ew Spring and the Dark Prophecy- what really happened.
by Mairashda: 2003-01-09 | Not yet rated
"The man who channels stands alone.
He gives his friends for sacrifice.
Two roads before him, one to death beyond dying, one to life eternal.
Which will he chose. Which will he chose.
What hand shelters? What hand slays?
Blood calls blood, etc..."
-From the Dark Prophecy (tGH, Ch.7 pp.104ff)
Some people still appear to think that the events pictured in "New Spring", that "vileness right after the Aiel War", were the Black Ajah's attempt at killing men who might be able to channel, might be the Dragon Reborn.
But what kind of people did they go after? Men who were reputed to be extraordinary lucky...oh, and a blacksmith, turned successful local politician.
It is my opinion that the Black Ajah were not after the Dragon reborn but his two ta'veren friends (an extremely lucky man...and a blacksmith.) because those two are -as mentioned in the dark prophecy- the main hinderance on his way to the Shadow (there might be more that one dark prophecy, even one that mentions the other ta'veren's attributes....).
...mh, that's it really.
You cannot rate theories without first logging in. Please
log in.
1
Tamyrlin: 2003-01-09
So you think that the DO knew, not only about the DR, but also that there would be friends of his that would be almost as or just as important? They were looking for a blacksmith and lucky man in New Spring? Do you have those quotes?
2
pointyman: 2003-01-09
I remember those quotes... but I just took it to be the Black Ajah looking for people who exhibited Taveren luck... or even just had things go their way a lot.. i.e. a bit of subconscious channelling. I did think about the blacksmith thing.... but why would Perrin be identified solely by being a blacksmith? He hasn't exactly done a lot of it recently, has he? More likely he would be described as a wolfbrother.
Another thing I remember from New Spring is the prescence of a fairly strong Taveren somewhere in the background, as there is a typical passage (e.g about a child falling 100 feet and walking away without a scratch) to indicate one is present. But do we know who? I wonder... could it be a Taveren for the Dark? Is there any reason why a DF could not be Taveren?
3
Mairashda: 2003-01-09
I do believe that as opposed to the karaethon cycle, the dark prophecies (where they come from being something entirely different- inspired by the dark one or not...), explicitly mention the three ta'veren, not only the Dragon Reborn. unfortunately the only part of the dark prophecies known to us only hints at this... however the events in new Spring, (to me )strongly suggest this. and it does rather make sense, does it not? the dragon reborn may be turned to the shadow... the other two, however, cannot channel so they must be done away with.
the blacksmith is mentioned in New Spring (legends3) on p.102: "Everybody's talking about a young blacksmith who died of a broken neck a couple of nights ago. Nobody expected much of him, but this last month or so he turned into quite a speaker."
the other men who are killed are characterized as lucky, and Lan, who they are after als well, is supposedly the "luckiest man alive"
4
Alaric: 2003-01-12
I personally haven't read New Spring (can't find it in any of the book stores around me), however we do know that the DO considers Mat and Perrin to be important. I don't remember the exact pages, but at one point in tEotW, Ishy draws Mat and Perrin into Tel'aran'rhiod (at different times) and talks to both. On the little table he has in the room, there is a statue indicating each one (what the statue depicts is dependant on which of the three ta'veren are looking at it). And Mat is often referred to as the Trickster or Gambler by the Shadow (see the Prologue of tGH [I think its tGH, when there is that meeting of all the Darkfriends and Ishy gives them all visions and orders]) and Perrin as the Blacksmith. Anyways, just offering up evidence from the actual series that agrees.
5
Mairashda: 2003-01-13
Having read CoT I now know that the Karaethon Cycle at least mentions Mat (CoT Ch.28, p.616)... so why shouldn't the Dark Prophecies?
6
pointyman: 2003-01-13
The details of Mat being a gambler and Perrin a blacksmith could just have easily been gleaned via the DO's own hound, Padan Fain. Doubtless he knew Rand was a shepherd, Perrin a blacksmith, and perhaps he saw Mat gambling with the merchant's guards, or playing practical jokes.
What was the context when Mat was mentioned in the Karaethon Cycle? It was Noal's recitation, I just can't recall it.
7
Mairashda: 2003-01-14
Noal had been trying to remember this for quite some time, when Mats glaring at him or maybe Olver telling about Shara triggers something in his memory.
8
Nateosis: 2003-02-10
I am not sure exactly where, but somewhere in the tEoTW, one of the three taveren guys picks up his corresponding statue in the dream, and ishy says something like "so thats which one you are" meaning the shadow knew of the three beforehand, just not which is which. . .so there had to have been some kind of dark prophetic predictions about them, right?
9
Dragons Shadow: 2003-02-24
The shadow knew about the three because Fain had narrowed it down to those three.
10
araqyl: 2003-05-21
Nateosis, it's Mat who picks up his own figure and is recognised by Ishamael.
I agree with Dragons Shadow that it was from knowledge gleaned by DF on the ground - which is why the figures were so crude. As I understand it Ishamael could find them to drag into TAR because they were all so strongly Ta'veren, but couldn't tell them apart.
11
Korell: 2003-05-21
To add part of the reason they were all suspect was because they were all around the same age born within a short time of each other that is why Moiraine did not know wich was wich to start off with but she knew them for Ta'Varen i still belive that Mat and Perrin are new heros and that Rand is the only important one who was actually reborn from a previous hero but the prophicies do open a door to much interpritation..i need to read New Spring and the entire series again i am getting ready to start that soon heh
12
Mairashda: 2004-01-10
well, the novel plants some new evidence in favor of this theory:
the blacksmith is mentioned some more, and in the epilogue Siuan is making some cryptic remarks as to lucky men and a blacksmith who rose suddenly- part of the prophecies? mat at least is mentioned in the cycle, perrin must be in there somewhere as well...
oh, and extremely unlikely things happenening- like somebody falling a very long distance, yet surviving without a scratch or somebody suddenly becoming a convincig orator and successful politician sound more like ta'veren at work than channeling, especially the kind of channeling an untrained wilder (most wilders do have simple tricks: eavesdropping, making somebody kiss you or other weaves akin to compulsion)could manage on his first attempt.
oh, and: Diryk ist eight years old! thats way to young for him to be able to channel but not too young for a ta'veren to influence chance.
13
JollyW89: 2005-03-19
I think That the DO knew that there would be 3 ta'veren, 1 dragon, 1 lucky and one wolf brother. In 1 of the dreams there are clay figures of each of them .accedently one of then revels who he is and then that figure has his face. How would the DO haknow of ther powerrs but not who they were, if not that it is always how it happen in the pattern. I mean we have never heard the story of the last Dragon reborn so there might always be 3 with these powers, and he just needed to know wich one was which so he could make his plans.
(im not sure but by this piont did Perrin know he is a wolf brother?)
14
Jiana: 2005-09-29
Does anyone have any ideas as to who wrote the Dark Prophecy? This has probably been discussed at length on the message boards, but as I've said before, I seem to have trouble getting into them, and so can't take part in those discussions. Which is probably how I end up out of the loop on some things. :)
On a recent re-read of TGH, I second-guessed some of my first intuitions as to who released Fain, and who wrote the dark prophecy on the walls. At first I thought it was a Myrddraal wrote the prophecy, and for some reason didn't really give much thought to who released Fain. Just figured it was some DF, maybe Ingtar. But then the first few lines of the prophecy caught my eye. "Daugther of the Night, she walks again...her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still." Is it possible that Lanfear is the one who released Fain, and then Fain wrote the prophecy?
15
silverwolf: 2005-09-30
In the Q&A on tor.com, RJ confirms that a myrdraal wrote the prophecy in TGH on the walls of the dungeon at Fal Dara. Also, he confirms that Ingtar released Fain (that might be in an interview rather than the Q&A...I don't remember).
16
JakOShadows: 2005-09-30
Jiana: I don't know what the general concensus is, but for possible forsaken Lanfear is the only one we actively see in all the events. But I lean more towards Fain or a myrrdael. He seems to be a powerful and knowledgeable person as far as DF are concerned, so it is possible.
17
Jiana: 2005-09-30
I appreciate the information. Thanks, guys, for clearing that up. :)
