005-05-19
I believe she's with Tuon since she is the one in charge of the Return to Randland. Thats where Rand, the other Forsaken, and all the important events are at and where the Last Battle will happen. So staying with the Empress herself would keep her too far away from the action.
As for the Empress being dead but no one knowing, I don't think so. There is no proof to show that. I also remember reading passages about other Emperors and stuff like that (can't look for them atm). These would show that its not just 1 Empress as a figurehead while actually dead.
18
Korell: 2005-05-20
hello everyone long time. well ill get right to it
sarutobi
"She will have guards and damane with her at all times. So if obne of the forsaken show up and channels at her she will be disposed."
while this could be a valid argument there is one flaw...Inverted weaves. The Forsaken know how to invert weaves so a Damne would have no clue that there is any chaneling going on.
"Im just curious about how they got so close."
You could just use compulsion to work your way to the top really i mean you could comple Joe the gaurd on the entrance to the Palace and Bob the Empresses Advisor. all you would have to do is work your way in and she has had plenty of time to do so. I dont know for sure how long but she has had atleast a few years to worm her way in.
"his is true. And yet, Semirhage has chosen not the Empress herself but her daughter to be her puppet. Why?"
I agree with some of the others that it could be because she is in charge of the return which is taking place in the land where the Shadow is rising. However Tuon is in a very powerful position even if it is not the MOST powerful since she is ultimatly below the Empress herself. But she WILL be Empress eventually. So Semirhage is set up nicely if this were to happen before the end of Tarmon Gaiden. (not to make a sidetrack) What if a Forsaken does not reveal themselves before the last battle and the DO falls? What would happen to them the DO as a finaly stroke could kill them though i doubt this. So would be have a Happy little Forsaken running around or what? just a thought back on track now
Finally to the real reason i wanted to post. this is complete speculation with no proof or background for proving it its just a thought.
What if the Empress herself can Channel? the only kind of backing i can offer is that Tuon can channel (i know some doubt this but i belive she can) and atleast as a minor thought channeling is heredatary (going off the idea that channeling is related to body and soul this makes sense because part of the childs genetic code would be from a parent that has the genetic code to channe) anyway was just a thought
19
Yaga Shura: 2005-05-20
"What if the Empress herself can Channel? the only kind of backing i can offer is that Tuon can channel (i know some doubt this but i belive she can) and atleast as a minor thought channeling is heredatary (going off the idea that channeling is related to body and soul this makes sense because part of the childs genetic code would be from a parent that has the genetic code to channe) anyway was just a thought "
Ignoring the fact that I have argued that Tuon cannot channel, for the channeling ability to pass mother to daughter is seemingly rare except in those cultures which are highly secluded e.g. the Seafolk. The Seanchan are not this way.
