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aim
by bluecar: 2004-04-15 | Not yet rated
Previous Categories: The Black Tower
TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 5 - Questioners
"Joiya shrugged. "As you wish. Let me see. Different words. The false Dragon, Mazrim Taim, who was captured in Saldaea, can channel with incredible strength. Perhaps as much as Rand al'Thor, or nearly so, if the reports can be believed. Before he can be brought to Tar Valon and gentled, Liandrin means to break him free. He will be proclaimed as the Dragon Reborn, his name given as Rand al'Thor, and then he will be set to destruction on such a scale as the world has not seen since the War of the Hundred Years."
Taim escaped from captivity. He was shielded by sisters and guarded by warders. It is unlikely that Taim escaped by himself (it took Rand an incredible effort plus a voice in his head helping him to escape from a sheild and that was in the middle of a batttle.)
Taim had help escaping. He would need someone very powerful to take out that many sisters and warders.
Remnants of Taim's army? Where are they now? After freeing Taim, they just shrugged their shoulders and left? This seems very unlikely. After Taim's capture they were scattered and the White Tower would have been keeping an eye out for a rescue of that kind.
The 13 dark sisters? Even they would have trouble freeing a man who could channel from other sisters and warders.
One of the Chosen? Seems the most probable candidate. They would be able to take out multiple sisters and warders if they had the advantage of surprise and a few hundred trollocs to help.
The most likely probability and the second most likely probability both involve the Shadow. I think it's safe to say that no one of the Light would have freed Taim.
So, The Shadow goes through all the trouble to free Taim, only to let him go of his own free will? Not a paper dog chasing an asbestos cat through hell's chance. Taim was freed by the Shadow, either because he already served the shadow (protecting him from the Taint(I don't by the protection from the Taint theory because when Rand used the traveling stones there were several lives where he looked to survive for quite a while)) or because he could be turned to the Shadow.
Taim serves the Shadow, most likely one of the forsaken. While personal profit and greed could prompt him to attempt to kill Rand, no sane person could possibly believe that the last battle could be won without the Dragon Reborn.
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2004-06-02
You bring up a good point; have we dissected Taim's escape enough to understand who helped him get free. I went back and did some searching, and for some reason I didn't remember the following quote "How?" "This only says he was taken away by stealth in the night, Mother. Two sisters are dead." It wasn't mass carnage. Two sisters were killed, not even a warder is mentioned among the dead. It occurred by stealth, at night. Shadowspawn would likely have been detected by the Aes Sedai, so it would had to have been someone who could quickly kill two Aes Sedai without raising alarm (likely Reds who don't have warders). Can it be possible that only two Aes Sedai were shielding him? It had to have been only the two, otherwise the third would have raised the alarm, but the way it is described sounds like they got out with none the wiser. Sounds like a job done by one or two individuals, with the one power. It wouldn't surprise me to find out it was Demandred. Comments anyone?
Anubis: 2004-06-02
taim is fairly powerful. i dont think 2 would have been able to maintain a shield. i would suspect that some of the sisters shielding him (the other 3 or 4) (i think it is mentioned that traditionally no less then 6 to hold a shield) were black aja and freed him due to forsaken orders.
WinespringBrother: 2004-06-02
"Lord of Chaos CH: 30 - To Heal Again
"I think the least we can do is shield him until we are absolutely certain," Sheriam suggested. Romanda nodded, and a shield sprang into being strong enough to hold a giant as the glow of saidar surrounded nearly every woman in the room. Romanda restored a little order by briskly naming six to maintain a lesser but adequate shield."
"Lord of Chaos CH: 51 - The Taking
Rand turned his eyes back to the rafters. Six Aes Sedai sat in chairs around the cage, sustaining the shield on him. He maintained the Void, in case they should slip, but he did not lunge at the barrier. When they first pushed him stumbling into the cage, he had; some of them had laughed, those who took any notice. Now he reached gingerly instead toward the fury of saidin, a storm of fire and ice still just out of sight beyond the corner of his eye. He reached, and felt at the invisible wall cutting him off from the Source, slid along it as though trying to find an edge. What he found was a place where the wall seemed to become Six points; they stopped him as effectively, but they were Six, not one, and definitely points."
From these two quotes (the first referencing Logain after he was ungentled by Nynaeve in Salidar), 6 seems to be the lucky # when it comes to maintaining shields by Aes Sedai on male channelers. Which brings up an interesting point, regarding the casualties and the note that Siuan received. If 6 were shielding Taim, and only 2 died, then 4 eyewitnesses survived. Now if they were attacked by Aes Sedai, they may have added an extra bit in the note such as "We were attacked by other sisters. What the -----?" At least alerting Siuan to betrayal within the Tower, if not outright Black Ajah activity. And in the unlikely event that only 2 were shielding, they still have the forensic skills such that Nisao displayed in the Rebel Aes Sedai camp who was able to determine how the sisters were killed. In the very least they should have been able to see if any saidar channeling was involved and therefore any Black Sisters, though saidin detection may not have been the strong suit of those escorting Taim.
dragonsceptor: 2004-06-02
I like Tam's assessment. A couple other thoughts. I don't think it was done with Saidar. Just because only 6 sisters are needed to maintain a shield does not mean that more would not be around. There would likely be many others around to take shifts. If enough Saidar was used to kill two sisters, other AS would have felt it. They couldn't all be black. So, either the two who were killed were killed with Saidin or were not killed with the OP.
1) Saidin: Two possiblities on how this could be accomplished. 4 of the 6 AS holding the shield are BA and release their hold, Taim breaks the shield and kills the two sisters with Saidin. This has the drawback of the BA explaining how the shield was broken. The other possiblity is that a male channeller (most likely a forsaken named Damendred) used saidin to kill the two AS.
2) The OP was not used. who do we know that could kill two AS in stealth? Slayer. Slayer could have appeared in the tent, killed the two AS, taken Taim and took off.
I personally think Damendred is most likely. The other 4 sisters who did not die don't even necessarily need to be BA. All that needs to happen is the rescuer disable them...ie the whole circle is wounded and two are mortally wounded.
Callandor: 2004-06-02
**2) The OP was not used. who do we know that could kill two AS in stealth? Slayer. Slayer could have appeared in the tent, killed the two AS, taken Taim and took off.**
Not to be picky, but we haven't seen him kill any unshielded sisters. Slayer is still a human, and however stealthy he is, the One Power is the fastest gun in the west. Bound once with Air, and he is useless.
**taim is fairly powerful. i dont think 2 would have been able to maintain a shield. i would suspect that some of the sisters shielding him (the other 3 or 4) (i think it is mentioned that traditionally no less then 6 to hold a shield) were black aja and freed him due to forsaken orders.**
The book never says how many sisters were sent after him; it only mentions "sisters" until we find out that two were killed in his escape.
Assuming that due to Taim's strength, and what seems like a standard Aes Sedai tradition, that there were in fact six Aes Sedai shielding and guarding Taim, what does this imply?
I can think of two possibilities (and favor one):
1. All six were killed, and only two were mentioned or discovered killed in the note.
2. The other four Aes Sedai were Black Ajah, and followed orders for Taim's release.
#1 doesn't make much sense. If all six were killed, why not mention two killed Aes Sedai, and four missing ones? If all six were killed, who sent the note in the first place (an important question reguardless of the number of sisters)?
#2 is also shakey, but in my mind, more convincing. What happened to the four Aes Sedai, who willingly released Taim due to orders? Did they run away? Why isn't their disappearence in the note then? Did they return to the Tower? Why hasn't their return made some kind of news (it would, them being the ones who knew the story of his escape, however vague)?
Also, if these ask too many questions that can be answered, then maybe it is something to do with the conditions. What if there was only two Aes Sedai capturing him? Does it imply bad form on Taim, or on the sisters?
I personally favor the Black Ajah way, with orders from Forsaken.
snakes-n-foxes: 2004-06-02
I don't think it could have been Black Ajah on the orders of the forsaken - for a very simple reason - those black ajah would have to explain themselves - and barring a good explantion (which they wouldn't have), would never be trusted again, and would be watched (because it seems a LOT of sisters suspect the existance of the BA). This would make them rather ineffective as secret BA sisters, and possibly put other BA sisters at risk (so then, those BA sisters at risk would likely kill those that returned).
If there were other sisters there (most likely)...and the survivors returned without Taim in the circumstances they did...they still wouldn't have a good reason for his escape, and wouldn't be trusted...but there would be no threat to BA security.
Anubis: 2004-06-02
Callandor. with the 4 blacks you are forgetting somthing. they can lie. they can make up any story they want (we were convieniantly knocked unconscious, we were distracted by shiney swords etc) and the story will be believed without question because of the three oaths. they could also lie and say they were overwhelmed and had to run.
Cambo: 2004-06-03
It strikes me that there is a possibility that is being overlooked. We don't actually know how many sisters were keeping an eye on Taim. As six appear to be the favoured number it is unlikely that there would have been less than that, however people need to sleep, even Aes Sedai. It is possible that some of the sisters, say four for example, tied of their weaves leaving Taim shielded and left two sisters on duty, assuming that if Taim tried anything they would give warning. All it takes then is a good assassin and a bit of forkroot and hey presto two dead sisters and Taim on the loose.
a dragonburned fool: 2004-06-03
... another possibilities:
1. 2 killed, and 4 stunned or drugged or made inconscious in some other manner, so surprisingly, that they can not be witnesses.
1.2. All 6 drugged or stunned, and the two others killed when surprisingly meeting the rescue-master.
2. Some intrigues between the sisters in the escort team, that leaved it only with two sisters maintaining the shield, or another situation giving to Taim chance to free himself. Something like: "it will be our Red Ajah merit to bring him to the Tower, not yours...". Is a case of blunder the residue of the rescue team will try to deck their butts.
charliec: 2004-06-03
Don't forget the third possibility...
We've seen another male channeller released by stealth in the night- Logain. Egwene and Siuan managed that with no confrontation, by just using judicious quantities of drugs.
I agree that Taim was almost certainly freed by darkfriends/forsaken, but it needn't even have been a channeller- someone could just have drugged the guards and Aes Sedai... and slit the throats of two sisters who looked like they might get in the way of his escape... maybe a darkfriend warder or some such.
We just don't have enough info.
What remains the most important question is how much did Taim know about what was going on? was he aware that the shadow was helping him? did he care?
Callandor: 2004-06-03
**Callandor. with the 4 blacks you are forgetting somthing. they can lie. they can make up any story they want (we were convieniantly knocked unconscious, we were distracted by shiney swords etc) and the story will be believed without question because of the three oaths. they could also lie and say they were overwhelmed and had to run.**
Once again, whether they lie or not, does not matter one bit in the long run.
If six Aes Sedai were guarding Taim, the seems to be standard for shielding a male channeler, and two are dead, then the fou remaining would've been remarked upon.
There would've been a "Two Aes Sedai were killed, and the other four are on their way here." Or, if all six were killed, "Six Aes Sedai died." Or if they weren't found. "Two Aes Sedai are dead, and four are missing."
Is there anything like this at all? No. We only know of the two dying. There is nothing about the return to the Tower for the remaining four Aes Sedai, or any told about outcome of their fates.
Going off this, it seems that the number was not six. There are too many things that would be different if there were six.
Therefore, I think it is not correct to assume their were six Aes Sedai guarding Taim. Most likely, there were two Aes Sedai who were in Saldaea by chance, they were called up when Taimw as found unconcious (or maybe they found him), and shielded him.
No one says Aes Sedai are always the brightest of people ;)
charliec: 2004-06-04
Just because it wasn't commented on doesn't mean it didn't happen...
The Tower knew about Taim before he was struck down, and I'm pretty certain they'd already sent Aes Sedai against him, that there were only two left would seem unlikely.
snakes-n-foxes: 2004-06-04
Callandor, whether or not we are told if there were only 2 guarding Taim, or more.
We only have to look at Dumai's Wells to take a good guess though. Rand escaped whilst the shield was held by (was it 4?). Whilst the battle provided a distraction, I'm quite sure the Aes Sedai there, once they realised Rand was attempting to break free, put everything into maintaining that shield...and failed.
Taim is perhaps almost as strong as Rand...two sisters would never have been enough to hold him (if he'd known how to break through, but one would presume that he would have tried everything he could think of, searching for a weakness in the shield)
Just a thought, but personally, I cannot see how only two sisters would have guarded him.
Also, isn't it also standard to have at least 13 sisters go after a known false dragon (one that's gathered armies). Even that number would allow for a shift rotation of 4 per turn.
Callandor: 2004-06-06
**Just because it wasn't commented on doesn't mean it didn't happen...**
Actually, it really does. It isn't commented on that Rand beat up 7 kids in Emond's Field, before going home with Tam; so did it happen? Well, no mention, we have no reason to assume so, so we can infer that it didn't happen. Otherwise theories that Rand went to Shayol Ghul when he was 15, and swore to the Dark One, start popping up, because we cannot disprove them because they aren't mentioned (yes, I know this one is easy to disprove; just giving an example).
**The Tower knew about Taim before he was struck down, and I'm pretty certain they'd already sent Aes Sedai against him, that there were only two left would seem unlikely.**
And I would assume they would. But again, why aren't more mentioned? If more then two were sent, then Siuan must of sent them. She does not think, after the two dead Aes Sedai are mentioned, that other Aes Sedai are still there, or on their way home.
**Callandor, whether or not we are told if there were only 2 guarding Taim, or more.**
?
**We only have to look at Dumai's Wells to take a good guess though. Rand escaped whilst the shield was held by (was it 4?). Whilst the battle provided a distraction, I'm quite sure the Aes Sedai there, once they realised Rand was attempting to break free, put everything into maintaining that shield...and failed.
Taim is perhaps almost as strong as Rand...two sisters would never have been enough to hold him (if he'd known how to break through, but one would presume that he would have tried everything he could think of, searching for a weakness in the shield)
Just a thought, but personally, I cannot see how only two sisters would have guarded him.
Also, isn't it also standard to have at least 13 sisters go after a known false dragon (one that's gathered armies). Even that number would allow for a shift rotation of 4 per turn.**
Yes, snakes-and-foxes, you would assume that. But, that is not mentioned. You would think that 6 Aes Sedai would be guarding Taim (and there were 6 guarding Rand, not 4; however the link did get down to 3 active channeling Aes Sedai, I believe, allowing Rand to escape). But we only know of two.
Also, Taim didn't have Lews Therin guiding him through how to break the shields ;) So unless Taim knew how to snap set weaves, and allowing the chance to do so (when there are, as you said, active rotations of Aes Sedai), and then getting free. Two Aes Sedai, makes it more believable that Taim simply overpowered them himself, via pure strength.
And the only weakness in the shield, is if it is knotted and tied off. Other then that, you cannot (as far as we know) break through an active shield, unless you simply overpower it.
Nynaeve and Talaan's duel is a great example of this (even though it seems to imply a way around it ;)). They being of roughly equal strength, once either is shielded, it's over. The other one has total control.
charliec: 2004-06-06
**Actually, it really does. It isn't commented on that Rand beat up 7 kids in Emond's Field, before going home with Tam; so did it happen? Well, no mention, we have no reason to assume so, so we can infer that it didn't happen. Otherwise theories that Rand went to Shayol Ghul when he was 15, and swore to the Dark One, start popping up, because we cannot disprove them because they aren't mentioned (yes, I know this one is easy to disprove; just giving an example).**
Such theories are easily disproved where they touch on major points in the books, like Rand being against the DO, but where they deal only with minor themes it becomes very hard to say for or against (especially with non-ridiculous ideas).
The message only mentions 2 dead Aes Sedai, but at best the absence of other Aes Sedai being mentioned is a VERY weak suggestion that there were only two guards. We cannot begin to draw conclusions from it, especially where the idea of having only two guards on a channeller like Taim goes so contrary to expectation and common sense.
So it's not a particularly useful piece of evidence...
WinespringBrother: 2004-06-06
We know of at least one Sister who survived Taim's escape. Cadsuane helped capture Taim, and surely would not have let a mere two sisters go off to escort him to Tar Valon. So if she helped escort him (which is not definite given that she didn't escort Logain) and there were Black sisters involved, that may have been brought up in one of her POV's since she has been worried about the Black Ajah.
Anubis: 2004-06-08
cadsuane says that escorting taim (or was it logain?) appealed to her about as much as the roses. I think it was logain, she says that it was logain practically on her doorstep that lured her away from her roses. I dont think she was involved with taim.
dedoublya: 2004-06-08
i'm pretty sure cadsuane said something about going after logain and taim, but not being bothered to actually ecsort them back to the tower. Outherwise she would have had to return to the tower, something she seems to like avoiding.
Callandor: 2004-06-08
**I dont think she was involved with taim.**
She was. Whether her involvement in Taim was shielding him, I don't think can be extrapelated by the quotes:
**TITLE: Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 19 - Diamonds and Stars
Cadsuane shook her head in pitying style. "If you want to see what a man is made of, push him from a direction he doesn't expect. There's good metal in that boy, I think, but he's going to be difficult." Steepling her fingers, she peered across them at the wall, musing to herself. "He has a rage in him fit to burn the world, and he holds it by a hair. Push him too far off balance .... Phaw! Al'Thor's not so hard yet as Logain Ablar or Mazrim Taim, but a hundred times as difficult, I fear." Hearing those three names together clove Merana's tongue to the roof of her mouth.
"You have seen Logain and Taim both?" a staring Annoura said. "Taim, he is following al'Thor, so I hear." Merana managed to swallow a relieved sigh. Tales of Dumai's Wells had not had time to spread yet. They would, though.
Breathing the steam from her teacup, Cadsuane went on, suddenly chatting pleasantly. "It was Logain, practically on my doorstep, that lured me away from my roses. Phaw! A scuffle at a sheep fair could have lured me from those Light-cursed plants. What's the point if you use the Power, but do it without, and you grow ten thousand thorns for every— Phaw! I actually considered taking the oath as a Hunter, if the Council of Nine would allow it. Well. It was a nice few months, chasing down Logain, but once he was taken, escorting him to Tar Valon appealed as much as the roses. I wandered a bit, to see what I could find, perhaps a new Warder, though it's a bit late for that in any fairness to the man, I suppose. Then I heard of Taim, and I was off to Saldaea as fast I could ride. There's nothing for a bit of excitement like a man who can channel." Abruptly her voice hardened, and her gaze. "Were either of you involved in that... vileness ... right after the Aiel War?"**
She says she was off to Saldaea right away after Logain, and it is implied that she saw Taim (she most likely did), but since she wouldn't escort Logain to the Tower, she most likely helped capture him, then left.
Few things on the capturing of Taim though, that spark my interest:
** TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Message
"You had better hope he has," Elayne said coldly. "If he hasn't, then nine may be eight too many." Thirteen was the dangerous number. Rand was strong, perhaps as strong as any man since the Breaking, but thirteen Aes Sedai linked could overwhelm him, shield him from saidin, and take him prisoner. Thirteen was the number assigned when a man was gentled, though Nynaeve had begun to think the assignment more custom than requirement. Aes Sedai did a good many things because they always had.**
13 is the number of Aes Sedai usually sent after a male wilder; all and all general fact.
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 52 - Weaves of the Power
Egwene waited patiently while Logain drank some more water. His tent was not so spacious as his quarters had been in Salidar, but it was still larger than most in the camp. There had to be room for the six sisters sitting on stools, maintaining the shield on him. Egwene's suggestion that it be tied off had been met with close to shock and not far from scorn; no one was willing to countenance it, particularly now, so soon after she had raised four women Aes Sedai without testing or Oath Rod, and perhaps not ever. Siuan had said they would not. Custom said six, though if he was as much reduced as Siuan and Leane, any three sisters in the camp could surely have held him, and custom said the shield on a man must be maintained, not tied. A single lamp gave a fitful illumination. She and Logain sat on blankets laid for rugs.**
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 52 - Weaves of the Power
Logain jerked up onto his knees, snarling, and she embraced saidar and had him wrapped securely in flows of Air in the space of a heartbeat. The sisters shielding him had all their strength directed into that—another custom; you must use every bit of your strength to shield a man—but several could split their weaves, and one might have diverted part to him if they thought he might harm her. She did not want to risk him being injured.**
1. Once captured, it is custom to have six Aes Sedai constantly maintaining the shield. Nothing else. They put all their strength into maintaining the shield.
2. They never tie off the shield. Another custom.
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 53 - The Feast of Lights
Soft, Lews Therin said, panting. Because they are there. Sustaining the buffer. Hard when they knot. Nothing to be done when they are soft, but I can unravel the web if they knot it. With time. He paused so long Rand thought he was gone again, then he whispered, Are you real? And then he really was gone.**
3. It is impossible to break a shield while it is being maintained. The only way to break through, is for the shield to be knotted, tied off, then broken.
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 55 - Dumai's Wells
Doubled painfully inside the chest, panting, Rand fumbled at the shield between him and the Source. Moaning floated across the Void, grim fury and burning fear slid along the edge of it; he was no longer altogether certain which was his and which Lews Therin's. Suddenly his breath froze. Six points, but one was hard now. Not soft; hard. And then a second. A third. Rasping laughter filled his ears; that was his, he realized after a moment. A fourth knot became hard. He waited, trying to stifle what sounded uncomfortably like deranged giggling. The last two points remained soft. Those muffled cackles died.
Quickly, almost frantically, he attacked the remaining knots in turn. A second went; the shield thinned. It was quicker now, quicker with each, as if he were learning the path through, though it was different each time. The third knot gone. And a third soft point appeared; maybe the Aes Sedai did not know what he was doing, but they would not simply sit while the shield grew less and less. Truly frantic, Rand hurled himself at the fourth knot. He had to unravel it before a fourth sister came into the shield; four might be able to hold it whatever he did. Almost weeping, he struggled through the complex windings, slipping between nothingness. Frenziedly, he flexed, bursting the knot. The shield remained, but held by only three now. If he could only move fast enough.**
The only time Aes Sedai tie off shields on male channelers, that we know of, is in the middle of a battle.
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 55 - Dumai's Wells
When he reached for saidin, the invisible barrier was still there, but it no longer seemed stone or brick. It gave as he pressed, bending under his pressure, bending, bending. Suddenly it tore apart before him like rotted cloth. The Power filled him, and as it did, he seized at those three soft points, crushing them ruthlessly in fists of Spirit. Aside from that, he still could only channel where he could see, and all he could see, dimly, was the inside of the chest, what he could glimpse of it with his head forced between his knees. Before he even finished with the fists of Spirit, he channeled Air. The chest exploded away from him with a loud boom.**
You have to be quite strong to break through the shield, expecially a link between three Aes Sedai maintaining it.
Since Taim is about as strong as Rand, a little weaker, and Logain is roughly at the same status, we have to assume that the Aes Sedai who maintained the shield on Taim, knew his strength, and put six of them on it. Since Cadsuane implies quite strongly that she did not escort Taim, she wouldn't, at least we would be led to believe, leave if there was a possible flaw.
But, once again, the problems of the six Aes Sedai pop up. Why aren't they mentioned?! There are too many problems that spark up if six Aes Sedai were there.
Since no big battle was mentioned around Taim's escape, there would be no need to tie off the shield around him. So it would be unescapeable if there were six Aes Sedai there.
But we know Taim escaped, and only two Aes Sedai deaths mentioned.
So possibilities come into play.
1. There was a break in custom, and there were only two Aes Sedai that shielded Taim. Cadsuane approved.
2. There were six Aes Sedai, and only the two deaths were mentioned. The other four were conviently forgotten.
Since the second one sounds a lot more unlikely then the first, even though the first sounds quite unlikely itself, let's see what happens in that possibility.
1. A battle occured when Taim escaped. The Aes Sedai knotted their shield, Taim recognized what they did, and knew how to break the shield. He then killed the two Aes Sedai upon escaping.
2. The Aes Sedai were Black Ajah, they released Taim, and he killed them, or they faked their own death, or some other possibility happened that allowed them to disappear alive or dead.
3. The Aes Sedai were killed outright by the Black Ajah. Taim was freed.
Note: Questions abound here though. The Black Ajah could be working on their plan to use Taim, and altered it a bit. But then, how did they find him? Who ordered them?
4. The Aes Sedai were killed by a Forsaken. Taim was freed in lieu of one of their plots.
Most possibilities boil down to Taim only being able to get free, if he was able to overpower the Aes Sedai, or if he had help.
a dragonburned fool: 2004-06-09
Cadsuane participated in chasing Taim, but I bet she was not in his escort. In aCoS, ch.19, where is the info about her taking part in chasing and capturing both Logain and Taim, it is said, that after capturing Logain, she was totally non-interested in escorting him to Tar Valon, so she leaved and engaged herself in chasing Taim. As she makes only what she thinks to deserve her attention, I bet she leaved Taim exactly after his capture by AS.
However Cadsuane's participation is IMO an indirect evidence that there were more then 2 AS in Taim's escort. 2 AS would mean that there is lack of AS around Taim, that it is too risky to escort him, so Cadsuane wouldn't leave such a task as uninteresting. Cadsuane's participation means that Taim's escort was all right, i.e. full escort with enough sisters.
Elder Haman: 2004-06-09
Some Points:
1: It is stated in the book that 13 of the weakest sisters make a circle powerful enough to shield any man- and six of the weakest can maintain a shield. However, if she were powerful enough, one Aes Sedai could shield a man by herself.
2: How do you deal with multipule Aes Sedai quietly? One word: Forkroot. I guess the other two Aes Sedai didn't drink thier tea. Sounds like Black Ajah work to me- why didn't Suian get Moiriane's warning about that plot?
charliec: 2004-06-11
**1. There was a break in custom, and there were only two Aes Sedai that shielded Taim. Cadsuane approved.
2. There were six Aes Sedai, and only the two deaths were mentioned. The other four were conviently forgotten.
Since the second one sounds a lot more unlikely then the first, even though the first sounds quite unlikely itself, let's see what happens in that possibility. **
Here's where we differ then... IIRC the information arrived as a brief interjection into another topic, and we have no idea how thouroughly it was dealt with off-screen, I strongly disagree that the first is more likely than the second.
Callandor: 2004-06-11
**2: How do you deal with multipule Aes Sedai quietly? One word: Forkroot. I guess the other two Aes Sedai didn't drink thier tea. Sounds like Black Ajah work to me- why didn't Suian get Moiriane's warning about that plot?**
No one knew of Forkroot's existence till TFOH. Taim escaped in TSR, in the village of Denhuir east of the Black Hills. Since the very first mention of forkroot is in TFOH, it seems quite unlikely, if not downright impossible, for that to be the answer.
Also, if it was the way Taim escaped, who put it in there? Taim surely couldn't have, unless you think he knew of it and the Aes Sedai made him into a servant.
And about the single sister capturing a male channeler, yes, it does happen. But Rand, Taim, and Logain are so much more powerful then the average run of the mill Aes Sedai, it wouldn't be. Rand was able to sever three linked Aes Sedai, by himself. He could handle Elayne and Egwene like kittens, by himself. One single Aes Sedai could've shielded Taim by surprise, but he could've broken through the shield by pure strength.
Anubis: 2004-06-12
thank you callandor, as always your quotes are most helpfull. i tend to remember most of it but the quote solidifies it nicely.
so odds are taim was shielded by 6 aes sedai. thing is it is much easier to maintain a shield then it is to put one on a person. there was a ebu dar wise person who was incredibly skilled at shielding, held nynaeve even though she shouldnt have, so there is a talent involved. though i doubt any aes sedai cultivate it. i still favor the Black Ajah involvment. cadsuane did her bit and went home, then the blacks moved in (i bet the blacks fear cadsuane too much to try anything with her around)
Callandor: 2004-06-12
**Here's where we differ then... IIRC the information arrived as a brief interjection into another topic, and we have no idea how thouroughly it was dealt with off-screen, I strongly disagree that the first is more likely than the second.**
Was it on screen? Was it mentioned ever again? Did we meet these other Aes Sedai?
Answer to all: no.
If we have no mention of it, no on screen time of it, nor any other possible means of saying "This could've happened" with any proof, then it can't be taken as a valid objection.
You can say Rand went and shagged 17 girls in one night before leaving with Moiraine. It could've happened of screen. But come on, if it did, it would've been mentioned.
charliec: 2004-06-13
**If we have no mention of it, no on screen time of it, nor any other possible means of saying "This could've happened" with any proof, then it can't be taken as a valid objection.
You can say Rand went and shagged 17 girls in one night before leaving with Moiraine. It could've happened of screen. But come on, if it did, it would've been mentioned.**
That's the point Callandor, for Rand to have gone a-bonking would have been unlike him, so we assume he didn't, even though we're not told... for just 2 Aes Sedai to be left bringing Taim in would seem unlike Aes Sedai tradition, so I feel it makes more sense to assume that's not what happened, unless told otherwise.
meh, it's a minor point anyway.
Callandor: 2004-06-13
**That's the point Callandor, for Rand to have gone a-bonking would have been unlike him, so we assume he didn't, even though we're not told... for just 2 Aes Sedai to be left bringing Taim in would seem unlike Aes Sedai tradition, so I feel it makes more sense to assume that's not what happened, unless told otherwise.**
Whether it is unlikely or not, it's what is told, and what we have to work with. We have only two Aes Sedai mentioned around Taim's Escape: the two that died. There is no other mention of any other Aes Sedai around there being killed, returning, missing, or already back.
In any other case for there to be six Aes Sedai, they would've been mentioned in one of those contexts; they're not.
Only thing that really makes sense, evne though it seems quite stupid for them, is for there to be only two Aes Sedai there.
wattj69: 2004-06-20
I don't think it ever specifically mentions which direction the sun rises from, but we still assume it. two sisters just doesn't work, RJ is very good with all the details, but if he didn't make a specific mention of other sister coming back,we can assume they were probably still there. Taim is about equal with Logain in power, and Logain nearly broke a shield of six. if it was only 2, Taim would've broken out and butchered them as soon as he was caught.
Callandor: 2004-06-21
**I don't think it ever specifically mentions which direction the sun rises from, but we still assume it.**
Nice analogy, but it doesn't work. The sun has been mentioned quite a few times rising in the East, through direct references and contrary ones ("Or the sun would set in the West!").
** two sisters just doesn't work, RJ is very good with all the details, but if he didn't make a specific mention of other sister coming back,we can assume they were probably still there.**
No, we really can't.
It doesn't work. Correct. Which is why it is so strange. But, those are the facts we have to go on.
**Taim is about equal with Logain in power, and Logain nearly broke a shield of six. if it was only 2, Taim would've broken out and butchered them as soon as he was caught.**
Nothing new here.
wattj69: 2004-06-22
ok, I don't wanna make this into a battle, but you seem to be very good at attacking theories and not so good at creating them. you use absence of information to make your points, but so far that's all you have supporting you, you've discredited what I say just by saying no specific mention was made, but that's ALL you have supporting you. what direct evidence was there that there were only two sisters? how could two sisters have even caught him in the first place? if you can tell me how that would have been near enough to get him into captivity in the first place, I'll withdraw my objections. but until that point, I have to keep asking you to back up your point a little. sorry if this is too close to an attack, but I just need some proof from the other direction before you attack my possibility.
Callandor: 2004-06-22
**you use absence of information to make your points, but so far that's all you have supporting you, you've discredited what I say just by saying no specific mention was made, but that's ALL you have supporting you. what direct evidence was there that there were only two sisters?**
We have one reference to the number of sisters sent after Taim: that number is the 2 Aes Sedai that died.
If there were more Aes Sedai, since the Tower knows that two were killed, then they should know if any others were alive in their party, on their way to the Tower, or if they were dead themselves.
They make no reference to the other sisters at all. We have no basis for saying there must be more then two, even with Aes Sedai customs being sending six, because the other four are not mentioned at all. Not one reference.
**how could two sisters have even caught him in the first place? if you can tell me how that would have been near enough to get him into captivity in the first place, I'll withdraw my objections.**
Have you read the books? Taim was knocked from his horse and knocked unconcious in battle when Rand proclaimed himself the Dragon Reborn. He was captured then.
TITLE: The Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 12 - The Amyrlin Seat
"Yes. Mazrim Taim is in the hands of out sisters in Saldaea, and the poor fellow in Haddon Mirk, the Light have pity on his soul, was taken by the Tairens and excuted on the spot. No one even seems to know what his name was. Both were taken on the same day and, according to rumor, under the same circumstances. They were in battle, and winning, when suddenly a great light flashed in the sky, and a vision appeared, just for an instant. There are a dozen differet versions of what it was, but in both cases the result was exactly the same. The false Dragon's horse reared up and threw him. He was knocked unconscious, and his followers cried out that he was dead, and fled the field, and he was taken. Some of my reports speak of visions in the sky at Falme. I'll wager a gold makr toa week-old delta perch that was the instant Rand al'Thor proclaimed himself."**
Anubis: 2004-06-23
"How?" "This only says he was taken away by stealth in the night, Mother. Two sisters are dead."
alrite... its time to play lets look at the context! :D
ahem. the aes sedai are facing a crisis. this crisis is that there are not alot of them. and it is getting worse. another crisis is that tarmon gaiden is approaching and aes sedai are fairly usefull for the killing of large scary monsters. In the back... or even in the front of her mind, every sister is worried about the dwindeling numbers. Therefore it becomes very important and noteworthy that two sisters are dead.
now the other part. taken away by stealth in the night. stealth typically means minimal killing. so maybe forkroot and then two didnt drink their tea fast enough or some other similar means. it seems that the priority would be get the hell out of there fast, not kill all the sisters.
so there you have it. the quote does NOT mean that there were only two sisters on gaurd. and also wouldnt "the whole team was killed" or somthing be better wording if thats what happend? and how is killing every gaurd a stealthy escape? to me that seems more like excessive force...
wattj69: 2004-06-23
ah...:) fairly beaten. I still believe there were more than 2 sisters, but point to you for that one, and my apologies.
Callandor: 2004-06-23
**now the other part. taken away by stealth in the night. stealth typically means minimal killing. so maybe forkroot and then two didnt drink their tea fast enough or some other similar means. it seems that the priority would be get the hell out of there fast, not kill all the sisters.**
Given that somone replied the note, the people would've had some knowledge of the events; they did remark upon the two deaths. Why not a potion that made sisters unable to channel? They would know that right away.
Also, we know that no one was knowledgable about forkroot before Ronde Macura. So how would anyone else impliment it, especailly since we were first told of it in the area past Tarabon, and into Amadaica. A long ways away from Saldaea or the Black Hills.
**so there you have it. the quote does NOT mean that there were only two sisters on gaurd. and also wouldnt "the whole team was killed" or somthing be better wording if thats what happend? and how is killing every gaurd a stealthy escape? to me that seems more like excessive force...**
That's exactly the point. Why weren't more of the Aes Sedai remarked upon? There would've been some reference of Aes Sedai coming back, some report of what happened. We have nothing, but that note.
Callandor: 2004-06-23
Frankly, I would prefer 6 Aes Sedai that captured Taim. I would LOVE that, because it means, he needed help to get out. It leaves no doubt whatsoever that Taim did it alone. It had to be outside help that rescued him.
However, with the information so far, it seems only two Aes Sedai (which still, I freely admit, MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL!!!! :x).
Anubis: 2004-06-24
fairly beaten? not by a long shot!!
imagine you are an aes sedai in charge of gurading taim. you are in charge of the escort. somthing happens. you dont know what but you know the result. 2 sisters dead, taim is gone, the rest are confused/dazed/drugged/unconscious who knows, its not important.
two things need to happen in your mind. the amryllin needs to be informed, and taim needs to be found. you pen a quick hasty reply, the amryllin will understand considering events that there is no time for elaboation. sketch the important things, taim gone, stealth, sisters dead, and get to the search.
Nevyn: 2004-06-24
A small point here, no one seems to have mentioned the True Power, as a possible agent of release. Meaning that it doesn't necessarily have to be a male channeler who rescued him.
Also there are many plausible scenarios involving Taim shielded by six, and only two being killed; the Aes Sedai were caught unawares and some were knocked unconscious before they could respond, this allowed Mazrim Taim to break their shield, and if the rescuer could Travel, the rescue is already accomplished, if not, then a battle would probably be necessary as a diversion; it doesn't seem necessary for any of the A.S. holding Taim to be Black, possible of course, maybe even likely, but by no means necessary.
charliec: 2004-06-24
**We have one reference to the number of sisters sent after Taim: that number is the 2 Aes Sedai that died.**
So yes we know two sisters died, so there must have been at least 2 AS, but we cannot surmise that they were the only Aes Sedai.
If you want to know two numbers, A and B, you need to know two bits of information, such as the size of one and it's relation to the other. If you only have one piece of information you cannot know them both.
We know the relation- after the attack there were 2 less Aes Sedai- so all we can conclude is that the initial number was 2 or more. We cannot take the lack of further commetns to prove that there were no others.
For all we know the surviving number was mentioned off screen (although I know Callandor dislikes this idea)
Alternatively, the original number was already known, and so once the number of dead had been said there was no need to say more. It would have been clumsy and ineloquent (and a little rude) to say that 'Two are dead, which leaves eight alive' to someone who already knew that there were 10 to start with.
We should not assume Taim was held by just two Aes Sedai, especially where it conflicts with common sense.
silverwolf: 2004-06-28
If there were only 2 sisters guiding Taim and someone powerful enough to kill both of them arrived and did so to free Taim, why would they not kill everyone else in the group to prevent the White Tower from learning of it as quickly? Since this did not happen and we did not read the note word for word (its contents were summarized), we can assume that the killer left quickly because there were more Aes Sedai left to threaten him/her/it. Nothing else makes any sense.
Callandor: 2004-06-29
**2 sisters dead, taim is gone, the rest are confused/dazed/drugged/unconscious who knows, its not important.**
Sisters being drugged by betrayal would be quite important.
Also, a link is maintained even in sleep. Drugging is out. Forkroot was still unknown.
**So yes we know two sisters died, so there must have been at least 2 AS, but we cannot surmise that they were the only Aes Sedai.**
We have to. There isn't any other information.
**For all we know the surviving number was mentioned off screen (although I know Callandor dislikes this idea)**
Again, why wouldn't it be mentioned before, when was it mentioned off screen, and why aren't there any other references to the other sisters?
**Alternatively, the original number was already known, and so once the number of dead had been said there was no need to say more. It would have been clumsy and ineloquent (and a little rude) to say that 'Two are dead, which leaves eight alive' to someone who already knew that there were 10 to start with.**
So why doesn't Siuan say, "Well, the other eight can just capture him again." Why not make reference to the other surviving Aes Sedai?
**We should not assume Taim was held by just two Aes Sedai, especially where it conflicts with common sense.**
Aes Sedai swearing to a male channeler goes against common sense too, but it happened.
Nevyn: 2004-06-29
Playing devil's advocate here, two A.S. could hold Taim prisoner if they kept him unconscious; he was captured after being knocked unconscious, if they kept him in that state(as they probably would/should if they were alone) they could theoretically bring him to the tower without a problem.
Note, I don't really believe the above at all, I think it much more likely that it was simply that we were getting the "headlines". Remember Moiraine's note to Suian with respect to Rand's taking of the stone, it went something like; "The sling has been used. The shepherd holds the sword". Fairly succinct no?
: 2004-07-06
You guys sometimes seems to be more interested in proving eachother wrong than seeing the most obvious solution. ;)
Anyways, we know Siun was the head of the spynetwork, as such she can count things out pretty good and made a rumour among Aes Sedai as being sharp. To someone like that you don't send a messege spelling out every little detail about how many you are, how many are left, how good the soup was and other things she is supposed to know anyways.
The other factor to consider is how close to the tower they were. I honestly don't remember but I got the feeling they weren't that far away, maybe less than a week away. If so you wouldn't all the jiucy details in either, you'd send a reliable messenger with the info and prolly request backup aswell with this messenger to be able to catch someone like this again.
This is you don't send jiucy details in messeges like this, so if there was suspicion of BA you wouldn't write it, you'd send that with the messenger aswell.
So, the letter that is said says the only thing that it can say by logic now. Two sisters dead and Taim lost in a stealthy operation at night.
Now, as for the number, we can certify that it's atleast 3, since one send the messege. So all there goes half a bunch of the options above, although the context of them still remain.
We also know for sure that Cadsuane was involved with the capture. And I very much doubt she'd leave 3 Aes Sedai to escort someone as strong as Taim to Tar Valon, she's the oldest and most competent Aes Sedai of them all when it comes to male channelers, to do such a mistake would only work if you think she's black aswell.
So, from all information we got we can assume there is a normal escort of Taim. That is 13 sisters with 6 maintaining the shield at all time.
Now, who could have rescued him? Well, a number of posabilities have been mentioned already, but this is what I always felt is most likely.
(Your fav forsaken) walks in at night, locate the guarding Aes Sedai. Knocks them uncouncious (damned spelling) in a fast order. The deaths? case 1. Two Aes Sedai are in the room with Taim guarding him more closely and become vitnesses and had to be terminated. case 2. Two Aes Sedai stumble upon said forsaken or Taim at anytime during the mission.
It doesn't have to be more mysterious than that and with the tower coup closely following this event there is really no way to know what followup that happened and who got any further messeges. Maybe Alvarin got the next messege or the messenger with more details and conviniently forgot to mention it in the chaos the followed the coup?
Illuminati
brother of Battles: 2004-07-07
Is Everyone forgetting that Taim is a Darkfriend? Also, it seems to me that everyone is forgetting yet another possibility. Gray Men. In tDR, when they are in the village, and Parrin smells them, after he and Lan kills them, Moiraine is shocked that Parrin noticed them and tells him that the AS cannot detect the Soulless. It is possible that 6 soulless came to free Taim, but only 2 soulless actually killed thier AS targets. The other 4 could have been saved through healing. And there was most deffinetly 6 AS on Taim to maintain his shield. They would not break custom for no uncalled reason and there is no reason that we know of that would have caused us to believe otherwise.
Callandor: 2004-07-07
**The other factor to consider is how close to the tower they were. I honestly don't remember but I got the feeling they weren't that far away, maybe less than a week away. If so you wouldn't all the jiucy details in either, you'd send a reliable messenger with the info and prolly request backup aswell with this messenger to be able to catch someone like this again.**
The village of Denhuir on the Maradon Road east of the Black Hills above the headwaters of the River Antaeo and River Luan.
**Now, as for the number, we can certify that it's atleast 3, since one send the messege. So all there goes half a bunch of the options above, although the context of them still remain.**
So only Aes Sedai can send messages?
**So, from all information we got we can assume there is a normal escort of Taim. That is 13 sisters with 6 maintaining the shield at all time.**
I'm sorry, but this is just totally ignoring evidence. A dozen Aes Sedai were sent to retake Taim, along with 1000 soldiers. So, the White Tower sends another 12, to go join the remaining 11, for a total of 23, to take one man?
Why not send another 2 (logical choice; two down, two to replace), 3, or 4, rather then, at that time, an army after him?
Simple. All the Aes Sedai, the two, were dead.
**Is Everyone forgetting that Taim is a Darkfriend?**
1. Not confirmed yet (notice the YET!!!)
2. I would love for their to be 13 Aes Sedai, or at least 6, specifically because it means Taim needed help to escape. Implying - Dark help.
Sadly, evidence is quite against that. (There is a lot more Taim evidence of being a Darkfriend though.)
**They would not break custom for no uncalled reason and there is no reason that we know of that would have caused us to believe otherwise.**
No reason... except for their only, only, being two Aes Sedai mentioned: the two that died.
Davian93: 2004-07-08
****Is Everyone forgetting that Taim is a Darkfriend? Also, it seems to me that everyone is forgetting yet another possibility.****
Well, technically, we dont know for sure that Taim is a darkfriend. There is plenty of evidence that points to that being true, but we dont know for sure yet. Even if he is a darkfriend now, that doesnt mean he was one at the moment of his capture. Taim need not be a darkfriend for the Black Ajah to want to capture him. Loosing a false dragon on the world to create chaos is plenty good reason to release him.
wattj69: 2004-07-08
wow, you know, you really have to wonder if RJ even thought of, or cared about, this in any way. :) I mean, with someone with his literary depth, you never assume something is unimportant, but I think if he read this thread, he's just say, "uh, I just wanted to move the plot along, didn't have time to make the letter longer". I realize the desire to prove one's point, I realize also that I was active in the beginning of this argument, but really, I don't think the point will be proven one way or another throughout the rest of the series. I doubt any mention will be made of it at all.
Anubis: 2004-07-08
Callandor, maybe one of the two dead ones was the one holding the link. That fits. I would imagine that death severs the link.... or someone would get the brilliant idea of link to 12 other sisters and then immediatly kill them to have darn near ultimate power.
Callandor: 2004-07-09
Found something interesting.
**TITLE: Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: Prologue
Taim shook his head contemptuously, a half-smile flickering across his lips. "Use your eyes." His voice was quiet, but hard and sneering. *"There are two Aes Sedai here. Are you afraid of two Aes Sedai?* Besides, you don't want to frighten the future Queen of Andor." His companions relaxed visibly, then began trying to emulate the unthinking dominance of his stance.**
**TITLE: Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: Prologue
"Stay," Elayne told her coolly. Calmly. "Vermin can be dealt with in due time." *Two Aes Sedai. He did not realize Renaile could channel and he had emphasized two. Would just three women give some advantage? Or did it take more? Plainly the Asha'man knew of some advantage to women in numbers less than a circle of thirteen.* Walk in on her without so much as a by-your-leave, would they? "You can show these goodmen out when I'm done with them." Taim's companions scowled at being called "goodmen," but the man himself merely flashed another of those almost-smiles. He was quick enough to know she had been thinking of him when she spoke of vermin. Light! Maybe Rand had needed this man once, but why would he keep him now, and in a position of such authority? Well, his authority counted for nothing here.**
It is very interesting to me that Taim specifically sees no threat at all with two Aes Sedai (yes, there were three with Renaile in the link with Elayne and Merilille, but Taim did not concider Renaile a channeler).
Here is what is interesting. Linked Aes Sedai are more powerful then an Aes Sedai by themself. That's common knowledge, especailly the deadly 13. But the Asha'man are relaxed by the fact that there are only two Aes Sedai present.
Why?
1. You could call it up to arrogance, god knows the Asha'man have that. But that is a weak idea to me.
2. Someone had first hand knowledge of facing linked Aes Sedai, and lived.
Now, this meeting with Elayne takes place after the attack on the Black Tower by Toveine and her party. However, we have no example of Aes Sedai linking together in that attack. As far as we know, and it would seem to be quite a solid fact, that all the Aes Sedai were shielded personally by an Asha'man until their capture.
So what other time did Asha'man come into contact with Aes Sedai? Dumai's Wells. No Aes Sedai links were established that we know of, due to it being, duh, a battle and absolute chaos.
So what else? No other Asha'man that we know of have come into contact with more then one Aes Sedai (most haven't before the attack by Toveine). So what is left? Rand? He never gave this kind of information to Taim at all. His escape from Dumai's Wells does nothing to knowing that two Aes Sedai aren't much of a worry; no one but Rand and the other Aes Sedai really know the specifics of his escape.
Logain? He was "willingly" let go by Egwene (in reality, she drugged all the Aes Sedai and guards so he could escape), and until then he was shielded by six Aes Sedai the entire time.
What is left? One possibility. Mazrim Taim himself is the source of the information. And two Aes Sedai is the exact number of Aes Sedai remarked as being killed at the hands of his escape.
Quite interesting.
Callandor: 2004-07-10
Another interesting thing:
**TITLE: Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 3 - Pale Shadows
Asmodean was not finished. *"If two women link, they do not double their strength-linking is not as simple as adding together the power of each-but if they are strong enough, they can match a man.* And when they take the circle to thirteen, then you must be wary. Thirteen women who can barely channel could overpower most men, linked. The thirteen weakest women in the Tower could overpower you or any man, and barely breathe hard. I came across a saying in Arad Doman. 'The more women there are about, the softer a wise man steps.' It would not be bad to remember it."**
Not the greatest example of relative strengths. Falls down on the facts that Taim is a little bit weaker then Rand, and Rand could handle Egwene and Elayne like kittens (however, they weren't linked).
Also:
**TITLE: Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 23 - Next Door to a Weaver
Appalled astonishment became fiery outrage as Nynaeve realized that Berowin held her shield. Most Aes Sedai she had met stood above Berowin; nearly all. Gathering herself, she strained to reach the Source, expecting the weaves to shatter. She would at least show these women she would not be.... The weaves ... stretched. The round Cairhienin woman smiled, and Nynaeve's face darkened. The shield stretched further, further, bulging like a ball. It would not break. That was impossible. *Anyone could block her from the Source if they caught her by surprise, of course, and someone weaker could hold the shield once woven, but not this much weaker.* And a shield did not bend that far without breaking. It was impossible!**
Taim being unconcious, wouldn't be able to stop the shield, and if the two Aes Sedai linked were weaker, they could hold it on him.
Also:
**TITLE: Path of Daggers
CHAPTER: 4 - A Quiet Place
The white-haired sisters were linked, the glow of saidar somehow encompassing them both without including Ispan. *There was no way to tell which led the small circle and held the shield on the Darkfriend, but not even one of the Forsaken could have broken it.* They stopped to speak to a stout woman in plain brown wool, who gaped at the leather sack covering Ispan's head but still curtsied and pointed toward one of the white-plastered buildings. Elayne exchanged angry glances with Aviendha. Well, hers was angry, anyway. Sometimes Aviendha gave away no more than a stone. Handing their horses over to two of the palace stablemen, they hurried after the three. Some of the women who were not of the Kin tried to question them about what was happening, a few in rather overbearing fashion, but Elayne gave them short shrift, leaving behind a wake of indignant sniffs and snorts. Oh, what she would not give to have the ageless face already! That tweaked a thread in the back of her thoughts, but it vanished as soon as she tried to examine it.**
This is Adeleas and Vandene holding Ispan shielded, and Elayne is positive even one of the Forsaken couldn't break through it.
Finally, as a last example of two-women-links-strength:
**TITLE: Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 38 - Six Stories
"Fight," Nynaeve snapped at them. She turned her head just a fraction, so she could see them as well as Falion and Ispan. *"I cannot do it alone; they're linked.* If you don't fight them, they will kill you. You know about them, now!" The Wise Women gaped at her as though she had suggested spitting in the Queen's face. In the midst of shouts and grants, Ispan laughed melodiously. In the midst of shouts and grants, a shrill scream echoed down the stairs.**
Falion and Ispan, Aes Sedai of what I only know of moderate strength (they could be more then average, but I'm not sure if they are; if anybody does, please quote it), yet when linked they can match Nynaeve who is of Forsaken strength.
So, I don't see two Aes Sedai taking and keeping Taim at all beyond possibility.
Anubis: 2004-07-10
its a possibility sure. its also BEGGING for trouble. and like the guy said, there were at least three.
Brendan Reborn: 2004-07-10
This sounds like a good question of the week at TOR to me. Maybe someone should submit it if they do another round. :/
Callandor: 2004-07-10
**its a possibility sure. its also BEGGING for trouble. and like the guy said, there were at least three.**
Yes, great, Cadsuane was there till Taim was captured. She left.
And it doesn't take an Aes Sedai to send a message.
charliec: 2004-07-11
Good points Callandor, I've just read that bit about Vandene and Adeleas, I should have noticed it... yes this does make it more possible, but still pretty unlikely IMO.
Illuminati: 2004-07-12
** **its a possibility sure. its also BEGGING for trouble. and like the guy said, there were at least three.**
Yes, great, Cadsuane was there till Taim was captured. She left.
And it doesn't take an Aes Sedai to send a message.**
Sure, but the messege would had been different then, something like this: "All sisters dead" or "Both sisters dead". Naming a number indicates there are more than the number. Hence, atleast 3 and it doesn't matter at all if she wrote the messege but I'd be willing to bet on it. Most likely if someone else than a sister wrote the letter it would say Aes Sedai instead of sisters since that's generally what the rest of the world call sisters.
Secondly, your proofs work against eachother.
first:
If there were only 2 sisters i means that Taim killed 11. If so he would hardly be afraid of 2 sisters (Elayne and other) now would he? The only reason he got captured the first time was because of Cadsuane and nothing else, this we do know for fact from her. So 2 sisters would hardly scare him any place for any reason.
Now, I'm pretty sure the books said he defeated atleast 6 sisters before he was captured. I can't remember if it said he killed them or they managed to get away with just lost pride, but in either case 2 sisters don't scare him.
secondly:
If he killed 11 sisters, or even just defeated 6, what would make Cadsuane drop all the brains we have seen her possess and just send 2 sisters with him to Tar Valon? It's like asking to set him free, inviting him to escape. Why would the sisters be that stupid? Were they all black? You havn't even begun to touch this on in your line of thinking and it makes absolutly no sence to me.
Even if there were just 2 sisters and Cadusane left when they managed to capture him they would request backup from the tower before trying to move him somewhere, and above all, in all cases Cadsuane would had remained until backup arrived. She makes that pretty clear in he rose thoughts although she doesn't like to go to the tower anymore.
Now, seriously, Callandor, I normally like your ideas and think you're convincing, but in this case I can't help to think that you're just stubbornly holding on to this idea dispite it's unlikeliness. We all know that unless Jordan says one way or another we will never know, so what we do in these discussions is trying to find the most likely scenario, and sometimes spice them up with a different twist. This 2 sisters only one is not holding however.
The most likely scenario is that they had their 13, and someone helped Taim to escape and killed two eye vitnesses on its/his/her way out.
If you want a "Taim none-darkfriend" scenario, how about this instead? Atleast 2 BAs nestled themselves into the camp and cooperated, gaining controll over the link then disabling the rest that held the link. Taim noticing the weakness breaks free and kills the two in fury of the capture (much like Rands breakout). Realizing quickly where he is and the danger of the situation he panics and opens a gateway out the camp.
Now that would leave a number of other question but atleast you get a more plausable Taim is not a darkfriend scenario than the "2 sisters only guarding him" one.
This has not gotten us nowhere near the origional and interesting question however... who freed him and why?
Anubis: 2004-07-12
my answer:
who freed him? The shadow.
Why? Why not? Hes evil and powerfull, he will more then likely be usefull later, and this is coming to pass as the black tower proves.
Callandor: 2004-07-13
**Sure, but the messege would had been different then, something like this: "All sisters dead" or "Both sisters dead". Naming a number indicates there are more than the number. Hence, atleast 3 and it doesn't matter at all if she wrote the messege but I'd be willing to bet on it. Most likely if someone else than a sister wrote the letter it would say Aes Sedai instead of sisters since that's generally what the rest of the world call sisters.**
Really. So servants of the Tower, or Tower Guards, would not refer to them as sisters? They know what they are and belong to the same body.
**If there were only 2 sisters i means that Taim killed 11. If so he would hardly be afraid of 2 sisters (Elayne and other) now would he? The only reason he got captured the first time was because of Cadsuane and nothing else, this we do know for fact from her. So 2 sisters would hardly scare him any place for any reason.**
Uhh... where the heck are you getting this? When did I say there were 13 Aes Sedai after Taim? I said there were ONLY two.
**Now, I'm pretty sure the books said he defeated atleast 6 sisters before he was captured. I can't remember if it said he killed them or they managed to get away with just lost pride, but in either case 2 sisters don't scare him.**
Quote it.
**If he killed 11 sisters, or even just defeated 6, what would make Cadsuane drop all the brains we have seen her possess and just send 2 sisters with him to Tar Valon? It's like asking to set him free, inviting him to escape. Why would the sisters be that stupid? Were they all black? You havn't even begun to touch this on in your line of thinking and it makes absolutly no sence to me.**
Once again, I have never said that Taim killed 11 Aes Sedai, or defeated six; read what I have said and don't twist my words.
**Even if there were just 2 sisters and Cadusane left when they managed to capture him they would request backup from the tower before trying to move him somewhere, and above all, in all cases Cadsuane would had remained until backup arrived. She makes that pretty clear in he rose thoughts although she doesn't like to go to the tower anymore.**
Why? If they can shield him, what's the danger?
**The most likely scenario is that they had their 13, and someone helped Taim to escape and killed two eye vitnesses on its/his/her way out.**
Is everyone ignoring what I have been saying?
THERE--ARE--NO--OTHER--MENTION--OF--THESE--THIRTEEN--AES SEDAI!
Saying that, "Oh, they forgot in all the trouble." goes against everything else we know of Aes Sedai.
1. If only two were killed, 11 were alive. Why isn't there a single word about them?
2. If 11 Aes Sedai are alive, why would Siuan send an additional 12 Aes Sedai after Taim? 23 Aes Sedai, is quite overkill.
3. If all 13 Aes Sedai were killed, why were only two mentioned?
4. If two Aes Sedai were killed, why haven't the other 11 Aes Sedai returned to the Tower?
5. If the 11 Aes Sedai returned to the Tower, why the heck haven't we heard more information about this great big event of Taim's escape?
You say what I suppose doesn't make any sense?!
I totally agree with your objections. Having two Aes Sedai shield Taim the entire time back to Tar Valon, even though they knew his strength (roughly), doesn't make a lick of sense. But guess what, it's all we have to go on.
1. We have word of only two Aes Sedai dying.
2. We know that when a male channeler is captured, Aes Sedai link to keep him shielded.
3. We know two Aes Sedai linked together, even average strength Aes Sedai, provide enough strength to hold a Forsaken level channeler.
4. We know that a weaker person can maintain a shield on a stronger one.
If two Aes Sedai linked match even slightly less then Taim's power, they could shield him. We only know of two Aes Sedai, whatever your guesses that there must be another to send the note.
**This has not gotten us nowhere near the origional and interesting question however... who freed him and why?**
Most likely: the Dark did for reasons unknown. Whether Forsaken or Black Ajah, take a guess, flip a coin, or point blindfolded at it, it's supposition either way.
Ashaman: 2008-02-07
I disagree. I think Taim's followers freed Taim, but when they learned that taim plans to follow Rand they leave him. as they r disgusted that Taim lied to them about being the Dragon Reborn