1
Tamyrlin: 2004-09-29
(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
Rhodric has me semi-convinced that Mesaana was Shevan, but why not stir the pot a little? With a wooden spoon held like a scepter...
Zader, you may want to look to see if there are any quotes featuring Laras after the scene where Siuan et.al. escape. If they exist, they may strengthen your theory.
2
amazinglarry: 2004-09-29
I think the main problem with this theory is that Laras has been around in the tower since long before the Forsaken were freed. So, Mesaana would have had to kill Laras and assume her personality convincingly enough that people who had known Laras for many years would be fooled. And since Laras is a fairly well-known figure in the Tower, this would be particularly difficult. I don't know of any clues offhand that Laras has been acting out of the ordinary...does anyone else remember anything? It would be like Jordan to throw a sentence in somewhere in which some random character notices that Laras has said something out of character if this theory is correct. I think it is more likely that Mesaana is impersonating an AS who was out of the tower for a while, to make it easier to adopt her personality.
amazinglarry
3
a dragonburned fool: 2004-09-29
Nice to see another one, who independently came to the true idea about Mesaana's identity. I posted similar theory in the same time in the message board (to be found at:
link.
4
Flinn Sedai: 2004-09-29
this idea has even been posed on this message board by me. here is the link to that one. there isnt much argument for, but people did discuss why not quite a bit.
http://theoryland.com/theories.php?func=5&rec=85&theo=1452
5
Elder Haman: 2004-09-29
Mesanna is Danelle- I know that we all want to reject Danelle as the culprit because she is just "too obvious." I know RJ loves to give us Red Herrings, (think Taimadred), but sometimes a fish is just a fish.
6
Callandor: 2004-09-29
**(TDR ch 29) Laras “She carried her own long handled spoon like a scepter. It was not for stirring, that spoon. It was for directing those under her, and smacking those who were not building character quickly enough to suit her.”**
Ah, so Elaida has also ways to be Mesaana, since what she did to Moiraine and Siuan in New Spring?
People believe in discipline; hard discipline.
**“How did you get those keys?” it was Siuan Sanche's voice. “It is her” Laras sounded disbelieving. She poked Min with a thick finger “Hurry, child! I am too old and slow to be having adventures.” Min gave her a startled look; the woman had insisted on coming.**
Why would Mesaana be disbelieving about seeing a stilled woman?
**Also Laras is a very big woman, thinning her face down would nearly be the same as changing the ageless look. How often do people actually recognise others they see as servants.**
? Don't get what you mean.
7
a dragonburned fool: 2004-09-30
I'll don't point out the quote from tDR about Laras holding her spoon like a cepter as an evidence about Mesaana. Mainly because I believe that in tDR Laras is stil the real Laras, and that Mesaana took her identity after that, while in the time of tDR the Forsaken active in the White Tower was Lanfear. The stress on discipline is normal for the Laras' posiiton and the asme future about Laras is said even in NS in Moiraine's PoV. However this interest of the real Laras would be convenient for Mesaana, as she could safely go further with building characters without anybody finding it a enormous change.
*** "I think the main problem with this theory is that Laras has been around in the tower since long before the Forsaken were freed. So, Mesaana would have had to kill Laras and assume her personality convincingly enough that people who had known Laras for many years would be fooled. And since Laras is a fairly well-known figure in the Tower, this would be particularly difficult. I don't know of any clues offhand that Laras has been acting out of the ordinary...does anyone else remember anything?" ***
Actually Siuan noticed (TSR ch 47) a change in Laras' behavior after Laras became the official title Mistress of the Kitchens (i.e. short after tDR). After that moment Laras stopped to watch her accounts, what she aparently did before. We know Mesaana doesn't like "too common" actions. But Mesaana has her hobby in administering common sevices what she did well as a governor during the War of Shadow. And Siuan notices that the Kitchens work in excellent order despite of the poor accounts.
*** "Why would Mesaana be disbelieving about seeing a stilled woman?" ***
We have discussed this before on the message boards. Mesaana was not surprised seeing a stilled woman, she was surprised seeing a woman losing her ageless face. Ageless face was something uncommon in AoL.
8
Callandor: 2004-09-30
**We have discussed this before on the message boards. Mesaana was not surprised seeing a stilled woman, she was surprised seeing a woman losing her ageless face. Ageless face was something uncommon in AoL.**
How lovely, and I still disagree with it. It might not have been common as it is today, but it was common enough to know the effects on people before hand (that it shortens their lifespan), so why not the severing effects?
9
a dragonburned fool: 2004-10-03
**It might not have been common as it is today, but it was common enough to know the effects on people before hand (that it shortens their lifespan), so why not the severing effects?**
In AoL it was not used by any prestigious institutions. It was rather sometimes used as a punishment. After this usage the punished person wouldn't be regarded as dangerous or even important in any range, and this person would be not regarded as worth to waste time for severing him/her. Especially while the effect of the gfetting visibly young like Siuan requires being severed long time after being bound by the Rod. Also it was a punishment of the hyperhumanistic society before the Bore, and the Shadow rather hadn't high opinion about it. The usage of the Oath Rod for it's present purpose is not something done in the AoL so maybe there are some differences also there: after all now the Oath Rod is used not for it's original purpose.
10
Callandor: 2004-10-03
**In AoL it was not used by any prestigious institutions. It was rather sometimes used as a punishment. After this usage the punished person wouldn't be regarded as dangerous or even important in any range, and this person would be not regarded as worth to waste time for severing him/her. Especially while the effect of the gfetting visibly young like Siuan requires being severed long time after being bound by the Rod. Also it was a punishment of the hyperhumanistic society before the Bore, and the Shadow rather hadn't high opinion about it. The usage of the Oath Rod for it's present purpose is not something done in the AoL so maybe there are some differences also there: after all now the Oath Rod is used not for it's original purpose.**
Adf...
They know the side-effects of what the Oaths from the Oath Rod do. You're telling me they wouldn't study it in depth, and everyone would know of it?
Please.
11
Jumai: 2004-10-06
The scepter spoon is something common to all head cooks in Randland. Setalle Anan's cook does it, the Queen's Blessing cook does it, IIRC the Panarch's Palace cook does as well.
I think the lip-tapping is supposed to be the tell.
12
timetorollthedice: 2004-10-11
From TDR, page 338 (Paperback) "A Trap to Spring"
Nynaeve sniffed..."Laras is a sour lump of lard and too handy with that spoon by half." She thought she had muttered it under her breath, but she heard the Amyrlin chuckle wrly.
"You are a fine judge of character, child. You must have done well as the Wisdom of your village. It was Lara who went to Sheriam and demanded to know how long you three are to be kept to the dirtiest and hardest work, without a turn at lighter. She said she would not be a party to breaking any woman's health or spirit, no matter what I said. A fine judge of character child."
In this quote, Siuan seems to be using sarcasm. In other words, she is telling Nynaeve that Nynaeve is a terrible judge of character if she thinks that Laras is a mean one.
I put this forward to suggest that it supports the theory that Laras is Mesaana. Siuan knows the real Laras (the one who cares) and Nynaeve only knows the mean one (Mesaana).
Nynaeves judgement is not off at all.
13
a dragonburned fool: 2004-10-14
Callandor,
***They know the side-effects of what the Oaths from the Oath Rod do. You're telling me they wouldn't study it in depth, and everyone would know of it?***
Sorry for so late response, but her I go: You are speaking about the side-effects of an Oath Rod like the ageless look. I admit "they" knew about. But what happens when a unished one who after long long years of punishment is severed: that I doubt they knew. The way to know that is to make the experiment. The good AoLer wouldn't make the experiment. The Shadow followers would not make it for another reason - it is not interesting enough while there are much more intriguing experiments to be done. Who will care about a pair of invalides?
Even if some AoLers studied the side-effects of the Oath-Rod, I'm stating that it was not known for the wide population. Not because of any secrecy, but because of the lack of interest to know about it. In AoL they had much more interesting things to study about. Oath Rod usage was marginal, uninteresting, boring. For the good AoLers at least. Their first social motivation was glory, reputation, and being forced to use an Oath Rod was for those who ruined their reputation, i.e. for those who were not worth to be object of interest. So third names are signs of worth to be object of interest, and Balthamel had the deeds for third name, but became no third name because of his scandalous behavior. Balthamel's scandalous behavior was less inappropriate then what those punished with the Oath Rod did. So the Oath Rod punished would be even less mentioned by the wide public then cases like Balthamel.
The ones punished by Oath Rod were IMO threaten in AoL like the burned out and stilled AS in 3Age. Nobody wanted to think about. Nobody wanted to know about. Maybe a closed circle of poeople knew, but that were those who had the obligation to care about. The reason for AoLer to not want to think about these "criminals" is because such abnormal behavior was unthinkable for the very conception of their well-organized society. Look how AS have their stilled and bourn-outs experience, but the Tower even so doesn't know how an AS looks like after being stilled. THey don't know because they want not to think about. If they know once, they forget later. And then forget it again and again. So that most people just don't know.
timetorollthedice,
the Problem with Nynaeve knowing the Larasaana is, that in that time Lanfear was still the Forsaken in the Tower. With Lanfear running around in the Tower it would be not so probable for Mesaana to run in her way there in the same time. Mesaana rather came after Lanfear's getting away from the Tower, and Lanfear did it somewhere close after the supergirls left the Tower.
14
Callandor: 2004-10-14
**You are speaking about the side-effects of an Oath Rod like the ageless look. I admit "they" knew about. But what happens when a unished one who after long long years of punishment is severed: that I doubt they knew. The way to know that is to make the experiment. The good AoLer wouldn't make the experiment.**
You're right; the good people of the AoL wouldn't.
However, the Oath Rod is all about one thing in the AoL: reform. It was to punish criminals to never do their crimes again. You're telling me that some people, after a long period of time, would not reform and get the Oaths removed?
That ~I~ doubt.
**The Shadow followers would not make it for another reason - it is not interesting enough while there are much more intriguing experiments to be done.**
I'm not saying they actually performed it; they simply have to know what the side-effects are of the removal.
**Even if some AoLers studied the side-effects of the Oath-Rod, I'm stating that it was not known for the wide population.**
Sure, but channelers are a minority, even in the AoL ;)
**Not because of any secrecy, but because of the lack of interest to know about it.**
Excuse me? Lack of interest? Well it appears that Semirhage has first hand knowledge of a close call, and Graendal and Sammael both know of it.
It seems likely there was an interest in an object that would make you unable to do what you were judged evil to be doing (important for evil do-ers), and shortens your lifespan?
**In AoL they had much more interesting things to study about.**
That they made it, and more then one, shows an interest. Don't try to avoid that trap.
**Oath Rod usage was marginal, uninteresting, boring. For the good AoLers at least.**
Where's that quote?
**Nobody wanted to think about. Nobody wanted to know about.**
You're proved wrong then; we have three Forsaken that ~do~ know about it.
**Maybe a closed circle of poeople knew, but that were those who had the obligation to care about.**
Closed circle... could the Forsaken count for that? I sure as heck think so.
If the Forsaken knew about it, Mesaana would know about it, and would not be surprised about the results of Siuan's punishment.
**Look how AS have their stilled and bourn-outs experience, but the Tower even so doesn't know how an AS looks like after being stilled.**
They do know; it's just not studied often.
But, that is stilling; not simply being restricted from doing something. While they do sound equally bad, the binders are hardly even close to as bad as servering.
Plus, we're talking about the AoL, not the 3rd Age ;) Big difference in knowledge.
15
terez: 2004-11-29
One bit of evidence in support of this theory that I haven't seen yet is this: Alviarin's first revealed meeting with Mesaana said that it seemed that Mesaana could not channel at all, and when she did, the flows seemed as if they came "from nowhere". My books are borrowed out at the time, so I can't provide the quote, but this seems to suggest that Mesaana is hiding her ability to channel and posing as a servant, or such. Surely not a petitioner, they don't stay long enough.
16
Jumper: 2006-12-24
One people haven't taken account of yet is that Mesanna feels personally and directly responsible for the split in the tower. Don't have my books with me but I know there are some quoutes that support this especially in Knife of Dreams. So whoever is helping the tower be split and stay split may be helping Mesanna split the tower. Laras helped split the tower by helping Siuan and Min escape the tower. Danelle helped it by helping usurp Siuan. So both are candidates at this point one thing is to watch who later helps keep them apart.
Also how did Laras help a valuable prisoner escape for surely Siuan was well guarded. From this and later actions I believe Laras is either Mesanna or a high ranking darkfriend who has been working for Messanna.
17
TheDragonMustLive: 2006-12-24
One thing no one has mentioned is that Min never had any viewings of Laras. She always has viewings around people who can channel. Just masquerading wouldn't eliminate that. Even if Mesaana's channeling inverted weaves to hide her identity made the viewing fuzzy, Min would still have seen something.
18
deil: 2009-01-18
I've also considered Laras as a possibility, but i agree with Jumai that the lip-tapping is the tell. For the most part I suspect Mesaana isn't hiding as an Aes Sedai mainly because she's hiding her ability to channel. I suppose she would not want to be lumped together with them anyway, given the typical forsaken's contempt for modern day Aes Sedai. But if she was, it would not make sense for her to hide the ability completely. Filter it maybe, so she would appear much weaker. Hiding it completely only makes sense if her guise can't channel at all.
That still leaves a lot, though. She could be one of any number of servants, orderlies and common citizens(we must not forget the city outside the actual Tower). She could be masquerading as one of the Tower Guard for all we know. Terez might be right in saying petitioners don't stay long. Any one petitioner, that is. What if she kept returning looking like a different petitioner? Might be too much trouble, but the again, maybe not.
19
erikstar: 2010-03-02
i'd root for danelle (coz of different hints from the books, such as her being dreamy, and having blue eyes, and being near elaida's study after alviarin spoke with elaida, and talking with alviarin, knowing all the details of what happened inside the study) or seaine (far, far, far second hehe coz of her eyes mainly, and her name, which is the same as mesaana's real first name, and her access to the oath rod. in the gathering storm, egwene said that mesaana probably has a way of getting around the 3 oaths.)
20
cantstandnynaeve: 2010-03-03
Can't be Seaine. She took the oaths and swore off being a Darkfriend when she and Pevara started their hunt. Unless she knows how to prevent the oath from taking hold.
