he Horn of Valere
by Callandor: 2003-01-26 | 6.4 out of 10 (5 votes)
I was just thinking about the Horn of Valere, and knowing that LTT is a Hero of the Horn I came up with a weird idea: What if Heroes who are already spun out are drawn to the sounder of the Horn?
Think about this. The one time that the Horn was blown is when Mat blew it at Falme in TGH. And who was there? Rand, who is LTT reborn.
In my mind, at the Last Battle, it has been in the Prophecies of the Dragon that the Horn will be at the Last Battle, the Heroes who have been reborn will take part in the Battle itself.
Well who has been reborn so far? Bridgette was torn out by Moggy, but she will almost certainly be there because she is Elaynes Warder. And then Gladial (sp) Cain, who has been reborn naturally. Now, with this there have also been debates at weather Mat and Perrin are Heroes as well, but lets just stay with who we know to be Heroes.
Now, MANY people used to think Olver was Cain reborn, and this would fit SOOO good with this theory because he always follows Mat around, but RJ said that Olver wasnt Cain so that is kinda sunk. But Im wondering if the Heroes are naturally drawn to the Horn if the sounder (Mat) has the Horn?
Ready, Steady, TEAR IT APART!
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1
Tamyrlin: 2003-01-27
Jordan has negated (if you trust signing information, which obviously isn't definitive) the idea that Olver can be Gaidal Cain. He said, in essence, what many of us have been saying, time cannot go backwards in T'A'R, it just moves either slower or faster. Your theory is that the Horn has some ability to draw physical reborn heroes (like Rand) to the sounder? I don't see it. Rand and Mat have been apart for a long period of time and Mat wasn't originally with Birgitte. In fact he was sent by Rand. It is more likely that Pattern has worked along with the Ta'veren to get everyone where they would go and that the Horn is benign. Just my thoughts.
2
jason wolfbrother: 2003-01-27
I have to agree with Tamyrlin on this one. I think that since we have only seen the Horn blown once we will need more information before we conjecture on the Horn being "drawn" to the sounder of the Horn. I think it is simply the pattern putting the right ta'averen pieces where it wants them to be.
3
Callandor: 2003-01-27
Im not saying that the Horn when sounded will just up and take the souls out of already reborn people, nothing like that at all.
In my mind the Horn itself seems to be like a Ta Veren. It draws ONLY the Heroes reborn to it like the Two Rivers people were drawn to Perrin in TSR.
Because the Horn is such an importnat thing in this world, and because that it wouldnt take the souls out of a Hero Beborns body, then the Hero themselves should be at the battle or wherever the Horn is used.
Only way I see that that would be possible, without the soul removing of course, would be for the Heroes to be around the Horn when it needed to be sounded.
4
jason wolfbrother: 2003-01-27
I think those Heroes will be there when the Horn is sounded but not because the Horn is sounded. Being who they are they will naturally be at the scene of the final battle. Them being there when the Horn is sounded is simply taking advantage of who you have fighting on your side. You want your best warriors fighting side by side with those they are most comfortable with. Mat, Perrin, and Rand all grew up together and know what to expect of each other. Birgette fought alongside Mat in Ebou Dar and they were the perfect team, guarding each other's backs. By their nature as ta'averen or Heroes they will be there to fight their battle. The Horn being sounded simply brings more Heroes(those still in TAR) to help out.(and maybe the wolves will somehow join the battle)
5
Callandor: 2003-01-31
That is exactly what I am saying. The Heroes are attracted to the Horn. They basically follow it till it is sounded, and are there when it is sounded to take place in the fighting.
6
cosmicpanda: 2003-01-31
Since LTT is a hero of the horn, and Rand is him reborn, does that mean that Rand could die but then come back when Mat blows the horn? There's a thought...
7
Great Lord of the Dark: 2003-02-26
Just a thought: If the Horn of Valere is supposed to be at the Last Battle, who will bring it there? Aren't Verin and Siuan and Leane the only ones who know where it is? See Verin's debriefing with Siuan in The Dragon Reborn.
8
Callandor: 2003-02-26
Mat is pretty sure that the Horn is still in Tar Valon, he remarks at it in TDR (dont have page numbers now sorry). So, if Egwene is successful in capturing Tar Valon or anything that ends this seige of Tar Valon and Mat is involved in it, ever that of him doing a repeat of ACOS when he just walked around aimlessly looking for the Bowl of the Winds, just this time looking for the Horn?
He is ta'veren.
9
Jiana: 2003-03-21
Well.... all of the above is very interesting, indeed. But has anyone thought of this: Whoever blows the Horn is bound to it until they die. Mat "died" AFTER he blew the Horn. He actually died twice, if you count Rahvin's balefire in tFoH, plus the foxes hanging him. Does this sever the tie he has to the Horn, and if so, how is that going to affect other things? Perhaps the Horn is not as "safe" as everyone thought.... I may have posted this before, but I can't remember. If I am repeating myself, I'll take a personal penance lol.
10
Callandor: 2003-03-22
RJ said that the balefiring of Rahvin completed the prophacy of Mat dying and living once more as a part of what was.
If thats the case then, because balefire undos what the person who got balefired actions, Mat should still be tied to the Horn. Although, we dont know if dying once, even if balefire erases the action, would cause the Horn to become used by anyone to call the dead heroes back.
However, it might not matter anyway. The people that know Mat sounded the Horn most likely dont know he even died, thats mostly reduced to Rands knowledge and prolly some flashback memories by the reversing like when Rand balefired the Darkhounds in Rhuidean. So then the people that want the Horn to be normal, to be able to call the heores back, they would still be after Mat. And the people that want Mat to be able to sound the Horn would give it to him for they know that only he can sound it for the heroes.
11
Jiana: 2003-04-13
Ok I am going to nitpick. There were Aiel present when Mat got balefired, and like everyone else, Aiel have Darkfriends among them. Also, we can't forget Asmodean, he was there also, and also got balefired... much good it did him to have it reversed. If Asmodean has been "reincarnated" by the DO (and we don't know if he has or hasn't), then Asmodean knows. A big "if", but if the Shadow knows that Mat is no longer tied to the Horn, they will not be after him as hotly as before.... they will be after the Horn. Of course they will still hunt Mat down just because of who he is, but not because of his connection to the HoV.
12
Callandor: 2003-04-14
Wrong. RJ has said that Asmodean will not be returning to the series at all.
13
araqyl: 2003-05-17
Unfortunately, the basic premise (based on Rand being there when Mat blew the Horn) falls apart immediately - Mat was there because Rand brought him & the Horn via the portal stone, Rand didn't suddenly appear when Mat thought of blowing the Horn.
Also, with the Horn being brought out - Leane is now (presumably) in the WT after failing to turn the chain into Cuendillar, and she has agents in TV who may be in a position to free her...
14
Callandor: 2003-05-17
Umm... where is it said in the theory that the Heroes who are drawn to it will suddenly just appear?
I said that the Heroes who have been reborn, who as far as we know won't answer the call of the Horn of Valere, follow the Horn around because they are drawn to it with a ta veren like effect. They just dont appear when its sounded with a puff of smoke.
15
Zader: 2004-06-23
Question. Is there a cure for bale fire. The DL believes not. Balefire a person who has previously balefired a person may work but I dont think so. Mat and the Aiel were not hit by balefire but by lightning(I think)
16
wattj69: 2004-06-23
balefire is supposed to exist "outside of paradox" so balefiring someone back to before he balefired someone else could be kinda confusing...on the one hand, he's burned out since before he launched the balefire, but on the other, it exists somewhat out of time, and not only that, but can a thread in the pattern be recreated after being burned out? it would be a situation that just gets rather difficult to explain...
17
Anubis: 2004-06-23
do you mean that when the horn is blow, the heroes that are alive will have naturally wandered to the battle, like in TDR? I suppose it may be possible. A simpler explination would be that if the pattern is using the horn, there is somthing serious enough going on to warrant all heroes being present.
18
Callandor: 2004-06-23
It depends on the strength. If person A balefires person B, then person C balefires person A with a weave strong enough to burn back the time till when person B was not balefired, they would come back.
You would like it to be that simple, wouldn't you? ;)
However, from the WoT FAQ on balefire:
**But, contrariwise, Paul Ward received a letter from RJ (dated March 2000) in which he stated, "The balefire weave exists wholly or partly outside time, which removes it from its own effect."**
So, even if person C balefired person A with a weave strong enough to burn back the time, person B is still dead. Sorry!
19
Davian93: 2004-06-23
****balefire is supposed to exist "outside of paradox" so balefiring someone back to before he balefired someone else could be kinda confusing****
Not that confusing. Simply put, it wouldnt work. Balefiring someone who balefired someone else wouldnt make a difference. Outside the paradox is outside the paradox. You cannot bring back threads that were burnt away.
20
Callandor: 2004-06-27
**do you mean that when the horn is blow, the heroes that are alive will have naturally wandered to the battle, like in TDR?**
Yes, that's pretty much it. However, I personally have pretty much given up on this theory, as I believe all recent events are effects of Rand, Mat, and Perrin, or people going off what they started.
The Horn acting as a "ta'veren" is an offshoot of that, but incorrect in my mind.
21
charliec: 2004-06-29
Yeah, it's like the problem of someone balefiring their own foot...
but instead of some paradox, all that would happen is that they would unexpectedly disappear, without much explanation...
22
sburch: 2004-08-01
Hawkwing says in TGH that the horn calls the heroes but they follow the banner and the dragon. So Rand pretty much has to be there when the horn is blown. This could also have something to do with the shadow wanting Rand turned instead of killed.
23
Saldean Farm Boy: 2004-08-02
I think the pattern pulls the horn to where it is needed. I do not think that the horn is like the ring in Lord of the Rings. When the pattern pulls the horn to where it needs, it would make sense that any heros reborn might be around to save the day.
Here is my question about the horn. Was it used in the age of legends? If so why haven't we heard any stories about it? If not then, why wasn't it?
24
Callandor: 2004-08-03
**Was it used in the age of legends? If so why haven't we heard any stories about it? If not then, why wasn't it?**
It wasn't used at all.
**Question:
Was the Horn of Valere known and used in the Age of Legends? Or did it only appear in the Third Age?
Robert Jordan Answers:
The Horn of Valere was known in the Age of Legends, though it was an artifact of an earlier age, but it was never used in the Age of Legends. In part, this was because there wasn't any need in an Age that knew universal peace, but also it was because what it could do was considered a sort of myth by most people in that Age. No one who is serious spends time trying to test out whether a myth might be real. (Seen anybody sacrificing a white bull to Jupiter lately?) And once the Dark One touched the world, before the War of the Shadow actually began, the Horn was among the items lost, and thought destroyed, in the first rush of mob violence, terrorism etc. So it wasn't available for use then even had someone wanted to try. It was later recovered and sealed up with the Dragon Banner because along with the Foretellings that made up the Prophecies of the Dragon was one saying that it must be.
In any case, the story of the Horn was carried on through the Age of Legends in the same way that myths are today, and magnified thereafter though the twisting that occurs in the telling and retelling of a story. And believe me, stories about the Dragon Reborn and the Prophecies and everything concerned with them were rife during the Breaking. When everything is going to hell around them, people cling to anything and everything that might offer hope. That is how the Breaking could end with tales of the Dragon Reborn and the Prophecies already on many peoples' lips.**
