emale forsaken cannot hide as Aes Sedai
by Jumai: 2004-09-15 | 2.67 out of 10 (6 votes)
Ok, I don't have any direct quotes to support this, it's mostly conjecture, and pretty flimsy. But I thought I'd toss it out there. It comes down to two facts, essentially.
All the forsaken are far too strong not to occasion comment by any Aes Sedai. Remember that men cannot judge each other's strength unless the man being judged holds as much saidin as he can (they sense the strain and know it's their limit) but women can, jsut by being close.
The weave that hides the ability to channel seems to be binary. This has not really been dwelled upon, but my thoughts run thus; Graendal knows EXACTLY how strong Lanfear is (as evidenced by her POVs dealing with Cyndane), something Lanfear would doubtless have hidden had it been possible.
In addition, Alviarin (I will have to find a quote for this, I am partway through another reread of the full series) suspects a woman in the tower of being Mesaana. I cannot call to mind a single instance in which she excludes servants and the like from her speculation, nor can I remember her seriously considering any sister.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2004-11-24
(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
This theory is solely based on the assumption that masking one's ability to channel is binary. If it isn't, then the deduction is faulty.
There are Alviarin quotes you can use for your theory. I'll leave them to you to discover.
2
Callandor: 2004-11-24
**The weave that hides the ability to channel seems to be binary. This has not really been dwelled upon, but my thoughts run thus; Graendal knows EXACTLY how strong Lanfear is (as evidenced by her POVs dealing with Cyndane), something Lanfear would doubtless have hidden had it been possible.**
Don't know what you mean by binary, but there is a weave that hides ability to channel, as well as strength.
Examples:
1. Lanfear posing as Else in the Tower (confirmed as Lanfear). This shows the reduction in strength instead of total hiding.
2. Lanfear in the Waste. Totally unknown to any channeler (Rand, Moiraine, Egwene, Wise Ones, Aviendha), hence, totally undetected even by female channelers.
3. Elayne and Nynaeve in Ebou Dar. They left the palace in search of the Bowl of the Winds, with facial desguises as well as totally hiding the ability to channel.
4. Plus, it's a fact that Mesaana is hiding in the Tower. Graendal knows it, and we have been show this. However she is doing it, whatever her position, she is doing it. She IS there, and her strength hasn't pointed the sounding alarm to her.
3
davood: 2004-11-25
Well, the ability isnt binary, because lanfear uses something that makes her seem weaker, as elsie grinwell right?
4
jaellon: 2004-11-27
** Don't know what you mean by binary... **
If I may put words in your mouth, Jumai, it means that one can either completely hide the ability to channel, or not at all...there is not partial masking.
** 1. Lanfear posing as Else in the Tower (confirmed as Lanfear). This shows the reduction in strength instead of total hiding. **
** Well, the ability isnt binary, because lanfear uses something that makes her seem weaker, as elsie grinwell right? **
Keep in mind, though, that Egwene, Elayne, and Nynaeve were all brand new...if they didn't know how to recognize the ability to channel yet (which has been demonstrated by other posters by the fact that Egwene learns in a later book to recognize a certain "kinship" between her and Avhienda), then Lanfear wouldn't have needed to mask her ability. This evidence doesn't really prove partial masking took place.
** The weave that hides the ability to channel seems to be binary. This has not really been dwelled upon, but my thoughts run thus; Graendal knows EXACTLY how strong Lanfear is (as evidenced by her POVs dealing with Cyndane), something Lanfear would doubtless have hidden had it been possible.**
I can imagine all kinds of scenarios where Lanfear would either want to mask her ability to channel completely, show her full strength, or mask it partially. So I don't think Graendal _necessarily_ knows how strong Cyndane is...but she might.
So, the theory basically comes down to Frenzy's point: In order to pose as an Aes Sedai, a female forsaken must be able to partially mask her ability. I see no reason why they wouldn't be able to. You just need to know how to make the right weave.
5
a dragonburned fool: 2004-11-30
I personally believe that Mesaana cannot be anyone of the AS, but this particular argument can not work.
Once Jordan was asked in an interview, can a channeler make her look like less strong in Power than she is. Jordan RAFOed it. In Thus spake the Creator they report hat later Jordan said "yes" to the same answer, but they don't give the quote to it. Usually Thus spake the Creator is reliable source, so it's hightly possibly that RJ really said that "yes". But even if he doesn't, the "binary" nature of the weave to hide the channeling ability is at least far from being obvious.
6
Callandor: 2004-11-30
**Keep in mind, though, that Egwene, Elayne, and Nynaeve were all brand new...if they didn't know how to recognize the ability to channel yet (which has been demonstrated by other posters by the fact that Egwene learns in a later book to recognize a certain "kinship" between her and Avhienda), then Lanfear wouldn't have needed to mask her ability. This evidence doesn't really prove partial masking took place.**
Lanfear was able to go around the entire White Tower as Else. That is more then enough proof.
If that is not enough, for which it should be:
Washington, D.C., 20 November, 1998:
**RJ said that a channeller can hide strength as well as ability to channel, but added that 1) few people know how to do it, and 2) the AS don't even know these tricks are possible.**
**Q: Was Else always Lanfear?
RJ: No. Else did exist as a separate human but was played by Lanfear after Else was expelled.**
Sorry, but hiding ability is one thing; hiding strength another. They are not "binary" or all or nothing weaves.
7
scion2: 2004-12-01
From what we know of Messana (ie. she was a teacher) I can't see her in any role other than as Aes Sedai. As for Graendal knowing how strong Lanfaer is: why would Lanfaer try to hide her power? I was under the impression that Lanfaer was very proud of her great strength and that it would stand to reason for her to show off her strength (especially to her competition).
I think the best way to decide what role the Forsaken play in the Tower, is to look at their character, Lanfaer could have been anyone, she is not too proud, after all, to portray herself as a large woman in SR, but Mesana has character flaws that I think would prevent her from even concidering the facade of a lowly servant.
8
Traveller: 2005-07-21
It seems to me that the Forsaken can just as easily hide a little of their strength as the whole of the ability to channel.
In addition, Alviarin (I will have to find a quote for this, I am partway through another reread of the full series) suspects a woman in the tower of being Mesaana.
I don't remember Alviarin mentioning that she has any idea of who Mesaana could be, and also I believe that Alviarin thinks that Mesaana is an important AS, as she seems to think that no one "less important" than herself could order her artound, and I believe that she extnds this too Mesaana: Mesaana couldn'' tell her what to do unless she was acting as a major AS.
9
Karasien: 2005-09-15
I think that the qoute that you are looking for refers to when Alviarin glimpses the hem of a brown or copper colored silk skirt at the bottom of Mesaana's disguise, as she turned..... I will try to find the quote....
10
Karasien: 2005-09-15
The quote (I think) you are looking for:
~"I did not tell you to have Elaida... beaten," thtat voice of crystal chimes said. "Do you rise above yourself?"
Alviarin flung herself from her knees on to her belly before the woman who seemed made of dark shadows and silvery light. Seizins the hem of Mesaana's dress, she rained kisses on it. The weave of Illusion-it must be that, though she could not see a single thread of saidaranymore than she could sense the ability to channel in the woman who stood over her-did not hold completely, with her frantically shifting the skirts edge. Flickers of bronze silk with a thin border on intricately embroidered black scrollwork.~tPoD Ch 26 Pg 565 (paperback)
Roughly half a page later
~But she did file away a tidbit for herself. A trivial matter or not Mesaana did not know everything that happened in the White Tower. And Alviarin would keep her eyes open for a sister in bronze skirts borderd on the hem in black scroll work. Mesaana was hiding in the Tower, and knowledge was power.~tPoD Ch 25, Pg 566 (paperback)
(I would have encluded the rest but blah blah blah, I was bad punish me blah blah blah, was just to much with a teething baby screaming in your lap.)
I think that Alviarin immedeatly assumes a SISTER because of the Silk skirt. (Bleh, she's still screaming, must find baby orajel)
