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Home | Index | Archives | Help
ynaeve and Rand
by Deloessian: 2003-01-16 | Not yet rated
Previous Categories: Miscellaneous Theories
Hello. This is my first theory, so bear with me because it might be a tad disjointed. :)
Now, Nynaeve has been discussed in many places as maybe healing death, correct? Other theories go on to say, maybe she will heal Rand in death. Unfortunately, nobody has very much evidence for either of these, except for the numerous places in the books where it says "Death cannot be healed," and Lord knows we don't believe most of the main characters opinions until they have proof. :p
Anywho, I have found a couple of passages that caught my attention in this vein, if you will.
First let me bring up a few passages. They won't mean much at first glance, until you put together some pretty common "mythology" for
"... But Nynaeve would not be satisfied till she Healed somebody three days dead." -Elayne, tLoC chptr 7, A Matter of Thought, pg.194
"I myself would not believe him dead unless I sat three days with the corpse." -Master Norry about Rand, WH chptr 9, A Cup of Tea, pg.214
Now, I would like to point out a few similarities between our protagonist Rand, and a fellow by the name of Jesus Christ. No, I am not giving a Bible lesson here, so please, continue reading. Of course we can see the wounds in the hands (branded herons for Rand, puncture wounds for Jesus), a wound in the side (staff wound from Ba'alzamon for Rand, Spear wound for Jesus), and the general idea of a savior of mankind for each. Why the Jesus tangent you ask? Because of the fact that, according to the Bible (I don't have the pages, so please forgive me) Jesus was ressurected 3 days after his death. Let me repeat that:
Jesus was ressurected 3 days after his death.
So, one could assume that since Rand has a few similarities with Christ, could he not have more?
Please remember the passages I have at the top of the theory. Can you not see Robert Jordan sitting at his word proccessor grinning like a loon while he types this? Perhaps he was writing in a premonitionary mood. Or perhaps he was merely throwing it all of track with this. He is capable of either.
In closing, I think it possible that Rand WILL die at the last battle, and after 3 days, Nynaeve will bring him back to life, a la the Christ ressurection.
Thank you for sitting through the whole thing. Feel free to debunk me, I am curious what you people think.
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2003-01-16
I would say that the symbolic nature of Rand's wounds and such are not lost on anyone. But I am a bit skeptical. Christ rose himself from the dead, or God, however you want to interpret it. In this case, a third party would be raising him from the dead. God or the Creator is expected to have this type of overarching power...but Nynaeve? I mean, healing death, would be close to bestowing a level of immortality and I just don't give Nynaeve that much credit. But, I am also a sucker for foreshadowing, and as you pointed out, those are common passages that can lead us to the conclusion that such will occur. So maybe it will happen, I am just not fond of the idea. Jordan likes to mess with mythology and legends, and this could very well just be an instance of Nynaeve believing she is capable of doing anything, and just as Rand found out when he tried, death cannot be healed...I don't know.
Thannon: 2003-01-16
This is just s thought, but couldn't the creator take a special liking to Rand and just possibly tell Nynaeve how to heal death. I mean according to some theories LTT is actually the creator talking to his chosen champion. If that were the case then it would explain Rand's sudden knowledge of the Source so why couldn't the creator talk to Ntneve and do the same. Sorry if this dosen't make sance but its late and i can't really think straight...
Deloessian: 2003-01-17
you know, I am not even sure if I believe it will happen like this if at all, I just found the idea interesting. But hey, we'll just hafta RAFO, right? :p
Daishan: 2003-01-18
I think this was posted before but like Tamyrlin I don't like Nynaeve doing all this. Imagine that she would do this for Rand. So she's now able to "heal" death. Because, if for Rand, why not for anybody else? And why not show her technique to others? Some Ebou Dari Wise Woman already called her weaving "sloppy" or something like that, so she's probably even better than Nyn. With as result; everybody is "immortal". It seems a bit too ludicrous for the story. But, thinking about RJ's style, he'll probably end the series 2 days and 23 hours after TG and leave us kicking and screaming :)
I seriously think it'll be something like that. RJ has made quotes before about not closing all story lines when the series end and this seems like it could be one.
Deloessian: 2003-01-19
Aye, in actuality, I hope it does not end this way. Quite cheesy in fact, I just found it to be an interesting observation. I hope Rand lives, and goes off to live with his 3 lovely women somewhere safe from a new Breaking. :p
Exocrist: 2003-01-20
There's been something bothering me about a bunch of these theories, often they mention either Flinn being the greatest healer of all, or Nynaeve. With the fact that Flinn and Nynaeve are the two who figured out how to heal stilling, independently, i'd say they are the two best healers.
Now, I'd like to draw a connection. They always say that things done in the AoL that used both halves of the Power were the most amazing, powerful things. So, perhaps if Nynaeve and Finn linked, or worked together to revive him, they could, but personally i dont think that Nynaeve could do it herself. Just a thought, a possible revision to your theory...
Galadriel: 2003-01-25
Well, if Rand was one person with two souls (himself and Lews Therin) and let's say, Lews took over Rand's body (he's been trying to steal away saidin from him for a while now), fights the last battle and dies. Maybe then Rand could resurrect into his body (after say...three days) and live happily ever after. I can't remember where it is (somewhere in the first 4 books I think) where Egwene or Perrin has a vision of Rand, seemingly dead on a raft with three women around him. Anyone else remember that? There might be a clue to further this theory.
Daishan: 2003-01-26
I think that's in FoH or LoC. Egwene dreams about Rand on a funeral bier with three women around him. Later, in Salidar during the "bubble of evil" Nicola has her Foretelling which basically says the same thing; "Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives.... etc."
But, everybody; I'm willing to put money on the series ending 30 seconds before they try to resurrect him...
Theron: 2003-02-12
Diashan, thats assuming RJ is corrupt and enters the path concerning (insert dramatic music here) "THE SEARCH FOR MORE MONEY. RJ just wants to make a good story, and assuming a big enough portion of the main charaters survive the last battle then he could certianly continue on and keep his credibility and a good story. Rand, assuming he is never balefired, will be reborn agian (he has many times before) when the world needs him. That is why I do not believe that Rand will be resurrected by nynaeave or the creator.
araqyl: 2003-05-21
The main problem I see with this theory of Nynaeve doing the healing is that none of the various Viewings, Dreams, or Foretellings involve Nynaeve.
iirc there are references to the three being those who jointly Bonded Rand, and also there's Min's viewing that Alivia will help Rand die and that he will certainly fail without Moiraine about, but I cannot recall a single example of one of these 'concrete' sources placing Nynaeve with Rand and his 'death'.
Korell: 2003-05-21
just a couple quick things one
Deloessian: there will be no new breaking the breaking Happened during LTT's time and Rand was reborn in a diffrent age there wont be another Breaking till the time of LTT comes again
also
Galadriel: RJ has said there is only one soul so this cannot happen i think LTT is a split personality atributed to the taint
as for Rand being resurected i dont think he will have died to be resurected i think he will fake his death and then perhaps return 3 days later but i dont think he will die atleast not at TG
Kris Murdrum: 2003-08-08
So we are back to the hypothetical death of athurian J. C. Tyr (Rand al'Thor). Well I agree he will 'die' one way or another in the final battle. But will it be staged? Will he fall into deep coma (ala Romeo et Juliet) and everybody think him dead, but along comes somebody (Nyn, Flinn, that kinswoman) and heals him out of it? that could be fun to wait and rafo
Bela: 2003-08-14
ok, i like the idea that rand survives the 'Last Battle' (and it really isn't the Last Battle is it since the Wheel of Time keeps turning). but i'm off track. LTT survived until after his attempt to seal the Dark One in Shayul Ghul and wasn't killed until later. isn't it possible that the same will happen to rand?
crispyroach: 2004-03-10
I have to agree with what i have seen as the majority concensus: Nynaeve will not heal death. I can see a number of reasons why.
1. Life is given by the Creator (minus the DF and such that give control of thier souls to the DO). Once life has been taken, only he can return, or re-instate that soul to "life".
2. The answer the Aeilfinn give him "to live you must die". To live agian, Rand must die. (to be reborn)
3. LTT died. All the other Dragons that we know of have died.
I don't think that Rand would ever be happy if he lived. He is half crazy, killed so many people or caused them to die. I think that it would be like when Frodo gets back to the shire and never enjoys it. He lived through too much. This would be ironical, but i don't think that he will make it.
Cha Faile: 2004-03-10
I completely agree with you crispyroach...and i was thinking of the Frodo link too when i was reading this theory. The end of LOTR would be boring and would trail off if Frodo hadn't gone into the west with the last of the elves....so either Rand will die (v. likely) or he will leave to live somewhere else...Seanchan?maybe Shara..i'm only guessing about different places where they might not know who he is. But still, his past would still haunt him and i think he would go insane. ALso, Nyneave can't heal death...i always thought that you needed some energy or life inside someone to heal them...if i remember correctly somebody.?(don't know who)... said that in the AoL Aes Sedai could heal with only a tiny spark of life left in somebody. Rand would not have even a spark of life inside him (he would be dead after all) and the Aes Sedai today are nowhere near as knowledgeable as the ones in the AoL! Therefore, i believe that Rand will die as will Mat and Perrin (what woudl they do after the LB anyway!Perrin couldn't just go back to the Two Rivers and be a blacksmith!) To be fair though, people won't be abble to go back to the way they lived before anyway- no one will- so logically they woudl all have to die if my Mat and Perrin thing is true. Maybe i didn't think that one through...Besides, Deloessian, according to the Bible, GOd resurrected Christ..the only God like figure here is the Creator, and i don't think he'd want to resurect Rand - it woudln't be fair on him- if i was him, after the LB i would be fine with dying. He even says alot that he wouldn't mind dying but he has to hang on to the LB . I think he would be pretty annoyed if someone disturbed him in death. Surely, the Creator should be focusing on rebuilding the world not resurecting someone.Radn has to die sometime.
Jochalan: 2004-03-10
just can't agree with you, Cha Faile, on the idea that all three will die at the LB, there has to be some leaders to make new legends and lead into the next Age of the pattern
such as perrin, it seems he will ressurect Manetheren, even if against his wishes, since he is allready technically king of Ghealden, heir to the throne of Saldea and lord of the Two Rivers...just about what ancient Manetheren ruled over, he may not consilidate in his lifteime but the seeds have been laid allready
Mat of course I see becoming the empereor of Senchean and therefore all land west and south of the mountains of mist
Anubis: 2004-03-10
ya know, i gotta wonder somthing. The last battle is gonna be fought at Shayol Ghoul, or at least i think so.
Now it has been mentioned that there are things that can only be done there, and also things that can only be done to channelers there. So maybe, at shayol goul it is possible, if everything is set up right, to heal death. Call it thinness in the pattern or somthing.
Davian93: 2004-03-10
**** always thought that you needed some energy or life inside someone to heal them...if i remember correctly somebody.?(don't know who)... said that in the AoL Aes Sedai could heal with only a tiny spark of life left in somebody.****
All healing in the 3rd Age has needed strength from the victim to be successful, but we know from the Forsaken that this was not always true. 3rd Age healing has been referred to as equivilent to "hasty battlefield work" not true healing. Supposedly healing in the AoL didnt leave the patient flat on his/her back. Therefore the energy for the healing came from somewhere other than the patient. The AoL healers most likely used the OP in a way to pull the energy from it instead of the individual. On that basis, the victim theoretically might not need to have any energy left for the healing. Therefore, the "faintest spark" i.e. someone basically dead could be brought back.
As for Nyneave healing Rand, there has been a lot of speculation toward this effect that stems from a couple of comments by characters throughout the books. There is a possibility that Nyneave will heal Rand from "death". I personally am on the fence on this one but I am leaning toward something happening.
Khaos: 2004-03-11
an interesting topic personally I think the christ symbolism is too thick (oh and you left out the crown of swords/crown of thorns paralell)for Rand not to be killed at TG and then resurrected 3 days later.
As for how I think Nynaeve will try maybe even using the Choedan Kal and only succeed in healing his body. Everyone will think him dead and then 3 days later the crreator will restore his soul and he'll go off and live happily ever after until RJ decides otherwise.
And as for not being able to live with himself that is exactly what Cadsuane is going to teach him. besides if I had 3 drop dead gorgeous women lusting after me I think I'd be distracted rfom annoying things like guilt.
Daekyras: 2004-03-11
Restoring life after THREE days? the very notion is ludicrous. In our world, the maximum time a person has been dead is about 20 hours. Even in extreme cold anyone brought back after more than about 10 hours is generally brain dead. It is not possible. If RJ actually writes this I'll lead the Lynch mob of "angry villagers with torches and pitchforks" to his door.
Arbryan: 2004-03-11
This is obviously going to have to be a RAFO. Some hints are there, but they could be empty. Nothing states that Rand will die for 3 days and then be resurrected by Nyneave.
Could Rand die for a few minutes in TAR and 3 days pass in the waking world? Time does flow differently there.
Could RJ have had Mat brought back by Balefire to set a precedence? So that if it is done to bring Rand back it is not a miracle from out of nowhere?
Could a sarcastic post I read somewhere (or prediction) that the last book ends 2 days 23 hours... be right and we will have to draw our own conclusions based upon what we currently have and what will be provided by the end?
Davian93: 2004-03-11
****Restoring life after THREE days? the very notion is ludicrous****
It is the basis of one of the world's major religions, so its not so far-fetched. As for Modern "death" and death in Randland. They are similar and different. We are much more accurate in saying someone is dead than they were 300 years ago. If Rand was say, frozen, the OP could possibly be used to restore all the damage done to his body in the unfreezing process. I am not saying I believe this will happen, only that the possibility does exist.
Callandor: 2004-03-11
**Could Rand die for a few minutes in TAR and 3 days pass in the waking world? Time does flow differently there.**
But, then he would be dead for 3 days, since 3 days passed in the real world.
And, again, if Rand were to die, and three days pass on the most important event of the Age (the end of it most likely), and then Rand were brought back by balefire, would completely change what had already occured during this time frame.
And the Creator won't just grant Rand life again; that is interfering with the Pattern.
brigitta: 2004-03-12
i strongly agree with Callandor. If he were dead for 3 days and then brought back via balefire, it would do terrible things to the pattern. and the Creator prolly wouldn't "grant" him life again. in the same body. but since I'm a firm believer in the creators lack of coherent will, this does not seem like a problem to me, dunno about you guys though.
there have been very many instances where there's been discussion about resurrecting people, the most... graphic... of them Rand trying to make a dead child live... But given Nyns stubbornness and strenghth with the OP, nothing's impossible.
Darren: 2004-03-12
Callandor, that's only interference in the Pattern if the Champion of Light's resurrection is not PART of the pattern (which it may very well be.) I'm not sure what will happen there, but I don't see any logical basis for the unequivocal denial of resurrection as a possibility.
Arbryan: 2004-03-12
"But, then he would be dead for 3 days, since 3 days passed in the real world. "
If he were in TAR in the flesh time could pass differently for his body/soul.
Callandor: 2004-03-12
**Callandor, that's only interference in the Pattern if the Champion of Light's resurrection is not PART of the pattern (which it may very well be.) I'm not sure what will happen there, but I don't see any logical basis for the unequivocal denial of resurrection as a possibility.**
What?
Let's try this again:
1. People who believe that Rand will be resurrected all agree that Rand must DIE first; hence, you know, being resurrected.
2. What is being dead? No soul in the body (Grey Men do not count in any argument since they are altered by the DO so their thread continues in the Pattern).
3. If Rand dies, his soul would return to the soul pool, or wherever souls go after death, and await being reborn.
4. However, if the Creator steps in and brings Rand back to life, what is that besides interfering? Rand's soul was going to the soul pool, and the Creator STOPPED it. The Creator does NOT interfer; ever.
And the reason I don't believe in the magical new anti-death weave is a very logical one. Anyone who is by an Aes Sedai who knows this weave can live forever then.
Say John Doe Randland is married to an Aes Sedai. John dies; his wife brings him back to life with the weave. Does that not do a little change to the Pattern, since it decided that John needed to die? So, John is back to life, going against what the Pattern wanted/needed, and he dies again soon after; his wife brings him back again.
See the problem? John can do whatever he feels like, die hundreds of times, and his wife can bring him back everytime till she dies.
How would this not but screw up the Pattern totally? The Pattern allows for small changes. SMALL changes. Death is never small, especially someone important (hmm, maybe Rand?) who is given less choices by the Pattern.
When the Pattern wants/needs someone to die, they die. If it needs someone to live and continue to live, they live. After the Last Battle THERE IS NO REASON FOR RAND TO LIVE. The Dragon, and the Dragon Reborn (and the Dragon Reborn Reborn, etc.), is meant to die after doing what is needed by the Pattern. For Rand, that is winning the Last Battle. After that, nothing.
Anubis: 2004-03-12
but there is a thinness in the pattern at shayol goul, which allows thing that are impossible elsewhere to be possible
charliec: 2004-03-13
Hmm, but if someone was in TAR in the flesh and died... what would happen to their corpse? I doubt it'd last 3 days, real time or otherwise.
Nine Moons: 2004-03-13
I think that if Nynaeve or someone else in the Pattern brings Rand back from the dead, that person will have to die to do it, but, that's just my opinion.
Darren: 2004-03-13
First of all, Callandor, that whole the Creator does not interfere, EVER is unlikely, else he would not be the creator.
I know where you're getting it from; the battle of Tarwin's Gap, where who (I assume and I think you also do, but I might be wrong) says "I am forbidden to interfere" or somesuch; now this might well be any interference in the pattern at all, but I rather think it has more to do with interference between the battle of the two champions (Light and Dark)... after the last battle, resurrection is hardly interference.
Now, I'm against the idea of Nynaeve healing death as much as you, but let's face facts, RJ does NOT like unhappy endings. The only major character he's "killed" is moiraine, and we both know she ain't really out of the picture. Even minor and annoying characters persist, so if you really expect me to believe that RJ isn't going to pull a deus ex machina at the end, you're wasting your time.
maybe Rand SHOULD die and stay dead, but he won't. I'm thinking the Creator will resurrect him, and still see no reason why this is impossible; the creator must have SOME hand in the pattern, after all, or else the patern is self aware and benevolent.
Callandor: 2004-03-14
**Now, I'm against the idea of Nynaeve healing death as much as you, but let's face facts, RJ does NOT like unhappy endings. The only major character he's "killed" is moiraine, and we both know she ain't really out of the picture. Even minor and annoying characters persist, so if you really expect me to believe that RJ isn't going to pull a deus ex machina at the end, you're wasting your time.**
Where is it stated that RJ does not like unhappy endings? Whay hasn't he killed off any major characters? THEY ARE NEEDED! Or have you entirely missed all the chapters that ever contain the word "ta'veren"?
**maybe Rand SHOULD die and stay dead, but he won't. I'm thinking the Creator will resurrect him, and still see no reason why this is impossible; the creator must have SOME hand in the pattern, after all, or else the patern is self aware and benevolent.**
Ok, lets put it simply:
**BWB Page 13,CHAPTER 1: The Wheel and the Pattern
What is the Wheel of Time? Imagine a great cosmic loom in the shape of a seven-spoked wheel, slowly spinning through eternity, weaving the fabric of the universe. *The Wheel, put in place by the Creator, is time itself, ever turning and returning* The fabric it weaves is constructed from the threads of lives and events, interlaced into a design, the Great Pattern, which is the whole of existance and reality, past, present, and future.**
**BWB Page 14-16, CHAPTER 1: The Wheel and the Pattern
*The only known forces outside the Wheel and the Pattern are the Creator, who shaped the Wheel, the One Power that drives it--as well as the plan for the Great Pattern--and the Dark One, who was imprisoned outside the pattern by the Creator at the moment of creation.* *No one inside and of the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern.* Even those who are ta'veren can only alter, but not completely change, the weave. It is believed that if he escapes his prison, the Dark One, being a creature or force beyond creation, has the ability to remake the Wheel and all of creation in his own dark image. Thus each person, especially each of those born ta'veren, must struggle to achieve his or her own best destiny to assure the balance and continuation of the Great Pattern.**
The Creator did certain things:
1. He imprisoned the Dark One.
2. He created the Wheel of Time and set up the Pattern.
3. He created the One Power.
Other then that, he does not interfere at all.
**TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight, CHAPTER: 24 - A Strengthening Storm
Irritably, Rand pushed his sleeves down and dropped into a chair. What he had done made no matter to Logain. The man knew saidin was clean, but he could not believe Rand or any man had actually done the cleansing. Did he think the Creator had decided to stretch out a merciful hand after three thousand years of suffering? *The Creator had made the world and then left humankind to make of it what they would, a heaven or the Pit of Doom by their choosing. The Creator had made many worlds, watched each flower or die, and gone on to make endless worlds beyond. A gardener did not weep for each blossom that fell.***
Now, if the DO breaks free and interferes with the Pattern, he will destroy it; that is his plan. The Creator is equal, if not more powerful than, the DO since he imprisoned him. You are telling me that if the Creator interfered, brought a dead person back to life, if he brought a thread BACK into the Pattern, that nothing would happen? That is something seriously faulty.
Btw, for Nynaeve Healing goers:
**TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 49 - To Boannda
Marigan, a few years older, had been plump once, but her frayed brown dress hung on her loosely now, and her blunt face looked beyond weary. Her two sons, six and seven, stared silently at the world with too-big eyes; clinging to each other, they seemed frightened of everything and everyone else, even their own mother. Marigan had dealt in cures and herbs in Samara, though she had some odd ideas about both. That was no wonder, really; a woman who offered healing with Amadicia and Whitecloaks right across the river had to keep low, and even from the first she had had to teach herself. All she had ever wanted to do was cure sickness, and she claimed to have done it well, though she had not been able to save her husband. The five years since his death had been hard, and the coming of the Prophet had certainly not helped her any. Mobs searching for Aes Sedai chased her into hiding after she had cured a man of fever and rumor had turned it into bringing him back from the dead. *That was how little most people knew of Aes Sedai; death was, beyond the power to Heal.* Even Marigan seemed to think it was not. She did not know where she was going any more than Nicola. A village somewhere, she hoped, where she could dispense herbs again in peace.**
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Message
*That was what everyone believed, anyway, but in Nynaeve's opinion the One Power should be able to Heal anything short of death.* "If you have something useful to add, Marigan," she said sharply, "then say it. If not, keep quiet."**
Even Nynaeve thinks death is beyond what anyone can Heal.
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Message
Marigan shrank back against the wall, eyes glittering and fixed on Nynaeve. Fear and hate rolled through the bracelet, but they always did to one degree or another. Captives seldom loved their captors, even—perhaps especially—when they knew they deserved captivity and worse. The problem was that Marigan also said severing—stilling—could not be Healed. *Oh, she was full of claims that anything else except death could be Healed in the Age of Legends, that what the Yellow Ajah called Healing now was only the crudest hasty battlefield work.* But try to pin her down on specifics, on even a hint of how, and you found nothing there. Marigan knew as much about Healing as Nynaeve did about blacksmithing, which was that you stuck metal in hot coals and hit it with a hammer. Certainly not enough to make a horseshoe. Or Heal much beyond a bruise.**
In the AOL, they could take souls and put them into the Nym, which is how they were constructed. Yet, they could not bring people back to life. Interesting.
Rand will die. He is prophacized to die, and is destined to die. There is no coming back for him. No magical new death, cure-all, weave to be discovered or a mercifiul hand from the Creator to bring him back.
He just dies. End of story.
Darren: 2004-03-15
2. He created the Wheel of Time and set up the Pattern.
Again... he set up the pattern... since Rand is pretty damn near THE ta'veren, his life is thus largely defined by the pattern, so a resurrection laid out as destiny by the Creator IS A POSSIBILITY....
I'm not saying it's the only possibility, just that it COULD happen....
And where has it been stated that RJ don't like unhappy endings? Well, I've read both his Conan books and even that lame Fallon Blood... happy endings.... never mind the 9000 or so pages of this series in which NOT ONE MAJOR CHARACTER DIES....
sure they're all needed. Siuan is necessary, so is Leane. (eyes rolling) Lots of people are necessary, but they still die, everyday.
Just not in these books.
HawkeWolfe: 2004-03-15
Callandor
Just out of curiousity, where did you get the information about taking souls and putting them into the Nym??
I have never read that anywhere.
Callandor: 2004-03-15
**Just not in these books.**
Wrong, just not yet.
And what about Jaichim Carridin, Rahvin, Sammael, Hopwil, ASMODEAN (ironic that he was never mentioned before), Fedwin Morr, Jonan Adley, Kisman? Few authors kill off important characters midway through their novels; and yes, people die everyday, but generally how old are they? Do they live for quite sometime even though it seems they shouldn't?
**Again... he set up the pattern... since Rand is pretty damn near THE ta'veren, his life is thus largely defined by the pattern, so a resurrection laid out as destiny by the Creator IS A POSSIBILITY....**
Ok, last time at this.
The Creator made a pool. That pool is that Pattern. If that pool gets one single ripple in it, it will be destroyed. The lives of people are the individual water molecules (more specifically, the THREADS are the molecules of water). If one molecule of water is take away, or destroyed, what happens? The rest of the water fills in the area and continues. There is no return for it. The Creator cannot go and put back in a single molecule of water into that pool without causeing a ripple (or touching the Pattern), and hence, without destroying it.
And frankly, the Creator doesn't care enough to. The quote I gave above states:
**The Creator had made the world and then left humankind to make of it what they would, a heaven or the Pit of Doom by their choosing.**
HE DOES NOT TAKE ANY ACTION! Human choice, or lack thereof by the Pattern, decides their fate. If Rand dies, which he just happens to be prophacized to do, he will not magically return by the Creator or any other force (outside the DO, which Rand would never swear to).
So what is so hard to see by this?
Rand dies. Thats it.
Daekyras: 2004-03-16
I have to disagree with you callandor. It is not a cert that Rand will die. there are many ways for the prophecies to be interpreted.
However I must agree with you about the main point - If he does die, he is dead, gone, no hope of resurrection.
charliec: 2004-03-16
Callandor
**The Creator made a pool. That pool is that Pattern. If that pool gets one single ripple in it, it will be destroyed. The lives of people are the individual water molecules (more specifically, the THREADS are the molecules of water). If one molecule of water is take away, or destroyed, what happens? The rest of the water fills in the area and continues. There is no return for it. The Creator cannot go and put back in a single molecule of water into that pool without causeing a ripple (or touching the Pattern), and hence, without destroying it.**
Not sure I agree with you here... sure one POV suggests the creator doesn't care, but then again plenty of people think that about God, doesn't mean their right.
As for the creator not being able or willing to intervene, what do you make of the bit in Tarwin's gap in the first book?
I agree though that there's no need for a resurrection, I don't think it's RJ's style.
crispyroach: 2004-03-16
Ohh it's good to hear a little snap in Callandor's responses again...
Bringing characters back from the dead is the epitome of weak writing. This is why I dislike Salvatore... anyway, RJ will kill Rand, and he will stay dead. If you look at it in the light that Callandor has so pointedly put it, what does it matter to the Pattern if Rand has some honeys and it would be sad if he didn't get to spend the rest of his natural life in some kind of perpetual orgy? He defeats the DO, secures life and prosperity for the rest of mankind until the threat re-surfaces, and he is reborn. THAT IS HOW THE PATTERN WORKS! LTT killed his whole family, went nuts, screwed up life for a ton of people, and did not get the chance to come back and fix it. WHY? he fulfilled his purpose of sealing the DO back into his place. Which (coincedently?) is Rands purpose. Death is not a punishment for those who have fulfilled thier purpose. He has alot to do, or alot he can do after the LB, I bet the girl that Rand tryed to heal in the Stone had alot she could have done too. But she didn't come back. Death is death.
Callandor: 2004-03-16
**I have to disagree with you callandor. It is not a cert that Rand will die. there are many ways for the prophecies to be interpreted.**
How else?
LTT and Rand merging? Already happening.
Rand faking his death? Could very well happen before the Last Battle (possibly as a way to take direct control of the Black Tower).
Rand going off to be a beggar forever by himself (I'll ignore the simple fact that it screams Dune)? Hmm... what about his 3 wifes (technically not married, but meh), the FOUR Warder bonds that he cannot break, and his increasing insanity? Rand does not want to die; there is no way in hell I would ever say that (no one ever wants to die). But that does not mean he wants to survive after the Last Battle.
Or, the simple and best solution: He dies. Job done, soul secure, duty and destiny fulfilled.
Callandor: 2004-03-16
**As for the creator not being able or willing to intervene, what do you make of the bit in Tarwin's gap in the first book?**
I don't know what happened in Tarwin's Gap and cannot explain it. However, if it was the Creator, which is could very well be, he only spoke. He did not cure death or recreate the world. Only spoke.
Anubis: 2004-03-17
*Could a sarcastic post I read somewhere (or prediction) that the last book ends 2 days 23 hours... be right and we will have to draw our own conclusions based upon what we currently have and what will be provided by the end? *
and robert jordan will tell us that the ending is obvious and we should be able to deduce it from the books....
actually i think i know how to figure out who killed asmodean, but i dont have my books so i cant till i go home.
Darren: 2004-03-17
**Just not in these books.**
Wrong, just not yet.
Oooh... somebody's head is getting a little swelled. Starting to think we're Robert Jordan, are we?
My point remains the same. There have been TEN endings so far, and don't try to pull off that "it's one story" line with me. Jordan definitely writes each novel as a story in itself, each with its own.... (ready for it)..... HAPPY.... ending.
So I'm not wrong. He may well kill Rand off at the end of the series; actually, no... forget all that.
YOU are wrong. The series will not end with Rand dying the final death. You can quote me on that.
charliec: 2004-03-17
Sure, he only spoke, but for the Creator to actually speak to someone is potentially a pretty huge intervention... think of the prophets and judges in the bible.
Incidentally, does it seem weird to anyone else that Rand has NEVER been seen to be dwelling on/mulling over the fact that he heard this voice in Tarwin's Gap? maybe he thinks it's part of the madness, or maybe RJ doesn't want to go down that whole route (one in the eye for my "Rand get's to use a third power theory", doh!)
Callandor: 2004-03-17
**Oooh... somebody's head is getting a little swelled. Starting to think we're Robert Jordan, are we?
My point remains the same. There have been TEN endings so far, and don't try to pull off that "it's one story" line with me. Jordan definitely writes each novel as a story in itself, each with its own.... (ready for it)..... HAPPY.... ending.**
Where the heck are you getting this? It IS all one story; the books end at plot points.
And every book having a happy ending? What about TPOD? What the heck is happy about Faile getting captured? Or Rand going into hidding, and more of his trusted people getting killed? Or LoC (yes, Rand freed blah, blah, blah, that is not the ending), what the heck is good about Forsaken being freed, innocent people being ripped to shreads, and Dark plots moving forward? Or CoT, what is good about Egwene getting captured? You don't get an ominous feeling about Rand going to meet the Seanchan? All happy my left foot.
And no, these are not books written by themselves. Give The Fires of Heaven to someone who has never read these books. They will in the end get some jist of a story, but will they get it all? Heck no. Go even further to WH and CoT and they will be pulling their hair out and demanding to know what the heck is going on, becasue they do not have the neccesary background information.
No, I'm not Robert Jordan, but look at the simple logic of it. Ok, greatest battle of the Age, and a direct fight against all the Shadowspawn, Darkfriends, Dreadlords, and Forsaken, not to mention the sealing away of the Dark One. You are telling me that in that battle, not one person died, when in a small skirmish in the Two Rivers between Perrin and some Two Rivers boys ended with I believe 27 dead?
dragonsceptor: 2004-03-17
I have to put my two cents in on this.
I BELIEVE Rand will die (maybe not literally...remember I'm a two souler despite RJ's comments) but will not stay dead. I see too many paralells to Jesus Christ for it not to happen. I know most of you will think me insane but I'm willing to accept that. I value logic and it will take you far...however, sometimes you've just got to go with your gut and that's what I'm doing.
Rand will live past the LB. Besides, it would be a shame to destroy our fantasies of El, Avi, and Min orgies :>)
Darren: 2004-03-18
now you're putting words in my mouth... like I said NO ONE will die in the last battle. I said RAND wouldn't...
Look, to be honest I would be as happy as (whatever) if Rand stayed dead at the end of the series... I'm not saying I want everyone to live forever; but RJ is just not going to give us that kind of ending, I think.
Obviously you don't think that, and you're welcome to your opinion.
And shouldn't the victory of the Light BE a happy, Hollywood style ending, anyhow? If we're dealing in archetypes, then you have to go to those extremes.
When it comes down to it, I'd be happy if Jordan wrote ANY ending, rather than more prequels and padding (like CoT... please, give me three hundred more pages of Elayne drinking tea and having stomach cramps...) any ending at all.
but I'm digressing. I've said my piece and I think this argument is just degenerating... I'll say no more.
Callandor: 2004-03-20
**And shouldn't the victory of the Light BE a happy, Hollywood style ending, anyhow? If we're dealing in archetypes, then you have to go to those extremes.**
Rand dying does not give a sad ending. It gives the happy, everything worked out, ending but at a price. That price is the death of Rand.
charliec: 2004-03-21
**Look, to be honest I would be as happy as (whatever) if Rand stayed dead at the end of the series... I'm not saying I want everyone to live forever; but RJ is just not going to give us that kind of ending, I think.**
RJ says he's got the last seen in his head, and has had it there for nearly 20 years... could easily be a "central character finally achieving victory and release in death" kind of thing going on there...
snakes-n-foxes: 2004-03-21
I think Rand will survive the last battle...there is no actual prophecy saying he will die at Shayol Ghoul, but rather how people in Randland have interpretted the prophecy 'his blood stains the rocks of Shayol Ghoul, sacrifice for mans salvation' or some such...but nothing that actually says 'The Dragon dies at Shayol Goul, sacrifice for mans salvation'
Then there is the Finns telling Rand 'to live you must die'
And then there are Mins viewings of Her Elayne and Avienda standing around Rands funeral bier
And then Mins viewing of Rand as a beggar.
It is highly unlikely, perhaps impossible, that Rand will become a beggar before the last battle - I doubt the pattern would let him. AFTER the last battle, he may want to find himself - not the dragon - but Rand.
He may fake his own death to do this 'if you would live, you must die'
How do you stage a death of such a degree as to convince people that you are actually dead ? And what on earth could possibly force rand to actually beg...he has the one power at his disposal.
No, I don't have the answers for this, except it appears to me he will stage his own death.
snakes-n-foxes: 2004-03-21
Edit on my last post : Then there is Alivia 'helping Rand die' - you can't HELP someone die (at least not in Randland) - you kill them, or heal them, but 'help' them die ???
Again, sounds like another way of saying 'help Rand fake his own death'
JollyW89: 2005-04-05
I like the thoery about Rand and LTT fighting for control of Rands body. It would be very dramatic, if say Rand is hurt and "dies" Then in his subconciuse There are 2 halves of Rand. Him and LTT. They both take human form (inside his head) as the battle for the world rages. Of coarse LTT and Rand will talk for a while. Then they start to fight. In order to win the last battle Rand must survive, because even thought LTT knows more of the one power he is crazy. (or is it that the more of LTT "forms" The saner he gets?)
Just a theory, and not supprted, but thats my guess.