esaana is Danelle of the Brown Ajah
by Raen Mhaal: 2002-11-05 | 6 out of 10 (4 votes)
I think that Mesaana is masquerading as Danelle, a sister of the brown ajah in the White Tower. Here are my reasons:
In ACOS prologue, when Alviarin grabs the hem of Mesaanas dress she sees a sort of gold silk with black scrollwork. Danelle is a brown sister, and so would likely wear this or a similar colour. Danelle is only recently returned to the tower after a long exile. It would probably be expected for a sister in that situation to wear the colour of her Ajah for a short while after her return.
Also in ACOS prologue, Alviarin thinks to herself that Danelle is the dreamy type with no friends, even in her own ajah. In the same section, she thinks that Mesaana must be posing as a sister, and it would
almost have to be one with few or no friends so that infiltration may be easier. We already know that Danelle had been out of the tower for a long time, and most of the people there either didn't remember her too well or had never known her. That definitely sounds like Danelle to me. Is it really coincidental to have both of these observations made within a few pages of eachother?
ACOS prologue, Alviarin is walking to her apartments for her meeting with the 'Great Mistress'. Every sister acknowledges her except for Danelle, who just plain ignores her. Forsaken arrogance, perhaps?
Danelle is one of the sisters who helped to depose Suian Sanche. This could have been a way for Mesaana/Danelle to get the head of the Black Ajah into a high-up position to spy for her. As Alviarin did seem to be instrumental in this coup, it seems likely to me that there was more black involvement than met the eye. Of all the people in the tower, who is the blackest person there? Mesaana. Also, Danelle is the only sister who supported Elaidas and Alviarins rise into higher rank who doesn't seem to care that she is being 'shoved aside'. Mesaana would
certainly be keen to hang back and not draw any more attention to herself. She already has an 'eye and ear' close to Elaida anyway, so why care? She (Mesaana) also seems to be amused with Elaida and her petty attempts at playing Amyrlin, and seems to think she hasn't outlived her usefulness 'yet'. This implies to me that Mesaana has and still does consider Elaida being Amyrlin to be profitable for her. The BWB even says that she did not truly want the appearance of power, just the power itself, and through Alviarin, she has just that. She stays in the shadows despite being the true power.
Mesanna tapped her fingers against her lip when talking to/at Alviarin. Finger tapping, to me, seems to be the act of a dreamy person, or someone lost in thought. Danelle certainly meets that criteria. Danelle is always described as dreamy, with the exception of one scene: deposing SS, TSR chapter 47. It actually says "her big blue eyes not dreamy at all". In fact Danelle even went so far as to 'smirk' at Suian. That suggests to me that she enjoyed the concept of what she was about to do. Since when do AS enjoy stilling people? Mesaana is also described in the books, and as well as in the BWB, as being dreamy (The actual quote is "often taken for being dreamy because of her introspection).
Danelle, as we know, is a sister of the Brown Ajah. This would certainly fit with Mesaana, who was a researcher and scientist in the Age of Legends. Or so it says in the BWB. In fact, during the War Of Power, she was behind the killing of teachers, researchers, museam curators, etc. Before the war, she was declined a position in the Collam Daan, and relegated to a teaching role. Now she is in the White Tower, and is in the Brown Ajah - the researchers Ajah - and is also teaching the novices and accepted. She is a teacher once again. And true to her habit of destroying teachers, curators, etc, she (posing as Danelle) brought about the deposing of Suian Sanche.
Also, at the very beginning of that chapter Suian is thinking to herself about how Danelle is bringing in masses of workers to build this new library. She puts it down to the fact that Danelle wasn't paying attention to the job because she had her nose in a book . Later, when SS learns of the fighting in the tower and the 2-300 soldiers who originally claimed to be masons tried to take over the tower, she scowled and said "Danelle! I should have realised there was more to it than not paying attention."
One final thing: in ACOS prologue and TPOD chapter 25, Alviarin figures something out about Mesaana. The first time she thinks "Knowledge is Power.", and the second time she thinks "Mesaana was hiding herself in the tower, and knowledge was power" Note the presence of 'knowledge is power' in both situations. Also note that the latter is past tence. Some may say that this thought means that her knowledge of Mesaanas position gives her some small ammount of power. I think that the word 'knowledge' is aimed at hinting that she is a brown ajah, or at least posing as someone who has a lust for knowledge. Put that together with the brown/gold hem and the finger-tapping (dreaminess maybe) and I think it definitely points to a brown ajah. And in my opinion, it is none other than Danelle.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2002-11-05
While Danelle could just be a follower that likes to look down on those put below her, the fact that Mesanna has to be a recently returned sister (I agree with you there), and that RJ has mentioned her more often than usual, along with your points, does give you good circumstantial evidence. Too bad no clothing references or tapping references have been found to really cement the claim. Nice.
2
oldmanfish: 2002-11-06
Not a bad theory. Danelle would be my first choice, among the sisters we know. But Mesaana doesn't even have to be a sister. Remember Greandal, as Glydin the maid, tossing a little Compulsion here and there to carry it off. There are hundreds of servants in the Tower, well beneath the notice of sisters.
3
Dragon Thief: 2002-11-06
I like it, Metalian. I did a search for you, to find what I could. The name Danelle is only mentioned about ten times in the entire series, so it isn't much. She's described as a young Brown sister, little (as in petite), with big blue eyes, often dreamy, and solitary with no friends, even among her own Ajah. Other than that, the only possible significant thing she's done is that the Salidar Six (Sheriam's group) intercepted a report she'd wrote Elaida about the different monarchs responses to some unmentioned idea.
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Raen Mhaal: 2002-11-08
Ten times is still quite alot for someone who really does nothing. And thanks for the bit about the interception of the report, Thief. I'd forgotten that bit. And where did you learn the name Metalian? ;-)
5
nbt57: 2002-11-13
Danelle is not mesanna. Mesanna is Zerah who was forced to be bound by the three oaths in pod or wh. I forgot which. Alvarin remarked that she had embroidery at the bottom of the dress and zerah had the same dress later on. She said she came from the north, which is true but she went to salidar and then went to the white tower. The question is Does she have the agelessness look or not? I think she was young but I am not to sure or maybe zerah was a real sister who she killed and then used her identity. She was able to state she was not black ajah when she swore the oaths which is true. But she is the one of the forsaken and we will find out when the black ajah hunt takes on some speed. This will be easier with the confusion caused by the war with the other group of aes sedia.
6
beslan1: 2002-11-15
Ok, but please help me out with one question about these theories re. Mesaana. How could it be possible that of all the sisters in the Tower, not one of them ever is able to sense how strong her energy is in the power?
With all the political hierarchy the AS play, which is based on perceived strength in the power... it seems to me that--if she were posing as an AS, then Mesaana's strength would have been perceived somewhere along the ling?
Am i missing something here?
7
pointyman: 2002-11-15
As she is hiding in the Tower, it is obvious that she is using some form of weave which masks her ability to some extent. Moghedien showed Elayne and Nynaeve how to completely mask one's ability in Salidar; there is no reason to assume that it cannot be partially obscured as well. I don't know if it is Danelle, there seems to be a lot of circumstantial evidence that she is. However, it could well be a sister we have not met yet, or who we have only met in passing. I would imagine we will get a lot more pointers in COT, what with Egwene's attempt to oust Elaida and a lot of the action occurring in the WT.
8
Raen Mhaal: 2002-11-16
Mesaana is not Zerah. The dress had scroll work on it, but the hem was white. Alviarin commented that the hem of Zerah's dress had the scrollwork. Also, Zerah was caught in a lie when she said she came from the north. She was forced to take a fourth oath - to obey Pevara's command. Zerah was a sister that was obviously known. It is commented by Sheriam (I think) that they'd heard no word from Zerah, and was wondering if she and the other nine sisters sent to the tower had been caught. She was a new sister, barely wearing the ring for 50 years, and recognised by. On the basis she was a known sister, and that she went to Salidar at all, Zerah can be ruled out. Seaine knew her, and Pevara knew her. Mesaana would have to be a VERY good actor to firstly show such convincing outrage and being accused of being black ajah, and also at posing as someone who is known. Danelle is supported in this by the fact that hardly anyone knew her.
9
silverwolf: 2002-12-12
I agree with oldmanfish, that mesaana might be one of the servants. Also, Alviarin was walking past Danelle when she was on her way to a meeting with mesaana; if Mesaana is Danelle, she would have had to travel to Alviarin's rooms to be waiting there. I know they're in the white tower, but someone should have felt that big of a surge of power even if they weren't paying attention (remember that traveling takes a great deal of the OP, enough that most of the present-day Aes Sedai are too weak to do it)
10
Callandor: 2002-12-13
Mesaana can certainly mask her abilities. Lanfear used this exact same trick in TDR when she posed as Else Grinwall to go about in the Tower.
11
Callandor: 2002-12-22
No way Mesaana is Zerah in my book (even though its RJ ;-)). NO, repeat, NO Forsaken would let themselves be bound by the Oath Rod. They know that its a binder and what they do.
Another masking thing. Lanfear in the Waste MUST have hid her ability from Moiraine otherwise she would be found in a second. Remember she is prolly the most powerful female channeler (Lanfear not Moiraine and before she went to Finnland).
12
Darren: 2003-01-10
I don't think Mesanna is Danelle either, I was just intrigued by Callandor's last comment. Why couldn't one of the Forsaken use a binder? Nothing short of balefire can kill them, after all. Of course, the DO would know, and they'd be killed for failure, but that doesn't mean they'd suddenly age to death.
13
Callandor: 2003-01-10
The guide said that Sem was convicted of numerous crimes for extracting extra pain for when she Healed people in the AoL. She was given a choice of severing (stilling/gentling in AoL terminology) or being bound by a Binder.
Now its painfully obvious that the Oath Rod is a Binder because you can look at how Galina felt after the 111 Rod was used on her. And the Oath Rod is number 3 in that set or whatever it is (Note: It is NOT one of the Nine Rods of Dominion).
Now Sem knew that if she was bound she would be able to **see the end coming**. This of course means that they know how long they live (in other words once bound everybody lives that long).
Now all Aes Sedai are bound young, the White Tower dont take old people before. And the oldest Aes Sedai that is known is Cads. Shes like 300 I think. So I think that that is VERY close to the limit on Aes Sedai bound by the Oath Rod.
Now what if someone around 300 became bound by the Rod? Would they die right away? What if someone was 3000+ years? Even if they were given immortality by the DO I think that they might just kick the bucket from that. Never know though.
14
Tamyrlin: 2003-01-10
Just to note, the immortality that the DO offers is not that the body won't ever die, instead, that he will transmigrate their souls into new bodies, so in essence they will never be returned to the pattern and lose the current life of their soul.
15
Darren: 2003-01-11
True they can be killed, but they don't exactly die of old age, either. Yes, I am aware that Oath Rods are binders, and I hadn't read the Guide, but then, I don't really trust anything but the (so-far) ten source texts. It's really hard to say what a binding would do to someone with a potentially infinite "natural" lifespan.
16
Darren: 2003-01-11
In fact, thinking about it, the lack of aging on the Forsaken's part is almost by definition a TP effect. Binding is a OP effect that interferes with the longevity granted through use of the OP, which is already a finite grant. The only thing we could say is that binding a forsaken would shorten their "pre-cord" (before they became Chosen) finite lifespan, which their tie to the Dark One allows them to stand outside of.
We know this for the same reason that Asmodean didn't instantly die when Rand severed his black cord. If he suddenly aged all the years he'd been alive, he would have dropped dead. Since he didn't, we can assume that the DO's longevity is not an expansion of lifespan, but a cessation of aging altogether.
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Daishan: 2003-01-11
I don't agree. The Forsaken have been bound within the seals, and the bodies of those near the top actually HAVE aged (Aginor/Balthamel). The other ones were bound deeper and were outside any real aging I think. So those 3000 years hardly count, if at all. In my book at least. I rather agree with Tamyrlin's definition of the DO's immortality.
Which brings up another point; does this mean the DO can only "bring back" those he has attached himself to? Ishy often made comments about the DO being the Lord of the Grave or such. He more than implied that if Rand died, the DO would get him anyway. In my view it seems rather pessimistic that the DO can get everyone who dies. No heaven; everyone goes to hell...
But we were talking about Forsaken and binders. In my view a Forsaken could accept an oath on a binder without dropping dead, as I just said, BUT most of them are incredibly arrogant and probably wouldn't let themselves be "manhandled" like Zera was. If Zera really was Mesaana, she would just have shielded her interrogators and have disposed of them. Or something a bit more conspicuous.
Danelle still seems the best option to me (actually I thought this was sort of an "agreed point" already).
18
Daishan: 2003-01-11
By the way, talking about re-iterating; there a HUGE section in the archives about Mesaana's possible identity. The biggest candidate by far from all the evidence gathered there really seems to be Danelle. The mannerisms, match, the character profiles match, and the ironic twists match. Another ironic twist that fits; Mesaana became Forsaken when she was turned down for a research position at the Collam Daan in the AoL. They told her she wasn't "research material" so to speak, but she could still teach. It always rankled her. Now she poses as a Brown Sister. Browns seek knowledge, but often end up teaching. No evidence in itself, of course, but a nice twist that fits, and in combination with everything else I really would have to say it's Danelle.
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Callandor: 2003-01-11
Mesaana also taps her finger on her lips when she thinks. I agree that Danelle is most likely, and the person I think that Mesaana actualy is, but like the finger tapping thing we have TONS of Aes Sedai and even non-Aes Sedai that do that.
Plus I admit that I am a very skeptical person. There is a lot of evidence pointing to Danelle being Mesaana, but you never know if RJ is just overloading on one person in order for another to be the real deal (anyone read the Harry Potter books and you know exactly what I am talking about).
But to me the facts are way too many so its almost a given that its Danelle.
20
Darren: 2003-01-11
I have to disagree with you here. The effect that you call aging at the end of EoTW as manifest in Aginor and Balthamel Jordan specifically links not to the passing of time, but to being "ground fine" by the Wheel of time. This MAY mean aging, but I don't think so. I think it has more to do with the imperfect mechanism of their prison.
21
Daishan: 2003-01-12
Of course that's also possible. We may very probably never know. The problem is we don't have any reference of bound or maybe stilled Forsaken or such. It seems to me very unlikely though, that you could instantly "drop dead" from a binder the moment you used it. What if the limit is, say 325 years. And in the AoL, you were 400 and committed a crime? Or 600 or more? I don't believe you would instantly drop dead. It seems to me it just speeds up your aging process from the moment of binding.
22
Callandor: 2003-01-12
The imperfectness of their prison leads to the aging. Example would be how Arignor and Bethamel were REALLY old and frail (Bethamel didnt even have a tounge to talk with). BUT Lanfear and the rest of the Forsaken were totally unaged. According to the guide Lanfear and the rest were imprisioned deeper in the Bore then Arignor and Bethamel. That is what was ment by the **Grindings of the Wheel**. And its the Wheel of TIME. What else do you expect to happen to him if it grinds on someone?
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Darren: 2003-01-12
When's the last time someone lost their tongue from old age, Callandor? They weren't wrinkled, they were MESSED UP...
Anyhow, another thing that makes me think that the DO's immortality allows you stand outside of the effects of time is the DO's aims, and the fact that Time (manifest in the Wheel) is a Creator effect. The DO wants to destroy the wheel and "stop time." You can see that even in the introduction to the series. I think his "gifts" would reflect that paradigm.
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Daishan: 2003-01-13
I have to agree with Callandor about the aging thing. I think they did age, but they aged beyond death. Their bodies had started to rot. And Balthamel's tongue rotted away. He's also filled with maggots and guck and stuff.
And the DO can't get outside time YET. He wants to, and that's why he needs to win TG. But in Demandred's talk with the DO at the start of LoC Demandred notices frustration in the DO's voice when the DO says (quote) "EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME" (caps NOT added, lol). So I think he cannot stop time itself, not even for one person, but he can reïncarnate that person if he has a string attached.
25
Darren: 2003-01-13
That quote about the DO's frustration is how he can't go back in time to resurrect Forsaken destroyed by balefire. How he can't have access to all times at his whim, in other words, time travel.
I'm not saying the forsaken can travel through time, I'm just saying they have certain defenses against its effects that the normal channeler does not.
26
Callandor: 2003-01-13
This is weird because Daishan makes a very valid point. In TEOTW when the first 2 Forsaken appear at the Eye, Arignor says how the DO will **clothe them in new flesh** or something to that extent (I don't have that book with me at present just going off memory here).
So the DO does plan to give them new bodies right off the bat but only them because they are the only ones that need it.
And if you want to get REALLY nit picky the Forsaken have traveled through time in a sense just that they cant go back.
27
Daishan: 2003-01-14
I STILL don't agree, Darren. Perhaps it's time we start factions :-)
The Forsaken weren't even bound "outside of time" by the DO, they were bound by Lews and his "Hundred" Companions. I have seen no evidence so far that they have stopped aging. I really have to agree with Tamyrlin that the DO's "immortality" is the promise of reïncarnation. At least we have seen some clues that point to that.
28
Tamyrlin: 2003-01-14
Actually, this has been one of my favorite discussions. I don't know that it has been studied as much as it should. Is immortality the gift of an endless life of transmigration, or are their "bodily" gifts that allow the physical body an endless life (until killed of course)? I think factions and this discussion should be moved to the message board. Although, to champion a faction you may have to wait a bit (to be a champion you must have premium membership for administration purposes and you must be of Elder rank, contact me for further questions about that.)
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Darren: 2003-01-14
Also and regardless, IF we accept that Aginor and Balthamel's state at the end of EOTW is the result of aging as Daishan and Callandor state, then the reversal of that aging which we see in the book, THROUGH the medium of the DO, CLEARLY PROVES MY POINT. Which is that the Dark One grants his chosen power over aging.
30
Tamyrlin: 2003-01-15
Thanks for everyone's comments. I am going to close this theory. I will reject any further replies. Please take your discussion to the message board. Thanks, you friendly and fearless host.
31
Traveller: 2005-07-17
Just one question:
Why is Danelle seeming to go out of the story? She seemed more important before, but seems to be slowly fading (unlike Tarna Feir who I think might be Mesaana).
However, Danelle does have good points for her, and I think there is a good chance you are correct.
32
Callandor: 2005-07-17
**Why is Danelle seeming to go out of the story? She seemed more important before, but seems to be slowly fading (unlike Tarna Feir who I think might be Mesaana).**
Why did Maigan get mentions in The Great Hunt with arriving and leaving with the Amyrlin, then disappear for 8 books, only to reappear in a promonent position on Egwene's advisory council replacing Anaiya?
33
Traveller: 2005-09-04
OK, I agree its possible, but I don't see that it has to be the most likely answer. I think that the whole Mesaana thing really is a bit of a moot point until The Knife of Dreams comes out, since it has been explored in some depth. Come on, hurry up )October 11th!
