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Home | Index | Archives | Help
he Creator, Dark One, and Time
by Elder Haman: 2003-01-14 | Not yet rated
Previous Categories: Miscellaneous Theories
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2003-01-15
What can't the creator touch Time? He made everything. Sometimes the DO is painted as the polar opposite...but obviously he isn't because he is weaker and has been imprisoned and will be imprisoned Age after Age. The Creator made everything, so I am not sure why it would break the Wheel if he touched the Pattern? Does it say this somewhere, or are you making this assumption based on the idea that the DO would, therefore the Creator would?
Callandor: 2003-01-16
Get the big white book (the Guide) out if you have it. Flip to page 14 and 15.
There you will find: "The only known forces outside the Wheel and the Pattern are the Creator, who shaped the Wheel, the One Power that drives it-as well as the plan for the Great Pattern- and the Dark One, who was imprisioned outside the pattern by the Creator at the moment of creation. No one inside and of the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern."
So, if you have any beliefs that the DO is imprision in the Wheel, can be killed, or anything like that: throw them out.
The DO wouldn't be driven to remake the pattern in his own image if he was a part of it because he couldn't do it.
Elan Morin Tedronai: 2003-01-17
In response to the statement that neither the DO or the C is "within time" - in LoC the DO states :
"HE SERVED WELL, YET EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME."
This in reference to Rahvin being killed by balefire.
Wording may not be correct as the book is not in front of me.
Tamyrlin: 2003-01-17
The most likely interpretation, Elan, is that the DO is saying he can't go back in time to retrieve that soul, therefore it is lost to him.
Callandor: 2003-01-17
Yes Tam. The DO cant step out of time to bring back balefired souls because they are removed from the pattern.
When a person is balefired its like putting a hair to a candle. When you do that the hair curls up and gets burned away. The stronger the balefire the farther back the burning (this is shown numerous times from when Rand balefires the dogs to save Mat from getting killed, about a min or two, to when he balefires Ravhin, going from when Mat and others are dead to when they are all back and in battle, about 30-45 mins).
So yes the DO cant step outside time in order to return souls burned out of the pattern and bring them back. That is most likely the **final death**.
Elder Haman: 2003-01-17
I am re-reading the series, but it's going to take a while because I'm busy trying to find a wife. I'll try to find the references for you, but I thought I better respond first as it will take a while. I'll post the refs as I find them. (Most are in Eye of the World, and the Great Hunt, the rest come from the ponderings of Herid Fel, Ishmael, and Verin).
First, Tamyrlin, I am 90% sure that it is explicitly stated that if the Creator touched time the Wheel would shatter. If not, it is very strongly implied. This is RJ's solution to the old theological puzzle- Three facts: God is all powerful, God is all good, Evil/Suffering is real- How can all three be true? Some religions abandon one of these, others (such as Christianity/Judaism/Islam( defend all three using various justifications- Agency/Sin/We don't understand God's plan. RJ's solution is attached to the first proposal, the Creator is all powerful... but- if uses his power we will all cease to exist, (Wheel of Time is broken).
Elder Haman: 2003-01-17
Second, I think there is some confusion over where I'm placing the Dark One. You are correct Callandor, The Dark One is not in the pattern or time, or inside the Wheel itself. However he is "inside" the Wheel in the sense that The Dark One is contained by the Wheel. Draw a wheel on a piece of paper, and in the middle is the Dark One, he's not in the Wheel, but he is imprisoned by it.
The Wheel of Time is the Dark One's prison.
This is why he must "kill time" or "break the Wheel" as Ishmael keeps saying. (The poor Forsaken, they think they're going to rule the world, but in fact, if they win, the world will be destroyed. The lesson? Never make a deal with anyone called the Father of Lies- he cheats. Ishmael knows what's going on, but he's insane.)
I have a theory based on this. Since the Dark One is in the center of the Wheel of Time then the Dark One is present at all times, or points on the Wheel of Time. (That would apply to the Creator as well, except He's on the outside). This fits with the references to the Dark One being "outside time." I think it's refering to the above- All times are before the Dark One at once because he is not within time. I think the Prelude of The Great Hunt refers to this when Ishmael says the Day of Return is "soon" and goes on to say "in this or in another Age." I think that to the Dark One, the battle to escape is on going in every Age simultainously. Thus he will escape "soon" but that may be in a different Age.
Elder Haman: 2003-01-17
Comparison of references to "the Wheel" with references to "the Pattern."
I think most of the above can also be applied to the Pattern. The Wheel of Time and the Pattern are different things, but sometimes they are used interchangably, (maybe you can help define the differances more concretely). Of course the Wheel weaves the Pattern, but references to the Dark One's prison use both terms. I believe one can concieve of the Wheel of Time weaving the Pattern, which is the Dark One's prison. (Thus it is more exact to say the Pattern is the Dark One's prison, but you could also refer to the Wheel as his prison because it's the Wheel's weaving that imprisons him.)
The key references are those refering to the Dark One "touching" the Pattern, presumably by touching the Wheel, and references to the Bore. The Bore is described as "a thinness in the Pattern." It was designed to allow access to the "True Power."
Imagine a three dimensional, (I know it's not three dimensional, but this will allow us to envision a simple model that we can extrapolate from), woven ball with a hollow center. Place the Dark One inside the center of that ball and you can see how the Pattern imprisions him. Notice also that in the weaving of this hollow ball pattern, there are certain points where many threads cross each other. The key points if you wish. Cutting one thread will not seriously weaken the weaving, except at that key point. Those points would be both the focus of any attempt to escape, and the strongest points on the ball, (because all the threads are swirling around them).
Consider how this can apply both to references to ta'varen and the weaving of the Age Lace. There are certain points of time, (or points on the Wheel), where the Dark One has the greatest chance to escape. Ta'varen are the key threads that strengthen the Pattern.
Now this is where you and I might disagree Callandor. I believe that people (in RJ's world) have free choice, ie the threads can choose where they are woven. Loial's comments suggest this. Of course the surronding threads (people) have a great deal of influence on your choices, so most people can't change much about what happens to them. (Just how they respond). Most of the time the Pattern absorbs these choices and continues on. However, a ta'varen affects all the other threads around him. He has fewer choices, but his choices are far more important. Now his choices can't destroy the Wheel- but his choices definately changes the Pattern.
How do I reconcile this with the Great White Book? (as sited above)I suppose I could embrace the Goat, but I won't. Instead I think emphasis should be placed on the word destiny, since Loial's comments show that even non-ta'varen can change the Pattern (just not very much). So I believe that people within the Pattern can change the Pattern, but not its ultimate destiny. However, people can change the Pattern enough so that the Dark One could change Pattern's destiny. Thus the vast importance of the Last Battle, ie the future is not yet decided.
Now- lets extrapolate from our simple three dimensional model to multi dimensional. This could be seen as extension to all the Ages, but I think the more interesting concept is the mirror worlds. Consider Verin's comments refering to the Wheel weaving a Pattern from the worlds, this would also be part of of the Dark One's prison, fitting in nicely with Verin's statement that the Dark One is imprisioned in all the worlds, and that if he escapes in one he escapes in all. Just as in the three dimensional model, there are certain points where the several threads (worlds) cross, including some points where many worlds cross. Those points are where the Portal Stones are. Again there would be certain threads (worlds) that are key in maintaining the Pattern's strength. Obviously "Randland" (the real world) is the key. That's why the Dark One is focusing his attack there and not in a mirror world.
Elder Haman: 2003-01-17
Balefire-
The fact that the Dark One can not "re-birth" those killed by balefire strongly impies that the soul itself was destroyed. Not sent off to await being spun out again, but destroyed. (There have been other comments that give this impression). This implies that unborn souls may be part of the Pattern. The alternative is that non-balefired threads hangout somewhere waiting to be reborn... somewhere like the World of Dreams? More on that in a minute. The burning of threads might weaken the Pattern, so the Dark One would like it if balefire is used so much that the Pattern unraveled- then he would be free.
I dont think the "YET EVEN I CAN NOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME" refers to being unable to go back in time. Its a reference to his imprisonment by time, thus his anger at the fact, (I don't think he's angry that he can't save Rahivn, I don't think the Dark One cares what happens to his servants).
Now, back to the World of Dreams/Unseen World. We know from Verin that this place exists in all worlds. She also says there is one Creator and one Dark One for all the worlds. From implication, the World of Dreams is the same place for all the mirror worlds. Now the Creator and the Dark One are both outside time, (though on different sides of the Wheel). This suggests that thw World of Dreams may also be outside time- explaining why "time moves differently." (Note this would allow Oliver to be Gaidal Cain). However, other things such as reflections of the real world changing with time implies the oppisite. (BTW ever notice that Egwene appears to see changes in the reflection of the Two Rivers before the changes are made? It is possible to reconcile the differences, but it's tricky). My theory is that the World of Dreams is connecting place between time and non-time. Thus that is were souls go to await rebirth. I also think that's how the Creator inflences the Pattern, he selects which souls, (particularly the Heros), are spun out, where, and when. This is also where the Dark One searchs for and kinds the dead and brings them back to life (in new bodies), remember he is The Lord of the Grave. Notice that the Creator and the Dark One's actions are very similar, except that the Dark One steals other souls bodies for the souls he want to grant rebirth. The World of Dreams is the spool that contains the threads that are not yet woven into the Pattern but can be. Souls that are balefired are burnt threads and thus not there. Notice that balefire can even burn away reflections in the World of Dreams.
Callandor: 2003-01-19
The threads are burnt yes. So the DO cant go back to the time when the thread was there and retrieve it like if a Forsaken just died like how Arignor and Bethelmal died.
That is what is meant by "EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE TIME."
And he does care what happens to his servents because if he just wasted the Forsaken WHY would he bring them back? How would he get free without the influences of the freed Forsaken on the world? Simple answer: he couldn't.
Darren: 2003-01-19
He brings them back to punish them for failure, and because he takes promises made to him seriously. The "chosen" are sworn servants in aeternam. Whether he has any use for them not is almost irrelevant. Every resurrection of a slain forsaken that has occurred in the texts has been a double-edged sword. Even touching the True Power, the DO's "Gift," is like a drug dealer's first "gift." The TP is Aes Sedai crack.
As to the Even I can't step... line, it was made directly in response to Rahvin's death, and how he could not be resurrected. His response may well be tempered by moodiness at his imprisonment, but balefire is perenially explained as snuffing out the flame "the instant BEFORE it happened," which is to say as a temporal issue OUTSIDE of time.
Elder Haman: 2003-01-25
I still don't think the quote is referring to the Dark One being unable to go back in time. It's refering to his inability to step "OUTSIDE" of time. However, there are several other references to the Dark One already being outside of time. (As Callandor pointed out in his first reply).
I think the problem here is the inexactness of the English language. I think the statements that the Dark One is outside the Wheel of Time, and the quote from the Dark One "EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME" are refering to two different concepts. (English has this problem of the same word meaning different things).
I think the first reference to the Dark One being outside of time has been explained in my previous posts.
The second reference (the quote) refers to the Dark One's imprisionment by the Wheel of Time, which somehow prevents him from ressurecting Rahvin.
I don't think the ability to travel in time, or time location has anything to do with it. That's precisely the power of balefire. When someone dies, their 'thread' is not cut, (at least not in the balefire sense), that soul continues to exist and goes somewhere to await rebirth, (T'A'R probably). Balefire destroys the soul completely.
Therefore it doesn't matter that the Dark One can 'go back in time.' (I think the Dark One is chronologically omni-present, therefore there is no 'travelling through time'). The Dark One can touch Rahvin's thread in the past, but he can't weave it into the future because there is no future, (for Rahvin's thread that is). Rahvin's thread is burned, it cannot be extended. That's why balefire is so dangerous.
You seem to be thinking that the Dark One rebirths people by snatching them up out of the Pattern and re-inserting them later. I don't think the Pattern works that way. Each soul is a thread, extending through time. A life is not at a finite point on that thread, it is the thread. Pulling a thread out would completly undo that whole life (and previous lives), and every other action that resulted from those lives.
Elder Haman: 2003-01-25
Okay, this is a long one, and a bit roundabout, but important (IMO).
The Dark One's Plans to Escape
(or, Why This Theory Is Important)
This concept of the Pattern as being the Dark One's prison is vital to the understanding of his attemps to escape. The keys to escaping are the intersection points (see reply above- "Comparision...") We have a very confusing fact that the Dark One has repeatedly not killed Rand, (or even help him), when Rand is the Champion of the Light.
Evidence:
1) New Spring (This is Mairashda's Theory- thankyou for this idea): "Some people still appear to think that the events pictured in "New Spring", that "vileness right after the Aiel War", were the Black Ajah's attempt at killing men who might be able to channel, might be the Dragon Reborn. But what kind of people did they go after? Men who were reputed to be extraordinary lucky...oh, and a blacksmith, turned successful local politician. It is my opinion that the Black Ajah were not after the Dragon reborn but his two ta'veren friends (an extremely lucky man...and a blacksmith.)" - Mairashda, Theory #931
2) Statements of Ishmael: Ishmael has repeatedly tried to turn Rand to the Shadow instead of killing him. Once Ishmael said the Dark One would like to convert the Champion of Light almost as much as he would like to break free.
3) The focus on eliminating Rand's companions, but not Rand: Start's in EotW- attempts to kill Mat- use of non-lethal weapons by Trollocs. TGH- Why the importance of getting rid of Nynaeve and Egwene? (Maybe because they might help Rand cleanse saidin?) TDR- The main focus is on killing Mat and Perrin- Until Rand is about to take Callandor- then Ishmael desperatly tries to kill Rand.
4) Orders by the Dark One to protect Rand: TSR- Graendal sends Trollocs to save Rand- by order of the Dark One. Later the Dark One orders the Forsaken to not attack Rand. Moridin(Ishmael) saves Rand from Sammuel in Shadar Logoth!
Conflicts: TGH- Did Ishmael try to kill Rand at the end of TGH? TDR- Ishmael trys to kill Rand- after Rand reached for Callandor. WH- Moridin orders all the Forsaken to kill Rand while he is cleansing saidin.
An explanation can be found in Ishmael/Moridin's thoughts about the Fisher. He lists three ways to win- and all depend on the Fisher's position.
1) Control the Fisher directly: This corelates with the attempts to turn Rand to the Shadow and make him the Champion of the Dark. (Maybe Ishmael is not the Campion of the Dark- maybe there isn't one right now).
2) Force the Fisher to move into a losing position: This deals with the attempts to manipulate what Rand is doing- ala Fain and his raising of the Two Rivers. Maybe Lanfear's attempt to seduce Rand also fits into this, (she was of course working to control the Fisher to her advantage, not the Dark One's).
3) Kill the Fisher, leading to a war of attrition: Ishmael says this is an act of desperation- and the only time he tried it he lost- badly.
The Dark One would prefer option #1, but even this doesn't always mean succes. (RJ say the Champion for the Light has become the Champion of the Dark in the past, but that those conflicts have always ended in a draw). Since Rand is being stubborn, the Dark One has resorted to option #2. The Dark One only resorts to #3 as a last resort- When Rand reaches for Callandor, and when Rand cleanses saidin. Why are these times so important?
Now is when we get back to the Pattern. The Pattern is the Dark One's prison and the keys to escaping are the intersection points. The Drilling of the Bore created "a thinness in the Pattern." To reseal the Dark One the Pattern will need to be re-woven. What is the Pattern? Threads of souls (people) are woven together (interact) to create a pattern (actual events). The Prophecies are the guide to what events need to occur to weave the Pattern correctly. The Dark One want to force the Wheel to weave a Pattern that breaks open his prison and frees him. How is he going to control the Wheel?
Ta'veren are the key threads that force all the others into the correct pattern. If the Dark One can control the Fisher (Rand), by either method #1 or #2, he can force the Pattern into opening his prison. However, the Dark One has/had a lot of advantages- the taint on saidin, belief that Rand was a false Dragon- and he doesn't want to lose these key advantages. Therefore he is willing to kill the Fisher(Rand) and risk the war of attrition if it means he can maintain these advantages for the next turning of the Wheel (his next chance to escape).
Well that was along one- but it think it shows why the nature of the Dark One's prison is so important.
isamu: 2003-01-28
Kiserai ti Wansho hei, Elder Haman. It seems we think very much alike, for I have thought as you do about these metaphysical issues for some time (since we first saw Moridin and were shown his PoV). However, I've always thought the Pattern itself as the DO's prison to be the most likely scenerio. I never threw myself 100% behind this theory because there just is not enough evidence. At the moment of Creation, the Creator bound the DO, thus the first spinning of the Wheel would have been to imprison the DO. This would explain the "thin" spots like Shayol Ghul that allow the DO to exert influence.
It's hard to invision, but you theory that the Wheel is the DO's prison appeals to me more. It's hard to reconcile the "thin" spots and other thngs mentioned about the DO and its abilities, but that's probably because I'm thinking of the Wheel and the Pattern too literally and not metaphorically enough.
Also, part of your theory about the DO existing at all times simultaneously is evidence for and evidenced by the existence of the DO in all Mirror Worlds.
I agree with your assertion that balefire prevents the DO from raising someone because the DO cannot step outside of time. However, it has nothing to do with the Soul being destroyed. I'll have to do some digging, but RJ has said that the Soul (atman in the Hindu belief, the unchanging essence that is reborn) is not destroyed by balefire. That Soul can still be reborn. This, I think, actually lends support to the Wheel being the DO's prison and its inability to step outside of time. Rahvin's "atman" still exists, and is now floating around wherever souls go to await rebirth. However, Rahvin did not die now, he died 30 minutes ago, and the past is not reality, it cannot be touched because it is gone, over, done. The DO is not bound by time, thus eternalness, but neither can the DO touch or influence time, it cannot step outside the present to go back and retrieve a soul.
Callandor: 2003-01-28
"So if a balefired person can be reborn, why can't the DO recycle a Forsaken that's been killed by balefire?
The real question being asked here is: what is the difference between the soul of a Forsaken killed by ordinary means and the soul of one killed by balefire? Timothy Itnyre explains:
"The only difference is that the Forsaken killed by balefire dies in the past; at the moment of contact with the balefire, they are already dead and their soul has gone on to wherever souls go when you're dead. In a normal death, the Forsaken's soul departs at the moment of death. The only difference then is the timing of the soul's departure. This would indicate that the Dark One's inability to resurrect balefired souls has to do with the timing rather than actual physical properties of balefire. In LOC, the Dark One laments his inability to resurrect Rahvin: '"RAHVIN DEAD IN HIS PRIDE. HE SERVED WELL, YET EVEN I CANNOT SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE. EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME"' [LOC: Prologue, The First Message, 15].
"The crucial clue is in the last line where the Dark One says that he cannot step outside of time. The Dark One must claim the Forsaken's soul before it goes off to the afterlife; in the case of a balefire victim, the Dark One would have to go into the past to get the soul. Since the Dark One cannot step outside of time, he cannot save those souls. Therefore, balefire prevents the Dark One from claiming souls."
(Note: This all comes directly from the WOTFAQ on the subject of how Balefire works.)
Tamyrlin: 2003-01-28
Before everyone else points this out, the WOTFAQ is one third correct, one third partially correct, and one third pure crap (per Jordan's words). Now, I tend to agree with most of what this answer says regarding Balefire, although it ignores an obvious point. The DO cannot just take any soul that dies a normal, non-balefire death. He can't touch any or all souls. In fact, he truly is not a Lord of the Grave nor was it really Rand's mother in TEOTW. What I am saying is, the Forsaken are DIFFERENT than the rest. Why? Simply, because the DO has attached himself to the Forsaken. That attachment (warning: Tamyrlin's pet theory) is what enables the DO to resurrect the Forsaken. Beyond the discussion of traveling through time, balefire permanently destroys the connection the DO has with the Forsaken, and since he cannot go back in time, he cannot transmigrate a soul that is disconnected from him. The philosophical answer that isn't being addressed is the fact that the soul in question, although balefired, still exists, and if their connection has not also been destroyed as I mentioned, would still be linked to the DO, even if that person's thread had been burned out. Just some thoughts.
Dedicated: 2003-01-28
So Tam, are you saying that the Forsaken are the only souls the DO has the ability to manipulate and purely because of his attachment to them? Oh yeah this is more of a question, but could you update me one what your theory is regarding what exactly those black lines do? I've heard everything from a taint-siphoning mechanism to a TP connection and I'm unsure myself.
Tamyrlin: 2003-01-28
I don't want to drastically change the subject of this theory, so I will post a quick synopsis and give you some links to view more detailed discussion.
Summary of Tamyrlin's Black Cord Theory: As Rhavin says, the Forsaken make oaths and bonds with the DO. Also, as Rhavin says, those bonds protect them from the taint. The soul of each forsaken (similar to the attachment of one power to each channeler) is attached (as Rand says to Asmodean in Rhuidean) to the DO. I believe this attachment to have various purposes. First, it allows the Forsaken to channel the TP. It filtered the tainted one power. It extends the life of the physical body the soul inhabits. And lastly, it enables the DO, at the death of the body, to retain the souls of those he is attached to and it allows him to transmigrate those souls into new bodies. Here are some links to discussion. Please do not respond to my theory here. I would be happy to discuss it on the message board, through email (tamyrlin@theoryland.com), and possibly I will post it again since my last one is now in the archives (if I remember correctly).
Tamyrlin's Chronicles - http://www.theoryland.com/chronicles.php?user=tamyrlin&page=d
Message Board
(This is found in an archived board, please do not post any responses here.)
http://pub14.ezboard.com/ftheorylandfrm5.showMessage?topicID=416.topic
Dragons Shadow: 2003-02-06
As I see it, there are two possibilities being discussed here.
ONE:
The D.O. is imprisoned by the pattern.
TWO:
The D.O. is imprisoned seperate from the pattern.
Now, (remember that the pattern is comprised of threads (souls) of all the living people) if theory ONE is true AND balefire DESTROYS the soul and not just the life of the soul, the D.O. could escape by simply making his chosen use balefire in extreme amounts - thus destroying the very stuff the pattern (and the Prison) is made from. However, even the shadow - in the war of power - feared to use balefire. (Perhaps this is because the D.O. cannot re-create the pattern, he can only corrupt the existing pattern.) I think that this shows that if theory ONE is correct, Balefire cannot destroy the soul - it simply creates a temporal effect of removing the soul from the pattern IN THE PAST. So, to escape from his prison, he would have to destroy a large percentage of the world's population with balefire. In effect, creating a *hole* in the pattern. His actions do not seem to support this goal. From this line of reasoning, I conclude that the pattern is NOT the Prison.
If option TWO is correct, the BORE would have to be a wormhole of sorts across a *weakness in the pattern* to a seperate universe where seperate rules apply. This idea WAS introduced in the books. RJ refered to these as "vacuoles" or bubbles in the flow of time. If this is true then balefire would have no effect on the DO or his Prison but it WOULD have an effect on his physical power in the world. Thus Rhavin would be seperated from the power of the DO by the balefire and his soul would be free to return to the flow of time. Rhavin will be reborn WHEN the wheel wills and not when the D.O. wills.
I think that the key to the eventual defeat of the D.O. is to find the link that keeps this vacuole fixed to the pattern. If that link was broken then the vacuole would break free and drift away from the pattern until it was discovered again in the next turning of the wheel. OF the living, ONLY Lanfear/Cyndane knows how this link was established. She will definately play a LARGE part in the eventual defeat of the D.O. (She has motivation - her mindtrap is powered with the TP whicw would be cut off if the vacuole was closed.)
I appologise if this is not very clear. I will post further after reading any response to this.
jason wolfbrother: 2003-02-06
This actually makes a bit more sense than other theories I have read. I have just one question. If the DO's prison is a vacuole then what is keeping it from closing up and breaking away from the Pattern now. Remember vacuoles are extremely unstable and were known to close up without any warning or for any known reason. I don't think the Creator would imprison the DO someplace that was that unpredictable.
Elder Haman: 2003-02-06
An interesting theory Tamrylin. If it's correct then maybe balefire does just break the bands connecting the Dark One and the Forsaken.
Do you think that perhaps there is a similar "bond" for the Creator's servants. Such as being "bound to the Wheel to be spun out" as needed? (ie The Heros of the Horn). If a Hero of the Horn was balefired, would they lose their connection to the Horn?
I don't think that's how balefire works though. I think balefire destroys the soul. This would explain why the Dark One doesn't want balefire to be overused despite being imprisoned by the Pattern. If the Dark One is imprisoned by the Pattern, then one would think that the Dark One would be happy to balefire a hole out of his prison. However, we also know that the Dark One plans to remake the Pattern in his image. Thus to escape the Dark One must destroy the Pattern, but he doesn't want to destroy the substance the Pattern is made from (souls/threads). Otherwise what would the Dark One use to remake the Pattern into a prison for the Creator?
Callandor: 2003-02-06
I'm not sure if someone already said this or not if they did Im sorry for repeating. But balefire destroys the soul before the person gets balefired. But eventually the soul is put back into the pattern. I just wonder if a Hero in the flesh (like Bridgette) would be reborn still as a Hero?
If not in the flesh, thats easy. The OP doesnt touch em so not balefire working on them.
Callandor: 2003-02-06
I am a VERY firm believer in the idea that the DO is imprisoned OUTSIDE of the Wheel and hence outside of the Pattern (not imprisoned by it). But just a quick question about the DO being imprisoned by the Pattern: how do the Seals work then?
What are they re-enforcing certain threads in the Pattern? Are they just acting as permenant Ta Veren and warping the Pattern around them (that would be kinda neat and might give a theory to why Rand almost smashed the Seal when Taim gave it to him)? Or what?
Elder Haman: 2003-02-07
Those are interesting ideas Callandor. I guess I allways thought of the seals as a patch over the hole/Bore in the pattern. In other words the seals don't strengthen the Pattern or the threads around the bore. Instead it covers them with a patch that is attached to those threads further away from the Bore which are still strong.
Your first first suggestion sounds similar to some form of darning that binds the "worn" threads back together. I don't think this fits with the images I get from the book. However, channeling is often refered to as "weaving." Perhaps Saidan is the thread being used to darn the bare spot and the 'seals' are just "the focus points" for this weaving and is what holds the darning in place.
Your second idea is really interesting. I had never thought of it, but I really like, (don't know if I agree though). I think the seals might operate similar to Ta'veren, but more likely they are related to your first suggestion. As ta'veren are to Pattern threads so the the seals are to the Saidan threads. Those were some good thoughts. I think this subject may deserve it's own theory.
Great Lord of the Dark: 2003-03-05
Some of my thoughts on all these posts (quotes are approximate)...
1. "Would you use the balefire in my service Demandred?" (Lord of Chaos)I believe the plan is to balefire the seals and release the Great Lord "half an hour ago" so that he's had that long to strike at the world before Rand can interfere. Why ask otherwise?
2. The Great Lord did not focus his attention on Rand's world alone. In fact, he has won in every mirror world "I have won again, Lews Therin," (The Great Hunt). Any choice Rand or others could have made differently up to that point in time led to the Dark One winning. Any choices made since may not necessarily lead to the Great Lord's victory, but I think we can assume that almost all of them do, except the timeline we are following. Anyway, the Great Lord didn't win those worlds without effort. He's been busy winning 99% of reality, and now only Rand opposes him.
3. I will never buy any Creator theories because "only the Chosen One can do it" (Eye of the World) and Jordan's concept for the story, the idea that got it all started, was a fellow like Rand getting tapped on the shoulder and being told he was humanity's saviour, go save them. If Rand can rely on any greater power, then he's not really the last obstacle to the Great Lord, is he? Thus, there are also no agents of the Creator in the story. The Creator made the Pattern, named his Champion, and has enough confidence in him to make a very serious wager that he did that job well enough to defeat the Great Lord.
4. I agree that to reincarnate a Chosen, the Great Lord must do so at the moment of death. Balefiring Rahvin back half an hour removes that opportunity. Also, he's gone for good. His thread in the pattern cannot continue, it has been snipped burned, or whatever you want to call it. Eternal reincarnation via the Wheel or tel'aran'rhiod is for all creatures with souls. UNLESS they get balefired. Asmodean taught the Great Lord's enemies, so he doesn't get ressurected, even though he is a Chosen. He Betrayed! The same would apply to Moghedien, if her headache-inducing teachings hadn't opened up the door for Halima to get close to Egwene. I'm sure the Great Lord can not only resurrect, but snip the thread of his Chosen when they die, so that they stay dead as permanently as if they had been balefired.
5. Rand was certain that in his past lives, he had never turned, despite what Ishamael said. My money is on Rand being correct in that regard. Rand might not think it so bad to just give up if he knew it had been done before and the Wheel kept turning.
That's all for now.
araqyl: 2003-05-21
I know this is not directly the focus of this theory and thread, but it does have a crucial part - why, in TAR, does everything the characters find relate to their own world? If TAR is universal, and touches all mirror worlds, why do they not appear more prominently in TAR?
The vague theory I have for this is that TAR is heavily influenced by the perceptions of the person viewing it - characters from Randland see the reflection of Randland in TAR because that is where they belong; people from a mirror world would see the reflection of their own mirror world in TAR, instead of Randland.
Just something that's been tickling my mind for a while...
Korell: 2003-05-21
I am sorry i did not have time to read all of these posts however i just wanted to make a quick comment on somthing
Elder Haman: you made the comment that the DO would want the patterned Balefired to death well here is the thing about that....Both sides decided to not use Balfire they both thought it was tooo destructive why would the DO stand for that? yes it could unravle the pattern but why not just have all his forsaken run around trying to BF Rand if Rands thread were BF with enough power he might even be burned past when he was LTT thus most likly destroying the pattern just a question but on that needs to be adressed
also
araqyl: i like that idea i think alot of it has to do with the persons preception after all if they think hard enough somthing will change so why not? i think you should do a full on thoery on this and explore it more
Callandor: 2003-05-21
I think that the Mirror worlds dont show up in TAR more because they are simulations of what MIGHT have happened not what will or what has. But its just my take on it.
RedHandedFox: 2003-10-24
"To his ears, the world screamed as he used the True Power to rip a small hole and step outside the Pattern", CoS, Ch.20, P. 455
- and step OUTSIDE the Pattern
'nuff said
crispyroach: 2004-02-06
One of the key topics that has been treated elsewhere and needs mentioning here is that time is relative. time is different in T'A'R, not because it is outside it, but moves differently according to Randland.
I think that the Bore is an especially reinforced (by the Creator's making) vacuole or another world like T'A'R. The seals act as a patch over it, or locks to the door. (maybe Rand wanted to smash it for the same reasons that you get the impulse to throw stuff off of a high cliff, or jump off, recklessness.)