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lyena.

by Seeker: 2003-02-02 | 3.8 out of 10 (10 votes)

Previous Categories: Alivia: Who and How

During the past five books, Jordan has made countless references to Ilyena via the Lews Therin persona. Now I know a lot of people take this as simple grieving on Rand's/LTT's part, but I've noticed that when Jordan draws attention to things they usually come into play - usualy in a way we don't expect.

In books 5 - 7 RJ portrayed Ilyena as though she were the one love of the Dragon soul. (Like Birgitte and Gaidal) That to me, suggests that she has some role to play.

Now, there's Min's viewing There are two men. One is Rand (the other, presumably, LTT) The two men will merge and one will die.

We've always thought that LTT would die, but I submit that it's Rand that has to go. I think the multiple personality disorder is a result of Rand trying steadfast to hold on onto his identity, instead of accepting that he IS Lews Therin Telamon.

Once Rand let's the "Rand Identity" die, the multiple personality disorder will end. He will still be Rand, but complete in the knowledge that he once was Lews Therin. Harmony and such.

Now, I can't prove it, but Alivia's demeanor leads me to suspect that she is the reborn soul of Ilyena. Something she said about loyalty to Rand. Also, she seems to very much care for him. Perhaps then, Alivia will see some remnant of the man she once knew a lifetime ago. Then Alivia will help Rand accept who he really is, thus helping "Rand" die, so that "The Dragon" can live.

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Comments

Tamyrlin: 2003-02-02

This is almost a better theory for a LTT and Rand section. I almost want to agree with what you are suggesting concerning Rand. The reason he has two personalities is because, in fact, he created them to deal with the fact that he has a second set of memories. If he would stop fighting those memories and allow LTT to take over, maybe we would have a mix that is harmonious as you point out...I like it. The Alivia connection is fun...but some more development, as promised, would be helpful...but I know the quotes you are discussing and it would be appropriate, although, wouldn't it be better if Ilyena was Min? :)

cwarner62: 2003-02-02

Interesting theory. I always thought it would make more sense though if Elayne is Ilyena reincarnated. She is physically similar to Ilyena and there have been several occasions when Rand is thinking of Elayne that LTT thinks of Ilyena. One that I remember is in TFoH when Rand is told that Morgase is dead: "Elayne, forgive me. And a faint echo, altered. Ilyena, forgive me." (Ch. 51, p. 863 paperback) Also, I always noticed that Elayne is almost an anagram of Ilyena.

Callandor: 2003-02-02

There have been theories of LTTs Ta'vereness being split up between Rand, Mat, and Perrin.

Now couldnt it be that Ilyena be split up in between Min, Avi, and Elayne?

Mairashda: 2003-02-03

mh...Elayne is the Ilyena for Rands Lews Therin, Min is for Rand...and Aviendha...well, we'll just have to see who that third man will turn out to be...

Shen Al Calhar: 2003-02-04

Aviendha is for The Dragon Reborn, while Min is for just Rand? Just different facets of his personality possibly.

Nateosis: 2003-02-10

Maybe aviendha is kinda like the aiel side of rand? and also, I believe elayne is ilyena reborn. .after all, lews therin had kids with ilyena, right? and elayne is gonna have two little rands running around soon...coincidence? i think not

Theron: 2003-02-10

I think it possible that Elyane, Min, and Aviendha are all reincarnations of Ilyena, That her soul was split between the three women. This would explain why Rand loves all of them, and not just one as would be the case if Ilyena was reborn into only one body. It seems that in Randland lovers tend to be reborn together (like G. Cain and Birgitte) so Rand (as LTT) should love Ilyena soul reborn. But he loves three women, not one as would be the case. It's a little out there, but I think that it is a viable posibility.

Lana: 2003-03-20

I can't see Elayne as Ileyna reborn. Look at it this way. In most of the people we've seen reborn, those who can channel in their first life (previous life) can channel during their next lives. Consequently, those who can't channel (Brigitte, Gaidal) can't channel in their next lives. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember any evidence of Ileyna being able to channel.

I guess that would go against the Alivia being Ileyna, seeing as how she can channel.

Personally, I don't think Ileyna's been reborn at all. What did she honestly do that merits rebirth? Most of the people who are spun out repeatedly are hero's of some sort. Not their wives.

WinespringBrother: 2003-03-21

Maybe there isn't any direct evidence of Ilyena being able to channel, but indirect...

For one, Ilyena Moerelle Dalisar earned a third name, so she must have done something very distinguished to earn such. So she might be an Aes Sedai (could Non Aes Sedai earn that honor I wonder?) which would obviously indicate channeling ability.

Second, according to the timeline on www.sevenspokes.com, she married Lews Therin 50 years before the war of the shadow. She was still alive and apparently in her youth (don't have quotes in front of me) when she was killed by her husband over 60 years later. Indicating that her natural lifespan is long, and therefore a channeler.

Third, her rebirth could be due to her connection to the Dragon (Reborn) and importance to the pattern in that regard.

Jiana: 2003-03-21

Oooh, Winespring Brother... Very good point on Ilyena's being able to channel! I love it, and it makes so much sense. I had always assumed that Elayne was Ilyena reborn, because of the physical similarity and the similarity in names, but who knows? I think there is a good chance that Alivia is Ilyena reborn, and will help LTT "die"... or, more to the point, quiet the voice in Rand's head that can't quit whining about Ilyena. So many twists and turns it could take...

Mairan Sedai: 2003-03-21

I agree with what cwarner62 said about Elayne being Ilyena reborn, like the physical similarity and the anagram and such.

Regarding the soul-splitting thing: maybe souls are broken in death and pieces taken from a bunch to make a new one for rebirth, which is how no two personalities are exactly the same. The exceptions would be people tied to the Wheel. And Elayne, Min, and Aviendha all have a piece. Does that make any sense whatsoever?

linchan: 2003-03-25

I'm not convinced that Elayne is Ilyena; for one thing, the physical similarity means nothing - Rand has red hair, LTT has black, and it is commented on in the book that they look very different. As for their names, I don't think it's really RT's style to give a character a name which is an anagram of their previous incarnations. I'm not saying it's not possible, there is some evidence that she could be; but for instance, LTT echoing Rand's 'Elayne forgive me' could be explained just as well by the fact that LTT could empathize with Rand's anguish, and we know how easy it is for him to slip back into his memories...

In other words, Ilyena is to LTT what Elayne is to Rand.

As for her soul being split between the three, that seems to me to be an elaborate invention to justify someone's position. There's no mention of such a thing happening to souls in any of the books as far as I can recall (granted, aside from Mat, LTT and the heroes, there isn't much about reincarnation at all). Why shouldn't Rand love three women, instead of having one true love? Remember, Rand is the *Dragon* reborn, not Lews Therin reborn. Aside from the one soul/two soul funkyness which I am yet to form an opinion on, I see no reason why Rand should be reborn with as many or as few of LTT's traits as the Pattern wants.

In summary then, Ilyena could be Elayne, but then again, she could not...Well, that was a useful argument.

Jiana: 2003-03-26

Got some references this time! In ACoS, Unseen Eyes (don't have pg#, sorry), at the very end of the chapter, Egwene is going to sleep. She is cataloging her dreams. Toward the end of that, she has a dream of Logain stepping over what she thought was Rand's body to mount a black stone... Now this could be Logain's glory, i.e., taking charge of the Asha'man. In the dream, Egwene tries to touch Rand's face, but when she did, it crumbled like paper, as if it were a puppet. Now didn't someone mention that maybe Alivia would help Rand fake his death? And didn't they say that maybe Logain would have something to do with it? Am I imagining things? Or am I simply posting something that someone else did first?

HunterofTrollocs: 2003-04-08

I agree that Elayne is NOT Ilyena, but i disagree with an earlier comment that Rand is not Lews Therin reborn. There is much evidence to support it. In Min's viewing, when the two men (Rand and most likely LTT) merged, why would that happen if Rand is not LTT's sould reincarnated. Rand is also of the same strength in the OP as LTT and a lot of the same things ocure to both of them. For instince. Rand simi trusts Aes Sadai, LTT does not, but then Rand is put into the box and will never trust and Aes Sadai again. I do not think that Ily was reborn inside of Avi Elayne and Min. I agree that this is just an invention that was invented as an exuse for believing something. Plus i don't think that it's RT's style to be that blunt, he likes the play 'The Great Game'. All in all, i don't think Ily has even been reborn. I mean, she was his wife, not a general or someone of very high memory. I think that only Rand and LTT remember who she is. Where as LTT and Artur Hawkwing will always be remembered. I kinda wrote too long, so after more comment, I'll be back with more.

Korell: 2003-04-08

I'm sorry i dont have time to read the thread right now but i was just thinking that maybe Logain is the one on the ground and Rand is actually the one stepping over Logain and has altered himself to look like Logain and Logain to Look like rand just a thought dont know if it was mentioned already anyway see what you will in it thanks.

Allie: 2003-04-12

If Rand Mat and Perrin are Lews Therin split in three, and Elayne, Aviendha and Min are Ilyena split in three, wouldn't it make sense for the three guys to be paired up with the three girls? It doesn't make sense to me for Lews Therin to be split amongst the three guys.

Jiana: 2003-04-15

I don't think that Ilyena's soul is split into the three women, nor do I think LTT's soul is split into three men. That just doesn't make sense as far as the story goes. Rand is LTT reborn, and whether or not the voices in his head are real (see a different theory) is neither here nor there as far as that goes. Mat and Perrin may or may not be someone reborn, but they are ta'veren, and that in itself counts for their hero status.

In addition, I think that aside from helping Rand "die," Alivia may be in position to save Egwene from some danger. Egwene has a Dream that she is dangling from a precipice in the White Tower, and a Seanchan woman with pale hair grabbed her hand and pulled her back up. To me, that is clearly Alivia, though what kind of danger is not clear to me, because Dreams can either mean exactly what they say, or they can mean something that is veiled, and no one can tell until the Dream has been fulfilled.

melchizedek: 2003-04-25

First, Min is for the Two Rivers part of Rand. Elayne is for the part of him that is Andoran Royalty. Aviendha is for the part of him that is Aiel. None are Ilyena, but I think it very possible that Alivia might be... although she is not is not the love of Rand at all... but of Lews Therin. She may well help him die so that the Dragon might live.

But there is a Third. Lews Therin is the Dragon who was. Rand is the Dragon who is. But in the 4th Age, there will come the Dragon who will be. As the Wheel wills.

Shadow Bane: 2003-06-12

Now I agree that it is possible that Min is the Manetheren part of Rand, Elayne the Andor nobility, and Avienha the aiel but Elayne could very well be Ilyena i mean

Ilyena reworded comes out as

Elayni which is very similar to Elayne.

My own idea is that Ilyena was NOT reborn, she wasn't mentioned as being a hero of the horn. Rand just likes the three of them and Lews likes Elayne the most because she reminds him of Ilyena.

If anyone is Ilyena it is Egwene, but because Rand is a new dragon he had to find vnew love, so as Min said it wasnt meant to be, it is never said Lews was "meant" for Ilyena, after all he loved Meirin first anyway.

anderwarrick: 2003-06-12

Okay, correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't everyone reborn? I thought that everyone was reborn, not just the heroes of the horn. In fact i've never heard that before reading this theory. Are heroes of the horn the only ones reborn?

Callandor: 2003-06-13

It could simply be that because LTT killed everyone that carried any of his blood, that Rand will have an excessive amount of family. Come on, Elayne has twins, Avi has 4 in the future (even though it could be the reflection of the bond of Min) so thats at least 6.

Jiana: 2003-07-10

anderwarrick, IMO not EVERYONE is reborn, but it isn't just the Heroes either. I have always thought that it was those who alter the pattern (ta'veren), and those close to them who are reborn. In other words, those who make a big enough ripple in the Age Lace warrant being reborn, whereas Joe Somebody from Anyvillage wouldn't be as likely.

Rand-althor: 2003-07-11

I remember reading somewhere(possibly an interview) that everyone is reborn, but only a few have important roles to play. But they don't wait in TAR like the heroes do, they wait in a kinda soul limbo land, where they have no consciousness.

Callandor: 2003-07-11

**Beth Silver from Austin, TX: Aside from the Heroes of the Horn waiting around in the World of Dreams, is there any kind of afterlife in WOT? Do the Heroes get a choice when they are linked to the Horn; can they retire, or take 'ordinary life' sabaticals?

RJ: In answer to the first question, yes, there is an ordinary afterlife. In answer to the second, no. You cannot decide NOT to be a hero linked to the Wheel.**

Everybody is reborn, it simply defeats the purpose of the biggest oath possible (swearing by their salvation and hope of rebirth and all that).

Lucifer Fujii: 2003-07-17

Alivia is ilyena mainly beceause she was extremly strong in the power and in Winter's heart Lanfear or cy goes on about no one being stronger than her. Since she realy hated Ilyena she would block it out of her mind that Ilyena was stronger than her. Umm i confused my small mind again.

rubbernilly: 2003-07-17

You watch a theory grow and grow, and you think, should I post here? No... I'll wait. And it grows, and the little things start to get to you, but you wait. And wait.

And then a bunch of things people have done, said, and assumed really have your ire up. Let me vent for a moment:

Alivia as Ilyena = laughable.

Why is she around the dragon again? because their love was so strong that it surpassed the boundaries of turnings of the Wheel? Too bad, then, that she was born 400 years before LTT this time around, huh?

Min/Elayne/Avi as Ilyena (her soul being 'broken' or some such) = laughable.

Never seen evidence of soul splitting, soul migration, two-souls-in-one, souls being in TAR and in the real world at the same time, or souls being injected into a person as they enter their formative or adult years as being the way that the Wheel/Universe operates. (Yes, Slayer is two souls in one after a fashion - but guess what? That's what makes him unique. He is a personal project of the DO).

All souls are reborn, some are just born for specific Wheel-benefitting purposes (the heroes).

Alivia's power in relation to Ilyena and Lanfear

Alivia is strong in the power, but if you read that Cyndane POV carefully, I think you see that she correctly deduces that the reason why Alivia seems as powerful or more so than cyndane is because alivia has angreal somewhere about her person.

(In fact we know that this is the case from Nynaeve distributing her items before the cleansing begins). Therefore there is no reason to think that Lanfear denied Ilyena's strength in the power being greater than her own - denied that the twit could channel at all. That's just unfounded conjecture.

Because I don't buy into the soul-splitting apologetics mentioned above, I do not await Ilyena's introduction into the story. She would be one person, whole; perhaps someone we already know, perhaps someone we have yet to meet.

And Rand would say to her... what? Just because LTT loved her Rand is supposed to as well? Gaidal and Birgitte never know in their waking lives that they are falling in love with each other. They are falling in love with the person that they are falling in love with... it just so happens that that person is the other hero.

Introducing Ilyena now (even if she were to be Elayne) would unbalance and invalidate all of the love we have been led to believe that Rand bears the 3 women. Why should he love one more than the others (especially a fourth woman) just because he finds out she is Ilyena?

And apart from love, there is nothing that would tie Ilyena to the dragon, and so no reason for her to be born in concert with him.

In fact, from all accounts, LTT was something of a player. He tugs his ear and whistles a tune whenever he sees a pretty woman - ANY pretty woman. He loved Mierin until she went crazy-psycho, and then started his relationship with Ilyena. I don't think there is any great love story tying their threads together throughout time. LTT was a lover of many women, and Rand reflects this.

That's the end of the story, in my book.

In short, how strongly can I disagree with a theory? Very, very strongly.

Callandor: 2003-07-17

We dont know for sure, although we can guess pretty good, weather Ilyena could've channeled at all, her age and length of marriage is the only thing that hints at her being a channeler and its doubtful. There is no where in the books that say she was a channeler, let alone stronger then Lanfear. So that is no proof at all of Alivia being Ilyena reborn.

Stanzi: 2003-11-25

I kind of like this one. It would be a stretch, but it would give a deeper meaning to that showdown between Alivia and Cydane. Like it or no, Alivia does play a big role, and it's something more than just helping the guy fake a death.

If she were Ilyena, it wouldn't matter if she was born earlier than Rand. They found each other, and it's not like he's going to live forever as it stands. There's nothing to say that they would be lovers in this time around...Birgitte's the only person who sems to be linked to a certain person. So that wouldn't be a big poo poo on the argument.

Alivia could help Egwene, but I see Domon's chick being the one to do that. (Or a suldame...Egwene was a damane, so it doesn't up the irony factor quite like a suldame or regular Seanchan saving her does.)

Whatever the outcome will be, this is certain:

Alivia IS important on a Cadsuane level...

The Ileyna thing I *think* will come up, but I can see where it would serve just as well as a mystery.

SugarBullet: 2003-11-25

I've posted this before, but I'll mention it again since it's relevant. I think we're all barking up the wrong tree here. My opinion with the three loves of rand is simply this. Because Rand's Soul is reborn every age, there are people he remembers being in love with on an unconscious level. Sort of the opposite of an brigitte and gaidal. So in conclusion, rand loves elayne instictively because he loved her in a past life. The supporting material is sketchy, but I've always been bothered a bit by the abruptness of both min's and elayne's love for rand. It seemed to be something that sudeenly came to them. Whereas avienda and rand had a bit more realistic process they went through, or at least it wasn't at first sight. Min's behavior also points to this. Jordan always goes to an effort to stress how out of place she is. She read voraciously in a land with few books, she prefers her hair short and to wear breeches... In short, she has the natural habits and inclinations of a 20th or 21st century woman. (our age is after all generally thought to be the age before the AOL). Also, Elayne has all the hallmarks of AOL. Regal, educated, Strong in the power, able to make ter'angreal... and Avhienda bears the marks of this age. A women from a culture disctinct to this incarnation of the dragon, a warrior from an age overrun with battles. In short, they are all "true loves" of rand and next age there will be more.

bayoegb: 2003-12-15

First off there is a possibility that Ilyena could be reborn or has been reborn but it doesn't necessarily mean that Rand will love her because take for example the only other hero we really know about. Artur Hawking it is known that he had children which is how the seanchan survived even after his death. And we also all know that to have children in the time Artur Hawking lived it had to be completely natural so why is it thatwe don't see Artur Hawkings wife with him when the horn is first sounded well i believe that as being stated before every time a hero is reborn they are different and don't remember everything so why do they have to fall in love with the same person again and again. I believe that there will be different people in every age that a hero will love. I also realize that Briggite and Gaidal are an exception to this but we should realize that both of them are ta'veren so therfore their path is already set and they can't deviate from it.

udernation: 2004-03-12

Ok. Is it just me, or have people failed to argue one main point: Why does Ilyena have to be reborn in love with Rand. Normal souls (ie. not heroes like GC and Birgette) don't re-fall in love, so there is no rock solid reason Ilyena needs to appear at all. Full stop. Although I'm sure if RJ incorporated her he wouldn't TELL us she was reborn anyway,,,

Aelfinn: 2004-03-12

Patterns versus rebirth.

There's a theory about "Egwene is the next Lanfear", and it somehow fits in with this one.

As I said, Patterns versus Rebirth. I believe in patterns. All of Rand's enemies aren't the Forsaken reborn, they are in the PATTERN of the Forsaken. The Wheel weaves patterns; Egwene is in the pattern of Lanfear, but not bound to Lanfear's fate (eg she won't necessarily become a Forsaken). So Egwene had some similarities in her early life with Lanfear; it's the pattern of the Pattern.

Min and Elayne (not so sure about Aviendha) are all in the PATTERN of Ilyena, and I'm staying out of JUST WHO is Ilyena reborn.

BTW, the third name was given by service to the community, it doesn't distinguish Aes Sedai. Lanfear didn't have a third name, and she was one of the most powerful female Aes Sedai (no matter how she got that power).

Ozymandias: 2005-02-17

maybe it was Tamyrlin who said it, or someone else, idk. But i Think its far more likely Ilyena would be Min reborn. A lot of the personality traits are the same; the laughter (we dont actually see Aviendha or Elayne laugh too often), the mischeivosity (is that a word, even?), and a few other minor points. Or, we might eveen think that Ilyena has been distilled into all three of Rand's harem, with each getting certain parts of her. This is reinforced by the idea that Rand really can't live without one of the three, and he says at the very end of tFoH that he would burn the pattern in order to save Aveindha (after using the balefire on Rahvin). LTT states almost on a daily basis that he would have burned the world to ash and used the pattern as tinder in order to hear Ilyena laugh one more time. So I think its most likely Ilyena getting a part of all three of them, or Min is Ilyena.

psychomusician: 2005-05-16

i read in an interview w/RJ that LTT was bound to the wheel but was NOT a hero, so obviously Ilyena could have the same thingadoodle going

on the topic of her channeling, the prologue does mention "her golden haired beauty" now, the AOL was obviously a high tech society, so, she could probably live to 110 or so, and still look young. now, since channeling/non-channeling ability seems to apply to this, Min. she cannot channel, and is one of rand's loves. cmiir, but i think that LTT piks up on his moaning about ilyena when min is around

Callandor: 2005-05-16

**i read in an interview w/RJ that LTT was bound to the wheel but was NOT a hero, so obviously Ilyena could have the same thingadoodle going**

No, Lews Therin is one of the Heroes of the Horn.

**Q: "Is this soul born in any other age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as The Dragon/TDR?"

A: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age.**

JakOShadows: 2005-05-17

Rand does seem to spend more time around Min than anyone else, so that could also be some evidence that she is Ilyena, but I don't think it will ever be mentioned in the book. It doens't really make a difference whether Ilyena is reborn or not, I think its more that Ilyena's soul is tied to LTT's soul. Not that she is tied to the wheel as a hero or anything to do with the last battle.

PhantomAlpha: 2005-05-31

I don't see how Ilyena has to be reborn as Rand-wife(s). I think it's pretty obvious that, although Rand and LTT share the same soul, they are NOT the same man and thus do different deeds in different life and can love different women etc...

The part of the viewing/prophecy/foretelling that says Rand must die in order to live, and that 2 men merges and one dies, I always see them as somehow connected and interpreted thus:

Somewhere down the road Rand and LTT will have another battle of control, in which Rand dies and LTT takes over. Yet somehow this enables the Rand/LTT soul to live, maybe because LTT can do things Rand can't. And once LTT had done his part Rand will take over again. Thus he must die to live again.

This theory works well with the Ilyena as Alivia theory, since to help Rand die (and LTT to take over), LTT's fellow wife might either help (get out Rand! gimmie my Lews back!) or trigger (ILYEEEEEEENAAAAAAAA~~~!) that to happen.

Callandor: 2005-05-31

**The part of the viewing/prophecy/foretelling that says Rand must die in order to live, and that 2 men merges and one dies, I always see them as somehow connected and interpreted thus:

Somewhere down the road Rand and LTT will have another battle of control, in which Rand dies and LTT takes over. Yet somehow this enables the Rand/LTT soul to live, maybe because LTT can do things Rand can't. And once LTT had done his part Rand will take over again. Thus he must die to live again.**

If Rand dies, his soul, that of the Dragon, will return to wherever it is that souls await rebirth. There is no way to stop that, save if Rand pledges himself to the Dark One and is transmigrated (in which this thread is basically pointless).

If Rand dies, Lews Therin does not take over. He's just a personality.

However if you mean if Lews Therin takes control over Rand, then how does Rand "die"? He simply doesn't in that case, nor does he "live again" if he takes over control from Lews Therin.

My view of what Rand and Lews Therin are, has always been that if Lews Therin does "take over" nothing will happen. Why? Because Lews Therin is a construct created by Rand subconsciously via taint madness, real actual memories from Lews Therin's past life having crossed over into Rand's mind, and simple stress from being the Dragon Reborn and supressing his emotions the way he has been (while Lews Therin has done nothing but ~express~ them).

If you want a bad analogy, you could look at if Rand was the right hand, and Lews Therin was a left hand. Both are the same body (soul for the counterpart of the analogy), but Rand is in control and reaches for things always with the right hand. When Lews Therin tries, it's like the same body reaching for a drink with the left hand, and the right hand batting it away. In the end, what does it matter which hand picks up the glass to drink? None at all since it's the same soul in a body.

As I said, very bad analogy, but hopefully gives some meaning across.

ssjx7squall: 2005-06-01

Well Going back to what Jiana said about Egwenes dream about logain stepping over rands dead body and the whole faking his death thing is it possible that rand will fake his death or what ever and let logain take over? Cus after the LB rand probably will be fead up with being the center of everything fake his death and let logain take his place? Probably the only thing i have to back that up besides what Jiana said is the veiwing Min had of the Crown above logains head and his return to glory. Just throwin it out there.

JakOShadows: 2005-06-01

Callandor: That's a good analogy there. I also like the way that follows with him accepting that he has LTT's memories. Once he comes to terms with that, he won't fight it and hence to struggle within himself.

Callandor: 2005-06-02

**Cus after the LB rand probably will be fead up with being the center of everything fake his death and let logain take his place?**

The most likely thing for Rand after the Last Battle, is to be dead, not alive. ;)

Hank McCoy: 2005-06-02

TFOH—“Not balefire. Mustn't use that. Threatens the fabric of the Pattern. Not even for Ilyena? I would burn the world and use my SOUL* for tinder to hear her laugh again.”

and al'Thor!"Your name is Lanfear, and I'll die before I love one of the Forsaken."

*All caps added for denotation.

I think this theory is bunk. I do not understand why so many people want Ilyena to be alive/reborn. She is a character we as readers know almost nothing about yet a large faction is determined to resurrect the dead. I don't get it.

Is there a reason for Rand loving the trifecta? Sure. Do I know what that reason is? No. Is there enough evidence in the books? I don't think so. This could just be a small story detail or Jordan himself could be a lecher and want three women. I don't really know.

I do know that I sometimes feel like this board is the culmination of my English/Literature classes—everyone is always trying to read into every nuisance. Sure, Jordan is well known for subverting details into the story but that does not mean everything has a hidden meaning. Sometimes a dress is just green.

Daughter of the Night: 2006-10-15

Just thought i'd add something i noticed but not sure if anyone else thought the same? it seemed to me that rand instantly trusted alivia. cant give actual quotes at mo but i remember vaugely that when she first came into his group he seemed to have no problem wiv her bein there and knowing things others didnt and this is even significant seeing how untrustworthy he is of people in general in the later books. its possible that if she was the soul of ilyena reborn he might instantly "take" to her without really knowing why at this point rather than necessarily having to be in love wiv her. Just a thought im a newie to WOT am readin them for the second time at mo so sorry if ive brought up points already discussed, discarded etc! :)

JakOShadows: 2006-10-16

I think part of the reason that Rand trusts her and keeps her close is because she obviously has to serve that purpose. And she has also shown that she is completely loyal to him too, but you notice that he wants her to be in his inner circle so that she can do what is needed to happen naturally. He goes so far as to discuss this with Min, so I believe we have some solid evidence for this line of thought.

Gulaben: 2007-08-19

umm this might not be aplicable but... wouldn't LTT make a bit of fuss if Alivia was Ilyena? I mean it would make sense for him to notice even if Rand didn't.

Catalyst: 2007-08-23

My little speculation:

The Dragon Soul has three women, and he lives once in each age with one of them. Each woman lives in two ages with him, and in the seventh age the three are reborn together. Maybe like this: 1st age Avi, 2nd Elayne/Ilyena, 3rd all three, 4th Avi, 5th and 6th Min and 7th Elayne/Ilyena, or something like it.

kozma37: 2008-04-15

i almsot want to believe the post above about LTT loving 3 diferent women .. but as far as we know he only loves Ileyna //

urghh BUT what i want to mention is that Min's viewing of rand about how thre are 2 ppl and one will die tath could range from: LTT - Rand - ihamael(due to the balefire connection) // mins viewing of this was before Mashadar pooned Samael BUT then again Min's viewns are never about waht IS hapening right at the time ( taking mat into consideraton // she said in the first book that she saw and eye on a balance scale// not of this has hapened yet-althought i am stiking to the theory that mat wil save Moirane :)) point is Min's viewngs are about the future // so i believe that LTT is Rand and the Dragon, they are one and the same so i am left with him and Mordin aka Ishamael.

Also, after Rand gets "kidnapped" by dumbass Elaida we know taht he was conversing with LTT, and that conection grew stronger , and he was never allowed to channel .... sooo i stand to be corrected then because LTT apearing in Rands head has nothing to do with Saidin.

If u disagree pls. correct :)

JakOShadows: 2008-04-18

kozma37:

actually, i think the LTT personality is still due in part to the the taint on saidin. I wrote a whole theory on this a couple years ago. Anyways, I believe that the taint broke down the barrier between the past lives, and the LTT personality is Rand's way of dealing with that past life's memories in his head. It's still technically the same person, but it could be considered a different personality connected to a different lifetime.

Dragon Tamer: 2008-04-22

I like to think of the different personalities as being what Rand or Lews Therin would have done in different circumstances. If Lews was born in Rand's situation he would have been the same and vice versa. Therefore I think this is partly from the taint but also partly from how Rand is this powerful Ta'veren. Who knows, maybe Lews heard the previous dragon before him.

MatOdin: 2009-10-29

I really can't agree with your saying that she is the reborn soul of Ilyena. I agree most with the idea that Ilyena's soul was split up between Min, Aviendha, and Elayne, or better yet, not reincarnated at all until the second age (Age of Legends) comes again. I think that Min and Aviendha and ELayne are just three women who happen to be Rand al'Thors lovers.

Paaran Disen: 2009-11-01

What evidence do we have against Ilyena being able to channel.

ALso if you combine the names of Min, Elyane and Avi, you ger mIn eLYane aviENdA

jordan720: 2009-11-03

To the above comment, Robert Jordan chose that as his pen-name because it was the only one that contained letters from each part his real name James Oliver Rigney Jr. (He is quoted saying this, I am just not sure where). Thus, it would make sense that Ilyena's spirit would be broken into three parts and her name be identified with the current carriers of her soul.

Yaga Shura: 2009-11-03

Paaran Disen: "What evidence do we have against Ilyena being able to channel"

We have absolute proof that Ilyena could channel. There's an RJ quote from what I think is a booksigning:

Bailey's Crossroads VA 2005 - John Nowacki reporting:

Q: Was Ilyena Aes Sedai?

RJ: Yes.

I'm not 100% sure where the original quote can be found, but it's in the interview database in the Rand section.

Paaran Disen: 2009-11-03

Thanks to both of the above comments for agreeing with me in both respects. IT would make no sense for Ilyena to not be Aes Sedia. Even with peoples extended lifespans, she would only live for 200 years, while Lews Therin could live for thousands.

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