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livia Fakes Rand's Death
by Son of Sammael: 2004-06-09 | 6.38 out of 10 (21 votes)
Previous Categories: Alivia: Who and How
We know that Alivia is strong and has been around for a long time. I think that it's possible that when it says she is going to help "us" die ties into what the 'Finns said.
They said roughly "To live you must die". We know that sometimes Seanchan nobles (DotNM specifically) have faked their deaths for advantage. Alivia would know this... is it possible she knows some sort of weave that would help simulate death?
My theory it that is that she will help Rand to appear dead so that he can get away and lead a semi normal life after Tarmon Gaidon.
The prophecies say that the dragon's blood will be spilt on the rocks of shayol ghul to save men from the shadow (and correct me if I'm wrong) but I don't believe it specifically states that he will die.
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2004-09-03
What you postulate is the likely scenario. There are other things that support your position. The three woman in the boat, the funeral bier, etc. So, I agree with you, Alivia will help Rand "die".
Frenzy: 2004-09-03
fake your own death with outside help. Eh, why not. It worked in Romeo & Juliet.
Chrono: 2004-09-03
I think that yes he will fake his death, with Aliva's help, but he will later become an important person again, if only husband of Queen of Andor.
Callandor: 2004-09-03
**Alivia would know this... is it possible she knows some sort of weave that would help simulate death?**
She's a damane. Why would she know things about nobles? If the Seanchan think Tuon faked her death, and not even suspect damane intervention, why would other nobles have used them before?
**My theory it that is that she will help Rand to appear dead so that he can get away and lead a semi normal life after Tarmon Gaidon.**
Rand dies in the Last Battle. The peaceful life into retirement is really pointless to Rand. He'd have to leave basically all the things that hold him to staying alive (Min could go with him, but Elayne and Avi would be a bit beyond reach). He really doesn't like who he is any more. Not to mention, half mad.
**The prophecies say that the dragon's blood will be spilt on the rocks of shayol ghul to save men from the shadow (and correct me if I'm wrong) but I don't believe it specifically states that he will die.**
Twice to live, twice to die.
Tamin: 2004-09-05
Most of the evidence seems to say that the only life Rand will have a chance to live after TG will be a life barely worth anything. I think he'll die.
Frenzy: 2004-09-07
~since sarcasm didn't work the first time...~
really? gosh, i never realized that in the dozens of times i read that play in High School, College, adulthood, etc. ~gasp!~ Wait!!! you mean, they DIDN'T live happily ever after? ~sniffle~ Cliff Notes lied to me!!! Oh, Leo, your character dies?!? whatever shall i do with myself?!?! Oh well, at least Orlando Bloom survived the Lord of the Rings. He's so dreamy...
~i feel so dirty...~
Basel: 2004-11-08
OK given that this is my first post, I will make it a good attempt.
We know that RJ has modeled Rand after Jesus the Christ. Now there are those that believe that Jesus did not die on the cross. His blood was spilled by the spear for the salvation of mankind. It is said that no one but three women were close to Jesus when he died.
Taken from John 19: "Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus therefore saw his mother and the disciple standing by, whome he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home. After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop and put it to his mouth. When Jesus therefore had recieved the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed is head and gave up the ghost. The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day... Then came the soldiers, and rake the legs of the first and the other which was crucified with him. But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs. But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water."
Now nowhere in there does it state that anyone but the three women near him saw him die. An illusion, if the soldiers had broken nis legs, Jesus would not have been able to walk amongst the disciples again.
As been stated before, no where in the prophecies does it say that Rand will outright die. It does say that his blood will be spilled upon the rocks at Shayol Ghul. This does give Rand room to make the world believe he is dead but still live.
Now who will the three women be. Well for the mother figure, Nynaeve. For that of Mary Magdalene, Elayne. And the last, so far the following have been hinted at: Alivia, Aviendha, and Min.
Callandor: 2004-11-08
**We know that RJ has modeled Rand after Jesus the Christ. Now there are those that believe that Jesus did not die on the cross. His blood was spilled by the spear for the salvation of mankind. It is said that no one but three women were close to Jesus when he died.**
Not just on Christ; as a archetype of any savior.
**As been stated before, no where in the prophecies does it say that Rand will outright die.**
Yes, it does.
**TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 26 - Discord
"Twice and twice shall he be marked, twice to live, and ~twice to die~. Once the heron, to set his path. Twice the heron, to name him true. Once the Dragon, for remembrance lost. Twice the Dragon, for the price he must pay.'**
**Now who will the three women be. Well for the mother figure, Nynaeve. For that of Mary Magdalene, Elayne. And the last, so far the following have been hinted at: Alivia, Aviendha, and Min.**
Elayne is currently pregnant, and as more of a personal pet theory, will not be in any condition to be going to the Last Battle (she is not one of the people important in Min's viewing of everyone in TEoTW); Avi will not be there because she will be helping Elayne with her children being born.
Sampson: 2004-11-09
I think this is the reason why everybody is reading the series. Some people would like a ending where Rand dies, which would be a different ending than most Fantasy stories. Others believe that Rand has to live because he is the “Savior” & “Victor” of the last battle and saved everybody. I know RJ said he has the story line completed in his head and he just needs to write it down and add details. I would postulate (I liked the word and had to use it ;}) that he doesn't know if Rand will live or die. The longer the series and as long as we Wheel of Time Fans continue to show our interest and be emotional, the more $$ and satisfaction he gets. (Sorry, he should have already completed the series and then did a couple of prequels).
On to the theory, I do not believe that there is a weave that can imitate death. Most likely Rand will take another wound while finishing the Dark Ones Prison. This will happen so the majority of people around can see it. He will fall and be close to death (while spilling blood on the rocks). His faithful loving compatriots will whisk him away and see if they can heal him.
Now this is the crux, Does he survive and become a anonymous survivor and try to eek out a living as a sheep farmer? A Gleeman? Or something in Rhuidean or Shara?
Or does he try and be the King of Illian? Try and be like Hawkwing and unit all the lands together?
I personally do not think he can exist in anonymity. He has gotten use to the privilege and power he has. Can you think of any woman who would let him not use his power and influence? I can not see Elayne + kids, Min and Aviendha + kids let him go and become a sheep farmer again. But it is a possibility. Hell, he will probably look forward to death, knowing he has to live with (3) women! Seriously would any man want that!
I do not see the world and the surviving rulers wanting him around and the possibilities that could arise.
So Rand will sacrifice himself for the good of the world and die. Setting up RJ's next series about how the kids divvy up the world.
Callandor: 2004-11-11
** I would postulate (I liked the word and had to use it ;}) that he doesn't know if Rand will live or die.**
That, I highly doubt. RJ started with the ending, the one place Rand is most likely to die.
**(Sorry, he should have already completed the series and then did a couple of prequels).**
1. How do you know he was supposed to already complete the series? Do you know how much information is left to put in, or how much he writes per day?
2. He did one prequel as a break; the others are on hold.
3. Who the hell cares? It's a great story; make it twice as long and I would be elated.
caitlin: 2004-11-20
I think this is entirely plausable. I know Callador says she might not know such a weave as she is just damane, but a lot of the Power weilding characters in WOT know more weaves than expected of them and thier station-like Elayne knowing how to link someone as a Warder when she was an accepted still - so it could be. And there are other ways to fake a death other than using the power. Through skills of manipulation I don't see why not.
As for the "Twice to live, twice to die" prophecy, I like Basel's idea of comparing Rand to Jesus Christ, or any other savior. So resurrection should not be excluded. Or maybe some form of reincarnation? I know this is sounds a bit complicated, but I don't think RJ has it in his big creative heart to kill of Rand. He has too many ties; I don't think the other characters would be able to survive without him.
Gareth: 2004-12-02
hi guy
forgive me if i'm not clear but english/american english is not my native language and i find it quite difficult to write.
well let's come to the point: i would like to discuss the word "die". Does this death have to be physical ? I don't think so. let me explain:
firstly, when talking with Lanfear in Tear, Rand is said that one of the forsaken can destroy his body and the DO can destroy his soul. (sorry, i have not the book with me right now so i have not the exact quotation). For me, it is an indication that when fighting Rand in TG, the DO will aim at Rand's SOUL, not at his body.
secondly: i say that Lews Therin is not just a mad voice in Rand's head but sort of a real soul. In that case, if Lews Therin takes controle of Rand's body, it would be a kind of death for Rand himself.
we know that Rand don't necessarily have to die in TG but that "if he wants to live, he must die". My guess il that Alivia will help Rand to give up his body to Lews Therin (voluntarily or not). This way, the DO could destroy Lews Therin's soul in TG so that Rand himself would survive.
Domani Leane: 2005-03-10
The quote "twice to live, and twice to die" that many of you are relying on to show conclusively that Rand will die at the last battle, doesn't say that at all. Twice to live is simply a reference to him being the dragon "reborn". Rand fullfilled this part simply by being born. The second part "twice to die" just means that Rand has to die, which since he is human, will eventually happen. It does NOT say that he has to die at Tarmon Gaidon, just that he must die sometime.
Vunivalu: 2005-04-13
Is it maybe possible that when the prophecies say that the dragon dies that it simply means LTT's voice in Rand's head will dissappear.
Or does it say specifically in the prophecy of the dragon that he will die or just that blood must be shed, the changes in the exact wording could make a big difference.
Aiel Finn: 2005-04-14
This may be a long shot, but whenever Rand quotes the "blood on the rocks" part, someone always tells him that the prophesies are never what they seem. This may be more than a coincidence.
NargsBrood: 2005-04-16
***Quote**
The quote "twice to live, and twice to die" that many of you are relying on to show conclusively that Rand will die at the last battle, doesn't say that at all. Twice to live is simply a reference to him being the dragon "reborn". Rand fullfilled this part simply by being born. The second part "twice to die" just means that Rand has to die, which since he is human, will eventually happen. It does NOT say that he has to die at Tarmon Gaidon, just that he must die sometime.
**********
when he was born into this world, he was, in fact, at that moment reborn as well. So, it was only one birth. In your attempt to explain it, you still only mentioned 1 death as if your "2 births" explained it away. They dont.
The way I see it is Rand was born and that was the first "live". Rand will die in TG and that is the first "death". Nyn/Damer will find a way to heal his 1st "death". He will live again which will be the 2nd "live". and of course die which will be the 2nd "death" thus fulfilling the prophecy.
1 more point. if you are referring to his 1st "live" to when he was physically born, then how can you reject that the 2 "deaths" are physical as well?
maharbry: 2005-04-17
the quote "twice to live twice to die" refers to him being marked with the herons/dragons.It doesnt necessarily mean that he will literally live/die twice.
Yaga Shura: 2005-04-18
"the quote "twice to live twice to die" refers to him being marked with the herons/dragons."
No. The quote:
"Twice and twice shall he be marked,
twice to live and twice to die.
Once the heron, to set his path.
Twice the heron, to name him true.
Once the Dragon, for remembrance lost.
Twice the Dragon, for the price he must pay"
refers to the markings he receives.
Twice to live and twice to die is definitely about Rand dying, though whether metaphorical or real deaths I can not say.
Aiel Finn: 2005-04-18
No, the marking comes from a different part. Once the heron for something, twice the heron for something...etc.
joebball1212: 2005-06-27
Rand lives at TG...Everyone keeps arguing that Alivia will use a weave to imitate death...then everyone counter-argues that she is Damane and would have no time to learn such a weave if it even exists BLAH BLAH BLAH! Mirror of Mists anyone? All it takes is a random corpse that hasn't been hacked up too much, and as long as noone touches it noone will know, therefore Alivia helped him die. Certain people will know, but they'll play along (rand's three lovers). One of the things most emphasized in this series, is that people are often twisting what they say, and everything has deeper meaning. "His blood on the rocks of shayol ghul," he could just get injured. "twice to live and twice to die" who says the second death won't be a quiet one?
JakOShadows: 2005-06-27
joebball: I can see how it could be done, but the only thing I see wrong with him living is what would his motive be. It seems to me he doesn't want to live past the last battle because he's afraid he'll go crazy. Now that might change in the next few books, but he doesn't seem to be looking forward to life after the LB. I just had a thought. Wouldn't it be cool if he went back to Emond's Field and hid there. I could be a possibility. The main thing that I don't see is a motive though, but besides that it seems logical.
IshaSamMoridin: 2005-06-28
a lot of people seem to be quoting the part of the prophesies that states 'twice to live and twice to die' but of COURSE he's going to die! just maybe not at Tarmon Gaidon. there is nothing in the Kareathon Cycle, that we have seen, that specifically states that he will die at the last battle.
Anubis: 2005-06-28
If Mat were in Perrins situation he would have complained about the need to be a hero, been a hero, and been back home with his lovely whife.
Tho I agree, I can hardly stand to read Egwenes PoV, partially because its all polotics and part because she is obnoxious.
JakOShadows: 2005-06-28
Isha: The only problem I have with your statement is that seems like a fairly mundane thing to be making a prophecy about. It could be, we never know, but I always though prophecies were always pertaining to important events in the future or present. I do agree it is possible though. And maybe his death with symbolize something else, the end of the breaking or the end of an age. But if its not tied to something of that nature, I don't know why it would be mentioned in a prophecy that seems to have so much importance attached to it.
SDog: 2005-06-28
Maharbry is right, of course. The prophecy only says he will be marked twice. It doesn't say he will die twice. He will be marked twice for death. He has two herons and two dragons. He has already been marked twice (well, four times...twice + twice).
Now, there is another prophecy that says, "Twice dawns the day his blood is shed," but again that doesn't mean he will die twice.
StylZ905: 2005-07-26
Rand IS Lews Therin reborn. He still doesn't completely accept that, that's why I believe he still has voices in his head; the voices are a manifestation of a part of himself that he denies, he never heard the voices before because he was never in denial of himself before he was told that he's supposed to be someone he thinks he's not.
As far as faking his death, I don't know if that's how the story is gonna go, but I agree that a body in decent shape is all that's needed what with weaves like the Illusion/Mirror of Mists and all...
Sum Black Eye: 2005-07-27
Rand's 'blood', that we know of. A half-brother, Galad. An uncle, Luc. Two children by Elayne. Four? children by Avi. I am not actually saying that Rand will not 'die' at TG, but his 'blood' might just mean someone that is related to him. Also, I wonder how Luc became a darkfried/dreadlord or whatever he is. I would think that becuase of the prophesy that sent Tigraine to the Aiel and him to wherever, I would think that he would somehow help the light win TG. Oh well, I guess we will find out eventually.
JakOShadows: 2005-07-29
Sum Black Eye: The only problem I have what you said is that we're talking about the prophecies of the dragon which are mostly about signs of the coming of the dragon reborn. I don't see how Lord Luc dying at SG would be involved with his battle there. They're battle doesn't seem connected to him the way everything else is.
Laughingman: 2005-08-20
Do you have any idea how hard it is to post something with a three year old yanking at the mouse cord??
Anyway, The question Rand asked the Finn's was, 'How can I survive the Last Battle.' Something that was really bugging Rand at the beginning of Lord of Chaos. After his images beat the bejesus out of him, He says to Moraine, 'If you could send me to Shayol Ghul now, we would win.' "My blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul."
The Finn always speak true, and so do Min's visions. Min's vision of 'She couldn't tell him that the only way he could win the Last Battle was with the help of a woman dead and gone'
That looks like Moiraine to me, and I'm pretty certain she's coming back. There is also a vision of rand being stepped over by Logain, and then rand crumpling like a paper mache mask. I'd say that supported the theory of SOMEONE faking Rand's death at some point.
Finally, Alivia has supposedly been around for 400 years, certainly with that kind of experience, not to mention the help of others, she surely could fake a death.
How much good it would do in the long run, shrugs, but the Finn always speak true, and so do Min's visions.
Ellistann: 2005-08-21
*Anyway, The question Rand asked the Finn's was, 'How can I survive the Last Battle.' Something that was really bugging Rand at the beginning of Lord of Chaos. After his images beat the bejesus out of him, He says to Moraine, 'If you could send me to Shayol Ghul now, we would win.' "My blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul." *
Rand says that line out of desperation and weariness, not out of knowledge. He goes through the doorway a few chapters later.
Everyone seems to forget about "the beggar staff and the fisher king".
TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 15 - Strangers and Friends
"What about me?" Her grin stopped just short of outright laughter. "The same kind of things as the rest. A sword that isn't a sword, a golden crown of laurel leaves, a beggar's staff, you pouring water on sand, a bloody hand and a white-hot iron, three women standing over a funeral bier with you on it, black rock wet with blood -"
TITLE: Path of Daggers, CHAPTER: Prologue - Deceptive Appearances
"The Fisher was always worked as a man, a bandage blinding his eyes and one hand pressed to his side, a few drops of blood dripping through his fingers. The reasons, like the source of the name, were lost in the mist of time. That troubled him sometimes, enraged him, what knowledge might be lost in the turnings of the Wheel, knowledge he needed, knowledge he had a right to. A right!"
Reading book four over again I found another neat little hint RJ throws at us. Perrin uses "the wolf dream" to find out hunt Slayer and sees a "window in the sky"
TITLE: The Shadow Rising, CHAPTER 53 - The Price of a Departure
"As he scanned for birds, a patch of sky darkened, became a window to somewhere else. Egwene stood among a crowd of women, fear in her eyes; slowly the women knelt around her. Nynaeve was one of them, and he believed he saw Elayne's red-gold hair. That window faded and was replaced. Mat stood naked and bound snarling; an odd spear with a black shaft had been thrust across his back behind his elbows, and a silver medallion, a foxhead, hung on his chest. Mat vanished, and it was Rand. Perrin thought it was Rand. He wore rags and a rough cloak, and a bandage covered his eyes. The third window disappeared; the sky was only the sky, empty except for clouds."
Rand has worn raggedly clothing a few times in the series, has even used Mask of Mirrors to look like a "rough person", but he has never been blinded. He has pulled the hood of his cloak to cover his face when meeting the Aiel chiefs in the first part of book 5 necessitating the use of a helper to see as if blind , and was locked up in a chest blocking all light in book 6 but was unable to see for any real length of time.
I wish I had the appropiate page numbers for this, but Egwene has a dream, and it is of Logain stepping over a body on black marble. That body was Rand's. Everyone assumed that it was at the Black Tower and that his future glory was to continue Rand's legacy, but what if he is merely helping Rand go underground? Alivia will not fake his Death, or if she does it will only be as help.
And the three women are his lovers not Nynaeve and Elayne and Alivia, because we see in Nicola's Foretelling,
"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives."
Again this is a time I wish I had page numbers, but it is in book 6 shortly after the return to Salidar when the bubble of taint hits the town. Nicola is swept into a link and she gives a Foretelling that not only tells this, but about how the Ashaman and Aes Sedai will balance out again (something to the effect of guardians and servants balancing at least.) and the fact the Seanchan will post themselves and remain for quite a while (mentioned something about the Return cutting the world in two and claiming it.)
Elayne being the Queen of Andor is obviously the Lion Sword. Aviendha is the Dediacted Spear, leaving the last part of the threesome to Min who does indeed "see beyond". Not every funeral pier is on land. The Norse would put a man on a boat then set the boat aflame, perhaps this is the case here.
Lastly logic says that if Rand is the Fisher King, he can be destroyed but not killed. Suppose he is burned out, blinded and thought to be dead after the last battle, but lives and is still ta'veren. For a game, let alone a piece of the game, to survive an Age is a long shot, but for a piece of a game to retain the properties of it's originator through the complete cycle of the Wheel (i.e. 7 Ages) is astounding. That leads me to believe that Rand will still be around after he has been blinded, perhaps not as Rand Al'Thor, but around none the least.
This is related to my old theory "Mercy Killing" in this same section.
Callandor: 2005-08-21
**The Finn always speak true, and so do Min's visions.**
To be technical, the Aelfinn are always right about the future, in regards to the person only. But, since it was about Rand, it's moot.
**That looks like Moiraine to me, and I'm pretty certain she's coming back.**
So am I, and so are a lot of people -- one of the most for sure things in the books.
**Everyone seems to forget about "the beggar staff and the fisher king".**
Don't worry -- people don't.
**That body was Rand's. Everyone assumed that it was at the Black Tower and that his future glory was to continue Rand's legacy, but what if he is merely helping Rand go underground? Alivia will not fake his Death, or if she does it will only be as help.**
Rand already is underground, and has been for 3 books -- shows you what "underground" means for the Dragon Reborn: surrounded by people who know who he is.
But it could easily be both: Rand's death is faked (him playing a blind beggar can be thrown in wherever), for the manuvering to get the Black Tower completely behind Logain and oust Taim.
**Lastly logic says that if Rand is the Fisher King, he can be destroyed but not killed. Suppose he is burned out, blinded and thought to be dead after the last battle, but lives and is still ta'veren.**
Why would the Dragon Reborn remain ta'veren, after the Last Battle is won? What purpose at all does he serve, after the Last Battle? None.
ThunderWalker: 2005-08-22
If Rand is somewhat modeled after Dune's Paul, he may fake his death. Paul fakes his death, and his son continues on (one of his twin children).
Not suggesting an exact parallel, the series isn't going on long enough to include his children in it.
Logain is the most obvious to take up his mantel -- and Min has that viewing of him.
snakes-n-foxes: 2005-09-14
Please forgive that I've plucked quotes from other peoples posts :
Karaethon Cycle : Twice and twice shall he be marked, twice to live, and twice to die.
Finns Phrophecy : To live you must die
Mins Prophecy : She's going to help you die
These 3 prophecies are tied together, almost any which way you argue it.
KC - Obviously Rands second death has to be a literal death...no one gets out of life alive. But the first ‘death' HAS to occur before the second
We also know that in Randland, death cannot be healed (stated by Morraine – healing death is the creators domain) except when reversed by balefire
‘She's going to help you die”....It appears very likely that Alivia will have will help Rand ‘die' his first death. The only alternative is if she helps Rand die his second & final death...but given that he needs fake his first death...it's highly likely, bordering on an almost certainty, that Alivia will help Rand die his first ‘death' - so that Rand can live, ala Finns.
All that's really in question, is the timing of Rands first ‘death'.
When Egwene faced her accepted tests, she faced the possibilities of : what were, what is, and what could be : In ‘what could be' she is Amyrlin (does anyone doubt she will be?), Beldeine is her Keeper (and we've met Beldeine), and Elaida is Egwene's bitterest adversary. Rand is standing brought before the white tower to be gentled....unlikely what happens, but...no one is going to gentle him before TLB, so this was a possibility of AFTER The Last Battle...so the possibility Rand survives exists.
‘His blood staining the rocks of SG, sacrifice for mans salvation'
This does not state he will die at SG. For Rand to die at SG he would need :
- to die his figurative death prior to SG; and
- Fullfil all phrophecies prior to SG. These include :
Mins visions
1. A beggars staff; and
2. Pouring water on Sand; and
3. A bloody hand a red hot iron; and
Perrins Vision
1 “it was Rand. He wore rags and a rough cloak, and a bandage covered his eyes.”
It seems unlikely that Rand will be subject to a blood covered hand, a red hot iron, a beggars staff, beggars clothes and bandages over his eyes prior to TLB, but that's not to say it can't happen.
But the big question is...'when' is he going to ‘die' the first time? He HAS to ‘die' by faking his death (otherwise it wouldn't be a figurative death, as per the first few paragraphs). And a faked death prior to TLB would be disastrous for the world, and pointless besides
Ageto68: 2005-10-26
I believe that, not only will Alivia help fake Rand's death, but to help further the belief that Rand has died, Logain will be set up as the Dragon in Rand's stead. This is believable due to the fact that Logain was a False Dragon before Rand's reign and many people still don't know the name of the true Dragon Reborn. Going along with what was already stated, I do believe that Alivia will use the Seanchan method of faking a death and having a replacment. Alivia will present this idea to Rand, thus giving her "help" to his death.
In short, my theory fulfills not one, but three foretelling.
1. Alivia helping Rand die
2. Logain gaining ultimate glory
3. Rand's "to live, you must die"
Have at it
Callandor: 2005-10-26
**This is believable due to the fact that Logain was a False Dragon before Rand's reign and many people still don't know the name of the true Dragon Reborn.**
That's wrong. Many, people from Tear to Arad Doman, from Altara to Shinear know the Dragon Reborn is named Rand al'Thor. Many did not know in The Shadow Rising still. Most knew by Lord of Chaos. But by Knife of Dreams it's impossible to say that only people in the deepest parts of the Caralain grass don't know that Rand al'Thor is the Dragon Reborn.
Tristin: 2005-10-27
the alivia faking rand's death thing has been around for awhile but it seems like a massive cop out on the "to live you must die" thing. I can't see that being the case.
Eek: 2006-02-09
I don't really think that Rand would be able do just disappear, and besides the Aiel would follow him anywhere and some of them is to survive the LB.
ForsakenRahvin: 2006-04-04
This is a pretty far stretch (and excuse if it's a little late. I'm still a youngling, and I'm reading through all of the theories lol), but what if Nynaeve finally learns how to heal death? This has been mentioned many times throughout the series. I don't have the books to quote (I borrowed them for a while from a cousin of mine, so the first 8 or so I don't have), but I remember them saying a lot about how Nyaeve wishes she could heal death, or that she will learn to heal death.
She has already done the impossible once, which wasn't even known in the age of legends (healing being stilled).
Like I said, it's a far stretch, but hey, it's fantasy right?
Callandor: 2006-04-04
**This is a pretty far stretch (and excuse if it's a little late. I'm still a youngling, and I'm reading through all of the theories lol), but what if Nynaeve finally learns how to heal death?**
A person inside and of the Pattern cannot fundamentally change the weave of the Pattern nor the destiny of an individual. Stopping from being being dead would obviously be a big change.
And there's only one reference about Nynaeve healing someone being dead in the series.
JakOShadows: 2006-04-05
ForsakenRahvin:
The healing of stilling/gentling was a hinted at a lot more though. Where as the quote about Nynaeve healing death was only mentioned once or twice. So while it is possible, it is a much longer stretch to make compared to the healing of gentling/stilling.
Canan Urgas: 2006-04-05
quote "Rand dies in the Last Battle"
maybe rand dies in the last battle, but somehow he lives onwards. he asked the finns "how can i fight the dark one and live?" and they gave him a riddle of an answer. also nicola had a foretelling. something like "the lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. three in the boat, YET HE WHO IS DEAD YET LIVES. THE GREAT BATTLE DONE, but the world not yet done with battle..." theres more to it. but in my eyes that means that rand will one way or another be alive after tarmon gaidon and i dont think he will be brought back by the horn of valere like people keep saying either. but i agree with the bit about alivia being linked to the "to live you must die" thing
haertchen: 2006-04-05
ForsakenRahvin:
It's a good idea, and it's been floated around a lot. There's some textual evidence to support it, although it's not the best-supported thing in the series. I'm not sure how it's going to come out, but I consider Nynavae healing death (probably she'll only be able to do it once, in special circumstances) a definite possiblity.
I do pity you, though. Callandor's probably already posted his response to this. For heaven's sake don't get in an argument about when we can and can't believe "general knowledge" from the characters in the series. I don't know how many times I've seen it. Callandor will have the last word because he will never, ever give up.
sogoloth: 2006-04-06
Sorry I have to disagree - even though I would like for your theory to be true. We all would like a happy ending but I just don't see that in the cards for Rand. Per all the numerous different prophesies, he's destined to die. I think the only way for him to "live" is to stop the DO, thereby the Wheel remains intact and he gets spun out again... only to have to go through this crap again... would suck to be Rand honestly.
Anyhow, if you had to choose - death by a friend or death by an enemy, which would you pick? Rand will die by Alivia's actions. Min's viewings don't lie.
I don't believe that death is healable even for Ny. Just seems too far a stretch, and would go against the mechanics of the Wheel. You can hardly be respun if you never die...
Canan Urgas: 2006-04-07
I disagree with the logain becoming the dragon after rand. logain wont become LTT reborn, will he? about the one who comes after, i think that is narishma and that thread is done. maybe rand will be dying and logain will save him by swapping bodies, with alivias help. that way, rands blood spills on the black rocks, logain will become famous and gain his glory in his death AND alivia will have helped rand die also theres the viewing about logain stepping over somebody with rands face, but who isnt rand (although iv got a good theory for that bit besides)
ForsakenRahvin: 2006-04-07
**A person inside and of the Pattern cannot fundamentally change the weave of the Pattern nor the destiny of an individual.**
What about using Balefire? That not only fundmentally changes the indivitual, it changes the pattern completly, wiping the thread of that individual from the pattern.
If you can completly take someones thread out using Balefire, why not be able to put one back?
Callandor: 2006-04-07
**Per all the numerous different prophesies, he's destined to die. I think the only way for him to "live" is to stop the DO, thereby the Wheel remains intact and he gets spun out again... only to have to go through this crap again... would suck to be Rand honestly.**
Very good. Rand dies, but his soul continues to be able to be reborn again and again; hence he will "live" on. Join the faction.
ForsakenRahvin: 2006-05-16
I don't have a direct quote here because I don't own all of the books (it would really help me out).
Do we know that he WILL be spun out again? Since the Creator created, well, everything, there has been the battle between the Dragon and the Dark One.
We don't know that he will in fact be spun out again after this battle. Earlier on in the series (very early on, one of the first few books if I remember correctly) the Dark One says something along the lines of "This will be the final battle between us. After I beat you, it will be the beginning of my reign, and I'll take over the pattern" blah blah something like that. (If anyone could find this quote, I would be very grateful). This implies that this will be the last battle that they fight, right?
I know this is off the topic of the theory, but Callandor can't ALWAYS have the last word, right? haha......
Callandor: 2006-05-21
**We don't know that he will in fact be spun out again after this battle.**
The only way for this to be the "Last Battle" is for the Light to lose, and the Dark One to be freed. We know that doesn't happen this time around, through the 4th Age histories given to us, Foretellings beyond the Last Battle, and Jordan's own words.
So, the Dragon soul will be reborn at least one more time, because this is not the "true" end of the world. We know the Light wins this battle.
Zalis: 2006-05-23
I hear a lot of people quoting 4th age content as proof that the Light wins. But does it really prove it? (though I do support the idea that the light will triumph this age)
Just for argument's sake, I think the past 4th age could exist without the Light winning this time around. Even if the DO wins and the Wheel is broken, that past 4th age would still have happened. And because of that, we have quotes and snippets. Not because it is guaranteed to come around again.
Unless I'm not remembering something important, which is entirely possible. :)
LeafBlighter: 2006-05-24
regarding to the last sentence, Min see's Rand dying during TG, if i remember correctly. I do not believe that he will fake his death, because the Aelfinn's said that "to live you must die". I believe something with the "link" with Moridin and Rand will happen after Rand dies.(perhaps something like a warder bond)
Callandor: 2006-05-24
** I hear a lot of people quoting 4th age content as proof that the Light wins. But does it really prove it?**
Yes, it is. The Dark One winning is him escaping. If the Light loses, the game is up.
** Even if the DO wins and the Wheel is broken, that past 4th age would still have happened.**
Right, so instead of obviously referencing the following Age, the 4th Age, these quotes are instead a reference back to near a full turning before. Right....
**Unless I'm not remembering something important, which is entirely possible. :)**
If those were the only proof, you'd be able to convince a few people of the craziness of it. However, we also have the Foretellings of Nicola (of events obviously past the Last Battle), more of Min's Viewings, and finally Jordan's own words that he will detail up to and just a bit past the Last Battle in the final book. The Light wins this round. We've known it for a long time. The only question is at what price.
ForsakenRahvin: 2006-05-25
The Light does not always win though. It's stated earlier on in the book, I think in the same book, that they Light and the Dark have fought many battles, and the Light has not always won.
Now, I do in fact believe that the Light will win. But who says that the Dark One can not be completly destroyed? I have not heard anywhere in the series (at least, not that I remember) that states that he can not be. If Rand truly destroys the Dark One, than this would be the LAST Battle.
I really wish I had all of the books to reference this stuff...
Ieyasu: 2006-05-27
"Twice and twice shall he be marked,
twice to live and twice to die.
Once the heron, to set his path.
Twice the heron, to name him true.
Once the Dragon, for remembrance lost.
Twice the Dragon, for the price he must pay."
I have a problem with the way this is being interpreted.
It seems to be taken as two deaths, or dying more than once.
But that is not what is said:
"Twice and twice shall he be marked,
twice to live and twice to die."
It is not saying he is going to die twice, it merely states that he will be marked twice to die.
"Twice and twice shall he be marked,"
This indicates 4 markings (herons x2 & dragons x2)
"twice to live and twice to die."
keeping with the 4 markings, two are for life, two are for death.
When looking at it, the latter lines seem to keep in the two markings for life, and two markings for death:
"Once the heron, to set his path.
Twice the heron, to name him true."
These two markings seem to be about his life, things that have occured.
"Once the Dragon, for remembrance lost.
Twice the Dragon, for the price he must pay."
these seem to be about death with the remberance being the past lives seen in the pillars, and the deathtoll the LB will take, this is a battle, there is bound to be massive amounts of casualties on both sides.
I don't understand how this particular prophecy can be taken to mean two deaths. Or even WHY this would be taken as such.
im thinking the "To live you must die" has more to do with his soul, and the changing of time from a cataclysmic cyclic period of predestined roles, to a linear free-destiny. To win the LB he will have to remove the cataclysmic event (fighting the dark one, whether or not he wins in various ages) removing the dark one from the equation. thus 'dying' for all time, freeing the world from the DO, breaking the cycle
as for Alivia's role in this, I have no idea how she will aid in the LB or the death of rand. i think she is likely to be related to the mergeing of the two images.
im of mind that LTT is both real and a created personality as a result taint madness, and has more to do with the 'laughter and tears' wrapped up with cadesune and moraine, and that voice will be merged into rand or disappear. i believe the taint has much to do with a deteriaton between rand and LTT, a breaking of barriers between the ages, and the voice is rands way of dealing with new memories, the mannerisms he is picking up from the memories, as well as the knowledge of the power and AOL seem to indicate a natural merging there, i dont think it will change rand much, other than to silence the voice, and thus, isnt the merging mins spoke of.
on the other hand, i believe the third man is moridin and that is the merging in which min has her viewing.
I believe Alivia will play a role in how that merging resolves, tho i have no idea what exact role she will fill. there are many possibilities that can be likely sceneros, especially when balefire concerned, tho that jsut feels like a cheesy cop-out to me.
i also dont like the possibility that its not so hidden of a thing, that she jsut plain helps him die, kills him, be it mercy, shes a df, whatever, i cant see all three of the heros surviving, i believe atleast one of them has to die to make this series complete, but i think its going to be matt or most likely perin. i think in the end, rands going to survive somehow, inspite of her helping him to 'die'
OR
keeping with the ending of the cycle, her aid could be in the breaking of the pattern, helping him to die the final death as he ends the predestined ages
Callandor: 2006-05-28
**The Light does not always win though. It's stated earlier on in the book, I think in the same book, that they Light and the Dark have fought many battles, and the Light has not always won.**
Which was said by Ishamael, and Jordan showed was false. The Light has always won.
**But who says that the Dark One can not be completly destroyed? I have not heard anywhere in the series (at least, not that I remember) that states that he can not be. If Rand truly destroys the Dark One, than this would be the LAST Battle.**
The fact that the Dark One is not in and of the Wheel or Pattern, so he has no corporeal form to even "attack," let alone anything to truly destroy. The Dark One, like the Creator, is a constant -- immortal.
**It is not saying he is going to die twice, it merely states that he will be marked twice to die.**
Correct. Two markings to "live;" two markings to die. Not two lives or two deaths.
**These two markings seem to be about his life, things that have occured.**
What's more, when Rand recieved both markings, they were integral events to Rand eventually declaring himself the Dragon Reborn, hence making the Dragon "live."
**im thinking the "To live you must die" has more to do with his soul, and the changing of time from a cataclysmic cyclic period of predestined roles, to a linear free-destiny. To win the LB he will have to remove the cataclysmic event (fighting the dark one, whether or not he wins in various ages) removing the dark one from the equation. thus 'dying' for all time, freeing the world from the DO, breaking the cycle**
No. You cannot kill the Dark One. Again, he's immortal, like the Creator.
And no one inside and of the Pattern can destroy the Wheel:
**BWB: The World of Robert Jordan’s The Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: 1 - The Wheel and the Pattern
The only known forces outside the Wheel and the Pattern are the Creator, who shaped the Wheel, the One Power that drives it--as well as the plan for the Great Pattern--and the Dark One, who was imprisoned outside the pattern by the Creator at the moment of creation. No one inside and of the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern. Even those who are ta'veren can only alter, but not completely change, the weave. It is believed that if he escapes his prison, the Dark One, being a creature or force beyond creation, has the ability to remake the Wheel and all of creation in his own dark image. Thus each person, especially each of those born ta'veren, must struggle to achieve his or her own best destiny to assure the balance and continuation of the Great Pattern.**
Translation: only the Creator or the Dark One could break the Wheel of Time. Rand "sacrificing" himself to do it doesn't work.
**im of mind that LTT is both real and a created personality as a result taint madness, and has more to do with the 'laughter and tears' wrapped up with cadesune and moraine, and that voice will be merged into rand or disappear.**
How can Lews Therin both be a real voice (IE: truly Lews Therin's personality) and a construct created by Rand?
**i think in the end, rands going to survive somehow, inspite of her helping him to 'die'**
But you yourself agree that the Prophecy refers to Rand dying. It says straight out: Twice to live, and twice to die. If Rand dies, yet lives, that's his soul going on to be reborn again and again. If he somehow survives, he never truly died.
**keeping with the ending of the cycle, her aid could be in the breaking of the pattern, helping him to die the final death as he ends the predestined ages**
Which is fundamentally impossible.
Ieyasu: 2006-05-30
***Which was said by Ishamael, and Jordan showed was false. The Light has always won.***
You are absolutely wrong. Jordan didn’t show that the light won every time. Infact, all Jordan showed was that the dark one has never succeeded in subverting the dragon. The dragon has always fought against the dark one. He has always fought FOR the light, and AGAINST the dark one. This in no way proves that the light has always won during each of these confrontations.
*** The fact that the Dark One is not in and of the Wheel or Pattern, so he has no corporeal form to even "attack," let alone anything to truly destroy. The Dark One, like the Creator, is a constant -- immortal. ***
I didn’t say that rand would destroy the dark one. I stated that he will end the cycle of facing the dark one. Removing the necessity of a cataclysmic battle between the surrogates of good vs evil. Remove the reincarnation, and the predestined roles that the various characters play.
Breaking the wheel shouldn’t be assumed as destroying the dark one.
*** Correct. Two markings to "live;" two markings to die. Not two lives or two deaths.***
You and I seem to be in agreement here. My post was to others who see this as valid proof that rand will die twice.
***Translation: only the Creator or the Dark One could break the Wheel of Time. Rand "sacrificing" himself to do it doesn't work.***
Rand has been prophesized to do several impossible things. This could simply be one of them.
***How can Lews Therin both be a real voice (IE: truly Lews Therin's personality) and a construct created by Rand?***
The memories and personality are what goes through to rand. He now remembers what wine is like in so and so season, etc. LTT is more than a voice. The memories are real, and rand has created a personality and voice from those memories to mentally accept another life that he couldn’t possibly have lived.
LTT may be every way like the real one who existed 3000 some odd years ago, however the current personality we see within rands head is merely a construction that rand has created to house these memories that are being embedded throughout his mind. With the actual memories in his head, why wouldn’t the voice be like the original? Its NOT the original though. LTT is DEAD. PERIOD.
As for taint madness etc, I think that’s how these memories were embedded in the first place. Why they have increased as time as gone on with rand using the power.
*** But you yourself agree that the Prophecy refers to Rand dying. It says straight out: Twice to live, and twice to die. If Rand dies, yet lives, that's his soul going on to be reborn again and again. If he somehow survives, he never truly died.***
I agree that rand will die. Yes.
I also agree that there are prophecies about his death. Sure.
There is no time table for this death.
I don’t agree there is any reason to believe he will have more than ONE death. Or that that ONE death has to be anywhere near the last battle.
He will DIE at some point. That is without question. Btu he doesn’t have to die in concert with the last battle to win it.
Ending the cycle means that WHENEVER rand dies, be it at the last battle, or afterwards, or hundreds of years later is irrelevant in so much as without a cycle to reincarnate the soul, death is FINAL.
If avila helps him to break this wheel, break the cycle of facing the dark one, then she can be said as aiding in his death. When he dies THIS time, (whenever that may be) it will be the LAST time. No more reincarnation.
There is no rebirth. No dragon reborn. No NOBODY reborn. No hero’s of the horn, no nothing. Just life. New threads. New people. New everything.
Does rand have to die? Of course. He is a human. He isn’t the dark one or the creator. He will die.
Do the prophcies talk about his death? Some do. Some aren’t that specific (blood on rocks etc) but one thing is for certain, NONE give a date or time of death.
His breaking of the wheel, granted an impossible thing, but so was healing saidin, healing severing (just an example of another impossible thing being done), and other things that he is also destined and prophesized to do, so it cant be ruled out.
*** Which is fundamentally impossible.***
So what? He does things that are impossible! Big deal. He is prophesized to do the impossible. More than once even.
Not to mention:
EOTW: chapter 51 pg 636
“…This has to end!"
IT IS NOT HERE.
It was not Rand’s thought, making his skull vibrate.
I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL.â€
There has been many supposition into who’s voice this was, or what it is the chosen one can do.
So sure, the BWB lists it as impossible for anyone inside the pattern to destroy the wheel.
There are prophesies to suggest that he will do impossible things.
Thus, the ‘last battle’ could only be the last time the dark one is faced by humans.
Will he still be able to touch the world? Does evil exist? *shrug* I don’t know.
Callandor: 2006-06-02
**You are absolutely wrong. Jordan didn’t show that the light won every time. Infact, all Jordan showed was that the dark one has never succeeded in subverting the dragon. The dragon has always fought against the dark one. He has always fought FOR the light, and AGAINST the dark one. This in no way proves that the light has always won during each of these confrontations.**
Then please enlighten me to how the Dark One has won -- IE: has broken free -- and the world has still been maintained.
The Light has won every single time up to this point, and will win this time again. You want to say otherwise? Please, bring evidence.
**I didn’t say that rand would destroy the dark one. I stated that he will end the cycle of facing the dark one. Removing the necessity of a cataclysmic battle between the surrogates of good vs evil. Remove the reincarnation, and the predestined roles that the various characters play.
Breaking the wheel shouldn’t be assumed as destroying the dark one.**
No, this is what you said:
**But who says that the Dark One can not be completly destroyed?**
You are clearly implying that the Dark One would be killed, destroyed, defeated for good. That, is an impossiblity.
And furthermore, if I even accept that what you were saying is just ending this conflict, you're still incorrect about this entirely.
No one inside and of the Pattern can destroy the Pattern or the Wheel. No one can change the fundamental nature of the world, which is reincarnation (except possibly the Dark One). So, again, not going to happen.
**Rand has been prophesized to do several impossible things. This could simply be one of them.**
And would you care to list anything else impossible that Rand has done? What Rand has done has been without precedent -- not things that are impossible. Big difference. We're told flat out that this is an impossiblity. Or maybe you think Rand will lift himself with the One Power, because it's also an impossiblity.
**The memories and personality are what goes through to rand.**
Yes, and the fact that his personality would go through would make Lews Therin real.
**He now remembers what wine is like in so and so season, etc. LTT is more than a voice. The memories are real, and rand has created a personality and voice from those memories to mentally accept another life that he couldn’t possibly have lived.**
No, as you yourself said, Lews Therin's personality would have come through to Rand. Hence, the personality is all Lews Therin, and none of Rand's creation. Hence why I said how can it be that Lews Therin is a construct, as well as real? They're blatant contradictions. Rand either has created this personality (with the basis of real memories) or it's a real personality entirely.
**LTT may be every way like the real one who existed 3000 some odd years ago, however the current personality we see within rands head is merely a construction that rand has created to house these memories that are being embedded throughout his mind. With the actual memories in his head, why wouldn’t the voice be like the original? Its NOT the original though. LTT is DEAD. PERIOD.**
And if you read the Barrier Degradation theory, you'd see that I agree.
Which only brings about the question of why you continue to say that the personality is also real, and a construct.
**I also agree that there are prophecies about his death. Sure.
There is no time table for this death.**
Right -- the prophecies refering to his blood being spilt in Shayol Ghul don't point to his death being there at all.
**He will DIE at some point. That is without question. Btu he doesn’t have to die in concert with the last battle to win it.**
And why is that?
**Ending the cycle means that WHENEVER rand dies, be it at the last battle, or afterwards, or hundreds of years later is irrelevant in so much as without a cycle to reincarnate the soul, death is FINAL.**
Which is an impossibility in this world. Reincarnation is a fact of the universe.
**If avila helps him to break this wheel, break the cycle of facing the dark one, then she can be said as aiding in his death. When he dies THIS time, (whenever that may be) it will be the LAST time. No more reincarnation.**
Again, not going to happen. No one inside and of the Pattern (IE: no one with a thread), can destroy the Wheel or Pattern. End of story.
**There is no rebirth. No dragon reborn. No NOBODY reborn. No hero’s of the horn, no nothing. Just life. New threads. New people. New everything.**
Right. Alivia and Rand break the Wheel -- yet threads still appear and reality goes on oh so nicely. Nevermind that the Wheel is what puts souls into bodies and hence creates these threads, and is the centerpiece of the universe. And, again, is impossible to destroy by the people subject to the Wheel.
**Do the prophcies talk about his death? Some do. Some aren’t that specific (blood on rocks etc) but one thing is for certain, NONE give a date or time of death.**
Right. Again -- where else is Rand going to die that isn't going to be utterly anti-climatic, pointless, or downright repugnant?
**His breaking of the wheel, granted an impossible thing, but so was healing saidin, healing severing (just an example of another impossible thing being done), and other things that he is also destined and prophesized to do, so it cant be ruled out.**
1. Stilling was not impossible to be done, since it was done -- it was just unprecedented.
2. Healing saidin? Rand cleansed saidin. Also not impossible since it was done -- just unprecedented.
3. Healing stilling was not prophesized at all unless you have a quote from somewhere I have not read.
4. Again, it's a fundamental fact of the world -- no one inside and of the Pattern can break the Wheel or the Pattern. End of story.
**So what? He does things that are impossible! Big deal. He is prophesized to do the impossible. More than once even.**
No, Rand has not done the impossible. He's done the unprecedented. There is a large difference, and simply saying "so what" isn't convincing.
Get back to me when Rand lifts himself up with the One Power about doing the impossible.
**There has been many supposition into who’s voice this was, or what it is the chosen one can do.**
Yeah, and...?
**Thus, the ‘last battle’ could only be the last time the dark one is faced by humans.**
No, the Last Battle is a name given to an event foretold by humans. Like how the Dark One is the "Lord of the Grave" when he is no such thing.
ForsakenRahvin: 2006-10-04
Just as a question...
It has been mentioned before by a few people about Rand breaking the Wheel and ending reincarnation and creating finite lives.
The Dark One is trapped within the Wheel, correct? Unless I'm wrong, in which case this question is irrevelent.
If Rand broke the wheel and ended the cycle for good, wouldn't this release the Dark One for good as well? So the Dark One would have power within Randland and could touch the world and etc etc, right?
ForsakenRahvin: 2006-10-04
**No one inside and of the Pattern can destroy the Pattern or the Wheel. No one can change the fundamental nature of the world, which is reincarnation (except possibly the Dark One). So, again, not going to happen.**
Is using Balefire considered fundamentally changing the pattern? It eliminates a thread entirely from the pattern, and in the age where they were using a hellofalot of Balefire they almost unraveled the pattern, ending existance.
So if Balefire is considered fundamentally changing the pattern, then didn't Jordan contradict himself when he said that no one inside of the pattern can fundamentally change the pattern, and yet have people doing exactly that when they use Balefire?
JakOShadows: 2006-10-05
ForsakenRahvin:
Technically, yes, the pattern is changed. But the amounts we currently see are not creating drastic changes, but it did have drastic effects in the AoL. So it is possible. And as to the effects of balefire, the example of Rahvin is a good one. Rahvin kills Mat and people see that Mat died. Then Rand balefires Rahvin, and the lightning that killed Mat no longer exists. So then Mat is still alive. But people still remember Mat as having been killed. So from that example, it changes things that the thread directly affected, but not indirectly. In essence you have the right idea though.
JakOShadows: 2006-10-05
ForsakenRahvin:
About the linear time theory, no it wouldn't quite work. Because we think about the DO being inside the pattern because he can't touch, but in reality the prison separates him completely from the pattern. Even if the wheel were destroyed, as long as the prison holds up he couldn't touch the pattern. (of course then there wouldn't be pattern he could touch) It is difficult to picture, but the wheel drives the pattern, then creator can to touch the pattern and has imprisoned the DO so that he is inside time but still can not touch the pattern. A really abstract concept to think about.
Anubis: 2006-10-06
**3. Healing stilling was not prophesized at all unless you have a quote from somewhere I have not read.**
**he ‘shall slay his people with the sword of peace, and destroy them with the leaf?
What does it meant that he ‘shall bind the nine moons to serve him’? Yet these are given equal weight with Callandor in the Cycle. There are others. What ‘wounds of madness and cutting of hope’ has he healed? What chains has he broken, and who put into chains?**
The cutting of hope could certainly refer to severing.
Callandor: 2006-10-06
**The Dark One is trapped within the Wheel, correct? Unless I'm wrong, in which case this question is irrevelent.**
No, the Dark One was imprisoned by the Creator, who then went on to create the Wheel, Pattern, One Power, etc. The Dark One is separate and beyond the Wheel and Pattern in his prison.
**Is using Balefire considered fundamentally changing the pattern? It eliminates a thread entirely from the pattern, and in the age where they were using a hellofalot of Balefire they almost unraveled the pattern, ending existance.**
You have two misunderstandings here.
1. No, balefire is not a fundamental change -- balefire has even been used to bring about a fated event (Mat's "death" and "rebirth" in The Fires of Heaven). So, it's well within the control of the Wheel. As well, it's simply coming down to the simple working of it. Who has to use balefire? A channeler. A channeler has to access the One Power and use it -- and the channeler is completely within the control of the Wheel, and won't be doing anything it does not want them to do.
2. Balefire does not entirely eliminate a thread from the Pattern. It only removes an amount of time proportional to the amount of Power used in the weave.
callmeISHAMAEL: 2006-10-09
Faking death is interesting, but why does everyone think Rand will die 2 deaths. I thought 'to live you must die' meant to live again, as in keep being reborn, he had to die at TG. There was a theory about that somewhere I'm sure. Oh, and Frenzy, It didn't work in romeo and juliet.They both killed themselves in the end.
Callandor: 2006-10-10
**Faking death is interesting, but why does everyone think Rand will die 2 deaths. I thought 'to live you must die' meant to live again, as in keep being reborn, he had to die at TG.**
Mostly a confusion in reading what is said about the dragon and heron marks Rand received, as well as taking this to liberal extensions with Alivia's and the Aelfinn's words.
Btw, if you do agree that Rand will die and his soul will live on to be reborn again and again, join the faction: Link.
Anubis: 2006-10-11
That silly Callandor, always pimping his Theories. You would think that if they could stand on their own they wouldn't need advertisement.
ForsakenRahvin: 2006-10-25
Something just occured to me with Callandor's proving of my wrongness.
"To live you must die." Didn't Mat do that, as Callandor said? Mat died, and he came back to life after Rand Balefired Rahvin to hell, undoing everything he did.
What if Moridin kills Rand in the Rand in the last battle, then Alivia Balefires Moridin to hell (like Rand did to Rahvin), and Rand comes back. Would that not constitue as him dieing, then coming back to life?
Callandor: 2006-10-27
**What if Moridin kills Rand in the Rand in the last battle, then Alivia Balefires Moridin to hell (like Rand did to Rahvin), and Rand comes back. Would that not constitue as him dieing, then coming back to life?**
It's been more than said before. I just highly doubt Jordan is that unoriginal.
RedHandedFool: 2007-02-27
**You are absolutely wrong. Jordan didn’t show that the light won every time. Infact, all Jordan showed was that the dark one has never succeeded in subverting the dragon. The dragon has always fought against the dark one. He has always fought FOR the light, and AGAINST the dark one. This in no way proves that the light has always won during each of these confrontations. **
I don't know why he would contradict himself. He quite ruins it by saying that. I don't have the book next to me, but I darn well remember Hawking saying that he hasn't always fought side by side with The Dragon. So maybe the Light always winning is true, because I'm positive Hawking said that.
Another thing. Nicola's foretelling shows that Rand is alive after TG.
He is alive and ready to help end battle in the world, or something like that.
I agree with the Twice to die being just him marked for death twice.
As for Moridin? Rand will fight him, but I think that will be before TG.
Say they fake Rand's death in that battle, then Rand has Bashere and Logain lead a march on SG. Shadow thinks their sure of victory, and out of nowhere Rand shows up. That would be a pretty nice military tactic...
mister molineux: 2008-09-07
I like the idea of Rand faking his own death but I see it in a different way, sort of death and resurrection, Rand die's psysically and the resurrection brings about a transformation in Rand that kills the persona of Rand to be replaced by the Dragon persona.
RJ's initial idea for the books was what would happen if you were tapped on the shoulder and told that you were the saviour of mankind. In the end what exactly would becoming the saviour of mankind mean, and who would you have to become.
At the moment Rand seems to think this is to become really hard so that he can bear to do what must be done, but I think its got more to do with a personal transformation, kind of a death of the persona of Rand al'Thor replaced with the persona of the Dragon that would be the embodiment of the savior ideal. I'm thinking in terms of the heroes of the horn who are the symbols or certain ideals. Each time that they are spun out they have certain personalities but it is the ideals that they represent that make them heroes. They represent an ideal at a moment in time that has the effect of setting the pattern back on its correct course. In this context the question that I ask is what are the ideals that Rand as the dragon has been spun out to represent at the last battle?
Becuase of this I see the series as a transformation of Rand from village boy through to saviour of the world. As part of this process I would see that Rand's individual personality would have to 'die' in order for the 'Dragon' to emerge. To my mind this is the purpose that Alivia is going to serve by somehow bringing about this final transformation. Further to this, I'm thinking of Herid Fel's musings in LOC about the wheel turning and the bore in the dark ones prison being bored and resealed at some point in the turning of the wheel the dark ones prison has to be resealed as 'good as new'. If we assume that the creator does not do this directly perhaps it is done through the saviour proxy of the dragon as the embodiment of the light, in order to become which, the persona of Rand would have to 'die', or at the very least become a part of something greater.
mike727: 2010-01-15
I think you're close. After reading The Gathering Storm, I don't think the persona of Rand will die. The dragon will die.
***** SPOILER******
At the end of the Gathering Storm, Rand and LTT finaly become one. Could this mean that LTT can finaly rest, that he has been awarded redeption from his previous failings?