1
Tamyrlin: 2001-01-06
Slayer, this sounds like a possibility. He could get in and out through T'A'R as long as he knew how to identify Sheriam's tent. But...the OP, she could stop him with it unless he has some type of protection like Mat's medallion. Although, I don't see Slayer working with Aes Sedai, he seems to be more of a special projects type of guy, why not a Forsaken before Slayer?
2
Eilonwy: 2002-11-17
The only way that I can reconcile the events with the grey man and the events with the rebels is if she were turned against her will. Is it possible for someone to be turned but still hold their free will? If so, then that would explain the torture.
3
venusian: 2002-11-22
It is also possible that, if Sheriam is Black Ajah, against her will or otherwise, whoever she works under tortures her for the sheer pleasure of it.
4
Elder Haman: 2003-02-20
Well, Slayer can't be the one torturing Sheriam because she's tortured with the one power - and slayer can't channel.
I think Sheriam is not Black because as she's being tortured she thinks to herself that she wishs she hadn't told anyone about what Egwene had done (forcing Sheriam to swear to her). I think Sheriam told someone she thought she could trust and that person turned out to be Black Ajah.
5
Dedicated: 2003-02-20
I don't think Sheriam is BA. She is being tortured by a BA (possibly Delana) and is readily giving info to the BA, but not of her own accord. Sheriam is scared right now, because Egwene's suggested aliance with the Black Tower goes against the plans of the Shadow. The Shadow knows that if the BT and the Salidar AS join together, it spells major problems for the dark. The dark has major influence in the tower. Even if Elaida knows that Alviarin is BA, it doesn't do her any good. Shaidar Haran (the DO's avatar) knows what's going on and will take steps to counter it (thus Egwene's kidnapping).
Sheriam almost passed out when Egwene suggested an alliance between Salidar AS and the BT. This may indicate that Sheriam knows the BA's plans knows she will be punished if the plans are not carried out. The alliance is a BAD thing for the Shadow. Male and female AS working together is the last thing the Shadow wants. Male and female AS working together spells doom for the Shadow.
6
Great Lord of the Dark: 2003-02-26
Sheriam Bayanar is Black as night.
She wasn't turned because you need 13 channelers, and we know none of the Blacks but Alviarin know the entire list of Blacks. It would be too risky to go to the trouble of a secret turning to the Dark ceremony so you can turn...Sheriam? You do this to Siuan or Elaida, or anyone you have an inkling will be VITAL to the Dark's interests. Not Sheriam. Why not Pevara or anyone else? The Black Ajah's main objective is to remain hidden, at all costs, while doing small things to serve the Dark.
That said, Sheriam's knowledge of turning people against their will, and the Grey Man incident in the Tower raise suspiscion. But Slayer put the second Grey man in her bed! A reminder to a Black Sister not to fail next time, delivered by Slayer's employer. Punishment in Salidar for failing to learn Egwene's plans, delivered by Halima or Delana (it has to be someone with the rebels since she hides her face from Sheriam). Plus, her reactions in Crossroads of Twilight point to her anticipating having to pay the price for failure.
If she were serving against her will, don't you think she would have realized Egwene is the real deal and blabbed the whole story to get her protection. Wouldn't being subservient to Egwene be better than betaen at the hands of Darkfriends? Unless she really was Black and believed the Shadow will win.
Good call Scott.
7
stromgard: 2003-07-16
I can't recall how the second gray man died... but why on Earth would Slayer or any darkfriend leave a dead gray man in Sheriam's bed if she's the highest ranking (Mistress of Novices) BA in the WT? Might as well aim a spotlight on her!
Besides, we know that Slayer only killed ONE of the two gray men.
And Sheriam is also bound by her oath, which means she can't be a BA, since they can break any oath.
Plus: Circumstancial evidence: RJ exposes BA to the readers very swiftly (inside a book or so). Liandrin's 13, Alviarin, Galina, Katerine, Elza, Delana etc. are all known BA to the readers although unknown in Randland. The only unknown BA is (one or more of) Merilille, Careane and/or Sareitha.
That a AS is not BA doesn't make her anything near harmless. Verin, Cadsuane, Moiraine, Siuan and Elaida are not BA, only very, very dangerous. Verin was only seconds from actually poisoning Cadsuane in WH, for example.
Shouldn't RJ start to kill off BA:s soon, BTW? It seems that Galina has live far too long, as have Liandrin, and Katerine, and Jeaine, and Merillin and... Let the PURGE begin! Personally, considering who they are and what they have done, I hope Elaida, Egwene and Cadsuane join forces, find and capture every single living BA, and burn them at the stake!
IMHO, killing a BA amount to taking down a rabid animal, and should give one as much bad consience as swatting a fly!
Final thought: I don't think Egwene was betrayed to (or by) the BA, but to Elaida. Final thought 2: WHY are the heads of the Ajahs in WT meeting in secret, and WHY have too young Sitters been chosen in WT and in Salidar?
8
rubbernilly: 2003-07-17
Mistress of Novices to the AS does not mean that she necessarily stands above the other sisters in their Black Ajah Hearts.
I suspect that just like Old Cully, the beggar, is put above many a nobleman darkfriend, so too does the AS ranking have very little to do with the BA ranking.
9
Machera: 2003-07-17
OK dudes lets say sheriam is black but lets say she let the grey men into the tower and killed the one that one of the girls captured wit the op. But the other grey man was put in sheriams chamber by slayer to scare her because the grey man failed and she was seen.But it could be delana or one of the others punishing Shereiam because they feel she is holding out on them or slayer could be bringing on of the other BA with him . Or maybe the BA is scared that sheriam will confide in Egwene with time so she is continuaslly beaten because sheriam was said to have a lot of spirit maybe she thinks to much of herself and is screwing things up because of her ego?? But how do we know slayer can't chanel or have a specail power wich lets him do things that no normal person can do
10
Callandor: 2003-07-17
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 30 - To Heal Again
Delana fixed her with a hard stare. "Who do you think you are, woman? However high you think you stand, none stand higher than Aes Sedai. And where did you learn that sign?" For perhaps the first time in her life, that stare did no good.
Halima smiled at her mockingly. "Do you really think the secrets of the .. .shall we say, darker Ajah, are that secret? As for how high you stand, you know very well that if a beggar gave the proper signs, you would leap to obey.**
Social standings are put to crap with Darkfriends and BA. As said above, if a begger gave the signs, a high standing Aes Sedai would leap to obey.
11
Jiana: 2003-08-06
If Sheriam is being tortured by another Black sister...hmmm. Someone mentioned earlier that the person doing the torturing seems to enjoy it. Does anyone know where Temaile Kinderode is at that time?
Also, just a thought... the Aes Sedai hierarchy is pretty complicated, younger deferring to older in some situations, and in others, sisters with lesser strength in the OP deferring to those with greater. How much more complicated is it within a BA heart?
12
Rhodric: 2003-08-07
in addition to what Jiana mentioned, there is also the time spent as novice/apprentice, how long an AS has been AS. in a BA heart there is probably these things as well as how long an AS has been BA, how "high up" they stand, number of tasks carried out due to orders etc.
yes it's pretty darn complicated. and fun! ;p
13
Mairashda: 2003-08-07
there is an interesting symmetry if you look at the dark one's arrangements within the three towers:
the amyrlin (or whatever their leader is called) is a non-darkfriend but the keeper/m'hael, who controls day-to-day life is deep down that road. the keeper however is supervised by a forsaken who poses as somebody somewhere inside the tower.
14
juitzhead: 2003-08-07
"Does anyone know where Temaile Kinderode is at that time? "
temaile is in Caemlyn plotting something with the rest of the BA sisters that Moggy abandoned. No where near the SAS and she doesnt know how to travel.
15
Anubis: 2003-08-09
um... i thought it was pretty obvious that sheriam was being tortured by halima.
16
Sensir: 2003-11-16
The BA and WT hierarchys are pretty basic. Respect. Cadusaine (err w/e) has a lot fo respect for her heroism and she is very widly known not only does she have a powerfulness in channeling. I think it mostly comes down to loyalty respect and power in the BA. That is excluding the fact that respect is power.
17
clocklotion: 2005-05-17
First of all I don't think that Sheriam is Black Ajah. There is simply not enough evidence to support the theory. The Grayman with the crossbow incident is easily explained off as this: Sheriam seeing a man with a crossbow running down the halls of Tar Valon suddenly frozen in the Air, reacts on instinct and stabs him to death not just in self-defense but also to avoid him somehow escaping (can Gray men be interrogated?). She makes no comment about her killing him because Nynaeve and Egwene are ACCEPTED. Regardless of the fact that Nynaeve and Egwene are powerful and all that nonsense, they are still Accepted. Does an Aes Sedai much less the Mistress of Novices have to explain herself to two that might not even make it to her station? Secondly in Path of Daggers as she enters her tent in the rebel camp she is shielded and then beaten and interrogated. Black Ajah and the Forsaken have not used this method to get information from their own. They use by far more complicated and more 'subtle' techniques to extract information. They invoke the DO oaths, fear and compulsion. Most importantly, Dark Friends are usually more than willing to give up their information to Forsaken or 'higher uppers' than them. Who does use physical abuse to torture and interrogate? Doesnt the scene kind of sound like somebody is switching Sheriam? Who uses the switch? The sul'dam and the damane. Is Sheriam being interrogated and possibly threatened by the Seanchan?
18
clocklotion: 2005-05-29
someone please respond and let me know what you think of this one :D
19
TheJester: 2005-05-30
what I am wonderign is that we know that the tower has split in three, Elaida, Egwene and for now neutrals, that seem to be sitting on the side lines.
The second puzzle that is connected to the Aes Sedai is that of the young sister that are both in Elaida's hall and Egwene.
It has been mentioned I believe in either POD or WH by Elayne that the sister seem to come to an inn stay for a while then move on.
It has been suggested that these sisters are couriering information to each other.
There is of course the rumoured and theorised purple/gold/Dragon Ajah.
We also know that certain powerful/respected Aes Sedai have cliques of trusted and valued Aes Sedai, ie. Cadsuane she has Daigan and co that she uses to get cetain information that she will use against other sisters.
I am not saying that these sisters are connected to Cadsuane some may be and some may be sitting out. We know that Cadsuane started gathering all the sisters she trusted around her from one of her POVs.
If there is another respected Aes Sedai or other powerful person that I shall call the Leader as she may not be Aes Sedai, my belief that this group may exist is in the blurb for Knife of Dreams:-
"Yet as their numbers have dwindled, a secret society has been hiding under the White Tower's very nose. A society rich in power that could make all the difference in the final conflict..."
I have heard that some say that this is the Kin, but I cannot believe that the Kin were the only secret society to hide from the Aes Sedai as they have been proven to be too complacent when it comes to Channelers.
We have:
The Kin
Windfinders
Aiel Wise Ones
One more group would hardly be noticed since at least 2 have keep themselves too well hidden for Aes Sedai to be aware of and the Kin were able to gide thier true size.
So to the point I believe that there is a Leader organising all these groups of Aes Sedai and maybe another society but has connections to both towers and as a society they have thier own agenda, probably to see the last battle won.
I believe this group like Egwene's tower sent it's own ferrets into both camps to retireve information and as such are reporting back. And to get information about each tower has it's young sisters in each hall.
It is this group that is beating Sheriam as Egwene is a wild card that is not under thier control and could ruin thier plans if they don't know what she is planning.
20
JakOShadows: 2005-05-30
clocklotion: The Sheriam situation is fairly confusing and I really don't know if she's BA or not. But how would the Seanchan sneak into her tent and start torturing her if they are seen nowhere else in the book. I rather think of it as someone like a Myrrdael or a covert operative like Slayer. You right that one of the forsaken would not use that method to get information. But there's another thing you have to think about here. What if she did something wrong. For example, if she were BA and she didn't do what ever task was needed. Since their plan was screwed up by her, they would beat her, and she would plead and beg and maybe give up some information to gain their respect back. So she ended up giving them information and it was an unintended side effect that would help the BA.
I do think the BA set the trap for Egwene though, because she was messing up their plans for the division of the WT. Sheriam may or may not be BA, but I think either way she ended up helping the BA in their plan. She was the only one close enough to Egwene to know about the plan and that she was thinking about doing it herself.
21
Callandor: 2005-05-30
**It has been suggested that these sisters are couriering information to each other.**
No, I believe those sisters were a mixing bunch of 51 Aes Sedai who went and "attacked" the Black Tower.
**"Yet as their numbers have dwindled, a secret society has been hiding under the White Tower's very nose. A society rich in power that could make all the difference in the final conflict..."**
This synopsis was a fake -- and obviously so, since the information was applicable back in ACOS.
**It is this group that is beating Sheriam as Egwene is a wild card that is not under thier control and could ruin thier plans if they don't know what she is planning.**
Not a chance in my opinion ;)
**But there's another thing you have to think about here. What if she did something wrong. For example, if she were BA and she didn't do what ever task was needed. Since their plan was screwed up by her, they would beat her, and she would plead and beg and maybe give up some information to gain their respect back. So she ended up giving them information and it was an unintended side effect that would help the BA.**
Black Ajah that fail in tasks are removed from tasks and subsiquently punished -- or outright killed. See Falion and Liandrin for punishments, and Jarna Malari for deaths.
However, you're looking at it if Sheriam is Black Ajah being tortured by Forsaken. There is also the possiblity she is a Light-follower, and being tortured by a Black Ajah ~for~ information to give a Forsaken. Whether the Black Ajah was under orders from the Forsaken to do is really inconsequential, except to establish a more detailed motive (was it an actual order, or simply a Black Aes Sedai looking for improvement under Forsaken eyes?, etc.).
Just so happens we know of a Forsaken and Black Ajah in the Salidar Aes Sedai: Aran'gar and Delana.
**I do think the BA set the trap for Egwene though, because she was messing up their plans for the division of the WT. Sheriam may or may not be BA, but I think either way she ended up helping the BA in their plan. She was the only one close enough to Egwene to know about the plan and that she was thinking about doing it herself.**
No, Sheriam was not. Egwene, the day of turning the chain, told the entire Hall about the plan to turn the chain to cuendillar (and she's a moron for doing so, in my opinion!). So, there are 20+ suspects for leaking information now.
Secondly, I must point out that if the synopsis RJ gave is any indication, Egwene was more than anything captured by simply Tar Valon Aes Sedai:
**In the White Tower, Egwene struggles to undermine the sisters loyal to Elaida from within....**
Hard to do that, when captive of the Black Ajah ;) But it's not for sure or anything.
22
JakOShadows: 2005-05-31
TheJester: If what you say is true, what purpose would they have in kidnapping Egwene. If anything, it would start some sort of conflict between the rebels and WT. But why would a secret organization that helps the dragon want a fight between the WT and rebels, it would just cause more disunity and dissension. And if they worked out a peaceful resolution, I don't think Elaida would be very welcoming. Either way it goes it doesn't turn out good for Rand. The only thing I could see is that they want the tower united no matter what the cost. It just seems to dicey. Of course, I don't see any way it will turn out good, but I would just rather see Egwene leading the WT towards the LB. She seems more adept to the changing times, I just don't think kidnapping her would help the cause. I lean toward the BA doing it, and Sheriam being an accomplice, either for or against her will. It's an interesting thought though.
23
Anubis: 2005-06-01
Halima was torturing sheraim. Saidin is used on her while she is being tortured and she mentions that it was a woman yet she sensed nothing.
24
JakOShadows: 2005-06-01
Good quotes Callandor. I did see what you were talking about with Sheriam being or not being BA, but I failed to mention it. Sorry. And I almost forgot about her telling the sitters. I need to reread the books. Thank you.
25
Callandor: 2005-06-02
**Halima was torturing sheraim. Saidin is used on her while she is being tortured and she mentions that it was a woman yet she sensed nothing.**
Sheriam does not mention that it was a woman, nor does she mention that she senses nothing. The only title/description Sheriam gives her torturer is "questioner."
Halima is a good choice, but not for sure. Nor can a saidar channeler be completely ruled out.
26
clocklotion: 2005-06-10
Ok here is my latest and I think most compelling) bit of proof that the Seanchan are the ones behind Sheriam's beatings.
I was rereading Fires of Heaven and on pg. 446-447 of the paperback edition, Min along with Siuan, Leane and Logain have just arrived in the Salidar camp and as Min is looking at all the different Aes Sedai she sees different viewings for each.
Now most importantly she has a viewing of Sheriam and of another Aes Sedai Carlinya one after the other.
The viewing of Sheriam is hard to interpret as it is described only as: "Rays of silver and blue flashed about her silvery hair, and a soft golden light." Min offers nothing in the way of interpretation.
Then Carlinya enters and Min looks at her and sees: "an image of a raven floating beside her dark hair; more a drawing of a bird than the bird itself. She thought it was a tattoo, but she did not know its meaning."
Well I know its meaning (hopefully). Carlinya is Seanchan. I can't exactly remember what exactly the raven stands for but didn't Egeanin and the Seeker she ran into have ravens tattooed on them as well? And then there's the Tower of Ravens (pg. 521)
Like I said before, what it seems like Sheriam is being subjected is very much like the 'switching punishment' that sul'dam use on their damane.. I really think that the Seanchan are in the rebel camp and as the rebel camp draws closer to Tar Valon (or is it already there at the end of CoT? Can't remember anymore) those agents in Seanchan will become more prevalent.
Just another thought I can't remember from the books, but I remember reading from different theories that the Seanchan are preparing an attack on Tar Valon. And I distinctly remember the rebel army led by Gareth Bryne reaching or getting very close to Tar Valon.
The woman that is torturing Sheriam is a Seanchan spy and is probably Carlinya.
27
clocklotion: 2005-06-10
Another bit of evidence that I just came across. As Min continues to view the Aes Sedai she comes across Edesina who has a silvery collar around her throat (an adam) that suddenly shatters, meaning that she escaped. Well.. what if she didn't escape but was set free? It has been stated many times that Rand must make peace with the Seanchan to be ready for Tarmon Gaidon. What if part of that peace is the release of damane? I dont think it's that hard to see. There are already so many cracks in the whole sul'dam/damane system, with Tuon being sul'dam and knowing that sul'dam could be turned into damane just as easily.
I have a feeling that that information will become quite public and in an act of self-defense the adam will be destroyed and sul'dam and damane instead of being masters/slaves will be almost like soldiers but that's a whole different point altogether.
So that's what I've come up with so far. I really think this is strong evidence but let me know. Granted it still doesn't explain Sheriam's peculiar behavior in the Tower, but like I said before as well, maybe she was just caught up in the moment and decided that mere Accepted and Novices did not need to be told what they did not need to know.
28
Callandor: 2005-06-10
**Well I know its meaning (hopefully). Carlinya is Seanchan. I can't exactly remember what exactly the raven stands for but didn't Egeanin and the Seeker she ran into have ravens tattooed on them as well? And then there's the Tower of Ravens (pg. 521)**
One thing: Seanchan fear/despise/hate all Aes Sedai. No way would they pretend to be one.
And we know she can channel (the Seanchan never let a channeler go free -- not to be trusted -- they are leashed), and she has the Ageless look.
**Another bit of evidence that I just came across. As Min continues to view the Aes Sedai she comes across Edesina who has a silvery collar around her throat (an adam) that suddenly shatters, meaning that she escaped. Well.. what if she didn't escape but was set free?**
She escaped with Mat and co. in Winter's Heart. So, no, she was not let free.
