1
Tamyrlin: 2000-11-16
I guess with the finns, nothing is impossible as far as we know. Could they have placed Moiraine's soul into Alivia's body? Alivia does seem to have similar manerisms as Moiraine, but the more and more channelers RJ introduces us to the more that have similar characteristics.
2
Therilon: 2002-11-15
I don't believe this, but what if Moiraine and Lanfear merged?
3
Eilonwy: 2002-11-17
I would have to disagree about Moiraine being Alivia. While the Finns do have a twisted sense of humor, there is Egwene's dream to consider. Thom pulling the jewel from the fire has been largely interpreted to mean that he'll save her from the Finns. We also see Olver playing Snakes and Foxes a lot with a ton of emphasis being placed on the fact that you can't win without cheating. I think that "Finnland" has a larger role yet to play.
4
Callandor: 2002-12-11
I think this is a good idea but with one possible flaw. I myself am not sure but I think that Lanfear might remember being put back into the real world and who said that the finns dont have a rusty since of humor and might use the same trick on Moirane. So if she was Alivia born 300-400 years ago then she would know all that time who she was. And if the Pattern had two people acting differently, Moirane before going into Finnland and Moirane afterwards as Alivia, then i think it would cause some MAJOR problems. Just a thought.
5
jason: 2003-01-06
Another point to make about boomshanka's theory is that Alivia may not have been stronger than Lanfear. On page 741 of WH, Nynaeve gives Alivia her angreal to use and says "You might as well take this too. I don't suppose I need an angreal if I'm going to be using the most powerful sa'angreal ever made" Just something to think about
6
Galadriel: 2003-01-23
Using Occam's Razor on Lanfaer, it seems most likely that she died and was ressurected ala Arangar/Osangar by the Dark One. That explains the new body. The loss of power in saidar could be as simple as a part of her punishment by the Dark One for failing him. I lean towards this since she is in a mindtrap which we know is a form of Dark One punishment (ie: Moghedien). I think Moiraine is still trapped in that other world and is waiting for Thom to come rescue her.
7
Anubis: 2003-01-23
Alivia is stronger then lanfear WAS. Lanfear/Cyndane says so when she encounters Alivia at the end of WH. And for those of you who think it was the angrael, cyndane says that Alivia must ALSO have an angreal.
8
migster: 2003-01-25
One item of interest is that, until Alivia, we have encountered no damane that retained a sense of self, or independent will, or willingness to be unleashed. All other damane, within a relatively short time on the leash, are terrified to be free of it. Alivia exhibits none of the attributes expected in one who has worn the collar for hundreds of years. While this is not a conclusive indicator, it does point to something being odd about Alivia and when RJ teases us with something out of the ordinary, it often results in a surprise.
Conversely, Min didn't make any connection between her viewings of Moiraine and Alivia. Again nothing conclusive but interesting.
All that being said, I don't agree with the theory but it's an interesting idea.
9
mako0424: 2003-11-14
Well, there are some ludicrous and some pretty insightful theories. I would first of like to say, excellent point on the Thom, moiraine, Finnland thing. i think Olver and Thom together are going to rescue Moiraine, and it will be Olver who knows how, because of the game Snakes and Foxes, he will learn how to win withouth cheating. As for Alivia, She will play a very crucial role in Tarmon Gaidon and Rand's life (or death) how is still much of a mystery, but some important points.
She is Seanchan
Has the highest O. power potential yet (except for maybe Sharina)
She also has some special character trait that alloweed her to retain her identity, even after 400 years of collarization.
I believe nynaeve will be elsewhere during Tarmon Gaidon, and Alivia will come through as Rand's savior and killer.
10
timetorollthedice: 2004-02-25
I don't know about Moiraine. I believe that Lanfear asked the Finns to be able to go kill Asmodean so he wouldn't tattle on her.
Her price was death, (as Mat's was supposed to be) and then she was transmigrated. Simple.
Moiraine wasn't quite as arrogant as Lanfear and so may have seen the potential in not setting the terms prior to asking. The question remains, if she is alive, what has she been doing for the past several books. I don't think RJ will use amnesia. She's probably held captive in the Tower of Ghenji (sp?) where Tom and Mat (or whoever) will go and save her Jewel just in time!
11
Darren: 2004-03-30
"Alivia is stronger then lanfear WAS. Lanfear/Cyndane says so when she encounters Alivia at the end of WH"
Anubis, Alivia was wearing an angreal when Cyndane says this (she got it from Nynaeve):
"You might as well take this too. I don't suppose I need an angreal if I'm going to be using the most powerful sa'angreal ever made." WH: With the Choedan Kal
All we know for sure about Alivia is that she is more powerful than Nynaeve, but it is important to remember that Alivia is at the height of her powers, whereas Nynaeve has only recently broken her block. She is still gaining in power. We do NOT know that Alivia is more powerful than Lanfear.
12
free will: 2005-06-24
Anubis: Alivia is stronger then lanfear WAS
Actually, are you completely certain? If Moiraine and Alivia are the same person, then Alivia was in Finnland, there is a pronoun at the end of the quote that is interpreted as being about Cyndane (but most people would say "me" not "her") but it could be comparing Moiraine to Alivia and simply saying that Alivia is stronger.
13
free will: 2005-06-24
Callandor: I think this is a good idea but with one possible flaw. I myself am not sure but I think that Lanfear might remember being put back into the real world and who said that the finns dont have a rusty since of humor and might use the same trick on Moirane. So if she was Alivia born 300-400 years ago then she would know all that time who she was.
We aren't sure that Lanfear got any wishes, she may not have been a Finn-virgin and that's why she was dragged, maybe even Lanfear could *only* have been brought through with both of them channeling through an agrael at the same time, to compensate for Lanfear's non-virgin status. And if Lanfear asked for wishes, she could have asked to retain all her special knowledge. Whereas Moiraine might have asked for the skills, power, and opportunity to help Rand do X at TG, having gotten the name of thing X from the other Finns in Tear. X being helping Rand die, of course.
14
free will: 2005-06-24
Darren: "Alivia is stronger then lanfear WAS. Lanfear/Cyndane says so when she encounters Alivia at the end of WH"
Anubis, Alivia was wearing an angreal when Cyndane says this (she got it from Nynaeve):
"You might as well take this too. I don't suppose I need an angreal if I'm going to be using the most powerful sa'angreal ever made." WH: With the Choedan Kal
Women can tell how strong another woman both is and will be. Men can only tell how strong another man is right now, nothing about what he will be. It's a fundamental difference, like how men can tell which other men can learn and how women can not tell if another woman can learn (the woman has to tell them that they feel it, sparkers might just start channeling, but then the sparker risks burning herself out in the first weave she ever does). It's in the BWB. And Cyndane comments that Alivia is stronger than a women was prior to Finnland, and Cyndane comments that in addition to being so strong in the OP, Alivia is also using an angreal. I agree that we do not know that Alivia is more powerful than Lanfear (or Cyndane), but to me that's because Cyndane starts thinking in the third person in a very confusing manner, just to hide something signifigant if I know RJ.
15
free will: 2005-06-24
Eilonwy: Thom pulling the jewel from the fire has been largely interpreted to mean that he'll save her from the Finns.
That's a good point that this theory, by necessity, has to (re)interpret that Dream as well. Moiraine's jewel isn't the same as herself, it's related to her AS nature and/or her Cairhein nature. It's also possible that Moiraine did something tricky like putting some memories into her literal jewel, which Thom literally has to extract, give to Alivia, who now get's her memories. If you read the writing on Mat's ashendari it seems to imply that memories can N-O-T be sent back in time, so if Moiraine had to go back in time to be able to have Rand trust her, then she might have to find a different route for her memories to follow to get to her memories to TG.
If Thom is going to Finnland for the jewel and Moiraine is "already out", this isn't much different. Rand didn't trust Moiraine, if Moiraine had done what she could as Moiraine, then she may have asked for a new life that specifically would be at TG, powerful, trained, and capable of helping Rand die and be in a position to have a role that Rand trust, as part of helping, not forcing him to die. So if we assume that souls can be sent back in time, but not memories (thought is the arrow of time) then Moiraine could be Alivia but Thom has to rescue the memories.
16
Narianna: 2005-06-24
actually if you look at the battle between alivia and cyndane you will see that cyndane is shocked that alivia is holding more power than even lanfear could handle UNAIDED<
so she rightly concludes that that alivia is using an angreal.
as for relative strengths of alivia and cyndane , iseem to remember coming across on wotmania.com
a 21 level list on the power of women.
the list is quite comprehensive and uses the info in the books to derive the list.
in that list cyndane is still the most powerful channeler(female) alive followed by graendal,then semi,mesaana and alivia.
you can have alook at the list but admittedly it is somewhat vague and the evidence of the books itself it open to different interpretations.
17
Yaga Shura: 2005-06-24
"The Finns can twist all of her requests at once by having her spun out into a beautiful baby Seanchan girl, about 300-400 years ago."
Doesn't this require Moiraine to have been in two places at once for her entire life? Is it possible for one thread to be in two separate bodies at the same time? And doesn't it also suggest that the Finns have a massive degree of control over the Pattern, in addition to the ability to time travel, since they are determining where a thread will go, which is supposed to be the job of the Wheel, and to a lesser extent, the individual person? Seems completely impossible to me.
18
SDog: 2005-06-24
Free Will wrote: Women can tell how strong another woman both is and will be...It's in the BWB.
But is there a distance limitation on this? I don't think women can tell from any distance, and I think Cyndane's comment makes it clear that she can't gauge Alivia's personal strength.
And Cyndane comments that Alivia is stronger than a women was prior to Finnland, and Cyndane comments that in addition to being so strong in the OP, Alivia is also using an angreal. I agree that we do not know that Alivia is more powerful than Lanfear (or Cyndane), but to me that's because Cyndane starts thinking in the third person in a very confusing manner, just to hide something signifigant if I know RJ.
Well, if you've read my "Lanfear is Artificial" theory, you know how I think about this. Cyndane thinks that the ONLY way Alivia could be stronger than Lanfear WAS, is if Alivia has an angreal. That is, she has an angreal, in addition to being very strong. But it is the angreal only that puts her above Lanfear's previous strength.
Keep in mind that Cyndane had no way of knowing Alivia had an angreal. She guessed that was the case because Alivia was holding so much of the OP. She guessed right, which implies that no one oculd be stronger than Lanfear was.
19
free will: 2005-06-24
And doesn't it also suggest that the Finns have a massive degree of control over the Pattern
Seeing and reporting on the future is already a massive power. There are self-fullfilling prophecies and worse there are outright paradoxes of preknowledge. They are powerful, RJ was asked what the limits are, and the limits are that they can't affect other people. If they've seen Rand's thread, then they can make Alivia such that Rand would trust her, they can't alter Rand to make him trust Moiraine, not if Moiraine went through and Rand wasn't there. Maybe Alivia went through the Tower of Genji and the price was her soul and when Moiraine went through, they collected on the debt, there are so many possibilities. Since Alivia doesn't have Moiraine's memories (yet?) it might be unclear if she has the same soul she was born with. Maybe the Finn can transmigrate souls of people they have been in contact with.
20
Anubis: 2005-06-24
**a 21 level list on the power of women.
the list is quite comprehensive and uses the info in the books to derive the list.
in that list cyndane is still the most powerful channeler(female) alive followed by graendal,then semi,mesaana and alivia.**
These comprehensive lists are always crap. Ignore them. Alivia and Sharina are the strongest female channelers, bar none. And in your list Sharina didnt even make the top three. Not to mention the quote in which Cyndane states that Alivia is stronger then her.
21
Anubis: 2005-06-25
**Maybe Alivia went through the Tower of Genji and the price was her soul and when Moiraine went through, they collected on the debt, there are so many possibilities.**
Yes, because Dammae go to the tower of Genji all the time. And through doorframe Ter'Angreals. Dammae and the Finns are like this (crosses fingers).
22
free will: 2005-06-25
Anubis: Yes, because Dammae go to the tower of Genji all the time. And through doorframe Ter'Angreals. Dammae and the Finns are like this (crosses fingers).
The point is to reason similarly to the Artificial Lanfear theory. Alivia could be artificially strong. Maybe strength in the power relates to how long you live and she asked for a long life, but got strong channeling and a trip to Seanchan instead of her naive expectation. The point is that she could have gone through the tower first and become a damane later. If Alivia had dealt with the Finns to live 300 years and got strong channeling and a trip to Seanchan so that she was a damane the whole time and still has to surrender her soul at a later point, that might be a non-time travelling way for the Finns to transmigrate Moiraine's soul into that body. And obviously anyone who can go to T'A'R could simply imagine a doorway or a tower hard enough and use it. Since normal people can sometimes go to T'A'R for a second, that might have been long enough to have the stepping through part happen in T'A'R which would mean a real trip to Finnland.
23
JakOShadows: 2005-06-25
freewill: In another posting, it was brought up that the tower of ravens could be like the tower of Genji in which it brings the person being tortured to finnland. I haven't found evidence to prove that yet, so your going out on limb saying that Alivia went finnland. I find this theory hard to believe personally because there is so much that is hard to prove. I'm pretty sure I've said this before, but I don't believe there's enough evidence to know what has happened to Moraine.
24
Callandor: 2005-06-27
**Whereas Moiraine might have asked for the skills, power, and opportunity to help Rand do X at TG, having gotten the name of thing X from the other Finns in Tear. X being helping Rand die, of course.**
So, you're saying that the Finn put Moiraine, as Alivia, back 413 years in the past, let her grow up, live as a damane all that time, then get freed by Rand and now in his service? While keeping this simple, and ignoring the issue of Moiraine being alive at this time as well.
And with the knowledge that the Finn cannot affect the real world (thanks to the Tor Q&A). Granted, the question was vague, and the answer as vague, and we have example of what one might call direct Randland influence -- yet not to any degree that you seem to be suggesting. Giving someone to the tools to do what they wish is what the Finn can do -- changing the world so that they already have what they want, is not.
**Doesn't this require Moiraine to have been in two places at once for her entire life?**
Yes, it does. Which is why I don't believe it.
**Is it possible for one thread to be in two separate bodies at the same time?**
To be technical, it would be soul, not thread ;)
**Seeing and reporting on the future is already a massive power. There are self-fullfilling prophecies and worse there are outright paradoxes of preknowledge.**
It is, but that is not the control of the Randland world, as you seem to be ascribing.
And to point out, no, there are not self-fulfilling prophecies in Randland. There are only prophecies. Min has shown this many times. Just because you know something is going to happen, does not make it happen in Randland -- it will happen anyway (well, most events I mean -- free will does play some part in smaller choices). They were pre-planned.
**Maybe the Finn can transmigrate souls of people they have been in contact with.**
By all the knowledge of the series we have, I can tell you whole-heartedly, and completely, no. The only powers that are even considered for that, would be:
1. The Pattern -- not technically transmigration, it's rebirth, but it's essentially the same concept (essentially, so don't immidately jump down my throat blabbering about how I am incorrect here, or you are not at all reading what I am saying).
2. The Dark One -- we know he can do this.
3. The Creator -- he never intervenes anyway, but it's assumed that he can.
The Dark One and the Creator have a commonality -- they are beyond the Wheel and Pattern. The Finn are not. They are apart of the Pattern.
** Maybe strength in the power relates to how long you live and she asked for a long life, but got strong channeling and a trip to Seanchan instead of her naive expectation.**
There is no maybe about being strong in the Power being a longer life -- it's a fact that the stronger you are, the less you age (IE: the more you slow), and the longer you live.
25
Anubis: 2005-06-27
**And obviously anyone who can go to T'A'R could simply imagine a doorway or a tower hard enough and use it. Since normal people can sometimes go to T'A'R for a second, that might have been long enough to have the stepping through part happen in T'A'R which would mean a real trip to Finnland.**
Now Alivia is not only Moiraine, and artifically enhanced, she is also a dreamer. I would love for you to present evidence for ANY of those.
26
free will: 2005-06-30
Well, if you've read my "Lanfear is Artificial" theory, you know how I think about this. Cyndane thinks that the ONLY way Alivia could be stronger than Lanfear WAS, is if Alivia has an angreal. That is, she has an angreal, in addition to being very strong. But it is the angreal only that puts her above Lanfear's previous strength.
Keep in mind that Cyndane had no way of knowing Alivia had an angreal. She guessed that was the case because Alivia was holding so much of the OP. She guessed right, which implies that no one oculd be stronger than Lanfear was.
You are confusing strength in the power, which women call potential, with the amount of the One Power being held. Cyndane, being a woman looking at a woman, can tell both. Stronger is about potential, that's what strength in the power means for women. Having an angrael is deduced from knowing the potential and comparing that to how much of the One Power is held.
27
timmooo: 2006-03-30
I dont believe this could occur as alivia had been damane for 300 years (approx). The creator would have put in precausions to make certain this could not occur. I do not beleive that the finns would be able to do this. What would have happened to alivias soul. There is no evidense any were that the finns can morph time in that way. And what about KoD. In that book we see the letter moirane wrote to thom. How could thom go and resue her if she is moirane
28
Dragonrider: 2006-06-07
Free Will: you said that Moiraine could have asked for the ability to do X at TG. You also said that she would know what X was from the finns in Tear. However, she would never have asked this because she told Rand and Mat to never ask about things that touch the Shadow, or face terrible consequences. (Sorry I don't have a direct quote) obviously, TG touches the shadow.
29
kozma37: 2008-04-17
ok seriously does no one remember that Alivia used to be a Demane ????? when Rand attked the Seanchan in ACoS he captured her and sent her to Elyane in Andor ..????
Alivia has been a demane since she was 14 or 15 and has been one for over 400 years .... i hope this clears this theory btw ..
30
JakOShadows: 2008-04-18
i think this theory has been dead for a while, so you don't have to worry too much.
31
Dragon Tamer: 2008-04-22
this is way too far fetched. This would mean that at one point that moiraine existed in two places at once and that there were two of her. This is totally ridiculous it shouldn't have even made it as a theory. RJ has never mentioned time travel so why he would make it so important for the last book? No, as knife of dreams states she is in finnland and mat is going to save her. How can he save her in finnland if she is in tear with Rand?
