Tamyrlin: 2000-11-14

Not Sammael, Cyndane says this person was channeling Saidar. Lanfear also mentions that this person doesn't know how to do something with her weaves so when cut they rebounded back to her...which, if you ask me, disqualifies her from being Chosen, or anyone old.

Could this be Moiraine? Verin attacks her so she would have to defend herself. I don't know.

oldmanfish: 2002-11-06

Ummm... Not to be too obvious, but how about Graendal, masking her ability? She's always been the hot blonde wearing streith in all the other books, why not now?!?

Fel Swoop: 2002-12-24

I am reading this late at night, so bare with me if my logic isn't up to par. But I seem to lean toward this golden-haired women of mystery being someone other than the favored Graendal. More specifically, I think this person was Sammael. First off, Rand and everyone else seems to believe that Sammy is dead. Without any other evidence to the contrary, lets assume this is the case. Now the DO has been known in the past to bring back the forsaken as a member of the opposite sex after death, but they still channel their original half of the power. I believe that such could be the case with sammael, explaining why verin couldn't see the flows. Also, it was mentioned before in the series (i don't know when exactly) that sammy had a catche of stuff from the AOL. Assuming that a streith gown was one of the things he found, after being reicarnated as a girl, his female logic clearly pursuaded him to find something pretty to wear. This would be a reasonable time for sammael to show up for the first time since being reincarnated, seeing as he REALLY hates Rand now.

I know it is easier to assume that because of the streith, it is graendal, seeing as she as been the only character thus far to don that particualar apparel. However, with Jordan naming off all of the other forsaken that were at that battle, and even giving hints to unknown characters (lanfear/cyndane), why then would he keep graendal's prescence so shady?

This was kinda a stream of conciousness thing, so don't mind me if it's way off.

Tigraine: 2002-12-25

Remember, shortly after Sammaels "disappearance," Graendal quickly Traveled over to Illian and took almost everything from his stasis box cache as soon as she could, even with Rand and his Asha'man nearby. She didn't want any link going back to her, thusly Sammael wouldn't have his *angreal to rely upon.

Also, it's remarked somewhere if I remember correctly that early in the series, Graendal also found a stasis box, but it was only filled with a bolt of streith fabric and some AoL junk. Sammael is the only other stasis holder that we know of, and he doesn't remark that he has any streith to give to Graendal.

By these items alone, it should make it pretty clear that Graendal has the streith, Graendal has the jewelry/*angreal, and Sammael, if respun, has nothin' ;)

Oh, and I believe that Aran'gar/Balthamel was reincarnated as a woman because he used to be a lecher and the Dark One found it humorous to put him in the body of that which he desired. Would that mean that Sammael might be respun as someone very tall due to his dislike of his shortness? An Aiel maybe? Just a thought.

silverwolf: 2002-12-29

Just thought I'd point out that Graendal was at the meeting where the forsaken talked about the Choedan Kal--Demandred noticed her plain, golden ring (her angreal), and he thought that she overreacted to news of Rand having the access key.

Graendalboytoy: 2003-02-10

In the quoted scene, Verin does say that the woman was holding Saidar,and that no light was shining around her. Since Verin mentioned Saidar explicitly it is safe to assume that the woman was channeling saidar, but just masking her strength in the power.

illuvatar7: 2003-08-12

Verin could have been wrong - the woman could have been holding saidin after all. Verin felt neither the weaves nor the fact that the "woman" was holding the power. However, I assumed it was Graendal at first too, and I still maintain it, since there is nowhere else that she would be accounted for, and she was at the meeting to discuss the Choedan Kal. Where would Sammael get so many gems, too, and why would he wear them to a battle? Very unlike him.

Cyndane very clearly battles Alivia, as Cyndane remarks that the woman is "plainly dressed in wool" - a far cry from streith. There is also the smaller distinction between golden and yellow in the descriptions of their hair. This confusion came about mainly because both Alivia and the golden-haired woman are strong in the power and covered in jewellry. This does not explain how her weaves were invisible though.

mako0424: 2004-05-18

she couldnt see the weves because they were inverted, and so was the fact that granedal was holding saidar, and her strength with saidar, Verin is surprised because remember, even though the main characters are slowly learning these weaves, regular Aes Sedai still know nothing about some of the AOL weaves, such as inverting or covering one's potential with the Source.

Genshai Dahan: 2004-05-20

This mysterious woman was Aranger(Balthamel in a Female Body) from what i can remember, there is an Ashaman in this circle with Verin, and he realises that this WOMAN is holding Saidin. He even shouts this out. That is why Verin could not seee the glow

snakes-n-foxes: 2004-05-20

aye, it always seemed to me that Graendal had simply masked her ability and inverted her weaves and stuck a shield up.

If you are approaching an unknown quantity/enemy...then showing all your strength as you approach would be remarkably silly (you would most certainly want the enemy to underestimate you - which is something Graendal is specifically known for)

And I quite agree on the streith argument - Graendal owns the only known streith.

Far Dareis Mai: 2004-07-14

Where would Sammael get streith? Or Aran'gar for that matter? Graendal is the only one we know of who wears streith.

brother of Battles: 2004-07-14

An Asha'man wasn't with Verin. The Asha'man you are referring to is named Eben and he was with the circle being lead by Daigian since she bonded him her Warder.(WH Cp.35 pg.755-757). The Forsaken you are referring to is Arangar/Halima.

I also think that the golden haired women was not Sammael, but it was in fact Graendal. If Sammael was placed in a women's body, I don't see him being comfortable enough so quickly to not only start dressing like a women, but also to the attitude of a woman. His pride is much too big for him to do that so quickly.

Analem: 2005-03-29

The mysterious woman is semirhage and although verin doesn't sense/feel the flows being woven because the flows are inverted. The dress that is changing gives it away as semirhage's dress due to it showing her mood.

TheJester: 2005-03-30

Hi all been a while.

I thought I'd post this quote from the question of the week spot on the tor website:

*Semirhage was present at Shadar Logoth, though not seen. **You didn't see Graendal**, either, though admittedly Moghedien thought of her, thinking it would be good if she or Cyndane died. If I always tried to show everyone who was present at a battle or the like, the books would be a LOT longer than they are now. And those battles would get rather boring, a list of names. Go down the checklist and make sure everyone gets mentioned. Boring. Anyway, **Mesaana was the ~only~ one who tried to sit it out**. By the way, Moridin also was not present, for reasons that will become self-evident as you read on. *

So this puts a bit of a spanner in the works for those that say it was Graendal, as Jordan says he didn't write about her (that is unless he forgot about her :p [I'm leaning towrad that opinion myself] So taking facts as they stand The mysterious woman wasn't Graendal, Mesaana, Semhirage or Moghedien as they either wern't written about, didn't take part or were cowards and sat on the sidelines.

Does anyone have a complete description of Cyndane??

Jalwin Moerad: 2005-03-30

First, I'm going to record the statement that Verin makes: "The woman was already embracing saidar, though no light shone around her, and she was immensely strong!" (Winter's Heart, With the Choedan Kal)

One- This statement cannot prove either that saiden or saidar was used by the mysterious woman, only that Verin believes it to have been saidar.

Two-Can weaves be masked during a battle? I don't believe so, because then every Forsaken would. Although I can't find the passage, I know Mesanna made weaves appear out of thin air, but they were visible once she wove them. Verin can't see these weaves, however: "Verin could not see the weaves, but she kinew when she was fighting off an attack on her life, and she had come too far to die here." (Winter's Heart, With the Choedan Kal)

Three- If the woman is not someone from the third age, then the most obvious answer is that she was Moridin. All other males are accounted for and as far as we are aware, no one has been reeincarnated, leaving only Moridin.

Callandor: 2005-03-30

**The mysterious woman is semirhage and although verin doesn't sense/feel the flows being woven because the flows are inverted. The dress that is changing gives it away as semirhage's dress due to it showing her mood.**

That's Graendal. Semirhage wears black. But you have the right reason, wrong name is all :)

Traveller: 2005-08-01

In answer to Tigraine- I think that the DO has a twisted sense of humour, so he wouldn't give Sammael the body he has always wanted, he would make him into an even shorter person just to punish him for "failing"

Priest: 2005-08-01

I don't think this woman can be Sammael, RJ has stated that Sammael is dead in this interview: http://www.cnn.com/COMMUNITY/ transcripts/2000/12/12/jordan/index.html

Question from Arsolos: It has been reported that you have confirmed that Sammael died at the end of Crown of Swords. Could you confirm that you have said this and elaborate on whether Rand was correct?

Robert Jordan: Mashadar killed Sammael. Sammael is toast!

therobotbadger: 2005-08-02

RJ has confirmed that Sammael is dead, but there's no reason he could not have been transmigrated, possibly into a female body. His death isn't a barrier to this theory.

Baean AimaDe: 2005-08-03

And if asked at the end of Book 1 About Balthamel and aginor Robert Jordan would have replied the Same.

Also , Consider the similarity to Verin fighting off the unknown type of attacks with Lanfear Slicing Rand's attacks in ( I think ) TDR. Same kind of wording.

I'm working my way back through the books , But I believe I also recall somewhere that a saidar user DID mask their weaves while weaving , but I could be wrong.

Most Likely it's Graendal, But a Male user is still a possibility ( if small )

Callandor: 2005-08-03

**RJ has confirmed that Sammael is dead, but there's no reason he could not have been transmigrated, possibly into a female body. His death isn't a barrier to this theory.**

It is actually.

**Q: Is Sammael dead dead, or 'he will never return dead'?

A: Sammael? Sammael is dead. He's dead. He could be reborn. In another life. Eithout knowing anything of Sammael. He's not going to be reincarnated, he's not going to show up again.**

Sammael is not returning to the series.

silverwolf: 2005-09-26

RJ has stated in a Q&A that the flows appear to originate from the channeler--when Mesaana makes flows appear "out of nowhere" it indicates that the flows were invisible to begin with and only became visible so she could teach Alviarin, not that they appeared as soon as woven. If you don't like this example (which I admit, if I didn't think the woman was Graendal, this example wouldn't hold much weight with me), then how about when Demandred arrived at the battle? He had inverted the first gateway as a precaution, seeming to believe that this would prevent others from detecting his use of saidin, and even after it was obviously detected (explosions and such around the gateway), he thought that "they" (Cadsuane and the rest) must have a ter'angreal that detects a man's channeling. Based on this, it must be assumed that there is a way to hide weaves of the one power even as they are being channeled, but it must require extra effort or be a Talent since not all of the Forsaken appear to make use of it.

Last of all, although RJ said we don't see Graendal at the battle, I think he meant that we don't see her point of view. No other character fits the description given.

Callandor: 2005-09-26

**Based on this, it must be assumed that there is a way to hide weaves of the one power even as they are being channeled, but it must require extra effort or be a Talent since not all of the Forsaken appear to make use of it.**

There is, and it's called reversing. As far as we know it's not a Talent, and all the Forsaken can do it, it just depends on the circumstances if they need to or want to go to the added work (it's probably not the largest of great tasks, but more than simply channeling flows).

Canan Urgas: 2006-04-19

mesaana inverting her weaves. think about it-whenever alviarin goes to see mesaana theres the light-and-shadow image and she cant see the weaves. alot of aes sedai mask the fact that they can channel and invet their weaves now, plus at the forsaken meetings mesaana (or is it graendal?) wears that colour shifting thing.

Callandor: 2006-04-19

Graendal wears the streith gowns. And at the Cleansing, it was not Mesaana, since she was punished for not showing up at the Cleansing attack. The woman Verin saw and fought was Graendal.

Dicetime: 2007-11-07

At one point Cyndane talks about her experience with the Aelfinn, so wouldn't that point to a damaged and changed Lanfear?

Davian93: 2007-11-26

The woman described in the original post was clearly Greandal. The descriptions match perfectly. As for Cyndane being Lanfear...well Duh!

Brian Sedai: 2011-03-26

The streith-clothed woman is almost certainly Graendal.

First of all, it's highly unlikely that she would be absent from the battle of Shadar Logoth. She knows Rand has the Choedan Kal and needs to impress the Dark One, and there is no reason she would stay out of the fight.

Second, there are many possibilities for why Verin can't see the weaves. Graendal probably simply has them inverted to avoid detection. She has also been searching for ter'angreal from the AOL, and it's possible she has one of these to create a similar effect.

It's too unlikely that Sammael reincarnated would fit the physical description of Graendal and happen to be wearing streith. He may be alive, but he isn't the gold haired woman at the end of Winter's Heart.

Wheel Philosoph: 2011-03-29

GENSHAI DAHAN: 2004-05-20
This mysterious woman was Aran'gar(Balthamel in a Female Body) from what i can remember, there is an Ashaman in this circle with Verin, and he realises that this WOMAN is holding Saidin. He even shouts this out. That is why Verin could not seee the glow.

^ I think he's got it right...