oiraine a DF?(agin!)
by NargsBrood: 2005-02-14 | 1.67 out of 10 (6 votes)
Moiraine WAS a darkfriend but was no longer by the time of her disappearance. You may tell yourself, "Not another one of these!" but hear me out.
1. This suspicion was first introduced in TGH when she went on her little retreat the same time the Dark Friend Social was taking place. We saw 2 women there with great serpant rings. Later in TGH we see that the ring was on a different finger than it originally had been.
2. She knows weaves that are forbidden like baelfire. She may have connected with a past life inadvertantly in a time of GREAT need and without knowing what she was doing, figured it out on her own.
3. She knew that it was Sammael that resided in Illian. How? The prophecies werent that specific. I dont think Sammael would have introduced himself to her.
I beleive that Moiraine was a darkfriend, that she turned over to the shadow after the prequel New Spring because she began to feel that the light had no chance over the dark.
This is the same reason that the hardcore shinarean Ingtar turned over. However, I think that by the time she disappeared in TFoH, she had been turned over to the light. She may have begun to question her allegiance to the shadow at the end of TEoTW. She saw that it was possible for rand to defeat and destroy the forsaken. That the light CAN overcome the dark if the wheel wills. If she was a darkfriend, she would know that the Dark One wasnt going to be free for a while. She would know that It was a forsaken that was after Rand in TEoTW. She said "before the dark one has you" because that was who Rand and Co thought was after them. The DO himself.
This now brings us to the fact of who she was employed by. We know that she could have in no way been employed by Ishy. She was trying to keep Rand and Co. from him. She said that she would kill Rand and Co. before she let the Dark One/Balzamon/Ishy have them.
She could have been employed by Sammael which would explain how she knew that it was he that was in Illian and he set the Darkhounds after her to kill her for betraying him in not bringing rand to him. But I doubt that is the case. Why would Sammael want Rand rather than have him killed? For this same reason, i dont think Moiraine was employed by any male forsaken or she would have killed him and the story would be over.
Now, who is the female forsaken that wanted to build rand up because she knew that through him she could rule the world. Lanfear. When Moiraine turned over to the shadow, she could have been picked up by Lanfear and told to continue in her search. She could have been directed to the Two Rivers. She did find him at the same time Ishy did. She was instructed to find Rand, Guide and protect him from any other forsaken that wanted him. This would explain why she didnt kill him when she found him. She could have known that the Raven atop winespring in was sent as a spy for Ishy.
I believe that Fain was working for Ishy and Moiraine for Lanfear.
Lan doesnt know she is a darkfriend. When Rand asked him why she had disappeared, he replied that it wasnt for him or anyone to question, that she likes to take time to herself and retreat. She can mask the bond, her whereabouts/feelings. Allowing her to visit the DF meeting. She does it occasionally, by lan's comment its nothing out of the ordinary any more. She can go to darkfriend socials anytime she wants now. One of the 13 rebel sisters who fled to tear was masking her bond with her warder rather than kill him(due to pain and anguish of doing so). She let the bond slip a few times and found him trying to kill her. He didnt know she was black ajah. Why were there 2 aes sedai at the Social? 1 would have been leader of Black Ajah and the other would have been Moiraine. Black Ajah leader passes all necessary instruction down to each member. There was really only 1 person from each major place in RandLand: Seafolk, domani royal blood, children of the light, etc... They then pass all necessary instruction down to those who follow them. So, why 2 aes sedai that obviosly dont know eachother? 1 is moiraine who isnt black ajah but who has connection's to Rand and the other is the leader of Black Ajah.
Now, we may have a question:
Why was Moiraine at the DF meeting gathered by Ishy if she had opposed him prior. Wouldnt he have tried to kill her instead of giving her instructions? I believe that he didnt know that she was the Aes Sedai that was aiding Rand. Many darkfriends get snatched up by other forsaken even while employed by another. It is possible she received a summons she could not refuse. By this time though, she had already begun to shift back over to the light and her orders were ignored. Ingtar wasnt in the service of Ishy until after TEoTW. Otherwise he would have played a bigger opposing part in book #1. Ishy thought that Rand and Co were going to Tar Valon. He didnt need agents in Fal Dara yet. Another point of view is that according to Ishy when rand talks to him at the end of book #1 is that EVERYTHING went according to his plan. Why kill moiraine if she only played into his plan? Plan went wrong though, take her up since she has connections with rand.
She knew baelfire. Probably taught by Lanfear to use when in dire need. She was taught the affects it would have on the patern in reversing time so to say. If anything did happen to rand, she could have still undone it by using baelfire. When the need is great enough, the forsaken have been known to teach weaves to the "children".
I believe that it was possible for moiraine to have been a darkfriend(not necessarily BA). I believe the clues layed down in TGH were meant to give us the suspicion that would later be battered down and then turn out to be true. It is definately like RJ to do something like this. And Moiraine being turned back over to the light would definately
explain her POVs. In book 1 when Nyn overhears moiraine talking about rand we feel we learn her true intention. It's as good as a POV. Maybe Lanfear's plan is to defeat DO with rand at the last battle. With the CK she knew it was possible. Thus moiraines strong conviction in helping rand to the last battle. We've seen another aes sedai with a conviction to help rand for a smiliar reason. Help rand to last battle so the DO could defeat rand.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2005-02-23
(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
I suppose that with enough ephemeral evidence, you could prove that Bela is a darkfriend. 'Course you need a hefty dose of ignoring the concrete evidence as well.
You've listed references from the books and interpreted them. Can't say i agree with *any* of your interpretations, but that has nothing to do with it.
2
Yaga Shura: 2005-02-23
You claim Moiraine was working for Lanfear or Sammael but began to turn away from the Shadow after Rand beat Ba'alzamon and Aginor at the end of TEoTW. However,at the end of TEoTW, both Sammael and Lanfear were still bound by the seals. TEoTW, ch.50 pg.748(pb)"Like Ishamael, we [Aginor and Belthamel] walk the world again, and soon the rest of us[the Forsaken] will come."
There is no reason to suppose that the two Aes Sedai don't know each other, as the POV is not theirs and the DF's don't exactly have a cosy little chat while being summoned. Also, you say that there is "only really 1 person from each major place in Randland" but Bors himself says "a hundred black masks and a hundred pairs of eyes" (The Great Hunt, Prologue, In The Shadow). I don't know that this proves or disproves anything, but at least it shows you made a mistake.
Ishamael doesn't do a lot of direct opposition in TEoTW because he thinks Rand and the others are all too lame to oppose him. Which, in truth, they are, other than saying "no" a lot.
The two Aes Sedai at the meeting could be anyone; there is no description given, except the colour of their clothes (black):-). Not even heights or skin tone, and so it is totally inconclusive.
When she was in Illian, she went off and found out that it was Sammael, she didn't just know. And she didn't mask the bond either, or Lan would surely have remarked on it. Lan is a relatively smart guy, so he would surely start to twig if Moiraine was disguising her whereabouts from even him right after she went off to find one of the Forsaken.
Lastly, you claim that Moiraine legged it off to a DF meeting when she was off on her research retreat. Presumably, you are referring to the time she spent with Vandene and Aldelas, when, uh... Lan was there. And if you are rferring to the meeting at the start of TGH, then she was in Fal Dara at the time. I admit it's possible that somehow she was taken to the meeting and then sent back, but I don't buy it. Too complex, too risky. Never going to work for long. Lan might not wonder if Moiraine says: "I'm going away for a while. Don't follow me." But subsequent POV's from Alviarin show that DF's only get about ten seconds notice. Too suspicioius.
3
mako0424: 2005-02-23
i like the idea of so controversial a topic, but thats pushing it badly.
I was under the impression that we did find out for sure that Liandrin was one of the Aes Sedai at the meeting later from her POV. And if so, i can safely assume that your right, the othetr Aes Sedai present was the leader of the surpreme council, Alviarhin.
And again, Moiraine killed alot of bad guys, inlcuding like three Forsaken.
And lastly, alot of the Forsaken and and Darkfriends have remarked that once your soul is pledged to the Dark One he won't let you go so easily, i was under the impression that its impossible to turn back, or that they get killed trying. I dont think she could so easily decide to turn.
4
Aiel Finn: 2005-02-24
Since when is knowing "forbidden" weaves make you a DF? Nearly every sister has her little tricks, many of them forbidden (compulsion). I know that BF is a much more than a little trick, but remember that there are things in the tower library that noone knows about, there are also ter'angreal that make BF. If she didn't learn it from one of these, and didn't learn it from another sister, she still could have had one of those "just knowing it at the right time" moments when she needed to save herself. She's been out of the tower more almost the entire time since her raising. In all this time, especially if she would have been going up against BA, she probably would have had a few times when she would have needed BF. She's been in the Blight a couple of times too (visiting the Green Man as such). All this points to her learning BF for her own uses.
5
bigjellybeans: 2005-02-24
1. If Moiraine was a DF, why would she take Rand and co out of the two rivers when she could have easily had her way with them there with the trollocs?
2. then of all places why would she have had them taken to TV which was her original destination? Yes there are black sisters in there but it would have made her intentions much more difficult.
3 Why would she also have tried to stop the first of the loose forsaken at the eye of the world?
6
NargsBrood: 2005-02-26
i posted this a long time ago and have since then posted it on the message board. it has already been discussed to the point that the discussion is over. if you would like to see the arguments, please check out the board.
7
Korell: 2005-03-01
Just out of curiosity has anyone ever come up with a. Moiraine was at the DF social however she is not a DF? Perhaps a double agent of some sorts She really works for the light but pretends to be working for the shadow. This would give her the oppurtunity to infiltrate the social. Just a thought with no real basis but hey i could probly make a bunch of quotes to make a argument for it. anyone interested?
8
Yaga Shura: 2005-03-05
"Just out of curiosity has anyone ever come up with a. Moiraine was at the DF social however she is not a DF?"
How would she get to the DF social? The two current theories are that that place was either TAR or it was somewhere requiring Travelling to reach. I doubt you could just get a "fake ID" to say you were a DF, and it would be nearly impossible for Moiraine to reach the DF social.
9
Korell: 2005-03-06
I realize there is no substansiation for it i was just saying that there is a possability she could be playing a double agent roll and i am not say just for that purpose i am talking long time infiltration she does know alot about the shadow. I am not saying i belive this i was just speculating a possability of where she went. Personally i think she was probaly off somwhere getting information.
10
LeafBlighter: 2006-05-24
If she was a darkfriend, answer me this question. when she saw rand and knew he channeled in book 1, why exactly didnt she kill him with some saidar? he was practically stumbling blindly through everything and only killed balthamen and aginor through chance. if she was a DF, once she found the dragon banner and gave rand it, she would have instantly killed it. Also, why did she kill the dude at tear(forgot forsakens name) with baelfire? too many actions that says she isnt i say shes not
11
Myrelle Sedai: 2006-12-28
I don't think Moiraine is a DF, she killed 2 Forsaken, but I would like 2 know how she learned BF.And, how did she recognize Sammeal? I can understand her knowing it was one of the forsaken in Illian, but how would she know which one? How could she have known it was Sammael, not Rahvin or one of the others?
12
vardene: 2006-12-29
Myrelle, moiraine had a blue stone she used for evesdropping. it's probably the source of most of her information. I dont know it requires channeling precisely. When she left illian she used balefire on the grayhounds. Perhaps she was planning to do to sammy what Belal eventually got.
13
Myrelle Sedai: 2006-12-31
*Myrelle, moiraine had a blue stone she used for evesdropping. it's probably the source of most of her information. I dont know it requires channeling precisely.*
She uses it as a focas point. it's not the source of her information, at the start of TGH when she's summened 2 the Amyrlin, she thinks about it and I remember her thinking that the stone was just a stone with no powers. The source of her information is herself.
14
Callandor: 2006-12-31
**Myrelle, moiraine had a blue stone she used for evesdropping. it's probably the source of most of her information. I dont know it requires channeling precisely. When she left illian she used balefire on the grayhounds. Perhaps she was planning to do to sammy what Belal eventually got.**
Moiraine didn't use it to eavesdrop -- it was just a device to aid concentration, much like her staff:
**TITLE: Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 18 - The Caemlyn Road
Moiraine made a clicking sound: "I have told you, child, things do not have power. The One Power comes from the True Source, and only a living mind can wield it. This is not even an angreal, merely an aid to concentration." Wearily she slid the staff back under her girth strap. "Lan?"**
Moiraine knew the eavesdropping weave, and, if you want to put terms to it, seems to have a block when it comes to using it that the blue stone circumvents for her.
But, yes, that's definitly a candidate for much of her information.
15
Davian93: 2007-01-01
****but I would like 2 know how she learned BF.And, how did she recognize Sammeal? I can understand her knowing it was one of the forsaken in Illian, but how would she know which one? How could she have known it was Sammael, not Rahvin or one of the others? ****
A couple of possibilities for your answers. Balefire is the more likely to be explained. Moiraine is a fairly powerful channeler and we've seen demonstrated on numerous occasions that powerful channelers rediscover lost weaves with disturbing easyiness. For example, see Rand and the Wonder girls or more specifically Nynaeve using Balefire against the Fades in TDR. As for her knowing it was Sammael, I would attribute this to several possibilities. First, she has been hunting the Dragon Reborn for 20 years. In those 20 years she has probably studied every scrap in every library that has anything to do with the Dragon, Forsaken, Dark One, Last Battle etc in an effort to be better prepared for helping and finding Rand. Also, she had just recently asked Adelas and her sister about a variety of topics to include anything they knew on the Forsaken. Perhaps she knew something of what he looked like, or maybe she eavesdropped into his Palace and heard his name used or perhaps she recognized his style of Rule from some scrap she had once read. These explanations are far more likely than Moiraine being a DF.
16
maharbry: 2007-01-02
I'm not sure whether this has been mentioned or not but couldn't it be possible that in tGH Moiraine could have been responsible for the "wind" on top of the tower in Fal Dara? The one where Rand and Lan are practicing with the practice swords.
**The Great Hunt
Chapter One: The Flame of Tar Valon
The wind howled across the tower... and trapped him. It was as if the air had suddenly jelled, holding him in a cocoon. Pushing him forward. Time and motion slowed; horrified, he watched Lan's practice sword drift toward his chest. Therew was nothing slow or soft about the impact. His ribs creaked as if he had been struck with a hammer. He grunted, but the wind would not allow him to give way; it still carried him forward, instead. The lathes of Lan's practice sword flexed and bent-- ever so slowly it seemed to Rand-- then shattered, sharp points oozing toward his heart, jagged lathes piercing his skin.**
I'm not very active around here and I don't personally believe this theory, but I do think it very interesting that this sounds an awful lot like the description of how Aes Sedai sometimes use air. After that happens, Lan says "Strange things happen this close to the Blight." But what if it wasn't coincidence? There were no other AS in Fal Dara at that point (that we know of) which leaves 3 possibilities.
1. Female channeler
If Moiraine were a DF she would probably be quite worried that he just destroyed more than one forsaken on his own. She would have known without a doubt that Rand was the Dragon by now. That fear could have led her to try killing him on her own. She also knew at this point that she probably couldn't best him if she tried to face him head to head. Or at least she was too scared to try after what happened at the end of tEotW.
2. Male channeler
Highly doubtful for two reasons. First is that Balthamel, Aginor, and B'A are, according to them, the only forsaken outside the seal, so it is very doubtful that there would be another forsaken loose that they dont know about. Secondly, Rand has already touched Saidin more than once so it seems like he would feel something had it been a male channeler. Not to mention a male channeler would have likely used a much more direct method of death.
3. Pure Coincidence/The Blight
The most likely explanation in my book, but I love WoT conspiracy theories.
17
Myrelle Sedai: 2007-01-04
* I'm not sure whether this has been mentioned or not but couldn't it be possible that in tGH Moiraine could have been responsible for the "wind" on top of the tower in Fal Dara? The one where Rand and Lan are practicing with the practice swords.*
I've thought of this before, and it doesn't make sense. Why would Moiraine send Wind at Rand? To kill him? I can think of far easier ways. To injure him? Why?
I do think that it was probably caused by Aes Sedai, but why Moiraine?
If it was Moiraine, then that would explain why Lan acted weird about it, though...
I'll have 2 reread TGH.
18
Callandor: 2007-01-04
**I'm not sure whether this has been mentioned or not but couldn't it be possible that in tGH Moiraine could have been responsible for the "wind" on top of the tower in Fal Dara?**
No, Jordan has confirmed it was an early bubble of evil. From his blog (posted 10/6/05):
**For Phil Reborn, the wind that makes Rand almost impale himself on Lan’s practice sword was one of the first bubbles of evil. A tiny one, but still dangerous.**
19
Catalyst: 2007-01-06
Against the main theory.
1. WTF?!?
2. Balefire is a weave that can be learned. If you fervently need to destroy something. Rand himself learned it that way.
3. It is known that strong channelers who don't shield their dreams can force their dreams on others. Read again TDR. That innkeeper in Illian told Moiraine of these strange dreams she has of Tel Janin a.k.a. "Sammael", "Lord Brend" Aellinsar.
Also read TSR again. Somewhere in Moiraine's POV she says "I'll not let you turn to the Shadow."
Also read New Spring. She and Siuan Sanche begin the search of the Dragon Reborn. And Moiraine KILLS a BLACK sister.
Also listen to "Imperium". The song is performed by Machine Head. Rock for a while, think again on this theory and if you still think that Moiraine is a DF, I'll be buried in the Can Breat.
20
Myrelle Sedai: 2007-01-07
Rand was a wilder. he didn't know what he was doing most of the time, and he laerned stuff from LTT. Moiraine had been Aes Sedai for 20 years, and was fully trained. So, what's the chances of her suddenly learning a new weave? The Forsaken were sealed inside the Bore and were relaesed when the seals waekened. There were no pictures of the Forsaken left over from the Breaking. So, I can understand that Mioraine knew that ONE of the Forsaken ruled Illian, but not WHICH one.