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Home | Index | Archives | Help
Half the Light of the World' -> Moiraine's return
by Murrin: 2003-11-26 | 3 out of 10 (2 votes)
Previous Categories: Moiraine: Where is She Now?
We all know that Mat is going to lose an eye. In tEotW Min sees 'An eye on a balance scale' when she looks at Mat.
The loss of Mats eye seems to be related to this dream:
'Mat throwing dice with blood streaming down his face, the wide brim of his hat pulled low so she could not see his wound, while Thom Merrilin put his hand into the fire to draw out the small blue stone which now dangled on Moiraines forehead.'
The dream links Mat's eye to what most probably means Moiraine's rescue - in fact, Mat has already lost his eye (and recently, it seems) when this happens in the dream.
Min once thought that Rand 'would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone', and it is made clear she means Moiraine. Therefore, she thinks Rand can only win the Last Battle if Moiraine returns - Rand can only *save the world* if Moiraine returns. It follows that, if Mat was to give his eye to make it possible for Thom to rescue Moiraine (the dream and Min's viewing of Mat's eye on a balance scale suggest it is so), then Mat will have made it possible for Rand to win - He will have given up half the light of the world to save the world.
Repetition is one of the main clues to important story points (For an example, how many times in the early books were we told that Mat had always wanted to read 'The Travels of Jain Farstrider', but never did?), and Mat repeats fairly often his desire to find a way back to the Eelfinn and Aelfinn. The Tower of Ghenjei is one of the common theories for Moiraines rescue.
The Tower of Ghenjei is a tall pillar seemingly made of one solid piece of metal, and in tSR Birgitte said that it was a doorway 'to the realms of the Aelfinn and Eelfinn' - She says it leads to *both*, rather than just one or the other...
Of course, if Mat were to ever hear of this entryway, he would certainly want to try - he still wants payback for what they did to him, and he wants to know what the memories are.
Say he succeeds - he would have opportunity to meet with *both* species, if Birgitte's information on Ghenjei is true.
By entering through Ghenjei, after having already been there, the agreements most likely will not apply. This means the three questions and three gifts rules will not apply, but the Aelfinn will still only speak truth. If Mat meets the Aelfinn first, he may somehow learn of one thing that is absolutely necessary to the defeat of the shadow - but which he does not seem possible to achieve. He then meets the Eelfinn - and realises that they can give him what he needs. He also remembers part of what they said last time - if he wants to survive, he must set a price. The price agreed upon is his eye, and he is given what he needs. Shortly afterwards, it turns out that the deal he has made has made it possible for Thom to rescue Moiraine - which in turn means that Rand's final victory is made possible. Mat has given up half the light of the world (his eye) to save the world (by making it possible for Rand to win).
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2003-12-04
Did the finns know that Rand was going to visit them? How about Mat or any of the others? They seem to be able to divine the future. Are they holding Moiraine, because they know it will make Mat come back? How actively are they involved in the battle? I don't believe Mat will literally sell his eye, and I think it would be repetitive on my part to rant about the Thom/Mat saving Moiraine from finnland theories.
Anubis: 2003-12-04
i could imagine a conversation between mat and the finns...
F: alright, you can have moirine back in exchange for your eye
M: no
F: medal...
M (interjecting): hell no
F: ummm.... your hat?
M: i like my hat
F: your scarf?
M: hides scar
F: hmmm... money?
M: nah
F: dammit, how bout you just take her
M: shes startin to get to you isnt she?
F: ... yes
M: so what will you pay me to take her?
Arien Sedai: 2003-12-04
We know that Mat is based on Odin, from Norse mythology. Perhaps Mat sells his eye for knowledge, like Odin did (for a drink at Mimir's well which gave him knowledge of - well I forget just now, something nifty anyway). The odd thing is, Odin drank from the Well, and lost his eye, before he hung on the World Tree for nine days, unlike Mat.
Daekyras: 2003-12-05
I think this is an excellent theory. This is the first time I have seen it all connected like this. I remember reading of the vision by min and thinking that the two are connected.
Some people say that they don't believe that thom and mat will save moiraine but I think that it is made clear in this vision.
As a personal theory I also think lan will get involved.
Good work!
Zaela Sedai: 2003-12-05
"Min once thought that Rand 'would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone', and it is made clear she means Moiraine. "
Is it possinle this woman is Cadsuane? Everyone thought she was dead and gone. Min says that she needs to teach hm something before the LB. I think Moiraine is coming back, and will be useful as well. It's just a thought.
Shadar Darei: 2003-12-05
I do agree that Moiraine will return, but I see her rescue playing out slightly differently. Maybe instead of giving up his eye to save her he has to gamble with the Finns, hence the dice. The first time he loses and thus has to give up an eye. Or maybe they give him a lobotomy. Who knows?
natas: 2003-12-05
"almost" is the operative term. Rand doesn't necessarily fail, because Morianne is "gone".
Wasn't Mat going to Rhudiean, outside what the pattern held for him?
brigitta: 2003-12-08
have you ever thought that if Moiraine can be saved, Lanfear might just tag along and get out too? and if this were to happen, Mat might lose his eye to her, not the 'finns...
SDog: 2003-12-08
"Wasn't Mat going to Rhudiean, outside what the pattern held for him?"
No, it was that Mat would sidestep the "thread of fate" and dangle outside the Pattern if he did not go to Rhuidean. So it was in the Pattern for him to go--but it is implied that he had a choice in the matter.
Zaela Sedai: 2003-12-08
The problem with Lanfear tagging along is that she is most likely Cyndane, who is out free running around Randland doing Moridin's bidding right now.
Anaiyella: 2003-12-09
I think Anubis is right about this one. If the finns have Moraine captured then there ain't noway they're gonna want her to stay. :)
But seriously I think this theory has a lot of good backing behind it. I hope it ends up being right cause i think it makes sense, as well as it would add a good twist to the story.
rubbernilly: 2003-12-19
Hello all,
Back after a bit of an absence. But now back to business...
Cyndane = Lanfear. That is more than implied by her POV that we get at the cleansing of saidin.
I am surprised that no where in this theory has someone raised the issue of Mat's eye being a tie to the Dark One. Unless people do not know what I am talking about, I will not go into the theory now, but I have always seen Mat losing his eye as a choice that he must make in Finnland.
The Finn hate everything to do with the Shadow. They will discover/sense that his eye is a tie to the DO and demand either it or his life.
Remember, too, that the prophecy is that Mat would "give up" half the light of the world... that speaks of a proactive action on his part. It's not that he loses his eye, or has it taken in battle, or (probably the worst explanation I have heard yet) that he would lose it in an accident while trying to develop cannon/rocketry. He chooses to give up the eye to save something else - probably Moiraine.
Wouldn't it just be Mat's luck to seek revenge against the Finn for what they did to him before, only to have them get the better of the deal (in his mind, anyway) because he comes out of the deal with one less eye?
dragonsceptor: 2004-01-16
I'm not sure what you mean about Mat's eye being a tie to the dark one. Can you point me to the appropriate theory so I can read about it. Or provide a brief synopsis.
Callandor: 2004-01-16
The idea stems from, us (the reader) never having a POV of Mat till he is in Tar Valon in TDR. A LOT of stuff happens within the first 2 books and the opening 1/5 or so of the 3rd. So, there must be a pretty good reason for it. Some have said, Mat's POV just wasn't required or just not important till around then, but he did create the biggest situation thoughout the novels: he carried the Shadar Logoth dagger out of the city.
Also, with this in TEOTW:
**TITLE: Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 50 - Meetings at the Eye
"He guided us." The hand that pointed to Mat was old and shriveled to scarcely human, lacking a fingernail and with knuckles gnarled like knots in a piece of rope. Mat took a step back, eyes widening. "An old thing, an old friend, an old enemy. But he is not the one we seek," the green-cloaked man finished. The other man stood as if he would never speak.**
And, it is also known that Ba'alzamon (Ishamael) and Lanfear tempted Rand, Mat, and Perrin with wine, and we know Rand and Perrin felt something weird with the situation and refused.
**TITLE: Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 14 - The Stag and Lion
"You seem thirsty," the man by the fire said. "Drink." On the table was a goblet, shining gold and ornamented with rubies and amethysts. It had not been there before. He wished he could stop jumping. It was only a dream. His mouth felt like dust.
"I am, a little," he said, picking up the goblet. The man leaned forward intently, one hand on the back of a chair, watching him. The smell of spiced wine drove home to Rand just how thirsty he was, as if he had had nothing to drink in days. Have I?
With the wine halfway to his mouth, he stopped. Whispers of smoke were rising from the chairback between the man's fingers. And those eyes watched him so sharply, flickering rapidly in and out of flames.
Rand licked his lips and put the wine back on the table, untasted. "I'm not as thirsty as I thought." The man straightened abruptly, his face without expression. His disappointment could not have been more plain if he had cursed. Rand wondered what was in the wine. But that was a stupid question, of course. This was all a dream. Then why won't it stop? "What do you - want?" he demanded. "Who are you?"**
**TITLE: Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 4 - Shadows Sleeping
Perrin took a step back, keeping well in the light. "I don't think so." "At least have a drink with me. To years past and years to come. Here, you will see things more clearly after." The cup the man pushed across the table had not been there a moment before. It shone bright silver, and dark, blood-red wine filled it to the brim.
"No," he said. He spoke to the soft sound inside his head, but when the man's mouth tightened in anger, a flash of rage suppressed as soon as begun, he decided it would do for the wine as well. "I am not thirsty."**
Then Lanfear offers Perrin wine too, in the same chapter:
**"I am no hero." "You don't know the half of what you are. Of what you can be. Come, share a cup with me, to destiny and glory." There was a shining silver cup in her hand, filled with blood-red wine. "Drink."**
But what did Mat do? We know he had the same dream as Rand in TEOTW:
**TITLE: Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 15 - Strangers and Friends
"I don't know if I'll ever sleep again." Perrin sighed. "I had a bad dream, if you must know, and couldn't get back to sleep. Mat will quick enough to tell you. He laughed this morning, when I told them why I was too tired to go out with him, but he dreamed; too. I listened to him for most of the night, tossing and muttering, and you can't tell me he got a good night's sleep." He threw a thick arm across his eyes. "Light, but I'm tired. Maybe if I just stay here for an hour or two, I'll feel like getting up. Mat will never let me hear the end of it if I miss seeing Baerlon because of a dream.
Mat stared at him without blinking. "You, too?" he said finally. "And Perrin, I suppose. I almost asked him this morning, but. ...He must have. Blood and ashes! Now somebody's making us dream things. Rand, I wish nobody knew where I was."**
Then, as this theory is known most commonly as the "Dark Eye Theory", we have Rand and Mat's dream of Ba'alzamon.
**TITLE: Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 33 - The Dark Waits
When he turned back, Ba'alzamon's outstretched hand had become a fist. "You are mine, youngling, alive or dead. The Eye of the World will never serve you. I mark you as mine." His fist opened, and a ball of flame shot out. It struck Rand in the face, exploding, searing.
"My eyes! Oh, Light, My eyes! He took My eyes!"**
The "My eyes" is Mat speaking. Notice how Ba'alzamon says he marked Rand as his. There is more evidence, but I just wanted to establish a very basic base.
The main idea is that Mat accepted the wine, hence becoming an unknown agent for the Dark, and Ishamael took one of his eyes in the TAR and can use it to view what is going on around the ta'veren.
Anubis: 2004-01-16
the finns do not hate everything to do with the dark one. stop. that has never been stated, or implied or enforced, or anything. evil people can talk to the fins just like non evil people. there are rules that must be followed, and one of these rules is no questions touching the shadow. so i cant ask, what is the dark one planning....
: 2004-01-17
I have looked for the link to the theory a couple of times without luck, but I originally read it on WoTMania... it goes something like this.
What Dreams May Come
Mat, Rand, and Perrin are all having dreams as they leave the Two Rivers. We see Rand's and we see Perrin's, but we don't see Mat's. Strange, that.
In Rand and Perrin's dreams, they are offered wine by ba'alzamon, but they refuse it. The implication is clear that they are refusing Ba'alzamon by refusing the wine.
What do we know of Mat's dreams? When he wakes up in Baerlon (I think it is), he says to Rand, "He took my eyes!" Put that in the back of your head.
Groundhog Day
When Rand, Verin, Mat, Ingtar, Hurin, and the others are transported to Toman Head by Rand's use of the Portal Stone, they live their lifetimes over and over, in theoretically every iteration/variation that might be. We see this from Rand's POV, but we get insights into what the other characters see.
Ingtar, a known darkfriend, exclaims to Verin that he walks in the light. Compare that to Mat, who tries to convince Rand that he would never betray him. Interesting, did Mat see himself betray Rand over and over in all those other lives?
Spies Like Us
Moridin (I believe) says that he spies everywhere, some who even do not know that they are spies. Could this be Mat?
A couple of times, after Mat has been someplace, darkfriends or agents of the shadow know something that they should not. In example, when Mat is taking the army south to Tear (as a distraction to Sammael), Rand comes to visit him along the way. Rand Travels right to the room where Mat is, and leaves by Skimming/Traveling back. No one else other than Mat knew that Rand was there. However, the next day the rumor was all about that the Dragon Reborn had been in town. How did that theory get started? (Note: I have not confirmed this portion of the theory myself; I include it because it was part of the theory as I read it).
Conclusions, Wild Conclusions, and Statistics
Of the three main male characters, Mat is without possibility of argument the one most likely to actually have taken the wine in his dreams. Soo...
Mat accepted the wine, which was a tacet acceptance of ba'alzamon. That "he took my eyes" comment is a direct pointer to the fact that in accepting the wine, Mat allowed the DO (and perhaps Ishy) to forge a link with him. The link was his eye. The DO, and perhaps some of his higher ranking servants (those who have been given the secret) can look in on Mat from time to time and see what he sees. That makes him one of the DO's "spies" that do not know that they are spies.
More, Mat probably lost the memory of having taken the wine as part of the memory that he lost due to the dagger.
The Finn hate everything to do with the shadow. They may very well realize the link that Mat's eye is to the DO, and require it of him before anything can happen with Moiraine. Again, given the viewings by Min, the dreams by Egwene, and the Finn's prophecy, Mat must *choose* to give up his eye. He puts it on a balance scale against another choice... which I interpret to be the '1/2 the light of the world' balanced against the 'world' of the Finn's prophecy.
I think Mat is an unwilling tool of the Shadow at the moment. Once he discovers the link, that will be the impetus for him to decide he needs to get rid of the eye.
A question that I have for that time is, will this rid Mat of his luck? Does he have the DO's own luck because of this link? If so, that means that when Egwene sees Mat dicing with the DO (probably a metaphor for him taking foolhardy risks against the DO's plans), his eye is already gone... is his luck as well? Is he taking foolhardy risks with only his own luck? We will have to RAFO.
dragonsceptor: 2004-01-18
Thanks Callandor and Rubbernilly for clearing that up. It's an intersting idea. As to whether his eye being a link to the DO could be tied to his luck, I don't think so. I think that can be tied to being ta'veren. We see numerous examples of things that have a one in a million chance happening routinely around ta'veren. Do you know when Mat first started hearing the Dice rolling in his head? If that started soon after his dream that could possible help establish a link between his luck and the DO.
Callandor: 2004-01-18
**The Finn hate everything to do with the shadow. They may very well realize the link that Mat's eye is to the DO, and require it of him before anything can happen with Moiraine.**
This, I don't believe for 1 reason: Mat already went to the both sides of the Finn in TSR and didn't lose his eye. What makes this different if he go the link in TEOTW?
**Do you know when Mat first started hearing the Dice rolling in his head? If that started soon after his dream that could possible help establish a link between his luck and the DO.**
Again, the lack of POV's for Mat up till TDR, makes it hard to pinpoint if it was occuring, less imposing on Mat of course, before TDR; however the first real one is in TDR:
**TITLE: Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 52 - In Search of a Remedy
"With a laugh that made even the sullen folk in the street look at him, he headed back for The White Crescent, uncaring of mud or the damp heat. He could feel the dice tumbling inside his head.**
Deadsy: 2004-01-19
I think it started sometime in The Dragon Reborn after Lanfear visited him. It's definitely sometime in tDR.
There's a theory somewhere that she channeled at him and used the dice ter'angreal, but before she could finish whatever she was doing she heard Siuan coming so it gave him all that luck (instead of whatever she was intending). A ter'angreal in the shape of 6 dice is one of the things the black ajah supposedly took, and Lanfear definitely channeled at him in the room.
"Her hand was empty, and she stood halfway across the room, but he leaned back, away from her hand, as if she were right on top of him with a dagger. He did not know why, really, except that there was a threat in her eyes, and he was sure it was real. His skin began to tingle, and his headache returned.
Suddenly tingle and pain vanished together, and Selene's head whipped around as if listening to something beyond the walls."
Deadsy: 2004-01-19
The first mention I can find is chapter 52 of tDR
"With a laugh that made even the sullen folk in the street look at him, he headed back for The White Crescent, uncaring of mud or the damp heat. He could feel the dice tumbling inside his head."
Murrin: 2004-01-19
I am of the opinion that the thing about Mat's eye in tEotW is easily dismissed. Remember, their dreams are always identical, and the dream Rand had ended with Ba'alzamon sending a raven flying into Rand's face, pecking at his eyes. Mat had the same dream, and when he woke was saying that he'd lost his eyes... a typical reastion if he had seen the same thing Rand did.
As for being offered drinks, that was after Mat revealed himself by touching his statue and Perrin became a Wolfbrother, so only Rand had those dreams.
ranman38: 2004-01-19
from tDR Ch 37,
She had dreamed of ...Mat with dice spinning 'round him - she felt she knew where that one came from - of Mat being followed by a man who was not there - she still did not understand that; there was a man following, or maybe more than one, but in some way there was no one there...
Most will say Fain, but it says perhaps more than one. I am starting to believe that Mat will definitely knowingly or unknowingly betray Rand, but make up for it some way.
Stanzi: 2004-01-19
Mat's totally been bugged by the Great Lord. He's not evil, but yeah...his eyes do not belong soley to him anymore. Bravo.
Elder Haman: 2004-01-19
I always thought Mat's luck was due to the dagger- and that after his link with it was broken his luck seems to have become refined- that's also when the dice started up.
dragonsceptor: 2004-01-19
from Rubbernilly:
A question that I have for that time is, will this rid Mat of his luck? Does he have the DO's own luck because of this link? If so, that means that when Egwene sees Mat dicing with the DO (probably a metaphor for him taking foolhardy risks against the DO's plans), his eye is already gone... is his luck as well? Is he taking foolhardy risks with only his own luck? We will have to RAFO.
The Dragon Reborn "The First Toss"
"He knew he was lucky. He could remember always being lucky. But somehow, his memories from Edmond's Field did not show him as lucky as he had been since leaving...But it was not just since leaving the Two Rivers that he had become lucky. The luck had come once he took the dagger from Shadar Logoth."
I don't think we can tie Mat's luck to the DO because something happened in Shadar Logoth. That means it's got something to do with Mordeth. Mordeth is a different evil than the DO.
rubbernilly: 2004-01-19
**The Finn hate everything to do with the shadow. They may very well realize the link that Mat's eye is to the DO, and require it of him before anything can happen with Moiraine.**
Callandor wrote:
This, I don't believe for 1 reason: Mat already went to the both sides of the Finn in TSR and didn't lose his eye. What makes this different if he go the link in TEOTW?
They do not need to know about it... they need to discover it.
I'm not saying that they knew about it the first times that Mat visited. I am saying that on Mat's next visit they might discover it. They might find something out that gives it away... and then the game is on.
Murrin: 2004-01-20
From the Prophecies:
'Luck his soul'
The luck is a part of his soul, not something that came in this one life from a link to the Dark One. His ta'veren-ness amplified his luck to ridiculous proportions.
Anubis: 2004-01-20
rubbernilly, the one major problem with your theory other then lack of evidence is that the finns do not hate everything to do with the dark one. never has this been mentioned implied stated hinted at etc... so even if mats eye is evil the finns will not care. and why the hell would matts eye be evil?
Callandor: 2004-01-20
**They do not need to know about it... they need to discover it.
I'm not saying that they knew about it the first times that Mat visited. I am saying that on Mat's next visit they might discover it. They might find something out that gives it away... and then the game is on.**
Again, what makes it so different going to Finnland again, that they find his eye evil? He has been through the Aelfinn once, then he went through the Eelfinn; why wouldn't they pick it up if it was there for both times?
Deadsy: 2004-01-20
I don't agree with the theory about mat's eye being evil, but I think it is hinted at that they're not fond of the DO.
"Most importantly, questions touching the Shadow have dire consequences."
"If you asked about the Black Ajah, you might be returned dead, or come out a gibbering madwoman, if you came out at all."
rubbernilly: 2004-01-21
Couple of things -
Anubis: It's not my theory. I'm just parroting it here because I think that it bears discussion in this forum. As for why the eye would be evil, are you serious? If the DO were using it, or a high ranking servant of the DO, don't you think that that might tend to give pause to someone attuned to such things?
Forgot Who Said This: Someone said that we don't know that the Finn hate everything to do with the shadow. As Deadsy points out, we have the fact that they do not permit questions that touch on the shadow, but more we also have the quote where we are told that the Finn fight against the shadow almost as much as Randlanders, just in their own way. "Hating the Shadow" is just another way to say "Fight the Shadow" in my mind. Sorry you didn't come along for the ride.
Callandor, et al: There are a hundred different ways that the Finn could discover Mat's eye this time when they did not before... but it seems clear that you don't really *want* to entertain them. Nevertheless, here's a few options as I shoot from the hip:
1) A Forsaken follows Mat (and crew) into Finnland for some reason and indicate (much like at the end of tEotW) that Mat guided them; the Finn look closer at Mat and discover the eye.
2) Mat somehow gets injured on th other side and the Finn try to heal him/give him aid; in their healing they realize that something is different... perhaps something is fighting their efforts; investigating they discover the eye.
3) Probably the simplest explanation... the previous times that Mat visited his eye was not being used as a periscope on his activities. The theory proposes that the DO (or his high servants) must actively choose to view through the eye. They aren't riding in the back seat all the time. Maybe the previous times Mat made it in and out of Finnland before someone tied to the DO took a peek. This time, while he is in Finnland, Moridin or SH or someone like that jumps in just to check up on Mat and the Finn immediately recognize the difference.
Really, Callandor, you should be able to see the answer to your own question... the thing that makes this trip to Finnland different and causes the Finn to take notice of Mat's eye is - in its most general rendering - SOMETHING THAT MAKES THIS TRIP TO FINNLAND DIFFERENT AND CAUSES THE FINN TO TAKE NOTICE OF MAT'S EYE.
(repetition purposeful)
*ahem*
Whatever that different thing is (as I said, it could be a hundred different things), *that* is the trigger for the Finn investigating and/or discovering the link of Mat's eye.
Jalt Varyd: 2004-01-21
Where has it been said (in the books) that the 'finn fight the Dark One? I don't remember that; can you produce the quote?
I agree that the evidence (viewings, dreams, etc.) strongly indicates that Mat and Thom will rescue Moiraine, and that Mat will sacrifice his eye for the greater good.
Callandor: 2004-01-21
**1)**
Why? Lanfear is the only Forsaken known to go into Finnland and she was forced into going. Why should they go into there?
**2)**
Most probable, but still very unlikely. What is there to get hurt on in Finnland? The only reason Mat got hurt in the Rhuidean doorway was because they were trying to kill him! And if he gets hurt in Finnland, it would most likely be because the Finn caused it, and hence, they wouldn't try to help/Heal him.
**3)**
Ok, as far as I remember, the entire theory was that there was a link forged with Mat and whomever (DO or Ishamael) to view into his eye. Where is this link? His eye most likely. Do they create a new link everytime they look into his eye? NO! It is in him, hence WHY HE WOULD NEED TO REMOVE IT! If it is there, it is there permenantly till it is removed, hence it has been with him since before he entered BOTH doorways of the Finn.
**Callandor, et al: There are a hundred different ways that the Finn could discover Mat's eye this time when they did not before... but it seems clear that you don't really *want* to entertain them.**
1. Don't ever tell me what I do or don't think through. I do my best to take arguments from all sides, and I have taken it from this side, and it doesn't make a lick of sense.
2. I don't think Mat will go back into Finnland at all.
Anubis: 2004-01-22
but mats eye hasnt done anything evil.... and its not like the darkone can see through his eye... and evil things dont seem to respond to his eye... im just confused, it seems random.
Anubis: 2004-01-22
and i would like to see this quote that says that the fins fight the dark one... callandor?
Callandor: 2004-01-22
**TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 6 - Doorways
The Aes Sedai winced and threw up her hands. "You three rush in blindly where Lan and a hundred Warders would tread warily. Why do you think I have not stepped through? Days ago I could have asked what Rand must do to survive and triumph, how he can defeat the Forsaken and the Dark One, how he can learn to control the Power and hold off madness long enough to do what he must." She waited, hands on hips, while it sank in. None of them spoke. "There are rules," she went on, "and dangers. No one may step through more than once. Only once. You may ask three questions, but you must ask all three and hear the answers before you may leave. Frivolous questions are punished, it seems, but it also seems what may be serious for one can be frivolous coming from another. Most importantly, questions touching the Shadow have dire consequences.**
The Finn don't go fighting the DO; questions/wishes that touch the Dark have bad, unknown consequences (most likely death).
: 2004-01-22
(1) Forsaken follows Mat, zeroes in on him
Callandor responds:
Why? Lanfear is the only Forsaken known to go into Finnland and she was forced into going. Why should they go into there?
For whatever reason... any guess would be just that - a guess. Does not diminish the fact that this sort event (a Forsaken or two following Mat to Finnland) could give the Finn an indication that something is amiss.
(2) Mat gets hurt, they help
Callandor responds:
Most probable, but still very unlikely. What is there to get hurt on in Finnland? The only reason Mat got hurt in the Rhuidean doorway was because they were trying to kill him! And if he gets hurt in Finnland, it would most likely be because the Finn caused it, and hence, they wouldn't try to help/Heal him.
Finnland is a place just like any other... just as much of a chance to have an accident. As well, there are both Aelfinn and Eelfinn. Maybe one hurts, the other heals. Eh. Just as with the first brainstormed option, above,*whatever* the reason, this sort of injury could be the trigger that the Finn use to find out about the link.
*rolls eyes*
I brainstorm to come up with options, now you want me to brainstorm options for those options? Neh. The options are out there, but only as possibilities. ANY theory that attempts to render yet-to-come events with absolute specificity will fail exactly because of that specificity (unless the one making the theory is RJ himself). Still both this and the previous option still work for the reason of Finn discovery, however I thought that the third one was the best.
(3) No one happened to be using the link during the previous visits, but they do during this upcoming visit
Callandor responds:
Ok, as far as I remember, the entire theory was that there was a link forged with Mat and whomever (DO or Ishamael) to view into his eye. Where is this link? His eye most likely. Do they create a new link everytime they look into his eye? NO! It is in him, hence WHY HE WOULD NEED TO REMOVE IT! If it is there, it is there permenantly till it is removed, hence it has been with him since before he entered BOTH doorways of the Finn.
OK, if I can wade through the myriad lost antecedents in that, I think you are missing the basis of this option. I think you are saying that if it is the link itself that would cause the Finn to take notice, and since the link was there for the first two visits, they should have taken notice then. If that is what you were arguing, then you did, in fact, miss the point of this third option.
The theory that I presented was that the darkfriends capable of using the link - those capable of seeing through Mat's eye - did so only at particular times. They had to choose to activate the link, choose to ride along behind Mat's eyes, and then when they were done they had to choose to terminate their "ride-along."
Think of it this way. Put a 16th century man in a room with a radio. The radio is turned on, but no one is broadcasting. So, to him, no one else is there. Take him out of the room and ask him if anyone else was there. He'll say no. Send him in again, where - again - no one is broadcasting. When he comes out he'll say that no one was there. The third time, though, someone starts broadcasting and talking on the radio. He might not know what a radio is, but when he comes out he is going to tell you someone was there - or at least that something was different.
That's the way I'm saying it works here. This third option was predicated not on the postulation that the Finn could sense the link, but rather that they discovered the link because they could sense the fact that someone was using the link during that third visit.
Callandor, et al: There are a hundred different ways that the Finn could discover Mat's eye this time when they did not before... but it seems clear that you don't really *want* to entertain them.
Callandor responds:
1. Don't ever tell me what I do or don't think through. I do my best to take arguments from all sides, and I have taken it from this side, and it doesn't make a lick of sense.
First, chill. I was drawing an inference about the way you seemed to be unwilling to entertain the possibility of this theory - an inference that I still stand behind. Second, this is not my theory. This is me playing devil's advocate for the theory. I am trying to demonstrate its possibility. It is possible, regardless if you believe the theory or not. I don't know if I believe it, but it does answer a lot of bits and pieces that are floating out there. It may end up not being the way that things turn out. Until then, it is a possibility.
Finally, don't tell me what not to tell you. (You took that tone, so I figure I'd give it a try. Feels empowering, huh?) If you're right, I'll tell you that. But if you are being willfully thick, I'm going to tell you that, too.
rubbernilly: 2004-01-23
And I think that the quote about them fighting the Shadow in their own way came from Birgitte. I could be wrong, but I will try to find it.
Aelfinn: 2004-03-26
**There are a hundred different ways that the Finn could discover Mat's eye this time when they did not before... but it seems clear that you don't really *want* to entertain them. **
I want to hear them.
dragonsceptor: 2004-04-05
I was reading the question of the week answers by RJ and saw something interesting.
He was asked, "You stated in another interview that Mat's memories came from adventurers who traveled through the ter'angreal. However several of Mat's memories end with the adventurer dying. Since adventurers probably didn't go through the ter'angreal after they died, how could the 'finns have obtained these memories?"
The answer he gave is, "A good question. I was wondering when someone would ask that. I expected it as soon as Mat started revealing those old memories. At least a partial answer will be coming up in the next main sequence book, so I guess you could say this is a RAFO. But I will say that if I said those adventurers all entered through the two ter'angreal, I misspoke. A good many entered through the Tower of Ghenjei, which was more widely known in earlier years, if never exactly a household name."
So, why do I bring this up here? I think this is an indication that we will see Moiraine's rescue in the next book and that it will be accomplished through the Tower of Genji.
damane: 2004-10-03
If I dropped a million dollars on accident and some poor person picked it up, would you credit me for generosity?
The same thing is what you're saying for Mat. He gives up his eye to have revenge, unaware that in doing so he's allowing Thom to save Moiraine and thus save the world. The fact that the prophecy said "to" save the world, means that Mat did it exactly for that reason.
So the only alteration I would make, is for Mat and Thom to go together for the purpose of saving Moiraine (and as a bonus, Mat will get his revenge :P)
fistandantilus: 2004-10-04
I think that the Finns may have known about the link through mats eye one both previous visits. However, the first visit had nothing to do with the shadow, no mention of the Dark was made, so the Aelfinn could do nothing about it. On the second visit, when the Eelfinn tried to kill Mat as their price, they may have done that because they saw a link to the shadow, and saw mats death as a solution. Or maybe they thought that mat was smart enough to figure that if they tried to kill him, he must have done something wrong, or there was something wrong with him, which would make him look for a possible connection to the shadow. Moiraine did tell him that questions concerning the shadow have dire consequences, and from that one can infer that the Finns don't like the Dark. Obviously this didn't work, so possibly on his next visit they will resort to something more drastic(give us your eye if you want to live) to remove the lnk from him.
Taim is not Demandred: 2005-06-17
to ranman38 the people who are there but weren't are IMHO the grey men he killed while leaving tar valon.
Taim is not Demandred: 2005-06-17
also are we even sure that the foxes have the same compunction about the shadow. we have no direct proof of that. you can't ask questions to the snakes about them, but you ask no questions to the foxes. and about moiraine, both thomdril merrilin and matrim cauthon know how to break the rules and they certainly have what they need to cheat. Instruments, fire, and iron. Thom uses both instruments and fire as a gleeman and iron is not particularly hard to come by.
Traveller: 2005-07-18
I agree with this theory but it is easy to disprove because so many people have accounted for the theory by saying that Mat accepted the wine.
I think that this is easily discarded by the quote:
“...each dream was a little different, he thought. The major part of the dreams was the same, though.”
This is Rand's observation of Mat telling the dream of Ba'alzamon offering wine in their dreams in Baerlon to Thom. They all have dreams of Raven's taking their eyes:
“‘I mark you mine!” He flung out his clenched hand as if throwing something; when his fingers opened, a raven streaked at Perrin's face. Perrin screamed as the black beak pierced his left eye.”
“‘You are mine,' the raven said, and the sharp beak stabbed into his (Rand's) eye. He screamed as it plucked his eyeball out of his head.”
However, Rand and Perrin have protection. Perrin has the wolves- the morning after he dreamt of the raven:
“Perrin did not want to think about his dream. He had though that the wolves made them safe. Not complete. Accept. Full heart. Full mind. You still struggle. Only complete when you accept.(The last is the wolves speaking.)
Rand is protected by saidin as Moiraine tells him that the One Power gives protection of a sort from the Dark One.
This is how I think this theory can be proved- I had posted it as a theory, but has not got onto the site somehow.
Traveller: 2005-07-18
Oh, and I forgot to mention that I was wondering whether anyone had any ideas on who could spy through Mat's eye, because I have speculated that maybe only the DO can use it as the Forsaken would squabble too much over it, so he just tells them what they need to know. However I wondered if their was any connection between specific Forsaken and knowing stuff that Mat sees.
Anubis: 2005-07-19
the mats eye theory makes me horribly sad. if it were true matt would be dead. ishmael would be able to see through his eye, ishmael would send the gholam, ishmael would watch matt die
Ishamael: 2005-07-19
Rahvin and Moghedian certainly knew of Rand's "surprise" attack on Rahvin...the only Darkfriend we knew of that learned this secret was his Aiel gf..but she took that secret to the grave when he threw a knife at her. Perhaps they knew through Mat's eye? Aginor points at Mat in TEOTW..saying old friend..old enemy..old enemy implying his tie to Mordeth at the time..old friend could imply his betrayal to the dragon in previous cycles of the wheel. We have seens many times throughout the novels that Rand will fail without the other 2(Mat and Perrin) on his side at the Last Battle. Wether or not Mat is an unwilling spi to the Shadow...by the Last Battle he should be normal again..Rand needs him. Giving up his eye..if it is indeed evil...would definitely fufill mins viewing of giving up half the light of the world to save the world. Rand is the savior..but needs Mat...Mat gives up his eye..relinquishing his tie to the shadow so him perrin and Rand can save the world. On the other hand...an evil Mat by the end of the series would be an interesting twist...a showdown between the most powerful channeler..and the only human with some protection from channeling....lets all just keep our "eyes" open and look for more on this
Hank McCoy: 2005-07-19
No one has pointed this out: if the link was through Ishamael the Finns would not have sensed it because he died at the end of TDR. Mat does not visit the Aelfinn until chapter 15 of TSR and he visits the Eelfinn in chapter 24 of TSR. Ishamael was dead durring these instances (or was being reincarnated as Mordin). Therefore, if Ishamael is dead the link is esentially "dead" and the Finns would not sense it. Food for thought.
Zepher: 2005-07-19
Sorry, the woman that Rand needs is LTT dead wife, Ilyanna (sp?)Everything I have read points to this and I have read and reread this series about ten times now. Always open for diffrent views however...
JakOShadows: 2005-07-20
I believe it is possible that Ishmael could spy on Mat through the eye. There are enough hints to his eye in the book for circumstantial evidence, but it seems odd they haven't done more. It could be that he only wants to spy on him and not kill him; and as for the gholam, it seems that the way he works is that he is given an order then he very nearly becomes invisible until the mission is done. So he couldn't use any intelligence found after giving the order. I do believe the gholam could have his orders changed, but why would the forsaken be scared of it unless they knew they could find it and stop it.
IshaSamMoridin: 2005-07-20
*Sorry, the woman that Rand needs is LTT dead wife, Ilyanna (sp?)Everything I have read points to this and I have read and reread this series about ten times now.*
i've got to object to this. Min's POV states it as her having a viewing that rand would succeed with moiraine but almost certainly fail without her. she 'knows' that moiraine is dead, and hence the wording 'he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone'. Min has no idea that Ilyena Sunhair ever existed, even the AS know of only a few mentions of her as LTT's lover/wife. Fact is, Min does not know about Ilyena unless LTT has been muttering in Rand's sleep, and even then she would know only the name.
Zepher: 2005-07-21
I will agree that Min does not know who Ilayanna is but there were no names mentioned with her viewing. This has been an agruing point tween the wife and I so if anyone has book or chapter refrence that would be great!!
JakOShadows: 2005-07-22
Min's statement in this instance means she has some knowledge about who the person is going to be, and she definitely doesn't know who Ilyena is so I'm pretty sure its Moraine.
Fizz: 2006-10-16
Although I am quite certain (in my own mind at least) that the woman in Min's vision is Moiraine, all that is said is that she saw that Rand would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone. This does not necessarily imply that Min knows said woman. By the very nature of Min's viewings, this could possibly mean ANY woman who is dead and gone, including any darkfriends, maidens, innocent bystanders, or even Ilyena; I find this highly unlikely though, and I have found it hard to believe that Moiraine is dead, just like I find it hard to believe that Sammael is dead, simply because we never saw any body to prove the fact. But, it is possible that Min's viewing could have been of any dead woman or any woman presumed dead by Min.