1
Tamyrlin: 2003-01-15
The biggest reason I wouldn't go along with this is because I believe that Ishamael has been using the TP, almost exclusively, for a long time. So long, that his eyes in his last body, were caverns of fire. I don't believe Ishamael is using the TP more than before that time...and we don't really have a way to prove that. I would assume that the DO has some measure of control over that power. He seems to take an active role in its usage.
2
Anubis: 2003-01-17
I think that moridin uses the tp because it allows him to bring the DO into the world. Maybe this is how the seals are being weakened.
Or maybe he is insane and likes being filled with dark power. He is the only one who really knows the dark ones plan so it makes since that he would strongly ally himself, and use the dark ones strength completely.
Or maybe it is also meant as symbolism. Moridin has COMPLETELY abandoned the light. The other forsaken may have small shreads or good in them "no one may be lost to the dark so long that they can not find the light". but ishmael is beyond saving. He is completely the dark ones creature.
3
Phlaneri: 2003-01-18
Here is a possibility.
We know that the dark one has punished the chosen he has brought back in one form or another. A man being made a woman. Names being lost. Attached to a Mind Trap. I think it is likly that Moridin CANNOT channel at all. I think he was brought back without the ability to channel. I believe that at one point he senses Saidin being used and remarks about not seeing Saidar so he is not severed but likely blocked from using any power but the TP. This could be an example of the DO sick sense of humor. Allowing Moridin power but only a power he knows will drive him insane again.
4
Callandor: 2003-01-19
That doesn't hold because there is a reference when Moirdin is watching Elyane and Nyneave I think where he says that he could've used the OP to open a gateway but he used the TP instead. So its his choice.
And why would the DO weaken his champion??? He would want him to have every possible advantage, not to weaken him.
5
cosmicpanda: 2003-01-20
I agree with Anubis. The other forsaken seem to be terrified of the DO. This could mean that they may only be bound by means of fright... like Asmodean was, but he sort of repented. Not to say he did completely, though.
So the True Power could be used to bind them to the DO, this way they can't just repent, because they used the TP. The black dots in his eyes could symbolise how much evil is in their bodies. Morridin has so much that there isn't any light left in him and so the DO trusts him.
6
shinigami: 2003-01-23
Hi, I'm new here, so if anyone has an issue with my theory, bite me! Just kidding. Anyway, my theory about him using only the true power is the fact that if the DO controls how much one who can use it can handle, wouldn't he allow his Nae'Blis to be able to control a really large amount? Enough that he would be frightening to a certain Dragon Reborn even were he to use an angreal or sa'angreal? Just a thought, as well, it may also be because of the two balefire beams meeting. Rand was already experiencing some sickness from entering Shadar Logoth while holding on to Saidin, so its only natural that the same thing could have happened to Moridin and why he switched to the TP. I don't know if this makes any sense whatsoever, but everyone should hopefully get my point. Domo Arigato and Sayonara! ^_^
7
Dragons Shadow: 2003-02-06
I agree with the idea that Moridin is suffering the same "temporal disturbance" sickness as Rand. However, unlike Rand, he does have another source of power. It seems like as good a reason as any I've seen for his exclusive use of the TP.
8
jason wolfbrother: 2003-02-06
I think that Moridin is using the TP simply to remain undetected by the others and to keep a closer eye on everyone.
9
Dedicated: 2003-02-06
While we don't know for sure whether Moridin is using the TP anymore than he did as Ishamael, we do know that Moridin has already developed the early version of the saa (black spots in eyeballs). Moghedien comments that for the saa to be so advanced in Moridin so soon, he must have been using the TP exclusively. I agree that since the TP is a gift of the DO, it is granted only to those deemed deserving of it's awesome potential. But, it's also mentioned that the TP is far more addictive than even the one power (it's basically akin to a drug like cocaine, it's empowering, but the effects of it's use will eventually catch up to you). We've gotten to a first hand case of advanced TP sickness with Ishy in the first three books. We assume his burning eyes and mouth were an advanced version of the saa. Ishy was also quite insane in the first three books, even claiming he was the DO many times. I don't know if it's ever been stated that the TP causes insanity, but since it's probably what the DO used to taint saidin, the TP probably does eventually cause insanity. Moridin mentions that he has always been willing to "pay the price" for use of the TP. We don't know exactly what that "price" is, but we get a pretty good idea from the first three books. I also think the TP takes away one's humanity (sort of akin to entering T'A'R' pyhsically, only a different mechanism). Ishy didn't seem very human (if there was any humanity in him in the first place) when he was calling himself Ba'alzammon.
In short, I think Moridin uses the TP exclusively because he's willing to "pay the price" and because he's always been a touch insane.
Sidenote: There is a line in ACoS (the sequence where Jordan called Moridin "the Watcher") where it says that the Watcher "imagined he heard the world scream as ripped a hole in the air and stepped outside the pattern". Anyone have a theory as to what exactly "stepping outside the pattern" means. It has to have been TP, cuz as far as we know the OP won't allow you to step outside the pattern. Anyone with an idea on this one please feel free to throw out ideas. Later y'all.
10
Shen Al Calhar: 2003-02-07
In response to Callandor, TP is likely as powerful or more powerful than TP, but most don't use it because of its adverse effect. Moridin can channel the TP and sense others channeling saidin and saidar, which would give him the advantage in any fight against someone not using the TP.
11
Callandor: 2003-02-07
Read the previous responses and you will see that I was saying that Moridin can use both powers because if the DO made him use ONLY TP it wouldnt make any sense what so ever for him to be taken away from the OP and put directly into channeling only TP.
12
Dedicated: 2003-02-07
Remember, the TP is REALLY addictive. Moridin uses the TP because HE wants to and, because he is Nae'Blis, he gets as greater access to the TP. The DO isn't making Moridin use TP. I agree with Callandor. Moridin uses TP because he wants to, not because the DO forces him. Remember, Moridin is the ever power-hungry Ishamael reborn.
13
Theron: 2003-02-12
The addiction of the True Power is likely enough to keep someone on it, especially if they can draw a greater amount from it than they could from the one power. And I think that the true Power can be used by a man or a woman . Remember when they opened the bore they were searching for some version of the one power that both men and women could use.
14
Dedicated: 2003-02-12
That's what Lanfear thought the TP was. The exact wording is in TSR: The Dedicated. pp.436 when Rand is seeing through the eyes of an AOL aiel named Charn. "Mieren had said today was the day. She said she had found a new source for the One Power. Female Aes Sedai and male would be able to tap the same source, not seperate halves. What men and women would do united would be even greater now that there would be no differences. And today she and Beidomom would tap it for the first time-the last time men and women would work together wielding a different power. Today." Lanfear had unwittingly (I think) found the DO's prison (and thus the TP) and in her thirst for knowledge and power, drilled the Bore. The TP can be used by both male and females. All of the Forsaken can use it if they are granted permission by the DO. Now, only crazy Moridin uses it, as he is the only one insane enough, and the only one with the DO's permission.
15
Theron: 2003-02-12
Does anyone know how strength in the TP is messured. I know that for the OP you can reach a certain point and after that, you can never increase, but how is it measured for the TP? Is it the same as your strength or is it based on how much the DO want's you to have? Any thoughts anyone?
16
Weird Harold: 2003-03-30
Theron,
The DO controls when and how much he permits someone to use, but I believe that if granted unlimited acess tothe TP, the same biological/physical/mental factors that limit OP use also limit TP use. Using the TP is like pumping oil through a water hose -- the size of the hose limits the flow whatever is pumped through it.
17
Great Captain: 2003-03-30
The Price we pay.
The price is a mergence with the Dark One's own spirit in essence to become his avatar hence Ishy's initial apperance when he let his mask of mirrors drop. Another reason why he was calling himself Ba'alzamon was because at that point he was highly linked with the dark ones essence. Since the severing he reverted to normal although his use of the TP will again draw him into the DO.
Out there, off the top of the head. Watch the Pirranhas gather to rip it apart.
18
solomonrex: 2003-03-31
Stepping outside the pattern is the telling clue in regard to Moridin and the TP. The only things outside the pattern are the DO and the Creator- so Moridin is probably not masquerading as the DO, he's probably gone through the bore literally and is starting to meld with or is getting taken over by the DO itself.
19
Dorindha: 2003-03-31
I don't think he was calling himself Ba'alzamon because he was linked to the DO's essence as such, more because he believed himself to be the DO in his madness (very probably caused by overuse of the TP). But Ba'alzamon might have just been what the Trollocs called Ishy - it was only thought to be the Trolloc name for the DO. On the other hand, he did think he was the DO...
20
Jack o Shadows: 2003-05-04
Again, I haven't read al of these 'cos I don't REALLY have the time, lol but...Maybe he can't channel. It doesn't say anywhere that you have to be able to use the OP to be able to use the TP.
21
Callandor: 2003-05-04
In the BWB, it says that Ishy was the only one that came close to LTT in OP strength.
So Ishy can channel the OP.
22
Korell: 2003-05-05
Just out of curiosity do we actually KNOW that Ishy was using the TP top begin with i know i have read another theory that he might never have been imprisioned...if that were true wouldn't being the only person like yourself in the entire world drive you a little bit nuts?...then again you would think he would set himself up nicely by now to where he could rule most of the world and no one would know it but then some of those BA sisters have been for years and they had to have somone to follow or they might think they had been abandoned anyway i think that is a big mess but ishy does say he wispered in the ear of hawkwing so who knows that kinda leads me to belive he was not bound as for using the TP all that time i dont know but Mordin makes a good case for himself of being the DO's avatar though SH is hella cool anyway lol
23
delboy: 2003-05-16
1) it pretty much states in the BWB that Ishy was only partially trapped in the bore, getting released every couple of hundred years.
2) here comes the wacky bit- morraine states somewhere that the DO cannot create new things- he can only warp what already exists- hence trollocs/ogier and so on. therefore it stands to reason that the TP is a twisted version of the OP. i believe that strength in the TP has to be balanced against someones strenght in the OP- in the case of moridin, that he is tied to Rand/LTT. this means that at any given point in time, the potential TP available to Ishy is EXACTLY equal to the maximum OP available to rand.
This also explains why Ishy was so desperate to get to the EOTW before rand in book 1, at that point his strenght in the TP was severely limited because Rand has just begun to channel, and the eye gave him access to far more saidin than he coul normally use.
comments?
24
rubbernilly: 2003-05-19
I don't remember this quote, so if you could find it, that would be worth considering. Even so, however, if the DO's prison *is* the pattern, then it makes sense that he wants to blind the eye, and kill time itself...
The OP drives the wheel of time. If he can stop that drive, the wheel will stop, and he will be free of the pattern. He will then be able to replace what drives the wheel (the OP) with his own fuel - the True Power.
So perhaps this is what RJ meant by having Moiraine say what you referenced: that because the DO is not a part of the wheel, because he is antithetical to the pattern, he cannot create within it. His power lies in re-making it. Once he has the pattern recreated in his image, then those who would find the One Power (by boring into the Creator's prison), would similarly not be able to create... until the wheel was stopped again and the wheel restarted with OP... to make the pattern in the image of the Creator.
Am I making sense?
25
Callandor: 2003-05-19
Umm... Ishamael in the AOL was only matched by LTT. So how would be become tied to Rands power over 3000 years later?
And in TEOTW, Ishys black cord is much much MUCH larger then Rands white cord which connects to the Eye. So I dont think Ishys OP or TP power is in anyway connected to Rands power, accept that they are evenly matched at full strength.
26
araqyl: 2003-05-21
Callandor, I think they meant 'tied' as in 'equal to', not linked... It's quite apparent that Ishamael is at his full potential, while at that stage Rand was far below his - he only got through by luck.
About Ishamael's madness & appearance, I think delboy has the key - he was only partially trapped (like Balthamel, but Ishamael could get out and about every thousand years) so the 'grinding of the Wheel' aged him - and all that was holding him together in the end was Power (OP or TP, who knows?).
The strong impression I have from uses of the TP in the books is that the DO has control of access - he can grant access to somebody, but block their access at any time; and how much they can use depends on their own strength.
Oh, and about Rand's sickness - I'd say that's unique to him, hosting the two evils of the DO & SL in his body as they fight it out within Flinn's warding...
27
crispyroach: 2004-02-06
Sickness is not unique, it's a result of the taint. (and the trollocs are not twisted ogier) I think that Moridin uses the TP because he can. It makes him exclusive. kinda a type of psyc-out to intimidate others. If he is willing to **pay the price** for that, it shows he is willing to do whatever to meet the ends of his goals.
28
dace: 2004-04-20
Just a note on Mr Fire Eyes partial imprisonment in the bore. He was in a loop, traped for forty years, released for forty years. Look in the WoT Guide for the quotes as my mate has my copy.
