1
Tamyrlin: 2003-03-18
Interesting tie in of Saidar failing. I had considered it more of an action of the DO and his minions, than a reaction to the destruction of the taint and the rebalancing. This of course is not directly related to the Asha'man and the White Tower. The question becomes, will the Black Tower also split. Will Taim's faction decide to attack the White Tower, or will they be so involved in their own war that they won't have time to consider the White Tower? By the way, you are correct in assuming the Asha'man could take the White Tower. They deny the existence, the strength, and the knowledge of the Asha'man, which is one recipe ripe for destruction.
2
WinespringBrother: 2003-03-19
Don't have books in front of me, so if I'm having faulty memories please excuse me... Anyway, weren't there problems with saidar in ACOS? During the battle with Rand, didn't at least one damane lose control and kill the wrong people? Or something like that? I thought it was attributable to the Bowl of the Winds.
3
Weird Harold: 2003-03-19
Rand-althor:
"It is logical to think that if it is mostly 'Keepings' which are failing, then this means that it will get worse before it gets better ... I believe that the counterbalance of Saidar will eventually come to an all out not working for a time.
"Female channelers may be able to sense it, but not weave it with any reliability. This would mean that in effect the battle at the tower would come to a complete and total stop with no channeling. ... Now Saidin seems to have no mentioned effects from it, meaning that Saidin will still be useful."
I don't think the "re-balancing" will ever get quite to the point where either half of the source becomes literally untouchable. It may become unreliable to use at times, as it did after the Bowl of the Winds was used, but not untouchable.
"No *mentioned* effects" is probably more relevant than you think. When the Bowl of the Winds was used, it affected both halves of the True Source. This time, the lack of the "vileness" of the Taint is masking the bad effects on Saidin from a massive use of both halves of the power.
The Bad Effects of the Bowl of the Winds were more obvious because of the amount of "distortion" involved -- like speaker operated with more volume than they're designed for. The Bad Effects of the Cleansing, which used far more of the One Power are less obvious, only because the Chodean Kal was designed to handle more power and didn't cause "distortion."
Rand-althor:
"This means that whatever side gets to and negotiates better with the Asha'man will win, seeing as they will have the only channelers. Of course channeling is not the be all and end all, but one Asha'man can take out more than his fair share of military as we saw at Dumai's Wells."
The restoration of the White Tower won't be a major military battle, even with a Seanchan attack as a catalyst. The restoration won't even make a big use of the One Power. There will be some shielding and/or dosing with Forkroot Tea, but much less actual fighting than when Siuan was deposed. The Restoration will be a Political victory rather than a Military one.
Rand-althor:
"This means that it will all come down to who the Asha'man decide to support. Ironic that Aes Sedai may now have to rely on Asha'man who they are scared of and would have severed if they could."
The Asha'man are the key to solving the failing wards, even if they aren't going to figure prominently in a big battle over the White Tower. For the wards to be restored, and the other unnoticed effects on both Saidar and Saidin, the two halves of the True Source will have to truly be used as a One Power instead of separately.
Rand-althor:
"Another side note for those who think that the failing of Saidar is because of the amount used, Saidin was used even more ... so then why would Saidin be experiencing no ill effects."
Tamyrlin:
"Interesting tie in of Saidar failing. ... a reaction to the destruction of the taint and the re-balancing."
Tamyrlin's Description of the problem as a "re-balancing" after the destruction of the Taint is a good one. Much more of the True Source was used in the Cleansing than with the Bowl of the Winds -- enough to over-stress another ter'angreal -- but there are no complaints about a "strangeness" in Saidin or Saidar; Just cryptic comments about wards and other "keepings" failing.
WinespringBrother:
"Anyway, weren't there problems with Saidar in ACOS? During the battle with Rand, didn't at least one damane lose control and kill the wrong people? Or something like that? I thought it was attributable to the Bowl of the Winds."
You are correct that the Bowl of the Winds caused a "strangeness" in both Saidin and Saidar that was most noticeable in Altara. Elayne's failed attempt to unweave a gateway probably contributed to the "strangeness," but RJ attributed it to the Bowl of the Winds being used beyond its designed limits. Rand and some of the Asha'man also lost control and killed almost everyone around them.
I think the Cleansing caused a similar "strangeness" in the True Source that isn't as obvious for a couple of reasons:
A: There wasn't the same degree of "distortion" because it wasn't a ter'angreal drawing more Saidin, on it's own, than it could handle -- it was the Saidar key that was overstressed, and it was buffered" by Nyneave's physical state controlling how much Rand could draw.
B: The obvious effects in on the World are more localized and specific than the Bowl of the Winds Produced. The Taint was cleansed everywhere, but it's really "in the World;" The Bowl of the Winds had world-wide effects even non-channelers noticed (eventually). Channelers all over the world *SAW* the weaves from the BOTW, they only FELT the Cleansing.
The True Source is always described with analogies to Water -- vast seas, gentle currents or raging torrents; even the Taint was described as an oil slick floating on the surface of Saidin. The Two halves of the One Power are very much like the waters on either side of break-water -- Turbulent and Raging on the Sea-ward side, and calm with hidden undertows to trap the unwary on the Shore-ward side.
I think Rand created kind of super "neap tide" on the sea-ward side of the breakwater and that "drained" the True Source from the Shore-ward side temporarily; weakening Wards, keepings, and other static weaves. Since the vast majority of those weaves are made with Saidar, that would make it appear to be problem with Saidar only. The temporary low ebb in Saidar wouldn't affect active weaves, or drain Saidar enough for active users to notice unless they attempted something that required a very large amount of Saidar.
The cleansing created a great deal of turbulence in Saidin -- much more than it affected Saidin, but there are only three(?) people alive who would notice the turbulence or know that it was strange -- Moridin, Demandred, and Halima. No other Saidin user knows what clean Saidin is *supposed* to feel like. Rand has encountered pure Saidin once, but only for a few moments, from a calm Well, and was just a bit distracted at the time to be noticing the finer distinctions in turbulence.
Eventually, the True Source will have to be used in combinations of Saidar and Saidin to prevent large workings from creating turbulence in the other half of the True Source. It may be necessary to combine for small tasks such as keepings as well, where they ae intended to be left unattended, for them to work properly.
Tamyrlin:
"This of course is not directly related to the Asha'man and the White Tower. The question becomes, will the Black Tower also split. Will Taim's faction decide to attack the White Tower, or will they be so involved in their own war that they won't have time to consider the White Tower? By the way, you are correct in assuming the Asha'man could take the White Tower."
Yes, they will split; No, *neither* faction will attack the WT; Anyone other than an AS can see the Asha'man can take the Tower whenever they want, and some AS are starting to see that as well.
4
Callandor: 2003-03-19
Yes. That did happen, but it was in TPOD. However, it doesnt seem that it would continue through 3 books, even through more, and we dont have any references to it still being weird.
Another note is that in only failed in the area around were it was used and spreading out. Near Tar Valon for example, there would be no mess ups.
5
WinespringBrother: 2003-03-19
Sorry, that s/b POD. Here is quote:
TITLE: Path of Daggers
CHAPTER: 23 - Fog of War, Storm of Battle
"Madness, my lord." A hulking Taraboner shrugged away the man who was spreading ointment down his seared left arm. The sleeve appeared to have been burned away clear to the fellow's breastplate, yet despite his burns, he did not grimace. His veil of steel mail hung by a corner from his red-plumed conical helmet, baring a hard face with thick gray mustaches that nearly hid his mouth, and his eyes were insultingly direct. "A group of Illianers, they fell on us without warning. At first, all went well. They had none of the blackcoats with them. Lord Chianmai, he led us bravely, and the . . . the woman . . . channeled lightnings. Then, just as the Illianers broke, the lightnings, they fell among us, too." He cut off with a significant look at the sul'dam.
6
Rand-althor: 2003-03-19
You were right WinespringBrother saidar was failing, in a way, during ACOS, which is assumed to be due to the bowl of the winds. Yet it begins failing again when the weevels start appearing in COT. In fact Egwene specifically says that it bothered her that so much had to be thrown away because the keepings are failing. I find it hard to believe that this reflux from the bown of the winds would lay dormant till now, then suddenly begin effecting keepings. Just my thought, but I guess it could be some long term super refux from using the Bowl.
7
scion2: 2003-03-19
there is another reason not presented forwhich the "Keepings" have not been working. there seem to be an abundance of weevels everywhere. (ie. So Habor) Perhaps the "Keeping" are actually working just fine and arew only keeping the present weevels inside. And as to the WinespringBrothers quote from PoD. I believe that the lightening that hit them was actually return fire (maybe).
8
StanLee: 2003-03-19
What everyone seems to forget about is the fact that "The Hand of the Dark" is free. Shadar Haron is basically the material manifestation of the DO. I think that the taint on saiden was because only saiden was used to seal the DO, and the "seal" was essentially like a block put on any channeler, and the taint is the DO pressing against the shield. I think that Rand broke the last seal when he cleansed saiden and now the DO is as fully manifested as possible.
The point is that with Shadar Haron free, and given the fact that before he was free he could manipulate the weather and whatnot, why can't he affect the One Power also? I think that keepings failing is more due to the fact that the DO's taint and disease is spreading everywhere. The keepings go AROUND things, and the DO can probably affect the things INSIDE a keeping, making weevels bread. Perrin had to de with weevels, and he made a comment about how unusual it was for them to be such a problem this deep into winter. I think that Saidar isn't failing, I think it's just that they need more powerful wards that are intended to do more than just keep moisture and mold out.
I don't believe that The One Power can be used up, or even affected to any degree whatsoever by using too much. I think that it will just take more than a half-assed effort to keep the DO's power at bay till the last battle.
Side note: One thing to consider, however, is the fact that Nynaeve's terangreal broke at the end of Winter's Heart, and Rands remained whole. That does lend plenty of support to saidar failing.
9
Weird Harold: 2003-03-20
Callandor
"...it doesn't seem that it would continue through 3 books, ... Another note is that in only failed in the area around were it was used and spreading out."
Rand-althor
"Saidar was failing, in a way, during ACOS, which is assumed to be due to the bowl of the winds. Yet it begins failing again when the weevils start appearing in COT. ... Just my thought, but I guess it could be some long term super reflux from using the Bowl."
I'm pretty sure that The Bad Effects of the Bowl of the Winds is done with. According to interview reports, RJ said the strangeness WinespringBrother quoted was caused by the overstressing of the Bowl, but it was a temporary effect.
Any Bad Effects from the Cleansing should also be temporary and nearly over with. Any wards reset or placed after the "sloshing" in the True Source subsides should work, or at least stay in place even if they aren't as effective.
Continuing the water analogy, the BotW caused a "whirlpool" and "treacherous currents" in the True Source. Anyone "swimming" nearby would be in danger of getting sucked under until the Whirlpool subsided. The Cleansing, OTOH, simply drew a great amount of the True Source, ran it through the "filter" of SL and returned it to the "pool;" It generated strong, deep currents but very little turbulence. "Swimmers" in the True Source would be swept downstream a bit further than expected but would not be in any real danger as long as they stayed on the surface.
Static Weaves were affected most, because they're on "auto-pilot" and can't compensate for changed in the currents. Switching analogies, the wardings are like the clock on your VCR after a brown-out -- either flashing or missing a few hours from the correct time and in need of a reset.
There IS more to the failing wards than Problems with the True Source -- The wards need to be stronger than they used to. A chicken wire fence is great for keeping one or two chickens out of your garden, but if there are more chickens that you expected or the chickens are bigger, it's not going to be strong enough. You need to upgrade your garden fence to Chain-link fencing or at least anchor the fence posts better.
10
WinespringBrother: 2003-03-20
WH, thats a good point you made about the static weaves. Are there any other examples to cite beside the keepings?
Hmmm... Liandrin's shield is static! ... If she starts channeling, that should liven things up a bit.
For example, it has never been explained (to my knowledge anyway) how Ogier Steddings block the OP. Wouldn't it be unusual if for example the force that provided that protection started failing also?
And how about the Ways and the waygates? They are basically made from permanent/tied off weaves, no?
11
Callandor: 2003-03-20
In WH, on the first page of the book in the prolouge, you can see:
**Her weave picked up the far-off chittering of rats. Light! How long since there has been rats in Tar Valon, in the Tower itself? Were they spies for the Dark One?**
Before the cleansing of the taint, and it appears quite a it before WH, weaves were already failing around Tar Valon.
12
Korell: 2003-03-26
several people mentioned the abundance of Weevils let us not forget that in the same camp as the Salidar Aeisedi that there is a forsaken hanging around hmm could Halima be allowing the weevils to get into the food....also i had a thought about So Harbor....anyone seen Fain latley what if he is somwhere in So Harbor and that he is turning it into a new Arihdol?? think about the way the people were acting not to mention Perrin recognized a smell but could not identify it and where have you ever in the books other then Shadar Legoth heard mention of somthing like a ghost? i mean i think it is a great possability that this could be a new Aridohl Fain hates the dark one and now that he has been melded with Mordeth dont you think he might want to establish a new place to "Face" the dark one and run out evil anyway thats just me there is no real proof but its a heck of alot of circumstantial evidence.
13
solomonrex: 2003-03-28
Think of the True Power used in a 'Bowl of the Winds' sense. There could be an area effect spell similar to the weather curse from earlier in the series that is causing the keepings and wardings to fail. This could also cause the ghosts to start appearing, as they once did at Aridhol.
14
A Wild One: 2003-03-28
My question is how long is temporary? Since only 83 days have elapsed since the Bowl of Winds was used and the end of CoT. Could the effects be spreading out from Ebou Dar? Could the cleansing of Saidin, which took place 59 days after the use of the Bowl of Winds, been effected by residual effects of using the Bowl of Winds? Also consider it was 27 days after the use of the Bowl of Winds that Rand & Co. battled the Seanchan near Ebou Dar and the effects were still present. So maybe the effects of using the Bowl of Winds are temporary but spreading out from the point of use, like a wave, until it finally dissipates.
15
Korell: 2003-03-29
solomonrex...i dont think that the one power has anything to do with the ghosts "IF" it is somthing like Arihdol because the making of Shadar Logoth had nothing to do with the one power so if in some way they are tied togeather the one power has no relevence as well i can not see how the ghosts would have anything to do with the OP unless they are illusions but who really knows if that were the case that could make for some interesting plot twits hmm
16
solomonrex: 2003-03-30
Korell... I said (deep voice) True Power!!! not One Power. And please punctuate. Your longer posts are so hard to read. I think the weevils and ghosts may be Moridin and TP related, I think that the OP problems are 'tide' and 'wave' related. After all, now we know the One Power can be stored in little containers. Jordan is treating it like a physical substance of some sort.
17
Dragons Shadow: 2003-04-02
well, since this has become a discussion of the "failing" of the one power, has anyone thought of the possibility of the interference caused by the interaction of two sets of waves set off by both the use of the bowl and the cleansing. each set off a series of disruptions or waves which spread out from the original point of use. these waves then began to interact with each other and causing unforseen effects. This actually reminds me of the underlying physics of the Mage Storms trilogy by Mercedes Lackey.
Another possibility is that there is a tremendous imballance in the amounts of Saidin and Saidar that have been used in the past 2000 years. this might account for the lack of problems with saidin or the pronounced problems with saidar (depending on how you look at it)
just my 2 cents at 2 am.
18
darkone: 2003-04-10
If we accept that the failing of Saidar in ACoS was due to the using of the Bowl of Winds to fix the weather, then it seems to me that we can apply a similarly simple solution to the fluctuations in Saidar in CoT. That is, they were caused by the use of the two sang'real to cleanse Saidin.
The bulk of CoT takes place simultaneous to the events at Shadar Logoth, i.e. Rand and Nynaeve using the Choedan Kal to cleanse the taint. Obviously, the level of the One Power utilized for this task was immense, far more than that used to work the Bowl of Winds. It therefore requires no great leap of deduction to conclude that it may be this use of the great sang'real that caused the "abberations" in Saidar.
19
Callandor: 2003-04-10
If thats the case then there should be much GREATER reverberations in saidin since a MUCH greater amount was used in the cleansing. **An anthill compared to Dragonmount** I beleive was the reference.
20
Weird Harold: 2003-04-12
Callandor,
The cleansing did use more of the True Source, but it also used a ter'angreal designed for that amount of use. The BotW wasn't designed for the amount of power it used.
It's like the difference between between a "Boom-box" at full volume, and a Stadium Sound system at three quarters volume. The former dosn't create as much pure volume, but the distortions full volume produces hurts the ears more than the "clean" sound of a system designd for that king of volume.
21
araqyl: 2003-04-30
Stan Lee, I think the failure of Nynaeve's link to the sa'angreal was a simple matter of power - since Rand can handle more power, his strength kept the ter'angreal safe from harm while Nynaeve's lesser power was not sufficient to buffer the ter'angreal from whatever damage there was from high-level use.
Another posssibility could be Rand's clumsy fumbling for control of Saidar through Nynaeve - he might have damaged it himself while drawing Saidar through it, and when the flow ceased the ter'angreal had nothing left to support (sorta like Rand's sword at Falme - once he started pumping Saidar through it it had greater power, but when he let go it fell apart).
