Tamyrlin: 2003-01-03

This idea has been floated. Although, the reason some have a hard time giving it credence has to do with the fact that Rand's attack was quite unannounced and the DO doesn't seem to work that quickly. I guess you could say that Slayer had been sent long before then to track and kill him and saw them go to Caemlyn, so he jumped into Tel'aran'rhoid, kept out of Rhavin and Rand's way, and then opened a gateway into a room and waited for Asmodean...it is as plausible as most other answers. Whatever Jordan says, he left it as ambiguous as possible.

Callandor: 2003-01-04

Your telling me a killer like Slayer basked in the glow of killing 2 BA Aes Sedai up until Winters Heart, when IF he killed Asmodean he hasnt even mentioned it in his own thoughts? Unless something is seriously wrong with the guy he should at least be saying in hs head **Heck ya.... I killed one of the Forsaken** but hes still all dreamy about killing an Aes Sedai and that was a RARE treat. No way in my mind. Slayer is a very good canidate for the murder but that one fact gives way too much doubt in my mind.

Mairashda: 2003-01-04

mh... I cannot prove this theory wrong. however, "you? no." (asmodeans famous last words) somehow does not seem to fit a killer who is not of the chosen (sorry, forsaken) considering that asmodean is thinking about how he will be the last of them left...

jason wolfbrother: 2003-01-04

I thought that the creator (Robert Jordan) made it clear in an interview (can't remember exactly when or with whom right now) that Graendal was the killer or Asmodean. She was the only one that seemed to have certain knowledge of Asmodean's death. The other Forsaken were uncertain about his whereabouts but she was certain that he was dead when she was conversing with Sammael. Also she is one of the few that was unaccounted for at the time and up till then in the series she had made a relatively small impact upon Randland. It took until my third reading through the series but I think it is clear that Graendal is the culprit working under the personal supervision and order of the Dark One

Anubis: 2003-01-06

Ive always liked the Lanfear idea. If you through out all evidence and just look at the bare bones plot, then it makes a creapy ammount of sense. Lanfear, that Asmodean particularily fears "dies" offscreen. Then in a one of a kind pov, we see an Asmodean, relieved that the forsaken are dying and espicially glad that Lanfear is gone. Then the infamous, "No, you!" line and he is a corpse. Its a bit cookie cutter when you look at it this way, but then RJ did say it was obvious.

Callandor: 2003-01-06

RJ said in response to some peoples questions after ACOS or TPOD I cant remember which, but he said that the killer should have been obvious right from the time he was killed. Thing is with Slayer is that we had NO idea the extent of his abilities till WH. So how can it be obvious for Slayer to be the killer in TFOH if we dont know most of his abilities till four books later?? As for Lanfear, it really IS obvious for one major reason: She told Rand that she and him WOULD kill Asmodean. In TSR, Chapter 9, Decisions, page 129, **Kneel to the Great Lord, and he will set you above all others. He will leave you free to reign as you will, so long as you bend knee to him only once. To acknowledge him. No more than that. He told me this. Asmodean will teach you to wield the Power without it killing you, teach you what you can do with it. Let me help you. We can destroy all the others. The Great Lord will not care. We can destroy all of them, EVEN ASMODEAN, once he has taught you all you need to know. You and I can rule the world together under the Great Lord, forever.** (I caps the important part).

So Lanfear planned to knock off Asmodean right after he taught Rand enough. AND! Asmodean was a total coward, thats a given, he feared all other Forsaken, but he feared Lanfear A LOT more. In TFOH, Chapter 6, Gateways, page 124, Lanfear is talking to Rand when she says ***Even if he manages to convince the others that he has been a prisoner, they would still tear him apart, and he knows it. The weakest dog in the pack often suffers that fate. Besides, I watch his dreams on occasion. He dreams of you triumphing over the Great Lord and putting him up beside you on high. Sometimes he dreams of me.* Her smile said those dreams were pleasant for her, but not so for Asmodean.** So obviously Asmodean is terrorfied of Lanfear MUCH more then any other Forsaken.

Furthermore, in TFOH, Chapter 56, Glowing Embers, page 681, just before getting whacked, Asmodean was just thinking to himself about Lanfear being dead and how glad he was: **He was hardly sorry Lanfear was dead. Rahvin either, but Lanfear especially, for what she had done to him. He would laugh when each of the others died, too, and most for the last.** Not thirty seconds later Asmodean opens the door, sees someone and is shocked/terrified, says his famous last lines, and kicks the bucket.

Obvious? I SURE DO THINK SO.

Anubis: 2003-01-07

Nice, looks like we had the same idea there. the biggest sticking point with the lanfear killed asmodean theory is the *finn. But i think i have found a way around this. Lanfear says that she was stronger before the finn HELD her. If they did not kill her then it is entirely possible that she just asked for a way out and got it in exchange for weaker channeling (or somthing like that). then she went and killed asmodean (as planned).

Possible suggestions on how she died? I think moridin may have done it. They were having a power struggle in the first few books that needed to be resolved. Mebby morridin killed her to punish her for disobeying but the DO brought her back and imprisoned her soul because she is still a valuable tool to have around. I think it makes sense.

Brainchz: 2003-01-07

I've got a question that I haven't read yet in any theory. How does the fact that we now know that Cyndane is Lanfear change the belief that she killed Asmodean? If she came back from Finnland changed then how would Asmodean recognize her. None of the other forsaken recognized her when she was first introduced.

I still believe that Lanfear killed him, it just makes the most sense, but this is a new wrinkle I think will have to be explained

Callandor: 2003-01-08

Look at my submisson in the Lanfear, Slayer, Asmodean theory. I think i explain how Lanfear could have gotten away from the Finn, and how she still wasn't Cyndane, and then how she got taken back, and turned into Cyndane.

Daishan: 2003-01-08

If I may politely interrupt please...

I read that post, and I don't agree. :-)

Lanfear has only three wishes, so why waste one on Asmodean? Of course she would want him dead but she could also just wish to get out and then Travel to him and finish him off. And by the way, if she's wishing people dead, why not Rand? She just tried to kill him a few hours ago and would have succeeded if not for Moiraine. She still wants him dead as we know from Cyndane's point of view.

Bottom line for me is; she wouldn't have used one of her wishes for it. It just makes no sense.

Callandor: 2003-01-09

Why would she kill Asmodean? Cause she has one big #@%e ego!

Ok... Asmodean basically insulted/humilliated Lanfear because he WAS able to teach Rand enough things so that he could stand his ground against Lanfear. And Lanfear is the kinda gal to not take humiliation easily. Examples of her ego: Shes the Daugther of the Night. She took the TAR as her relm even though she wasnt the best at controlling it. Any others?

lewstherin80: 2003-01-09

Has everyone forgotten the rules in Finnland? They themselves are not evil just different from us and they fight the shadow just like those in Randland. Moiraine said that any question touching the shadow has dire consequences. They would NOT help a servant of the shadow. Lanfear could not have killed Asmodean.

Callandor: 2003-01-09

That might not be true. Moiraine said any questions like you stated. QUESTIONS. We arent sure if the Finn can just sense the Forsaken as evil. I mean we arent sure if they have a cloud of evil going around them in Finnland. So maybe the Finn wouldnt know Lanfear was a Forsaken. Although they might have found out after Lanfears first wish (maybe going to knock of Asmodean ;-)), then they rooted through her memories, found out she was evil, then punished her for it.

Daishan: 2003-01-09

Fun discussion :-)

Well Slayer seems to have a lot to do with at least the Tower of Ghenjei (<= probably spelled wrong), and he's plainly evil so I have to agree with Callandor (grmbl.... :-) ) that they don't necessarily fight the Shadow.

Another thing is; the main reason Rand could "stand up to her" (actually he hardly attacked her, if at all, only defended) like he did was because of his angreal. Lanfear must have known he had one, since she had one herself and was a close match with Lews Therin without one in the AoL.

And again; I think she had a bigger bone to pick with Rand than with Asmodean. So why not kill Rand? That's what she set out to do in the first place? And you didn't answer my other point either; that she could just "wish herself out" (like Mat did) and Travel to Asmo and then do him in.

Daishan: 2003-01-09

Ooh thinking about the Moiraine/Lanfear scene something occurred to me... Moiraine had TWO angreal right before she disappeared. Is it just me or has nobody commented on this yet? Could Moiraine overcome Lanfear with both angreal together? (the bracelet and the ivory carving of a woman) She obviously knew some of what was coming that day and took precautions (like placing the bracelet at the doorstep in the first place). Totally different discussion but I'll make it relevant: what if Moiraine killed Asmodean? :-) lol. It would be fun if some more clues could be discovered. I'm not saying I believe this myself, but I definitely don't believe Lanfear did it.

sotrips: 2003-01-09

Asmodeans killer has already been figured out.

sotrips: 2003-01-09

To the person below - yes graendal did it. There is plenty of proof in the book where Asmodean actually died. Rand actually felt the source being used as Graendal killed Asmo.

Callandor: 2003-01-09

Moiraine only had one angreal. She placed the other angreal outside the ter'angreal in order to lure Lanfear in front of it so she could jump her into it like she was shown as one of her possible futures from Rhuidean. And yes, Rand and Lanfear both had angreals, but angreals dont just bring everyone up to a certain level they simply multiply that persons yield of the One Power. So, even if they both didnt have angreals it wouldve been the same result. Thats what I meant by Rand holding his ground.

Callandor: 2003-01-09

Umm... if Rand felt the source being channeled at the same time as Asmodean died that dont mean that it was Graendal did it. And do you have page numbers for this evidence? Because I myself have NO idea what you mean about there being a phrase when Rand senses female channeling.

Daishan: 2003-01-10

Where is that Graendal evidence!?!? I would LOVE that because I think Graendal did it! Oh and Callandor, Moiraine had TWO angreal. One of the last sentences before she disappeared was (quote:) "The Forsaken had an instant's warning, enough to turn before Moiraine struck her, CLAWING THE BRACELET AWAY." (caps added of course)

Fascinating...

Callandor: 2003-01-10

I think you misunderstood me Daishan. What i meant was that Moiraine had one angreal that she was USING. The other angreal she placed just outside the doorway to lure Lanfear there. So she did have two angreal but she was only using one at the time and Lanfear was using the other.

jason wolfbrother: 2003-01-10

Daishan while not conclusive evidence I found an interesting quote concerning Asmodean and Graendal.

pg(175) " 'You know as much as I do', Graendal said blithely...'Myself, I think Lews Therin killed them.'...The thought did not seem to disturb her"

While not overwhelming evidence, it does draw attention to Graendal concerning the death of Asmodean. She seems to smug when talking to Sammael. She is trying to bait him, playing her power games by making him think she knows less than she really does.

Daishan: 2003-01-11

lol! I think you misunderstood me, Callandor :-)

What I mean is that Moiraine, if going to fight with Lanfear, would use her own angreal (which is the woman carving that she always has with her). The other angreal is the bracelet, which she placed at the foot of the doorway for Lanfear. Lanfear is using that as she is fighting Rand. But when Moiraine pushes Lanfear through the doorway, she "claws away the bracelet", she literally takes it away from Lanfear. And thus as they fall through the doorway she has both angreal and Lanfear has none.

About the Graendal quote; I have always thought about that conversation with Sammael with mixed feelings. In that same conversation she speaks about "Lews Therin" killing them one by one, and she is "surprised to hear her own voice so hoarse." That implies she's afraid. This can be explained two ways (that I thought of :-) ).

1. She is afraid of Lews Therin since he killed a lot of Forsaken

2. She killed Asmodean and is afraid Sammael will find out she's lying

Well of course for my position I would favor the latter, but common sense implies the former so actually that conversation is a "flaw" in my theory. But thanks anyway ;-P

Callandor: 2003-01-11

Ok then. If she clawed the angreal away from her then Lanfear was most certainly burned out, she was at the limit with the angreal and then just lost it while still channeling that amount most likely. Can anyone say overload?

Alright I did misunderstand you Daishan, but even if Moiraine had both angreal she got it WHILE they were falling through.

Now assuming that that doorway isnt TOTALLY different from the one in Tear then Moiraine and Lanfear wouldnt go into the Finnland and see each other. Remember Rand, Mat, AND Moiraine went into the doorway in Tear and they NEVER saw each other till they were outside of the doorway and all had left the Finnland.

jason wolfbrother: 2003-01-11

Good point Callandor. In WH we have Cyndane's pov and she thinks nothing about Moraine. Considering that Moraine is the reason she "died" we should have gotten anger or hatred or something, but all we get is the quote about how she has less power since the 'finns held her.

Daishan: 2003-01-12

I couldn't agree more, really. So if we have "established" that Moiraine and Lanfear didn't kill one another in a "OP struggle" in the world of the Finns, let us move on to the next issue. Lanfear didn't get out of Finnworld, or if she did, she was dead. We "know" this because she was reïncarnated and there is no other major instance in the book that would suggest her death at a later time.

So if Lanfear didn't die in a channeling battle, the Finns must have done it (she states herself that "the Finns got hold of her"). Like Callandor said, and also because of my "balefire" post just 2 posts up or so, Lanfear probably didn't see Moiraine on the other side. So why didn't Moiraine get her three wishes? And if she did, why didn't she wish to go outside?

Anubis: 2003-01-12

First thing. "when the fins held her" does not imply that they killed her. In fact, it implies the opposite. Held, past tense, meaning she got away. Granted they could have killed her, but i doubt it.

Now the finns seem to have a sick sense of humor, esp the foxes. They hang Mat, even when he has asked for a way out, probably just to spite him. (think about it, he thinks hes getting out, but then not... but then rand comes around and ruins it). Lanfear values being powerful. If you think that needs proof, then you need to read the series. So what would piss lanfear off? Not being the strongest anymore, in fact, just becoming like any of the other chosen, would probably really piss off mrs. ego bitch. And i like the idea that she was killed by the shadow. Prolly moridin. There has been clear tension between the two and now he clearly has the upper hand and she has a new body. Hmm.

Also, she does not necessarily get three wishes. it is a bargain. she makes requests and offers a price. if she does not do this then a price is chosen. maybe they choose the price anyways. She definatly wished for freedom, she is an AOLer and knows all about the finns. What else if anything she wished for is beyond me.

Now lets take Moirine. She is HARD CORE for rand. Her goal is him winning the LB and that is all. Her wishes probably all where to that end. This helps with the failing with out a woman dead and gone. Maybe the finns still hold Moirine. Maybe she will be rescued. Maybe when wished to be freed in time to help rand when he needs it. Who knows?

Dedicated Gregor: 2003-01-18

Anubis, i think you've just given the strongest evidence for the theory that Moiraine is in Finnland and must be saved. She is hardcore for Rand, and her highest goal is to win the Last Battle. Because of her knowledge concerning the doorway in Tear we must assume that Moiraine has some knowledge of the Finns, however limited it may be. So perhaps she made the same mistake that Mat did, in that she though it was the same as the doorway in Tear; she set no price for herself, and while the Finns do grant her requests to help Rand, they don't let her go.

Moirane wanted to stay with Rand as much as she could and barely ever let him out of her sight. The Finns twisted sense of irony would reason that they kept Moiraine frome being with Rand to help him reach Tarmon Gai'don, but granted her requests. Sorry if this got way off the subject of Graendal killing Asmodean, but Anubis got me thinking.

Harry: 2003-01-30

I still do not see how Moiraine will be saved because if she is being kept with the Finns what is your theory on how the "real" word will know she is still alive and will require saving.

Back to Asmodean's killer, I think that RJ's mention that the answer is obvious points to only a couple of people but everyone's theories seem to be quite credible on why this can or cannot be each of them.

What is your opinion about my theory that RJ wrote this scene with a simple killer in mind, but he won't confirm to us who it is because with the fantastic theorists here and the depth of their proof and timelines it cannot be who he orginially wrote it to be?

jason wolfbrother: 2003-01-31

Sorry but RJ has repeatedly said he knows every thing that is to happen in his world and nothing we have posted has any affect on what he writes or decides to write.

Lewin: 2003-02-03

I must say i'm very interested in Callandors point about Lanfear burning herself out.. If she lost the angreal during the fight, she couldn't have handled that much of th power. Might that be connected to her wishes or possibly to her reincarnation?

Jeebus: 2003-02-03

Off the topic, I don't know why Moiraine couldn't have just balefired Lanfear like she did with Be'lal...

What people need to do is to sit down and work out the Cluedo method - I think it was Graendal with Balefire in the kitchen. People need to work out a motive, a scene of the murder, the whereabouts of Asmodean's body and how he was killed according to the evidence in the book, without any conjecture and no support from any book signings!

SDog: 2003-02-04

Just a few points...

1) RJ said specifically that someone had figured out who killed Asmo, but he NEVER SAID WHO! He said it's been posted on the Internet...but there are thousands of WoT websites.

2) The idea that Lanfear "said she would kill Asmo" as proof that she did is ludicrous. She said she'd kill all of them, Asmo included. She singled Asmo out simply because he was helping Rand. "Even Asmodean..." Even he, at the bottom of my list, is worthy of death.

3) Again, where is this quote about Rand feeling the Source when Asmo died? I think someone would have noticed that a long time ago.

Ryu: 2003-02-05

What about the Gholam? Couldn't some one released it and Asmodean know about it? Oh, and Moiraine didn't kill Lanfear with balefire because she had gone into the Aiel city's rings and they told her to take Lanfear into Finnland.

Callandor: 2003-02-06

No way it was a gholam. Remember how Fel died. He was riped apart to pieces.

Now Asmodean died and left the words You?No! in the air. Now if your getting ripped to pieces, 1: its not a quick death, 2: its VERY friggin painful, so you wouldnt just say You? No! and not say another thing.

And would you address a gholam as you???

Ryu: 2003-02-07

Well, how else woould you address the Gholam? It?, NO! And Asmodean could have channeled enough to break the shield and destroy his own body before he got torn limb from libm.

Callandor: 2003-02-07

If Asmodean could've been able to break his shield then he most likely would've already. And there is no reference by Rand that Asmodean had channeled enough to become reconizable that he had broken his shield.

Plus the shield only allowed Asmodean to channel a little amount of the power. And we have seen that it takes TREMENDOUS power to break most shields already in place. Lanfear said that the shield would break down gradually over time, but was she saying this as false hope for Asmo?

And if not how long had it been since the shield was in place? A month? Two maybe? From what Moggy did to Liandrin (sp) I kinda doubt that it would disolve that quickly to allow that much power.

Ryu: 2003-02-10

He might not have broken the shield before for two reasons:

1.Rand would have felt it.

2.Where would he go? He would have to stay in the waste long enough to learn it well enough to make a gateway. And live long to make a gateway. And even then where could he go? Everyone would be hunting for him then. He can most likly act pretty well becuase he has survived as a Forsaken this long. Men can't feel how strong others are remember? They learn when others draw as much as the power as possible. Now, don't quote me on this but how close was Rand to Asmodeans when he was killed. I mean Rand was tired and distracted so he might not have noticed the source being drawn becuase of the above reasons and the distance.

Theron: 2003-02-11

Asmodeans killer...

Robert Jordan loves everyone sqirm with this little question. He has publicly stated that it is painfully obviose who the killer is and can't understand how no one can get it. And I quote:

"I don't know why people have a hard time figuring that out. To me it seems intuitively obvious even to the most casual observer. The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much. It's probably bad for me."

This means that all the clues are there, people are just missing them and jumping to conclusion based on half truths. Everyone, Please let us put our heads together and solve this! Let us go over all the clues with a fine tooth comb and LOGICALLY put the puzzle pieces together. Let us put this theory (and our anguished suffering) to rest!

jason wolfbrother: 2003-02-11

Anguished suffering? Hahaha :) I do not suffer because I know who did it. Graendal is the only that logically makes sense. Lanfear's threats are just that, empty threats. She was otherwise occupied in *finnland at the time of Asmodean's demise. She and Graendal were the only possible culprits. Graendal is guilty. Lock her up and throw away the key.

Dedicated: 2003-02-11

Didn't RJ also state that Asmodean was toast and his killing was of no real consequence. Essentially, just another red herring for all of us to chew on.

Theron: 2003-02-11

If thats the case Dedicated, then RJ is certianly getting the last laugh. And Jason Wolfbrother, I am willing to believe your theory but I need to see more proof. (It is possible that I overlooked something). :)

jason wolfbrother: 2003-02-11

You want proof. From only the books leading up to and including TSR where Asmodean dies. It had to be a someone weilding Power of some kind to dispose of the body. We as readers are unaware of the existence of Slayer, Taim's presence in Caemlyn and/or status as a Darkfriend(whether he is or is not Demandred is irrelevant to Asmodean's demise), Arangar, Osangar, or Moridin. Fain would not have been recognized. Sammael does not know that Asmodean is dead, the same for Demandred, Mesaana, and Semirhage. Moghedian is a prisoner of Nynaeve, Rahvin had just recently been balefired, and Be'lal was balefired by Moraine. That leaves as suspects Lanfear and Graendal. Lanfear is being held by the *finns. By process of elimination Graendal is guilty. And I must repeat that Graendal is the only one who knew that Asmodean was dead. Hope this helps. Flame away :)

Theron: 2003-02-12

Thank you Jason Wolfbrother, you have convinced me. I've found that the simple logic straight from the books makes the best proof. Graendal nis guilty.

Callandor: 2003-02-12

You said the Lanfear was held by the Finns and I agree, but she couldve easily used one of her wishes to leave Finnland and kill Asmodean. The Finn then couldve easily taken Lanfear back because one of her wishes was completed, hence how the killer got out. So in my mind Lanfear cant be ruled out and is the suspect, not Graendal.

And if you are doubtful that Lanfear would waste a wish to kill Asmo, think that Rand had just be dueling with her, she was flipped out nuts, and Moiraine pushed her through the Ter angreal doorway. Now Landfear knew that Asmo was a bad teacher, hence the safest for Rands teacher, but Rand shouldve been easy pickins in Lanfears logic, but he held his ground. Now come on, anyone would take that as a MAJOR slap in the face, and Lanfear isnt one to be slapped.

Theron: 2003-02-12

What about Moiraine? Do you think that she would have just stood by twidling her thumbs while lanfear had her way with the world, so to speak. Besides, there are much better wishes she could have made, even going flipping nuts. Like wishing Rand loved her with all his heart, that she ruled the world, about a million other things that would have let her get him at her leisure.

Callandor: 2003-02-12

Everything has a limit and I think things like that would be a MAJOR breach of that limit. However, Lanfear wishing to be right where Asmodean would be and be able to kill him seems VERY possible to me.

Allie: 2003-02-12

If you assume that the foxes are similar to the snakes, then questions concerning the shadow would be punished. If that's the case, lanfear would have been punished if she asked to be able to kill asmo. Going on an earlier reply, the worst thing for lanfear probably would be to become a weaker channeler. Also, lanfear prides herself on her looks, so maybe the finns took both these things away from her. That could be how she killed Asmo, if she did. Also, it may explain the "You? No!"

jason wolfbrother: 2003-02-12

Yes Lanfear could have wasted one of her wishes on killing Asmodean. Why? just wish for freedom and then go kill him at leisure. She is so much stronger than him there is no comparison. However, I don't think that Lanfear would been able to 'escape' the *finns that quickly. How long was Mat in the doorway. Remember Rand spent 3(I think don't have my books at the moment)days going through his history. Mat went into the doorway only a few minutes after Rand disappeared. When Rand emerged Mat was hanging in the tree. Now RJ has stated that Mat died. However, If he had been dead for more than a few minutes Rand would not have been able to bring him back to life. Therefore, I postulate that Lanfear was not(released, escaped, killed and reborn, whatever) on the same day that Asmodean was killed. Thus she is not a suspect and Graendal is guilty. Another point that I would like to make is that I think you are reading too much into her threat to kill Asmodean. The context of the quote was her and Rand challenging the Creator and the DO both. She said they could kill all the Forsaken. She specifically mentions Asmodean because he would be Rand's teacher. She personally has no animosity towards Asmodean. Her hatred is directed towards Rand. If she did use one of her wishes to go and kill someone it would have been Rand. The POV we get from Cyndane in WH proves this. Sorry to disappoint all the Lanfear fans but she is innocent.

Dedicated: 2003-02-13

I have agreed with jason wolfbrother the entire time, but I've never put my two cents in until now. Now Jordan has stated that it is OBVIOUS who Asmodean's killer is. The only suspect we have that has anything obvious pointing to them is Graendal (she seems to know in the conversation with Sammy that Asmo is dead when no one else does). The only way she would know he was truly dead would be that she killed him herself (i.e. actually witnessing his death).

Theron: 2003-02-14

I have been reviewing the fith book for more information on this theory. One of the peices of evidence for the Graendal killer was that Rand felt channeling when he died, and well this is bogus. If it is there, I can not find it, so until someone put's it in qoutes with the page number where he fealt this channeling, it should be discounted. (It could have been posted on a different theory, but I remember reading it).

And what's Graendal's motive? Why would she risken a confrontation with Rand or someone in his camp just to kill Asmodean. I think that she wouldn't take the risk, and merely send a lacky. Remember that the forsaken like to do things through inter-missionaries in order to accomplish goals and lower the risks to themselves. (If they want a piece of the DO's remade world they have to be alive to get it!)

jason wolfbrother: 2003-02-14

Graendal's motive? How about Nae'blis? She did not go to Caemlyn for the express purpose of killing Asmodean. I think she was there to look through Rahvin's stash of *angreal hoping to find an *angreal for women. She was in the storeroom when Asmodean stumbled upon her. Taking advantage of his momentary confusion she killed him. He had a standing warrant out for his death from the DO and the only thing keeping him alive all this time was his proximity to Rand. She was simply capitalizing on this opportunity to get in the DO's good graces.

Callandor: 2003-02-14

If that is true why wasn't Graendal made Nae'Blis? This was before Moridin came onto the scene so why isn't she Nae'Blis?

Theron: 2003-02-14

A Pantry! Asmodean was going into a pantry to look for some decent wine. Why would Rhavin hid his Angreal, if he had any (he didn't use one during the fight with Rand, which means he probably didn't have any, or at least, any he could use)in a pantry? A pantry!

jason wolfbrother: 2003-02-14

"Only she knew that the Great Lord had all but promised to name her Nae'blis" is that enough proof Callandor. Theron why not in a pantry? Like you said who is going to look there. Haha

Dedicated: 2003-02-14

What jason wolfbrother and I are trying to say, is that Greandal was certain of Asmodean's death. Now the only way to be absolutely sure someone is dead is to KILL them. She knew Asmo was dead, before it was known to other Forsaken.

Greandal could very well have been vying for Nae'Blis. She didn't know Moridin existed at the time. There was a standing order from the DO, "HE WHO BETRAYS ME, SHALL DIE THE FINAL DEATH", to eliminate Asmo, because he was helping Rand.

Finally, I mean no disrespect, but Callandor I must voice my opinion of the Lanfear theory. I just don't see how this could have been done. Cyndane remarks about the Finns "holding" her. Implying maybe a period of time longer than the 24 or so hours between Lanfear's death and Asmo's. I just don't think Lanfear (as big as her ego is) would waste a wish on Asmodean.

One more thing, I don't buy the "Rand felt the power being used at the time of Asmo's death thing". Especially if it was Greandal, because Rand wouldn't have had the goosepumps, he was too far away. Can somebody quote that, because I can't find it?

Graendalboytoy: 2003-02-15

Graendal's motive may have been simple. She stumbled into Asmo, and didn't want him to tell Rand that she was there and possibly helping Rahvin. She don't want none of Rand...She even mentioned packing up and running if he ever turned his attention to her. She killed asmo to save herself from Rand...Self preservation is the Motive...Being there provided oppurtunity...And she did know that asmo was dead...Besides,she is not afraid to use the OP on other Forsaken when necessary, just ask Moggy and Cyndane.

Elder Haman: 2003-02-15

Some points:

1: Asmodean was not in a pantry, he was looking for a pantry and got lost.

2: Lanfear never told the other Forsaken that Asmodean was shielded- thus any Forsaken meeting him would expect a powerful opponent (and desperate too).

3: I vaugely remember this reference to channeling- I think it was something about how Rand felt the Wise Ones, it was while he was looking down at Asmodean just before he was killed- but maybe I'm remembering wrong- it's been a while since I read that book.

Theron: 2003-02-15

There are several new points that need to be brought up:

1)Elder Haman, I know the point that you are speaking of, and checked up on it. During the battle, Aviendha channeled, which he could have felt, and in the dream world nynaeve channeled through moghedien, which he could have felt. However, after this point, there is no reference to Rand ever feeling another person channeling (That I could find). The reference to channeling was supposed to be felt by Rand sometime around asmodeans death. If there is one, could some one please put it in qoutes with the page number, because untill they do, that piece of evidence must be discounted as there is no support for it.

2)Elder Haman brought up another good point, who ever went for Asmodean had to be expecting an asmodean without the shield. Which means they would not go rushing into him. Now a female channeling (such a greandal) would have been felt by Asmodean (and possibly Rand), so surprise would not have been on their side. Asmodean felt no channeling, so whoever killed him, had to do it with out the power.

3) wouldn't the wise ones respond, or Egwene or Aviendha, if they felt a female channeling where they were not supposed to. The book clearly shows that females can sence when another is channeling, and can usually guage how much is being used. A gateway is a complex weave, requiring vast amounts of the power. If greandal did it, she had to walk in, kill Asmodean (who she had to suspect was at full strength) and leave with out uing the power.

Callandor: 2003-02-15

There is not a reference to channeling around the time of Asmos death. I have read that section 3 times and there isnt one single reference to channeling done by men or women, besides Rand telling Bashere about the call for Ashaman and I dont think thats what you mean, so there is no channeling when Asmo died known to us. But it was a channeler that killed him due to the speed of it.

jason wolfbrother: 2003-02-15

Unless you are in close proximity to the person channeling or they are channeling enormous amounts of the One Power you do not feel them channel. Furthermore Graendal was not expecting to run into to anyone. When Asmodean opened the door, she was just as surprised as him but she had the door opening to warn her. She could have quickly embraced the Source, channeled a killing weave, woven a Gateway and been gone before anyone else would have even sensed her. We know that Asmodean was killed with Power of some sort. It could have been done without anyone sensing anything. Graendal is still the only viable suspect.

Dedicated: 2003-02-15

Asmo didn't feel any channeling being done, but that doesn't eliminate Graendal as a suspect. It's evident from his reaction that Asmo's killer was someone he recognized and was not expecting. Maybe his killer wasn't expecting him either. I still like the theory that Graendal was rooting around for Rahvin's stash of OP objects, was just as surprised to see Asmodean as he was to see her, and eliminated him on the DO's standing order.

One more thing, even if Asmo had been expecting the attack, it probably wouldn't have done him any good. He was still shielded at the time, and nearly anyone wielding the power could have killed him easily.

Tigraine: 2003-02-15

Not to bring up an old, dead idea, but couldn't Graendal have simply Inverted her weaves so that they couldn't be sensed by other channelers. She already does it with her Compulsion.

Dragons Shadow: 2003-02-16

I may have to go back and reread, but wasn't Aviendha the ONLY female channeler of Rand's party that was in Caemlyn at the time? Wouldn't she have investigated a woman channeling? And, remember, she can read residues. She would have been able to tell Rand EXACTLY what had happened to Asmodean.

This argues that the killer was NOT a female channeler. Also, if the killer had been a male channeler, Rand would have at least responded. So, perhaps Slayer IS the killer. Maybe he was under the orders of Greandal, which would explain how she KNEW he was dead.

Then again, maybe I really DO need to go back and re-read.

Theron: 2003-02-16

I was not saying that there was a mention of Rand sensing the OP, but that someone else thought it was there. I could not find it either, and suggested that it be discounted as evidence.

Beryl Logan: 2003-02-16

Didn't RJ say that the answer was really, really obvious? Well, I know both Lanfear and Graendal have really good evidence going towards them and against them, but I think that the Lanfear idea involves a little too much thinking. Sure, it makes sense but I really don't think its THAT obvious, it takes some infering.

Theron: 2003-02-18

We have to take what RJ says with a grain of salt, as he may just be having fun with us. I do agree with you about lanfear not being the killer through, because there are still to many holes and 'I thinks' in the theory for now. I am working on a theory about how Asmodeans killer could not have used the OP. And will submit it soon (a day or so) from when this is posted. This may help put some new (and possible correct) theories out there on who the killer is.

Janstince: 2003-02-20

I'm new to this site, but this is one point I've discussed before. First of all, I don't think it was Graendal. True, she seems certain that Asmodean is dead, but she is just as certain that Lanfear is. Unless she was there when the *finn killed her, or she was even at the docks when Lanfear and Moiraine disappeared through the doorway, she wouldn't be certain, even if her own eyes and ears reported it. Second of all, I doubt it was Lanfear. She does get reincarnated as Cyndane, and therefore must have died. The most likely explanation of her dying is that she got killed by the *finn. I don't think Slayer did it, seeing as how he got shot and barely made it out of the Two Rivers alive. The gholam was possibly mentioned before, when Barthanes was ripped limb from limb, but we don't even know of it's existence until LoC, when Lews Therin's memory comes to Rand while he's listing shadowspawn for Taim to watch out for, and even then we don't know what it can do until it kills Herid Fel in the end.

One thing i would like to propose is that perhaps he was killed using the Dark One's power, since only a gholam could sense that, and that makes any of the Forsaken a possibility. Moridin uses the DO's power, which can only be told by the saa across his eyes, but i believe it was Demandred when he met the "new Nae'blis" that said he used the DO's power when he needed, but stayed away from it when he could because it is so addictive and rotting.

Dedicated: 2003-02-21

Now that's an interesting idea that I'm not sure anyone else has mentioned. The TP would work for some of the circumstances surrounding Asmo's murder (the speed and suddeness of his death, the fact that no other channellers, male or female, felt OP being used). The problem is Jordan hasn't introduced us to the TP (well, we don't know what the TP is yet, even if we've seen it used) yet. Jordan said it was obvious, and someone killing Asmo using the TP would be rather less than obvious at that point in the series.

Callandor: 2003-02-22

I also agree that it would solve a lot of problems if the TP was used, but the point of the killer being obvious right from when Asmo died, and the fact that really only saw the TP being used was in TDR with Ishamael using it. And at that point, we had no clue what it was and we didnt know that ALL Forsaken could use it.

Forsaken known not to have killed Asmodean:

Demandred: LOC, Prologue, The First Message, pages 15-16, **Lanfear has vanished without a trace, just as Asmodean did.** Highly doubt he could lie RIGHT in the DOs presence, even thinking.

Semirhage: LOC, Chapter 6, Threads Woven of Shadow, 141, Sem thinks **Asmodean. A traitor, and so doomed but he really had vanished...** and later **If the Great Lord moved her here secretly, might he not be moving Moghedien or Lanfear, or even Asmodean?** She doesnt know Asmo is dead.

Moghedien: Kinda busy being under forkroot effects in Salidar if not already bound by the Adam by Nyneave, so she couldnt be in Caemlyn.

Aran gar + Osan gar: Busy being dead at that time.

Mesaana: Hadnt heard a damn thing about her till after Asmo died.

Shaidar Hadran: First off, didnt know he existed till LOC when Aran gar and Osan gar came back. Secondly, would Asmo recognize the superfade? I highly doubt that.

Sammael: LOC, Chapter 6, Threads Woven of Shadow, 133, we have big evidence "Rumors! Lanfear has been aiding al Thor since the beginning, if you [Graendal] ask me. I would have had his head in the Stone of Tear except that someone sent Myrddraal and Trollocs to save him! That was Lanfear; I am certain. Im done with her. The next time I see her, Ill kill her! And why would he kill Asmodean? I would if I could find him, but he has gone over to al Thor. Hes teaching him!** Sammael was in pure fury at this time so I HIGHLY doubt he would be lying then.

Ishamael/Moridin: As near as we can tell, he was still in the process of being reincarnated.

So the remaining Forsaken are Lanfear and Graendal.

And if your thinking about a Gholam or Slayer or even Padan Fain it wouldnt work either:

Gholam: Would have to be sent by a Forsaken, and we have got rid of all but 2 of the Forsaken with almost total certainty. Second, look at how the Ghoalm killed Fel, WAYYYY much more messier then fast. Third, didnt know about Gholams till LOC, so its not obvious. Fourth, and this is more opinion but, would Asmo call a Gholam you??

Slayer: Main point: Didnt know extent of Slayers abilites till WH. This REALLY fails the obvious part so no way it could be Slayer then.

Fain: How would hw know who Asmo even was? He doesnt work for the darl hes a rebel to them (remember that Slayers job has mainly be to KILL Fain). Secondly, he kills with the Shadar Logoth dagger. Look at how Mat killed one of the guards in TGH when Rand fights Tuork. He dies relitivly fast, but he still flops around and bubbles for lack of a better word. So its not as fast as Asmo dying.

Matrim: 2003-02-23

I have been on this site for some time but when i read this thread i decided i had to say something. I don't have the book with me but i have the answer to the "Rand feeling channeling during Asmo's death" part.

Graendal is the obvious killer, with all the theories already said by everyone above. The channeling part is here... Some time after Asmo's death(a few minutes, maybe seconds), Rand shivered (not the exact quote but something like that). Next, RJ talked about the cold wind. However, Rand is in the process of being taught how to "not feel the cold", so why would he have shivered? and what makes us think that he shivered BECAUSE of the cold? he shivered because there was a woman channeling to kill Asmo at that time, but he thought it was the cold.

Dedicated: 2003-02-23

Where does it say that Rand shivered? Could someone PLEASE qoute this. I can't find it and I've been over that god-forsaken secton at least ten times. Oh yeah, and Rand would have felt the cold IF he did shiver. Rand hadn't learned how to ignore the cold yet. Taim taught him how to do that.

Janstince: 2003-02-23

No, there is no mention of Rand shivering at all in FoH after he fights Rahvin. The one who shivers is Asmodean: FoH.56.960 "Idly-but with a shiver, too-[Asmodean] wondered whether being reborn in this fashion made him a new man." That's the only mention of shivering in the last chapter. It could be that Graendal caused that shiver by opening a gateway to the pantry, but then Aviendha would have sensed her channeling, since Aviendha is practically in the center of the palace and could feel a woman channeling anywhere within. If Asmodean felt it, then Aviendha would, too.

Callandor: 2003-02-23

Ok... Im still at an impass with Daishan over the two angreals thing. From the time Rand leaves his rooms near the end of TFOH till Moiraine pushes Lanfear through the ter angreal doorway, there isnt a single reference to Moiraines own personal angreal. There are references to the angreal Lanfear uses and the one Rand uses but none to Moiraine.

**Lanfear standing on the wagonbed, blazing bright as the sun with saidar, framed by the twisted redstone ter angreal as she stared down at Rand, a pitiless smile on her lips. She was turning a bracelet in her hands. An ANGREAL; unless Rand had his own ANGREAL, she should be able to crush him with that. Either he did, or Lanfear was toying with him. It did not matter. Moiraine did not like that circle of carved age-dark ivory. At first glance it seemed to be an acrobat bending backwards to grip his ankles. Only a closer look would show that his wrists and ankles were bound together. She did not like it, but she had brought it out of Rhuidean. Yesterday she had taken the bracelet from a sack of odds-and-ends and left it lying there at the foot of the doorframe.

Moiraine was slight, a small woman. Her weight did not disturb the wagon at all as she pulled herself up. She winced as her dress caught on a splinter and tore, but Lanfear did not look around. The woman had delt with every threat except for Rand; he was the only corner of the world she acknowledged in the least right then.

Surpressing a small bubble of hope-she could not allow herself that luxury-Moiraine blanaced upright a moment of the wagon tail, then embrassed the True Source and lept at Lanfear. The Forsaken had an instants warning, enough to turn before Moiraine struck her, clawing the bracelet away. Face to face, they toppled through the doorframe ter angreal. White light swallowed everything.** (The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 52, Choices, pages 892-893 paperback)

Damn thats a long quote... but needed. RJ will always tell if a person is drawing through an angreal or sa angreal by putting something like **Drawing the Source through the angreal blah blah blah**, but that didnt happen here. So where is this angreal???

Yes, Moiraine clawed the angreal from Lanfear but she didnt have one of her own first off, so in the end Moiraine had 1 angreal and Lanfear had none when they fell through.

juitzhead: 2003-02-24

I like the idea that Shaidar Haran killed Asmo. Im gonna go with a HUGE assumption that we have already met him in TDR prologue when Jaichim meets the fade in his rooms. Dont have exact quotes but the fade seems to exhibit amusemnt towards JC, something no other fade does. Now, the WOT guide states that Shaidar Haran is the only one that shows a 'black sense of humor'. Now, Shaidar also has all the qualities that were needed to kill Asmo w/o being detected. He can get in undetected, can stop(?)channeling, we all now how quick fades are, hence, the quick death. My next point will need confirmation. Can anyone confirm that the horses fades ride are 'normal' horses just like all others and they can be move through shadows with the fades, and can this be the way that Asmo's body was disposed off?

Like i said, huge assumptions.

Janstince: 2003-02-25

Well, in TEoTW, the fade that comes to the Two Rivers is riding a horse. Rand sees him on his horse while walking to Emond's Field with the brandy for Bel Tine, and then when he looks around, the horse and rider are gone, with no sign of either. So, I do believe that those horses can ride shadows like the halfmen.

Dedicated: 2003-02-26

SH killing Asmo solves alot of problems of his death as well, but this theory has been suggested already and been put down. There are two reasons. One, how in the world would Asmo recognize SH? There is no reason to assume that Asmo knows who and what SH is and would recognize him at first site. Second, we don't know SH's unusual abilities yet. Remember, Jordan said it was obvious who the killer was SH is not an obvious choice.

Oh yeah, interesting that you would bring up the smiling fade in the TDR prologue. I was wondering about that myself, as I was just reading that the other day. Good eye.

TheNetweaver: 2003-02-27

On the topic of Shaidar Haran, I have to say I've been brooding on this for a while. The chapter involving Alviarin in CoT must be taken into account. It's claimed that the two reasons SH can't be the killer is because Asmodean woudln't recognize him, and we don't know SH's abilities. First off, his potential is clearly shown in the chapter "A Mark" in the latest book. He was toying with Mesaana. At the very least, he blocks people around him from the source. I'm willing to bet he has some kind of access to the True Power as well. As for the other disproving point, there's no evidence to say Asmodean wouldn't have encountered SH before. Just because the other Forsaken are yet to meet him doesn't mean Asmodean couldn't have, particularly if SH realy is in TDR. It's merely speculation, but it would explain why Asmo both recognized AND feared him (the blood drains from his face), the same as Mesaana feared him in CoT. Now, RJ claims that he left evidence as to who killed him 2-3 books ago. Haran's first definite appearance is in LoC or CoS, is it not? That would be two to three books ago.

Personally, I still think Lanfear did it, but I don't think SH can be ruled out. As for any other Forsaken, I really don't see the motivation. Why would Graendal risk going to Caemlyn so she could could hide in a wine cellar, that she somehow knew Asmo would visit, to kill a shielded coward? Especially when Rand has just balefired one of the more powerful Forsaken. I would use the same argument against any Forsaken with the exception of Lanfear. Claiming that Asmo was his teacher, so therefore they wanted to prevent his teaching, just isn't good enough. Any of them had months to do it before then.

Callandor: 2003-02-28

Its the obviousness that rules out SH. Reasons it cant be SH are

A: Asmodean wouldnt recognize him when the first time we know of ANY Forsaken meeting SH is in LOC with Aran gar and Osan gar.

B: If we did meet SH in TDR, then how are we to draw the conclusion of **Oh yea... that Myddraal back in TDR must have killed him, its so obvious.** How are we supposed to know that RIGHT when Asmodean dies?

It just doesnt work out for SH to be the killer. It solves things but leaves way too many open holes.

Tigraine: 2003-02-28

In response to Netweaver, Graendal would risk her skin because we see her do the exact same thing very soon thereafter. When Sammael's possible death reaches Graendal, she immediately Travels down to Illian, where Rand and company are still based out of, and quickly searches through Sammael's belongings for two reasons:

1) She wants to see if he has any angreal or sa'angreal attuned to women

2) She wants to get rid of any traces that could link her to Sammael in any way. Remember, she fears Rand enough to pack up and run away as soon as he sets his sights on her and Arad Doman.

Coupled with the fact that Graendal stated that Asmodean was dead when no one else knew until later and her overwhealming need to cover her trail, she is, in my opinion at least, the most logical suspect. Although not always true, more often than not, the simplest answer is the right one.

Daishan: 2003-03-01

As to the whole "one or two angreal" thing; I agree that there is no reference whatsoever about Moiraine's own angreal. But the fact that she knew she would have to fight Lanfear implies to me that she would've prepared as much as possible. She would've known she needed strength; that's why she clawed away Lanfear's bracelet in the first place. What other reason could she have for that, since the only thing an angreal does is increase someone's strength in the power. If Moiraine did not have her angreal, where is it? (<== this is insanely funny if you have followed the huge political discussion on the message board...) It's unlogical for her to first leave her own angreal in one of the wagons, for example, and next make such an effort of clawing Lanfear's away. Therefore, I have to conclude she used her own.

TheNetweaver: 2003-03-01

I like some of the logic behind the Graendal argument, but I still don't think there's enough. I don't remember any mention of Rahvin having an angreal stash. There certainly wasn't a time where Rahvin told Graendal about it. The reason she went to Sammael's stash is because she knew he had found a substantial cache. She was Sammael's companion when he offered the Shaido Wise Ones some ter'angreal. he may have told her about the stasis box as well. If you can show me any evidence that Rahvin had some type of angreal/ter'angreal collection, and that he might have hid it in a food pantry, I'll believe Graendal did it.

Dedicated: 2003-03-01

Asmo was LOOKING for a pantry. He hadn't found it yet. We don't know if his death scene occurs in a pantry or a storeroom or what. Oh yeah, why would Rahvin tell Graendal he had an OP object stash. Remember, the Forsaken don't trust each other. If he did have a stash, Rahvin would have kept it to himself, and not told anyone (especially other Forsaken) about it. Greandal was searching for the stash for this exact reason. She thought Rahvin was lying when he said he didn't have any angreal and such.

jason wolfbrother: 2003-03-01

All of the Forsaken were looking for *angreal stashes. That does not mean that if they found a stash they would tell the other Forsaken. Remember they are competing with each other for Nae'blis just as much as trying to defeat Rand. Graendal was visiting Caemlyn on the off chance that Rahvin MIGHT have had a stash. She was not looking for Asmodean. Him opening the door where she was and her killing him was simply an added bonus. She is still the only viable suspect. Read some of the previous posts in this thread. You might find the evidence that you are looking for.

silverwolf: 2003-03-08

No one seems to mention that Graendal had received secret orders from Shayol Ghul. "Only she herself knew that she had made her own trip to Shayol Ghul...Only she knew that the Great Lord had all but promised to name her Nae'blis, a promise sure to be fulfilled with al'Thor out of the way." The only really important part in that is that she made a secret trip to Shayol Ghul that no one seems to know about.

dave: 2003-03-08

I think you may have gotten stuck in a rut here, maybe, if I may say so. "You. No! His words hung in the air", (or something like that, I don't have the book here) doesn't have to mean he was evaporated by the OP or something similar. Maybe somebody just slit his troath?

And does it have to be Lanfear or Graendel? Maybe Padan Fain or Sammael?

jason wolfbrother: 2003-03-09

Please read above posts before responding. That being said, Asmodean would not have recognized Padan Fain. And Sammael was unaware of Asmodean's condition. He did not know he was dead, thus could not have killed him. The only one that actually KNEW that Asmodean was dead was Graendal. The fact that the word "...still hung in the air." does in fact mean that he was killed with some form of Power. As the only viable suspect is Graendal he was killed with the One Power, specifically Saidar. Again read the above posts before responding. Most likely your point has already been made. This post is almost 90 posts long.

Graendalboytoy: 2003-03-10

I have read all the posts.... And ,incidently, I agree with Wolfbrother.

Callandor: 2003-03-12

Yes! IT MEANS HE WAS KILLED WITH THE ONE POWER!

The only mention we have to a persons voice still hanging in the air after their dead is when Moiraine balefires Be lal in TDR. If you slit his throat he would still be gurgling with blood in his throat (does nobody watch movies?) and the voice would be cut off, plus not to mention the fact that if you slit someones throat it still takes about 3 mins from them to die of blood loss AFTER falling unconcious. So we would still have thoughts from Asmo if his throat was cut.

HE WAS KILLED WITH BALEFIRE HENCE KILLED BY A CHANNELER!

Mairan Sedai: 2003-03-14

I agree that Asmodean was killed by a channeler, probably a female one. Lanfear had motive but no opportunity; Graendal also had motive and a POSSIBLE opportunity. It has been mentioned several times that Aviendha would have felt a female channeling. Could it have possibly been Aviendha? If Moiraine could figure out who "Jasin Natael" really was, so could she. Asmodean would have recognized her as Rand's girlfriend, and he would have been very surprised. Now, to debunk my own theory, I don't think Aviendha knows how to weave balefire. Anyone else's thoughts?

Janstince: 2003-03-14

This is a really good point, actually. Aviendha, why didn't I think of that? Firstly, she would almost certainly know who Jasin Natael is from the ter'angreal rings she went through. Although most of those memories go away, the important ones stay, and we know that Moiraine, who went through the rings at the same time, also knew who Natael was. Secondly, it wouldn't have to be balefire, although the evidence from the LoC is convincing. Asmodean and Rahvin both dying "THE FINAL DEATH" (LoC:The First Message:page 5 paperback). I've been running this through my brain forever, and I've been wondering why it has to be a darkfriend?

However, there is evidence for the Graendal theory there, as well. First off, the fact that the DO knows that Asmodean is dead in itself tells us that if it was not a DF, one was watching, because the corpse wouldn't be left there, even if it wasn't balefire. Secondly, I'm searching for where she said she went to Shayol Ghul herself without any others noticing. If she went before Demandred, then it would be clear who told the DO that Asmodean was dead, but I need a quote to run over. At any rate, no time now, gotta run.

Daishan: 2003-03-16

The DO has a connection to Asmodean's soul (the infamous black wires). I'm guessing that connection would tell him whether Asmodean is dead or not, moreso if it was balefire because then Asmo's thread would be burnt and the DO would feel his connection being 'severed' so to speak...

mandarb: 2003-03-16

It couldn't be Aviendha. She is talking to Mat. Asmodean gets up from playing his harp and idly heads towards the small door. Aviendha couldn't have been infront of him. Not only that, but why would Asmodean be suprised to see her? She has been around him alot and he would have recognized her. So, it couldn't be Aviendha.

Rand-althor: 2003-03-16

I have a few things to say to disprove a few theories. First of all, that anyboby could possably balefire Asmo is impossible. Both Rand and Aviendha were close enough to feel saidin/saidar being channeled in large enogh amounts to create balefire. Also the DO cant feel Asmo through the 'black wires' because rand severed them while fighting him in Rhudehan. A possible way of killing him is the same way that the head of Elaynes bodyguard did(sorry cant remember his name) in the street, stabbing him then smashing his head. This would have left blood, that could then have possably been cleaned up by a lot of things, cloths or one power or anything. Or even the killer could be experienced enough keep blood from spilling at all. This gives no evedence of who, but a possable way of death that is more possable that balefire by someone hoping that Rand and Aviendha wouldn't notice.

jason wolfbrother: 2003-03-17

Neither Rand nor Aviendha was close enough to feel anyone channeling. Rand might and I stress might have felt another male channeling but he only gets the "shiver" when he is in the actual presence of a female channeler. Aviendha was not close enough to feel anyone channel in the palace. Remember she is outside in one of the gardens sitting by the pool. She is preoccupied by all of the water and not paying attention. Plus she had no idea that Asmodean was who he was. She thought and continues to think that he was simply the gleeman for the Dragon Reborn. The rings gave her glimpses of her life both with and without Rand. Asmodean is not important to her future and would not have been involved with the 'test'. Aviendha is not a suspect.

Daishan: 2003-03-17

Oh man that was about my stupidest post ever, sorry for wasting your time :)

But I'm not sure Rand or Aviendha would have felt channeling. Rand might have been too far away, Aviendha too, and in addition I believe there were some Aiel Wise Ones in Caemlyn at the time. So female channeling wouldn't be a big surprise to Avi.

Rand-althor: 2003-03-17

Balefire seems to take a large amount of the one power. This means that it could be sensed at a farther range. I wouldnt say that this diproves that it was a channeler, but I would say that it wasnt by balefire as some people have said. Possably it was a channeler who gatewayed into the palace, found and killed him, then gatewayed out with the body. I believe that this is more believable than the balefire theory because as we see when the Dark One asks Demandred if he would use balefire in service, Demandred seems as though he is afraid of the effects.

Mairan Sedai: 2003-03-17

The question is, how did Moiraine find out who Jasin Natael was? She might have guessed, but how? And if it was through the rings, then why? He wasn't important to her future, either. If it WAS through the rings, then Aviendha could have found out, too. Maybe she saw a path where Asmodean killed Rand.

So, here's my theory. Aviendha gets out of talking with Mat and takes a route through the palace that circles around Asmo (remember, he's just moseying along , and she would be hurrying), lies in wait for him, and when he opens that door, he sees a black-veiled Aiel. The "You! No!" could also be interpreted as, "What the heck? This Third Ager who doesn't even call herself Aes Sedai is going to kill me!"

Yes, I realize this is all conjecture. But RJ did say it was obvious right from the time he died. (On the other hand, if it was THAT obvious, we'd have figured it out by now...)

Callandor: 2003-03-19

Thing is that Asmodean wouldn't have tried to kill Rand at all. We have this from Lanfear. In TFOH, Chapter 6, Gateways, page 124, Lanfear is talking to Rand when she says ***Besides, I watch his dreams on occasion. He dreams of you triumphing over the Great Lord and putting him up beside you on high.***

So Asmodean WANTS Rand to win. He wouldnt want Rand dead at all.

Janstince: 2003-03-19

I'm still not so sure about the channeling bit. Aviendha has learned enough by now that she would be able to feel somebody channeling in the palace. Also, the gardens are pretty much in the center. The courtyard, I believe. Lemme see here...nope, no saying where it was. On the other hand, there is no mention of wise ones, and we know Rand is powerful enough to sense somebody channeling Saidin in a palace, i.e. he could feel Rahvin from outside and made a gateway to the exact spot. So that at least rules out large amounts of saidin and saidar. As for small amounts, well, that reopens the floodgates.

However, the fact that Graendal knows about Asmo's death is not in itself special. We see that the DO knows that Asmodean is dead, and he tells Demandred, who could easily have told the others at the meeting, where Graendal was. Demandred apparently did not tell the group that Asmo was dead, because we see in Semi's POV later that she thinks he has just vanished. However, Graendal does mention that she went to Shayol Ghul alone, and the DO could have told her. So that in itself is not proof that her knowing Asmo is dead means she had to be there, however wonderful it would be to have it over and done with. Sorry, but I need more proof.

Now on with the theory :). If I can find my gd book...(i swear, this must be some kind of record. I cleaned my room today and organized my books, except for LoC-because i'm rereading it now-and I've already lost it...and the winner is: on top of my computer...mutter...) Anyway, I'm not so sure that by "obvious" RJ meant it would be obvious to us. For instance, in TSR, we see Shadowspawn fighting Shadowspawn in the Stone. At first, we think, Lanfear. Sammael sent a contingent to the Stone, and Lanfear has done something to part of that contingent, or has brought her own. But, in LoC, we find out that Semirhage was ordered by the DO to send Myrddraal and Trollocs to fight Sammael's. We know it wasn't Semirhage, because she thinks that Asmo has disappeared, but what I'm trying to say is that it can be so obvious, but that just doesn't seem to be RJ's way of "obvious."

Weird Harold: 2003-03-20

Rand-althor 2003-03-17:

"Balefire seems to take a large amount of the one power. This means that it could be sensed at a farther range. ... Possably it was a channeler who gatewayed into the palace, found and killed him, then gatewayed out with the body."

A point against a Gateway: I think Gateways take more power than Balefire and would be more noticeable. The incoming gateway wouldn't be felt for more than second, but the outbound gateway would.

Points for a gateway:

1) not all "gateways" can be felt bcause they aren't made with the True Source.

2) At this point in the story, only the Forsaken would recognise more than the fact there was a brief powerful weave made. They wouldn't recognise it as a Gate or suspect it. (Rand can only "skim" at this point -- IIRC and Aviendha hasn't "invented" her first either.)

WinespringBrother: 2003-03-20

Point of fact: Av made her gateway in a very cool chapter ;) (TFoH,Ch31) before Asmodean was killed (TFoH,Ch56)

besides, Graendal was the culprit anyway :)

Mairan Sedai: 2003-03-20

Just one more tiny nitpick about the Graendal theory. Assuming it was her, Asmodean recognized her instantly--i.e., she was not using a Mask of Mirrors. Would she go around the palace undisguised? Like others have said, she's expecting a Forsaken at full strength, and if Asmo saw her two seconds before she saw him, that could be bad.

WinespringBrother: 2003-03-20

The recognition argument works for/against anyone powerful enough to have killed Asmodean instantaneously... but it also works in Graendal's favor, if she didn't expect to run into Asmodean, and killed him reflexively to keep him from revealing her presence.

Mairan Sedai: 2003-03-21

Well, maybe not Asmodean specifically, just some random person happening to recognize her. How would she know who all is in the palace? There could be anyone, and an Aes Sedai would very probably know who she was.

Oh, and Asmodean may dream of being beside Rand and all, but if push came to shove, he would kill him and pretend he was loyal to the DO all along. The guy valued his life more than anything.

WinespringBrother: 2003-03-22

Graendal could walk around the palace undisguised - not too many people in this age have ever seen her, so wouldn't know her from eve. Only people from her age like LTT, Birgitte, heroes of the horn and other forsaken would recognize her.

As for how would she know who is in the palace, she's been basing her plans on inside information. She must have spies within Rand's camp. Plus, she's been to the Caemlyn Palace before, working with Rahvin. And she might have gone there to loot upon finding out about Rahvin's death, like she did with Sammael.

Seeing how Asmodean found her behind a closed door, in what apparently was a wine pantry or on the way to a wine pantry, maybe she was physically concealing herself at the moment and had let her "mirror of masks" down.

mandarb: 2003-03-22

One thing. I don't think that Asmodean recognized the killer instantly. Remember, the quote says: "You? No!" I would like you to notice the question mark at the end of the first word. I think that it took him a second to see who it was. Then, once he knew, he didn't want to know. Thus the exclaimation point.

mandarb: 2003-03-22

One thing. I don't think that Asmodean recognized the killer instantly. Remember, the quote says: "You? No!" I would like you to notice the question mark at the end of the first word. I think that it took him a second to see who it was. Then, once he knew, he didn't want to know. Thus the exclaimation point.

The-True-Dragon: 2003-03-22

one thing that could have happened instead of balefire or messy throat slitting would be simply a club of air to the head, or anything that wouldn't be messy and wouldnt use a lot of power. whoever it was had to know that there were channelers in the palace and would be careful. And if only a little bit of the power was used it would pretty much go unnoticed even by Avi who was close by.

The-True-Dragon: 2003-03-22

O ya and who said the body is gone maybe one day some I will want some wine and get some preserved asmodean in a keg instead.

jason wolfbrother: 2003-03-22

Asmodean did recognize his killer. The "You? No!" is surprise. He did not expect to run into Graendal in Caemlyn. He was surprised to see anyone there, much less one of the Forsaken. That explains the 'You?' The 'No!' is explained by his recognizing her about to balefire him. Be'lal had a similar reaction when Moraine balefired him.

Janstince: 2003-03-23

Another thing. At that range, with any amount of balefire, there would probably be a nice little hole in the wall of the palace. I think people would see it there, have the purple afterimage. Asmo is dead because the DO is not going to ressurect him, thus he has died "THE FINAL DEATH."

As for who it would be, you still haven't shown me proof it was Graendal, or even a channeler. We know that the gholam itself is capable of just ripping out a throat, and then it will drink all the blood away. Of course, we say that the person died too quickly, so how about he just got his head smashed in with a jimmy stick or baseball bat?

As for Slayer, well, we have seen his powers. The more I think on it, the more that becomes clear. We saw him leave Perrin's POV, then go into TAR and kill wolves in the real world, then come back when Perrin shoots him in TAR. We hear about his history and all in LoC, which could really explain why he has it in for Rand (i.e., his sister's son has come to claim his birthright, while all he does is what the Forsaken tell him to). We know he has been talking with the Forsaken, because how else is he going to get orders? I don't think anyone except Myrddraal and the Forsaken (and Shaidar Haran) are allowed in the Pit of Doom.

Oh, one more bubble-bursting point: RJ recently said that he left evidence 2-3 books ago? Sorry, but that doesn't include LoC now that CoT is out. That would be PoD and ACoS. Therefore, maybe we can just throw out the Graendal theory on the fact that I really don't remember any references in ACoS to Asmodean. Or maybe we're just all doomed to keep turning this over in our heads until we have aneurysms in our sleep and it becomes some national shock that 50 people died of similar causes on the same night or week :P.

juitzhead: 2003-03-24

A point on channeling balefire. When Moraine and Co are fleeing Illian in TDR, she uses balefire against the shadowhounds. Now she says something along the lines of "i hope he didnt notice us" (he being Sammael). Now by this time they are miles away from Illian. Im not sure if you can control the size of the balefire weave or its a 'one size kills all' sort of weave. If its the latter, then anyone would have felt it. If not, then only the more powerful channelers in the palace. This i hope ommits balefire as one of the possible murder weapons.

jason wolfbrother: 2003-03-25

The size of the balefire weave can be controlled. Moraine can only make a weave that removes the last few seconds of the 'thread'. Rand can control his better. When he balefired the darkhounds in Rhuidean he only removed about 5 minutes of their 'threads', but when he balefired Rahvin he removed almost an hour of his 'thread'. Strength in the Power is related to the size of the balefire weave. Moraine can barely weave balefire. Rand has enough strength to level a city if he so chose. Graendal, being one of the Chosen and much more powerful than Moraine, could and did control the size of her weave. When Rand balefired the darkhounds in front of Mat's door, the door was untouched. Graendal could have just 'erased' Asmodean and nothing else. As a Chosen she would have the knowledge and ability to control her weave. It was Graendal with Balefire in an unknown room.

Callandor: 2003-03-25

A person must be able to change ti size and strength of balefire. Rand uses an IMMENSE amount of balefrie when he killed Ravhin, however he also uses a little stream to kill the dark hounds that were attacking Mat in Rhuidean.

Now there is almost a guaranteed amount of the power to create the weave of balefire no matter what the size. We just dont know how much of the source male or female this takes.

Dedicated: 2003-03-26

Hey folks I'm back after an untimely abscense. In response to someone stating above that there would be a hole in the wall of the palace after Asmo was balefired. No there would not be a hole as long as the channellers knew what they were doing. Rand uses tiny streams of balefire (after he kills Rahvin) to get to Mat and the others at the end of the battle. The streams strike the trollocs and fades and then dissappear. They don't keep on going, as that could have potentially hurt Mat and the others. An AOLer who has used balefire before would probably know how to do this. So this does not eliminate Greandal as a suspect.

Korell: 2003-03-27

Im sorry i must admit i did not read all of the above this time i just wanted to point out that the answer to who killed asmodean is somwhere within the Theoryland website i have seen it and it was not who i thought but interesting none the less.

Xenosaga-Zigguraut8: 2003-03-30

I think Graendel or Lanfear killed him. But Graendal, he expected that a Forsaken would try to kill him. Lanfear he would be startled, but why couldnt it be a Aiel or a guard. The source rand sensed could have been Asmodean. Or a darkfriend could have, it could have been a BA too. Or a Dreadlord or a shadowspawn. Lanfear could have been saving her last wishes and starting out with petty wishes, and since it touched the shadows, She was changed somehow.Theres a million different people that could have done it. Howsabout if Egwene found out and didnt know Rand knew. Or same for Aes Sedai or Wise Ones. Or Rand could have used a gateway to kill him finally because he has learned enough. Correct me if im wrong, but why cant a non-Darkfriend or Dark Associate have found out and killed Asmodean. The "No, You!" was a expression of startlement. So why would he be startled if a Forsaken tried to kill him.

jason wolfbrother: 2003-03-31

Okay. One more time for all those too lazy to read the whole thread which number 118 now. It had to be someone using Power of some sort to have killed Asmodean so quickly with his words still hanging in the air. Therefore the list of suspects is not that long. Possible killers as of The Fires of Heaven when he was killed. RJ has said all the evidence needed was there. (I have included evidence from LoC because it is there we get many of the POV's and learn what each suspect knew about Asmodean's death) So the suspects are: Graendal, Mesaana, Semirhage, Demandred, Slayer, Fain, Rand, Aviendha, Moghedien, Sammael, and Nynaeve. Mesaana, Semirhage, Demandred, and Sammael are all unsure of Asmodean's status and are thus ruled out. Moghedien and Nynaeve were in TAR and then back in Salidar. They are eliminated. Aviendha did not know who Asmodean was and more importantly she was distracted by the pond. Rand had no reason to kill Asmodean and was unaware he was actually dead. He thought he had run off. We know nothing about Slayer's abilities at this point in the story. Asmodean would not recognize Fain. I have not included Lanfear or Taim on the list deliberately. As far as we know Lanfear is dead at the end of FoH and Loc gives us no evidence to doubt it. We don't meet Taim until LoC and we have no reason to suspect he is a DF or dreadlord at that point. The only suspect left at this point is Graendal. She had the ability. She had the motive: the standing order to kill the traitor by the DO. She fits the criteria and more importantly she is the only one that has no doubt as to Asmodean being dead. She knows he is dead. She made her own private trip to Shayol Ghul and was "all but promised Nae'blis". Please read all the posts before adding your two cents. Most likely we have already argued over your 'new' perspective. :)

HunterofTrollocs: 2003-04-08

I believe Graendal has the gholum, and sent it after Asmodean. She completed the order from the DO, and the gholum can not be hurt by the TS. It also has the capabilites to kill quickly and efficiently, b/c that is why the were created in the first place; to kill Aes Sadai. It fits with wolf brothers idea, and my own.

Also, this means that Greandal is the one who is trying to kill Matt and the girls in Ebou Dar/was trying, now just mat.

Callandor: 2003-04-12

Sammael sent to gholam that went after Mat and co in Ebou Dar.

A gholam couldn't have killed Asmodean because their classic way of killing is ripping someone limb from limb. Asmodeans words still hung in the air which suggest a channeler being the only person possible of killing him that fast, and that itself implies the use of balefire. The only other reference to words still hanging in air after the person died is Moiraine balefiring Be lal.

Janstince: 2003-04-19

frankly, i still don't believe that Graendal would have the guts to do it. she wouldn't have left anything tying her whereabouts with Rahvin, as she did with Sammael. That is the primary reason she went to clean out his apartments and things. She was trying to remove any evidence pointing to Arad Doman, in case Rand found stuff and decided to check it out. She is avoiding a confrontation, and that is the only reason she would risk getting near him, unless he was weak enough that she could shield him and kill him, or at least control him.

However, i was rereading LoC and found something interesting. Fain is in Caemlyn. He sent those Whitecloaks that attacked Rand. Well, it's somewhere in there. After the Whitecloaks attack him in Caemlyn, i remember Fain saying something about them being a test, that if they had killed him, he would have tortured them and kept them alive for years. So we know that Fain was in Caemlyn around the time Rand moved his bidness there. And Fain certainly has animosity towards Asmodean. "Gray Men meant the Chosen. Would he never be free of their interference?" (LoC:Letters:572 pb).

So Fain is not only upset at Asmodean for teaching Rand to channel, but has also hated him for interfering in his plans to do whatever he wants to Rand. Not only this, but Fain also reveals, in a roundabout way by this statement, that he has dealt with one of the Chosen. It seems as though he has just ridden himself of an iritation, and now another just like it pops back up. At least, that's what "would he never be free of their interference" sounds like to me. Maybe it just means that he is tired of them trying to control him, although it doesn't seem that any of the Forsaken have come after him, or else he'd be dead or they would, since his name is on the LIST. However, Asmodean would probably recognize Fain, since when they were released, they were apparently given lists of DFs that have served faithfully and those that have strayed from the path and must die. There was mention of a bounty on Fain's head set by Ba'alzamon...somewhere. Can't find it atm, but I'll be looking.

melchizedek: 2003-04-25

No, Lews Therin is Asmodeans killer. Jordan made it very obvious... He calls Lews Therin "Death" a couple times in that book, and in the next. That is when he really starts to fight Rand for control... and Rand is drinking wine right before Asmodean dies... on his way to the winecellar. Lews Therin gets a moment of control from Rand and thinks "I have time to kill one Forsaken before Randyboy wakes back up... who is closest?" And Asmodean is closest, unfortunately for him.

Callandor: 2003-04-27

RJ has stated that death isnt a pun or a name of any character so its not LTT. Plus its more then once hinted at that if LTT gains control of saidin he takes over permenatly.

perlchild: 2003-05-29

And I was about to vote for Moridin for this as reason for his Saa: TP balefire a lot, get lots of Saa from DO... And of course, we don't know how long it takes to get a new body... or if once you get a new body, you have to spend time getting a "new secret identity" out in the people or somesuch (I haven't read COT, but I strongly suspected Cadsuane of being Mesaana)

But the rest of this thread convinced me, it's Graendal

Callandor: 2003-05-29

Mesaanas a coward in the WT, shes been there since about LoC. And Cadsuane is Cadsuane. She seems to harbor nothing but good intentions for Rand.

Mark: 2003-06-02

Asmodeans killer is Aviendha. Everybody seems to be thinking to hard. Any reference to anything after the event in the books is irrelevent.

Callandor: 2003-06-02

Avi had no clue who the heck Asmodean was, and I myself highly doubt that the Aiel have any recollection of Forsaken names besides the general name they call all 13. There is no need to scare little kids there with tales, they concentrate on their ways. AVI DIDNT DO IT!

juitzhead: 2003-06-16

lol, i cant believe this thread is still going!! Just join a faction and be done with it because no one is going to figure it out until RJ says so. I think im gonna take a stroll to the Factions section and join Frenzy's "Apathy for Asmodean's Killer" faction.

Shadow Bane: 2003-06-18

Just wanted to say although it is HIGHLY unlikely Avi killed asmodean it could have happened.

1)She died at Caemlyn so Asmodean would be surprised to see her.

2)She is supposed to be really strong in the power

3) She knows how to travel, she said she couldn't remember but who knows?

4)She was seen near Asmodean before he died.

Personally I think the killer was Rand. Right before Asmodean died Rand was talking to Bashere about "things that must be done" and he seemed pretty unconcerned about the death of Asmodean. But really when you think about it it could be alot of people so I guess we will have to RAFO! (groan)

Callandor: 2003-06-19

1. Rand is the only killer that RJ has said didnt kill Asmodean, AND LTT DIDNT DO IT EITHER!

2. Avi didnt know who the heck Asmodean was, just that she knew him as Rands gleeman.

3. Asmodean would have a memory of dying and not just seeing Avi dying. He wouldnt be surprised by a memory.

Avi didnt do it, Rand didnt do it, LTT didnt do it.

Shadow Bane: 2003-07-02

But Fain did.

Callandor: 2003-07-02

TITLE: Winter's Heart, CHAPTER: 22 - Out of Thin Air

The wound throbbed, burning more than it had at first. Releasing his cloak to the wind, Kisman pressed his left hand over the bloody slash in his sleeve. His arm felt swollen to his touch, and hot. Suddenly he stared in horror at his right hand, stared as it turned as black and bloated as a week-old corpse.**

TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 45 - Blademaster

Mat put an end to it. As the Seanchan reached out his hand, Mat slashed it with the ruby-hilted dagger. With a curse, the soldier leaped back, looking surprised. And then he screamed. It chilled the room, held everyone where they stood in astonishment. The trembling hand he held up in front of his face was turning black, darkness creeping outwards from the bleeding gash that crossed his palm. He opened his mouth wide and howled, clawing at his arm, then his shoulder. Kicking, jerking, he toppled to the floor, thrashing on the silken carpet, shrieking as his face grew black and his dark eyes bulged like overripe plums, until a dark, swollen tongue gagged him. He twitched, choking raggedly, heels drumming, and did not move again. Every bit of his exposed flesh was black as putrid pitch and looked ready to burst at a touch.

For the last time, Fains dagger is too bloody slow to kill Asmodean. Fain didnt do it.

Shadow Bane: 2003-07-06

What about Fain's 'tricks'? and couldn't he have just STABBED Asmo in the chest or head? He wasn't neccessarily killed with the OP.

Callandor: 2003-07-06

Why would Fain kill Asmo? If he knows about Rand being in Caemlyn and IS in Caemlyn at the same time, he would know him as Jasin Natel, not Asmodean.

So why kill him? To make Rand be disjointed and sad or create a personal hell for him? There are a LOT better targets for that (just in the fountain there is Mat and Avi).

So Fain needs prove of location, knowledge, and reason and he has NONE! And he is still too slow, Rand remarks on stopping the dagger Bashere threw as a **simple weave of Air**. Simple, so Asmodean could probably stop Fain even with his small Power.

Fain didnt kill Asmodean.

Shadow Bane: 2003-07-06

Why would Fain kill Asmo, maybe because he hates all forsaken? And maybe he would like the man who is teaching Rand how to become strong in the OP dead? Why let Rand get stronger? Fain has just as much reason to kill Asmo as anyone else.

juitzhead: 2003-07-07

ha ha keep going callandor, you'll get through to them one day...

Jiana: 2003-07-07

I spent a lot of time wondering about RJ saying that Asmodean's killer is obvious. I had thoughts similar to Tamyrlin's in that whatever he said, he left it as ambiguous as possible. But doing a little research, I found out that it really IS

Callandor: 2003-07-07

Shadow Bane you are still missing one GLARING! problem: Fain didnt know that Jasin Natel, the Lord Dragons Bard, was in fact the Forsaken Asmodean.

Unless, by some miracle that Fain was in Cairhien or with Rand from Rhuidean, AFTER coming from Tar Valon, and learned that Asmodean was Natel, and THEN traveled to Caemlyn in the time to arrive in the Palace and kill Asmodean, and then take care of that little itty bitty problem of disposing of a body, in the middle of the palace no less, and leave without being seen.

Forgive me if I say: Not Friggin Possible!

Shadow Bane: 2003-07-07

Hello Asmo didnt mask himself-he couldn't cause of Lanfear- so anyone who knows what he looks like would recognize him. Fain has been to Shayol Ghul AND has a part of the DO's essence in him, whats to say he wouldn't recognise him?

Callandor: 2003-07-07

The fact that he went to Shayol Ghul BEFORE the Forsaken were freed, and that the DO just gave him the ability to find Rand, Mat, and Perrin.

juitzhead: 2003-07-07

What does the DO's essence have to do with recognising Asmo?

Last time Fain had been to SG was before Asmo was released from the prison. Dont think they would have met.

Eelfinn Ty: 2003-07-07

I've read all the replies, and i don't think anyone has put this forward. If Graendal used the TS(power from the DO) to create balefire, neither rand nor nin would have sensed it. And being so close to N'blis Graendal may have been desperate enough to us the TS and balefire if that's what it took. What do u guys think?

WinespringBrother: 2003-07-08

According to a q and a session in the Netherlands, RJ said that Asmodean never met Slayer, so that should clear that up.

Shadow Bane: 2003-07-09

Callandor-

Ive always thought the DO's essence in Fain was beginning to manifest its self. Fain might recognize a forsaken because of that, to tell you the truth i hate asmo and could care less, the guy was a loser. If it wasn't Fain, Avi,Rand, Slayer, etc. then who was it?

Callandor: 2003-07-09

Lanfear of course. And Shadow check out the boards for why Fain couldnt have done it.

Jiana: 2003-07-09

Demandred would be a good bet, based on a conversation between him and the DO which went something like this:

DO: The one who betrayed me will die the final death.

Demandred: As you wish great master.

I think this was at the beginning of book six, but I obviously need to do a reread, my memory is as bad as Mat's for being fulla holes. :)

Callandor: 2003-07-09

**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Message

"Rahvin is dead, Great Lord. Yesterday." There was pain. Euphoria too strong became pain quickly. His arms and legs twitched. He was sweating, now. "Lanfear has vanished without a trace, just as Asmodean did. And Graendal says Moghedien failed to meet her as they had agreed. Also yesterday, Great Lord. I do not believe in coincidence."

THE CHOSEN DWINDLE, DEMANDRED. THE WEAK FALL AWAY. WHO BETRAYS ME SHALL DIE THE FINAL DEATH. ASMODEAN, TWISTED BY HIS WEAKNESS. RAHVIN DEAD IN HIS PRIDE. HE SERVED WELL, YET EVEN I CANNOT SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE. EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME. For an instant terrible anger filled that awful voice, and—could it be frustration? An instant only. DONE BY MY ANCIENT ENEMY, THE ONE CALLED DRAGON. WOULD YOU UNLEASH THE BALEFIRE IN MY SERVICE, DEMANDRED?

Another point pricked him. The Great Lord already knew how Rahvin had died. And seemed to know more of Asmodean than he. "As you command, Great Lord, so shall I obey." His muscles might be jerking, but his voice was rock steady. His knees began to blister from the hot stone, yet the flesh might as well have been someone else's.**

Demandred knows that Asmodean disappeared YESTERDAY, but not died. Since this is after the day Asmodean died, it is not possible for Demandred to have done it (and he wouldnt/couldnt lie in the DOs presence).

rubbernilly: 2003-07-10

Nice bit of work there, Callandor.

This was the evidence against Demandred from the beginning. People need to investigate more before they start slinging the accusations, methinks.

Shadow Bane: 2003-07-10

Ok Callandor if it was Lanfear, I have two questions. How long was she held by the Elfinn, and Was she immediately Cyndane when she emerged. If so why would Asmo recognize her?

Jiana: 2003-07-10

Not slinging accusations, rubbernilly, just putting ideas out there. :) Thank you Callandor for the transcript. To me, Demandred is still as good a bet as Lanfear, Slayer, Bashere, or any of the other characters that have been suggested. And...I DID mention that I need to do a re-read. :)

Callandor: 2003-07-10

Read all the replies and if not satisfied check out Lanfear: Asmodeans Killer.

Mathwin: 2003-07-14

I'm going to sound kind of arrogant here, but there is one MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR piece of evidence that has thus far been overlooked and which explains everything, including why Robert Jordan thinks Asmodean's killer is obvious.

The person who began this thread is correct--it was in fact Slayer. This can be determined by tFoH, certainly, but is even further elucidated in later books when it is made crystal clear what his job is.

Ahem. I would like to bring up a passage from tFoH, at the end of Chapter 41. I'm not going to quote (for paperback editions, this is page 600) but I'll summarize--Rand is looking out on the battlefield at the Shaido outside of Cairhien and sees a man streaking through the air faster than any normal human could ever possibly move. He throws a spear from a distance no normal human could throw, which goes through two men with one throw. Then, he vanishes inside the Cairhien walls. The Power has not been used.

When Asmodean goes into Cairhien, where this guy happens to be at the time, he is killed. Coincidence? I think not.

We already know how Slayer moves from Perrin's experiences in the wolf-dream: he streaks along in the exact same way. We know that he has superhuman abilities and he doesn't use the Power. It was Slayer that Rand saw. He went into Cairhien.

Also, we already know that the DO uses assassins to kill those who betray him--like those Black sisters Elayne and Nynaeve capture in the Stone. Somebody sneaks in to their cell when not even a gray man could get by the guards (according to Moiraine) and kills them both. Like when Barthanes is mysteriously killed for helping Padan Fain. This is Slayer's job. We find this out later, true, but we already know what kind of assassins the DO employs.

Also, to further the case that it should be clear what Slayer's function was before having it explicitly stated, it wasn't exactly coincidence that he ended up in the Two Rivers in the first place. Someone expected Rand to be there. Someone expected him dead. Slayer was the representative that the DO happened to send.

And, of course, Asmodean would recognize him. And any channelers would be noticed when they wove a gateway.

To review: Slayer was in Cairhien when Asmodean was killed. SLayer's job is to kill Darfriends who betray the DO. Asmodean was killed by someone who could do it in seconds and neatly dispose of the body. If this person had used the Power, either Rand or one of the Wise Ones would have detected it, so he wasn't killed with the Power. It is very obvious.

rubbernilly: 2003-07-14

mathwin -

...WHAT?!

Rand sees the spear fly further than any man could throw it. He does *not* see a man streaking.

When he watches closer, he sees another spear and he realizes that it came from the walls of the city. He sees that it is basically a ballista.

Later, when they gain the city, we see that this ballista was one of the inventions made in the school that he founded. The spear is completely explained by natural means, and requires no hypothesizing on our part: it's clearly laid out in the text in black and white.

Perhaps you should have quoted.

Rand-althor: 2003-07-14

Just wondering,

1) How would a MAN streak through the air at all?

2) we have no reason to believe that Slayer is in Cairhien

3) even if he was, Asmo died in Camelyn, not Cairhien

Callandor: 2003-07-14

Ok... dead wrong but ok.

Main things have been said:

1. Asmodean was killed in CAEMLYN not Cairhien.

2. It was a arrow/spear throw from a machine from INSIDE Cairhien.

Now one thing that hasnt been brought up:

3. Slayer and Perrin streak in TAR not the Real World. They cant do that in the Real World, so it obviously cant be Slayer that was the spear.

stromgard: 2003-07-16

Ehh... just for the facts: Lanfear was not killed and resurrected by DO!

First of all: her body was given to her by the 'finn, and secondly, they also took most of her strength/potential in the OP. In comparison, Moridin, Osan'gar and Aran'gar hasn't lost any of their power. Aran'gar can even channel saidin! ...though it would be nice to know how she escaped from the tower of Ghenjei. Most likely Moridin rescued her...

Callandor: 2003-07-16

We dont know for sure what happened to Lanfear, all that we know is shes in a new body: Cyndane.

Aran'gar is a male soul in a female body, thats why she channels saidin. Not because of the Finns. Aran'gar has never been to he Finns as far as we know. Same goes for Moridin, and Osan'gar: they were brought back to life by the DO not the Finns.

rubbernilly: 2003-07-17

stromgard -

"facts"?

You think very highly of your own opinion. I don't blame you, it is a good and healthy opinion - see, all the fingers and toes are there. But it is still just opinion. As mentioned just above, all we know is that Lanfear is in a new body. We don't know how.

rubbernilly: 2003-07-17

strom -

For kicks, read the "Lanfear was artificially enhanced" theory for alternate reasons of how and why Cyndane has less power now than she did as Lanfear.

TheDragon7190: 2003-07-17

i think it was Mazrim Taim. I think this because asmodean is killed and then mazrim shows up almost right after. or it could be the darkfreind who saved elayne (i forgot his name),the one who everyone thinks is her babies' father, because he was with rhavin at the time

Korell: 2003-07-18

TheDragon7190

unfortunatly Mazrim is not really a top suspect besides which Rand would have felt him channle and probly fried him on the spot on the off chance that he was a forsaken as for it being the DF that is now Elaynes body guard the first question in mind would be how in the world would he have gotten into the palace? after all he did not show up for atleast 3 more books maybe 2 but the biggest reason it could not have been him is the fact that at the end of FOH RJ says we should know who did it and since he was not in the books previously there is no way we could even suspect him as for Mazrim i belive he has been bumped as not having done it for more then the reason i gave but i unfortunatly cannot remember where for sure i am in the Grehndal camp not for my own reasons yet but because of a interview online with RJ but besides as it has been stated many times before the 3 most likly suspects who have motive and opurtunity are

Lanfear

Slayer

and of course

Grendahl

ranman38: 2003-07-25

I have read many threads about this, and RJ says we should be able to deduce the killer. I think in one word we can get a clue. Asmo said, YOU? not YOU! It had to be someone he was sure was dead. Who was he thinking about immediately before he died? Lanfear. But, if Lanfear is Cyndane, he would not have recognized her. So, Ishamael...? as I have seen mentioned? same deal, he wouldn't reconize him, unless it was just his clothing, and that is why it was the questioning, you? and not you! So, I come to this conclusion, it is someone recognizable, but not someone expected. So, Shaidar Haran killed Asmodean. I think! lol

Korell: 2003-07-26

Shadar Haran could not have killed Asmo because we are supposed to be able to deduce who it is at the time of his demise and Shadar Haran was not in the books until after the death of asmo as you were saying he says "YOU?" not "YOU!" that in no way indicates anything other then he was surprised to see somone there think about it if you opened a door and somone was on the other side wouldn't you be surprised? but if you knew them and knew they might want to kill you your exclemation might be the same as Asmo's now here is a point even though i dont support the Lanfear theory if she was Cyndane she could have used the Mask of Mirrors to make herself look like Lanfear just for this exact purpose. So Lanfear could have pulled it if she is not with the Fin at the time of asmo's death and he would have been surprised the same case could be made for Ishy/Mordin because he could have used the Mask of Mirrors however i think Mordin was probly busy with other things to worry to much about Asmo like trapping people in stasis boxes heh

HappyFade: 2003-08-20

Shadar Haran may have been around for a while. The fade who visits Bors in the prologue to TDR smiles and laughs, which we are later told by forsaken to be impossible. Of course they thinking its impossible as they see Shadar Haran smile and laugh. This smiling fade can be seen elsewhere in the earlier books. The prologue to TGH contains a smiling fade at the DF meeting. Later when Fal Dara is attacked, Rand encounters a smiling fade in the hallway. Ingtar(a known DF) gets Rand to leave, and then lets the fade continue on its way(we later hear the fade escaped). What is interesting in this encounter is that when Fain is being released(perhaps by the smiling fade), when he first sees his savior he says:

"You! Not you I expected."

whereas we all recall Asmodeans last words:

"You? No...

I think the similarity is something to be noted.

But back to the smiling fade. He also appears back in TEOTW if you look. If this smiling fade is SH, and if he did kill Asmodean, then that could explain SH's high standing with the DO at the beginning of LOC(lots of headroom for killing a traitor). He would surely have no trouble commiting the deed since he can travel through shadows, block the forsaken from channeling, and has other strange powers. But believe what you will.

Callandor: 2003-08-21

To repeat:

**Its the obviousness that rules out SH. Reasons it cant be SH are

A: Asmodean wouldnt recognize him when the first time we know of ANY Forsaken meeting SH is in LOC with Aran gar and Osan gar.

B: If we did meet SH in TDR, then how are we to draw the conclusion of **Oh yea... that Myddraal back in TDR must have killed him, its so obvious.** How are we supposed to know that RIGHT when Asmodean dies?

It just doesnt work out for SH to be the killer. It solves things but leaves way too many open holes.**

HappyFade: 2003-08-21

I agree it is not at all obvious that SH killed Asmodean. But I haven't seen a case for anyone which did seem obvious, else no one would still have this discussion.

For A,

I think Demendred meets SH earlier than the gars in LOC, but not by much. But if the smiling fade that appears in the first three books is SH then he has been in contact with Ishamael since TGH(prologue), perhaps longer. But even if this is the case, I'm not suggesting that Asmodean had met SH before, since most other forsaken seemed not to have. I don't think Asmodean needs to have met his killer before. Assuming it was SH for the moment: Asmodean opens the door and comes across a fade. He is surprised that a fade would be used against him since a fade would pose little threat to any skilled channeler. This is why he exclaims "You?" He is confused by such a seemily minimal threat. If he reached for the source he would find himself blocked, finding out that this is no ordinary fade. He then says "No" as death takes him.

For B, I repeat, I don't think it is obvious. But as a last point I note that all of the forsakens reactions to SH have been one of surprise and fear, which is exactly how Asmodean reacted to his killer. Plus there is Fain similar reaction to his savior(SH?) in TGH that I mentioned in my last post.

A Wild One: 2003-08-22

The few websites that I've read who killed Asmodean theories fail to mention the fact that Isam (Slayer), by appearance could be Lan's brother. The two look that much alike that Perrin and Nynaeve both make note of the likeness. (TSR: 42, A Missing Leaf & TSR: 39, A Cup of Wine).

TFOH: 56, Glowing Embers

(Asmodean) pulled open a small door, intending to find his way to the pantry. There should be some decent wine. One step, and he stopped, the blood draining from his face. "You? No!" The word still hung in the air when death took him."

I interpreted "You?" as a moment of confusion because the person he thought he recognized standing there was last seen in Cairhien that same morning.

TGH: 7, Blood Calls Blood

Luc came to the Mountains of Dhoom.

Isam waited in the high passes.

The hunt is now begun. The Shadow's hounds now course, and kill.

One did live, and one did die, but both are.

The Time of Change has come."

Slayer, who is Luc and Isam, is the Shadow's hounds. His (their) task is to kill, as directed. So it is "intuitively obvious" that Asmodean's killer was Slayer doing a "job" as directed. But who directed Slayer is another point of interest... but the DO seemed to know more than Demandred about Asmodean's fate . (LOC: PROLOGUE, The First Message)

Callandor: 2003-08-23

1. Slayer fails REALLY bad on obviousness because we had no idea the extent of his abilities till WH, and we hadn't seen him since TSR.

2. Asmodean not having to recognize his killer? Are you crazy? If he doesn't know who his killer is, then why does he say "you?" to a super tall Myrddraal, instead of "what the hell are you?"

3. It's very, very!, strongly implied that either Mat or Egwene freed Fain from the keep in Fal Dara, since they are at the same place just knocked out, and don't remember what happened.

4. And this is a point few people can prove how this would happen in ANY way if SH killed Asmodean, his words hung in the air. That implies a very, very, quick death, and no not a stab through the eye with a knife, not cutting someones throat, not a stab in the chest, not cutting off someones head, not sufficating them; it was faster then every single one of these. The only thing we have seen that comes remotely close is balefire.

Once again... Shaidar Haran didn't kill Asmodean, and Slayer didn't kill Asmodean.

rubbernilly: 2003-08-25

Callandor -

I must disagree with your statement that it is strongly implied that either Mat or Egwene freed Fain in Fal Dara. I don't think that is strongly implied at all. I think it is more strongly implied that a DF freed Fain, and that that DF was Ingtar. I think the DO knows more about Fain's alleigances than simple darkfriends do. They tend to be the last to know that Fain is no longer one of them, and he makes use of that (eg, Cairhien).

I could buy that it was Mat who freed Fain, but not because that was implied in the text. I could buy that because I also tend to buy the theory that Mat has a connection to the DO that he is unaware of (from having taken the wine in his dreams early on in the books; dreams we do not get the priviledge of seeing). However, there are trolloc words scribbled on the walls, and so every indication that the person who came to free Fain did so with a Fist of Trollocs at his back. Sounds like Ingtar leading a Fade/Trollocs to Fain to me.

I agree that it was not Shaidar Haran (I think the smiling Fade phenomena is a lapse in RJ's following of his own rules that Fades cannot smile), nor was it Slayer.

If anyone wishes to know the truth of Asmodean's death, read the theory on this site "Someshta Killed Asmodean." I think it's pretty clearly laid out there.

Asmodean: 2003-09-29

Has any of you even considered asking ME who killed me? No..you all run around pointing the finger at so and so. It is pretty obvious who did it.

Asmodean: 2003-09-30

I'll tell ya who did it. It was that B I izaganitch Graendal, that stupid trash bag two cent ho of a slut...If I ever get my hands on her again..I will rip out her stinking throat..take a massive dump down her neck and send the pictures to her current boyfriend at the time..whom ever it may be. You think she would have at least given me a fricken warning, but NOOO...the dumb ho has to go and balefire me. I think that was a little extreme...I wouldn't have cared so much if she just burnt me dead with normal fire, but the slut had to go and rip my thread out of the pattern. I had to spend one whole turning of the fricken Wheel in that stupid Soul Pool with those bastards Rahvin and Be'lal, just to be finally spun out in this fricken age. I don't even know what age this fricken is but I can't stand it. I can't even channel anymore..like this whole world is one big fricken steading. It is all Graendal's fault. Here you all go blaming Slayer, Lanfear and fricken Moridin. I haven't even MET fricken Moridin as Moridin..I only knew him as Ishamael. I never really liked Ishy..but I don't see the point in blaming him when it wasn't his fault. And Lanfear?...don't get me wrong..I can't stand the b****, but she is innocent. She was thankfully very much indesposed in Finnland at the time. And Slayer?..why?..what he do? So what...he killed a few Aes Sedai..big deal. You all get a P.O.V. of his monkey ass in WH...and he gloats about killing those Aes Sedai. If he killed one of the Chosen..don't you think he would have gloated a little more about that than some puny little Aes Sedai?

The fact if...Graendal did it..her fault..end of story. She was very much in the palace at the time..her and that bastard Sammael. Rand walked right past them..they were disguised as servants. Where is Rand's logic on that one? Two servants in a palace that was infested with Trollocs and Myrddraal, the only servants in the palace. The fact that the whole palace was filled with shadowspawn is enough to tell everyone that Rahvin was well aware of Rand's decision to go after him instead of Sammael. You all knew Rahvin had an alliance with Graendal, Lanfear and Sammael. Lanfear(stupid slut)thankfully was outta the picture(props to you Moiraine, you are the only decent Aes Sedai.) So that leaves Sammael and Graendal to back Rahvin up. Sammael was the original choice for bait..but the last minute idea to go after Rahvin forced the 3 to improvise and form a new plan. Rahvin be bait..Sam and the beotch link and take out Rand from behind. Well those two..being the backstabbing pieces of crap that they are...let Rahvin and Rand duke it out...considering the loss of iether of them would be a good thing. Rand chases Rahvin...passes by Sam and Gran...those two hide in the "Wine Pantry"..Rand goes into courtyard(same one I was sitting in)..chases after Rahvin a little more...with the aid of Nynaeve(shes ok too I guess..she seems to hold her own against Moghedian)...the two of them kill Rahvin..balefiring his candy ass into the Soul Pool. Sammael...decides he has more inportant things to do..leaves somewhere in the confusion(too much channeling going on for anyone to know the difference) leaving Grandal in the pantry to fend for herself.

Then there is me, minding my own business in the courtyard..just chillen..ya know? All I wanted was a fricken drink...a little wine..some tabac perhaps? So me and my harp left the courtyard(I enjoy playing...but Mat and Aviendha don't appreciate what I do.) So I walk into a hall..openwhat I thought was a pantry door(Big mistake on my part..as we all know) And there she is..I was a little surprised, Graendal hanging out in a little dark room by herself. She didn't even say hello..she just balefires me. Now there was no fricken need for that..I would have shared the wine with her..even though I cant stand her.

So because of her..I sat swimming for the next Wheel turn with a bunch of other balefired souls. I have never met a more bitter group of people in my life. With the exception of me of course. I am VERY bitter. I am a whole new evil in itself..worse than Fain. I would mop the floor with his weak ass..I would hit him so hard..his doctor will be digging teeth out of his ass for a week. And that dagger? The doctor will be digging for that aswell.

If any of you see Graendal...let me know.

Callandor: 2003-09-30

**Rand chases Rahvin...passes by Sam and Gran...those two hide in the "Wine Pantry"..**

So, they were hidden as servents for several hours? In a wine pantry?

**Sammael...decides he has more inportant things to do..leaves somewhere in the confusion(too much channeling going on for anyone to know the difference) leaving Grandal in the pantry to fend for herself.**

We have seen how Sammael and Graendal work together in ACOS, and when one leaves, the other usually does too; not to mention the fact that they would've stayed in the pantry for again several hours. And why stay? Why? To kill you by accident? No way.

And you might want to concider cleaning up your language. We have all been balefired before so don't go so over the top with it.

Laguna Loire: 2003-10-01

HAHA...thats awsome. I think Asmo had a very creative post. He supported his idea of Graendal being the culprit in a very unique way. Different from all the other posts and I think everyone has to give him credit for creativity (even you Callandor)

I too am a very firm Graendal believer and Asmo used many good points. This seems more possible than Lanfear using a wish idea. RJ said obvious at the point of death. When Lanfear fell through...readers were led to believe they were dead, So at the point of Asmo's death...it was obvious that Lanfear was dead at that time. Callandor, you seem to be very firm on your Lanfear dit it, But I would have to say Asmo's theory was more convincing. He used a style no one else has. His language was rather humorous. I belive the only real words he didn't edit were words like ass and bastard, and last I knew..those words were said on basic TV. We are all mature here and should be ok with hearing those two words. No need to bash his method just because it was more original and convincing than yours(no offence)

And he is Asmodean. I think Asmodean would know who killed him more than we all do. If he said Graendal did it, I gotta believe him.

Callandor: 2003-10-01

** RJ said obvious at the point of death.**

Run a search (if you can) on Graendal from TEOTW to TFOH and se how many results you get. 27. And there is one time she is on screen but not mentioned so it is 28. Look at every, single, one of them and you will not find one dang indication of any even vauge reference to any possible plans what-so-ever with Rand other then the "linking party". Lanfear betrayed them to go meet Rand and the rest were waiting for him to attack? Righttt... Lanfear went to check on Rand, Rahvin was sitting in Caemlyn, Sammael was the original target and Graendal was in Arad Doman. Why would they change the plan when they are saying before they will go through with it to plan? They wouldn't.

**No need to bash his method just because it was more original and convincing than yours(no offence)**

Method? Who cares about that? I'm saying I don't agree with his conclusions. I'm saying that if you load up all your posts with swears they most likely won't be posted.

**And he is Asmodean. I think Asmodean would know who killed him more than we all do. If he said Graendal did it, I gotta believe him.**

Unless he is Robert Jordan, I will go with my conclusions till they are proven wrong; and if they are great as long as the dang mystery is solved. Go with whatever opinion you want.

Graendal: 2003-10-02

Ok, ok..I confess. I didn't plan on killing him, it just sort of happened. I am surprised it is still a mystery. Most people, while looking at the facts, should see it is pretty obvious that it was me. I was indeed there at the time. Infact, that little terd was pretty acurate as to why I was there. Not bad Asmo, I am surprised you thought of that, you being the weakest of the Chosen and all. It was nothing personal Joar, just business, well..actually, you were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. So why don't you WINE about it..lol.

But Callandor, Give it up, Lanfear didn't do it. I did, I am guilty..I believe someone said, "lock me up and throw away the key." I can't say it enough, it was me, I finally confess..I am a murderer..oh well, it happens. Deal with it. I killed Asmodean, and I would do it again given the chance. Yea thats right, I would kill his ugly arse again. So where are ya Asmo, this time..I will even give you a warning.

Korell: 2003-10-02

I Have to say this is all quite amusing as i have said before i am in the Grean camp however i do not deny that there is truly insuficient eveidence if this were a Capitiol Murder they would still be looking at suspects because there is nothing more then hearsay so even though i am a Grean did it supporter i still say that there are other possible suspects

In Callandors Defense i would have to agree with him and you mentioned that we are all mature here i have to say that might not be true i cuss on a daily basis but never on the board because its not really needed i did think that Asmos post was amusing but Asmo would have said the word Bloody many more times and other vulgar phrases also like Callandor i think what i think until the truth comes out and Grean are you sure you Killed Asmo?

Laguna Loire: 2003-10-02

Graendal confessed. I don't see any of the other suspects coming forth.

Anubis: 2003-10-03

why does everyone think that lanfear was out of the picture? asmodean died more then 24 hours after the docks...

lanfear was "killed" by the finns... but i do not think she was out of the picture. Not too long ago we have the foxes telling saying to mat somthing like wise to ask leavetaking but foolish to not set a price.. meaning that YOU CAN LEAVE. "being held by the finns"? mat would certainly describe his experiance that way. Now why did moirines bond snap? because the gate connecting the finns world and hers was closed, snapping the bond. its a sort of red herring to make us think that lanfear is dead. so i say lanfear asked leavtaking, but failed to set a price.. (id imagine she, like mat, was quite pissed off) and her price was somthing incredibly valuable to her, being the strongest (woman) in the one power...

so lanfear goes to camelyn.. where she knows rand is.. because who doesnt. and she sneaks around. she likes sneaking around... every time we see her thats what she is doing so anyways, she wants to kill rand, but snaggs an asmodean instead. bear in mind that she is the only one of the forsaken who knows that asmodean is an easy target. grendal certianly doesnt know about asmodeans shield!!!!!!!!!! (important. so why the hell would grendal risk going after asmodean, who she may or may not be able to take, when rand is within shouting distance??? yeah, rand and asmodean VS greandel.. thats a sure thing. so anyways, back to what happend. lanfear wants to kill rand, but rand is again within shouting distance of aviendah and... i think egwene but dont quote me on that. too much risk, she knows that she is weaker, she wusses out.

so you either have my situation.. or you have this. grendal decides she wants to kill asmodean. the only reason for this is that the DO orderd it.. problem being that the darkhounds that sammael i think sent could have done this, but instead they just spied.. so continuing on. Graendel goes into the rose palace looking for asmodean (who she doesnt know is shielded). so within shouting distance of rand, aviendah, egwene... she engages him in battle. she balefires him he is dead, end of story. i say this is WAY TOO RISKY, and there is no way that greandel would do it.

Anubis: 2003-10-03

is the above post not brilliant and sexy?

i was worried that it was cut off, i think its my longest evah and the this is how your theory will appear thing only showed half... btw, i really need to learn how to make it other then one solid paragraph. sometimes it is magicly seperated how i want it.. and sometimes not. crazyness.

Dorindha: 2003-10-03

Lanfear has to be out of the picture at this point - the extent to which RJ emphasises Moiraine's death (Lan looking all empty, his bond cut) means that we should assume Moiraine is dead, and, by extension, Lanfear, as what was different about their exits?

Therefore, I don't think it makes sense to say that Lanfear has had a good 24 hours to sort herself out and make it to Caemlyn.

Korell: 2003-10-04

Anubis i did not read your whole post i shall go back and do so however just one comment

Lanfear is Evil and follows the DO and Mat is good and does not do you not remember Moraines words about the finn not liking things that touch the dark and it is hard pressed to find somthing more dark then a Forsaken personally they are even more evil then the shadowspawn because shadow spawn were created for a purpose and have no real choice in the matter they are in hearently evil but a forsaken has made the concious decision to join the side of the DO personaly much more evil my point is i dont think they would let her just leave for the simple fact that she is Evil and connected to the Shadow on a large scale and if her price for leaving was her dying then in reality they still killed her

Callandor: 2003-10-05

**Lanfear has to be out of the picture at this point - the extent to which RJ emphasises Moiraine's death (Lan looking all empty, his bond cut) means that we should assume Moiraine is dead, and, by extension, Lanfear, as what was different about their exits?**

Has nobody else thought that just maybe the doorway melting and the connection through it to the real world, could have snapped Moiraine's bond? Travelling to almost another dimension JUST might do that.

And RJ's emphasis has been MUCH more on Moiraine's return, then on any possible death. So, since Moiraine has been hinted at so much to be alive, we should assume that Lanfear was, for at least a little while, alive in Finnland; not to mention being HELD by the Finn.

So, no, she wasn't totally out of the picture, and we don't know if the Finn can tell if a person is good or evil until reading their memories or not, altough it most likely is after since the memories would hold everything that person has done in their live. So Lanfear showing up most likely wouldn't have caused her to be killed; she could've gotten off 1 wish most likely.

Anubis: 2003-10-06

lan is meant for nynaeve. the bond had to be broken so they could be together. also the fins only dont like questions touching the dark. moirine says the darkone is evil the creator is good and the finns are different. so different that they may be considered evil. the fins are not happy little magical faeries that only do favors for good people. they just have strange rules. the empehisis on moirines bond being broken proves absolutly nothing. it tells us that moirine is "dead". It is entirely possible that lanfear killed her upon entering the angreal... except for the fact that when 2 people enter they go to different places. in closing THE FINNS ARE NOT GOOD OR EVIL. they just have rules, and lanfear would have known the rules.

Anubis: 2003-10-06

did you even read my post? i argued that the bond was broken because the link betweent the worlds was severed. NOT BECAUSE OF DEATH. personally this argument is becoming pointless, you refuse to address anything i bring up. so what if RJ empehisised the bond being broken. isnt it amazing that thats all that was stressed? not, she is dead, i am aware i felt her die, but the bond is cut, she is just gone. interesting.

Sensir: 2003-11-14

Does it matter who killed asmodean more so then the fact that he died..? he can no longer teach rand so rand may be at a los or he may be at a gain. I do disagree about the skayer idea deff. where would asmodean know slayer from? ya dont go "no you" or w/e for some random person. besides the answer will be given soon enough if you have any patience

silverwolf: 2004-01-12

Graendal received secret orders from the Dark One, presumably shortly before Asmodean died. That strongly hints that she is the killer.

Also, even going off of the assumption that since Jordan has hinted to Moiraine coming back he wants us to believe that Lanfear was alive, with the exclusion of Amys calling Rand a fool, those hints came well after Asmodean was killed (ie: Lanfear isn't obvious). Additionally, when Mat went through the doorway, he didn't come out again for seven days: Lanfear, even if she asked her way out, wouldn't have been able to escape and find where Rand was again in so short a time (to the best of our knowledge, Lanfear didn't know about the assault on Cairhien).

Another point against Lanfear is that her thoughts mentioned nothing of the murder during the battle at the end of WH. She was thinking about the day she was sucked into Finnland and about how the Finns held her, but, if she killed Asmodean, she forgot to mention that. To me, Lanfear is too vain not to have gloated about that when attacking Rand, even if she only gloated in her head.

Callandor, while I agree that the bond snapping doesn't mean that Moiraine died, I still say the killer was Graendal, NOT Lanfear.

Also, as we see when Verin attacks her in WH, Graendal is capable of masking her ability to channel, the glow around her, and what she weaves. She could easily have killed Asmodean without being detected.

Finally, Robert Jordan (as I have said in earlier posts) as good as admitted that Graendal was the killer during an interview with CNN. No, he didn't say it right out; nor did he deny it. I think he only avoided confirmation because the debate would be over, and he likes watching us squirm.

This is probably a little disjointed as I'm in a hurry and wrote it out of order, but please try to overlook that.

Also, great job with the Asmo and Graendal posts ;)

Anubis: 2004-01-12

JUST BECAUSE MATT WAS IN FINNLAND FOR 7 DAYS DOES NOT!!! NOT!!! MEAN THAT LANFEAR WAS THERE FOR ANY COMPARABLE LENGTH OF TIME!!! IT COULD HAVE BEEN MUCH LESS, OR MUCH MORE, OR A SIMILAR AMMOUNT OF TIME OR THREE MINUTES, OR THREE YEARS OR ANYTHING!!!!!!!

jason wolfbrother: 2004-01-13

However, Lanfear specifically mentions being "held" by the finn. To me a three minute imprisonment does not constitute being "held". Usually "held" is more like a day or two, maybe even more. Even a few hours would not be "held" to me. I don't think she could have gotten out of Finnland within the time period needed to kill Asmodean. Yes she had motive, she had means, but I think she lacked the opportunity and that prevents her from being guilty in my book. Graendal had means, had motive, and she had opportunity. She knew Asmo was dead when NO ONE else did. She made her own secret trip to Shayol Ghul and was "all but promised Nae'blis". She is the guilty party in my book.

solomonrex: 2004-01-13

[spoiler]

But, once again, Graendal 'knew' Lanfear was dead, and she didn't kill her, either. 'All but promised Nae'blis' means nothing, since [spoiler]she is NOT Nae'blis! So, the Graendal words are no proof, especially since the DO recycled everyone else, and Asmo wasn't recycled, so it's unlikely that it was a 'sanctioned' DO hit.

silverwolf: 2004-01-13

First, Asmodean was a traitor, so the DO would not want to bring him back. Second, even if the DO did want to retrieve him, his ties to the DO had been cut (many readers, myself included, believe that the same ties allowing the male Forsaken to channel without being affected by the taint allow the DO to recycle them. Third, even if the ties aren't required, there is a distinct possibility from the description of his death and the lack of a body that Asmodean was killed with balefire. If that is the case, it would be very unlikely that the DO could bring him back.

With that said: no, Lanfear was not necessarily held for the same amount of time as Mat. However, it seems likely that she would be held for more than a few minutes if Mat was held for seven days. My point was merely to illustrate that the only other example of a person visiting the Eelfinn took much too long for Lanfear to have had the opportunity to kill Asmodean if her experience was comparable. That's why it was only a point, not the whole argument.

Finally, a point I forgot in my original post: Cyndane didn't appear until TPoD. If she had actually been around since the end of TFoH, don't you think that with all of the dark POV's in books 6, 7 and 8 we might have at least had a clue that another new forsaken was running around?

Callandor: 2004-01-13

**Cyndane didn't appear until TPoD. If she had actually been around since the end of TFoH, don't you think that with all of the dark POV's in books 6, 7 and 8 we might have at least had a clue that another new forsaken was running around?**

It doesn't have to be Cyndane. Cyndane is Lanfear after either being reduced to what she was (the de-enchancement theory) or being transmigrated (death theory). It could've very easily been Lanfear herself off of a wish. And Lanfear going off a wish is much more reasonable then Graendal being the suspect since a) she "knew" Lanfear was dead, when she wasn't; b) she "knew" that Asmodean was dead, and yet espressed doubt in what she was saying; c) Graendal makes a spectacular 29 appearences thoughout TEOTW till TFOH when Asmodean dies, and we are supposed to think it is obvious that she did it, when she shows no hostile intentions or plans concerning ANYTHING with Asmodean? d) Graendal had no idea where Rand was or that Asmodean was with him e) RJ WAS NOT CONFIRMING GRAENDAL WAS THE KILLER! HE WAS AGREEING THAT THE KILLER SHOULD BE OBVIOUS!

jason wolfbrother: 2004-01-14

Graendal did know where Rand was and that Asmodean was with him. She was part of the original plan to trap Rand involving Lanfear, Sammael, and Rahvin. She knew of Asmo and Rand since the prologue of FoH and has been kept informed just as much as Sammael and Rahvin of the situation, at least as much info as Lanfear was willing to share, remember Moggy was spying on all of them and thought Lanfear was playing her own game. But we the reader certainly know that Graendal was around and involved in the trap. She did know and is a viable suspect under the "obvious" clause that RJ has thrown out there.

Callandor: 2004-01-14

**She was part of the original plan to trap Rand involving Lanfear, Sammael, and Rahvin. She knew of Asmo and Rand since the prologue of FoH and has been kept informed just as much as Sammael and Rahvin of the situation, at least as much info as Lanfear was willing to share, remember Moggy was spying on all of them and thought Lanfear was playing her own game.**

The plan was for Rand to attack Sammael, not Rahvin. If there was a trap she would be in Illian laying it wait.

Lanfear on the other hand, is the one who could know that Rand was going to attack Rahvin, not Sammael, because she went to Cairhien.

Tamyrlin: 2004-01-14

However, the trap had to do with Rand's attack on Sammael, not on Rahvin. Additionally, Moghedien and Graendal were supposed to meet the day of Rand's attack, but Graendal told Demandred that Moghedien never showed up at their meeting. So, Jordan, at the beginning of LoC gives us good reason to believe that Graendal was not aware of Rand's change in plans, because Moghedien who knew about it never got a chance to talk to Graendal.

jason wolfbrother: 2004-01-14

I agree she was not following the plan. The original plan as put forth by Lanfear was for Rand to attack Sammael and the other three to then to gang up on Rand. However, I was simply contending that, contrary to Callandor's post right above my last one, Graendal was aware of Rand and had figured in the books and specifically in FoH as a character.

Callandor said this

"c) Graendal makes a spectacular 29 appearences thoughout TEOTW till TFOH when Asmodean dies, and we are supposed to think it is obvious that she did it, when she shows no hostile intentions or plans concerning ANYTHING with Asmodean? d) Graendal had no idea where Rand was or that Asmodean was with him"

Graendal did know that Asmo was with Rand, and she had made plans that involved Asmodean. That was my point. She did not follow the plan as set forth but that was because Rand was never drawn out to attack Sammael.

I don't think Asmodean's death was a result of that plan anyways. Graendal was acting in her own self-interest as she has throughout the entire series.

IkilledAsmodean: 2004-01-15

Actually, Jordan's comment went like this.

Interviewer: I don't get why people can't figure out who killed Asmodean. It was Graendel.

RJ: I don't understand why they didn't get that. I thought that was obvious to the most casual reader of all.

Seems to me he's really saying it's Graendal. Though he does go on to point out a few coments later that he specifically does not say the words to trigger people into continuing theories and such.

Aelfinn: 2004-01-15

I hate to admit it, but I'm starting to think it was Lanfear or Graendal who killed that Forsaken, Asmodean.

Sure, Lanfear was kind of trapped by my kind and the Eelfinn (also known as the Foxes), but it's never said when she died or whatever. Light, I was pretty mad when I found out that she wasn't there any more, but I never got a clear answer on what happened. And remember, time in my dimension runs differently than in yours. Yes, I saw her once or twice, but I couldn't say how long ago it was in your time.

I'll try to make something clear, when someone said something like **Yeah she'd said she'd been held by the Finn, but how WOULD you refer to your own death?** Okay, this is a bad metaphor, but: picture channelers as runners.

M and L are both runners. L is a considerably better runner than M; L is trying to kill M. M manages to push L into a building where not very many people come out from, but M falls in as well. Later on, L was seen being outside the building. She mentions, in a way, that she isn't as good a runner as she was before the occupants of the building held her. The only occurance known before of that is when a runner had their leg cut off. When healed, which was previously thought impossible, some became as good runners as before, and some became runners not as good; it depends on how the runner was healed.

Is that a good enough metaphor for you?

Callandor: 2004-01-15

**She did not follow the plan as set forth but that was because Rand was never drawn out to attack Sammael.

I don't think Asmodean's death was a result of that plan anyways. Graendal was acting in her own self-interest as she has throughout the entire series.**

But how did she know that Asmodean and Rand didn't go for Sammael? And why would she go to Rahvin of all people, when in just the next book, she has an alliance with Sammael? Doesn't make any sense at all.

**Actually, Jordan's comment went like this.**

That isn't the quote. This is:

**Question from Vercingetorix: Why do you think everyone has a hard time figuring out who killed Asmodean? Graendal killed him.

Robert Jordan: I don't know why people have a hard time figuring that out. To me it seems intuitively obvious even to the most casual observer. The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much. It's probably bad for me.**

Why, oh why, would RJ agree that Graendal killed Asmodean, if just 12 words later he says HE WON'T TELL WHO KILLED HIM?! RJ is saying that the killer should be obvious, NOT that Graendal killed him.

Laguna Loire: 2004-01-18

Call is right on the exact quote. RJ was simply answering vertex's question on why everyone has a hard time figuring the whole situation out, not stating that Graendal did it. He didn't deny it, nor confirm it. Like an Aes Sedai, he is telling the truth, just not the truth you think you hear.

Laguna Loire: 2004-01-18

RJ in his quote said obvious to the casual observer... Well If I was casually abserving the whole bloddy situation, I would casually point my bloddy finger at one of the servants on the scene..who quite possibly was Graendal. Saying Lanfear did it would entice me to read too deeply into it. Not very casual..and not very obvious. Callandor..u make good point..I'll give ya that. But it all seems too stretched and too in thought. Completely the opposite of obvious. In my opinion..and remember..only opinion...the odds are in favor of Graendal...and unless Lanfear is Ta'veren and can pull the odds into her favor...she is in my opinion innocent..from this crime at least.

But call...if we find out in the future that it was Lan....congrats u were right..I ask that u refrain from the "I told you so". But until RJ says out right or in one of the books...the bloody truth will be an opinion.

Laguna Loire: 2004-01-18

yes I am aware of my spelling mistakes...i couldnt see the keys and wasn't watching what I typed. Didnt care to proofread my post...in a hurry and watching playoffs.

Callandor: 2004-01-18

**But call...if we find out in the future that it was Lan....congrats u were right..I ask that u refrain from the "I told you so".**

Right or wrong doesn't matter, its why.

**Well If I was casually abserving the whole bloddy situation, I would casually point my bloddy finger at one of the servants on the scene..who quite possibly was Graendal....In my opinion..and remember..only opinion...the odds are in favor of Graendal...and unless Lanfear is Ta'veren and can pull the odds into her favor...she is in my opinion innocent..from this crime at least.**

As said before, Graendal makes an astonishing 29 appearances from TEOTW to TFOH, and one of those is just saying her name, so 28. How is that anywhere obvious?

TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 55 - The Threads Burn

"A man and a woman crouched against the wall, servants livened in red and white, short of their middle years and holding each other as though for protection. Seeing Rand-there was more to the name; not just Rand-the man started to rise from where he had huddled away from the Myrddraal-led band, but the woman hauled him back by his sleeve."

Graendal was a psychologist for nearly 400 years before turning to the Dark, 10 years for the War of Power, and lets say she was 18 when first started to channel, thats 428 years old. Even with channeling reducing anging, that would be in her middle years; not short of them. Not to mention this:

TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Sparks Fall

In any other company but Lanfear's, Graendal would have been accounted a stunningly beautiful woman, lush and ripe.**

So, unless Rand has lost all account of beautiful women, he should be able to tell that she was a beautiful woman, unless she was using the Mask of Mirrors, and if she was, it cancels out any obviousness of her being the servant.

rollthedice: 2004-02-11

I don't know if this has been brought up...But couldn't the killer of Asmodean been none other than Rand? There was no certain time when the death happened, so Rand could have been free to get another Forsaken out of the way, since Rand had learned all he could, and, as shown in LoC, Rand becomes jealous of other men channellers, so he may have been jealous of Asmodean after killing Rahvin and realizing that Asmodean will be powerful once he can break the shield down.

I have a question though...why could none of the women channellers not see Lanfear's shield on Asmodean?

Davian93: 2004-02-12

Because she probably inverted the weave so no one else would be able to see it.

HawkeWolfe: 2004-02-12

Asmodean would not have have said "you!" as if scared of who it was, if the person had been Rand. He would have said something like, "My lord, I am surprised to see you." Or some such drivel. He knew who the person was and knew that he was going to die. He would not be that terrified of Rand.

As for why the Aes sedai could not see the shield that Lanfear placed, she inverted the weave so it could not be seen by another female channeler.

rubbernilly: 2004-02-12

Female channelers don't see the shield because it is inverted. They might see/feel it if they actually channeled at it, but they have no reason to.

Has no one considered that RJ might be acting a little more deviously than we give him credit for? Perhaps he cannot say who the killer is - or even give a RAFO answer - because the killer is someone that we trust?

For instance, Bashere is almost immediately trusted by Rand... trusted so far that Rand comments that this is one of the few men with whom he would trust his life. Odd that, coming so soon after they have met. I'm not saying that Bashere did anything, only that RJ *needs* him to be that close should his status as traitor be true.

There is evidence that must be considered for a "Bashere as DF" case... and if you are looking for "obvious to even the casual reader" then we shouldn't have to construct all sorts of elaborate proofs and timetables. Casual readers don't take note of those things. What casual readers *do* take note of, however, is that Asmodean was looking for wine when he was killed. A page later, in the same palace, we have Bashere showing up for the first time with wine from the palace cellars.

That's what a casual reader would find, I think.

And, if this situation is true - that is, if Bashere really *is* a DF - then there is no way RJ could say *anything.* We are supposed to implicitly trust him at this point in the story; Rand implicitly trusts him.

However, is it not a cold spike in your mind to consider that if Taim is a Forsaken proxy and Bashere *is* that proxy, that their whole argument upon "first" meeting there in front of Rand is all for show. That conversation was designed to ingratiate each of them into Rand's good graces.

dragonsceptor: 2004-02-12

An intersting sidenote on the Bashere is a DF idea. Who was it that came back to Rand stating that Suroth wanted to meet the Dragon? Bashere. This would be awfully convenient if Bashere is a DF. I'm not saying I believe this. I personally like Bashere and I would feel betrayed if he is a DF, as I am sure Rand will. I'm just saying this possibility adds another dimension to the obvious trap that Suroth is lying for Rand.

Callandor: 2004-02-12

**I don't know if this has been brought up...But couldn't the killer of Asmodean been none other than Rand?**

Not a chance.

1. The timing is off since Asmodean left Mat and Avi talking by the pool, and Rand was talking to Bashere at roughly this time.

2. Rand needed Asmodean for his teaching, even weak, he is full of knowledge.

3. Rand himself thinks that Asmodean ran away, not having been killed:

**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 3 - A Woman's Eyes

He would deal with Asmodean himself if the man ever turned up again.**

**TITLE: Path of Daggers, CHAPTER: 29 - A Cup of Sleep

Rounding a corner, Rand stopped with a hand against one wall to seize the Source. A fool thing, not wanting Min to see him stagger when someone tried to kill him, but there it was. Not just any someone. A man, Demandred, or perhaps Asmodean come back at last. Maybe both; there had been an oddity, as if the weaving came from different directions. He had felt the channeling too late to do anything. He would have died, in his rooms. He was ready to die. But not Min, no, not Min. Elayne was better off, turning against him. Oh, Light, she was!**

4. If LTT took over Rand in order to kill Asmodean, how would Rand get control back?

**TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 52 - Choices

If he listened, it might be Lews Therin Telamon who walked away, with Rand al'Thor a voice sometimes floating in his head if that.**

So, Rand can be written off as a possible killer.

Asmodean: 2004-02-13

It is nice to see I am still the most popular topic on the site. But doesn't anyone have anything better to do than wonder what in the bloody hell happened to me? Come on, it happened so 5 books ago, just let it go. RJ might have a reason for not saying it right out. Can't people just read and enjoy the books and not try to pick apart and analyse every little thing? You people are as bad as Cairhienin nobles. There are more important things in life than worrying about my death. The time everyone spends on solving this mystery is time that could be used for making money, or partys and what not.

Work some, get paid

Have fun, get laid

Smoke dope, drink beers

Grasp hope, suppress fears

Brass knuckles and iron claws

Sadistic chuckles while breaking laws

Asmo's death, let it go my friends

May the truth be told when the series ends.
~this was funny, but no flames please, Tamyrlin~

rollthedice: 2004-02-13

I still think it could have been Rand, as Asmodean would have known straight out why Rand would have suddenly shown up in the wine cellars, especially if he was full of the power.

And since you say RJ tries not to make it easy...what is to say that Rand is not as willful as LTT? If LTT can take over, Rand can take right back over after. In LOC they begin to make a team, and that could have started with Asmodean.

solomonrex: 2004-02-19

No, Rand doesn't forget the things that LTT does, he's along for the ride and he actually feels when LTT takes over. And LTT isn't LTT, it's just a second personality (interview).

In conclusion, it was SOOOO Lanfear.

Davian93: 2004-02-19

****No, Rand doesn't forget the things that LTT does, he's along for the ride and he actually feels when LTT takes over. And LTT isn't LTT, it's just a second personality (interview).

In conclusion, it was SOOOO Lanfear.***

Sorry got to respond here. First of all it is LTT, just not his soul. They are the same soul, the Dragon. And it can't be Lanfear because she was dead at this point. Unless of course you are suggesting that she got out of the Ter'angreal/or died inside and then was transmigrated by the DO, then traveled to Camelyn to kill Asmod all in under a day.

I say it was Slayer in the wine closet with the candle stick.

HawkeWolfe: 2004-02-19

Solomonrex, LTT has never gained control of Rand...if you believe that has happened, please post where you have read that. Thanks

Korell: 2004-02-20

Grendahl in the Conservatory with the rope

come on she is the only persons point of view that we get that is pretty darn sure Asmo is dead no opther point of view has indicated it (i know its not really proof but hey what can i say)

: 2004-02-25

I have a few comments to add. I have read the entire post. Before adding my theories I have 2 requests: 1-Please read at least the first few sentences of each post. If it addresses what you would like to say, make sure you're not redundant. 2-Please PUNCTUATE!

Now, I have been studying this. I reread book 4 after having read a lot about who killed him. I haven't come up with a defininte answer, as some seem to have. But my inclination is to agree with Callandor. Lanfear seems guilty for the following reasons:

1-She knew that Asmo was with Rand.

2-She did want to kill him and all the others.

3-THE BIGGEST MOTIVE THAT I SEE PEOPLE MISSING IS THAT IF ASMODEAN IS ALIVE, HE CAN TELL OTHER FORSAKEN THAT SHE SET HIM TO TEACH RAND. BY KILLING HIM, SHE WAS PROTECTING HER LIFE AND HER SOUL FROM THE DARK ONE.

4-I liked Rubbernilly's Idea of Bashere. That would seem to make it obvious. RJ has said that most people who have written him asking if they were right, have been wrong. I think that might make it lean toward Bashere. However, I didn't notice it. A lot of us didn't notice it. And most of us are more than casual readers. However, any casual reader must notice that Asmo was thinking about Lanfear right before he was murdered. Ex: My wife and I read these together. In other series, if I wasn't to interested in it, I would let her read a chapter or 2 while I was at work and just catch me up. I haven't done that with this series, but suppose someone had. They would be considered a casual reader. Someone comes home from work and says "what happened today?" She fills him in. "Where are we now?" They begin reading right where Asmodean goes looking for wine. The casual reader sees Asmo thinking of Lanfear being dead, then the infamous "You? No!"

timetorollthedice: 2004-02-25

One more thought...

I am really starting to like the idea of Bashere being Asmo's murderer. There are a lot of holes in it. But RJ says he can't believe that we can't figure it out. I can just hear him chortling..."He goes looking for wine...he opens a door and dies" (pause for maniacal laughter)"and on the VERY NEXT PAGE Bashere comes up with wine and people can't figure it out!" (more maniacal laughter from the shadows. I'm going to look into it. Note, if Bashere somehow knows who Asmo is, he doesn't have to be a DF. There may be other ways around that as well.

Arbryan: 2004-03-02

Gonna take a stab at a few things (pun intended).

1. I think Damondred is discounted too easily. We know the 'Chosen' are not exactly DO lapdogs. Unless I am mistaken he is being discounted because he only told the DO that Asmodean had vanished. Even an AS bound by the Oath could get away with that one.

2. When Asmo sees the person he says You, No... (punctuation may be off, but the words are correct). The NO leads me to believe that he is reading the weave, which points to Saidin, or seeing what is being done, a blade coming at him or whatever is actually used to kill him. It is possible that there was a male channeler that put a gag of air in Asmo's mouth thus stopping any further sound while he did him in with a blade. It would be a small enough amount of the power that it might go unnoticed.

So unless my memory is faulty this could point to Taim - though likely Taim would have abducted him in an attempt to have an AOL teacher that couldn't withold much from him (as we are shown by Alviarin/Mesaana that the Forsaken don't really give much to the modern day AS).

3. As to Graendal saying that he's dead, I hate to point out the obvious but you're reading a lot into the words of a liar. She is probably useing the Great Game to try to gain some advantage with the others. What would she care if he shows up again, the DO is bringing back the Chosen left and right and its doubtful that having taught Rand that he would intentionally go anywhere near one of them so she's pretty safe.

One last point. I find it really hard to believe (casual reader or not) that Graendal is hiding in a room/pantry/whatever and Asmo just happens to try THAT door in an enormous palace with hundreds, if not thousands, of doors. If that's the way it went down either RJ is abusing Rands Ta'Veren influence or he thinks we're all dolts. I don't think he'd buy off on either of those...

Could Damondred be masquerading as Bashere? (sorry if this is an obvious no, it's been a while since my last read through the series and with Bashere showing up with the wine, and my opinion that Damondred can't be considered innocent based upon his discussion with the DO, it might answer a lot of questions.)

Callandor: 2004-03-02

**1. I think Damondred is discounted too easily. We know the 'Chosen' are not exactly DO lapdogs. Unless I am mistaken he is being discounted because he only told the DO that Asmodean had vanished. Even an AS bound by the Oath could get away with that one.**

TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Message

"Rahvin is dead, Great Lord. Yesterday." There was pain. Euphoria too strong became pain quickly. His arms and legs twitched. He was sweating, now. "Lanfear has vanished without a trace, just as Asmodean did. And Graendal says Moghedien failed to meet her as they had agreed. Also yesterday, Great Lord. I do not believe in coincidence."

Why would Demandred lie, to the DO? COULD he even lie, in his presence?

Also:

**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Message

"Another point pricked him. *The Great Lord already knew how Rahvin had died. And seemed to know more of Asmodean than he.* "As you command, Great Lord, so shall I obey." His muscles might be jerking, but his voice was rock steady. His knees began to blister from the hot stone, yet the flesh might as well have been someone else's.**

Dem's own POV, saying that the DO knew more about Asmo's death then he did; if he was the killer, how could the DO know anymore then him?

Demandred can be written off.

**As to Graendal saying that he's dead, I hate to point out the obvious but you're reading a lot into the words of a liar.**

Dear me, I cannot agree with you MORE!! :D:D Graendal is so obivously lying.

**Could Damondred be masquerading as Bashere?**

Not unless he is masquerading at the same time the real Bashere is going around. We are given his POV in CoT, and it is nothing like Demandred's.

Also, somewhat according to RJ, even though he has confused it a bit, he said that we have not seen Demandred's alter ego in the WoT; so it could be many things to read out of that.

Davian93: 2004-03-02

****1. I think Damondred is discounted too easily. We know the 'Chosen' are not exactly DO lapdogs. Unless I am mistaken he is being discounted because he only told the DO that Asmodean had vanished. Even an AS bound by the Oath could get away with that one.****

We have from Demandreds POV in the prologue of LOC that he doesnt know what happened to Asmo, so we can pretty much count him out.

As for Demandred posing as Bashere, I personally think that's highly unlikely. First of all, Faile and Bashere's wife, not to mention all his troops recognize him with no problem. So yeah, I'd say thats impossible.

dragonsceptor: 2004-03-03

I agree that Bashere isn't a forsaken. However, I am really beginning to lean towards the idea that the he is a DF. It's the kind of thing RJ would do just to make us feel betrayed as Rand will feel betrayed. I personally feel that Bashere is about to be revealed. Bashere came to get Rand and bring him to Suroth for a meeting with the DotNM. I think this is a trap and that Bashere is part of it.

Arbryan: 2004-03-03

Alright Callandor. The additional POV from Demandred makes sense (I didn't recall that at the time). And the Demandred is Bashere was more levity than anything else ;).

The one thing that really sticks in my mind is that there was someone waiting there for him. Even though he's one of the least threatening, he is still one of the Forsaken. He wasn't just stumbling upon someone and dieing that fast without that person waiting for him. The comments about Lanfear getting a wish from the Eelfinn of being able to be the one to kill Asmo fits with this scenario.

I still have a hard time getting past my belief that Saidin was used and that the NO was in reference to recognizing the weave. And I don't think that Lanfear would go after Asmo without first killing Moiraine who had just recently slammed her through a ter'angreal and stolen an angreal from her in the process.

HawkeWolfe: 2004-03-03

There is a new interview at this web site:

Link

I found it from the Tor/Jordan web site.

In this interview RJ clearly states that he will not tell who killed Asmo, but he also clearly states that someone has figuered it out. So somewhere, someone has figuered the right answer. Problem is we are still guessing. I am uncertain that we will ever know for sure....

Anubis: 2004-03-03

well if the dark one knows about asmodeans death then it is for one of two reasons. Either the dark one ordered the death, or moridin did, or a third party did it and the dark one has them... under thumb. I think that lanfear fits the second, while most of the forsaken fit the first

Darren: 2004-03-04

Graendal would have made Asmodean a pet, not balefired him. Some of the "proof" mentioned that "she did it" is pretty thin stuff.

"She wanted to be Nae'blis, so she must have done it" ... ah, logic...

"She wasn't surprised that he was dead, so she must have done it." ... And G normally wears her emotions on her streith?

And there's no way Slayer did it. Rahvin's gone... insignificant Dreadlords are weighed out if it's "obvious who did it"

Can't be Lanfear because Asmodean wouldn't have recognized her in her Cyndane skin...

timetorollthedice: 2004-03-04

A word about Bashere...

First, it would be stretching things to conclude that Bashere did it, but at this point, it is impossible to disprove. That said...

If he is the killer and a df, that would explain why RJ won't tell anyone who killed Asmodean. It will come out.

On the link from the TOR website that was listed by Hawkewolf a few posts up, RJ says that he received numerous letters saying "it isn't possible, who was it" etc. Then "someone deduced the answer" using only information from the book. This sounds like most of the names people are talking about out there are wrong. SomeONE deduced it. If I'm not reading into that statement too much, we can determine that it isn't Lanfear, Graendal, Slayer, etc.

The only problem I see is the sequencing. We see Bashere with the wine just before Asmodean dies, not after. Of course, that might have just been a literary technique to show us that he has wine, then reverse the time a few hours and kill Asmodean. Hence, we should know from the moment that Asmo dies, who did it.

Building on that, is it not weird to have a captain come into the palace from a long march carrying a bottle of wine and 2 flasks?

I was convinced it was Lanfear. I now feel like Bashere has a better chance of being the culprit than any of the usual suspects.

Darren: 2004-03-05

OK... I'll be honest. The issue of who killed Asmodean has never much interested me, but seeing the serious multitude of correspondence concerning said Killer... I gave it a bit more thought, but not too much more.
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However, I just finished reading TFH again, and naturally I came across the killing passage.

Asmodean says "You? No" and then (and I capitalize) DEATH TOOK HIM.

Don't you think it's rather obvious. Moridin killed him. There's only one "death" in the series.

davood: 2004-03-05

that seems possible but.

wasnt the wine etc already there? or brought by servants?

ill have to check that part of the book again to be sure... and post the quote

Callandor: 2004-03-06

**Don't you think it's rather obvious. Moridin killed him. There's only one "death" in the series.**

But we first learned of Moridin in ACOS. How is that obvious from the time of Asmo's death?

Darren: 2004-03-07

Davood... who says the wine has anything to do with Asmodean's death? Read the passage. He goes into a pantry looking for some wine, and then finds *someone*... there's nothing about wine killing him.

Callandor, you have a good point; does Jordan say that the answer to who killed Asm. contained within TFoH, or only the clues? I'm assuming he meant the clues, and that even if we hadn't met Moridin, Jordan not only knew he was there, but had him working in the shadows. I meant obvious "now"... at the time, heck, I thought Lanfear did it, which I think was what we were meant to assume.

Ishmael, after all, was "killed" at the end of TDR... that's two whole years of writing. Sure Jordan already put him back into play.

Consider how LoC begins. The DO talks about Asmodean and SAYS "who betrays me shall die the final death." Except for Shaidar Haran, the only character we see acting purely on the DO's behalf is Ishy/Moridin. Sure, it could have been SH as well, but I think that one line is the giveaway.

Also, are you sure we don't see Moridin until ACoS? I had thought he first appeared in LoC, but I could be wrong. I've certainly been wrong before.

Callandor: 2004-03-07

**Callandor, you have a good point; does Jordan say that the answer to who killed Asm. contained within TFoH, or only the clues? I'm assuming he meant the clues, and that even if we hadn't met Moridin, Jordan not only knew he was there, but had him working in the shadows. I meant obvious "now"... at the time, heck, I thought Lanfear did it, which I think was what we were meant to assume.**

RJ has said that the killer should be obvious "to the most intuitive observer" right from Asmodean's death. The clues are there, and we should be able to figure out the killer, and he even says someone already has.

**Ishmael, after all, was "killed" at the end of TDR... that's two whole years of writing. Sure Jordan already put him back into play.**

Ishy was dead in TDR. His body degenerated at an astounding rate and was seen rotting by Rand and Mat.

**Consider how LoC begins. The DO talks about Asmodean and SAYS "who betrays me shall die the final death." Except for Shaidar Haran, the only character we see acting purely on the DO's behalf is Ishy/Moridin. Sure, it could have been SH as well, but I think that one line is the giveaway.**

Gives away what? All the Forsaken are working FOR the DO, the only one to really betray him was Asmodean, well forced to, and technically Lanfear, although that was her perspective on events (but she did want to overthrough him with Rand). Ishamael just worked the most for the DO, over 3000 years he did the most damage to the Light, which is why he is Nae'blis. Other then that, I really don't see your point on it.

**Also, are you sure we don't see Moridin until ACoS?**

Yes, we first MEET Moridin himself in ACOS Chapter 25, Mindtrap. However, we meet the Watcher, who is Moridin spying on Sammael and Graendal, in ACOS Chapter 20, Patterns within Patterns. And then we meet the Wanderer in ACOS Chapter 41, A Crown of Swords, who is again Moridin helping Rand.

However, we do have a small indication of a possible warning of Moridin's first action in ACOS Chapter 15, Insects, when Jaichim Carridin sees a slightly different re-has of his orders from Ishy in TGH, however these could have been implanted in the Soical.

Daekyras: 2004-03-08

If the Killer was supposed to be CLEAR, and I may be going off point here a little, Then I don't think it could be Graendal. From reading that passage and the books, I don't get any indiacation that Graendal would interfere just like that. Also why would she?

It was Slayer or Taim.

Malkier: 2004-03-17

Well it took me days, but I read through this entire thread. I want to point some stuff, soem has already been said but not in one collective post.

First, RJ has stated a dozen times that the killer is obvious "right at his death". All the Graendal "evidence" is being taken from later books, so it cant even be counted. Anything that does not happen in TfoH or before should not be taken into account.

Also, as someone stated, you are supposing that Graendal, someone who is EVIL, is telling the truth. If you look, she said Asmodean was dead while having a conversation with Sammael. In every conversation she has in Sammael, one of them is usually lying. For example, once Sammael tells her that he is alligned with Rand, but we know THAT isnt true. In that same sentence she says Lanfear is dead, but we know THAT isnt true. I believe at one point (I would have to find it), she states the Moggy is dead, but we know THAT isnt true. Yet this one line, people except as truth.

The only person that was "obvious" at the time of death was Lanfear. He was thinking gleefully to himself (as gleefully as Asmodean can be) that she was dead.

One argument against it being Lanfear is that he would not recognize her as Cyndane. However, we can not assume it was the Finns that turned her into Cyndane. The DO could of done it for punishment reasons. She obviously IS being punished, since she has to be Moridins little pet. So you know the DO is punishing her, and being turned into Cyndane was most likely part of the punishment, AND/OR he may not want anyone to know Lanfear is still alive, so she can better be used to...amend for her errors. Ignorance in itself is a weapon.

Motive? Whoever killed Asmodean didnt need motive, Asmodean obviously got in the way. He was looking for wine, but had no idea where he was. "He pulled open a small door, intending to find his way into the pantry." Whoever killed him did not expect Asmodean to show up.

So what would Lanfear be doing? Looking for the Choedan Kal. She was the only person who knew Rand had it. She was going to let him keep it, because she expected him to side with her. But obviously that was no more, and theres no way in hell she would want him to keep it at this point. She may also have been forced to tell the DO that he had it, and he told her to go get it. She may of been punished after (turned into Cyndane), for not finding it.

Lastly, this isnt evidence persay, but it sticks out in my mind. Asmodeans use of the word "you?" when he walks through the door. Take a moment to recall the end of TSR, with Rand, Lanfear, and Asmodean. And How Asmodean refers to her:

"You dont know what he has done. You must help me. I would not have come here if not for you.

"The will believe you! You can tell them! I would not be here except for you! You must tell them!

"You cannot do this to me!"

And ONCE, because in desperation, he refers to her as her name, Mierin. And as you remember, she gets VERY upset and tries to kill him. I dare to say, that Asmodean is afraid to call her by anything but "you", because the only time he even calls her Lanfear, is when she isnt around. Its always "you"

oniDahL: 2004-03-18

phew... took me two whole days at school to read this. changed my mind 3 times before I got to the end. the thing about Lanfear looking for the Choedan Kal convinced me. never thought Lanfear could be the killer, but until that is disproved I'm going for Lanfear.

dragonsceptor: 2004-03-18

There is still the obvious issue that is a problem with Lanfear. When she and Moiraine went through the door and Lan's bond was severed, I thought they were dead, and I would venture that most of us did as well. Now, in later books more info comes to light where can argue that in retrospect. However, I don't think Lanfear passes the obvious pass. Your point about Greandal is well taken. The problem is I can see the obvious argument being used against all of the potenial killers we have discussed.

Malkier: 2004-03-18

Honestly I dont agree. If its one thing you learn when you read Robert Jordan, is NEVER assume someone is dead unless the POV you are reading it from actually sees the person dead.

I really did not at all feel they were dead when they went through the portal. I felt they were only trapped, and thats all. Lans bond snapping is natural, she isnt a part of that world anymore.

Also one other note I forgot. I think you could deduce that Lanfear would of been able to escape fairly quickly. She was very good at the World of Dreams, constantly saying it was HERS. The Tower of Genjei is of course in the World of Dreams, so you can assume she would have the knowledge needed to go in and out of the tower from there. If Slayer could, surely she could as well.

And the fact that Slayer can enter and leave is proof that the Finns would not (or could not) hold Lanfear simply because she was evil, as some posts have said. They would have held Slayer as well.

Terence: 2004-03-19

hi all, i have read WoT once up to CoT and in the last 3 months. I have read this thread and want to add my opinion.

questions i have: why does it have to be a Dark character whodunit and why does it have to be a channeller (whether OP or TP)

My impression of who Asmo's killer was, is Lan Gaidan.

Things counting for Lan:

Lan's a blademaster, anyone want to argue that.... and we keep getting info on how quick and deadly they are and furthermore,

a) We know that a bonded warder goes insane with vengeance when his Aes Sedai bites the dust..

b) Moiraine took steps to prevent him from avenging her by passing the bond, without his consent...why? She knew she would "die" on the docks in Cairhein with Lanfear, who would Lan take his vengeance on?

c) Moiraine knew Nateal's real identity since entering Rhuidean. AS and their warders can share thoughts, with the time it took Rand and co. to travel from Rhuidean to Cairhein, i am sure a blue ajah AS might of let her thoughts get the better of her with a known Forsaken in her midst and teaching the DR, who she has spent her life searching for..

d) Lan feels responsible for the Edmond Fielders, since he and Moiraine took them from their homes and is like a father/big brother figure for Rand...teaching him about fighting, diplomacy, etiquette...etc... should be pretty concerned for Rand's safety...

e) Lan should be known to Nateal/Asmo since Rhuidean... there is slim chance they don't know each other.

f) Lan is one of the main characters, why does he disappear after Moiraine's "death" and reappears a few books later in Salidar, with the look of death in his eye's and cuts and bruises...etc (not a quote but along those lines)

g) He's got an Aes Sedai sword...the sword of the Malkeiri Kings... should be sharp enough to make a nice clean blow...

h) He is a warder (wearing that cloak) and he is respected amongst all the Aiel and Rand's followers alike.... I don't think anyone apart from Rand or an AS would question his motives for being in the palace in Camelyn...especially after the battle with Rahvin.

things counting against Lan:

a) time - I looked at the map, Camelyn to Cairhein is approx. the same distance as Kinslayers dagger to Cairhein. If I remember correctly, it took Rand 1.5 days to reach Cairhein after he got the Horn back in TGH, this with a heavy chest and 3 other companions, not to mention a small escort after the midnight stopover where that giant statue thing was...I am sure a warhorse and a warder bent on vengeance will cover that distance very fast...

b) scene of the crime - how did he know to wait for Asmo in that particular room... could have followed him and taken Asmo from behind.....could have walked in on him from the other side of the room... I prefer the latter.

why I think it is not the others mentioned in this thread: At the point in the story when Asmo got whacked...

-not a channeller since Rand and Avienhda would have felt a male or female channeller's presence, (not to mention Asmo himself). therefore he was killed using conventional means...I didn't know enough about the True power at this point either...

-I didn't think of Lanfear or Moiraine since i was under the impression that they both perished after entering Finnland and the doorframe terangreal melted...and that you could only leave Finnland, the same way you entered.

-Didn't think of Graendal but from what i read in this thread, she might be suspect. but i still don't think a channeler did it.

-Not Slayer or Shadar Haran, didn't know what they could do at the time...

-Bashere would make a good suspect no.2 as well... if he is proven to be a DF.

I found a link that has PoV of the other characters at this point in the story..check it out:

http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~fellowsd/jordan/asmodean-notable.html

Ask yourself, the first time you read WoT... who did you suspect killed Asmo at that point in the story (end of FoH)... that's the answer.

Anubis: 2004-03-19

i believe that asmodeans killer was 2! count em two random forsaken. well not random... i just need to figger out which ones. and it aint lanfear and im pretty sure it aint grendel tho she is a possibility still.

HappyFade: 2004-03-19

There are some people above who seem to believe Slayer can go in and out of the Tower of Ghenjie(sp?) as he pleases.

I've never thought this, but have seen it many times.

When Slayer leads Perrin to the Tower in TSR, he moved so that Perrin could track him there, then he vanished(since he is more experienced at T'A'R, it is likely he could have lost Perrin if he wished).

Given Birgitte's warning to Perrin moments later, I thought it was obvious that Slayer lead him there as a trap. Not because he was running and hiding.

Darren: 2004-03-19

Lan can't have done it... he was under the bond's compulsion to go directly to Myrelle.... and the whole thing with Lan's bond being severed... that proves nothing. Had Moiraine been stilled, the bond would have been severed; had Moiraine even RELEASED the bond, he would have assumed the worst. I don't know if anyone's cottoned to this, but Lan is not exactly an optimist.

Yeah, it could have easily been Lanfear... even as Cyndane, she could simply have taken her own form with the power and so he would have recognized her...

Do I think she did it? No... But I did at the time. (As above, I also fell for the Taimandred thing, and thought I was incredibly clever at the time for putting that hooked nose together)

We have no indication that Asmodean knew Slayer (they're never put together) so if it's OBVIOUS at the end of TFH, then it CANNOT be slayer.

Rand didn't do it.... he's still wondering in LOC where Asmodean is....

Now, one thing that should be noted is that Asmodean's body ALSO disappears... there is no corpse left behind... it was not a Gholam that killed him, (this is another point against Slayer... look at his MO.... he leaves spectacles of his victims.)

But I still think the telling evidence is in that line "death took him." Because of the time, it can't be Moridin as I originally thought. But TOOK.... Death TOOK him...

I'd have to bet on Aran'gar or Osan'gar, then (probably Balthamel... notorious for his temper) as one named by the Dark One, and named as a blade to be used (by him) he/she makes the most sense as an assassin.

HawkeWolfe: 2004-03-19

Honestly Terrence right after I read that scene I thought it was either Moraine or Lanfear...I just did not know how. The 2 problems I have with the Lan theory is the fact that 1)when Asmo opened the door he was both shocked and scared! From his comments "You! No..." it seemed to me as if he had seen a ghost and knew in that final instant he was going to die. I think that if he had seen Lan he would have said something like, "what are you doing here?".

2) Asmo can channel. It might be weak channeling due to Lanfear's shield, but he can still channel enough to stop a non-channeller from using ANY normal weapon on him. It is for that reason, that I believe that Asmo's killer had to be a channeller. And to be honest male channellers can only be sensed if they are close, and if the weave was real quick Aviendha may not have realized what was going on if it was a woman. As I said my first instinctive reaction was Lanfear or Moraine, I just did not know how it was done.

Davian93: 2004-03-19

****a) time - I looked at the map, Camelyn to Cairhein is approx. the same distance as Kinslayers dagger to Cairhein. If I remember correctly, it took Rand 1.5 days to reach Cairhein after he got the Horn back in TGH, this with a heavy chest and 3 other companions, not to mention a small escort after the midnight stopover where that giant statue thing was...I am sure a warhorse and a warder bent on vengeance will cover that distance very fast... ****

Its actually further than that, a lot further. As for Rand covering the distance, it took him, Loial, and Hurin a lot longer than a day and a half to reach Cairhien from Kinslayer. Asmodean was killed something like 12 hours after Lan left Cairhien. Timing makes it impossible.

Callandor: 2004-03-19

**questions i have: why does it have to be a Dark character whodunit and why does it have to be a channeller (whether OP or TP)**

Because of what the crime is: Murder.

**My impression of who Asmo's killer was, is Lan Gaidan.

Things counting for Lan:

Lan's a blademaster, anyone want to argue that.... and we keep getting info on how quick and deadly they are and furthermore,**

Argument #1: Blademasters are fast, the One Power is faster. Even Asmodean can weave a sheild of Air around him before Lan could even get his sword out.

**c) Moiraine knew Nateal's real identity since entering Rhuidean...**

Moiraine has kept things from Lan before, and just assuming Lan knew from interpreting her feelings is pretty faulty.

**f) Lan is one of the main characters, why does he disappear after Moiraine's "death" and reappears a few books later in Salidar, with the look of death in his eye's and cuts and bruises...etc (not a quote but along those lines)**

Because he traveled half way across the "world" on horseback to meet up with his new bond holder, which he happened to be required to seek out ONCE Moiraine died.

**g) He's got an Aes Sedai sword...the sword of the Malkeiri Kings... should be sharp enough to make a nice clean blow...**

A nice clean blow... that leaves blood, and a body. Rand thinks that Asmodean ran away, and no evidence of the body has been found. Death by sword, would leave some traces of evidence.

**a) time - I looked at the map, Camelyn to Cairhein is approx. the same distance as Kinslayers dagger to Cairhein....**

No way. In TSR, Perrin can't even make it from the edge of the West Wood (just past the Sand Hills, before Emond's Field) to his family's house which is by the Waterwood, without driving his horse to death before the day is up. Rand went DIRECTLY from Cairhien to Camelyn, killed Rahvin, and later that exact day Asmodean died. 1 day. No way Lan could make it, even on a warhorse without aid.

**-not a channeller since Rand and Avienhda would have felt a male or female channeller's presence, (not to mention Asmo himself). therefore he was killed using conventional means...I didn't know enough about the True power at this point either...**

No, we are given extremely vauge indications on how far Asmodean traveled away from where Rand and Avi where, and could have very easily been killed without them noticing if the weave was small enough in Power.

**Ask yourself, the first time you read WoT... who did you suspect killed Asmo at that point in the story (end of FoH)... that's the answer.**

First suspect: Lanfear. Always has been always will.

charliec: 2004-03-20

personally I'm dead set against the idea that it was Moiraine or Lanfear/Cyndane... I'm convinced Moiraine was still held by the Finn at teh time (and probably still is), and even if Lanfear was escaped/released/killed+transmigrated in time (which I sincerely doubt) then I think she had bigger fish to fry. If she was in Caemlyn I think she'd have been more interested in exacting vengeance on Lews Therin than Asmodean, and so soon after reincarnation she'd probably still be being breifed/bound/bollocked by Shaidar Haran or Moridin.

I agree that Lan would have been busy seeking Myrelle, and also that the recognition+fear indicate that it was a DF-assassin type that Asmo would recognise (so not fain, moridin, slayer/isam), and that could have survived the power...

I don't have any idea who it actually is though.... :-(

Isn't it funny how threads like this go quiet for a while then resurface? I wonder if there's any limit on how long they can get...

Darren: 2004-03-20

I started thinking about the whole Lanfear thing... a few things went through my mind....

If Lanfear killed Asmodean, then she was definitely Cyndane when she did it. Why? At first, I thought it had to be the reverse, because of the timing, and the necessity of waiting on the DO's pleasure for a new body, but if Lanfear was at her full power when she moved on Asmodean, she would also have moved on Aviendha, and, presumably Rand... so she was diminished.

(If this logic seems contradictory, it's why I'm still thinking I was suckered into thinking Lanfear did it.

But then something else re-occurred to me... isn't it odd that Lanfear tumbled through that doorway with Moiraine, and now she's dead, and at about Moiraine's level of strength?

I might be out in left field here, but I'm thinking that when Thom pulls that blue stone out of the fire, it's gonna be a New and Improved Moiraine.

charliec: 2004-03-20

interesting suggestion Darren, but swapping strengths in the power- is that possible? I doubt it, it's a fairly fundamental characteristic (sure, people who are severed then healed are sometimes weaker, but only because of imperfect healing... my bet is that something like that happened to Lanfear)

Malkier: 2004-03-20

"If she was in Caemlyn I think she'd have been more interested in exacting vengeance on Lews Therin than Asmodean, and so soon after reincarnation she'd probably still be being breifed/bound/bollocked by Shaidar Haran or Moridin."

As I said, Lanfear wasnt there for vengeance, she was there for the Choedan Kal. Asmodean just was in the wrong place at the wrong time. I dont think she would of went after Rand, because the DO did NOT want him dead at this time. "Let the Lord of Chaos rule". Since Lanfear had just recently...displeased? ...the DO, I dont think she would purposely go against his wishes again right away, as she knows she would regret it.

Callandor: 2004-03-20

**But then something else re-occurred to me... isn't it odd that Lanfear tumbled through that doorway with Moiraine, and now she's dead, and at about Moiraine's level of strength?**

No way. Lanfear as Cyndane is nowhere near Moiraine's strength. Moiraine and Siuan were roughly the same strength; Nynaeve could overpower Siuan, so she could overpower Moiraine. Egwene and Elayne are said to be able to have more strength then Moiraine or Siuan (more equalled to Cadsuane); Nynaeve is compared to both of them as "a roaring fire compared to a candle" (or something to that extent). Nynaeve equaled Moggy, and (this is the only vauge connection) Moggy is most likely on par with Graendal. Graendal remarked that Cyndane is still more powerful then her.

SO, if you want to go by numbers, if Moiraine were a 9, then Siuan would be about a 9, Elayne and Egwene would be about 12 or 13, Cadsuane would be about 13, Nynaeve would be about 18, Moggy would be about 18, Graendal would be about 18, Cyndane would be at least 19. Granted it would still be a drop from Lanfear's older strength, most likely a 20 or 21 possibly, but it is still way past Moiraine's level.

**If Lanfear killed Asmodean, then she was definitely Cyndane when she did it...but if Lanfear was at her full power when she moved on Asmodean, she would also have moved on Aviendha, and, presumably Rand... so she was diminished.**

Use of wishes can compensate for that.

Darren: 2004-03-21

Lanfear was hiding in the pantry looking for the Choedan Kal (you mean the access key/keys)?

In the pantry. Cause that's where Rand would have kept it...

**If Lanfear killed Asmodean, then she was definitely Cyndane when she did it...but if Lanfear was at her full power when she moved on Asmodean, she would also have moved on Aviendha, and, presumably Rand... so she was diminished.**

Use of wishes can compensate for that.

I just don't see it... I'm not saying she didn't kill Asmo, (if it wasn't Moridin, then who I'm betting on has been said, but I'm not exactly betting the farm) but I don't see her wishing for time duration power or something... If Lanfear was the killer, I still see her doing it as Cyndane.

As to the power flipping thing, I'll admit I might be out in left field, but she WASN'T healed from stilling (the forsaken don't know how to do that) and neither do we have any real clear indication as to the level of her strength... just that she's diminished, and a lot weaker than the other Forsaken. But hey, so was Moiraine. Judging from the scene of the Cleansing, I would say she's still a heck of a lot stronger than Siuan after stilling, or Asmodean under his binding.

Like we all say, Finnland is an odd and largely unknown place... Moiraine saw a plethora of her futures outlaid in those rings, and going through the doorway was definitely part of the plan. One may assume she also learned what to wish for.

I may well be wrong, but I'm sticking to my guns.

Callandor: 2004-03-21

**As to the power flipping thing, I'll admit I might be out in left field, but she WASN'T healed from stilling (the forsaken don't know how to do that) and neither do we have any real clear indication as to the level of her strength... just that she's diminished, and a lot weaker than the other Forsaken.**

No, we KNOW for fact that Cyndane is still stronger then Graendal.

**TITLE: The Path of Daggers, CHAPTER 12: New Alliances

"Graendal kept her own face smooth, with a little effort. She had supposed this girl some Friend of the Dark whom Moghedien had picked up to run errands, perhaps a noble who thought her title counted, but now that she was close.... The girl was stronger in the One Power that she herself! Even in her own Age, that had been uncommon among men, and very rare indeed among women. On the instant, on instinct, she changed her intention to deny any contact with Sammael."

Malkier: 2004-03-21

"Lanfear was hiding in the pantry looking for the Choedan Kal (you mean the access key/keys)?

In the pantry. Cause that's where Rand would have kept it... "

As it has been stated a billion time, Asmodean was LOOKING for the pantry, it does not say he actually entered it. Cause if that was true, then the same excuse could be used for any char, because who the hell would be in the pantry?

HawkeWolfe: 2004-03-22

I have to disagree with the Lanfear being Cyndane at the time of Asmo's death due to one fact...Asmo recognized who his killer was! and we know from when Greandal meets Cyndane that she did not recognize Lanfear in her new body. There is NO way she was Cyndane at the time of Asmo's murder. It is really going to suck if RJ leaves this one unresolved for good...

Darren: 2004-03-22

hey maybe he hid the access keys in the flour jar.... perhaps in Randland that was still a novel solution

TheNetweaver: 2004-03-22

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't RJ say in an interview that the killer should be "intuitively obvious" from the moment it happens? The definition of intuition is: immediate apprehension by the mind without reasoning. I have 5 friends who have read the series, and all of them felt it was Lanfear after finishing TFOH. Graendal would not be obvious, Taim would not be obvious, Slayer would not be obvious, Shaidar Haran would not be obvious, Moiraine might be obvious. I think Callandor's framework for the murder is the most compelling that anyone has put forward, for any of th possible killers. However, in RJ's latest interview he says that somebody "deduced" the correct killer, suggesting that the answer can be reasoned out, without hypothesizing. I don't have the books with me at school, but for anyone willing to do the work it appears that the answer is out there. The proposal that Lanfear was after the Choeden Kal could fill in a hole in Callandor's theory (the conjecture that Lanfear was after Rand and happened to find Asmodean, instead).

Callandor: 2004-03-22

**The proposal that Lanfear was after the Choeden Kal could fill in a hole in Callandor's theory (the conjecture that Lanfear was after Rand and happened to find Asmodean, instead).**

Just finished TSR again, and found this:

**TITLE: The Shadow Rising, CHAPTER 58: The Traps of Rhuidean

"Out from the great tree, a little searching among the jumble found what he sought. Kicking aside pieces of what seemed to be spiraled glass tubes, he shoved a plain-carved chair of red crystal aside and picked up a foot-tall figurine, a robed woman with a serene face, worked in white stone, holding up a clear sphere in one hand. Unbroken. As useless to him, or any man, as its male twin was to Lanfear. He concidered breaking it. One swing of his arm could shatter that crystal globe on the paving stones, surely.

"She was looking for that." He had not realized Asmodean had followed him. Wavering, the man scrubbed at his bloody mouth. "She will rip your heart out to put her hands on it."

"Or yours, for keeping it secret from her. She loves me." Light help me. Like being loved by a rabid wolf! After a moment he put the female statue in the crook of his arm with the male. There might be a use for it. And I don't want to destroy anything else.**

However, Rand kept the access keys in Rhuidean since the beginning of TFOH, and didn't move them from there till ACOS. Make what you will of it.

Davian93: 2004-03-22

**** but didn't RJ say in an interview that the killer should be "intuitively obvious" from the moment it happens? The definition of intuition is: immediate apprehension by the mind without reasoning. I have 5 friends who have read the series, and all of them felt it was Lanfear after finishing TFOH.****

After rereadin TFOH, I also believe Lanfear is responsible. Lanfear in the wine cellar with the candlestick. She probably used the secret passage from the kitchen to escape.

dragonsceptor: 2004-03-23

Am I the only one who never thought of Lanfear when reading the books? I honestly didn't care enough to think about it but Lanfear was the furthest from my mind. I am honestly surprised to hear so many people say that they thought it was lanfear when they read the books. I'm not sure who I believe killed Asmo but I still don't think Lanfear meets the obvious test. Guess this is just one more example of the different perspectives that people have.

Davian93: 2004-03-23

****Am I the only one who never thought of Lanfear when reading the books?****

The first couple times I read it, I didnt think it was Lanfear, but after rereading it and really thinking about how its supposed to be "intuitably obvious who killed him", in my mind Lanfear fits that category.

charliec: 2004-03-24

I also have never felt that it was Lanfear, and all my intuition tells me that she was out of the picture until she became Cyndane.

If she came back from Finnland as Lanfear, then as I've said before I htink she'd have more important things on her mind than going to Caemlyn to look for the ter'angreal (and they were VERY unlikely to be there) or to kill Asmodean.

Furthermore, if she was back as Lanfear then she would also have had to be killed at some later point... that's the kind of thing that would show up in SOMEONE's POV, not least her own. I definitely don't accept any suggestion that she was killed as punishment then reincarnated... if the DO wanted to punish her that badly then he wouldn't be bringing her back now would he?

She definitely fails the intuitive test for me.

My immediate assumption: someone was sent specifically to kill Asmodean, not only was he a renegade, but with Lanfear gone he was uncontrollable.

jason wolfbrother: 2004-03-25

First time I read the series I read that Lanfear and Moiraine went through the doorway. Lan immediately noticed the bond breaking. I suspected that Moiraine still lived, and by extension Lanfear. However, I did not even remotely think she could have gotten out of *finnland in time to arrive in Caemlyn to kill Asmodean. The first time I read I had no idea who could have done it. The second time I paid attention to the first 5 books and came away with Graendal. She is still the one that has to be disproven. Every other suspect first has to be proven as a viable suspect. Graendal has to be disproven as a suspect and no one has done so.

Callandor: 2004-03-25

**My immediate assumption: someone was sent specifically to kill Asmodean, not only was he a renegade, but with Lanfear gone he was uncontrollable.**

Why is that? Asmodean was a traitor in everyone's eyes; no one knew about Lanfear's involvement with Asmodean.

Darren: 2004-03-26

The way the LOC begins, with the DO rambling in Demandred's head about "who betrays me shall die the final death" indicates to me that he sent someone for Asmodean. Always has... always will.

oniDahL: 2004-03-26

if the DO killed Lanfear as punishment for failing him(and trying to get Rand to join her in overthrowing him), he didn't just kill her. he also weakened her strength in the OP and gave her soul to Moridin(soultrap).

charliec: 2004-03-26

But why make your own servant weaker? The Soul trap is an awesome enough punishment and way of controlling people... Moghedien surely failed far more seriously than Lanfear, and yet she was 'only' soul trapped.

**Why is that? Asmodean was a traitor in everyone's eyes; no one knew about Lanfear's involvement with Asmodean.**

It's hard to tell what people know, and sometimes the Forsaken or the DO know more than others realise about each other.

: 2004-03-28

This post might be somewhat messy, I've just read through something like 75% of all the post in this theory. I skipped most of the "Lanfear Did it" as I belive most, if not all, of it is pure invention. Does it shine a bit that I do not think that Lanfear did it :o), I don't. But messy because there has been so many topics brought forward, so I have a lot on my mind to say about this.

But let's start with Lanfear. She never even came in to my thoughts, not the first time not the 6'th time and last week I finished reading tFoH again and trying to really pay attention. No Lanfear. Primary reason to discount her is. 1. the *Finn has her - the "Held" business doesn't mean anything, Aelfinn said in January "but how WOULD you refer to your own death?", I think I might even have posted something like it somewhre else. 2. WHY would Lanfear, even if she was hypothetically(sp?) able to do it, why kill Asmodean - She is a belittled lover IMO she would go for Aviendha(she would go for the one she thought was Avi, anyway), or even more plausible she would go directly for Rand. And don't come throwing something about the DO wanting Rand alive - she wouldn't care. So no I don't Lanfear could do it and if she could she wouldn't have done it.

Slayer - never even thought about him either. He seems to be way "off stage" at this time, perhaps recovering from the wound Perrin gave him.

Graendal, I don't know, but it seems to mw that it might be too risky for her, and again why would she. And no the "to please the DO" doesn't cut it. Asmodean is really not important enough to be made naeblis over. I do however like the Servants theory.

Bashere, Now I like him as the doer. Jordan has said that it should be obvious to the casual observer, to me only Bashere fits the bill. There are holes, to be sure - or rather there is one hole, Motive!. but on an Agatha Christie level, the clue there is points to Bashere, with the Wine. Up until the point when Lanfear throws Kadere's skin, and starts the fight with Rand/Moiraine, I had Kedere as the killer(in the last read that is). But that didn't work out. So not my 2-cents is with Bashere, I son't see any evidence that the Power is involved.

So it's Bashere or Graendal. Now the point with the servants, i had not really thought about untill I read it here, I like it but It doesn't really stick anyway. There are two servant cowering in the hallway, when Rand comes around they "stay" in the role as servants. Why would Sammael and Graendal not try something. Sammael may or may not have been able to discern what amount of the power Rand was holding, Graendal shouldn't be able to. but even then if they linked and took Rand out by "backstabbing" him the risk should have been minimal, but to my recollection the female faints!. But with an open mind I will agree that the incident establishes Graendal's (and Sammael's) presence in Caemlyn. But I would think Graendal would use compulsion on Asmodean in stead. I mean he was not in at position to fight back anyway, and with Graendal's perversions in mind, I would think that if she wants a Queen or a King as servant, why not a former Chosen - Look what happens to you if you are not a good bad-boy, even if you rank high within the councils. Whatever I don't really think Graendal is obvious.

So it leaves Bashere, why would he do it?, he might be a Darkfriend (I hope not, but he might). This is my reasoning, I don't like it but I think it somehow makes sense.

We are all basically in line with Taim not being Demandred. But Taim is Saldaean, like Bashere.

We have Forsaken taking up places in, Tear(Be'lal), Illian(Sammael), Arad Doman(Greandal), Tarabon(Moghedien, Ok so she might have been there for other reasons), Tar Valon(Mesaana), Caemlyn(Rahvin), and with the Corenne(Semirhage, unconfirmed but argued plausibly). Add Ishamael who died, and became Moridin(whereabouts unknown), Aginor, and Balthamel who was at SG(being resurrected, it might have been anywhere I agree) at the time but went on to the Black Tower respectively the Little Tower(Salidar). Lanfear with the *finn, and Asmodean being the center of attention here, that leaves only one forsaken unaccounted for. Yes prize to the gentleman with Dragons on his forearms in the Redcoat that would be Demandred. Now which part of the word is absent above? the Borderlands!!. My guess at Demandreds whereabouts is in the Borderlands. My next assumptions is that Taim is not the Demandred Proxy near Rand, Bashere is (Demandred is not posing as Bashere, 1 Bashere is too short and as far as I recall a MoM cannot change your height to smaller, 2 I seriously doubt Demandred could make himself pose as a subordinate to the Dragon, Taim behaviour would be much more likely). Also Aran'ger(Aginor) attaches himself to the Black Tower which to my mind discounts Demandred to have influence there, if som Aran'gar would have gone elsewhere. So I think that Bashere was sent to Rand by Demandred, not to kill Asmodean, but with that as a sort of by-mission. As to the You? No! this seems to throw most theories off, I haven't got a clue, BUT Kadere was Saldaean, Mebbe Bashe established the contact between Kadere and Asmodean/Lanfear, and knows him from there. Anyway this would explain the aparent surprise Asmodean exclaims Bashere should be by the blight,right. And the NO!, well our lillte harp playing coward would fear ANY darkfriend, who could possibly denounce him. As to the speed in the killing, PLEASE any borderland man brobably know as many ways of killing as a Domani woman knows ways of kissing (which incidently is 94 if memory serves me well).

I'm for Bashere doing it, sad as he is one of my favourite characters besides Verin - who by the was is not Evil!! :o)

Callandor: 2004-03-29

**2. WHY would Lanfear, even if she was hypothetically(sp?) able to do it, why kill Asmodean - She is a belittled lover IMO she would go for Aviendha(she would go for the one she thought was Avi, anyway), or even more plausible she would go directly for Rand. And don't come throwing something about the DO wanting Rand alive - she wouldn't care. So no I don't Lanfear could do it and if she could she wouldn't have done it.**

She knew Asmodean was a bad teacher and didn't expect him to do his job of teaching Rand as good as he did; she wanted to be the superior of the two.

Also, if you read the Lanfear did it, wishes come into factor along with the ta'vereness of Rand. I don't want to say them again (go elsewhere for that) since I have said it many many times.

**We have Forsaken taking up places in...PLEASE any borderland man brobably know as many ways of killing as a Domani woman knows ways of kissing (which incidently is 94 if memory serves me well).**

1. Demandred is most likely affiliated somehow with the Black Tower (doesn't have to take up residnecy there, but he knows it and has done somethings).

2. Mask of Mirrors can make you taller or smaller. It is just best to keep as close to your actual features as possible.

3. Asmodean would fear a Darkfriend exposing him? No way. Rand might, but not Asmodean.

4. Asmodean could still channel the Power, if weakly. Even a tiny bit of the Power, can make a wall of Air that would block off all possible means of attak by a non-channeler.

5. Why would Demandred send a non-channeler to take out a Forsaken level channeling man? Demandred had NO idea that Asmodean had a partial shield on him. The ONLY ones who knew were Rand, Asmodean, and Lanfear. Going off of what Demandred knew, he would expect Bashere to be dead in 5 seconds.

6. Bashere's POV in CoT gives no idication whatsoever of him being a Darkfriend. My own personal theory is that the first time RJ gives us a point of view, if we cannot openly see that the character is evil at all, they are not (I have yet to be given any kind of counter example to go against this in a year and a half).

I think we can cross Bashere off the list.

TheNetweaver: 2004-03-29

Again, I don't have my books, but I'll do my best. First, to jason, why does every character besides Graendal have to be proven? Don't you give equal weight to each character until evidence proves otherwise? Don't be biased in your presuppositions. To the most recent post, the one without a name: Lanfear is more than just a jilted lover; she had a plan to rule over the world. This is essential. She wanted to use the Choeden Kal with Rand to dominate everything, even the Dark One. In addition, she wanted to be the top dog this time, not LTT (reborn). I believe Asmodean says at one point, "She means to be more powerful this time around." Or something along those lines. Lanfear had assigned Asmodean to be Rand's teacher, while she kept a watchful eye on them. At some point, Lanfear was going to cut off Asmodean so that she could maintain her superior position. When the Rahvin debacle goes down, she's suddenly lost her ability to control events--and to monitor how much Asmodean has taught Rand. There is definite motive to kill Asmodean, not Aviendha. Now, just for argument's sake, let's assume Lanfear was the killer. The question to me is, why did she go after Asmodean but not after Rand? Either she ran into him by accident, or something prevented her from going after the Dragon Reborn. Whether it was fear, or the finns played a role, we may never know. One last point: Jordan seems to believe that you can solve this problem before Lord of Chaos. He only put clues in because people kept asking about it. How many chapters has Graendal even been in at the end of TFOH, like two?

oniDahL: 2004-03-29

bashere doesn't fit the obvious part. he has just come too caemlyn looking for taim and you see him talk to rand one time. and the thing about the wine. RJ said all the evidence could be found before and in tFoH. the wine thing is in LoC. besides Rand talks to Bashere while Asmo goes looking for a pantry.

and it takes too much thinking to find the locations of all the Forsaken and its just speculation that Bashere is a DF.

and just as you said. why would he kill him? and why didn't Asmo just knock him down with a club of Air or tie him up? he is strong enough to do that

Unicorn: 2004-03-30

I feel that I need to address some points not least because my post had no name, and just in case it is missing again - Hello I'm Unicorn

Callandor -

My theory is that at this point Lanfear is in a frenzy, all plans are abandoned, NOTHING MATTERS ANYMORE - she lost it, plans are thrown overboard. My feeling is that Kaderes skin comes flying out of the wagon side is about as much time as it takes to skin a man after Kadere tells her his idea that Aviendha has bedded Rand. She is not rational at this time.

**2. Mask of Mirrors can make you taller or smaller. It is just best to keep as close to your actual features as possible. **

And bashere is really short -and Demandred almost as tall as Rand, my point was only that Demandred is not posing as Bashere
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**3.** I think Asmodean would fear any Darkfriend, they might have been warned about hims as a traitor.

**5. ** I did not mean that Demandred sent Bashere with that goal, but that he may has posted an ABP on Asmodeans head, sort of a "oh and if you see my ex-friend the Harper, kill him if you can"

**6. Bashere's POV in CoT gives no idication whatsoever of him being a Darkfriend. My own personal theory is that the first time RJ gives us a point of view, if we cannot openly see that the character is evil at all, they are not (I have yet to be given any kind of counter example to go against this in a year and a half). ** You are right!, I even have some idea like that my self, that any POV of a Darkfriend will show it, but never the less it is a possibility, we may yet be surprised.

- Netweaver

**First, to jason, why does every character besides Graendal have to be proven? Don't you give equal weight to each character until evidence proves otherwise? Don't be biased in your presuppositions.** Why do you not say the same to Callandor?

And I will agree that Lanfear WAS(now she is Moridins pet), more than a jilted lover, but read above at the time she wnt thru the doorway she was PISSED, AND by the way she lost her control just before the Rahvin debacle.

And it occurs to me that you have the same difficulties with her going after Asmodean as me, but you have decided that Lanfear did it, and you are different from Jason exactly how?

oniDahL

You are absolutely right he doesn't fit be obvious bill, problem is no one dies no mattter what Jordan says, you can read 265 posts on this theory alone - and there are more on the subject. I do not mean this as a "rebuke", I am serious I do not think anybody is obvious.

BUT the wine thing is not in Lord of Chaos it is in chapter 56 of the Fires of Heaven(middle page 884 orbit paperback) actually a little before Asmodeans famous last words.

The WHO did it is supposed to be obvious to the casual observer, not the why.

I'll admit that my explanation as to why is pure speculation

but then again so are most posts trying to prove Lanfear did it :o)

Callandor: 2004-03-30

**My theory is that at this point Lanfear is in a frenzy...She is not rational at this time.**

Exactly, and if you would take time to read my theory elsewhere posted, you would see the answer to this.

**You are right!, I even have some idea like that my self,...we may yet be surprised.**

Give an example that goes against it. If none are shown, the rule stands.

TheNetweaver: 2004-03-31

Unicorn-

I realized that I would look hypocritical, so let me explain myself. From what I know involving Asmodean's death, I've come to the conclusion that Lanfear is more likely than anyone else. I don't pretend to know who did it, however, and I don't say to other people, all other characters besides Lanfear have a greater burden of proof. That's basically what jason said. When I say "let's assume it's Lanfear", I said that for the sake of debate on the circumstances that would involve her killing Asmodean. To me, the main question remains how and why Lanfear was in that location to kill Asmodean. Was she there to kill Asmodean, and if so, why not go after Rand? The new possibility is that she was searching for the Choeden Kal. Also, Asmodean dies at least a day after Lanfear. Finnland seems to have a different time continuum, but I still think Lanfear would have become rational by then. After all, the Forsaken have extremely capable minds.

dragonsceptor: 2004-03-31

***I do not mean this as a "rebuke", I am serious I do not think anybody is obvious.***

Unicorn, I completely agree with you. I have not heard one possible suspect that does not have a valid argument against them being obvious.

Some of you may disagree but I think that is because you are too attached to your idea. As I am someone who does not care who killed Asmo, I am not attached to any one killer and when I weigh all the evidence, all of the suspects have evidence for an against them. I would hope that we could all take a step back from our "gut" and examine the evidence from a logical perspective. It seems to me that no new evidence has been presented in a while. Why can't everyone to agree to disagree?

charliec: 2004-04-01

I can't remember anyone suggesting this culprit...

Asmodean's killer was... himself.

The taint got to him, he hallucinated and neatly fried himself out of existence, except for a little pile of dust that the maid cleaned up.

Hmm, maybe not, but it's as likely as Lanfear.

TheNetweaver: 2004-04-02

We're really beating this to death, but we may as well keep the debate open--never know when some new ideas will pop up. Can a valid argument be made against someone being "obvious"? I don't think so, because obvious is a subjective term. In the case of Graendal, personally, I don't see how anyone can consider her obvious. She barely has a presence through the first five books, and most of the arguments for her are saying "go back and look at this quote from this perspective, think about her relationship with these forsaken." Is there a slim possibility? Yes. Is it obvious? I don't think so. Lanfear has clear connections with Asmodean and Rand throughout TSR and TFOH, and she has a clear motive to kill either of the two. Most importantly, she clearly has that motive at the end of TFOH, when Graendal is only a recluse. Still, the Lanfear theory has lots of holes in it, which is something I'm trying to work through. Let's put it this way: it appears to be the least wrong. This isn't good enough for me, but it's the reason that I support Lanfear as the killer before any others. While there's not enough evidence for an indictment, she's suspect number one.

Anubis: 2004-04-02

i heard an interesting theory. it revolved around when rand was running through the palace after rahvin, he pushes two servants out of the way. we find out that all servants have flet a while ago so this is slightly odd. i believe that the two servants were actually forsaken in disguise sent to assassinate asmodean by the dark one. i believe furthermore that they were 2 of the ones involved in the plan to form a link and capture rand should he go after sammael, but im not sure dont have book if there are enough suspects in there.

Unicorn: 2004-04-02

-Callandor.

Please direct me to your posts re Lanfear because i can't find them and it annoys me really bad.

I have however read a number of posts regarding Lanfear from you both in this and in the lanfear was not kill.. theory.

You seem to be advocating strongly that Lanfear was stilled when the angreal was ripped away, this does not collaborate very well with you arguing that only a channeler coud have done it.

But more to the point of the "who dun it"

Obvious, I have pondered that, - obvious to the casual reader/observer.

a show of hands please - How many participants in this forum is a casual reader of the wheel of time.

My guess would be noone - we cannot consider ourselves casual. I think that most suspects in this require much too much thinking and paraleling this or that incident. So todays homework get someone to read the fires of heaven and point a finger!

I would bet that the Sherlock Holmes/Hercule Poirot fan would not even think of Lanfear - dhe died 5 pages ago(ok for arguments sake she waltzed in to the finn made a deal, and went home, but the casual reader wouldn't have picked that up IMO).

I would think the really sharp one would pick up on the two servants, but may dismiss it because as it has been pointed out Graendal was hardly mentioned up until Lord of Chaos. The only other hardcore mystery clue there is, would be Bashere and the Wine, true it is thin weak and not a hell of a lot,(IMO still better than a total ego/power trippers intreprtaion that she was "held")

I will concede that it is not that obvious, and has a lot of holes but I am afraid that some of this talk is seriously overintrepreting the whole issue.

To be honest, the very first time I read the series I couldn't care less who killed asmodean, that came later on.

And by the way thank you dragonsceptor for not letting me be the only one with a bead feeling that bashere might just turn out bad - even if you had the notion before me.

charliec: 2004-04-03

We often get a bit hung up on little clues... RJ said it was 'obvious', but clearly it's not so obvious to us, RJ was speaking from the rather privileged position of being the only person with all the facts at his disposal, and it is possible that it's not quite so obvious as he thought... writers have been known to make mistakes and misjudge their readers before...

dragonsceptor: 2004-04-04

Unicorn...It wasn't my idea originally...I read on one of the numerous posts that that someone (no idea who now) thought Bashere was a DF and was involved in Asmo's death. I have kind of championed the idea from there because I believe it fills some other gaps besides Asmo's killer...but that is a discussion for another thread. I agree with your point that we are not casual readers...otherwise we would not spend at least a few hours a week thinking and discussing the books on this site. I honestly did think about or care who killed asmo until i came to this site. My gut tells me that we are all wrong and we haven't considered the real killer yet...I know RJ said someone has figured it out...but that doesn't mean it is anyone who has shared their ideas with anyone...they could have just sent a letter to RJ and kept it selfishly to themselves. I do not think we will ever KNOW. I think RJ will leave it hanging at the end of the series.

oortwaynes: 2004-04-05

ok ive been going thru old RJ interviews. in a CNN interview in december 2000 he is asked about us finding out asmodeans killer. The questioner then says "Graendal killed him"

RJ answers that he "cant understand why people cant figure that out"

Is it me or is RJ telling us that Graendal killed Asmodean. And if it was her WHY was it her?? Any insight would be appreciated

dragonsceptor: 2004-04-06

This interview could be taken a couple of ways. 1) He was confirming that Greandal is the killer or 2) He is expressing amazement that people are still discussing this and haven't figured it out. From the context of the rest of his answer, it seems clear to me it is the second answer. He was talking about the question of who killed Asmo as a whole and not the specific question he was asked which ws did greandal kill asmo.

Callandor: 2004-04-07

**Is it me or is RJ telling us that Graendal killed Asmodean. And if it was her WHY was it her?? Any insight would be appreciated**

Quote the entire interview.

**Question from Vercingetorix: Why do you think everyone has a hard time figuring out who killed Asmodean? Graendal killed him.

Robert Jordan: I don't know why people have a hard time figuring that out. To me it seems intuitively obvious even to the most casual observer. The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much. It's probably bad for me.**

Everyone always says, "RJ is saying Graendal did it!"; dead wrong. He is saying that he does not see why it is so hard to figure out who killed Asmodean.

And no, it can't be taken two ways for a simple reason: why would he confirm who killed Asmodean, and then 24 words later say he will not say who killed him? Makes no sense at all if you interpret it like that; hence he did not confirm that Graendal did it at all.

istarifire: 2004-04-14

I'm still convinced its Shaidar Haran

First off, Asmodean doesn't necessarily recognize his killer at first. He wouldn't have to know Shaidar Haran. the "You?" is him scorning a Myddraall trying to kill him. Then he reaches for the true source and it is blocked. Thus the "No!" The blood drains from his face because he realizes that this can't be a normal myddrall. Then he is annihilated with black fire.

: 2004-04-15

istarifire, what is his motiviation? How does he meet the obvious test when he is not introduced until the next book?

Also, the tone of "You? No!" sounds like he knew the person who killed him.

Callandor: 2004-04-15

**I'm still convinced its Shaidar Haran**

Met first in LoC, first Forsaken to mention him/meet him for sure is Demandred, and going by Graendal, Semirhage, and Moggy's POV of Shaidar Haran, he is brand new as of that point; Asmodean hadn't been in Forsaken action or anywhere near Shayol Ghul as of the end of TSR. How would he recognize him? How is it obvious?

charliec: 2004-04-16

motivation for Shadar Haran shouldn't be hard to construct, and I like the explanation of "You? No!" (coming to be some very famous, if unimaginative, last words!), but I agree that 'obvious' in this case would be pushing it a bit far...

dragonsceptor: 2004-04-16

Sorry...the nameless post above was me.

Laman: 2004-04-16

I've been watching this thread for a while, and while I see the various lines of theories, I think that it actually was Mazrim Taim who killed Asmodean. Why? A couple of things.

I start with RJ's quote that the killer should be obvious. That for me suddenly tonight came to mean that, for anyone just reading TFoH that it should be obvious. Anything taken after would tend to obscure what was happening. If I'm not clear - I think RJ was saying that if one was reading only the TFoH, that it should be obvious who killed Asmodean, just by reading TFoH by itself (I'm not being clear am I?).

So I went back to look at the last chapter of TFoH (next book I'm rereading in any case) and was taken by Bashere's quote "Taim is in Andor. I am sure of it." Then the famous scene of Asmodean's.

Why am I taken by this? Of course this is where I leave my little theory of RJ syaing what he means within the books he meant it... By looking at the first chapters of the LoC, when Rand Travels, MT is not really impressed - "The man was staring at him. If he had been watching carefully, he should have seen Rand weaving of Saidin..." If someone who didn't know how to Travel beforehand - this should have been a pretty big event; even Lanfear was surprised when Rand pulled the almost-Traveling trick in Alcair Dal to catch up to Asmodean on tSR. "A Breaking... "This time she stopped on her own. He remembered.... You do remember a few things it seems.." No one of this Age knows how to Travel outside of the Forsaken or Rand at this point; unless taught.

Which is where I think my arguent is going. If the prevelant attitude is that MT is a proxie for a Forsaken (Demandred in my belief), then why wouldn't the Forsaken tried to teach him a few tricks? Something to help them evade capture, especially after freeing him in Saldea (personal theory). Why couldn't have MT learned of Traveling, been set up to kill Asmodean, and pulled him into T'A'R for that matter to finish the job? Small play for his masters, taught easily to him.

I'm am opposed to the Lanfear/Cyndane theory, only because of the time frame in which Cyndane finally reappeared. It took Ishmael some time to reappear after "dying"; why wouldn't it take time for Cyndane? Where did Lanfear die? RJ has been very good describing every Forsaken's death in "Randland" except for her's. But given the precept that one does not come back until after dying; and there being no death *specifically* subscribed to Lanfear, except for the fact that she went through the Doorway, I can't see that Lanfear could have done it. The Aelfinn/Eelfinn may have killed her, or Moiranine for that fact, something we will not know until the next books; but RJ took Lanfear out of the picture for a reason - and I don't see the killing of Asmodean as that.

Mazrim Taim had the motive (working for Rand against the Forsaken) and the ability, taught by the Forsaken how freed him.

But that's just my two cents.

Darren: 2004-04-17

It has been stated throughout the series that Graendal's way is NEVER direct confrontation. She even says it of herself, at the possibility that Rand might discover her. Yet despite this, there remain those who continue to cling to the baseless belief that Graendal chose to not only attack Asmodean, who she has no real interest in seeing dead, when she has to enter Rand's very house and wait in lurk to do so?

Those people are fools.

Darren: 2004-04-18

On another note, Graendal would have no way of knowing that Asmodean had been restricted in his access to the power. The only person who knew for certain (amongst the forsaken) was Lanfear, who hardly revealed that fact. (It would have meant the DO's "displeasure.)

The only other forsaken who had even been near Asmo prior to his demise was Sammael, at the battle for Cairhien. However, Asmodean did not channel at that battle, and Sammy would have had no way of assessing his strength. The distance Sammael was hardly counts as "near" to him, regardless.

So Graendal chose to enter the home of the DR, against a male forsaken she believed to be stronger than her in the power? That's not her style at all.

oniDahL: 2004-04-22

Laman

I like your theory. maybe Taim was sent to kill Asmo before he(Taim) shows up at Rand's doorstep. maybe Asmo could've recognized him as Demandred's(?) flunkie or warned Rand in a different way?

I'm still betting on Lanfear, but it is interesting. but I think I have read somewhere that Taim didn't do it.

anyone who knows?

RaelunSedai: 2004-04-22

Okay, so I'm a new Youngling who generally has trouble following all of this, but this is a quote from an interview with RJ that seems to prove that Graendal killed Asmo (It's linked on the TL site).

Question from Vercingetorix: Why do you think everyone has a hard time figuring out who killed Asmodean? Graendal killed him.

Robert Jordan: I don't know why people have a hard time figuring that out. To me it seems intuitively obvious even to the most casual observer.


Note From Tamyrlin: This has been brought up a few times within this post. Admittedly, it is long, but I recommend reading it all, and other theories on Asmodean. The question you quoted has been taken out of context. RJ continues to say that he isn't going to tell who killed Asmodean.

Davian93: 2004-04-22

****I like your theory. maybe Taim was sent to kill Asmo before he(Taim) shows up at Rand's doorstep. maybe Asmo could've recognized him as Demandred's(?) flunkie or warned Rand in a different way?****

Taim wouldnt be "obvious" and therefore fails the test. I'm sticking with Lanfear.

dragonsceptor: 2004-05-03

from the new RJ interview on WOTMania

"Did the Dark One order Asmodean's death? If not, how does he know about it in the prologue of Lord of Chaos?

No, he didn't order Asmodean's death, but he knows a great deal about what goes on in the world, though it isn't complete knowledge."

This seems to eliminate some of the suspects. Namely: Slayer, Shadar Haran, and Graendal and any other Random forsaken working on the DO's orders. Damendred could also likely be eliminated unless you still believe that he is Taim.

I think the viable suspects are Lanfear (although I still have a hard time believing this it seems to be the most likely now), Taim, Bashere (while a pet theory of mine it seems pretty unlikely), or someone else we have not discussed.

Does anyone disagree with my analysis? Did I miss any suspects?

Jaidh: 2004-05-03

Well, Asmodean is clearly dead. RJ said so in an interview. But, the question remains, who killed Asmodean?

You have weeded out the Forsaken[Dragonseptor]. What about the Gholam? Well the only problem with this is Asmo died to clean for a Gholam to have killed him. Why not Moraine, it is said that she vanished in to the door with Lanfear APPEARENTLY killing both. Appearently is the key word; she did know that Rand had Asmo because she said so in her letter to Rand after she appearently killed Lanfear. Fain could of also killed him in Camy via Ways. But then the question is raised, why Asmo? Why not someone closer to Rand or Rand himself? But then again Fain could of been following the DO's orders.

I think the part that confuses everyone is that Asmo's body was not there. So unless the murderer was sneaky or used Tel'aran'rhoid we will never know.

My theory is that Fain was carrying out the DO's orders because I belive at this time Fain was still connected to the DO. I could be wrong though.

jason wolfbrother: 2004-05-03

Why would the fact that the murder was not ordered by the DO eliminate Graendal or anyone else? The murder was a murder of opportunity, not planned. The killer was stumbled upon by Asmodean, and killed him. It was not premeditated at all. All the suspects you eliminated are not eliminated by that Interview answer. By the way: Graendal did it :)

Darren: 2004-05-04

It has now become obvious to me that Asmodean's killer was Bela.

dragonsceptor: 2004-05-04

The reason I eliminated the ones I did were motive. If the DO did not order Asmo's death, why would a Random forsaken kill him? As for Fain, again what is his motive. The quote says that the DO did not order it. Therefore for Fain to have done it, there needs to be a motive for him. What is it?

charliec: 2004-05-04

**My theory is that Fain was carrying out the DO's orders because I belive at this time Fain was still connected to the DO. I could be wrong though. **

Slayer has already described Fain as a renegade by this point, and Fain has thought about how he would die the minute one of the forsaken found him.

Callandor: 2004-05-04

**The killer was stumbled upon by Asmodean, and killed him. It was not premeditated at all.**

Please show evidence of the murderer being "stumbled" upon, instead of waiting.

Anubis: 2004-05-06

if the dark one didnt order it, why would a random forsaken kill asmo?

my god, i can think of so very many reasons. deprive rand of a valuable ally. (asmodean was probably the most loyal ally rand had at that time excepting matt and perrin. his only happy dreams were of rand winning the last battle) throwing rand off. making him think asmo had run away and was plotting revenge. simple recognition. they were spying on rand, asmo recognized them and had to die. ummmmm he looked at them funny. they didnt like one of his songs. he was there. he was a traitor and the dark one wouldnt be mad if he died. need any others?

Flinn Sedai: 2004-05-06

Well, its safe to say that it removes Slayer as a possible suspect. He is a mercenary and we know that he is employed only by the Forsaken. The Forsaken are scared spitless to go against the DO.

Demandred: 2004-05-07

The greatest problem with Asmodeans death is IMO the statement, that the killer should be obvious at the time of Asmo's death.

This alone rules out Slayer if you ask me.

But it also rules out Lanfear. Although everything points to her (for details I would advice reading Tamyrlins explanation in the chronicles-section) the problem with Lanfear is, that at the time of Asmo's death there was no reference that she is still alive. At this time she was accounted dead 100%.

Or can anyone prove me wrong? Honestly I would like that cause I do want to believe that it was Lanfear. Nobody else makes sense in my opinion...

OT: After lurking for some time I finally decided to register. This is my first activity as a member and I want to say hello to everybody. :)

jason wolfbrother: 2004-05-08

Callandor

**Please show evidence of the murderer being "stumbled" upon, instead of waiting. **

Asmodean wandered for who knows how long in who knows what direction, walking who knows how fast. The only one that knows where Asmo wound up is RJ. How could the killer be waiting when Asmo himself did not know where he was? Your turn. Show me some proof that it was premeditated and the killer was waiting.

Anubis: 2004-05-11

hey demandred finaly decided to reveal himself. who have you been hiding as and where? :D

welcome to theoryland.

oh and ive pretty much given up on this thread finding asmodeans killer. mostly the same stuff gets restated

Brendan Reborn: 2004-05-11

Wolfbrother:

Asmo, as i recall, was headed toward the wine pantry. He knew his destination. Not sure on exact quotes so I can't back that up till I get home. (i'm at school.)

Callandor: 2004-05-11

**But it also rules out Lanfear. Although everything points to her (for details I would advice reading Tamyrlins explanation in the chronicles-section) the problem with Lanfear is, that at the time of Asmo's death there was no reference that she is still alive. At this time she was accounted dead 100%.**

Umm... no. There are a lot of people, myself included, who were never convinced of Lanfear's "death".

They went into another dimension. That might cause the bond to be snapped, since there is no direct return through that doorway, but it would not cause a definate death.

**How could the killer be waiting when Asmo himself did not know where he was? Your turn. Show me some proof that it was premeditated and the killer was waiting.**

Show me that the killer was not stalking him, or ended up there by chance. There are more possibilities then just "Oh hey Asmo." ~sizzle~.

jason wolfbrother: 2004-05-13

Brendan

*Asmo, as i recall, was headed toward the wine pantry. He knew his destination. Not sure on exact quotes so I can't back that up till I get home. (i'm at school.)*

No he was looking for a wine pantry. He had no idea where one could or would be found. this was his first time in the Caemlyn Palace. How the heck would he know where the wine pantry would be? Sorry but he knew where he wanted to go, but not how to get there, hence his wandering aimlessly and opening the wrong door.

oniDahL: 2004-05-13

okay. asmo was headed for the wine pantry. he stumbled over the killer. and by the way. i never thought moiraine was dead. i still don't. therefore i didn't think lanfear was dead. any casual reader would have thought that. therefore. lanfear is obvious, has motive, has the ability, she wove the shield on asmo. nuff said

Flinn Sedai: 2004-05-14

Lanfear killing Asmo simply doesnt make sense. She has no reason to. However, if she had already been back, then she would have gone after Rand immediately.

Think about it. Just before she goes in, she only wants Rand and Aviendha dead. Then the next PoV we get from her (as Cynade) she is talking about how much she wants to kill Rand. What are the odds that she would go from a murderous rage, to not caring, to a murderous rage again. IT DOESNT MAKE SENSE!

waterbucket: 2004-05-14

Maybe Lanfear wasn't dead, but how would she have escaped from the Finns in less than a day?

Darren: 2004-05-15

the obvious problem with that is that Moiraine is still in Finnland.

Callandor: 2004-05-16

**Lanfear killing Asmo simply doesnt make sense. She has no reason to. However, if she had already been back, then she would have gone after Rand immediately.**

No reason to, besides mentioning specifically that Asmodean will die. No reason at all.

Malkier: 2004-05-16

*rubs my temples*

People keep saying Lanfear could not of done it because of lack of motive. It is very very very "obvious" that motive is NOT a requisite in this murder. Asmodean's death was a kill of opportunity. He walked in on someone who knew who Asmodean was, and didn't want him alive to tell Rand he/she was there. There is NO way someone could honestly say..."ok, here is the palace, with 100s of rooms. Asmodean is in the courtyard playing music for Mat and Aviendha. But I bet he's going to stop playing any moment, and walk randomly into room number 46 of 359....so ill go hide in there and wait for him!" Doesnt that seem stupid?

The person who killed him was looking for something. Its doubtful they were there to kill anyone, because if they were it would be Rand, and any idiot would know Rand would probably be in the throne room. The only things they could be lookin for are the Seals, and the Choedan Kal access keys. Only one person knows he has the keys, and thats our good woman Lanfear. I dont think they'd be looking for the Seals, because they're looking for the Seals in the 10th book :)

Anubis: 2004-05-17

by the time ive scrolled to the bottom of this thing ive forgotten what i was gonna say... LET IT DIE!!!

Malkier: 2004-05-17

***Maybe Lanfear wasn't dead, but how would she have escaped from the Finns in less than a day?***

You have to remember that Lanfear is, after all, Forsaken and pretty smart. She knows ALOT about the World of Dreams, it was "hers". And the tower was in the World of Dreams, and obviously able to enter and leave the Tower of Genjei through the World of Dreams. Birgitte even knew about it, and im willing to bet Lanfear knew more than she did. Theres no reason to think Lanfear could not have left the ToG via the World of Dreams, and from there its easy to go where she pleases.

***the obvious problem with that is that Moiraine is still in Finnland.***

Moiraine doesnt know jack about the World of Dreams, nor should she. And thats really only the plausible way to escape I think, since she's gone through both doors, and one door is destroyed anyways.

Oatman: 2004-05-18

Wat if Asmo was the one to train Taim, than when Taim saw him working for Rand, decided to take his former teacher out of action. This would explain why Demandred wasnt sure of Taims death at the beginning of LoC and also why Taim, definitely a DF, has a free leash to do wat he wants. Surely his teacher would be constantly checking in on him and giving them orders, but perhaps Taim feels that killing a rebel forsaken has granted him forsaken status, as Asmo's replacement

charliec: 2004-05-18

**It is very very very "obvious" that motive is NOT a requisite in this murder. Asmodean's death was a kill of opportunity.**

Not entirely certain actually, we just don't have enough information. Well said Anubis, if only everyone else would listen and join Apathy for Asmodean then maybe some new theories would have time to come through!

jason wolfbrother: 2004-05-18

Malkier

*You have to remember that Lanfear is, after all, Forsaken and pretty smart. She knows ALOT about the World of Dreams, it was "hers". And the tower was in the World of Dreams, and obviously able to enter and leave the Tower of Genjei through the World of Dreams. Birgitte even knew about it, and im willing to bet Lanfear knew more than she did. Theres no reason to think Lanfear could not have left the ToG via the World of Dreams, and from there its easy to go where she pleases.**

The Tower of Ghenjei is in the Real World as well as in TAR. It is hard to escape from in the Real World and nearly impossible to escape in TAR. per Birgitte in TSR to Perrin. The Finn realm is another realm. why would Lanfear be in TAR? She was held by the Finn. For how long? We don't know. Could have been a day, an hour, or a month. Anything else is pure speculation. All we know is that she was held.

charliec: 2004-05-19

**She knows ALOT about the World of Dreams, it was "hers".**

Nope, she CLAIMED it was hers, but others were more capable... Moggy...

Why do you think Lanfear would know more of TAR than Birgitte? Birgitte exists in TAR, spends almost her whole existance there, and presumably as a hero has access to areas that the forsaken don't... now you're dreamin' ;)

Cor Shan: 2004-05-19

Asmo got knocked off because the editors were annoyed the RJ hadn't killed anyone off that was named... aside from Narg... jk

Graendal: 2004-06-06

Since the culprit is spoda be obvious to casual reader, and no one...I mean no one (except perhaps Kaream Inmagenes), is a casual reader, I decided to take it apon myself to pawn off TFOH to a professional reader and writer. This person has no idea about the series and will give us that casual observation that we all missed by reading the first 4 books and the ones after it. I told her that I have a question for her when she finishes the book. She doesn't know what it is...but we all do. What ever answer she gives me will be my guess as to who the culprit is, whether it be Lanfear, Bashere, Taim or even me. It may not be proof, but it is a different approach than what everyone else has taken, and give us WOT fans a chance to recieve outside opinion. I'll keep ya'll posted on the results.

Naikavon: 2004-06-07

IMO I believe we have to explore 3 areas to effectively answer the long burning question of whodunit. These areas are: 1. obvious, 2. motive 3. ability. Let's begin.

1. Obviousness- (my word) RJ stated it should be intuitively obvious to even the casual reader, and that all the evidence needed to establish the identity of the culprit is present by the end of TFOH. Merriam Webster defines intuitive as "directly apprehended" and further defines obvious as "easily discovered, seen, or understood." Assuming RJ's words ring true, I will use only characters physically present or mentioned in the ch. containing the murder. Why? Because in my mind that is how the murderer would be easily seen. The following is a compilation of character names fitting the above criteria:

Rand/Avi/Mat/Enaila/Somara- all were w/ @ least 1 other person

Sulin/Bael- not likely...and hunting trollocs/fades

Gareth bloody Bryne/Elayne- Salidar

Morgase and co.- somewhere around Altara

Tenobia- not likely to come down from her throne in Saldaea

Lanfear/Bashere/Taim and the DO.

I think we can safely rule out all, save 4 viable suspects. They are in no particular order: Lanfear/Taim/Bashere and the DO. A case may be made for each meeting the intuitively obvious, but let me point out 2 interesting tidbits gleened from my first reading (intuitive...perhaps). First, each of the remaining canidates (w/ the exception of the DO, you didn't really believe he was directly responsible did you?) possess one discernible factor connecting them w/ Asmo...Saldaea. Lanfear and Asmo thru Kadere, and the other 2 are obvious. The 2nd point is the wine. I know...been there done that, but not w/ this particular angle. Does it really matter if Asmo ever found the pantry? Not in my mind. The reader is told Asmo was going to get wine. This was clearly Asmo's goal. Let's keep this is the back of our minds as we move on.

2. Motive- This is perhaps the easiest of the 3 to explain. Let us examine Asmo's now famous last words. "You? No!" The first part immediately grabs the reader. It demonstrates Asmo's genuine surprise @ finding the suspect in Caemlyn. It is Asmo's recognition of the killer that is important. It is utterly unimportant whether the killing was premeditated or chance. Recognition is the motive. The killer had to whack Asmo before he had a chance to tell the DR they were there, for whatever reason they were there. We can debate the merits of who's motive is "better", but it seems to me that the more elaborate and creative the conspiracy theorists' explanation, the more it strains the intuitively obvious point. Enough on motive, let's continue on to ability.

3. Ability- It is almost a given that the OP was used in the murder of Asmo. Let's face it, nothing else fits the speed (the hanging No!) and the lack of a body so well. I think it's reasonably safe to assume that the method of execution was BF. It's given to us in the name of the book The Fires of Heaven. Take a moment to ponder the ramifications of that for a minute. Okay, ready for more. It is for that reason I believe the killer was Bashere. You may be asking yourself, how in the light does he arrive @ that conclusion? Does he think Bashere is a channeler? Not at all. Let me explain w/ a passage quoted from TFOH Ch. 56 p. 957 detailing the description of Bashere upon entering the DR's presence:

"Forgive my intrusion, he said "but there was no one to announce me. His clothes might be plain and even travel-worn, but he had what appeared to be an ivory rod capped with a golden wolf's head thrust behind his sword belt."

What is this ivory rod? A ter'angreal perhaps? As we already know certain ter' can be used by anyone. I submit this is the murder weapon. It would certainly explain why both a male/female channelers were unable to sense the massive release of the OP (BF) beyond they were distracted. Combine all the above w/ all the other circumstantial evidence displayed and you start to get a glowing neon sign pointing to Bashere. What other circumstantial evidence you may ask? How 'bout 1 of the 5 greatest generals of this age (well 4 now, not including Mat of course) rides from Saldaea to Andor, camping his 9000 heavy horse in Braem Woods, dragging a pottery jar of wine and 2 silver goblets w/ him to Camelyn, and oh BTW finds this palace see, and it's unguarded, so he decides to leisurely stroll about unescorted, though he brought 10 men w/ him, where he eventually finds the DR in the throne room and recounts perfectly the DR's every movement/accomplishment via intelligence assets far exceeding the WT's. Sure. (cue sarcasm) If you believe all that to be coincidence I got this bridge for sale. In conclusion, Bashere did it in the palace w/ the ivory rod. Thanks for your time.

Davian93: 2004-06-08

****What is this ivory rod? A ter'angreal perhaps?****

No...Its his Marshall's baton as the Marshall-General of Saldaea. There are absolutely no indications that it has any special powers.

**** It would certainly explain why both a male/female channelers were unable to sense the massive release of the OP (BF) beyond they were distracted.****

First of all, the release of OP didnt have to be massive. Asmo was shielded and couldnt channel very effectively. A small amount of power would be all that was necessary to take him out. And Lanfear knew about the shield being as she put it in place.

****How 'bout 1 of the 5 greatest generals of this age (well 4 now, not including Mat of course) rides from Saldaea to Andor, camping his 9000 heavy horse in Braem Woods, dragging a pottery jar of wine and 2 silver goblets w/ him to Camelyn****

First of all, he was chasing after Taim, not out for a leisurely ride with 9000 light cavalry. Secondly he went to Camelyn to ask for help from Andor plus permission to move troops onto Andoran soil to go after Taim. He was in the palace for days waiting for an audience with either Morgase (who no one knew was gone) or Gaebril/Rahvin for said purpose. The wine and goblets. First of all wine isnt all that heavy so it might be from his personal stores. More likely, he has been staying in the palace. Wine isnt all that hard to come by in the palace. He probably had some provided to him in his rooms kinda like a wetbar in a hotel room. So that proves absolutely nothing.

****recounts perfectly the DR's every movement/accomplishment via intelligence assets far exceeding the WT's.****

Rumor in Andor already has Rand doing everything Bashere knows about. He's a smart general who can speculate on whats going on. Also if Balwer with the Whitecloaks can put together rumors, any other smart individual is capable of the same. Again, not evidence of anything.

Naikavon: 2004-06-09

I apologize if I was unclear in my last paragraph. I attempted to establish, through sarcasm (hence the cue sarcasm in parenthesis) that Bashere was indeed present in the palace. That's a heckuva a lot more than we can say for certain on many of the other suspects. Of course we could always wish we were there... Besides if it's not Bashere the only other fitting canidate in my mind is Taim. I think he has enough hanging over his head already.

: 2004-07-09

over a period of time i have come and gone on this subject is always amusing everyone gets so riled up over it. that said here goes

Do i belive Grendal killed Asmo? not really sure though i think people dismiss the RJ interview simply to pasify their own theorie because no matter how much you argue it it can be read in to ways even if somone figured out the answer RJ would still not tell us that they were right directly because he wants people to figure it out on their own however i do agree that he could also be implying that the answer is wrong so i will give it that much however i find the agument that he "IS" saying that absolutly somthing that could be argue its all about sematics. now as for Gren doing it i am not really for sure but thats ok because all the theories have their holes. My one point i will make to Callandor about the bond breaking when they passed through the door way is this. She went through the doorway in Tear and the bond did not break. we had up to this point never seen anything of a bond being broken i would like to know how you surmized that they were still alive? and Mins comment to herself about her viewing is not until LOC so that is not a valid argument. at the time they went through i imeadiatly thought they were dead. Only later when min comments about having never been wrong in a viewing did i belive Moi and Lanfear could still be alive. as for my initial thought of who killed asmo i always had this thought that it was a Murder of Convienience. and to those that because asmo could still weave a small shield i say this.

If i am standing in front of you and you are looking me in the face I could easily slide a knife between your ribs and kill you before you knew what was happening but it still "COULD" happen and you cant deny that however there would have been the added problem of blood to clean up so basically we can say more then likly it was somone with the OP.

So whats all this leave us with? guesses and theories but no concrete evidence I have thus resolved to my new stance on the who killed Asmo front and is this

"Asmo is dead. But who killed him? Who cares."

Callandor: 2004-07-09

**My one point i will make to Callandor about the bond breaking when they passed through the door way is this. She went through the doorway in Tear and the bond did not break.**

Yeah, and was that doorway still intact? You know, the way back, not being trapped in another dimension?

**and Mins comment to herself about her viewing is not until LOC so that is not a valid argument.**

What?

Hmm... when was the last time Min saw Moiraine? In The Great Hunt, and before that The Eye of the World. Can we agree that this is before Moiraine's trip through the doorway in Cairhein? Good.

Min had a viewing of Moiraine at one of those times, and it had not come to pass yet. It is the one that "failed." Min's viewings never fail. She is always right on her viewings.

Guess what? It has to come to pass.

Korell: 2004-07-20

If the viewing had come to pass then why would Min state to herself that she had never had a viewing be wrong at this point in time? i would think that would be because the events in the viewing had not come to pass. we know that Min has never been wrong and probly never will be wrong with this in mind how can we possibly conclude that the event has already taken place? Unless you are saying mins viewing is wrong? or that RJ made a mistake by having Min think she had been wrong on a viewing. you also mention the last time she saw moi is back in TGH the thing is Min says herself that her viewings dont always come to pass right away. after all its been a while since she saw Logain with glory around him and he has not come to that point yet.

i will conciede the doorway though because perhaps it cut the bond like a closing gateway can cut a person. dont know why i didnt think of that must have been having a brain fart or somthin.

Callandor: 2004-07-20

**If the viewing had come to pass then why would Min state to herself that she had never had a viewing be wrong at this point in time? i would think that would be because the events in the viewing had not come to pass. we know that Min has never been wrong and probly never will be wrong with this in mind how can we possibly conclude that the event has already taken place? Unless you are saying mins viewing is wrong? or that RJ made a mistake by having Min think she had been wrong on a viewing. you also mention the last time she saw moi is back in TGH the thing is Min says herself that her viewings dont always come to pass right away. after all its been a while since she saw Logain with glory around him and he has not come to that point yet.**

Thank you, you just proved everything I told you in my previous post.

1. Min had a viewing of Moiraine.

2. It was sometime between TEotW and TGH that Min saw this viewing of Moiraine.

3. Min is never wrong (never).

4. Moiraine went through the doorway with Lanfear in TFOH, and hasn't been seen since; Min hasn't seen her since TGH.

5. Min has a viewing of Moiraine that is the only one of hers to fail.

Now you were trying to use these facts to say that Min isn't proof of Moiraine being alive, and giving light to Lanfear being alive. Well that's just plain wrong.

: 2004-07-21

The reason in the original post that i mentioned Mins viewing is i was trying to understand how somone could think that Lanfear and Moi were not dead. Mins viewing proves that Moi is not dead im not disputing that. but we dont know she thinks she had a wrong viewing until LOC. so you cannot use Mins viewing at the time when they go through the doorway to surmise that they are still alive. What i want to know is what made you think they were still alive?

Korell: 2004-07-23

I might have forgot to hit the submit button or somthin i dont know because i alreaady replied to this but here goes again.

I belive that Moi and Lanfear are still alive my original question was "Why" or "How" you came to the conclusion that they were alive at the time they went through the door way? The reason i brought up Mins viewing originally is because we do not hear her think she is wrong until LOC that is the point that i knew Moi and Lanfear must have been alive after they went through the doorway but there was no reason to belive they were still alive at the time that they actually went through the doorway that is the point i was trying to make.

what i meant by Mins viewing not being a valid argument was based on time frame not on proof or disproof.

Callandor: 2004-07-24

**What i want to know is what made you think they were still alive?**

Uhh, not one person who has entered the doorway has died.

There is another exit to both doorways.

No one meets up with other people in Finnland, so Moiraine couldn't have magically killed Lanfear off screen.

If anyone does not see the relationship developing between Moiraine and Thom, their blind and dumb.

Basically, I can't understand why people THINK she would be dead. The bond snapped. Yay! The doorway to another dimension collapsed. That might just be a reaction to it.

**TITLE: Shadow Rising

CHAPTER: 15 - Into the Doorway

"You! You were both in there. That is why . . . !" She made a vexed hiss. *"One of you would have been bad enough, but two ta'veren at once-you might have torn the connection entirely and been trapped there.* Wretched boys playing with things you do not know the danger of. Perrin! Is Perrin in there, too? Did he share your . . . exploit!"**

Change "ta'veren" with "active channelers", and you have exactly what happened between Moiraine and Lanfear. Tearing the connection, could easily be the same as severing the Warder bond.

And, I'm not using this as solid proof, but if you ever take a look at the previous WoT FAQs, Lanfear is always the top suspect. So it's not like it is a great leap at all to think, hey, one isn't dead, why the heck should the other?

Egwene's dream of Thom pulling Moiraine's blue jewel from a fire. Once again, if one's alive, why the heck assume the other is dead?

Moiraine knows her future husband better then Egwene, Elayne, or Nynaeve. She hasn't married before going into the doorway, why is she so sure? Min perhaps?

And even more about Thom, Min, and Moiraine:

**TITLE: Eye of the World

CHAPTER: 45 - What Follows in Shadow

Moiraine studied them as she ate. Finally she put her plate aside and patted her lips with a napkin. "I can tell you one cheerful thing. I do not think Thom Merrilin is dead."

Too important? Rand thought. How could Moiraine know . . . ? "Min? She saw something about Thom?"

"She saw a great deal," Moiraine said wryly. "About all of you. I wish I could understand half of what she saw, but even she does not. Old barriers fail. But whether what Min does is old or new, she sees true. Your fates are bound together. Thom Merrilin's, too."**

Gee, what exactly did Min see to make Moiraine so sure, and just happens to go along with the others? Just think....

And one final piece:

**TITLE: Shadow Rising

CHAPTER: 17 - Deceptions

"If you go with Elayne and Nynaeve, I [Moiraine] will tell you the names of those Red sisters when I see you next, as well as the name of the one who gave them their orders. They did not act on then own. *And I will see you again. You will survive Tarabon."***

Once again, so sure.

And it all adds up to simply to one thing: if Moiraine is so sure, so many dang things point to her surviving her encounter with Lanfear (not to mention her "small bubble of hope"), WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD YOU ASSUME LANFEAR DIED?!

charliec: 2004-07-24

** Mins viewing proves that Moi is not dead im not disputing that. but we dont know she thinks she had a wrong viewing until LOC. so you cannot use Mins viewing at the time when they go through the doorway to surmise that they are still alive. What i want to know is what made you think they were still alive? **

When I first read that I didn't assume they were dead, but I did think they'd be trapped in Finnland, and that for either to get out would be a future episode in the books...

Genghis: 2004-07-28

Can people ever channel in Finn land. if not lanfear couldn't have burned herself out. Either way if Lanfear escaped and was killed by moridin later how do we know how long she spent in Finn land and how would she have gotten out right near the door to where Asmo was? I think saying it was Graendal is much simpler.

Callandor: 2004-07-28

**Can people ever channel in Finn land. if not lanfear couldn't have burned herself out. Either way if Lanfear escaped and was killed by moridin later how do we know how long she spent in Finn land and how would she have gotten out right near the door to where Asmo was? I think saying it was Graendal is much simpler.**

1. Yes, you can channel in Finnland. Rand walks out of the doorway in Tear with his OP fire channeled sword and says that they "shied away from it" (fire to blind). So you can channel in Aelfinnland at least, and seems pretty solid that what is possible in Aelfinnland is refected in Eelfinnland.

2. How is Graendal simpler at all? The best motive anyone at all comes up with is "Well, she's a Forsaken, so she would of course kill him if she had the chance."

So would any Forsaken.

She has no reason at all to be in Caemlyn. Best reason people always bring up, "Well, she went to Illian after Sammael died, so why couldn't she have gone to Caemlyn after Rahvin died, found Asmodean, and took the opprotunity?"

Well, that only just happens to have a few major flaws in it.

A. Graendal went to Illian to erase her actions there so Rand wouldn't come after her. She had gone to Illian many times to meet with Sammael. How many times did she got to Caemlyn to see Rahvin? Once. No reason at all why she should worry over Rand getting some piece of an idea that she was there, when she was there once, over a month (or TWO!) ago!

B. She has no idea that Asmodean is partically shielded. To her knowledge she would be facing a full-strength male Forsaken level channeler, who could match her roughly. We have yet to see Forsaken go to these depths.

C. Graendal does not kill. She twists. Look at when Cyndane and Moghedien try to take her to Moridin. She uses Compulsion on them, instead of killing them. If she ran into Asmodean, why would she blast him out of the air first off, instead of gathering whatever information she could from him (you know, what has Rand been up to, what are his plans, what has he taught Rand, etc.), and THEN killed him, if she would've even done that?

D. Why would she go to Caemlyn after a major OP battle with two channelers who are stronger then her? Best reason, "Well, she went to Illian after Rand fought Sammael, so why wouldn't she go to Caemlyn?"

Rand fought and killed Sammael in Shadar Logoth, not Illian, and, once again, Graendal went there only out of pure necessity. Going to Caemlyn why? NO REASON!

charliec: 2004-07-29

** Can people ever channel in Finn land. if not lanfear couldn't have burned herself out. **

Yep, Rand does.

Birgitte: 2004-07-29

I don't see what all the fuss is about. Rhavin's trap killed Asmodean. Here's my proof:

TFOH 54: 916(paperback)

Asmodean was a twisted shape of char, recognizable only from the blackened harpcase still strapped to his back.

This is just after Rand arrives in Caemlyn and springs Rhavin's trap.

Callandor: 2004-07-30

**This is just after Rand arrives in Caemlyn and springs Rhavin's trap.**

...

Finish the book. Asmodean is brought back due to Rand's balefiring of Rahvin. He is then killed for real by an unknown person.

Birgitte: 2004-07-30

BTW... For those few who might have actually taken me seriously-

I was trying to add some levity to a debate that is never going to be resolved unless RJ decides that he is tired of watching us squirm. I'm not quite that dumb. At least, I don't think so....lol

Stilicho: 2004-08-30

Birgitte's joke made me think of a different angle: why was Asmo killed WHEN he was? The two reasons that spring to mind are: 1) his "rebirth" of sorts due to balefire that Asmo comments on; and 2) Taim's entry into Rand's circle (i.e. Asmo might see through something Taim is up to based on his AOL experience). There is no reason to think that Asmo could not have been killed before by whoever eventually did the deed. In fact, it's not clear to me whether the darkhounds in the Aiel waste were looking to kill Asmo, check on him, warn/frighten him, or just send him a message in addition to their other reasons for being there. So, what is significant about the timing of Asmo's death?

ranman38: 2004-08-31

Well, I haven't got all my facts together yet, but... I will preview what I am thinking about Asmo's death. I fully believe, as do many here, that Lanfear was responsible. Despite all the arguments against her, here is something I am working on. And it does speak to timing. Timing; something that everyone says rules out Lanfear. It is to close to the battle on the docks. Briefly, Asmo was thinking of Lanfear seconds before he dies. Lanfear is really po'd at Rand because he thwarted her plans, and she is doubly po's at Asmo, because he taught Rand how to do many things he does. So, into Finnland she goes, one of her wishes is to go back to where Asmo is, and she balefires his a$$, or somehow wishes him dead, and wants him to know it was her. Now I know about the Finn's hating evil and all, but they have a twisted view of things. At this time, I really don't have enough evidence to fight anyone off, but it is just a theory.

Jumai: 2004-09-16

This is much simpler than most of these theories... but the last three words of the POV are "death took him." which points at moridin rather directly (his name means death). He would have used the True Power which would explain no one sensing it, not even Avhiendha.

The one flaw I find is the RJ quote that it should have been apparent at the time of death. This could be taken to mean all the evidence was in place (but the character was not yet revealed), or that all the facts needed to solve the mystery were published at the time.

There's no reason Ish couldn't have been reincarnated as Moridin and spoken with Asmodean before his capture. There's certainly enough intervening space, and the Demandred POV at thakan'dar says there are usually about 50 people sitting around getting ready to be myrdraal blades, one of which could conceivably been an acceptable host.

Callandor: 2004-09-16

**This is much simpler than most of these theories... but the last three words of the POV are "death took him." which points at moridin rather directly (his name means death). He would have used the True Power which would explain no one sensing it, not even Avhiendha.**

RJ has said that the use of "death took him" is not a pun, as in the context you are trying to use it.

**There's no reason Ish couldn't have been reincarnated as Moridin and spoken with Asmodean before his capture.**

Quite a few actually, namely that no other events have Ishamael's mark on them until we see Moridin appear (well, a few chapters before). Kinda strange at that.

phreakfactor: 2004-11-16

Ok call me crazy, but the DO did it. All the evidance is in the books, and in the 10th book RJ makes it clear that the DO is out and running around. This would also explain the the "its was obvious". Obvious in the sence once you know who did it, yeah it does seem obvious. In the first chapter in the 6th book (for those that doubt, re read it with this in mind) the DO already knew Asmo is dead...how did he know that when no one else did? This would also explain the "you?" from Asmo just before he got whacked. Asmo was scard, and unsure it was who he really thought it was. The Do also has the power to kill him without anyone taking notice. The DO isn't free completely, but getting close, he is useing the half man's body. Remeber the respect he got in the pit of doom? Well thats the reason the DO has kept asmo's killer a secret, cuz its him. In the 10th book the half man shows the Keeper who he is after punishing the lippy forsaken. How dare she question him! kinda stance.... Now if this is all true, which I believe it is, then this is a huge shift in how the rest of teh story will unfold. The last battle began in the second book When Rand proclained his birthright.... think on that :)

Callandor: 2004-11-18

** Ok call me crazy, but the DO did it. All the evidance is in the books, and in the 10th book RJ makes it clear that the DO is out and running around.**

You're crazy. RJ has made it anything but clear whether Shaidar Haran is an avatar (ha!), or just an enhanced Myrddraal.

**In the first chapter in the 6th book (for those that doubt, re read it with this in mind) the DO already knew Asmo is dead...how did he know that when no one else did?**

Odds are, the killer reported it.

And anyway, your idea is pretty much impossible:

**10. Did the Dark One order Asmodean's death? If not, how does he know about it in the prologue of Lord of Chaos?

RJ: No, he didn't order Asmodean's death, but he knows a great deal about what goes on in the world, though it isn't complete knowledge.**

From the WoTmania interview found here:

http://wotmania.com/wotmessageboardsho

wmessage.asp?MessageID=101647

ranman38: 2005-02-10

I just love resurrecting this thread

Us "lanfearians" have stated our case numerous times in numerous ways. Here is a new twist I just thought of. Again, it is total supposition, but has some basis in what we have seen the 'finns do.

Lanfear in one of her wishes Says, "I want to go to the person who is responsible for me being here." Or, something to that effect.

See is trasnported near Rand (she thinks he is responsible) but Asmodean appears. He taught Rand the things he used at the docks. Therefore, in Finn logic, Asmodean was responsible for her being there.

Another wish. "I want to me the most powerful woman in the world!" Again the tricksey 'finns, make her more powerful than any woman in that world, at that time. Moiraine. Which as we know, is less powerful than Lanfear was.

What price did she pay? Not sure, but death was the result, transmigration, last chance, blah blah blah.

Think about it, it works.

(I also posted this on the message board, but it is somehow more..permanent..here.) :)

Barbarik: 2005-02-10

Well, I think Taim (whoever) is the muderer or at least a reason for it.Seems quite obvious to me for he appears soon after.

One other thing: I don't think Asmo's killed with balefire since his words hang in the air after his death. Even with a tiny thread of bf those words would've been ripped out of existence.

jason wolfbrother: 2005-02-11

actually the only other time when someone died and their words hung in the air was from balefire. Be'lal was killed by Moiraine by a blast of balefire and his words hung in the air after his death. So balefire is highly probable as the cause of Asmodean's death.

Aiel Finn: 2005-02-11

No, only the words to when he was removed are taken out. If he was starting to speak, then the words he got out would still be there, or would at least have a memeory. He never got a chance to finish what he was saying.

Barbarik: 2005-02-14

I just re-read the death of Be'lal and must admit that it's more complicated than I thought.

The death of Be'lal is written in Rands pov. So Rand has a memory of the "No!". But in case of Asmos death there is an objective viewer who experiences just what really exists in the pattern.

Well no proof for or against balefire.

Yaga Shura: 2005-02-16

The similarities between the deaths of Bel'al and Asmodean are too great for Asmodean to have been killed by anything other than balefire. This means it was not Slayer.

Also, unless Moiraine was stilled then healed again between entering Finnnland and Asmodean's death, it was not her. She would still have been bound by the three oaths, specifically not to use the OP as a weapon. Remember that in TDR she had to make Bel'al start to attack her before she could balefire his ass.

This only really leaves the Forsaken as obvious options, since nobody else seems to know balefire except Rand. I don't buy into the Lanfear camp, it just doesn't seem to fit as she would have wanted to cause more pain and suffering to Asmodean than just balefire. Also, the Robert Jordan interview that seems to confirm it was Graendal is really not doing anything of the sort. His stock answers are basically yes, no, or RAFO, and he doesn't give one of these. The only bit of the question he actually answers is to say "i don't know why people have a hard time figuring that out." If it was Graendael, his answer would have been different.

I'm not personally convinced about it having been any of the Forsaken, because they all have such a massive aversion to balefire. Doesn't it say somewhere, possibly a Moghedien POV that even they only use it at great need, and then only on direct orders.

Although it isn't obvious exactly, my money is on Aviendha as the killer. I don't know where she learned balefire, but the Wise Ones certainly have a number of secrets, and Aviendha is certainly the kind of person who would do that. Let me know what you think.

Aiel Finn: 2005-02-16

I just need to say again, Lan's bond switching DOES NOT mean that Morianne died or was severed. She says in TDR when they are at the inn (I beleive that it's the one where Perrin saves the Gaul) that she can pass the bond at any time. I think that if she knew she wouldn't get back right away, that she might have passed it.

Callandor: 2005-02-16

**She would still have been bound by the three oaths, specifically not to use the OP as a weapon. Remember that in TDR she had to make Bel'al start to attack her before she could balefire his ass.**

Moiraine could've killed Asmodean easily -- he's one of the darkest rooted people in the Shadow: the Forsaken. Any Aes Sedai can go ahead and kill a Forsaken, since it's justifiable.

Moiraine did not kill Asmodean, however, because she knew he was necessary for Rand's teaching (as she says flat out in her letter to Rand).

**Although it isn't obvious exactly, my money is on Aviendha as the killer. I don't know where she learned balefire, but the Wise Ones certainly have a number of secrets, and Aviendha is certainly the kind of person who would do that. Let me know what you think.**

1. No motive.

2. No information -- she didn't know who Natel really was.

3. No fear responce -- Asmodean paled at his killer. He was obviously scared quite badly by them before he died. Aviendha would hardly do this, especially since he was just trying to entertain her.

Yaga Shura: 2005-02-17

In response to Callandor's "Moiraine could've killed Asmodean easily -- he's one of the darkest rooted people in the Shadow: the Forsaken. Any Aes Sedai can go ahead and kill a Forsaken, since it's justifiable."

In The World of Robert Jordans Wheel of Time, on page 298, the third oath clearly states "never to use the one power as a weapon exceptagainst shadowspawn or in the last extreme defense of her own ife or that of her warder or another Aes Sedai." While the wording is different, the effect is identical to the oath that we see Moiraine swear on page 191 (chapter11) (paperback) of New Spring.

Moiraine could not have "killed Asmodean easily" because he is not Shadowspawn.

Also, her letter is hardly "flat out". "Perhaps it was the only way"(TFoH, Ch53) is rather more suggestive that she believes there was another way.

As for Aviendha having no motive, surely everyone has a motive for killing Asmodean. He is one of the Forsaken after all. Motive enough right there.

As for "No fear responce ," Asmodean was a coward and probably would be scared of anyone who was evidently about to attack him.

There also exists the possibility that Avi could work out, or at least guess, that something was odd about the man she knew as Jasin Nateal. he and Rand were hardly doing a good job of not acting suspicious in TFoH. Also, he remrks that several people have seen him dead, and that he basically knows why he isn't. If Avi heard those remarks, she might have jumped to the conclusion that Natael was immortal, which leads nicely to him being a Forsaken. And if Moiraine could figure it out, why not Aviendha?

Astra-al: 2005-02-21

In response to Yaga Shura, Moiraine could have killed Asmodean. Here is why:

(TDR Chp. 55) Moiraine had not stopped or slowed while he spoke. She was no more than thirty paces from him when he moved his hand, and she raised both of hers as well.

There was an instant of surprise on the Forsaken's face, and he had time to scream "No!" Then a bar of white fire hotter than the sun shot from the Aes Sedai's hands, a glaring rod that banished all shadows. Before it, Be'lal became a shape of shimmering motes, specks dancing in the light for less than a heartbeat, flecks consumed before his cry faded.

Moiraine already killed one of the Forsaken so of course she could have killed Asmodean.

Callandor: 2005-02-22

**As for Aviendha having no motive, surely everyone has a motive for killing Asmodean. He is one of the Forsaken after all. Motive enough right there.**

And where did Aviendha learn this particular piece of information? If she knew that he was a Forsaken, and not a gleeman as everyone was told, she'd be one of the top canidates.

But she is not, since she does not know that key piece of information.

**As for "No fear responce ," Asmodean was a coward and probably would be scared of anyone who was evidently about to attack him.**

He isn't pale in the raid of Caemlyn, when he's defending his life. He's a coward, yes, but he does have one person to fear above absolutely everyone else: Lanfear.

**There also exists the possibility that Avi could work out, or at least guess, that something was odd about the man she knew as Jasin Nateal. he and Rand were hardly doing a good job of not acting suspicious in TFoH. Also, he remrks that several people have seen him dead, and that he basically knows why he isn't. If Avi heard those remarks, she might have jumped to the conclusion that Natael was immortal, which leads nicely to him being a Forsaken. And if Moiraine could figure it out, why not Aviendha?**

You need to consider a lot more things in context instead of using reader's knowledge.

1. Aviendha knew that there was something "odd" about Asmodean. However, there are plenty of odd people in the world, and no one goes about killing them since they are just odd, unless you're in a totalitarian society, or Aviendha for no apparent reason joined the Whitecloaks.

2. Asmodean remarks about his immortality, in his head. So unless Aviendha had suddenly picked up telepathy, and then lost it later on, she did not know his thoughts at all on the matter, hence she could reason out nothing about his immortality.

3. Moiraine had a very sneaky trick -- she could eavesdrop on people without them noticing. Rand is a real moron for not warding his conversations, but I don't think he learns it until later on (he knows of it by CoT, and I thought earlier, but I am not totally sure about it as of TFOH -- if he does, he's making a very dumb mistake). Moiraine had been listening in to Rand and Asmodean's conversations, and that alone is undoubtably the source of how she knew about Asmodean.

**Moiraine could not have "killed Asmodean easily" because he is not Shadowspawn.**

Uh huh, and the Aes Sedai at the Cleansing could do absolutely nothing against the Forsaken they were facing? Aes Sedai cannot kill Black Ajah for what they are? Heck, Moiraine does that in New Spring. The Forsaken are the ultimate evil, second only to the Dark One, for Aes Sedai. They would kill them gladly if they could, or had no reason against it. Moiraine had a large reason against it -- Rand needed a teacher, Asmodean was already there. Hence, why she didn't kill him.

Yaga Shura: 2005-02-22

Astra-al,

I'm just wondering if you actually read what I wrote. Moiraine could not have killed Asmodean because she was not being attacked by him. She could kill Be'lal because he was attacking her, when "he moved his hand" he is about to channel, and the Forsaken don't mess around.

Vaetrus: 2005-02-23

I totally disagree. Slayer is just not the type of guy to go after Asmodean. Just think about the plot line first. Slayer is Perrin's foe, not Rand's. Chances are they won't meet. Like Padan Fain, he has only really been in areas where Rand is or was. Also, Asmodean would not have expected the person who killed him to do it. So it has got to be a totally unexpected person, who was his ally. I'm actually leaning towards Lanfear. Just because she would be the last person you would expect to do it. But, that's just hope and not factual. I don't know who did it, but Asmodean is not near the top of my list.

Saidar Haran: 2005-03-21

not even bothering to read this thread... ah well. I would have to disagree; while the "most obvious" would be lanfear, who said she would kill him, I doubt that she would use one of her wishes to do so even if she got any. She could get reincarnated after death.

I think it was Graendal; she is the only forsaken who is sure asmodean is dead. I know this argument can be used against me, but still: We see Cyndane's POV and if she had killed Asmodean, I think she would have thought about how she got her revenge at the one she thought caused her downfall (by teaching Rand too well.)

Asmodean: 2005-03-24

wow..I am surprised this one is still going on..haha. Well..I am happy to say I at least know officially who killed me..but since I am the victim..there is no reason that I shouldn't. Though I am sorry to state that I can not release the answer at this present time..at the request of a mutual friend. Though I can say some of u are correct in your theories..while others are completely off base. Cant tell u which ones are which..that would give it away. I can promise u all that u will know officially..by the end of the series..either robby will give the killer a POV or I'll tell ya when the series is done..you've waited this long..whats a little while longer?..haha. Besides..I enjoy watching the disputes as much as Bob does..haha. This is the only one I cant make a response to..I am at liberty to respond and comment on the other threads...and may do so in the near future. If the topic gets too off base or the drama gets out of hand..haha. Either way..keep reading and guessing...some of ya are on the right track as far as most of yur opinions...no one has been 100% accurate..I can tell u that much..a few people are close. You know who u are..if u are having any doubts..try thinking of the first thing to come to mind..I'm sure there is a reason for u to doubt yur theory..I do read all the theories..so keep em coming...they are enjoyable regardless of how off base some of them are..haha..anyway...hasta luego

JakOShadows: 2005-04-28

In my opinion, it could be Luc or any of the surviving Forsaken, but I don't think they knew enough about what was being planned or where Rand was to ever catch him purposefully. And they knew enough about him to get out before Asmodean walked in on whatever they were doing. I think Taim is the most convenient one becuase he just appeared in the book and had enough time inside the loop to figure out about Asmodean, but he wouldn't know about the immediate plans at the time. So he could have just gone there to spy on him and get caught by Asmodean. This is would be why Asmodean is surprised by him being there and why he had to kill him. And I also think it worked out neatly for him, becuase he could then be the only major male channelor influence on Rand. And this could also account for some of his shady dealings. I don't know what they are, but if your a male channeler most forsaken will know about you. And plus, I think the Forsaken have a better means of obtaining a valuable object or killing someone than doing it themselves. Most of the time, they don't want to reveal themselves to someone. Plus, if I were Asmodean, I wouldn't be that blindsided to see a forsaken there. The only other logical joice could be Luc, becuase it shows that they were aiming specifically for him or for something of great secrecy hidden in Andor. It just seems like too much went wrong for it to be planned by the forsaken.

So to make it simple I'll make a list of most likely candidates to least:

1) Taim

2) Luc

3) other forsaken alive

4) Lanfear or Moraine(it takes a while to escape from the Finn's)

Callandor: 2005-04-29

**I think Taim is the most convenient one becuase he just appeared in the book and had enough time inside the loop to figure out about Asmodean, but he wouldn't know about the immediate plans at the time.**

You'd have to prove that, not just say it. I myself believe Taim to be a quite high ranking Darkfriend/Dreadlord and trained by Ishamael and possibly Demandred, but him knowing Asmodean, and Asmodean knowing him, is still very far fetched even for me.

**I don't know what they are, but if your a male channeler most forsaken will know about you.**

Secluded farmers in the Two Rivers know of famous male channelers -- however they only know ~of~ them. Asmodean clearly recognized his killer, and was terrorfied of them.

The thing you'd have to prove is that Taim had met Asmodean before, and then that Asmodean would be afraid of him.

**And plus, I think the Forsaken have a better means of obtaining a valuable object or killing someone than doing it themselves.**

Cleansing of the taint? Plus, you're saying that the Forsaken would send someone to go kill a known powerful channeler. That's the major catch -- no one save Rand, Asmodean, and Lanfear knew of his reduction in strength. Everyone else as a canidate would have to be knowing that they were going to kill what they thought was one of the most powerful channelers in the world at the time.

**The only other logical joice could be Luc, becuase it shows that they were aiming specifically for him or for something of great secrecy hidden in Andor.**

Slayer is completely out of the question -- we had no idea of the extent of his abilities until Winter's Heart. And the only channelers we know he has killed were stilled or shielded (though he implies to have killed at least one more).

And there is the fact that Slayer maybe Slayer, but Asmodean was a channeler. A complete wall of Air to be woven, can be done faster than any strike from a physical weapon, and thanks to RJ we know for sure that they would be impentitrable by said object.

izzyabo: 2005-04-30

I believe Asmodean's killer is Rahvin. Remember Nyneave al'Meara seen him fade BEFORE he was hit with balefire. The theory goes that his physical form was destroyed by balefire but not his essence (spirit) which was completely subsumed into TEL. This explains time being reversed and Avienda and Mat being saved but allowing Rahvain to continue within TEL and then attack and dispose of Asmodean. Remember Rands unravelling within TEL and fading away.

Callandor: 2005-05-02

**This explains time being reversed and Avienda and Mat being saved but allowing Rahvain to continue within TEL and then attack and dispose of Asmodean. Remember Rands unravelling within TEL and fading away.**

2 things:

1. We know balefire is the ultimate death for anyone. The soul may not be destroyed forever, but it certainly is not anywhere but where souls await rebirth. If Rahvin were in Tel'aran'rhiod in such a state, it's entirely plausible the Dark One could do something -- yet he admits to being able to do nothing (make a case for black cords if you want).

2. Asmodean died in the Real World, not Tel'aran'rhiod. Rahvin is in a whole other world/dimension.

izzyabo: 2005-05-06

Interesting point Callandor, his would kill the theory except that it cannot be universally true. The heroes await their rebirth in TEL. If their souls/spirit can reside in TEL why can't Rahvins. If what you say is right about the DO then the DO would destroy the heroes before they were ever reborn. Seeing as he hasn't maybe he can't. The theory still stands.

izzyabo: 2005-05-06

Interesting point Callandor, this would kill the theory except that for a couple of points. The heroes await their rebirth in TEL. If their souls/spirit can reside in TEL why can't Rahvins. If what you say is right about the DO then the DO would be able to destroy the heroes before they were ever reborn. Seeing as he hasn't maybe he can't. The theory still stands.

You yourself linked spirit with a place awaiting rebirth. All I'm saying is that if you unravel yourself in TEL maybe you can exist as the heroes do and as the wolves do when they die. We have been told that to enter in the flesh means you will lose some part of yourselfand is considered evil. Desperate situations will demand desperate actions. Rahvin is still my bet as the killer.

Incidently is the DO can't influence TEL then he would assume that Rahvins thread was burnt out of the pattern like everybody else. It all makes sense to me.

Callandor: 2005-05-07

**Interesting point Callandor, this would kill the theory except that for a couple of points. The heroes await their rebirth in TEL. If their souls/spirit can reside in TEL why can't Rahvins. If what you say is right about the DO then the DO would be able to destroy the heroes before they were ever reborn. Seeing as he hasn't maybe he can't. The theory still stands.**

Well you attributing powers to the Dark One that he does not have, first off (like GLotD).

Second, there is a "normal" afterlife in the Wheel of Time, one seperate from the Heroes of the Horn (if you really desire, I will quote the interview, but dragonmount is being a pain at the moment).

**You yourself linked spirit with a place awaiting rebirth. All I'm saying is that if you unravel yourself in TEL maybe you can exist as the heroes do and as the wolves do when they die. We have been told that to enter in the flesh means you will lose some part of yourselfand is considered evil. Desperate situations will demand desperate actions. Rahvin is still my bet as the killer.**

Ok, balefire is instant death if you're hit by it. Do not pass go, do not collect $200, do not enjoy the life you were living.

Rahvin did not "unravel" himself in tel'aran'rhiod -- he was balefired out of existance, fully proven by the end result of Mat, Aviendha, Asmodean, and others coming back by Rahvin's actions being ~undone~ due to the balefire.

There's no way that anything happened to Rahvin, save that he was killed via balefire. Because of that, he is automatically off the list of suspects.

**Incidently is the DO can't influence TEL then he would assume that Rahvins thread was burnt out of the pattern like everybody else. It all makes sense to me.**

Don't know why it does.

JakOShadows: 2005-05-08

Izzyabo:

The only thing that is off with your theory is how much T'A'R is tied a whole lot to reality. And when someone is hit with balefore in reality, they don't fade and go to T'A'R as we have seen, or else all of the forsaken Rand killed would still be in T'A'R. And since Egwene and her friends don't ever see them that is highly unlikely. Rather, I see it as their soul and their body are destroyed if they are directly hit by balefire. Anyways, it just seems very unlikely that T'A'R behave the same as reality, but the same rules do not apply as far as balefire. There are a number of other things happening that could have caused the fading.

izzyabo: 2005-05-10

I am not saying that the fading is a result of balefire. What I am proposing is that in the same way that Rahvin tried to unravel Rand earlier in the battle (that is he felt himself fading as part of a trap set by Rahvin) he used the same process on himself in desperation as he knew he was being balefired. Remember that they were fighting in TEL at the time so the normal rules of what you can do are bent and depend not only on what you can do with the one power but also on your ability to control TEL. Why did Jordan tell us that Nyn. seen him fade just before he was balefired when fading in this way has never been associated with balefire before. This coupled with the previous Rand fade suggests that something different has happened this time. As for Egwene not seeing them, this is a special case I am not suggesting that everyone is balefired goes to TEL. I am saying that just before Rahvin was balefired something unusual happened. The supposition I suggest means that Rahvin can exist in TEL in a different form (such as the Heroes who wait in TEL for the turning of the wheel - and Egwene has never seen any of these and neither did anyone else except Nyn. and Mog.).

: 2005-05-10

Izzyabo:

Even if he transformed himself into an animal he could still be removed from the pattern by balefire. This is what happens when Rand balefires the darkhounds in FoH or LoC.(I forget which one). Anyway, the effects caused by the darkhounds were removed(the effects being the bite and poisoning on Mat), therefore balefire had the same effect on the animals too. So why would he try to morph himself. Rand would still try to chase him if he was an animal. And even then Nyneave would have gotten him, so what would he accomplish. I don't see why he faded, but he didn't have reason to be transforming himself.

jason wolfbrother: 2005-05-10

"I am not saying that the fading is a result of balefire. What I am proposing is that in the same way that Rahvin tried to unravel Rand earlier in the battle (that is he felt himself fading as part of a trap set by Rahvin) he used the same process on himself in desperation as he knew he was being balefired. Remember that they were fighting in TEL at the time so the normal rules of what you can do are bent and depend not only on what you can do with the one power but also on your ability to control TEL. Why did Jordan tell us that Nyn. seen him fade just before he was balefired when fading in this way has never been associated with balefire before. This coupled with the previous Rand fade suggests that something different has happened this time. As for Egwene not seeing them, this is a special case I am not suggesting that everyone is balefired goes to TEL. I am saying that just before Rahvin was balefired something unusual happened. The supposition I suggest means that Rahvin can exist in TEL in a different form (such as the Heroes who wait in TEL for the turning of the wheel - and Egwene has never seen any of these and neither did anyone else except Nyn. and Mog.)."

Where did you get this? Rahvin never faded. He ceased to exist. Here is the context. Sorry for the long quote but it is necessary to fully understand Rahvin's death.

Ch. 55 The Threads Burn

This hail was empty. She went to where it met the crossing corridor, peeked. And there he was. A tall black-clad man, large, with wings of white in his dark hair, peering through the curving slots of one of the stone window-screens at something below. There was sweat and effort on his face, but he seemed to be smiling. A handsome face, as handsome as Galad's, but she felt no quickening of her breath for this one.

Whatever he was staring at-Rand perhaps?-had his full attention, but Nynaeve gave him no chance to notice her. It might be Rand down there. She could not tell whether Rahvin was channeling or not. She filled the corridor around him with fire from wall to wall, floor to ceiling, pouring into it all of saidar she held, fire so hot the stone itself smoked. The heat made her flinch back.

Rahvin screamed in the middle of the flame-it was one flame-and staggered away from her, back to where the hallway became a columned walk. A heartbeat, less, while she still flinched, and he stood, inside the flame but surrounded by clear air. Every scrap of saidar she could channel was going into that inferno, but he held it at bay. She could see him through the fire; it gave everything a red cast, but she could see. Smoke rose from his charred coat. His face was a seared ruin, one eye milky white. But both eyes were malevolent as he turned them on her.

No emotion reached her along the a‘dam's leash, only leaden dullness. Nynaeve's stomach fluttered. Moghedien had given up. Given up because death was there for them.

Fire thrust through the carved window-screens above Rand, fingers of it filling every hole, dancing toward the colonnade. As it did, the struggle within him ceased abruptly. He was himself so suddenly it was almost a shock. He had been drawing desperately at saidin, trying to hold onto some of it. Now it rushed into him, an avalanche of fire and ice that made his knees buckle, made the Void tremble with pain that shaved at it like a lathe.

And Rahvin stumbled backwards out onto the colonnade, face turned to something inside. Rahvin wreathed in fire, yet somehow standing as though untouched. If untouched now, it had not been so before. Only the size of the figure, the impossibility of it being anyone else, told Rand it was him. The Forsaken was a figure of char and cracked red flesh that would have strained any Healer to mend. The agony of it must have been overwhelming. Except that Rahvin would be inside the Void within that burned remnant of a man, wrapped in emptiness where the body's pain was distant and saidin close at hand.

Saidin raged inside Rand, and he loosed it all. Not to Heal.

"Rahvin!" he screamed, and balefire flew from his hands, molten light thicker than a man, driven by all the Power he could draw.

It struck the Forsaken, and Rahvin ceased to exist. The Darkhounds in Rhuidean had become motes before they vanished, whatever kind of life they had had struggling to continue, or the Pattern struggling to maintain itself even for them. Before this, Rahvin simply...ceased."

Rahvin did not unravel himself. He was too busy protecting himself from further damage from Nynaeve's flame to even know that he was being balefired. He had his back to Rand. He simply ceased to exist the moment the balefire hit him. In any case there is no similarity to his death at Rand's hand and Asmodean's death at whomever killed him. Except that the suspected weapon was balefire. That is where any similarity dies.

Jalt Varyd: 2005-05-11

By the time we actually figure/find out who really killed Asmodean, this topic will probably be longer than TFoH!

While it might have been possible for him to be killed without channeling, it seems quite unlikely. He was obviously scared, and could certainly channel enough to protect himself from an ordinary attacker with air. The killer also had to be someone he recognized and feared. This narrows the field considerably.

In a way, Lanfear is the most obvious choice, since he thinks about her right before his death. However, I don't think she had the combination of motive and opportunity. We know that she was "held" by the 'finn, and that after that she was weaker. We don't know how long, but "held" implies more than a short time. She certainly wasn't able to escape immediately. While it is not impossible, it doesn't seem likely that she killed Asmodean as Cyndane. If she used a wish to get free, there are any number of more valuable targets. She could have asked for a working access key, or gone directly after Lews Therin. Asmodean would be a waste of a wish. Furthermore, I doubt the 'Finn could re-capture her after letting her out of their world as part of a wish. If they could affect the regular world at will, what's to stop them from stealing people at random? Perhaps they could, but it seems unlikely.

For that matter, it seems unlikely that ANYONE would be waiting to kill Asmodean. Even he didn't know where exactly he was going; how would anyone else predict his course? The most reasonable explanation is that he stumbled upon someone who killed him to avoid discovery, especially with Rand around to twist chance.

As for Rahvin, there is no way he could pass the "obvious" test. None of the suspects really fit it, but there was too much emphasis on his death for it to be immediately questioned. His actions were removed from the pattern for a quite significant length of time, so clearly the balefire hit him. There's no reason anyone would be sure that his soul had somehow escaped. Besides, if he were capable of influencing the world, wouldn't there have been other signs of his actions by now?

Linarien: 2005-05-16

ive been reading these theories all night, and im sorry if someone suggested this, but i didnt read EVERYTHING...but after asmodean was balefired and brought back, he kept saying imortality was gone. also when he touched the source he felt the taint. could it have been something as simple as that after dying once, he no longer had the D.O.'s protection and gift of imortality so maybe death just caught up with him. He would have been far beyond a natural life span and it would explain the lack of a body since there would be nothing left but dust. just a theory...

Callandor: 2005-05-16

**also when he touched the source he felt the taint. could it have been something as simple as that after dying once, he no longer had the D.O.'s protection and gift of imortality so maybe death just caught up with him.**

Nope. That had to do with the cord that Rand severed.

**TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 3 - Pale Shadows

"Then the-Dark One-will consume you alive. As for me, I intend to open my veins the hour I know he is free. If I get the chance. A quick death is better than what I'll find elsewhere." He tossed the blankets aside and sat staring glumly at nothing. ~"Better than going mad, certainly. I'm as subject to that as you, now. You broke the bonds that protected me."~ There was no bitterness in his voice; only hopelessness.**

Asmodean was beyond the possiblity of immortality, but no Forsaken has ever been truely immortal (as per RJ). They have a form of "immortality" in that they can be transmigrated -- but really all they have is the ~possiblity~ of becoming immortal if the Dark One breaks free.

Plus, Asmodean was clearly addressing someone when he died. So it wasn't simple age catching up to him.

jason wolfbrother: 2005-05-16

the problem with that is who is he talking to when he says "You? No!" if he simply died due to extreme old age (he was over 3000 years old ;)) then that quote makes no sense. Unless he opened a door, saw himself in the mirror covered in wrinkles.

Hehe A nice thought but not accurate imho

JakOShadows: 2005-05-17

Linarion, the only problem with that is that he talks like he actually saw someone. His final words were: "You!, no." That's not the exact punctuation or syntax, but you can still see what I'm talking about. Asmodean wouldn't refer to death as you. In your situation, he would have just turned to dust or disintegrate, however you want to think about. And there is also the fact that he was trapped in the prison and time doesn't touch him there, so it is as if he never aged over those 3,000 years. So in actuallity, he wouldn't be so old he would turn into dust. It seems more plausible that he was killed by a person.

Firseal: 2005-06-07

I think this is a bit flawed, in that Slayer is not even mentioned in the entirety of tFoH. Granted, if we had the data on his abilities and if he was in the book, I would think that he had some potential.

In addition, while the speed of Asmodean's killing implies that whomever he encountered had extranormal abilities, it also had a strong implication that he knew his killer.

Do we have any reason to believe that Asmodean would know Slayer? We know that not all of the Forsaken can call on him, and Asmodean lost touch with the Shadow before Moridin came about and started networking it into a cohesive organization. Give me reason to think Asmodean would know Slayer, and I'll rate the theory higher.

Ishamael: 2005-06-10

alright..not sure one exact quotes or exactly where they are located..but I am sure callandor will be more than willing to help me out on this one. Lanfear did it..and I am not gonna even bother repeating what was stated above...unless what I am about to say was brought up..but I don't remember reading it.

in the dream where Asmo was hanging on a tuft of grass..talking about the long fall that would come eventually..but until then..he was still alive. To me..the grass symbolizes Lanfear's last option to Asmo...the clif..the death that would come to him eventually...It is like..hey...I'm partially shielded..weak as hell..and she is gonna kill me anyway..but until then..I am still alive...You? No!...damn..now why did my grass gotta go and come loose when I am thinking bout the beotch?

Ruthie: 2005-06-24

This is Questions, not a theory and I'm new so bear with me. I also have issues regarding the whole Lord Luc/Slayer/Isam situation. Did Perrin succeed in killing Luc/Slayer in TAR? Are Luc and Isam the same somehow? I remember Luc trying to kill Nynaeve in TAR b/c she thought he was Lan in Edmund's Field. Is Isam related to Lan? I haven't read any theories about this but I would love to know what people think!! I don't have quotes, but I remember Morraine thinking to herself that she must keep the information about Isam (Lan's half brother?) possibly suriviving from Lan until she could be certain of how he would take it. I want to say Book 5, not sure though, sorry!! If this is true then I personally believe that Lan will play a bigger role in the Last Battle than some may think, since Isam appeared to be leading the Trollocs in Edmund's Field at least. Also, this may be clarified ~when~ Morriane returns. Let me know what you guys think!!

Anubis: 2005-06-25

Perrin did not succeed in killing slayer, he just wounded him. Luc and Isam are the same person, sort of. They are merged in some way, but can only be one person at a time. Either Isam or Luc. The entity that they create is called Slayer. Isam is Lans cousin I believe. They are deffinatly related.

JakOShadows: 2005-06-25

As far as slayer is concerned: Isam is Lan's brother who was killed in process of the fall of Malkier and Luc is a turned wolfbrother and if remember correctly tied to the Damodred family. I could be wrong on that last piece of information, so correct me if you know differently.

JakOShadows: 2005-06-25

Ishmael: Where in tFoH is that dream your talking about. I'm interested in reading about that. That could give some insight on the behind the scenes situation of his killing. The thin grass could just be that he had little hope too and no one trusted him enough to keep him alive much longer.

free will: 2005-06-26

Ruthie: Luc was Tigraine's brother, which makes him Rand's uncle. Luc was given a Fortelling (by the same person that Fortold Rand's birth) to go north, young man. Tigraine also got a fortelling to go east.

Isam is a cousin of Lan's, he was taken into the Blight as a baby as part of the civil war (Isam's mommy wanted baby Isam to be King instead of baby Lan) that destroyed Malkier. As far as I know Isam was the only baby raised in the Blight.

Callandor: 2005-06-27

**As far as slayer is concerned: Isam is Lan's brother who was killed in process of the fall of Malkier and Luc is a turned wolfbrother and if remember correctly tied to the Damodred family. I could be wrong on that last piece of information, so correct me if you know differently.**

To clarify:

1. No, RJ has stated that Slayer is not a wolfbrother.

2. Isam was/is Lan's cousin. Whether you want to call him now, is completely up to your definition of alive, and how Slayer came about (the last part being unknown).

3. Luc is Rand's uncle.

**As far as I know Isam was the only baby raised in the Blight.**

Which is questionable, since he has Borderland culture (specifically of Malkier), and culture is not inate but taught.

lessertaveren: 2005-06-29

This is my first time on this site and hence my first reply on a theory, so bear with me. I agree with much of the logic above in that Lanfear is held by the finns and thus unable to have killed Asmodean. I find the evidence for Graendal being the killer to be very strong, and find this argument very compelling. A few other ideas, though I don't know if these are original, as I don't have enough time to read the entirety of this Jordan-length theory we have going:

1) I don't believe that the gholam can be discounted. First, as we see in Ebou Dar, the gholam was created to kill channelers and manages to kill the few in the storeroom (where the Bowl of Winds is) very quickly, and he also disposes of Nalesean (sp?) very rapidly, by tearing his throat out. While if he killed Asmodean in such as fashion, there would undoubtedly be gurgling sounds in the air, in addition to his cry of "You? No!", I hold that Jordan's description of the way this sound lingered in the air is just poetic license and not necessarily related to balefire. Additionally, since I believe that Aginor only managed to make one male and one female gholam back in the War of Power, this gholam would certainly be recognizable to Asmodean, easily warranting his surprised, "You?"

2) If we presume for a moment that it was a channeler, and it was balefire, then in addition to Graendal I would like to propose another suspect, Moridin. While we haven't officially been introduced to him yet, there has been ample time for Ishamael to be transmigrated by FoH, and if he had saa in his eyes, he may have been recognized by Asmodean. While I realize this argument is weak, I must introduce one last thought: Jordan has argued that this should me obvious to us. Has no one else considered the strangeness of the language describing Asmodean's death? Jordan uses the phrase "...and his words still hung in the air as DEATH took him." (emphasis added). Later when we meet Moridin, we learn that he is a reborn Chosen, who has taken on a new name, which means DEATH.

Any thoughts?

Callandor: 2005-06-30

**1) I don't believe that the gholam can be discounted.**

It can. We simply did not know of their existance at the time Asmodean was killed.

**While if he killed Asmodean in such as fashion, there would undoubtedly be gurgling sounds in the air, in addition to his cry of "You? No!", I hold that Jordan's description of the way this sound lingered in the air is just poetic license and not necessarily related to balefire.**

The similarities are too striking to discount.

**Additionally, since I believe that Aginor only managed to make one male and one female gholam back in the War of Power, this gholam would certainly be recognizable to Asmodean, easily warranting his surprised, "You?"**

There were 6 made, 3 male, 3 female. Plus, since Asmodean would know of what they are, why on earth would he address them as "You?" instead of "It?"

**Has no one else considered the strangeness of the language describing Asmodean's death? Jordan uses the phrase "...and his words still hung in the air as DEATH took him." (emphasis added). Later when we meet Moridin, we learn that he is a reborn Chosen, who has taken on a new name, which means DEATH.**

Yes, people have speculated all over it -- RJ has confirmed emphatically that death taking Asmodean was not a pun on Moridin.

IshaSamMoridin: 2005-06-30

***While if he killed Asmodean in such as fashion, there would undoubtedly be gurgling sounds in the air, in addition to his cry of "You? No!", I hold that Jordan's description of the way this sound lingered in the air is just poetic license and not necessarily related to balefire.**

The similarities are too striking to discount.***

Callandor, do you not think that Rand would feel anyone weaving enough of Saidin to make Balefire, or Aviendha feel the same of Saidar?

Callandor: 2005-07-01

**Callandor, do you not think that Rand would feel anyone weaving enough of Saidin to make Balefire, or Aviendha feel the same of Saidar?**

1. We do not know how close Asmodean was to either of them when he died.

2. Sensing a male channeler is much more difficult than sensing a female channeler.

3. Even with a female channeler, it would have to be an incredible amount of One Power used to be trigger someone who was not originally sensing for it.

4. It doesn't take much more effect of balefire than what Moiraine used on Be'lal to kill Asmodean with the same effects, and to completely remove the body.

My answer: no, neither would feel it, because they were not looking for it originally nor do I think it would be powerful enough to overcome whatever distance away Asmodean was from the two.

ranman38: 2005-07-01

A little balefire goes a looong way. I am sure Lanfear would know that, and would be able to attenuate the balefire to the amount necessary to destroy her hated nemesis.

Dumai Wells: 2005-07-01

Callandor- You wrote this back in 03'

**You said the Lanfear was held by the Finns and I agree, but she couldve easily used one of her wishes to leave Finnland and kill Asmodean. The Finn then couldve easily taken Lanfear back because one of her wishes was completed, hence how the killer got out. So in my mind Lanfear cant be ruled out and is the suspect, not Graendal. And if you are doubtful that Lanfear would waste a wish to kill Asmo, think that Rand had just be dueling with her, she was flipped out nuts, and Moiraine pushed her through the Ter angreal doorway. Now Landfear knew that Asmo was a bad teacher, hence the safest for Rands teacher, but Rand shouldve been easy pickins in Lanfears logic, but he held his ground. Now come on, anyone would take that as a MAJOR slap in the face, and Lanfear isnt one to be slapped.**

I am assuming that you believe Lanfear to be a strong candidate for Asmo's murder. I have a question for you though. First of all why would lanfear waste a wish on going back to kill Asmo when she could wish to go back and kill rand? When she found out about avienda she tried to kill rand not asmodean. and the biggest issue is that she is the one who helped trap asmodean for rand to teach him, now all of a sudden she is going to go back and kill him because he did a good job? She did not trap him because he was a bad teacher, i mean he might have been a bad teacher but she trapped him because she knew he was the only one that would go for it. Demandred or Sammael would kill Rand in a second. She even said this once. the only way i can see lanfear killing asmo is that she wished to kill rand and the finns said they cant allow it because he is the dragon reborn so maybe she settled for asmo but still that is a stretch and rj doesnt write like that.

Callandor: 2005-07-02

**First of all why would lanfear waste a wish on going back to kill Asmo when she could wish to go back and kill rand?**

That's the one everyone always asks and it's a simple one: she would wish to kill Rand, not Asmodean.

As I said, all her wish could be was to leave Finnland, but worded strange like "I wish to visit my friend in Caemlyn, but I don't want to startle him." This person obviously being Rand, and Lanfear very intent on killing him. The Eelfinn, simply do what they do best: twist it. Add in a little bit of ta'vereness from Rand, and you have Lanfear being transported to an out of the way area (so as not to "startle" her "friend"), right when Asmodean happened to enter in -- then it's a simple matter of Asmodean is Rand's teacher --> Rand slighted Lanfear --> Lanfear = pissed --> Asmodean easily can take a nice big fall as well as Rand --> Asmodean balefired to kingdom-come.

Once this is done, the Eelfinn return her to their world for the rest of their wishes because she has technically visited a "friend" (though you could argue she gave him a heck of a startle ;)).

This all really depends on whether a person asking to see something outside of the Eelfinn dimension will be granted before the other wishes, or after the wishes when the person leave (think of a treasure explorer seeking treasure as a parallel situation). So far, that is quite unanswered (and will be my first question to RJ if I can ever meet the dang man! :)), so it is still a possibility.

**and the biggest issue is that she is the one who helped trap asmodean for rand to teach him, now all of a sudden she is going to go back and kill him because he did a good job?**

Yeah. Asmodean states that very simply:

**TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 3 - Pale Shadows

Rand cut him off. "You are not teaching me very well." "As well as may be expected, under the circumstances. You can grasp saidin every time you try, now, and tell one flow from another. You can shield yourself, and the Power does what you want it to." He stopped playing and frowned, not looking at Rand. "Do you think Lanfear really intended me to teach you everything? If she had wanted that, she would have contrived to stay close so she could link us. She wants you to live, Lews Therin, but this time she means to be stronger than you."**

Lanfear wanted Rand strong enough to take care of the other Forsaken -- but not strong enough to challange her or overcome her. Rand obviously can do one or the other or both. Asmodean did too well in training, and Rand has a few add-ins with Lews Therin -- motive for Lanfear big time.

JakOShadows: 2005-07-03

Let me just make a list here and give my thoughts

Gholam- it is possible but not likely, there would be more of a trace left behind

Greandal- possible, considering the fact that we know she is in cahoots with Rahvin and in another theory it is proposed she even turned against him, hence she would try and take advantage of the situation in any case(stepping in on Asmodean would have to be an accident in this scenario)

Lanfear- the finns make it very unlikely, but still possible if she made a deal with the finns(again Asmodean could have been an unplanned event)

Moridin- we haven't been introduced to him and RJ said it would be obvious

Hence, I believe Greandal is our best candidate so far, but any statement is on shaky ground considering how little evidence there is.

Richard: 2005-07-03

Has anybody realised that they did not need to use balefire? or even to channel? To make the boddy dissapear they need only to take it to the word of dreams, and that only a handful can do. (well, that is all the forsaken and slayer). I know slayer does not need to channel to get to dream world, so he is a strong suspect. Of the forsakens, who is a strong dreamer? who does not need to channel to access the world of dreams in the flesh? I am not actually sure but I think Grandeal, Demandred, Lanfear and Ishmael have been linked to being particularly strong in the dream world, but who... I think is was Demandred, when he realised Amodean was teaching Rand, he is always been too jealouse of LTT an could not risked Rand being helped to "remember" as LTT. Waht do you think? (about Asmodean being killed and pulled into dream world at least)

Callandor: 2005-07-03

** Has anybody realised that they did not need to use balefire? or even to channel? To make the boddy dissapear they need only to take it to the word of dreams, and that only a handful can do. (well, that is all the forsaken and slayer).**

Balefire is the strongest evidence toward method of death because his voice hung after he already died extremely similar to the way Be'lal was balefired (only difference being a very small tweaking of the wording).

To enter into the World of Dreams in the flesh, only Slayer can do that without channeling -- everyone else needs to make a gateway into tel'aran'rhiod.

**I am not actually sure but I think Grandeal, Demandred, Lanfear and Ishmael have been linked to being particularly strong in the dream world, but who... I think is was Demandred, when he realised Amodean was teaching Rand, he is always been too jealouse of LTT an could not risked Rand being helped to "remember" as LTT.**

Demandred is not a Dreamer as far as we know, because he enters into tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh via a gateway in Lord of Chaos. Furthermore, he is written off as a suspect because he does not know that Asmodean was dead when he reported it to the Dark One in the Prologue of Lord of Chaos.

As for Slayer, he can only be counted as a "strong" canidate now, not at the time of The Fires of Heaven, because we only recently became aware of the extent of his abilities in Winter's Heart -- he's far from obvious.

Besides that, his method of murder is brutal, and physical -- IE: big mess, and not fast enough when Asmodean can weave a simple wall of Air to protect himself completely.

therobotbadger: 2005-07-22

This is only a small addition to the pool of ideas, but one I hope will spur more discussion. I've seen a lot of posters express doubt that Lanfear would choose to kill Asmodean over Rand. Well, how do we know she really *chose* to kill either of them? We have no direct evidence that I know of showing that Lanfear even knew anything about the 'finn or what the doorway was (circumstancially, I think if she did know she'd have been more careful around the door and not been so susceptible to being tackled into it - but I digress). If she knows nothing of the foxes, how does she know they grant wishes? She may have merely been thinking aloud, much as Mat seemed to be in his journey through that particular door, and happened to say "I want to kill Asmodean," and not "I want to kill Lews Therin [or Rand]."

It's possible that she wished to kill Asmodean purely by accident, the same way that Mat wished for everything he got.

I know this isn't entirely fleshed out or anything, but the fact that Rand would be Lanfear's priority number one doesn't mean she didn't kill Asmodean. On the other hand, it doesn't mean she did, either...

ike44: 2005-07-23

"Re: Asmodeans killer is Slayer

I've got a question that I haven't read yet in any theory. How does the fact that we now know that Cyndane is Lanfear change the belief that she killed Asmodean? If she came back from Finnland changed then how would Asmodean recognize her. None of the other forsaken recognized her when she was first introduced.

I still believe that Lanfear killed him, it just makes the most sense, but this is a new wrinkle I think will have to be explained

Brainchz, 2003-01-07"

In response to Brainchz:

Asmodean could have recognized Lanfear in the same way Rand was recognized as Lews Therin in the eye of the world. They recognized his soul or however it was done. It may be a gift that certain people get, kind of like foretelling or the ability to make cuendillar. I don't relly know who killed Asmodean but that would explain your wrinkle about Lanfear. And yes I know, I am a couple years late in a response to that.

Callandor: 2005-07-24

**If she came back from Finnland changed then how would Asmodean recognize her. None of the other forsaken recognized her when she was first introduced.**

There are two major views on why Lanfear is now Cyndane:

1. Lanfear died and was transmigrated.

2. Lanfear was altered by the Finn at some point in her life (whether before or after falling into the doorway is opinion).

All this is moot really. We do not know when Lanfear became Cyndane. We know she was at least alive for a little while in Finnland (enough to be held by them), and we also know that no one so far has entered either Finn dimensions without getting their questions or wishes.

So where's the gap here? Lanfear went through, got three wishes, and was then changed. The idea is that she was still looking like Lanfear when she killed him, and was changed later on (whatever belief you follow about the change can be accomodated).

JakOShadows: 2005-07-25

I do think its possible that Lanfear did it, but until we see what happens in the future books, there will be no way to prove what happened in the Lanfear/Cyndane transmigration process. She probably would have made some wishes, but we don't know whether she knew what that door was used for or not. If the theory that she is artificially enhanced is to be believed(which is still not proven in my mind), then she would know what was going on. But if not, it would be by accident. And then there's the deal about going through the second time. And I would also like to think she would avoid that spot knowing what it is and what she's about to do. So in my mind there are too many variables for any solid statements to be made on what's happening.

Jahar Narishma: 2005-07-26

I should probably just turn this post into a theory, but I'm actually kinda afraid of writing yet another theory on Asmodean's killer.

Anyways, I think that Asmodean's killer is a MacGuffin. For those of you unfamiliar with a MacGuffin, it's a theatre/screenwriting term for a device which has no meaning or purpose aside from advancing a particular point of the plot. A famous MacGuffin is the briefcase in Pulp Fiction, where what the briefcase contains is immaterial, it merely exists as a plot device.

It comes from an old joke about two men on a train, one of whom has a huge suitcase. The second man asks the first what the suitcase contains, and he replies that it's a MacGuffin. The second man asks what a MacGuffin is, and the first replies "It's a device for hunting tigers in Scotland." "But there are no tigers in Scotland," replies his companion. "Yes, exactly," the first man says.

I think that Asmodean's killer is a MacGuffin. Asmodean needed to die off as a plot point. Rand needed to be on his own at this point, either because of the introduction of Taim or because Rand would be kidnapped in the next book. For whatever reason, Asmodean needed to die, so RJ had someone kill him. Who did it is immaterial. In fact, Jordan has commented that he will leave some threads hanging at the end of the series, and I can't help but think that this will be one of them, just to irritate some people.

Jordan's comment that it should be blatantly obvious even to a casual reader of the series was probably designed specifically to irritate the kind of people who have to know everything.

It's a MacGuffin. It doesn't matter who killed him, he just needed to die somehow.

JakOShadows: 2005-08-06

That may be true, and since it is so hard to figure out it might seem so. But RJ has said that someone has figured out who killed him, so I will still be curious and on the lookout for who killed Asmodean. I would like to think he didn't just do it to get rid of him, that doesn't seem to be his style and that's what I like about reading his books.

William Seeker: 2005-08-21

The only person I can think of that would make Asmodean act that surprised is someone he thought was dead. Like Ishy.

Callandor: 2005-08-23

**The only person I can think of that would make Asmodean act that surprised is someone he thought was dead. Like Ishy.**

Or someone who was supposedly dead very recently, and had reason to kill him, and he dreamed very unpleasant things about -- like Lanfear.

Balinor: 2005-08-24

It's possible that Asmodean's killer could be Slayer, but I think the odds are against it. Asmodean's killer was obviously someone he recognized, that much is clear from his response before he dies. We have no evidence that Asmodean knew Slayer. We have no evidence that Slayer is the "hired gun" for ALL of the Forsaken. Most likely, Slayer works for Ishydin, who would have had the most contact with him over the years. In fact, I don't think any of the Forsaken's POV's ever even mention Slayer. No, I think Asmodean's killer was probably one of the Forsaken, and most likely Graendal.

JakOShadows: 2005-08-24

I just found another quote here that might bring some new light to the situation.

tFoH, Ch 34 a silver arrow, pg 550

"He will concentrate on you," ... "If need be, on close to him will die, plainly at your order. He will come for you. And while he is fixed on you alone, the three of us, linked, will take him. ..."

Maybe when the plot with Greandal, Lanfear and Sammuel was messed up, they decided to try and refocus Rand on Sammuel to continue the plan. They knew Asmodean was his teacher, so they thought it would be a good target to make him think Sammuel was still afterhim. And the only two people alive at the time to execute it would be Greandal or Sammuel. And even if it wasn't to execute that plan, I believe they might have planned something else once they realized what happened. Now that I think about, the planned was messed up before Rand killed Rahvin, so maybe they went for a back up plan and it involved killing Asmodean because he was Rand's teacher. Not necessarily revenge by Lanfear, but Sammuel or Greandal because he didn't know that they knew so much about him. And it does seem like something either one of them would do.

Anubis: 2005-08-24

Fools. Idiots. Cant you see the truth? It is obvious to even the most casual observer...

Bela did it.

Callandor: 2005-08-25

**It's possible that Asmodean's killer could be Slayer, but I think the odds are against it.**

Slayer is a very good assassain, but he's practically fishbait for channelers. Even a weak channeler like Asmodean, with the One Power is infinitely faster than Slayer could ever be. A simple wall of Air, and Slayer can't get to him.

**They knew Asmodean was his teacher, so they thought it would be a good target to make him think Sammuel was still afterhim.**

But it doesn't mesh with Moghedien saying that Ravhin, Lanfear, Graendal, and Sammael were still working to draw Rand to Illian the morning of his attack -- they weren't planning on Rand going to Caemlyn.

**And even if it wasn't to execute that plan, I believe they might have planned something else once they realized what happened.**

How long would that take, and why would they immediately put it together and head off to Caemlyn of all places? If they put it together, they would've known Rand was in Caemlyn, and was battling a Forsaken or just got done killing on, or just got killed by one. What Forsaken would walk into that? People love to throw in that Graendal went to Illian when Sammael was killed, and Rand was there, but the only reason was because she feared that Rand would seek her out next due to whatever links to her that were in Illian. Her going to Caemlyn, is in no way similar to that -- it would be pure choice for profit in anyone's rationale, or pure stupidity.

Ozymandias: 2005-08-25

JakOShadows, I'm pretty convinced that that particular quote refers to Mat. I mean, Melindhra tries to kill him in an incredibly conspicuous manner... someone going for annonymity doesnt carry around a dagger with the emblem of his/her master on it. The only thing was... it backfired. She didn't kill him.

ranman38: 2005-08-25

Ten bucks says we find out in Book 11, and a 20 bucks says it is......lanfear lanfear lanfear LANFEAR !!!!!!!

Callandor: 2005-08-26

**Ten bucks says we find out in Book 11, and a 20 bucks says it is......lanfear lanfear lanfear LANFEAR !!!!!!!**

Since RJ has said that someone has mailed him the correct answer to who killed Asmodean, using the correct clues and hints, he has said that he will not be putting any more clues into the remaining Knife of Dreams and book 12.

That being said, it maybe that this means that RJ will finally give a POV of a character admitting by thought that they killed Asmodean and solve it completely -- but I don't think that would happen until book 12 if it ever did (he dragged the debate on long enough, he would drag it on till the last book).

~That~ being said, yes it would say Lanfear did it :P

JakOShadows: 2005-08-26

Callandor: When I meant that the plan was messed up, I meant that Lanfear went after Rand on her own and that Mat was not killed by Melindra. So if that was the case, then they would have to time to make another plan. What I meant to convey and I did a bad job of it now that I reread it, is that once they realized that Mat had not been killed they decided to choose another target that would strike just as close to home in their mind. And it could be possible that Rand killing Rahvin had nothing to do with anything that happened at all. She could have made a gatewayt there without knowing Rahvin and/or Lanfear was dead, to kill Asmodean to supposedly execute the plan. And since Rahvin and Lanfear had been caught, she would later realize that the plan isn't working too well anyway. But at the moment she didn't know the full sequence of events.

CyberFade: 2005-08-26

Second on the MacGuffin, Jordan had to lose Asmo or he wouldn't have any reason to keep Rand in the dark on so many things since LoC, among other reasons. Even if Slayer did it, that falls under means (Slayer's contracter would then be the killer and we also don't know yet how well Slayer can pinpoint someone in the real world--i.e. he missed Rand and Min by at least a few hours). The ones who can contract Slayer are DO and Forsaken I think--he mentions that his services have been begged by others though.

So going over ground covered many times here and elsewhere...those that possess the means to identify and kill Asmo are the remaining Forsaken (none returned yet as far as we know) plus anyone that can beg a Slayer hit.

Lanfear has the most (possibly only) convincing motive: killing Asmo hides the mess she's made, especially since Asmo heard her tell Rand that she would challenge the DO with him and the Choedan Kal. There's just the problem of what happened in *FinnLand (I really doubt she was given wishes...then the Eelfinn need to not have a problem with things concerning the Shadow as the Aelfinn do: Lanfear is a Forsaken, anything concerning herself touches the shadow).

Sammy specifically says to Graendal that he'll kill Asmo himself when he sees him in LoC. (I don't recall a specific PoV denial from Sammy about Asmo's death, and there wouldn't be any reason for Graendal to be so circumspect in her thoughts when the issue came up.) From other PoVs: Dem didn't know, Semi didn't know. Moggy getting collared.

On Bashere, I think the segment with him and Rand in the throne room and Asmo's death is close enough to simultaneous to discount him. Maybe Deira did it ;)

JakOShadows: 2005-09-03

I just reread the end of FoH, and there were a few things that struck me as funny when Bashere met Rand for the first time. First of all, he came in without announcement and didn't send a messenger first or anysuch thing. And he did know from rumors that Rand was there. And then when he started talking to Rand he started poking a prodding for pieces of strategy or plan. And then he asks for Rand's permission to go after Taim. And it just struck that that's a funny way to go about getting request like that, considering that he would like to go after Taim. What I would do is ask him first, and then go towards the prodding. To me the fact that he had the wine and approached the conversation with Rand the way he did, leads me to believe he may have been guided somehow. Possibly from someone hiding in the wine cupboard, which Asmo stumbled into and caught someone unaware. I know Callandor going to chew me to pieces if even name a name, so I won't go there since I can't really shed new light on who it could possibly be anyways. I just wanted to point out that observation I made about Bashere. I do hope that RJ gives us some more evidence on who it was because it does drive crazy. I know some of you feel the same way.

rltomkinson: 2005-10-18

I always thought that Shaidar Haran was a good choice for Asmo's killer. He can travel anywhere he wants as long as there is a shadow, and Asmo's own activities provide a motive. The only problem I see is that I can't recall if Asmo was at any of the meetings at Shayol Ghul after the appearance of Shaidar Haran (who now seems to have disappeared from the plot). If Asmo recognized Shaidar Haran, then he would probably have had the response that he showed to his killer. But, if not, a mere fade would probably not provoke that response. I also see no evidence that Asmo was killed then and there. He easily could have been dragged back to Shayol Ghul, or somewhere else, and then killed.

Callandor: 2005-10-19

**I also see no evidence that Asmo was killed then and there. He easily could have been dragged back to Shayol Ghul, or somewhere else, and then killed.**

He died in Caemlyn -- hence his words hanging when death took him.

Also, Shaidar Haran was hardly known before The Fires of Heaven -- we only recieved confirmation it was him in The Dragon Reborn and earlier books this year, and he wasn't even at the state he is in as of Lord of Chaos.

Bayle: 2005-11-11

Wow this is a long thread of discussion... but one quick point, I don't think Lanfear did it, nor do I think it would have been "obvious". Here is my reasoning, and Callandor, please correct me if I am wrong:

a. If lanfear is captured by the Finns, we don't know, at least not to the point of it being "obvious" that she is given any wishes, whatsoever. If she's a prisoner, and being held, why would they give her wishes? Also being a Forsaken, they probably wouldn't like her too much, as things relating to the shadow are not liked by the finns much. So I don't think that is a possibility.

b. It couldn't be her "reborn" already because Asmo wouldn't recognize her right off.

That said, I don't think there is any "solid" proof of it being Graendal either. No motive, no proof she was there, or would want to be there, just "knowing" he's dead doesn't really say much, that's a rather easy conclusion to leap to when any Forsaken is missing for an extended period of time.

Personally, I think it was someone like one of the darkfriends who came with Asmo/Lanfear into the waste... or one of the "good guys" that Asmo would recognize. Sure the death would need to be "fast" but I think a manual death could have been done and cleaned up fast enough.

Also, couldn't be Ishy, even if he WERE reborn, because Asmo wouldn't recognize him as Moridin anyway. I considered Dashiva, being Aginor, that is certainly a possibility, but the surprise in Asmo's voice doesn't lead me to that conclusion, plus Rand would have felt it (unless it was TP use, which is doubtful, since it wasn't introduced to us).

And oh yes, definitely NOT slayer, just to stick to this thread's topic. Slayer isn't even a player nor a factor. Sure he can step in and out of the dream, but Asmo was killed right there, not brought into the dream and killed. Anyway, I am reading the series for like the 6th time and I still don't have this figured out, but I am closing in...

Callandor: 2005-11-11

**a. If lanfear is captured by the Finns, we don't know, at least not to the point of it being "obvious" that she is given any wishes, whatsoever. If she's a prisoner, and being held, why would they give her wishes? Also being a Forsaken, they probably wouldn't like her too much, as things relating to the shadow are not liked by the finns much. So I don't think that is a possibility.**

1. We don't know of one single person who has been to either the Aelfinn dimension or the Eelfinn dimension without getting wishes or questions answered.

2. Questions relating to the Shadow have dire consequences. If Rand can ask about how to win the Last Battle (which if that doesn't deal with the Shadow not much else will), Lanfear could get wishes.

3. It could easily be that she got wishes, and then was held.

**b. It couldn't be her "reborn" already because Asmo wouldn't recognize her right off.**

Very good, now put the two and two together. Lanfear wasn't Cyndane at that point.

**Personally, I think it was someone like one of the darkfriends who came with Asmo/Lanfear into the waste... or one of the "good guys" that Asmo would recognize. Sure the death would need to be "fast" but I think a manual death could have been done and cleaned up fast enough.**

Asmodean saw, recognized, and feared his killer. A simple Darkfriend or one of the good guys doesn't fulfill that. He had an extreme fear reaction to his killer.

Not to mention the effort that Rand used to stop a knife being thrown at him was easily within Asmodean's capabilities. A simple wall of Air against a non-channeler is a pretty easy defense.

** I considered Dashiva, being Aginor, that is certainly a possibility, but the surprise in Asmo's voice doesn't lead me to that conclusion, plus Rand would have felt it (unless it was TP use, which is doubtful, since it wasn't introduced to us).**

Osan'gar and Aran'gar were brought back after Asmodean's death.

Bayle: 2005-11-14

Agreed, we don't KNOW of anyone who has not gotten wishes like Mat did, but for that matter, we don't know of anyone PERIOD other than Mat who has gone through that doorway. At least not as a first hand account.

Also, Rand did ask a question relating to the dark one, about the last battle. And either because of that, or multiple ta'veren being there at the same time, it ROCKED the joint. Forcing him to nearly fight his way out... So if rand gets that reaction from merely touching the dark one in his question, imagine what might happen to one of the forsaken?

Since we don't know how they would react, or whether or not a darkfriend would even GET a question or a wish and since we don't have any other experience with anyone other than Mat getting wishes at all, I don't think we can logically presume Lanfear got wishes (or the inverse).

My whole point being is that Lanfear fails the "obvious to the casual observer" test that is one of the crazy scruples surrounding this debate.

I have heard some amazing Slayer theories over the weekend, so I am somewhat re-considering my decision on it NOT being slayer, but... that seems like a stretch too..

Death: 2005-11-14

i believe that Asmodeans killer is Grandeal for the reason that she knew about his death seconds after he died and another reason is that in an interview with robert jordon on the internet he states that he will not tell who the killer was and that all you had to do was read the chapter and the few pages after that and you would discover the killer

Callandor: 2005-11-15

**Agreed, we don't KNOW of anyone who has not gotten wishes like Mat did, but for that matter, we don't know of anyone PERIOD other than Mat who has gone through that doorway. At least not as a first hand account.**

But, we know the doorway works, has worked, and a person cannot leave until they get three wishes.

**TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time, CHAPTER: The Wheel and the Pattern

Perhaps the strangest of all known ter'angreal are two tall redstone doorways, similar to yet different from each other in form and function, which do not require the user to be a channeler. Each stands independent of any supporting structure and is twisted strangely so that the eye keeps slipping away from the contour of its shape. One of these, decorated with three sinuous lines that run from top to bottom on each upright, resides in the Stone of Tear. Anyone passing through it enters a strange world where he or she is allowed to ask three questions and receive truthful answers. By an ancient compact with the inhabitants of the other side, no lamps, torches, items made of iron, or musical instruments are allowed within.

The other doorway, found in Rhuidean, is also crafted of redstone with twisting corners, but is decorated with rows of inverted triangles running the length of each side upright. As with its counterpart, no device for making light, no iron and no musical instruments may be brought within. Unlike its counterpart in Tear, what is granted within are three requests, but only at a price. The few who have ventured into it have discovered that the price can be very high.

Almost nothing is known of the worlds beyond the two doorways, except that the answers received are always true, though not always easily understood, and the requests are always granted, though not always as intended by the petitioner. Several ancient legends seem to refer to the inhabitants of the other side of these ter'angreal, and to indicate that dealing with them is both delicate and dangerous.**

Again, we've never seen nor heard of nor is there any mention of a person being denied wishes or questions to either doorway. You're taking what Moiraine said about asking questions concerning the Shadow, and twisting it beyond what it says.

**Also, Rand did ask a question relating to the dark one, about the last battle. And either because of that, or multiple ta'veren being there at the same time, it ROCKED the joint. Forcing him to nearly fight his way out... So if rand gets that reaction from merely touching the dark one in his question, imagine what might happen to one of the forsaken?**

Now you're simply guessing here. Rand didn't say that because he asked this question that it rocked the place. Heck, all of Mat's questions set off the bell and shaking of the place, and where's the Shadow touching them?

**Since we don't know how they would react, or whether or not a darkfriend would even GET a question or a wish and since we don't have any other experience with anyone other than Mat getting wishes at all, I don't think we can logically presume Lanfear got wishes (or the inverse).**

You're boiling this down to that you don't want to hear it and are trying to deflect it.

We have not heard, seen, nor is there any mention of a person being denied wishes or questions from either the Aelfinn or the Eelfinn. What you're using for "proof" if a preversion of what Moiraine was actually saying.

**My whole point being is that Lanfear fails the "obvious to the casual observer" test that is one of the crazy scruples surrounding this debate.**

She only fails if you take facts and twist them out of proportion. That's hardly failing -- that's you simply not wanting to hear about it.

And, btw, everything about Lanfear being the killer is set up by The Shadow Rising. Not one single person can point to another Forsaken and say the same criteria is present for that.

**i believe that Asmodeans killer is Grandeal for the reason that she knew about his death seconds after he died and another reason is that in an interview with robert jordon on the internet he states that he will not tell who the killer was and that all you had to do was read the chapter and the few pages after that and you would discover the killer**

1. Please quote where Graendal knows Asmodean died "seconds" after he is killed -- she doesn't state her "knowledge" (if it's not an outright lie) until a book after his death.

2. Please quote the interview. I would love to see it, since right before and after Asmodean's death, Graendal is not mentioned -- just Lanfear is.

Bayle: 2005-11-17

"But, we know the doorway works, has worked, and a person cannot leave until they get three wishes. "

Do we really? I think all we REALLY know for sure is how the doorway works under "Normal" circumstances, i.e. when Mat goes in, gets his wishes, comes out after completing the "bargain". I don't think you can describe Moiraine/Lanfear's entrance into the doorway as "normal" by any means. We have no idea at all what happens two people filled with the power enter the doorway and it melts after a flash of white light. I think you are making a pretty big jump in logic to presume they get wishes, or even live at all. (yes, we know they both live on in one way or another, but when it happens, and until the end of that book, there is no way to know otherwise, period, without taking a leap of judgment)

"She only fails if you take facts and twist them out of proportion. That's hardly failing -- that's you simply not wanting to hear about it."

I am DEFINITELY willing the hear about it, I just don't see the proof. I think the proof you provide for Lanfear-theory is made off of huge blind steps in judgement. Because of this, the is not "obvious" to the most casual observer. Only obvious if you presume things about the finnland we don't really know.

"And, btw, everything about Lanfear being the killer is set up by The Shadow Rising. Not one single person can point to another Forsaken and say the same criteria is present for that. "

I just don't think there is any well set-up proof, by the end of TFoH that says she is the killer. By the end of TFoH we have Lan thinking Moiraine is dead, and we can only presume that Lanfear is too.

Now we know more facts, they are both alive, Lanfear has somehow become Cyndane either by the DO, or the Finns. But we don't know about wishes, one way or another. We know they were both "HELD", but to what extent, we have no real idea.

Applying logic, I think them entering the door holding the power (causing the melting) was some sort of violation to the Finns and their agreement, so they were both captured and held until some sort of death sentance or otherwise. Usually the best answer is the most simple.

Having them both get 3 wishes, yadda yadda, in light of the door melting and the "far from normal" circumstances of their entrance to Finnland, is just rather far-fetched.

I will concede that taking Moiraine's warning about questions relating to the Dark One is bad proof, and stretching it. So I'll drop that and stick to the more obvious.

Callandor: 2005-11-19

**Do we really? I think all we REALLY know for sure is how the doorway works under "Normal" circumstances, i.e. when Mat goes in, gets his wishes, comes out after completing the "bargain". I don't think you can describe Moiraine/Lanfear's entrance into the doorway as "normal" by any means. We have no idea at all what happens two people filled with the power enter the doorway and it melts after a flash of white light. I think you are making a pretty big jump in logic to presume they get wishes, or even live at all.**

Please quote an example of a person not getting wishes or answers. They both got wishes.

**I am DEFINITELY willing the hear about it, I just don't see the proof. I think the proof you provide for Lanfear-theory is made off of huge blind steps in judgement. Because of this, the is not "obvious" to the most casual observer. Only obvious if you presume things about the finnland we don't really know.**

I've quoted two different sources, and have every single person that has entered Aelfinnland and Eelfinnland as proof. Where do you get off saying I'M making presumtions about what we "don't know"?

**I just don't think there is any well set-up proof, by the end of TFoH that says she is the killer. By the end of TFoH we have Lan thinking Moiraine is dead, and we can only presume that Lanfear is too.**

Yeah, until two pages later when Amys puts the doubt on that. Oh, yes, Moiraine was dead alright.

That, and then Moiraine's "small bubble of hope," her letter of foreknowledge, and the fact that no one has ever died from simply entering the doorway.

Oh, yes, she must have been dead.

**Having them both get 3 wishes, yadda yadda, in light of the door melting and the "far from normal" circumstances of their entrance to Finnland, is just rather far-fetched.**

Again, based on what? The only thing you keep putting forward is because you don't think so. You have yet to give one piece of evidence against Lanfear getting wishes, except a blatant twisting and expansion of what Moiraine says.

Bayle: 2005-11-21

"I've quoted two different sources, and have every single person that has entered Aelfinnland and Eelfinnland as proof. Where do you get off saying I'M making presumtions about what we "don't know"? "

Every single person? well every single person we have had contact with, perhaps, but not EVERY single person. After all, many have died in that "beyond land" right? They get their skins from somewhere... so obviously there are extraneous things that happen, of which we have absolutely NO knowledge.

I know you say I am jumping to conclusions, but I personally think I am erring on teh side of caution and trying not to OVERgeneralize. We have seen only ONE person enter the Rhuidean door and subsequently see what happens, only one, Mat... hardly enough to wager a strong guess. And after that evidenced use of the doorway, it did not melt in a flash of light.

Also, though I'll drop Moiraines comment about questions touching the dark one (that applies only to the Tear door anyway right?), we have absolutely NO account of a forsaken entering the door, so I don't think you can draw a conculsion one way or another. If you just make a flat line statement like, "they got wishes", I think you are assuming too much.

And perhaps I am as well, but again, I err on the side of caution. For all practical purposes, the 2nd entrance through the Rhuidean door was not anything like Mat's experience.

Couple this with the fact that both Lanfear and Moiraine are "held" in finn-landd, for reasons we can not even fathom yet, you CAN'T presume they got wishes. Nor can I rule out they did't get them. So I think your convictions, (yes and perhaps mine) are grounded in lacking evidence. But this site is theory land right? My theory is that they did not get wishes, and that the finns held them as prisoners for destroying their link to Randland... It's a theory, based on what little we actually know about Ghenjo/Aelfinn/Eelfinn, from first hand accounts.

Callandor: 2005-11-23

**Every single person? well every single person we have had contact with, perhaps, but not EVERY single person. After all, many have died in that "beyond land" right? They get their skins from somewhere... so obviously there are extraneous things that happen, of which we have absolutely NO knowledge.**

Please give a quote that says they don't get their wishes or answers. I never said they all survived; just that they all get wishes or answers. Again, the source I quoted above says simply: "... and the requests are always granted, though not always as intended by the petitioner."

You've yet to give one reason why Lanfear would not get wishes. You've already agreed that you were stretching Moiraine's statements beyond what they say. Where's the arguement anymore? Lanfear got her wishes.

**I know you say I am jumping to conclusions, but I personally think I am erring on teh side of caution and trying not to OVERgeneralize. We have seen only ONE person enter the Rhuidean door and subsequently see what happens, only one, Mat... hardly enough to wager a strong guess. And after that evidenced use of the doorway, it did not melt in a flash of light.**

Yeah, you're erring on the side of caution, and ignoring given evidence.

**Also, though I'll drop Moiraines comment about questions touching the dark one (that applies only to the Tear door anyway right?), we have absolutely NO account of a forsaken entering the door, so I don't think you can draw a conculsion one way or another. If you just make a flat line statement like, "they got wishes", I think you are assuming too much.**

Once again, how have I assumed too much? Every single person we've seen enter the Aelfinn and Eelfinn realms has gotten their answers and their wishes. There is not a single solitary reference or event where a person did not get either. There is a quote that says that the requests are ALWAYS granted.

Where am I assuming too much?

**Couple this with the fact that both Lanfear and Moiraine are "held" in finn-landd, for reasons we can not even fathom yet, you CAN'T presume they got wishes.**

Uh, yes, because, ONCE AGAIN, everyone gets answers or wishes. Their held? They didn't ask to be freed. They enjoyed the view. They needed a quick nap that lasted a few months. Who gives a flying crap -- people that enter the doorways ALWAYS bet answers or wishes. Period.

Anubis: 2005-11-25

Callandor isn't Iron Clad with his "knowing", but from all we know about the Finns, everyone gets questions and wishes. Also, you must take into account what they said to Matt.

"Wise to ask leavetaking."

Meaning, that if he had not asked to be allowed to leave, then he would not have been allowed to leave. They would have held him, and probably eventually skinned him and made him into a shirt. Whether they actually kill the people, or hold them untill they die of natural causes is debatable, but I think that considering that Moiraine and Lanfear were held and not killed, and that they feed on experiances as much as memories, I would bet on them keeping their "guests" alive as long as possible.

So yeah, we dont know for absolute sure that the Finns always give questions and wishes, but we have yet to see them not, or hear any mention anywhere of them not, so its a really safe assumption.

Bayle: 2005-11-28

"Callandor isn't Iron Clad with his "knowing", but from all we know about the Finns, everyone gets questions and wishes. Also, you must take into account what they said to Matt.

"Wise to ask leavetaking."

Meaning, that if he had not asked to be allowed to leave, then he would not have been allowed to leave. They would have held him, and probably eventually skinned him and made him into a shirt. Whether they actually kill the people, or hold them untill they die of natural causes is debatable, but I think that considering that Moiraine and Lanfear were held and not killed, and that they feed on experiances as much as memories, I would bet on them keeping their "guests" alive as long as possible.

So yeah, we dont know for absolute sure that the Finns always give questions and wishes, but we have yet to see them not, or hear any mention anywhere of them not, so its a really safe assumption."

Granted, it is a valid assumption, I just don't know that our assumption about the foxes is based on quite enough evidence. All we have is Mat going in and barely escaping with his gifts. We don't have first hand experience of the process otherwise, though I have a feeling in the next book we will get that story related to us via Moiraine...

Also, we don't know that Lanfear WASN'T killed by the Finns, only that she was held. We don't know how she became "unheld" whether it is via finn-murder, suicide, or wish.

I think it is a stronget arguement that Lanfear was killed by the finns, and this is what discounts the "Lanfear-done-it" theory. As to why, I offer this:

Ok let's presume I agree that those who go in get to bargain for wishes...(I don't believe this, based on only one personal account, but I'll go with it) If Lanfear was held (she was, we know this) this implies that she failed in her bargaining, and ergo didn't ask for leave taking. In this circumstance, her ONLY way to be where she is today would be to have been killed by the finns and migrated into Cyndane. There is no strong evidence to the Lanfear theory that points to Lanfear using a wish to escape the finns and kill Asmodean. We don't even know if that is in the realm of their powers and abilities.

It is also just as likely that they are being held for the simple reason that there is no doorway to put them back out of. When Mat came out, though he came out hanging in a tree, he was near the door he entered. Lanfear and Moiraine had no such door to exit being that it was destroyed.

I think because of the strangeness of their entrance into Finnland, we cannot presume what happened beyond the doorway. We are not told they got wishes, only that they were held. It is not a safe assumption to say they got anything more than that.

As a side note, I think we would have been told in the Cyndane PoV about being held, whether or not she got wishes/answers. There was ample opportunity to say one way or another, but it was not mentioned.

Callandor: 2005-12-01

**Granted, it is a valid assumption, I just don't know that our assumption about the foxes is based on quite enough evidence. All we have is Mat going in and barely escaping with his gifts. We don't have first hand experience of the process otherwise, though I have a feeling in the next book we will get that story related to us via Moiraine...**

Bayle, this is the last time I will say this.

1. We do not have a single reference to a person being denied wishes or questions.

2. I quoted the BWB. It says plainly:

"Almost nothing is known of the worlds beyond the two doorways, except that the answers received are always true, though not always easily understood, and the requests are always granted, though not always as intended by the petitioner."

ALWAYS granted.

3. You yourself said you took a quote far beyond what it said.

4. You do not have a single reference, scene, quote or even inference to give weight to your opinion that Lanfear would not get wishes.

**In this circumstance, her ONLY way to be where she is today would be to have been killed by the finns and migrated into Cyndane. There is no strong evidence to the Lanfear theory that points to Lanfear using a wish to escape the finns and kill Asmodean. We don't even know if that is in the realm of their powers and abilities.**

1. Uh, no, that's not the only way she could've got out from the Finn. She would've had a much worse opinion of the Finn if they held her and killed her.

2. It's easily in their powers, since we know that the Finn can effect the world indirectly -- like giving you the tools to become King of the World, but not just making you King of the World. Like putting you in a place to kill some rulers. Or some other people....

**I think because of the strangeness of their entrance into Finnland, we cannot presume what happened beyond the doorway. We are not told they got wishes, only that they were held. It is not a safe assumption to say they got anything more than that.**

You're ignoring a very simple fact here: every single person we know of or have a reference for has gotten what they want out of the Finn.

You just don't want to accept it for some reason.

**As a side note, I think we would have been told in the Cyndane PoV about being held, whether or not she got wishes/answers. There was ample opportunity to say one way or another, but it was not mentioned.**

Why? It's not like she was thinking about an essay on them. She only was making a comparsion in the strength of Alivia versus before she was held by the Eelfinn.

She's thinking, hey, there's someone whose strong. How strong? Stronger than before I was held by the Eelfinn. It's not like she was musing on the past of what happened in the Eelfinnland, beyond the quick reference that she was stronger before that event happened.

Bayle: 2005-12-06

***2. I quoted the BWB. It says plainly:

"Almost nothing is known of the worlds beyond the two doorways, except that the answers received are always true, though not always easily understood, and the requests are always granted, though not always as intended by the petitioner."

ALWAYS granted. ***

Yes it says plainly that they are ALWAYS granted, it doesn't say plainly that the option to GET wishes/questions is always available. I am not saying the Finns would not grant the wish, or not answer questions. I am theorizing that neither Moiraine nor Lanfear were even given the option.

Neither Moiraine nor Lanfear entered that doorway as "petetioners". Instead, they (perhaps, though it is unknown) violated some rule or another, ending up in their being "held".

The two options are, they went through, and got the normal treatment, got their wishes granted and were subsequently held for not asking for leavetaking. Or they went through and were not even given the option for wishes, were held right off the bat.

The quote says, definitively, that all requests are granted always, but does not say that everyone who goes through gets to make a request.

I am not refusing to see your points Callendor, and I am listening very carefully. I just differ in opinion based on not knowing enough about the Finns. I think jumping to the conclusion that they both got wishes is a large jump, considering we have heard nothing of the sort from either of them (yes Moiraine has been a bit busy... but Cyndane has mentioned nothing of wishes or questions being answered. Mat and Rand think about it all the time, it's a pretty monumental thing, to get wishes granted or 3 totally true questions answered... you'd think the thought would cross her mind by now, it's been a long time since we first met her.)

Fog and Steel: 2005-12-06

just before asmo is killed, he says something like - what, you !! in surprise. this implies that he knows the guy and i really dont see him knowing slayer \ luc \ isam, since they were created \ formed only recently - after the fall of malkier. it was probably someone from the AOL since asmo has been more or less hiding since he was freed, so its not like he got around likre the other forsaken. lanfear has already gone through the doorway so that rules her out. my bet is on moridin or maybe shaidar haran.

FraKcture: 2005-12-07

"The two options are, they went through, and got the normal treatment, got their wishes granted and were subsequently held for not asking for leavetaking. Or they went through and were not even given the option for wishes, were held right off the bat."

Not that I disagree with you, Bayle, but there is at least one other angle. I have theorized that perhaps both, and specifically Moiraine, were given wishes, but having some knowledge about the finn decided not to make any wishes and were "held". I am in total agreement that the bottom line is that we do not really know. It's fun to theorize though. That's why we're all here.

What we do know is that Lanfear was "held" (to use her term). And apparently died since she now has a new body. And Moiraine appears to be still being held. My theory is that they were both offered wishes but initially decided the best course was to not make any. Lanfear got tired of waiting (or was tricked maybe) and eventually made her wishes and ended up dying. Although it's possible that her current situation (being Cyndane) is a result of bargaining rather than being recycled.

ThunderWalker: 2005-12-07

But would Asmodean know Moridin or Shaidar Haran?

If the argument that he knows his killer is true, then it has to be someone he knew before he was "captured", or someone he met while with Rand, and probably not someone who has been transmigrated (since he would not recognize them).

I don't have the BWB. Callandor, does it say anything about the doorways, in conjunction with the agreement?

For example, if a doorway is destroyed, is the agreement null and void?

Is the agreement in effect as long as either of the doors exist?

Are the doorways linked? That is, if one is "broken" will the other still work?

Personally, I think the surprise Asmodean feels would work best with Lanfear. How this could be would be pure speculation (and as probably wrong. Just because I like it, doesn't mean RJ did. maybe it was just plot device. That is, RJ is the killer).

*IF* the pact or agreement was void, they would have no reason to help Lanfear kill Asmodean (no wishes), unless they had some other motive.

My speculation: if they cannot enter the "real" world, it may be possible for them to lead people to theirs (sort of like ice fishing -- but with the agreement, they need to throw them back -- sometimes). For example, maybe the closet was part of their world (like a TAR reflection), and Asmodean walked through. No need for balefire then. The body would be in Finnland. Maybe Asmodean made a nice vest.

I think someone should have asked RJ "How did the Finns hang Mat from the tree?" Since he has said the Finns cannot enter the world. His answer would probably be "With a rope" ha ha, then RAFO...

Nazbaque: 2006-02-02

Hasn't anyone noticed that we have new evidence from KOD.

Moiraine's letter to Thom tells us that SHE IS ALIVE. We speculated that she was but now we know for sure.

Why is this important? Beccause Lanfear obviously died since she became Cyndane. Where did she die? In the Finnland.

So Lanfear dies Moiraine lives. Why? I think that the Eelfinn don't care if you're a df, they certanly tried to kill Mat, so that's not the reason.

The Eelfinn made somekind of a deal with humans. We don't know what they get but humans get their wishes. Those who don't negotiate the prise get killed. So if Lanfear wished for something and Moiraine did not, Lanfear would die and Moiraine live. Unless Lanfear negotiated a prise or wished to kill Moiraine. Lanfear did neither. Why? Beccause she was blinded with fury. She was mad at Rand and Asmodean and probably a bunch of other people as well. So she yelled at the Eelfinn and the first three demands were granted. Very likely Asmodean's death was in the top three.

But what else did she demand? She most likely wanted Rand to suffer, but she called him Lews Therin so that didn't really work out. who is the third on the hit list? The most likely are Aviendha and Moiraine. So why are they alive? Beccause Lanfear wished for something else. What was it? It's obvious when you think about it. Lanfear and Moiraine are being manhandled by the Eelfinn. What does a woman demand when being manhandled? "Let go of me!"

So Lanfears wishes were:

1. Let go of me!

2. I want Lews Therin to suffer!

3. I want to kill Asmodean!

JakOShadows: 2006-02-03

Those are actually very good ideas. We know she was angry at the time, but when she is mad at Rand isn't a cold anger. Not a ranting raving lunatic type anger, but an "I want you dead" type anger. Methodical anger so to say. But it is entirely possible, and makes more sense than some of the other ideas I've seen. That idea gets me leaning more towards Lanfear as the killer. But I still don't think it can be proven whether she could leave finnland and what the exact account of events are. But she is the most logical if your idea is correct.

Callandor: 2006-02-03

**Why is this important? Beccause Lanfear obviously died since she became Cyndane. Where did she die? In the Finnland.

So Lanfear dies Moiraine lives. Why? I think that the Eelfinn don't care if you're a df, they certanly tried to kill Mat, so that's not the reason.**

Is this arguement going to spawn in every topic?

No, it's NOT obvious Lanfear was killed, let alone by the Finn. She doesn't mention any death in her point of views, she doesn't mention her transmigration (when every other known transmigrated Forsaken has), and when she specifically thinks about the Aelfinn and Eelfinn the most it goes to is that she was held by them. Her being killed by them would be a bit more important than simply being held.

A change occured; what that was is unknown, and given what we know from other cases, death is actually less likely.

Eddard Stark: 2006-02-03

What you propose is something that I have questioned since I read the scene where Asmodean is killed. Slayer always seemed the most likely candidate of murder. It strikes me as unlikely that The Forsaken would venture into Rand's presence while he is ready to kill anyone that channels large amounts of the Power. It is well known that the Forsaken use Slayer/Luc frequently as an assassin to knock of hard to get targets. Following this train of thought, Asmodean is a Forsaken, and could have used his services in the past. At the very least Asmodean would know who Slayer was, and his final words could then be applied to our Slayer theory.

Callandor: 2006-02-04

Slayer isn't a channeler though. Unless Slayer gave Asmodean forkroot before he killed Asmodean (in some manner), Asmodean could've saved his life by simply weaving a wall of Air seperating himself from Slayer. Slayer can't do crap then.

Eek: 2006-02-05

"What you propose is something that I have questioned since I read the scene where Asmodean is killed. Slayer always seemed the most likely candidate of murder. It strikes me as unlikely that The Forsaken would venture into Rand's presence while he is ready to kill anyone that channels large amounts of the Power. It is well known that the Forsaken use Slayer/Luc frequently as an assassin to knock of hard to get targets. Following this train of thought, Asmodean is a Forsaken, and could have used his services in the past. At the very least Asmodean would know who Slayer was, and his final words could then be applied to our Slayer theory."

Don't you think Slayer should have at least one time mensioned how great it was to kill a Forsaken, he mension that he killed two Aes Sedai in the Stone but is this to compare with killing of a Chosen?

jason wolfbrother: 2006-02-05

Only problem with that is the same problem Slayer has always had. We (the reader) did not know of his capabilities when Asmodean died. 2nd problem is the same we have with Lanfear "dying". When we finally get Slayer's pov in WH he gloats to himself about killing the two Aes Sedai in the Stone, yet makes no mention of killing one of the Forsaken. Strange if he is the killer. Yet is makes perfect sense if he is innocent. Slayer didn't do it.

Ishamael666: 2006-02-14

Didn't Robert Jordan say that "very few people who guess who killed Asmodean get it right"?

Ishamael666: 2006-02-17

Since I can't find the interview I was talking about...

I'll go through all the suspects and sum up the evidence for/against, so new people don't have to read this whole 400-odd post thread.

I will include pretty much everyone who could have, so bear with me.

Among the Good Guys:

Rand-Eliminated-He doesn't know Asmo's dead.

Moiraine-Highly doubtful. Her letter shows she's OK with Asmo teaching Rand.

Aviendha, etc.-Didn't know Jasin Natael=Asmodean.

Among the non-Forsaken Dark:

Padan Fain/Slayer-ELIMINATED. They can't channel. Balefire had to be the murder weapon (no body left, extremely fast killing, very similar description to death of Be'lal). Plus, Asmodean can defend himself against non-channelers. To quote,

Fires of Heaven, Chapter 55 (The Threads Burn), page 953 of the softcover-

"And Asmodean, sword held awkwardly and trying to look every way at once in case any Trolloc decided to turn back. Rand could sense saidin in him, though weakly; he did not think much of Asmodean's fighting had been with that blade."

-Mazrim Taim-Eliminated-Before Lord of Chaos, we didn't think he was anything more than a false Dragon.

Among the Forsaken:

-Aginor, Ba'althamel, Be'lal, Rahvin-Eliminated-busy being dead at the time.

-Demandred-Eliminated-said to the Dark One he didn't know whether Asmodean was dead or alive.

-Moridin-Eliminated-We didn't know he existed at the time.

-Mesaana-Eliminated-Didn't know a thing about her at the time.

-Moghedien-Eliminated-Trapped by an a'dam/forkroot in Salidar.

-Sammael-Highly doubtful-No reason to think he'd come out of Illian, and he expressed doubt as to whether Asmodean was dead in a POV (I think).

-Semirhage-Eliminated-No In a POV in Lord of Chaos, she thinks that Asmodean might still be alive.

-Lanfear-Possible-She's the only Forsaken who would have wanted to seek out Asmodean, Asmodean would definitely have been frightened of her, she can easily kill him. However, she was, as far as we know, in Finnland at the time. And even if a reade rknows she's not dead, it's a stretch to assume she could just pop back up in Randland to kill Asmodean.

Graendal-Likely-She doesn't really have any evidence against her. She seems to be certain Asmodean's dead, but this in conversation with Sammael, who she was manipulating at the time. She could have gone to Caemlyn to follow Rand, keeping up with the original plan to link up with Rahvin and Lanfear to take out Rand.

However, I don't think any of these are the proper canidate. I'm still pretty sure there that RJ said very few people who sent him a letter about who killed Asmodean were right. Since the idea that either Graendal or Lanfear killed him is popular, it can't be either of those two. So who do I think killed Asmodean?

Bashere.

We don't know he's of the Light (do we?). We also have the reference to the wine when he shows up in the next chapter. Yes, I know Asmodean wasn't in a wine pantry, but he had to be somewhere close. And it is the kind of subtle reference Jordan would like to do, I think.

JakOShadows: 2006-02-18

Ishmael:

Actually, Bashere walks up there to talk to Rand, at the same moment Asmo is killed. The reason RJ made that reference is that the person had to get there quickly to be killed, hence use a gateway or someother quick method of traveling there without being seen. And since Rand could sense any channeling, that brings up another question, did he feel a gateway and if not who could have killed Asmo. So that's what it was meant to tell us. But otherwise, you summarization looks fine.

I side more with Lanfear now. I used to absolutely believe it was Graendel, but there are so many things that could have happened with the ter'angreal doorway events that we can't say for sure what is possible. After Moiraine returns, we might have enough information to make a case for or against Lanfear.

jason wolfbrother: 2006-02-18

You say Balefire had to be the murder weapon and that it had to be a channeler. doesn't that eliminate Bashere right there? He can't channel.

Nazbaque: 2006-02-20

**Padan Fain/Slayer-ELIMINATED. They can't channel. Balefire had to be the murder weapon (no body left, extremely fast killing, very similar description to death of Be'lal). Plus, Asmodean can defend himself against non-channelers.**

If Balefire had to be the weapon, then Bashere didn't do it. Rand would have noticed if he could channel.

I don't think Slayer or Fain can be "eliminated" just because Asmo could use saidin. They are hardly the common non-channelers. Besides Asmo might have been a bit tired from the fight and he was caught by suprise.

As for balefire. I don't think disposing the body would be that difficult. There had just been a huge fight; lots of bodies everywhere, who would notice one more.

You have a point in that "very few people who guess who killed Asmodean get it right". Unless it means that people do guess WHO did it, but they are wrong in HOW it was done.

I still think Lanfear has the most convincing motive. But we know too little to be sure.

Ishamael666: 2006-02-20

I wasn't totally serious about the Bashere thing. It was late at night, and I had cooked up this whole conspiracy theory involving Taim and Bashere as Dreadlords...realized it was stupid the next morning.

Lanfear does indeed have the most convincing evidence, except for the held by the Finn thing.

Slayer can be eliminated based on the fact that he preens over killing 2 Aes Sedai, but doesn't mention a Forsaken.

Padan Fain would have gone after Rand. To Fain's knowledge, Rand was in Cairhien. Fain coudln't travel that fast even with the Ways. Plus, the only way to kill someone that fast with a dagger is a thrust in the eye, and Fain slashes people and lets the taint do its work.

Callandor: 2006-02-20

Jordan was asked to eliminate a suspect from a whole list of possible canidates (from all the Forsaken to Fain and just about everyone in between). He said Fain did not kill Asmodean, because he was not in Caemlyn at the time.

New Forsaken: 2006-02-21

I still think that RJs statement about it being obvious to a casual reading points more to Bashere than any one else. Asmo spent time in the borderlands before going to the Waste so he knew Bashere. Thats why he recognized his killer.

Callandor: 2006-02-22

You're going to have to quote where we know Asmodean spent time in the Borderlands, since as far as I know we have no clue where he was originally stationed, just that he knew Sammael was in Illian, and Graendal was in Arad Doman.

jason wolfbrother: 2006-02-22

**I still think that RJs statement about it being obvious to a casual reading points more to Bashere than any one else. Asmo spent time in the borderlands before going to the Waste so he knew Bashere. Thats why he recognized his killer.**

What?? He spent time in the Borderlands so he knew Bashere? Where is that? How do you know where he was hiding? and second of all what would Bashere's motive be? why would he kill a harmless gleeman? and if he knew who Asmodean really was then explain how he knew all of that.

Sorry but there is too much explanation to give Bashere as the obvious culprit. Especially given his actions throughout the books. He is clearly of the Light and not a DF.

Zerelleon: 2006-03-26

thus far i have read about a fourth of the replies posted. and after hearing disputable evidence toward slayer, greandal(spelling?) Sammael(spelling?) Bashere(highly doubtful) and others i have come to my own conclusion. would it be entirely impossible that morridin himself commited the killing? after all he was named Nae Bliss, therefore he knows many things the other forsaken do not. he could have done a moghedien type of thing, but killed asmo instead of controlling his soul like he did moghedien. and yes i have thought about how rand would feel morridins channeling from that far away. remember morridin does not channel with the the one power that normal men do. he uses the True source,(i think that is what its called), therefore Rand might not be able to see that type of channeling. ps- this may have already been covered, so sorry if it has, like i said i have only read about a fourth of the posts-

Ishamael666: 2006-03-27

Moridin is eliminated because we didn't know of his existence at the time of FoH, thus failing the obviosity requirement. Other than that, it makes a lot of sense-about as much as Lanfear. Both have a motive and means, and are very strong candidates that have one major disqualification.

dicethrower: 2006-04-02

I have a theory on why no one felt the balefire being woven (assuming this is the way it was done). Is it not possible that it was done using the true power by graendal or lanfear or whoever was responsible. I'm not sure whethere or not this IS possible, i'm just throwing the theory out their.

Eno: 2006-07-04

Ok I have no idea who killed Asmodean, but I do know Morain isn't dead Im like 90% sure Min told her that she would marry Thom, which is how she knew Thom wasn't dead and is how we know she isn't dead. By the way whoever killed Asmodean was somone he knew so either a member of the surviving Forsaken, maybe Morriden ( did they meet?), I doubt he was very familiar with the slayer or that Asmodean would have been a priority target for him. Graendel seems likely possibly even Lanfear if she wasn't dead by then, though I dont see the Finns killing her or her and Morain seeing let alone battling eachother on the other side of the doorway. Maybe after killing Asmodean she returned to the DO and was killed like Moghedien to punish her for failure. Also I highly doubt it was a male Forsaken since Rand would have sensed it.

Anubis: 2006-07-05

Kids, if its in the Most Popular Theories section then it isn't worth the bits its written on. Believe me, anything you are going to say, has been said and ignored a half dozen times by now. Or rebuted. The point is that you are not posting an original thought and are not going to change anyones mind.

And Tam. I think, in order to post, there should be quizzes to make sure that people have read and comprehended the entire thread.

Sampson: 2006-07-05

I also think we need to point out some issue with Grandal being the killer.

How did Moggy know that Rand took off to kill Rahvin? Was she the only Chosen with that knowledge?

I would hazard a guess that if ANY of the Chosen knew that Rand was going to battle Rahvin they would avoid the area… except for Sammuel & Demodred. These are the only 2 battle hardened chosen who would have gambled on either killing both Rahvin & Rand while they were fighting or when they let their guards down (whoever won). I do not see Graendal having the sack to stay in the area.

The way the scene was written, you have 2 choices. (1) that Asomdean was the primary target all along or (2) it was a chance encounter and a murder of opportunity.

If it was the latter, then who and why were they lurking around a palace that a major battle was fought, and some of the most observant and deadly fighters are securing the area. Also if the killer was a Forsaken, why would they not continue with why they were there and accomplish the mission. What was their mission if not to try and kill Rand?

If Asmodean was the mission, how did they KNOW where he was? How did they KNOW where he was going? How did they get there and accomplish the mission with out being noticed?

Now if they pre-planned and created a number of weaves and then inverted them so they couldn’t be felt, that could be an answer. But I would sure like to know how they would know what weaves to prepare and invert. But then you say the True Power, but nobody wants to channel the TP except in dire circumstances with the one exception of Ishy.

Like I said I feel everybody is chasing an answer that doesn’t exist. The plot required Rand to learn with out a teacher, so the teacher had to be removed. It doesn’t matter who killed Asmodean. The who doesn’t have any bearing on story, the only thing we gotta understand is Asmodean has been killed and he will not be returning to the story. Easy:)

JakOShadows: 2006-07-05

Sampson:

If you remember, Rahvin didn't trust the other members in the alliance and by then I'm Graendal and Sammuel had known Lanfear was going her own way. So that means that they had reason to let them fight and try and the winner when he is weakened. So it is quite possible that they didn't intend to do anything when he was strong, they would do soon after the battle. And then when Asmo walked in, he could have alerted someone if he were left alive or if he were found dead. So they had to leave and might not of wanted to risk coming back. So it is quite possible they wouldn't have come back for Rand. Now we can't prove who it was, but like you said that depends on his motive. Seeing as we don't know the motive of the killing, we can't pin down who did it.

nightblader: 2006-07-12

you know...i've read a good bit of theories on who killed asmo, and they all get discredited because the person couldn't have used the OP without rand feeling it, but what about the True Power, that could always be a possibility

JakOShadows: 2006-07-14

nightblader:

The problem with the TP is that the only person with permission to use is Ishmael/Moridin. And seeing as he was not seen alive yet, it rules him out of the question as being the killer. And I think the other forsaken would be too much worried about what the DO would do if they used the TP without his permission, not when they could risk a small amount of channeling with the OP.

Callandor: 2006-07-16

Moridin is the only one able to use the One Power after being Nae'blis. Before that, any Forsaken can use it, the majority of them just choose not to except in dire times (if then).

Sampson: 2006-07-17

I have a quick question.

Who do you “FEEL” Killed Asmodean?

I mean I do not need proof.

I do not want an explanation of why & how.

I just want your “GUT” feeling. No logic – just how you feel in the stomach.

To tell the truth, I find it sorta hard to remember who I thought it was when I first read the passage. To be perfectly honest, I didn’t really think it was important at the time, so I didn’t really give it a second thought.

Then I started reading all the theories, and my first thought was it had to be Ishmael/the watcher. Then I got my hand slapped because Ishy was dead – at least we thought he was at the time.

By now I have read ALLOT of theories on who killed Asmodean. I have to say that most of them have given a good argument for whoever the author of the theory believes killed him.

I have read theories saying it was Slayer – Graendal – Lanfear – Sammuel – Demodred and yes Moridin. I think they all present half way decent arguments that make sense and can make one imagine that it happened that way.

I do not think anybody could have foreseen that this one scene in the book would have blown up and inspired this kind of reaction from the readers. At this point, I do not think anybody really cares if they were right about who killed Asmodean, they just want to know who. You know what I mean? If it was Graendal, fine, good, I’m glad for all the Graendal supporters. It comes down to just not knowing and wanting closure.

I really do not care who killed him, but until RJ tells us I am sticking with Ishy – even if he is not intuitively obvious.

JakOShadows: 2006-07-18

Sampson:

I don't remember who I thought at the time, but my gut instinct is Lanfear, becuase she was so involved with him and they have a past. The circumstances are against her, but I wouldn't be surprise if she managed it somehow.

callmeISHAMAEL: 2006-08-02

Ok heres what i think.Graendal Travels to someplace in Caemlyn a distance away from where Rand was. Then uses the OP to disguise herself, inverts the weave, wlks to the Royal Palace. She was probably looking to steal something from the Rahvin, or maybe rom Rand. Or maybe she was gonna kill Rand. Anyway, she stumbles on Asmo and decides to kill him to save herself from discovery. She uses a tiny amount of the OP so the females cant detect her while she kills Asmo. She uses Op to make him invisible inverts weave realeases Source. Drags him away from the Palace, destroys body, leaves. TaDa!!

callmeISHAMAEL: 2006-08-02

Moiraine didnt have an angreal. She had to give the woman angreal back to Siuan in the Great Hunt. I think. Please check on that for me someaone

JakOShadows: 2006-08-03

Ishmael:

I believe that the angreal was just mentioned in passing. She may have it afterwards or not, but Siuan wasn't trying to take it from her by force so it is quite possible she still has it.

And as to your theory, it is possible, but technically you can't place an invisibility weave and then move it with out channeling through out the process. But yes, some way of hiding the body as she left is possible. The thing is you could make a case for most people just by changing the motive. So it is actually not as clear cut as that.

BigBlade: 2006-10-02

http://www.cnn.com/chat/transcripts/2000/12/12/jordan/ RJ specificaly states that Graendal killed Asmodean, in his reply to Question from Vercingetorix. Discussion over.

Callandor: 2006-10-04

**RJ specificaly states that Graendal killed Asmodean, in his reply to Question from Vercingetorix. Discussion over.**

Which is the most classic example of people not actually reading the quote at hand (and I believe has already been explained in this thread at least once if not several times -- underscoring the importance of reading the entire thread). Here is what is actually said:

**Q: Why do you think everyone has a hard time figuring out who killed Asmodean? Graendal killed him.

A: I don't know why people have a hard time figuring that out. To me it seems intuitively obvious even to the most casual observer. The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much. It's probably bad for me.**

There's no way that you can read this and not get the obvious piece of information: Jordan is saying he cannot understand why people have a hard time figuring out who killed Asmodean. He is not saying that Graendal did it. To claim that is simply ridiculous considering under 30 words later, Jordan specifically says he will not say who killed Asmodean. Yes, that makes all the sense in the world. Jordan agrees that it was Graendal, then in the same explanation says he won't say who it was that did it....

BigBlade: 2006-10-06

Yes in fact it does mean that Graendal killed Asmodean. And no where in there does he say that he wont tell who killed Asmodean. Hes saying that he wont tell them that Graendal did it because hes having too much fun watching them squirm. Go to link at the bottom it also states that Graendal killed Asmodean.

Tamyrlin: 2006-10-07

BigBlade, why would Jordan hand over the very source of his enjoyment, the watching of his readers squirm, in an internet chat that he knows will be broadcast to the world? He says he enjoys watching everyone squirm, so he doesn't tell them...yet, you are saying, he in the same breath...is telling them. In fact, Jordan continues to take questions on the potential killer...which would be ridiculous if he had simply given the answer in this internet chat.

Anubis: 2006-10-08

**Yes in fact it does mean that Graendal killed Asmodean. And no where in there does he say that he wont tell who killed Asmodean. Hes saying that he wont tell them that Graendal did it because hes having too much fun watching them squirm. Go to link at the bottom it also states that Graendal killed Asmodean.**

Here is my rebutal to Garendal Killed Asmodean:

Do a search for Graendal. Limit it to books 1-5. You will find nothing about Asmodean.

dwilson: 2006-10-08

After Asmodean is dead, either at the end of that book or the start of the next one Demandred has a discussion with the Dark One and says basicly " havent i done well lately? " and the DO agrees with him that he has done well. If you review the things that recently happenend in that book that you could consider to have been victories for the dark forces, then the only 2 obvious things are the killing of Asmodean and the setup of the Ashaman School. So there is a 50% chance that Demandred was referring to the killing of Asmodean as the thing "he did well"

Got no real evidence its just logical series of events, if anyone can think of another thing that has gone well in that book for the dark forces it could be that too i suppose

BigBlade: 2006-10-09

We shall agree to disagree.

BigBlade: 2006-10-09

After reading your chronicles I would like to apologize. You are probably correct in your guess on Lanfear.

Callandor: 2006-10-10

There's nothing to disagree about. It's simply reading Jordan's words. He never says it was Graendal that killed Asmodean, and in the same comment about the question of who killed Asmodean he says that he will not say who killed Asmodean because he enjoys it. He's a sadistic bastard on that question, but he's never answered it at all so far, so saying he did and that it's Graendal is simply false. Nothing to disagree on. One position is simply wrong.

Fizz: 2006-10-14

When I first read the passage, the first thing that came to my mind was that Lanfear was the one who killed him. Yet, I find the theory of SH very intriguing. I don't have time to search through the books at the moment, but I seem to recall Asmodean having some inner dialogue, after he had been captured by Rand possibly, about him visiting Shayol Ghul and the DO's prison. Very possible that Shaidar Haran was there when he did, so he would have recognized him, SH being instantly recognizable apart from other ordinary Fades. And when the other male Forsaken (Demandred was it? I can't remember at the moment) visited the DO's prison, SH was there to act as a sort of guide or bouncer, maybe. He was also there when Mog visited in her shame after being captured and rescued. So, if it can be proven that Asmodean did in fact visit the dark one's prison, it can be assumed that SH was there, and would be recognized. Graendal did not recognize SH, yet there has never been any mention of her visiting the DO's prison personally. Something to think about, although my money is still on Lanfear, just because she conveniently "died" just before the scene where Asmodean is killed. The world of the Finn's may be like some of the mirror worlds, maybe even as far as time having no meaning at all when inside the Finn's world. So perhaps it is possible that Lanfear could have been held by the Finns, been reincarnated, and traveled to the recently departed residence of Rahvin to search out any objects of the power and kill Asmodean, or maybe Asmodean was just a bonus from him being in the wrong place at the wrong time. But it seemed to me to be a very deliberate act, by someone who knew just where he was and was waiting for him. I don't buy Graendal killing him, as she had expressed raw fear at even the thought of Rand coming after her, so why in the world would she risk being discovered by him just to go and search for objects of the power or to kill Asmodean right under Rand's nose when she knew that he was there? She had said earlier how much she would hate to leave her palace with all of her pretty "toys" if Rand came after her, but that she would pick up and run if he started to look in her direction. Very unlikely that she would have gone anywhere near him if it could be avoided.

JakOShadows: 2006-10-15

Fizz:

That is quite possible. And it makes just as much sense as them having a special ability. We just don't see enough of them to be able to tell for sure. But it is quite possible.

Ozymandias: 2006-10-21

The only thing is is that wouldn't Asmodean have mentioned SH? Every other character who meets him/her/it is so astounded and puzzled by SH that they mention it as a matter of course. Every character, mind you (every character who knows what he/she/it is and has an inner dialogue). So why wouldn't Asmodean? It clearly should show up, because it does for everyone else, and if Asmodean is even pretending to try and help Rand, thats a good bit of information to drop.

Fizz: 2006-10-21

That, of course, is a good point. I can answer why he didn't advance the knowledge to Rand, however: he really didn't want to help Rand in the first place. I seem to remember him having some inner dialogue where he was pained over having to teach Rand, but it had said something to the effect that he had held back what he could. After re-reading the passage where he died, I am no longer as certain that it was Lanfear who killed him. In fact, it never explicitly says that he died, although we know now that he is dead. The passage reads, "'You? No!' The word still hung in the air when DEATH TOOK HIM." (emphasis mine) We know that Moridin means death in the old tongue, and surely by this time Ishy has been reborn as Moridin. We also can infer (if you believe that it was Moridin who helped Rand in Shaidar Logoth) that Rand would not have felt Moridin channel, if indeed that was how he killed Asmodean (if he killed him at that point at all, perhaps he simply took him back to Shayol Ghul), since Rand felt nothing coming from him at Shaidar Logoth. So my money is definitely on Moridin now, since I stand by my argument against why Graendal would not have been the one to do it. As for how Asmodean recognized Moridin, he could have used a weave to change his appearance so he looked like he did when he was just plain Ishy. In my mind, he certainly would have wanted Asmodean to know that it was him who was killing him. SH is an interesting suspect, but not the best one in my mind (anymore, at least).

JakOShadows: 2006-10-22

Fizz:

RJ has said that "death took him" does not mean that Moridin killed him. And as to Asmodeans loyalties, in the inner monologue before he died, he talks about them some. He is not completely loyal to Rand, but he knows that Rand is his only form of help or protection. He can't go back to the DO, or else he will be killed. His only other option is to runaway and work in his own self interest, which I don't think would help him much in his goal of immortality and/or fame. So while it might not be his most prefered alliance, it is the only alliance which gives him what he wants. I don't think he would have turned on him.

Callandor: 2006-10-22

**In fact, it never explicitly says that he died, although we know now that he is dead. The passage reads, "'You? No!' The word still hung in the air when DEATH TOOK HIM." (emphasis mine) We know that Moridin means death in the old tongue, and surely by this time Ishy has been reborn as Moridin.**

Jordan has said it's not a pun or anything. And I don't see how you say Jordan never says Asmodean died, when you quote the section that says Asmodean died (and then you go on to say that we know Asmodean is dead anyway).

**As for how Asmodean recognized Moridin, he could have used a weave to change his appearance so he looked like he did when he was just plain Ishy.**

Just like he's never done in any other instance? Confirms who he is to Asmodean -- for some odd reason -- but not to anyone else (for any other reason in the world)?

Fizz: 2006-10-27

Ok, so maybe it wasn't a pun or a play on words to say that "death took him", but as to why he would have used a weave to make himself look as he did when he was Ishmael, I answered that quite nicely in my previous post. Ishy is such an arrogant SOB that he certainly would have wanted Asmodean to know that it was him who was delivering the death blow. He didn't just tell him, as that would have given Asmodean a chance to counter whatever Ishy had planned for him. It's not that much of a stretch to think that he could have reproduced his former image, and even less of a stretch to think that he would have wanted Asmodean to know who he was before he killed him.

I'm not even completely sure that RJ will tie this up at all, he seems to be enjoying the fact that this one tiny part of the story has created so much controversy. Maybe someone will confess to it in the end, maybe not. But technically, it could have been almost anyone. But some very good reasons have been given why several others among the forsaken could not have been the ones to do the deed, and for me, Graenal is almost the least likely candidate, given her fear of discovery by Rand/LTT. On the other hand, Ishy is not precisely afraid of him, just respectfully wary. He would have no reason to be afraid to go to where Rand was and kill Asmodean, knowing that he could avoid being detected by Rand.

I stated the fact that it doesn't say that he was killed at that moment only to play the devils advocate and suggest that maybe he was captured and killed later. I have no doubt that he is dead, since RJ himself has said so (at least, I think I remember reading that question being asked of him). But that doesn't necessarily mean he was killed on the spot. He could have been shielded and captured and killed later. I don't necessarily believe that to be the case, I'm only pointing out possibilities. Since nobody save RJ (and whomever he may have told) knows for sure, we have to be open to a lot of speculative interpretation. I certainly hope the matter is resolved definitively, and I don't really care whether or not I'm right, but you can't say that my theory is any less valid just because Moridin has not done the like anywhere else. For one thing, he doesn't have to. The other forsaken know who he is and who he was, so there is no point in that. In fact, I would say that the only person who he is trying at all to hide his true identity from is Rand himself, for reasons of his own. Asmodean would not have known Moridin to be Ishy, so Ishy showed himself to Asmodean in a form that he would recognize so there would be no doubt in Asmodean's mind of who was killing him and why.

Callandor: 2006-10-27

**Ishy is such an arrogant SOB that he certainly would have wanted Asmodean to know that it was him who was delivering the death blow.**

Again, why would he do that for Asmodean, but not say Moghedien? Or Demandred? Or any other Forsaken? He's Nae'blis; if he's as arrogant as you say, he should be showing them all. Why just Asmodean, in this one instance?

**I'm not even completely sure that RJ will tie this up at all, he seems to be enjoying the fact that this one tiny part of the story has created so much controversy. Maybe someone will confess to it in the end, maybe not.**

Jordan has said he will reveal who did it if he doesn't have an opportunity to write in the person "confessing" so to speak in book 12. He said he'll reveal it after the paperback of book 12 comes out if it's still unresolved.

**But that doesn't necessarily mean he was killed on the spot. He could have been shielded and captured and killed later.**

Again, Jordan has said it wasn't. Asmodean was killed, and is dead there.

** The other forsaken know who he is and who he was, so there is no point in that.**

But they didn't know then. Moghedien clearly did not know when she first met him -- so why didn't he show who he was to her?

Fizz: 2006-10-30

I may be mistaken about this, as it has been a while since i read FoH or the books before it, but I don't think that Moridin/Ishy had securely nailed down the Nae'Bliss position before Asmodean was killed. I don't know if there is a definite time stated that he was named Nae'Bliss, but I don't remember reading about it before that, anyway.

About the other Forsaken, now that Moridin IS Nae'Bliss, he has a lot more control over them. Just assume for a moment that he did kill Asmodean and did let him know who he was. Now he is named Nae'Bliss and for someone in his position, the value of keeping the other Forsaken alive to do his bidding greatly outweighs the relief that he would have over them being dead. I can't think of a single thing that he would gain by flaunting his true identity to the entire world after being put into a new body, but if it were just he and Asmodean in a room, and he knew that he was going to be the only one to walk out alive, why not? That seems to me to be very in-character for him.

Your initial argument against him doing that, Callandor, was that he had never done the like before. I can point out hundreds if not more times that people in this series have done things that they never had before. Rand is a master of coming up with new and unusual ways to lure and trap forsaken and darkfriends. In fact, I can't remember him doing anything the same way twice, save for mundane things. That's one of the things that make the series so interesting; people are continually evolving and doing things that you would have never expected of them.

Anyway, I can't wait to find out once and for all, although not knowing is almost more fun.

JakOShadows: 2006-10-31

Fizz:

If you want to say without a doubt Moridin used a disguising weave, I wouldn't base it off of the fact that everyone has done something different throughout the series. It might make it a possible candidate for the predictions section, seeing as that requires only gut instinct. But as for theories, etc, it requires more that "it is possible" if there is no other evidence to support it than that.

Callandor: 2006-11-01

**I don't know if there is a definite time stated that he was named Nae'Bliss, but I don't remember reading about it before that, anyway.**

Moridin was named Nae'blis by The Path of Daggers. Ishamael had been the defualt lead Forsaken in essence forever, but he was given the title by The Path of Daggers.

**I can't think of a single thing that he would gain by flaunting his true identity to the entire world after being put into a new body, but if it were just he and Asmodean in a room, and he knew that he was going to be the only one to walk out alive, why not? That seems to me to be very in-character for him.**

1. How is it not "flaunting" his identity simply by being who he is? The Forsaken aren't idiots (at least not forever, if they are for short times). They realize only so many can be transmigrated. Only so many have similar knowledge. Only one has such similar actions and personality.

2. It's quite a silly argument I feel since quite a few Forsaken are more than already aware of who Moridin used to be/is. He's in no less danger. Three Forsaken know for sure; highly unlikely more don't.

3. If Moridin isn't going to flaunt himself, why presume he is here? If he is going to here, how is it not in character for him to do so elsewhere?

**That's one of the things that make the series so interesting; people are continually evolving and doing things that you would have never expected of them.**

And yet Rand still, as expected, cares deeply about women. Mat is still largely himself overall. Perrin still has his stubborness and his patience. Elayne still has her haughtiness. Birgitte is just as sailor-mouthed as ever.

As was said, if your best argument is "We've seen unexpected things before, so why not here?" save it for the predictions section.

vardene: 2006-11-02

perhaps i'm beinmg a bit simplistic here, but i agree it should be slayer based on the fact that he is the shadow's chief assasin, made for a purpose much like the gholam. And RJ says we should look for what is palin rather than ascribing hidden motives. Besides most of the forsaken probably knew about the planned attack and probably wouldn't like to get caught in the crossfire.

JakOShadows: 2006-11-04

vardene:

That still doesn't rule forsaken completely. I think it wouldn't be unreasonable if Graendal or Sammuel were there to try and take advantage of the fight. They could still stay out of the crossfire and take advantage of the situation afterward by hiding in the palace. Or Lanfear could have comeback somehow and killed Asmodean given that we don't know much about how finnland works. We obviously don't know for sure, but just because it looked like an assassination, doesn't mean it has to be slayer, as far as motives go. Not to mention the feasibility of him being able to kill Asmodean at the time is in question too.

Sampson: 2006-11-09

I think somebody should put a pool together. Everybody throws in some $ and a name of who killed Asmodean. Heck the proceeds can go to the Mayo Clinic or something.

If it comes down to placing $ on it. I would have to say Ishy/Moridin. It fits his MO, and he has a vested intrest of keeping knowledgable guidence away from Rand, so he can play his games.

JakOShadows: 2006-11-10

Sampson:

That would be a cool idea, but I don't know where any of you live and I don't really want to go to all that work of tracking you down just to start a pool. But otherwise cool idea.

I would put my money on Lanfear right now, because she has the most obvious motive.

vardene: 2006-11-15

J-o-s, slayer was sent against as sedai in the heart of stone, so there's a precedent. Besides sammel likely would have sent the gholam or slayer rather than risk facing rand and callandor.with asmodean's teaching, both rand and rahvin could have sensed any weave from graendal/sammael and struck very blindly(gateways would be detected). it's just far tooo much risk for so little gain.

JakOShadows: 2006-11-15

vardene:

Slayer is not completely out of the picture, but I still think he is the least likely compared to other candidates like the forsaken. The big piece of evidence against him is in WH, when he kills the people at the inn thinking they were Rand and Min. He thinks about how much fun it was to kill the two AS; and if he had killed Asmo, I think that would be his best kill ever since he is a forsaken and would not have mentioned the two AS in Tear.

As for Sammuel and Graendal, they could have come just as the battle started and Rand would have had his hands full. And what if Rahvin assumed they had come to help him. He did look surprised when Rand showed up, so it is possible that he thought someone else had taken care of Rand. Then once Graendal and Sammuel got there, they could just lay low and do very minor channeling to protect themselves if they had to. I don't think it is certain that they did it, but the fact is that they have the ability and a better motive than Slayer in my opinion.

BigBlade: 2006-11-15

I dont think that Slayers blades can kill in the way that Asmodeans death was described. I mean sure they are poisoned but the way Asmodean was killed would take eaither a channeler or Fains SL blade.

Callandor: 2006-11-15

**J-o-s, slayer was sent against as sedai in the heart of stone, so there's a precedent.**

Why would Slayer be escatic and joyous over killing two Aes Sedai -- and remark that that is a rare thing to do -- and not mention at all that he got to kill one of the Forsaken?

As well, one Aes Sedai was stilled, the other was shielded. Hardly an amazing feat of killing them -- the amazing thing of it is that he got in where he did, and we know how that is done. The thing for him is who he killed, and for him to not remark about a Forsaken killed is just incoherent.

BigBlade: 2006-11-16

Slayer could not be the killer. The Dark One says that Asmodean died the final death, which means that he was killed with balefire. As far as I know Slayer does not have the power to channel.

vardene: 2006-11-18

For callandor and jak-o-shadows:

Slayer enjoys killing. What matters to him is the response of the victims when they die, he said this in his WH POV(sorry i cant quote it right now). Asmodean's response was too brief, lacking in the melodrama he savours. And it had to be a brief, quick kill because asmodean was not completely shielded unlike the 2 aes sedai that he could enjoy fully.His tastes are typical of such pyscopath killers.

JakOShadows: 2006-11-20

vardene:

That may be true to some degree, but the fact is any minion of the the DO who gets to kill a forsaken would probably really enjoy, that is assuming they are not also a forsaken. I don't care if Slayer prefers to see a certain reaction, in this case, it would be relatively the same as you getting the oppurtunity to put your boss in his place after he gave you a bunch of crap. I think if he were remembering fun kills in that case, it would be mentioned even if it was for a different reason.

Callandor: 2006-11-21

**Slayer enjoys killing. What matters to him is the response of the victims when they die, he said this in his WH POV(sorry i cant quote it right now). Asmodean's response was too brief, lacking in the melodrama he savours. And it had to be a brief, quick kill because asmodean was not completely shielded unlike the 2 aes sedai that he could enjoy fully.His tastes are typical of such pyscopath killers.**

This is just plain silly. Look at the point of view:

**TITLE: Winter's Heart

CHAPTER: 22 - Out of Thin Air

Wiping the daggers clean on the coverlet, he resheathed them with as much care as he had drawn them. He had been given many gifts, but immunity to poison, or any other weapon, was not among them. Then he took a short candle from his pocket and blew away enough ash from the banked coals in the fireplace to light the wick. He always liked to see the people he killed, after if he could not during. He had especially enjoyed those two Aes Sedai in the Stone of Tear. The incredulity on their faces when he appeared out of thin air, the horror when they realized he had not come to save them, were treasured memories. That had been Isam, not him, but the memories were none the less prized for that. Neither of them got to kill an Aes Sedai very often.**

First off, again, is the mention that Aes Sedai are rare. Forsaken are orders of magnitude more rare. Killing one of them would be a memory to keep and cherish for a lifetime.

Second, he reacts to their shock and horror -- I can't help but think that matches up quite well in Asmodean's case since he was shocked, and scared enough to go bloodless in the face.

Three, even if you find the second lacking, it still doesn't make any sense because of this:

**TITLE: Winter's Heart

CHAPTER: 22 - Out of Thin Air

His patron of the moment was waiting for him. A man, he was sure of that much, but Luc could not look at him. It was not as it was with those slimy Gray Men, whom you just did not notice. He had killed one of them, once, in the White Tower itself. They felt cold and empty to the touch. It had been like killing a corpse. No, this man had done something with the Power so Luc's eyes slid away from him like water sliding down glass. Even seen at the corner of the eye, he was a blur.**

Slayer is coming to think of killing a Grey Man, something he obviously did not enjoy, yet not even think of Asmodean if he did kill him? Given the two above situations?

It's ridiculous to claim that Slayer would not make some mention of Asmodean in who he has killed when he specifically thinks on that topic -- and the rarities he has had -- more than once. Flat out ridiculous.

jumelle al therin: 2006-11-25

JakOShadows, *CHAPTER: 22 - Out of Thin Air*

Wiping the daggers clean on the coverlet, he resheathed them with as much care as he had drawn them. He had been given many gifts, but immunity to poison, or any other weapon, was not among them. Then he took a short candle from his pocket and blew away enough ash from the banked coals in the fireplace to light the wick. He always liked to see the people he killed, after if he could not during. He had especially enjoyed those two Aes Sedai in the Stone of Tear. The incredulity on their faces when he appeared out of thin air, the horror when they realized he had not come to save them, were treasured memories. That had been Isam, not him, but the memories were none the less prized for that.

It seems to me the man-slayer-enjoys the kill more than the personality. he rates this kill above the killing of the 2grey men in the WT (which was obviously more difficult but less pleasing). i also agree with the theory.

vardene: 2006-12-20

***It's ridiculous to claim that Slayer would not make some mention of Asmodean in who he has killed when he specifically thinks on that topic -- and the rarities he has had -- more than once. Flat out ridiculous.***

All based on the assumption that slayer knows who he's killing.That whoever sent him could assure him that he would kill one of the forsaken who wouldn't be able to channel. More likely he wasn't even told.

Callandor: 2006-12-21

**All based on the assumption that slayer knows who he's killing.That whoever sent him could assure him that he would kill one of the forsaken who wouldn't be able to channel. More likely he wasn't even told.**

**Date: 2000-04-04 | Location: Netherlands from Emma

Type: Live | Questioner: Kura

Q: Just one other question. Does Slayer know every Forsaken?

A: Yeah, he does.**

And other last questions, or are you willing to drop this delusion?

JakOShadows: 2006-12-22

jumelle al therin:

Asmo was pretty surprised when he was killed, so I think that those kills would still be comparable. At least mentioned in the same paragraph.

Vardene:

Why wouldn't the employer tell him a target could channel? I think it would be required information for the hit. What your suggesting is similar to an FBI agent warning people about a killer and not saying that he is armed and dangerous. It would be a stupid thing to do. Not to mention the fact that he is a forsaken would also make him harder to kill, so that info would also be required. On that note though, no matter how stupid it is, can you think of a reason why he would not tell him who he is, or that he is at least a forsaken? The only reason I could figure is that the employer doesn't want it known that he hired slayer. But I always assumed he couldn't tell anyone else about what he did for someone, because we don't ever see him or his employers worry about that.

TheDragonMustLive: 2006-12-23

I think the obvious answer here is Lanfear. That doesn't make it the right answer, but that seems the obvious answer. It could have easily happened like this: She was burned out as she lost the angreal. Her first wish is obvious: to be able to channel again. The Finns' warped sense of humor would have them grant that, but make her weaker than she was, so she's not the biggest and baddest any more. Her second wish would be to not let Moiraine wish herself out - hence Thom, Mat, and Noal having to go in after her. Her third wish would be to leave. Whether they killed her in letting her leave, or one of the other Forsaken, who knows? But one of the first things she would have done is take out Rand's teacher--first, for revenge. Second because in her weaker state she wouldn't want Rand to learn too much until she could get her claws in. If she was killed by the 'Finns and her body was already switched, she could easily have used the Mask of Mirrors to make her identity known to Asmodean before she killed him. She would have wanted him to know who was doing it.

A-Vron: 2007-02-07

500th reply! This is my first, but I read all the previous posts & here's my 2 cents. I'm not going to shed any new light, but hopefully a new voice will lead toward an agreement. My favorite pick would be Moridin because of his use of the True Power & his name meaning death. The other surviving forsaken haven't used the True Power before & therefore are not 'obvious' in that argument. But at this time in the series we really don't know who Moridin is, just as the Watcher, so he's couldn't have done it. Slayer is an interesting choice at best since he can step into and out of T'A'R' whenever he wants & get rid of the body that way very easily. But just like Moridin, we don't know a whole lot about him & certinly not enough about his powers at that time for him to be a legit suspect. I don't like the Basheare theory because the other characters revealed to be shadow have shown other bad-guy tendancies before being revealed. Graendal is a coward so there is no way she would take this kind of a risk. Lanfear was with the fins, & even though the "make a wish foundation" is a weak argument as to how she could have killed Asmo, she's a better choice than anyone else. The theory of her reincarnation & then use the Mask of Mirrors is better. Even if Mat was with the fins for days we really can't assume Lanfear was. We know that Mat was alive the whole time he was there, but if Lanfear was killed right away she could have been back in the real world very quickly & ready to exact some revenge. I'm still not sure how she could have chanelled balefire without anyone sensing it, but for all we know Asmo was all the way on the other side of the palace looking for wine. We can't assume that as soon as he left Mat & Avi that the wine pantry was the first door he saw, he could have walked quite a distance away from both them and Rand. A nice tight steam of balefire & poof, 'death took him.'

smokinbrigand: 2007-12-05

The DO states that asmodean died the final death ... balefire. Why did no one feel them channel. There are two reasons the weave was inverted or it was the true power. Rand states when he meets the "traveler" in shadar logoth that he could not feel him channel. My guess is it was moridin.

willz: 2008-01-14

smokinbrigand said:

The DO states that asmodean died the final death ... balefire.

To which I must reply:

I disagree. Balefire is not death - it is a ripping from the Existence the Pattern. So while it seems like death, it is inherently not the same.

The Dark One can choose to bring back any number of people, and the fact that he chose not to bring Asmodean back is HIS judgment on the matter - not the fact that he CANNOT bring him back.

Asmodean was killed rather suddenly, it wasn't detected by any person that wields the Power, AND the MO fits that of Slayer to a "T": Look at how the couple had been murdered, simply because thay had been in the same bed Rand And Min had shared not too long ago!

JakOShadows: 2008-01-15

willz:

you are right that balefire just removes someone from the pattern. But it would have to be pretty weak for the person to be reachable. I mean, like what Rand is in the battle around Caemlyn, when he was fighting the trollocs. And the likely hood of that happening in that situation is slim to none. If the killer planned to kill Asmodean, why not just use the full blown stuff? If the killer is surprised, they won't have the best control and it will be a lot larger. So it is possible, but in that circumstance it is not likely as far as I'm concerned.

And besides, the DO has brought back people that have disobeyed him as well as people who haven't, because he wants all the tools possible for the last battle. So if Asmo was retrievable, he would be controlled like Cyndane and Moghedien are right now and used for his ability to channel. The fact that he isn't also leads me to believe that he is beyond reach.

Davian93: 2008-01-17

****The DO states that asmodean died the final death ... balefire****

That's not exactly what he said. He said that he was a traitor and he was basically toast. The balefire comment was directed at Rahvin's death. The FINAL DEATH comment could be directed to mean that he WOULD NOT be transmigrated, not that he COULD NOT.

The actual quote:

****"TITLE: Lord of Chaos

CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Message

THE CHOSEN DWINDLE, DEMANDRED. THE WEAK FALL AWAY. WHO BETRAYS ME SHALL DIE THE FINAL DEATH. ASMODEAN, TWISTED BY HIS WEAKNESS. RAHVIN DEAD IN HIS PRIDE. HE SERVED WELL, YET EVEN I CANNOT SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE. EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME. For an instant terrible anger filled that awful voice, and?could it be frustration? An instant only. DONE BY MY ANCIENT ENEMY, THE ONE CALLED DRAGON. WOULD YOU UNLEASH THE BALEFIRE IN MY SERVICE, DEMANDRED?"****

He is only upset about the fact that Rahvin was Balefired and thus unsavable not that Asmo couldn't come back. The comment is "he who betrays me SHALL die the final death" not that Asmo specifically has been balefired.

Granted its a very good possibility that he was balefired but not a definite.

Kathy Sedai: 2008-01-24

RJ state multiple times that any casual observer can figure out who killed Asmo. Lets look at this casually. Why didn't Rand get concerned that Asmo was no longer around? Why do Graendal and Sammael discuss Asmo as a marked man after he is dead, they dont know he is dead? Who could weild enough power in the same palace Rand is located to kill Asmo, but not alert Rand? Hmm, it came to me in the middle of the night, I now beleive Rand is the one who killed Asmo.

He had learned all he needed from him, he is STILL a forsaken, and would never change his stripes, he had pretty much used up his usefullness to Rand. Besides, two other Forsaken had bit the dust that day. Why not a third?

I know Callandor and Ozzy will probably tear this one apart, but it just feels right, deep in my gut. It was like having an AHA moment.

Go after it guys.

Marie Curie 7: 2008-02-02

Kathy Sedai:
"RJ state multiple times that any casual observer can figure out who killed Asmo. Lets look at this casually. Why didn't Rand get concerned that Asmo was no longer around? Why do Graendal and Sammael discuss Asmo as a marked man after he is dead, they dont know he is dead? Who could weild enough power in the same palace Rand is located to kill Asmo, but not alert Rand? Hmm, it came to me in the middle of the night, I now beleive Rand is the one who killed Asmo."

Except for the fact that RJ actually eliminated Rand as a suspect. From Thus Spake the Creator:

-----------
Q: Can you eliminate a few suspects of who killed Asmodean?

A: No. No, I refuse to... Well, I'll tell you this. It wasn't Rand.
-----------

Catalyst: 2008-02-04

***Who could weild enough power in the same palace Rand is located to kill Asmo, but not alert Rand?***

Well, Rand would really feel any saidin kill at the time. Or, a less probable opportunity, he would feel this much of saidar as well. But you forget that a normal channeler CANNOT feel anyone channeling the True Power, the one produced directly by the Dark One. I bet my head that it was done using the True Power. And that it was Taim who did it.

Why Taim?

1. Asmodean was hiding somewhere before Lanfear kicked him out of there to get him into the Waste to find Rand and teach him. I'd bet somewhere in Saldaea at that time. And it was Asmodean who freed Taim from the Aes Sedai who captured him. After all some of these Aes Sedai died in the night Taim escaped. All this I wrote to show you how Asmodean knows Taim on sight.

2. Asmodean was a deal closer to Rand than the Dark One likes, and H.I.M. (His Infernal Majesty) ordered Asmodean dead. And Taim was sent to do it. We don't know when he was in the Pit of Doom to achieve the Dark One's blessing for the True Power, but I bet it happened. And so Taim killed Asmodean without Rand sensing it, and a bit later Taim appears and asks to take Asmodean's place (of course, he said it in other words).

3. I think that Taim is a shadow-woven ta'veren. There are three who fight for the Light, and H.I.M. also wanted something similar for himself. This is just a wild opinion.

2009 is still too far in the future for me. I already have nightmares from wanting that last book.

Dragon Tamer: 2008-02-04

On this one I am going to use Ockham's Razor to conclude that the easiest and most logical choice is.... Slayer. He seems to be a hitman of the dark (ie. his attempts to eliminate fain). He can also freely move between TAR and the real world. He kills asmodean and the dark one doesnt bring him back, he just lets him die making that "the final death"

Marie Curie 7: 2008-03-01

Catalyst:
"3. I think that Taim is a shadow-woven ta'veren. There are three who fight for the Light, and H.I.M. also wanted something similar for himself. This is just a wild opinion."

Yeah, and it's pretty much contrary to what RJ said on the subject. From RJ's Blog:

-----------
October 5, 2005

The Wheel creates ta'veren at need, making someone who is already alive one. You aren't born ta'veren. Can you imagine being around a ta'veren who is teething? *shudder* It would be possible for a Darkfriend or Forsaken to be made ta'veren, but it seems unlikely. Ta'veren are part of the Wheel's self-correcting mechanism. When the Pattern seems to be drifting too quickly, and especially if it is in the wrong direction, one or more ta'veren are created. I can't really see how making a Darkfriend or Forsaken ta'veren would help with correcting the drift of the Pattern. Ta'veren can oppose one another, when their conflict is what the Wheel "sees" as the necessary corrective. And, no, ta'veren is not Old Tongue for Deus ex machina. It came out of musings on luck, charismatic leaders, and the theory of the indispensable man.
-----------

So, while RJ said it wasn't impossible for a Darkfriend to be made ta'veren, he didn't really see how it would help in correcting the drift of the Pattern.

Clyve: 2009-11-24

While you have done some really great research here, with the fact that RJ says it should be obvious and the fact that Slayer isn't really prominent until much later, Slayer seems unlikely. Lanfear should be Cyndane, thus could Asmodean recognize her? His body disappears: thus only two possible outcomess: tel'aran'rhiod in a reverse-Birgitte fashion, or I guess balefire, we know it can be concentrated to just tuch a single object. Rand and even Moiraine use it, why would the Chosen REALLY have more scruples? Rahvin is obviously unlikely, but even now, after book 12, Demandred is NO where to be seen, why couldn't he be the one? Or morridin? or mesaana? the list goes on, there is not really enough support for anyone but one of the Chosen, and not NEARLY enough to totally back any of them. also, just a thought, why didn't the DO 'resurrect' asmodean, at least to punish him more or something? he did so even to the two losers from Eye of the World! balefire?

maharbry: 2010-02-28

The DO couldn't resurrect Asmo. Rand had severed his ties (the black cord) to the DO in Rhuidean. Not only did this remove Asmo's ability to touch the true power but also cut his ties with the DO thus not allowing the DO to resurrect Asmo. Not to mention the fact that the DO would definitely not resurrect a traitor.

TenakaFurey: 2010-03-20

I thought this issue was settled long ago. The killer had to be someone who Asmo would recognise, who would have business there, who was a channeller and who had no hesitation to kill. RJ stated it was "obvious". The killer is Graendal. She has the ability, the temperament, is someone whom Asmo would know and had a reason to be there. Noone fits. Not Slayer. Not anyt of the other chosen. Not Padain fain or Masema or anyone else. Graendal is the only one who ticks all the boxes.

White Lion: 2010-04-28

The only problem I see with it being a female channeler is that Aveindha is relatively nearby when it happens and she would easily sense a gateway or balefire being used. Same difference with Rand and any male channelers save Moridin via the True Power. Could any channeler use so little of the OP that neither would sense it? My money is on the gholam, designed specifically for the purpose of killing channelers or Shaidar Haran. He can Travel through shadows and is more than capable of disposing of a body. He might know Shaidar specially but he'd definitely recognize a Myrdraal and the DO is the first one to state that Asmo is dead.

evilcarebear: 2010-08-03

Okay, i will just say now that i apologise if i repeat anything anyone has to say, but i am not reading it all.

I agree with wolf brother, that Slayer is the killer *giggles*.

It could not be Lanfear, as she 'died' only hours before and, as we know from with Aginor and Balthamel, it takes a while to come back to life (they die at the end of the first one, and come back at the beginning of the 6th one).

Graendal is doubt, as she spent most of her time kidnapping nobles for her collection, and helping Sammael to plan getting Rand kidnapped. She probably found out about Asmodean being dead from DO.

It wouldn't have been Shaidar Haman, as all the Chosen think he is just a Myrdraal, and Asmodean wouldn't have been afraid of a Mydraal.

Also, all those people who think that Slayer couldn't be the one because Asmodean says "you, no!", this is incorrect. He could be saying it because Slayer looks like Lan, who Asmodean saw that morning, hence the "You!". Then, as he realises who it is, and that he's going to die, he says "No!", and then dies.

So, sorry it's so long, whoops.

LuthairPaendragMondwin: 2010-08-24

I doubt it was Slayer, because the Dark Lord did not order him to do it, he knew of it through other means(RJ interview where he states Demandred did not do it), and none of the Forsaken knew he was dead except Graendal.

Graendal has a motive, since Asmo is the only one who knew where she was (Arad Doman, FoH, Ch. 3)

As for Avi freaking out if somebody balefired, I don't understand why that's necessary. None of the other female channelers are with her, only Mat, and they could have been using saidar to do something else. There have been plenty of times when they take in as much of the power as they can for other things.

I don't know if this has anything to do with anything, but in the FoH, Ch. 56, Asmo sees balefire damage in the walls and doesn't want to think about it.

Here's some fodder for the "Lanfear did its: If she was being held, she could have spoken to Slayer in the Tower of Ghenjei.

wotfreak222: 2010-08-29

Very simple reason why Slayer isn't the killer....RJ stated on numerous occassions that he couldn't understand why people were having such a hard time with this. He said the answer was in FoH, that if you read the book you should be able to reason out who the killer was, and Slayer was no where in FoH.

My own theory on this one, having just re-read the book twice to make sure I got everything, is that Lan is the killer. Evidence for this can be deduced in that Moiraine knew about Asmodean, and gave Rand a letter stating that while she did not approve, she understood why he did it. Lan, as her Warder, would presumably be aware of this, and when his bond was transfered to another Aes Sedai upon Moiraine's "death" (we all know now she isn't dead, but we didn't know that at the time the book was released) he was bound to seek out his new bond holder. If you look at the maps in the books, a straight line from Cairihien to Salidar contains Camelyn. Lan could have drawn the conclusion that had Rand not protected Asmo, Moiraine would still be alive. Since Warders, upon the death of their Aes Sedai, sometimes go out of their way to avenge their death, without regard to their own safety, it is not unreasonable to assume that, upon reaching Camelyn, he decided to "avenge" Moiraine's death by killing one whom he held responsible.

Just my two cents....presumably this will all be decided when Towers of Midnight is released in November.

HeronMarked: 2012-01-18

maybe it was lanfear as Keille or whatever her name was the persona she used in the waste