shamael in TDR. Did the Dark One kill him?
by Dedicated: 2003-01-24 | Not yet rated
This is kind of an old issue, but I'm new here so be easy on me Tam. At the end of the Dragon Reborn when Ishamael cries for the Dark One to aid him, the darkness (of the TP I'm assuming) boils around him, yet he still loses to Rand. A rather raw and inexperienced Rand. Now my theory is that The Dark One let Rand win this battle. Here's why. For one thing, the other Forsaken at this time were worried about Ishamael using the Great Lord's name and even thinking he was the Great Lord. (Hell, after 3000 years of leading the Shadow's forces who wouldn't become at least little obssesed with the idea?) Anyway I wander off topic. My theory is that the Dark One killed Ishy in a fit of rage for using his name as his own. (Could anyone support this with specific instances where Ishy claims to the Great Lord?) Basically the Dark One told Ishy that "even though you've been my best servant for 3000 years now, you will not pretend to be me."
Anywho, that's my theory. Please give me some insight as to whether I'm close to something or way off base.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2003-01-25
I'm not that harsh am I? :) I think that the fact that the DO gave him a new body and made him Nae'blis, allowing him to cage other Forsaken, makes me lean toward the idea that the DO was proud of Ishy (but I am sure the DO talked to him about his personal vendetta's.) But you bring up a moment that is quite strange. Ishy did call for the DO, and the strange darkness. What that meant is still unknown. Did the DO take Ishy's soul before Rand was able to sever and kill him (which is kind of what you are suggesting)? I will have to go back and read that part again.
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Dedicated: 2003-01-25
Thank you Tam, that's close to what I was suggesting. I do think the Dark One took Ishy's soul before Rand could kill him. Even though Rand was using Callandor, he should have been no match for a TP wielding (and vastly more experienced) Ishy. This was an extreme example of the DO making sure that Ishy knew his place in the pecking order. Now, I don't think the DO's ire lasted long (after all the DO gave Ishy a new body, the Nae' Blis tag, and almost exclusive access to the TP), it was just a rather un-gentle reminder to Ishy that even he is below the DO.
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Daishan: 2003-01-26
Another interesting point I think is that it's appearantly possible to "re-attach" yourself to the DO after you've been cut off of him. Rand cuts Ishy's connection off in tEotW, and in TDR (and I think also in TGH) Ishy is clearly attached again. It makes me wonder why Asmodean made such a huge fuss about it...
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Tamyrlin: 2003-01-26
Well, those aren't conclusive enough to say that a link can be reestablished. All of the instances of Ishy's cord being cut occur in T'A'R. I would assume that his cord was never actually cut. It is a much debated point. Asmodean made such a big deal because he WAS actually cut off.
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Daishan: 2003-01-27
But the DO exists in every world at the same time, and T'A'R is the reflection of every world at the same time. I think I remember that if you're shielded in T'A'R, you're shielded in the real world as well (from the Stone of Tear escape), but maybe that's only if you're actually held in T'A'R. Anyway, what I mean is that since both the DO and T'A'R are constants, I would imagine that if the cord is cut there, it's cut in reality, the same as with all physical wounds. You're right; it's not conclusive. But then, what ever is in WoT... :)
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migster: 2003-01-27
It's entirely possible that Asmodean (and Lanfear more subtly) made a big deal about it because he didn't know that it could be reestablished, especially without visiting Shayol Ghul. It was a big deal that the traitors from the AoL WENT there to pledge fealty to the Shadow. So, in Asmodean's place, having no easy means to get there being mostly shielded, his distress seems legitimate without compromising the idea that the Ish-man got 'cut' (gee, sounds unpleasant).
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Zepher: 2003-02-16
I just re-read that part and Ishy was just about to unleash a sort of black fireball on Rand when Rand acted first and stabbed him in the chest. Thus, the DO did not exactly forsake(hehe)Ishy, Ishy just had bad timing. This may not be what you are looking for but is what I found...
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Dedicated: 2003-02-20
I stand corrected. Upon further review, Rand did stab Ishy with Callandor before Ishy could launch that ball of TP at him. Still, I don't see how Ishy could have lost to Rand. Rand had Callandor, but Ishy had the TP. He could have easily destroyed Rand before Rand even knew what was happening. I still think that Ishy was cheated somehow (i.e. the DO took his soul) before he could kill Rand. At the time the DO did not want Rand dead. I was thinking that maybe the DO took Ishy's soul before Rand killed him (Remember, Ishy kept the faith alive for more than 3000 years). The DO certainly wouldn't want his greatest servant damaged beyond repair. What if Rand would have balefired Ishy? That would certainly put a damper on the Shadow's plans if their champion was iced for good. Ishy crying out for the DO to "aid' him is a big sticking point with me. Why wouldn't the DO give Ishy enough TP to destroy Rand completely unless he had other plans? We all assume that the TP is a gift from the DO and is given only with his express permission. It just doesn't add up.
9
Mairan Sedai: 2003-04-09
Well, remember how in the later books Elza Penfell is obsessed with getting Rand to the Last Battle so that the DO can defeat him? The Dark One was probably planning on killing Rand himself, but he didn't want to have to lose his main man Ishy. Hence this solution.
10
believer2: 2003-04-09
I don't believe the DO wants Rand dead, YET. My reasoning:
1) If the DO could use the True Power (his source of power) to break the Wheel of Time (that which imprisons him), he would have done it.
2) If the DO & the Forsaken combined could have broken the Wheel of Time, they would have.
I think it is a fairly safe quess that the DO needs Rand, the Dragon, to break the Wheel. This does not mean that Rand cannot be killed, but I would bet the DO would frown on it.
11
araqyl: 2003-05-21
Another issue here is that from all of the cases of TP being used, it is simply another form of power - like the difference between Saidin & Saidar, it is simply a different strength to do the same things in different ways.
So strength in the Power will limit anyone, whether they use Saidin/Saidar or the TP - Ishamael's strength was simply so much less than Rand's (especially with Callandor) that Rand could smack him about despite the difference in skill.
An example here would be an extremely skilled boxer up against someone ten times their size and a hundred times their strength and endurance - all the skill in the world won't help against overwhelming power.
