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Home | Index | Archives | Help
holams
by SkullOne: 2003-01-07 | Not yet rated
Previous Categories: Miscellaneous Theories
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2003-01-08
Yeah, this is a problem. We don't know if this one is male do we? But the fact that they are male and female does suggest that, as you have pointed out, maybe their sex is key to who they were built to kill. Good idea.
Callandor: 2003-01-08
Halima aka Aginor did channel saidin at Mat in Salidar. Mats medallion protects against both saidar and saidin.
Daishan: 2003-01-08
But regardless of Mat's medallion; this WOULD solve a lot of issues. The Gholam we know of is usually described as "man-shaped" so I think we can assume that it's a "male" Gholam. What would be the point of naming them "female" if they consistently looked male, or vice versa?
So if this male Gholam is immune to Saidar, but not Saidin, then one of the male Forsaken could easily have commanded it. Someone like Sammael for instance. lol. "DGHFO" :-)
Callandor: 2003-01-09
I wasnt saying that it wouldnt solve problems its just that Mats medallion has had Saidin channeled at it. As for the Gholam under Sammaels control it is very well possible, but the Gholam in Ebou Dar is **male-shaped**. So if this holds it would be a female forsaken controling it. As for the Gholam that got Fel... we have no idea what shape it was. So its possible it was Sammael that sent it.
Tamyrlin: 2003-01-09
It would seem that there is only one Gholam that has been found...so maybe we won't have to worry about this...although, Aginor is responsible for creating them, he only uses saidin, so maybe the male and female thing was just so in its natural form it could mimic a certain body type, but doesn't really have any difference.
Callandor: 2003-01-09
Tam I thought there was 2? One in Ebou Dar and one that got Fel in Cairhien?
Daishan: 2003-01-09
That's a much-disputed point actually. I myself am a fervent "one-gholammer". Meaning that the Gholam in Ebou Dar is the same one as in Cairhien.
I think the idea is that the "male" gholam can't be hurt by Saidar but can be hurt by Saidin (since none of the Aes Sedai in Ebou Dar could hurt him). Therefore a male Forsaken would have commanded it. Such as Sammael. :-)
I love it when a plan comes together...
Callandor: 2003-01-09
Whoa just remembered something. I think that we get a POV of a Gholam in one of the books, can't remember which, but I think that the gholam said that it had never come against anything like Mats Medallion before. So maybe that might include One Power channeling?? Big maybe though.
Daishan: 2003-01-10
I remember that quote as well. I think it's either in aCoS or PoD. I think the former. But what do you mean that this may include One Power channeling?
Callandor: 2003-01-10
The quote said something like that the gholam had never come against anything like the medalion before. I dont know about you guys but I took that to mean that nothing had harmed it before. So then that might include One Power channeling at it for harming it, like what Im sure the Forsaken would use to get something under control plus we have numberous examples too. So if a female Forsaken were trying to control a **male-looking** gholam, if she were to try to get it under control, assuming that the weaves wouldnt just go caput from the sex of the channeler weakness, she might try to use **non-friendly** methods in order to control it (torture like Sem would or something).
But if the gholam had NEVER come in contact with something that could harm it, if thats what it truely ment, then it might include One Power channeling. So then we might be able to say that that gholam had never been under control of a Forsaken through channeling.
That clear it up at all or just make it more confusing?
SkullOne: 2003-01-10
Callandor, thank you for reminding me that saiden was infact channeled towards Mat & his medallion. Remember gholams were created in the Age of Legends. An age where there were both male and female channelers everywhere. Gholams were created for one thing...assasinations. Almost all Kings & Queens had an Aes Saedi as some sort of an advisor. What better "thing" to send to either kill King, Queen, or even the advisor? Nothing in the series stated that all the advising Aes Saedi were female...just that they were AS. Seeing how the male gholam cannot be hurt by saidar, I am reasoning that saidin can hurt him. And vice versa for the female gholams. Unfortunately I do not have the facts to truely back up my theory until a male channeler weaves saiden towards the male gholam.
jason wolfbrother: 2003-01-10
I think you are forgetting something. In COS Mat is describing the gholam to the Aes Sedai, Athan Miere, and The Kin. He is giving them knowledge that he received from Birgitte
pg(780) "They were made to assassinate Aes Sedai. No other reason. To kill people who could channel. The One Power won't help you; the Power won't touch a gholam."
Whether you a channel saidin or saidar is irrelevant. The Power is simply soaked up by the gholam. I think the fact that 3 were 'men' and 3 were 'women' was something that Aginor did for convention.
Callandor: 2003-01-10
I dont think so. There are WAY too many things in these books that are **coincidences** for something like there being 3 male gholams and 3 females then for RJ personal taste of always balancing in my mind.
Daishan: 2003-01-11
It's nice to agree with Callandor every once in a while :-)
3 Men and 3 women doesn't seem to be "just so ya have tha same number for both". Female gholam in my mind have to be different from male gholam for a reason. And remember where Mat got his knowledge. Birgitte. Of course she does have memories from the AoL, but she never was a channeler, and she herself stated that she knew very little about them. I think it could easily be stated that Birgitte might very well not know about the difference in operation.
Callandor: 2003-01-11
If she does she most likely forgot it. Remember she can remember things around the time of the founding of the White Tower. Thats about 300 years after the War of Power started if I remember correctly.
silverwolf: 2003-02-26
If male gholams are vulnerable to saidar and female to saidin, then why would the Aes Sedai in the AoL simply have gotten a mixed group of male and female channelers together and destroyed all of them? I think that no part of the power can harm any gholam, but that some difference does exist between the male and female gholams (other than appearance). Maybe their style of killing is different? The male gholam seems to like tearing out throats and snapping necks; maybe the females like suffocating their victims or slamming their heads against something. I think that this might end up being a RAFO.
Gird: 2003-02-26
Yes, yes. All that is good and all that. But How do you kill it? Don't give me a RAFO now give theories. Physical doesn't seem to affect at all, neither does channeling obviously. So where are the other four then? Do Gholams have a certain expiring date and dies after a certain time or why haven't we seen anyone except those that where in stasis boxes. I know we don't know for certain that the second has been in stasis but where are the rest?! A free Gholam would have created a myth over time like the vampires of middle europe. As far as we've been told the seanchan doesn't know about them so there doesn't seem to be one in Seanchanland, we don't know anything about Shara though or some country further south, north or west.
Dedicated: 2003-02-28
AOL channellers would not have feared gholams so much if they could have have blocked just one side of the power. Gholams were created to kill channellers (no specification on which half of the power). Why would even the Forsaken fear them unless they could destroy both sides of the Power? Mat's medallion absorbs both sides of the power, so why shouldn't we not assume that gholams do as well. Even the Forsaken seem to fear gholams. If they fear them, we must assume that both sides of the Source are ineffective against them.
Callandor: 2003-02-28
The only way that it seems to be possible or even plausible to get a Gholam under control is to use the TP.
Now since the TP is only for the Forsaken, and now more like only for Moridin, the good guys seem to be crap out of luck.
There are however some possible ways to kill a gholam:
Steddings?
Make a gateway about a volcano or over a deep part of the ocean and forcibly put the gholam through the gateway?
Using the same method as above but just putting the gholam into a Mirrior world?
Or move it into the Skimming place and shove it into the void?
Possible ways but have no idea if they could work.
Anubis: 2003-03-01
simple way to get rid of a gholam: wrap steel or better yet iron around it. you channel into the iron, make a hollow sphere, and put it around the gholam, then you turn it into cuendillar... PROBLEM SOLVED. egwene could do this easily i bet with her affinity to metal and apility to make cuendillar mad fast.
Weird Harold: 2003-03-20
Anubis 2003-03-01:
"simple way to get rid of a gholam: wrap steel or better yet iron around it. you channel into the iron, ...
A simpler solution that requires a less specialized ability; just fast thinking and a bit of forethought:
Gholam jumps out of the shadows.
Channeler open a gateway in his path (or under him)(or next to him).
Gholam leaps (or falls) (or is sucked) to the surface of the Moon.
Problem solved.
The Gholams apparently feed on blood, and require air to metabolize it. There is a distinct lack of both on the moon. Eve it survives, it's not likely to find any channelers to kill there.
WinespringBrother: 2003-03-20
How many Aes Sedai know there is no air on the moon :)
Wonder what would happen if the gholam ran into either Fain or Machin Shin? Or Shaidar Haran? Or the Finns, who it seems similar to? It's pretty powerful, but it has limits too, in the range of its attacks for instance. And it's protection from the one power seems limited to what Mat gets - it isn't unfallible.
Dorindha: 2003-03-26
The gholam in Ebou Dar is definitely controlled by a man. One time when we see the gholam (I can't remember if it is in the alleyway or in the storeroom in the Rahad), he says something to Mat like "he wants you dead as much as he wants her" (we don't know who the "her" is it is referring to). Therefore, it is controlled by a man, which fits with the idea that a male-shaped gholam is controlled by a man. It also implies that the gholam has be sent to kill Mat, but it runs away after contact with Mat's medallion (or when it hears the sound of other people in the alley). We know it can kill both men and women (including women chanellers - it killed Nalsaean and a wise woman) but we still don't know if it can kill male chanellers as well. I think it probably can, as it can kill everyone else.
There is still a problem of how to stop it turning on its "master", but maybe it is just inbuilt - once it is given a task, it obeys that person, and must fulfil that task, or maybe it is used by some kind of compulsion, but I don't think we'll ever know for sure.
It might also be useful to work out who sent Falion and Ispan to the Rahad - were they also after Elayne etc, like the gholam, or were they after the cache of angreal? It's a huge coincidence that they are there at the same time. I think they were sent to Ebou Dar by Moghedian, but there is nothing to say someone else might not have sent them into the Rahad on that day. I think I remember Sammael saying to Graendal at one point that he has his eye on some angreal - it could be the same. We also don't know who sent the workmen who were taking the stuff out of the storeroom - were they with Falion and Ispan or someone completely different? They seemed to be there before Falion and Ispan.
The problem I have with this idea though, is, if they were all sent by the same person, why bother sending the gholam at the same time as Falion and Ispan? We know for sure that this gholam, whatever the other ones do, is made to kill FEMALE channellers, which includeds Falion and Ispan.
This post is a lot longer than I intended it to be, but there are so many loose ends that we will probably never know the answers to.
Anubis: 2003-03-26
harold... my way leaves you with a cool gholam statue. the gateway idea has already been posted, another possibility involves opening a skimming one, walking through and dissappearing the platform under the gholams feet. he would fall for eternity.
i wonder how the previous 4-5(?) died though. do they die of old age? i didnt really think so.
Korell: 2003-03-26
I personally think that the best way to do away with a Gohlam is the idea about opening a gateway horizontally to the skimming place and shove it through problem is more then likely somone will have to sacrifice themselves to accomplish this by throwing themselves in as well i know there is a comment in one of the earlier books that egwene said somthing to the affect that it would be nearly impossible for the gohlam to get out because somone would have to open another doorway to the skimming place right where it was falling for that to happen and it would more apt then not have to be horizontal as well..as for killing a gholam as the way it is explained that male channlers make thier gateways by folding the pattern you should theoretically be able to slice a gholam in half by doing this because even if they touch the weave and the weave dissapates they are half in on place and half in the other just somthing to think about.
Wyrohn Charin: 2003-03-26
Alright, the main point of this theory post is that maybe male gholams kill female channeler's and vice versa. (I had to right that down for myself; I nearly forgot after reading all those posts)
One main rebuttal was that if they only killed one type of channeler than why didn't both types team up on them in AOL? Well, maybe that is what happened to other 4 gholams. Maybe Aes Sedai did team up on them and after Aginor lost four, he put his remaining two away.
Another question stated was that if Gholams are invulnerable to both halves of the OP, how would the forsaken control it? Maybe Aginor set it up to follow his command. The gholam didn't show up until Ossangar appeared on the scene. Maybe little Aggy realized after his first death that the good guys were going to be harder than he thought, and so he released the Gholam on everyone that was at TEOTW. That would account for the Gholam trying to kill Matt and the infamous "her" could be Moraine because she did hold him up for a long time at the eye or (more plausibly) Nynaeve because she attacked him at the eye and the Gholam could have been sent to intercept her there.
Alrighty, another point made for the Gholam is that we should assume that it absorbs both sides of the power. There is two things I'd like to say to that.
1. The Gholam was made by Aginor while the medallion was given to Mat by the Finns. Yes, there is a correlation between the two object's abilities but it stops there.
2. Assumptions are the mother of all screw-ups. We need theory, not assumptions.
Both sides have their points and holes but I am going to have to say that I like the idea of males vs. females and vice versa. It kinda fits in with other Jordan writing. Plus, one major idea throughout the books is that men and women are the most powerful when working together. If both gholams affect different sexes then they would be a godly team.
*Final point (I promise) Gholams seem a little too fast to me to be suckered into jumping through Gateways.
Wyrohn Charin: 2003-03-26
The fourth paragraph of my post is supposed to say, "Another point for the gholam that absorbs both sides of the power." Sorry, for the mistype.
Anubis: 2003-03-31
Open a gateway under the gholam trap door style and let gravity doo the dirty work ;). i believe that rj said that was possible (the gateway thing).
And gholam have to bee imune to both sides of the source or they wouldnt be a threat. all a channeler would need to do is find a man/woman to link with and then hurl the appropriate pouwer (or both for good measure) at the damn thing.
HunterofTrollocs: 2003-04-08
I believe that Gholams can be harmed with the power. I also agree that saidar by itself with do diddily squat and the same with saidin. In the AoL male channalers and females worked together all the time. I think that when saidar and saidin work together or are spun together, it will kill the gholam. I also think that mat's medallion was made with both, thus being able to harm the gholam.
silverwolf: 2003-05-18
We already know who sent Falion and Ispan to Ebou Dar--Moghedien. Reread ACoS if you don't believe me. We can assume that the men were with them since they apparently arrived at the same time and did not try to stop each other.
Also, we can infer that Sammael sent the Gholam; when Carridin complains that there are Aes Sedai in the city (read ACoS), Sammael chuckles and says he will send Carridin "...someone...to deal with them. I almost wish I could see their faces." After more evil laughter, he leaves. The point is that a couple chapters later the Gholam shows up and tries to kill Elayne, one of the Aes Sedai.
rubbernilly: 2003-05-19
I think those that see the coincidence in the 3/3 gholam ratio and point to the hand of RJ balancing which side of the power they are immune to miss the first requirement of an assassin:
To go unnoticed.
There are places that a man can get that a woman cannot, and there are places that a woman can get where a man cannot.
To have the perfect assassin for any given task would have meant having a woman-shaped and man-shaped gholam.
I personally am of the camp that gholams are immune to either side of the power, and are instead controlled by a particular talisman. Perhaps one that controls them all (however many are left), or perhaps there is one for each.
Corlm: 2003-05-20
I think that male gholams get killed my male and female by male chanelers. but it seems they just regenerate so its stil hard. and they are really fast so opening a gate way to anywhere wouldnt work. and people cant Travel to places they havent been or they might of tried seanchan or shara ya know? and the air bieng sucked through the gate way to the moon would be killer to say the least. the medalion hurt it because it rejects the OP so it rejects its magical base too and thats why it melted or burned the Ghoalm. read and argue away.
araqyl: 2003-05-21
From what we saw of the gholam in Ebou Dar they do not regenerate, instead they just don't get hurt (Mat's medallion the obvious exception - it still bears the brand at their next meeting).
The reason it disappears in the alley is because it was given orders to get 'her', and to kill Mat with no witnesses. Noal was there (a witness) so it took off.
With gholam and the power, I'm definitely in the "both halves of the OP can not harm any gholam" camp. Its PoV as the ladies leave Ebou Dar to use the Bowl states quite clearly that it had encountered _nothing_ that could harm it before Mat's medallion, and it was quite active in the War of Power.
As to where the other gholam are, perhaps they got buried during the Breaking - even if you can't die, and can squeeze through the tiniest cracks, having a continent fall on you in pieces will make for a killer maze to try and find a path through...
Korell: 2003-05-21
Actually if i remember correctly i could be wrong it has been a while the medallion actually absorbs the one power not rejects it perhaps the medallion is abosorbing part of the gohlam who knows though we will have to RAFO
Corlm: 2003-05-22
Well You are right about them not regenerating. I remember those parts of the books now. Well ponder on this though those stasis chambers or whatever they were called haven't all been found yet maybe that is where some of them are. its possible that the medallion absorbs it but where does it go after that...just gets cold? idk reply.
heronblade: 2003-06-05
are the gholams 'human shaped' or do they 'look human'? if they are only roughly shaped then thay'd be fairly obvious. i think they could be self replecating, thats why there were both male and female gholams. the female could be on a nest somewhere.
rubbernilly: 2003-06-05
Ugh! Gholams with a hive mentality.
Wow. Don't go there, the Gholams are already deadly enough as they are!
But it does make you think about what that Queen-Gholam would be like... and her Praetorian-Gholam guards... and...
NO! NO! NO!
I won't think about it.
heronblade: 2003-06-05
well, we've established the quote says human shaped not human looking so ease of movement doesnt fit. i also really dont like the idea of this being a symitry thing that A decided on three of each for the sake of it. what else is there but replecation? (ewww...)why six and why three of each? it would be pointless for them to be vunerable to one half of the power based on appearence. and do they metabolise blood? if it was a semi-organic prosses then there would have to be some form of internal distribution and therefore damage when the skin is broken. i dont know. perhaps the corpses are semi digested into the new forms. in that case the abdoman would be vunerable. yuck!
Corlm: 2003-06-22
On the point about the Gholams actually digesting it. Maybe it doesn't need it persay but feinds for it just because its evil. Maybe it just replaces its own blood giving it the the soul energy. because I think its dark one evil grows weak when it doesnt have blood but Hand of The Dark one... Shaidar Haran I think his name is talks about the longing it gets from being away from pit of doom and Thakin'dor. But if the Ghoalms suck blood maybe it the heart too? because Robert includes other fatasy type names in the book its all the troloc names backwards with a letter or something. but your guess is as good as mine.
Niahanchi: 2003-06-24
Hurting a Gholam? The obvious answer seems to be to use the power in an indirect manner. Something similar to Elayne throwing mud at Mat.
There has to be an obvious way to control the Gholam. One thing that every Forsaken has in common is paranoia. There is no way that Aginor would create anything that couldn't be controlled. I don't really have any evidence in this point but for my brain keeps screaming mind trap (I can't remember the spelling of the actual name ;-) )
The Mat's medallion hurting a Gholam reminds me of pushing the two like poles of a magnet together...
Callandor: 2003-06-24
RJ has said that Arignor was a mad scientist like person and he even gave the example that Arignor would put the Ebola virus with an airborne strain just to see what would happen, even if it created a mass plauge he would just say... Interesting.
Shadow Bane: 2003-06-24
I have got to agree with Rubbernilly. Gholams just need to go unnoticed so there are both sexes. As for the 3/3 ratio...symetry?
Ashaman Ragsdale: 2003-07-25
I like the idea that the female gholams are for male channlers, and the male gholams for female channlers. Whice is kinda like (So far as i know) Only females can heal gentaling, and only males can heal stilling! Maybe theres no connection...!
Anubis: 2003-07-26
hey, i have a question. what about the gholams clothes? how do those change? you would have to assume that your plain unnoticable clothes during the aol would be different then the ones during the aon (age of now). are the clothes part of the gholam or does he find a new outfit? is he terminator 2 style or not?
Korell: 2003-07-26
it would stand to reason that it is more like Terminator 2 style where his clothes are part of him because they were pretty well made to blend in anywhere and they might not always be trying to blend with the same people i mean one time it might wear clothes that the aiel wore but another the livery of a servant so i think this would make the most sense
heronblade: 2003-07-31
Couldn't he just kill some1 for the stuff he needs, he doesn't nessaceraly need 2 morph them
Fashteal: 2003-08-02
Is it possible that neither Saidin or Saidar can hurt the Gholam. But wasn't it in the AoL that they made weapons from the One Power. Just like Mats medallion is. So they might have just made a sword, spear, whatever, the same way they made the medallion and used it against the Gholam. Causing Aginor to put the remaining two in a stasis box.
Anubis: 2003-08-03
the gholam has encountered NOTHING that can hurt it. not a shiney sword. not a pointy spear. not a bolt of lightning. NOTHING. the medallion is a first for it. also the forsaken are afraid enough of the gholam that it is obvious that they know of no way to hurt it. i wonder who put it in the stasis box tho... mebby one of the forsaken put it in as a future trump card?
heronblade: 2003-08-04
using the power indirectly wouldnt work. remember matts dager. he stabbed it and it didn't blead...meaning they could be something like animated clay
Fade: 2003-08-13
just to post some new information on what has happened to the rest of the gholams: RJ said in hos most recent interview that gholams will die from old age. VERY old age i might add. second, gholams are too fast for someone to try tackeling them off a platform and into nothingness, or to be trapped in iron being wrapped around it, so those theories for killing it are out. third, from the PoV of the gholam at the beginning of PoD we know that the gholam can sense both saidar and saidin in roughly the same manner, leading me to believe that it is immune to both of those. that PoV also shows us that it can sense the True power in a different way. could this potentially be the manner in which the gholams are controlled? a little bit of TP Compulsion, or a specific weave being laid on the gholam? this would seem to work even, following the quote: "it had never encountered anything that could hurt it".
anyway, just a few thoughts and updates to keep the fires burning.
Corlm: 2003-08-21
Something so simple but not said really. Fight fire with fire. so fight anti magiv with anti magic like matts madallion. Or an ogier Jewel carrier.
shane: 2003-08-27
Corlm in your last posting you said''
Something so simple but not said really. Fight fire with fire. so fight anti magiv with anti magic like matts madallion. Or an ogier Jewel carrier.''
What is an ogier Jewel carrier'' !!
Anybody else???
Jiana: 2003-08-28
I have two questions. One is: What is an Ogier jewel carrier????
Second one is (and believe me I am embarrassed that I have to ask): What exactly is a stasis box? I mean, I know what it is used FOR, but not exactly what it IS. For instance, how big is it? How does it work? Is it something small that looks like an ordinary trunk but utilizes the fifth dimension on the inside of it, or what?
juitzhead: 2003-08-28
Jiana, never be embarrassed to ask a question, unless it's "Who's Lews Therin?"
Anyhow, your question will have everyone stumped and will only give you theoretical answers because it hasn't been described in detail. All we know is that you put something in there and it doesn't get affected by age, sort of like AOL tupperware.
Perhaps a va'coule sort of mechanism, although i highly doubt it.
heronblade: 2003-08-29
right, as far as i can tell, there are three things that share the gholams weave destroying properties. 1) matts fox head amulet. 2) a jewel carrier(??!?!?)and 3) steddings. we also know that when a gholam comes into contact with one of these things it 'burns' (matts amulet) so y cant we bring it into contact with the others. realistcally we cannt get it into a stedding... its to smart 4 that, but what about one of our channelers 'descovering' how to make one. no less plauseable than some of the other things that have happend in the seiries. or tricking it into one of these jewel carriers (that i assume are boxes of somesort) setting it up behind a gap in brick wall then setting matt up with people hidden out of the way to appear round the corner.
Callandor: 2003-08-30
I think the Jewel Carrier could be the ter'angreal that creates the stedding-like properties of Far Madding.
Korell: 2003-09-11
actually mats medallion does not work like a steading. in a steading they cannot touch the OP but they can atleast in far madding draw from a pool mats medallion unravels the weaves now there could be a similarity but there is no proof either way however if somone would try to channle into the stedding from outside then we may know the answer if they work the same or not based on the affect it would have
heronblade: 2003-09-22
Im sure i read somewhere that you cannt channel IN TO a stedding, the weaves disolve. Not to sure where though.
Korell: 2003-09-23
you cannot channle into a steading i was refering what the exact affect is if you tried to weather it would tear the weaves appart or if it would absorb the weaves that is the diffrence i was refering too never the less if you really wanted too you could use the power to fling somthing into the steading here would be an amusing seen
Mordin uses the OP to lift a trolloc high in the air and then flings him into the steading> Look out flying trollocs lol
Jiana: 2003-09-23
First of all let me say congratulations to all new Elders, including the ones raised in July (?) that I didn't congratulate before. :)
Second... Hmmmm, Traveling INTO a stedding... I didn't think it was possible. I wonder what would happen if you tried to Skim into a stedding though. Would you just not be able to open up your gateway for departure and end up the-Creator-knows-where? Or would it just not work period?
heronblade: 2003-10-04
could a channeler wearing matts medalian touch the source? maybe they could wear a well 2.
DaisharMalkier: 2003-10-12
Gholams may really just be the snake people from the red terangreal drawn out of their world. They are hurt by Mat's medallion because it is made from the True Power and they were drawn out from their world by the True Power, the same power Moridin uses.
Korell: 2003-10-13
there is absolutly no indication what so ever that mats medallion was made with the TP not to mention that it has been said that i belive it was Aginor made the Gholam along with most the other shadow spawn besides only the minions of the dark have access to the TP because it is a power recived from the DO
Zaela Sedai: 2003-10-13
1) As RJ said gholams die of old age, This one was let out of a statis box, and the rest are probably still in them. I'm underthe impression that they probably lived as long os the AoL AS did, not 3000 years, not to mention that nobody has ever heard of them before now. They were put in statis boxes before the dark one was sealed so they would not age. (that is my thought anyways)
2.) I think Sammael let one of these out because when he was talking with Greandal, he said he had found some great thing in the statis box he recovered and would not tell her what this was.
3.) there are 3/3 for a reason and not to reprodce, they were made not bred like the trollocs.
4.) As for the theory, I agree i makes perfect sense that male gholams kill female AS and are subject to sadin hurting them and vice versa. Mats medallion was probably made with both sides of the power and could harm either a female or male gholam. In the AoL it wouldn't be worth making the medallion to protect against only one side of the OP because both were used constantly.
5.)Tricking a gholam in to a gateway is not likely, they're not that stupid.
Deadsy: 2003-10-13
I think only Mat's medallion, old age, and Aginor can kill them. He created them so that's how he can control them. I think he probably made it so whoever opened the stasis box(es) could order the gholam(s) that are inside. I agree that they were made female and male so they can be used for different tasks. According to Mat:
"You won't know the gholam until it's too late. They look just like anybody else. On the outside."
Mat: 2003-10-13
As for the controlling of the Gholam I like to think that since they cannot be touched with the one power that when they were created, which must have been with the power, they were somehow attached to a Ter'angreal. So they are linked to this ter'angreal which gives the person who possess it control over them, or mastery. Sort of like an A'dam, since it is made with the power put doesn;t require channeling to use, ie Sul'dam's can touch the source but have not been trained in channeling, also the A'dam works as a barrier whether someone is connected to the bracelet or not.
I am of the opinion that the different sexes were made so that stealth was more of an option, ie some places a man cannot go, like the woman's quarters in Fal Dara.
I too recall the gholam shocked at being hurt, and expressing it as a new sensation, creates a personal vendetta towards mat.
Also for the theory of travelling a gholam. Well since the threads do not touch him, can he go through a gateway? wouldn;t he just walk through it completely ignoring the effects. this is what I believe.
Laguna Loire: 2003-10-14
Gholams seem to be like Advanced Vampire T1000. Thirsts for blood, incredibly strong and fast..live long time.
Mats Medallion is made of silver. Could it be that Gholams are vulnerable to silver. They are kinda like Blade being Daywalker..they dont seem to have a problem in the sun. But the Silver Medalion hurts him.
Aginor was a biologist and creating vampire T1000 is a very Aginor like thing to do. The reason Gholams havent encountered anything to hurt it before is because no one thought of using silver on them.
Gholam attacks you..whats the first thing you try. Channeling...ooops..doesn't do nutting. Fight it with my sword...nope..just as useless. I guess I have no choice but to throw money at him...I dont think so. Victims would most likely run or die before thinking of using silver.
Another way to kill them. What about explosives. Mat rigs up some Illuminators Firework Atomic Bomb of Destruction, projects it into the VT1000, Arny style.....and watch it explode. If that doesnt do it...take all the little pieces before they start coming together...box them up cuendillar stlye the Egwene way..and put them in different spots of the world. I think that would take care of it.
The whole 3 male 3 female thing could be like this. Males were made to kill females and the female made to kill male..but both are protected from both Saidin and Saidar. The difference could be in who controls the Gholam also. Male Gholams have male masters while female Gholams have female masters. Male forsaken would use his male Gholam to kill himself some little female channelers.
I have some other ideas on how to kill these VT1000s. I know a gazillion ways to kill anything and will be happy to post some of them.
DaisharMalkier: 2003-10-14
The medallion that mat wears sucks up the one power. They don't see the weaves around it, not even Rand did, and he left a burn on the gholam when he hit it. Now if the gholam is related to the True Power then that would happen and if he wasn't then he would just have been smacked on the side of the head.Happy, Korrel
DaisharMalkier: 2003-10-14
Aginor might have been allowed to use the True Power but when he created the gholams he pissed the DO off and then he took it away. He could have drawn them out through the ter'angreal using it before he lost the True Power. Thereby the whole I am stupid and shut up theory doesn't work my friend.
Korell: 2003-10-14
ok lets start with Mat
"Also for the theory of travelling a gholam. Well since the threads do not touch him, can he go through a gateway? wouldn;t he just walk through it completely ignoring the effects. this is what I believe. "
When a Male chanller makes a gateway it sorta folds the pattern and opens a hole betweem the folds fold a blanket in hald and then cut a hole in it all you have to do is step through the power is only holding the hole open therefore we can assume that as long as the Gholam did not touch the edges of the gateway he would be able to pass through just like anyone else
Secondly. Kaream Inmagenes
"who's Lews Therin? "
Have you actually read the books? if not and you are researching to decide if you want to Lewis Therin is the original Dragon
3rd Laguna Loire im not gonna quote you because there would be to much to qute
First off the idea that silver would hurt the Gholam has been mentioned before as has the similar vampire idea but here is the problem with it why would he create this thing that is virtualy indestructable and make it vulnerable to somthing so common place? its sorta like making a CD copywright protection software and letting it be overidden by holding down the shift key. the point is at some point in time i would think that they would have come into contact with silver because they were in use before these most recent events it has been said that they were used i belive it was during the war of power to kill AS and surley during that time they would have to come into contact with silver of some sort (besides which i cant see Jordan putting somthing so simple in one of his books why have it be mat who the Gholam is after if all he has to do is touch it with Silver why not make it chase Perrin or somone that is not a main char i hope you see my point
Callandor: 2003-10-14
**Mats Medallion is made of silver. Could it be that Gholams are vulnerable to silver. They are kinda like Blade being Daywalker..they dont seem to have a problem in the sun. But the Silver Medalion hurts him.**
I don't care if you had 4 Mat's, NO ONE, even a gholam who has been locked away for 3000 years, wouldnt have come across silver.
Scenario: Gholam on a mission to kill in desguise. Traveler walks by, and he drops his purse, coins spill all over the ground and one just touches the gholams foot. It would burn, and he would know something had hurt him.
Sorry, but silver itself isnt it.
Mat: 2003-10-14
If a gateway is just a hole in the air surrounded by the power, the why does the back of a gate look different, also how do they pick the weave apart.
The descripe it as embroidery and give the image of the whole door wavering. I still stand by my belief that a gholam cannot be travelled or skimmed.
DaisharMalkier: 2003-10-15
Mat
When they pick the weave apart it dissapates instantly, but the hole doesn't. It corrects itself to attune to the missing power and turns normal, henceforth, the shimmering closure
Mat: 2003-10-15
Um, when they pick a gateway apart it does not instantly dissapate. Do you recall Aviendha picking the weave apart outside Ebou Dar. It did not instantly disappear, in fact it was quite a stressful act and the gateway was distorted. It eventually exploded, guess you can consider that instantly disappearing if you so choose.
rubbernilly: 2003-10-16
laguna -
Man: "I know over a hundred ways to kill a man."
Little Girl: "You could duct tape a jar full of rats to his face, and then blow torch one end so they had to eat their way out through his face."
Man: *Pause* "One hundred and one."
***********************
Mat -
Aviendha's gate did not explode. Aviendha knew what she was doing. Later, when Elayne tried to duplicate the feat without practice and in an area where saidar was acting funny, hers exploded.
Aviendha stayed with her, and when Elayne learned of the possible consequences, that Avi could have been stilled just for remaining by her side, she decides that she wants to go through with the first-sister bonding right away.
Korell: 2003-10-17
Mat
When a weave touches a gholam it disapates it does not pick a weave apart it does not know how it does what it does it just does it
and yes the back of the gateway is diffrent but if you read about how men form gateways what i stated is how it is described i will try to find the quote when i have a chance but it basically says that the world is folded and that you are cutting a hole in it and stepping through basically it is as though there is nothing between you and where you are going
EvilJawa101: 2003-11-11
Ok first, of all I'm sorry if someone else mentioned this before, I didnt read everone's response really thouroughly. First I think gholams were created with the true power, it makes sense since Aginor probably had access to it when he made them. Thus far I can't remember anyone channeling the true source at one of them. So first maybe can it kill them. I dunno. I'm not usre and as far as Rand and company go, their in trouble either way. So my next idea as far as killing goes. Now this is a little shaky and loosly based on two things. First that the amulet Cadsuane had that went cold was somthing like what Mat has. Secondly, the shape of the ter'anglreal isn't that important to it's function. Why not make a sword akin to Mat's amulet. I think stabbing those things, would, eventually weaken, if not kill it. Regarding the whole male gholam to kill female and vice versa...I makes sense, but I can't say one way or the other. One final thought, now I've only read the books once, so I won't swear to it, but I'm pretty sure I remember when we got the POV from the gholam, he mentioned something akin to being free. Ok now to me this makes perfect sense and clears up a lot of things. Ok heres how I think it goes. First the forsaken know how to control these guys. Before he was killed, I beleive Samael found the gholam. He was looking for stuff from the AoL, so it would seem logical to some extent. So then he sent the gholam to kill Mat, now this could be for one of two reasons, I'm ignor the she right now. 1:Samael is seriously worried about Mat's army, although, I doubt this, seeing as their is a lack of channelers. 2:Samael can't send the gholam after Rand, so he picks target #2. Now why wouldn't he send it after Rand? Because Rand could channel and kill it. Of course assuming the male half can touch it. But just a theory. That would also explain why the gholam was free. Here i even got up to find it:
For its entire existance it had been compeled to obey one or another human, but its mind held the concept of not being constrained. It must follow the women. It wanted to follow. pg 84 PoD for any who want to see it themselves or read more.
So yea, thats my theory.
Callandor: 2003-11-11
**So then he sent the gholam to kill Mat, now this could be for one of two reasons, I'm ignor the she right now. 1:Samael is seriously worried about Mat's army, although, I doubt this, seeing as their is a lack of channelers. 2:Samael can't send the gholam after Rand, so he picks target #2.**
No, Sammael sent the gholam after Elayne and Nynaeve because they were after the Bowl of the Winds and ter'angreal stash, while he was also after it. Mat was there by ta'vereness.
Korell: 2003-11-12
I dont particularly agree with the idea that Gholam were created using the TP. You bring up an interesting thought about the Gholam being free but could the Gholam thinking this not be thinking it because he was free of the stasis box? as for the He she thing the Gholam that mat has fought has always been descibed as male since the gholam was originally sent after Nynave and Elayne it does help the theory of men gholams after women and women gholams after men but there is no definitive evidence to support or depose this theory
Caldazar: 2003-12-05
I don't know if this has been explored before (sorry if it has). I was thinking about Mat's medallion hurting the gholam, and I came up with the idea that maybe the gholam is made with Saidar. When Mat's medallion touches the Gholam it negates the saidar present in the Gholam. Just a thought.
heronblade: 2003-12-06
when sammy was talking about the stasis box that was found he mentioned that a load of stuff went walkies after rand killed various forsaken then RJ made a point of metioning a plain ring gren was wearing that wasn't her style at all before the gholam apears for the first time. fome kind of TA to control them?
Callandor: 2003-12-06
**then RJ made a point of metioning a plain ring gren was wearing that wasn't her style at all before the gholam apears for the first time. fome kind of TA to control them?**
No, the plain ring Graendal has is an angreal she found.
**TITLE: Path of Daggers, CHAPTER: 12 - New Alliances
Graendal's hand went to the only ring on the table that was not a signet, a plain golden band too small for any but her little finger. It had been a pleasant surprise to find an angreal attuned to women among Sammael's possessions. A pleasant surprise to have time to find much of anything useful with al'Thor and those puppies who called themselves Asha'man constantly in and out of Sammael's chambers in the Great Hall of the Council. They had stripped it bare of what she had not taken.**
Deth: 2004-02-04
Was Mordeth a gholam? Seems to me he has some of the same characteristics. When Rand and company first met him he seemed hungry. Obviously being stuck in Aridhol for a thousand years without a blood snack might do that to a fellow. He thinned out and dove into a crack in the wall. Sounds like something a gholam would do.He had no shadow.My memories holier than Mats but wasn ‘t there something about the gholam in Ebou Dar having no shadow? .Besides which Mordeth also changed in some way while he was in Aridhol. Somehow he became independant of the DO or else the darkness that killed Aridhol would be the same as the DO”s evil which it definitely was not. Someone suggested Ishy sent him there during The Trolloc Wars to take Aridhol out of the fight.Who better to send than a gholam. If he wasn't a gholam when he met rand ,mat and perrin what was he a ghost.I don't think they go in for ghosts in Randland. If Mordeth was human lets face it he would be dead by now no matter what kind of power he possessed. Only a construct such as the gholam could still be around after that length of time.
As for the age thing well RJ never really said how long they live. Extreme old age could be 2000 years old or something.Whatever changed him in Aridhol could have altered the lifespan thing to. A renegade gholam if you will with his own goals and objectives. Now with the Fain/Mordeth mix I don't what he is.
dragonsceptor: 2004-02-04
I don't think Mordeth can be a Gholam. Two reasons, there are multiple occurences of ghosts in the WOT and specifically in CoT. Second, Gholams are from the AOL. Mordeth was significantly later. Additionally, gholams purpose seems to be assasination. This does not tie into the evil of Aridol. Additionally, Gholam's are not vulnerable to channeling. If mordeth were a gholam, some of that resistance to channeling should have been transferred to Fain. this did not happen. There are multiple instances of channeling working on Fain. The most obvious being Moiraine in Shienar when he is being held and she is questioning him. Mordeth is something unique and that is not a gholam.
Aelfinn: 2004-02-05
Deth,
First of all, no-one would invent an assassin with such a bloody obvious difference as no shadow. On 'Top 5 Theoryland Picks' (ironic 'cause there's only 4) under links, go on WOTFAQ. Here's what it says.
1.7.3: Is Mordeth a Gholam?
[Leigh Butler, Steven Hillage]
Mat seems to think so. In WH, Noal and Mat watch the Ebou Dar gholam escape: "The creature stuck its hands into a hole left by a missing brick...Hands followed arms, and then the gholam's head went into the hole...The gholam's chest slithered through, its legs, and it was gone. Through an opening maybe the size of Mat's two hands." Noal comments that he's never seen anything like that before. "'I have,' Mat said hollowly. 'In Shadar Logoth.' Sometimes bits of his own memory he thought lost floated up out of nowhere, and that one had just surfaced, watching the gholam" [WH: 16, An Unexpected Encounter, 355].
Here's the bit Mat is thinking of: "As Mordeth dove through the air, he stretched out and thinned, like a tendril of smoke. As thin as a finger he struck a crack in the wall tiles and vanished into it" [TEOTW: 19, Shadow's Waiting, 240].
However, despite Mat's certainty and the similarity of the two descriptions, it doesn't seem possible that Mordeth is a gholam. There are lots of reasons why it's unlikely: If Mordeth is a gholam, how did he eat? It's not like people waltzed into SL on a regular basis, ripe for "harvesting". Gholam are physical beings - why didn't Mordeth have a shadow? And for that matter, how could a corporeal thing like a gholam have merged with Fain? Possession by a spirit is one thing, but how could a gholam-body merge with Fain's body? And why would it want to? Why hasn't the Ebou Dar gholam tried Mordeth's swelling-to-huge-proportions illusion that he did in TEOTW (to try and trap the boys in the treasure room) [Nevin Aiken]? If Mordeth was a gholam why couldn't he leave SL? Moiraine states, also in TEOTW, that no denizen of SL, including Mordeth, can cross her ward lines, but can't gholam melt OP flows with ease?
Additionally, the descriptions above are similar but not identical. Mordeth's evokes a smoky or misty image, while the gholam in WH (and in all other descriptions we've had), gives a far more liquid-like impression.
All these problems make the idea unlikely, but the reason why it's pretty much impossible is this: we know gholam were created by Aginor as a tool of the Dark One. If we posit that Mordeth is a gholam, then how do we reconcile this with the statement that SL evil did not come from the Dark One, but from the suspicion and hate of the people of Aridhol, who had been poisoned by Mordeth?
Mordeth, and Aridhol itself, are just as opposed to the Dark One as the forces of Light are, just in a bad way. Thus supposing that Mordeth is a gholam-- a weapon of the Dark One-- makes no sense.
Jammer: 2004-02-05
If a Gholam was either immune to the (fe)male half of the power, they would be kinda lame. Since you could argue that the chances of them dieing would be quite big, and their value quite small.
It wouldn't take much to kill a lone aes sedai anyway. A stab and the back and it's all over. So logic dictakes most people wouldn't roam around alone. Not being immune to the power would make them a kinda better halfman, but nothing more.
What i wonder about is this:
If they created Gholams and commanded them, and logic dictates they cannot be killed, why not have them just walk into a city and kill everyone there? A war wouldn't last long that way.
Anubis: 2004-02-05
hmm that is interesting. i was about to suggest shocklances... but it has encountered nothing that can hurt it. i donnow, why not send 6 into a city and just have them... rampage
dragonsceptor: 2004-02-06
One of the prime directives (sorry star trek fans) of the Gholam is to avoid detection by anyone other than its target. We see this multiple times in WH and CoT. If they were to take out a city, it would be pretty hard to remain anonymous. Their primary function is as an assasin. If everyone knows you are an assasain, you cannot be a very effective assasin. Especially now that the AS and AM have travelling. If you know a gholam is after you, plant a bunch of fodder around you, when you see the gholam, travel somewhere new and wait for them to catch up and then repeat. Being discovered would greatly lessen their effectiveness. Besides IIRC, the Gholam is not indestructible. I seem to remember it thinking to itself it had been a long time since anything had hurt it. This would imply it had been hurt before and hence, is not indestructible.
Illuminati: 2004-02-15
Answer to the "why not send them out on a rampage, the war wouldn't last long that way".
Someone or something could put these gholam into stasis boxes. If you send them out on a rampage, that someone or something would put them into stasis boxes a whole lot faster. Prolly the moment they showed their true face. And if you give people enough time they will find ways to kill anything, even a gholam. Their effectiveness relies solely on surprise attack.
As for killing a gholam. Now that they know that Mat's medallion can hurt it, just make a weapon with the same properties. It's not that people and soldiers can't hit the gholam, it's that it doesn't take wounds.
Anubis: 2004-02-15
got another reason for ya.
The forsaken were afraid of the gholem. So if they sent the Gholem on a rampage there is a chance that the rampage might not.... end. and that would be bad. I would imagine that they would be uneasy about using the gholem at all.
charliec: 2004-02-20
I've got to agree that a gholam immune to only one side of the source would be a little lame.
As for the rampage thing, I'm of the camp which reckons you could use balefire (or some other effects) to kill or damage them, so if they're out in the open too much some channeler's going to get lucky, or just start hitting it with buildings until they can make their escape...
Seperate issue, does anyone know a quote about their origins which estbalishes whether Aginor bred or built them?
For the control of Gholam's I reckon that some kind of talisman is the best idea yet, but it could equally well be that by their nature they are constrained to obey certain commands/people... kinda like old Padan Fain was driven to hunt down Rand, sort of by instinct, after his 'distillation' at Shayol Ghul.
It kinda fits with the Gholam's new idea of being released from constraints... it may be that the people who it would obey are getting killed/losing touch with it, so that it can begin to go its own way.
Blademaster: 2004-03-14
I believe someone said that it might be possible to control the Gholam with the true power. I don't think this is true, because of a passage in tPoD: when at the place where Moridin used the True Power "And a...feel...of something. Not the One Power, but something that made it...itch, if not quite in the same way..........The Gholam seemed to remember something that made it itch in that manner, yet so much of what it recalled was foggy and dim. The world had changed, as it seemed, in a blink of an eye." To me, this says that although it may have been CREATED with the True Power, the last time it had felt the True Power was in the Age of Legends. Thus, Sammael couldn't be using the True Power to control it, otherwise it would recall the 'itch' more recently.
stants: 2004-03-16
As I understand it a "golem," as a mythological creature, has its origins in Judaism. A Rabbi(s) created golems out of clay to perform tasks, protect the Jews from anti-semites, police the city, etc. The golem is animated by a some kind of mystic incantation-- a chant, a string of letters in a precise sequence, words of power, etc. The creator of the golem can then command it---or at least specify the way in which it is commanded (by placing written instructions on paper in its mouth, for example). In some versions of the story, the Rabbi decides to make the golem more 'human' and gives it a desire to eat--but the golem can't discren food from non-food and eats anything, including bricks. Golems are often described as powerful, indestructable, fluid (i.e. can squeeze through holes).
Are gholams and golems the same? I say no-- Rabbi's created golems to serve and protect, and they only became a danger if control over the goem was lost. Aginor created gholams as a weapon or tool of evil. Obviously a big difference. But the similarities are sufficient so that I would say gholams in WoT are modeled after or share characteristics with Judaistic golems. Both are thought by the average person to be "indestructable" Both are commandable and must follow explicit instructions. The spelling is remarkably similar. Both are strong and quick. Both yearn to be free from command. Both would wreak havoc if control is lost. Both are made.
And hence, it stands to reason, that both can be "unmade." The Rabbi created the golem using the true word of God, known only to a few rabbis, and "uncreated" it by removing the "true word" from the golem's forehead. Perhaps Aginor did the same---invoked the Dark One's true name (perhaps as yet unrevealed)--- and thus the gholam can be unmade by removing the Dark One's "true name" from the gholam. The only problem is that no one (at least no one not named Aginor) knows what this name is...and even if they did might be afraid to use it for fear of invoking the DO's wrath (much as the Rabbi were afraid of invoking the true name of god, for the use of such power might backfire).
This would explain the other forsaken's fear of the gholam. They might know how to unmake it---but the cure might be worse than the disease, for you would have to have a purty darn good reason to invoke the DO's name without his permission. Aginor perhaps had the DO's blessing in using his name to create the gholams.
And this gives another possible solution to the gholam problem. If one learns the method of control. If it is as simple as giving it a written instruction to "eat" (as was the case with the golems), then another could wrest the control of the gholam away. Problem is, no one in this age (other than Aginor, Sammael, and perhaps other forsaken) has the instruction booklets.
charliec: 2004-03-18
Good point Blademaster, I hadn't thought of that!
stants- have you read Terry Pratchett's 'feet of clay'? he's annoying but has some good ideas hidden in there...
I wonder: if the Gholam achieved freedom would it necessarily be evil? could it survive on animal blood? if so it'd have no need or desire to stick around people and plague them, but could disappear into the wilderness, or the blight... plenty to kill there!
heronblade: 2004-04-13
mankind has no need to kill anything to survive but it does anyway. the reason most people arn't veggi is because they never really consider the consiquences of their carniverous lifestyle. the gholam has been a 'maneater' as the norm since it was made (i assume) so why should it change now. we don't even know why it needs blod to start off with. there's no concrete evidence that it needs it to survive. it has no digestive tract that we know of, so maybe it just does it for kicks.
istarifire: 2004-04-14
Has anyone ever thought that gholams might actually be twisted finns. Mats medallion is Finn work and the gholams shrug off the OP in the exact same way The males may be the Aelfinn and the females the Eelfinn (i think i spelled that wrong but oh well) or vice versa
charliec: 2004-04-15
The finns have a different physical appearance to humans, so no, the Gholam are unlikely to be twisted finns.
heronblade: 2004-04-15
I don't remember an example of the finns shrugging off the power... they had a rule that it couldn't be used but they seemed intimidated enough by rands flaming sword. plus the fins are described as snake and fox like. they are pysically obviously not human. the gholams LOOK human.
Callandor: 2004-04-15
**Has anyone ever thought that gholams might actually be twisted finns. Mats medallion is Finn work and the gholams shrug off the OP in the exact same way The males may be the Aelfinn and the females the Eelfinn (i think i spelled that wrong but oh well) or vice versa**
No, they both work on the same principle, but not the exact same way. Also, we have seen male and femalne Aelfinn and Eelfinn. And finally, we have been told that Aginor created the gholam; they aren't anything "natural" (technically the Finn are (I guess ;))).
Anubis: 2004-04-17
the finns are wary of rands channeling in tear. this suggests that they can hold their own against channelers, but also that channeling presents a threat. not gholam like at all.
Darren: 2004-04-17
This is a regurgitated theory. I don't see why they get posted, but still, you might be right. Of course, if you're right, then Aginor (Halima is Balthamel, not Aginor, Callandor, but I digress) created half of the Gholam with a VERY intimate knowledge of saidar, and inevitably with saidar itself. True enough, the latter feat could have been achieved through linking, but I find the level of knowledge of saidar makes it unlikely.
charliec: 2004-04-18
Anubis- I think the finns were wary of Rand's channeling because they knew it was dangerous to them, but they still tried to get him out of their world because of the danger posed by having two such strong ta'veren there. There's no indication that they could "deal" with the channeling though.
heronblade: 2004-04-24
sneeking up behind him and clubbing him over the head is a way of dealing with him, but they didn't panic. they started to worry when the bells began to ring and the world fall apart. that kinda scared them. and while the text suggests this was bcause rand and co were in there at the same time, the finns hurry to get rid of them was delayed by the presence of the sword of power. therefore it can be assumed they were intimidated by either the power itself or the flames created by the power. a gholam would not be afraid of flames of power because it disolved a fireball in a previous text (sorry no quote)
Anubis: 2004-04-26
charlie.
theres no indication that the finns cant handle channelers either. and the fact that the finns make the rules and the aes sedai obey them or suffer speaks volumes.
rawsilk: 2004-05-06
well i think that it isn't really male or female. i think it is really what they were made to kill saidin channlers or saidar channlers. they can take what ever body they want.
(but then comes along the problem of birigette saying there were 3 male and 3 female)
Genghis: 2004-07-27
Maybe neither sadain or sadair can hurt the gholams, but the True Power can. This would mean that they were being commanded by either Ishy/Moridin or possibly Shaidar Haran. Or maybe im just crazy.
: 2004-07-28
Ok, this is my first post so please bear with me.
Gholams are immune to both halves of the One Power just like Mat's medailon. They were made using BOTH the One Power and True Power.
The gholam states that it has never encountered anything that could harm it, so I believe that the True Power has never been used agianst it. My reason for thinking the True Power can hurt it is because in the first POV of the gholam felt an "itch" of somthing it did not know. That was the residue of Ishy using the True Power while watching the women leave and unravel the gateway.
Callandor: 2004-07-28
**Maybe neither sadain or sadair can hurt the gholams, but the True Power can. This would mean that they were being commanded by either Ishy/Moridin or possibly Shaidar Haran. Or maybe im just crazy.**
Sammael sent the gholam that went to Ebou Dar.
charliec: 2004-07-29
**Maybe neither sadain or sadair can hurt the gholams, but the True Power can. This would mean that they were being commanded by either Ishy/Moridin or possibly Shaidar Haran. Or maybe im just crazy. **
Except that the Gholam thinks that it hasn't encountered anything that can harm it in a long time, which suggests that it isn't being commanded through fear and pain. Besides, it doesn't seem too familiar with the true power when it senses it in Ebou Dar.
Callandor: 2004-07-30
**how do we know that Sammael sent the Gholam?**
1. Sammael tells Carridin he will send someone to take care of the Aes Sedai.
2. The gholam says "He wants you dead as much as he wants her."
3. Sammael is the only one we know of that reassured a Darkfriend who was trying to find the Bowl, knew of Mat being there, and knew of Elayne being there.
Kinda difficult for it be someone else that did it.
Anubis: 2004-07-31
we dont, its just fairly strongly implied. sammeal hints to grendal that he found somthing else in a stasis box. gholam makes a touch of sense.