1
Tamyrlin: 2003-07-19
Moiraine as a new Hero? That would be kind of cool, and it would twist us all in knots, since I would like to see her back, alive. I don't see why the Wheel cannot create new heroes from dead souls of heroic people, and doing what Moiraine did would qualify as heroic. Moiraine coming back, through the blowing of the Horn, to save Rand at TG...fun idea, but I really hope it doesn't happen like that. :)
2
WinespringBrother: 2003-07-19
It has interesting possibilities.
Imagine if Nynaeve were running around in Tel'aran'rhiod and Moiraine showed up to give her advice or warn her.
As for a channeler being a hero, why not? It's likely that The Dragon Reborn is a hero of the horn, and he certainly channels.
3
Vaughn882: 2003-07-19
I've heard this before, and it could happen, but i seriously doubt it will. There are three reasons i doubt this: 1.We don't know of any HotH, other than Lews Therin, that can channel, and because of this I think Lews therin's soul is unique to the other HotH.
2.I still think thom will save her, because of Egwewne's viewing- how is he going to save her if she's a HotH?
3.I don't see how she can help Rand that much just as a HotH. I think Moiraine will come back before the last battle, during it she won't be much more help than any other Aes Sedai or HotH. We know Rand will fail without her, so she'll have to do something more important IMO than just fighting in Tarmon Gaidon.
4
Callandor: 2003-07-19
No.
Moriaine is NOT dead. Her bond was severed by, gee; nothing other then going into another dimension, not that she died. She's in Finnland and being held there. She will be rescued (by the boggy-man or whoever, but she will be). There are WAY too many references and forshadowings for her not to be.
And also, I dont think shes done quite enough to become a Hero. A lot, but not enough I think. Helping Rand after being rescued and taking place in the LB, and if another channeler can be tied to the Horn, then sure. But not now in my opinion.
5
Jiana: 2003-07-19
Just another point: Why would she have to be a "new" hero, if that is the case? We know that when Birgitte was spun out normally, she had no idea that she was a Hero of the Horn...
6
imfunny81: 2003-07-20
WinespringBrother
Lews Therin is actually NOT a Hero of the Horn, that is clear during Falme when Hawkwing addresses Rand... Lews Therin is a hero of the Wheel. The wheel spins him out at man's time of need... he is not connected to the horn...
I find it hard to believe that during the time that the DO's prison was open in the Age of Legends, no channeler did anything worthy of becoming a Hero of the Horn... thus the fact that no Hero of the Horn was a channeler (that was mentioned...) implies that no channeler can be a Hero of the Horn...
Next, even if Moiraine were stilled and that allowed for her to somehow become a Hero of the Horn, you'll notice that she would be completely useless... since she can only be called with the rest of the heroes of the horn and she can't channel, the two things that she had to make her a hero (her ability to channel - balefiring bel'al- and her political savvy) would not utilizable... thus Min's viewing that he would fail without her would be impossible to be true...
I think that the best reasons to believe that Moiraine isn't a hero of the horn is 1) the viewing of Thom pulling the blue stone out of the fire, 2) the Tower of Ghenjei being mentioned several times in different books in different ways - RJ is keeping it in our consciousness for a reason and 3) there's been too much mention of the only way of winning in Olver's game of snakes and foxes is to cheat, and since we haven't seen anyone defeat the snake or fox people, it sounds like it has to happen at some point... and rescuing moiraine seems like the best reason for it to happen...
7
Cambo: 2003-07-21
Callandor said: "Moriaine is NOT dead. Her bond was severed by, gee; nothing other then going into another dimension, not that she died. "
Let me think; GEE, didn't Moriaine walk through the doorway in Tear (Thus into another dimension) and manage not to sever her bond to Lan.
Sounds like your saying two plus two equals five to me..... Face it she has either snuffed it or was stilled/burnt out.
8
Jiana: 2003-07-21
But Cambo: The Tear doorway was not destroyed, thus leaving the way back open. The other doorway was destroyed, thereby cutting off any retreat from that other dimension. That, to me, makes a big difference in what happened to the bond.
9
rubbernilly: 2003-07-21
1) Rand could channel on the other side of the gateway
2) Moiraine went through the gateway in Tear without disrupting her bond to Lan
What do these two things leave us with? Moiraine must have been stilled on the other side of the gateway (probably through her struggle with Lanfear, not through any doing of the Finn). I believe that Lanfear was also stilled.
It's the only thing that seems to fit all of what we expect:
1) Lan's bond is severed
2) If Moiraine could channel, she should be able to free herself somehow
3) Lanfear *certainly* should be able to free herself - with all of her AoL knowledge of the Finn - if she could channel
4) If lanfear were artificially enhanced (see pertinent theory) by the Finn to be of higher capability in channeling, then it makes sense that if she were stilled and killed, then given a new body, it would be returned to her original channeling ability (Cyndane's very strong ability, remarked on by Graendal).
It comes down to that we expect Moiraine to be rescued. That means she's alive. She hasn't freed herself, and Lan felt the bond sever, so being alive, the only thing left to explain that is that she is stilled. We have the newfound ability to heal stilling and severing in Flynn and Nynaeve. Perhaps Moiraine will be the case study for them to realize that a man healing a woman (and vice versa) is better than a woman healing a woman (or a man healing a man).
10
Dorindha: 2003-07-21
I think it fairly likely that, if nothing else, the shock of the doorway being destroyed, and Moiraine's link to the RW, was enough to sever the warder bond.
11
Callandor: 2003-07-21
We dont know what Lan was doing when she went through the doorway weather he was checking up on things or just standing around, we have no idea. So it could be that her bond got weird then. And, yes, to me she's stilled.
Post TPOD Interview:
**Q: "Is this soul born in any other age, or only at the advent and
(theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as The
Dragon/TDR?"
A: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age. In the course of this answer, he related this to why Hawkwing calls Rand "Lews Therin" at Falme--because Hawkwing recognizes this Soul.**
The Dragon's soul IS attached to the Horn. And I don't really seem why people think it isn't. The Dragon is reborn whenever it is needed most. Its a corrective measure, which is exactly how RJ defined the Heroes in other interviews.
12
imfunny81: 2003-07-21
two things to add:
1) it seems highly likely that one of Moiraine's questions while in the doorway ter'angreal was: how am i going to die?-- clearly that's how she knew about Lanfear... what other possible question could allow her to know what happens that day? It is possible that as part of the fox/snake people ability to rifle through memories that they can somehow also hold people's souls (or smthng... i really don't know...) and so in some way, they still hold moiraine, though not corporeally... maybe someone will use the chant to make a favorable bargain w/ the fox/snake ppl and the bargain is to get moiraine back, who they find out is still there somehow or other...
2) the reason that the doorway ter'angreal melted is because two people entered it together... it broke the rules of the ter'angreal and as a result everything went crazy... from stilling moiraine (probably), to killing lanfear (probably as well, for her to come back as cyndane), to the ter'angreal melting...
13
Dorindha: 2003-07-22
Moiraine knew what would happen because she saw the different possible outcomes in the Rhuidean ter'angreal, not the doorway in Tear - she explained this to Rand in the letter she left.
14
Mizguidded Khild: 2003-07-22
Who says the Heroes of the Horn are just connected to the Horn. We know that both Gaidal and Brigette are spun out of the wheel, but they are both Heroes of the Horn. I am sure the pattern uses LTT for more than just saving the world...but thats not the point I am getting too. What if the *finns did kill Moiraine, she is a Hero of the Horn, the horn gets blown, and Mat and anyone with Mat sees Moiraine with the Heros lets Elayne, or anyone able to enter T'A'R know, Thom then talks them into ripping Moiraine out the way Brigette was, so that he may have his chance at happiness. Or while in T'A'R Cyndane sees Moiraine, rips her out as punishment for what happened when Moiraine took Cyndane (in Lanfaer form) into the land of the *finns, and Cyndane feels that is why she is in the position she is in.
15
Fade: 2003-07-22
To follow the idea that Moiraine will be rescued by Thom. isnt it possible that Thom will go through the doorway in Tear and ask them how he can save Moiraine? this is a possible theory in my opinion. thom has not been through the doorway before, and the finn's seem to know the answer to everything.
this just came to me... when rand asked how to purify saidin, wouldnt he have asked how to win TG and what he must do?
16
Callandor: 2003-07-23
1. Elayne and anybody else that can enter TAR, almost for sure have no clue how to bring a Hero into the flesh like Moggy did.
2. Lanfear claimed TAR for her own, but Moggy could do things in TAR that Lanfear could only dream of. This is most likely one of them.
17
Jiana: 2003-07-23
I may be debunking my own theory here, but what the heck. :)
I agree with Callandor, that Moghedien is likely the only one who knows how to rip someone from TAR the way she did Birgitte. The only other candidates I could think of that would even come close would be Egwene or one of the Wise Ones... but it would take them forever to figure out. Elayne probably should have asked Moghedien how she did that when they had her "by the scruff of the neck" with the a'dam.
18
Mizguidded Khild: 2003-07-23
Time and time again we have seen our little group do things the Forsaken either thought they couldn't do (heal severing, something none of the forsaken can do) or just flat out beat them with little or no real training, why should this change now? After all need is the mother of all invention, and Rand will fail without Moiraine.
19
Callandor: 2003-07-23
But why would they try it, if the precepts forbid the Heroes from talking to people in TAR?
20
Mizguidded Khild: 2003-07-23
Didn't Brigette break this rule on numerous occasions, and if I remember correctly Gaidal did once, so the precident has been set. Moiraine in life had one goal...to aid The Dragon Reborn, so as a dead hero would she not do all that she can to aid Rand. She had apparently broken many laws/traditions of the White Tower, as Suiane states that if anyone finds out the 2 of them will be stilled (paraphrased not quoted). So my question is why stop because she is dead, and a hero of the horn when she easily has more power to finish what she started in life.
21
Jiana: 2003-07-23
Just a thought, but it might have something to do with the TAR "need" thing... how if you concentrate on what you need, TAR will take you to it, so to speak. Isn't it possible that it could take someone to a Hero, or make a Hero come to them?
22
ranman38: 2003-07-23
Moiraine isn't dead. end of theory. :)
23
Mizguidded Khild: 2003-07-24
Taking someone out of TAR and bringing them into the flesh shouldn't be that hard. Rand and Egwene have both entered into TAR in the flesh, so what if they enter into TAR in the flesh, grab one of the heroes, and basically rip them out into the real world? This could easily be done with Moiraine if she is made into a hero, all that would need to happen is she focuses on her need to help Rand, and someone goes into TAR and focuses on Rand needing Moiraine...
Moiraine wouldn't even really have to be made a hero, what if Min accidentally entered TAR, began dreaming about Rand, and helping him, and dreams up Moiraine, and pulls her back to life that way.
Which brings up the question, if you dream of someone in TAR that is dead, and pull them out, would it be them or a soulless version of them, as the pattern has their soul?
24
scion2: 2003-07-25
If Moiraine is a HotH, which is one of the theories I do support, the one thing I don't get is how her meddlesome nature allow her to follow the rules in the dreamworld that Birgitte broke. As for the making of new heroes that must be possible because the heroes had to come from somewhere didn't they?
25
silverwolf: 2003-07-25
Hawking himself stated that "sometimes the wheel adds to our number" when speaking to Hurin of the heroes of the horn (TGH during the battle at Falme). Obviously, new heroes can be bound to the horn.
That said, I don't think Moiraine is dead and coming back as a hero. I don't know if she's stilled or not (recall that Rand's awareness of Alanna doesn't fade until his gateway closes in WH when he leaves Cairhien, so obviously the connection between that real world and finnland would have been enough to sustain the warder bond. However, when that connection was snapped, it most likely destroyed anything that was "in transit"--i.e.: the warder bond--much the same way that a closing gateway slices things in half. Lan would assume that, since the bond snapped, Moiraine had died.
26
Rhuark: 2003-07-29
Is the ability to channel something that is connected to a persons soul or is it something that is purely random?
If it is connected to a persons soul does that mean that all Aes Sedai and Ashaman are reborn Channelers?
If you are severed does that then mean that your soul will not carry the ability to channel when it is reborn?
I've never seen this discussed before but this thread has made me think about it. Does anyone have any answers?
27
Callandor: 2003-07-30
On the Message Boards it was discussed. General view was: If you are stilled, you can be reborn and channel, but if you burn out we don't think you will be able to (but its not really solid).
28
Shadow Bane: 2003-07-30
RJ said in an interview that it isn't either way. he wants the room to write the books either way
