1
Tamyrlin: 2005-05-20
The tackle...I don't know. Was Jordan just writing an intense scene to mastermind Moiraine's dissappearance, or was there something more to it? Good question, the most compelling of your theory. Why not push her through? Well, she probably saw Lanfear come back through the doorway. So, the tackle probably had everything to do with what she saw would happen; the doorway burn, trapping them on the other side. Second of all, why not balefire her? Another good question. She had enough power to do so, suggesting, if Jordan did this with purpose, that Lanfear's life is integral to Rand winning. In other words, the only way for Rand to succeed was to go through with Lanfear, with the an'greal, and possibly do something on the other side of the doorway. Likely, she saw if she didn't release Lan, he would have killed himself trying to rescue her...good questions sarutobi.
2
dedoublya: 2005-05-20
Why is it obvious to everyone in the books that she's dead? Wouldn't going through the burning door just mean that they're trapped on the other side. It's not even the only way in. There's that tower thing, most of the characters don't know about it, but we do.
3
Merk: 2005-05-20
First, a disclaimer: I think she's alive. But I just wanted to point out one of your points doesn't really fly. She doesn't say "I know who my husband will be." Reread how she says it and you will see that she says it in typical Aes Sedai fashion, where she seems to be saying one thing but it could be taken several different ways. The way she said it, she wouldn't have to ever get married, because she said it as a comparative thing. I don't have the quote right now but trust me, you'll see if you look it up.
4
haertchen: 2005-05-20
I think the really main reason everyone assumed that Moiraine was dead was because Lan's bond was broken, and Lan immediately assumed that meant she was dead.
As we know well now, though, if Moiraine was stilled, the bond would have also broken. As a trillion people have also mentioned, the link between the worlds breaking may also have been enough.
Thus we, and Rand et al, now know that the bond breaking doesn't necessarily mean she's dead. At the time, though, it seemed pretty sure she was dead. With the bond evidence being discounted, though, the idea that she's dead becomes *much* shakier. There is no body. The number of scenarios that could have happened on the other side of the doorway is huge, amplified by our almost complete ignorance of how the finns typically behave. These last few points are the reason why this issue has lasted as long as it has, as well as connecting in to unrelated ideas (*cough* Asmodean).
5
ssjx7squall: 2005-05-20
You know i fully agree with you man. I have never beleived that she was dead. To me like the other guy said all they did was go through the door, it didnt mean they died. Some nice evidence you showed to i completely foregor about a few of those.
6
Callandor: 2005-05-21
**If she knew her future was to die through the ter'angreal then her bonds as an Aes Sedai make her not able to say she knew here future husband since she could have no future husband.**
At the time Moiraine said this, she had not yet gone through the ter'angreal nor the Aelfinn doorway. However, she could still know the face of her future husband, by a Viewing from Min.
**First why tackle her through in the first place? She was behind Lanfear and She was paying no attention to Moraine. Couldn't she have easily just balefired her?**
Once Moiraine embraced the Source, Lanfear turned toward her. Most likely, Moiraine simply would not have had the time to weave balefire, without an attack by Lanfear beforehand. Lanfear being much stronger, and an added angreal, along with much, MUCH, more experience in the channeling department isn't so good for Moiraine.
**As far as I know its not possible to stop it so if she could get it off, which in my opinion she very easily could have, Lanfear would have been worse than dead.**
Well, it can be dodged (physically) and "forked" (or split whatever you want to call it), but that only seems to happen if the One Power is directed into the weave of balefire, and it also seems to be quite a special event.
**And if worst came to worst she would have at least been able to distract or shield her.**
Lanfear was holding on to saidar at the time, so Moiraine would've had to be quite stronger than her to shield her -- she obviously wasn't.
**Ok then even if she was dead set on tackling her through the doorway why did she embrace the source first?**
Good question.
**Also why tackle her through the doorway couldn't she have just as easily pushed her through?**
Most likely explaination -- because she saw herself do it in the ter'angreal in Rhuidean. Other than that, I really can only say that maybe she didn't think there would be enough force, and that's a terribly weak motive.
**Perhaps Lanfear had been through the doorway before and the only way moraine could get her through was to make a physical connection with someone who's never been through and go.**
Yes! ~cough cough~ Um, excuse me.... :) (Yes, yes, yes!)
**The way she said it, she wouldn't have to ever get married, because she said it as a comparative thing.**
**TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 6 - Doorways
"The slender woman was not at all taken aback. For a long moment she looked levelly at the pair of them, each with an arm around the other. Finally, she said, *"I could wager I know the face of the man I will marry better than either of you knows that of your future husband,"* Egwene gaped in surprise.**
Major point here: she does say "will marry" not "would marry" heavily implying that she does know who and that she will eventually marry.
**To me like the other guy said all they did was go through the door, it didnt mean they died.**
A very important fact to point out: no one -- no one -- that we have met that has gone to Finnland, has died upon entering. Granted, the situation with the doorway melting is quite unique, but it's a nice fact to know.
7
NargsBrood: 2005-05-21
Quote:
"One more little thing is that she always said she knew the face of her future husband. Perhaps she just knew the only man she would ever love but maybe not. If she knew her future was to die through the ter'angreal then her bonds as an Aes Sedai make her not able to say she knew here future husband since she could have no future husband."
Moiraine only ever said that before she ever went to finnland or through the rings at rhuidean. I think she found it out from min when min saw her with a certain person.... *cough* *cough* *cough-thom-cough*
8
flayer: 2005-05-22
ok, moiriane is alive and well ... how did lanfear die and become Cyndane?
-Winter's Heart-Pg663-
*... she would have faced the great lord - faced the creator! - with him.
9
Callandor: 2005-05-23
**ok, moiriane is alive and well ... how did lanfear die and become Cyndane?**
First prove that Lanfear died. You're quote does not show that.
10
logains glory: 2005-05-23
**First why tackle her through in the first place? She was behind Lanfear and She was paying no attention to Moraine. Couldn't she have easily just balefired her?**
Moirane probably just doesn't want to use balefire if it is not necessary. Remember, she has warned Rand more than once about the consequences of using it. To eliminate a thread as influential in the world as Lanfear was, is, and may yet be could be disasterous.
**Ok then even if she was dead set on tackling her through the doorway why did she embrace the source first?**
Why not embrace the source? The source is Moirane's strongest weapons and defense. Just because she didn't channel anything when she tackled her doesn't mean that it didn't cross her mind that she might need it after they went through the door way. If you hear a noise in your house are you going to check it out unarmed or are you going to grab a weapon? We know that Moirane saw in the rings that she would go through the doorway with Lanfear but perhaps what lay beyond the doorway was still an uncertainty and she felt she may need the source if it was still available to her.
11
free will: 2005-05-23
First I think the evidence that Morraine is gone rather than dead is quite strong. But I'd like to point out about the Wise One trainee visions in Rhuidean about your possible futures. Every single possible future ended at the showdown. But if the range of the visions is only in the regular plane, then that doesn't involve death, just permanent goneness. Moraine is gone, and she won't come back ever. So Thom is leaving too. If Thom can be gone, then why not Rand? If Min's visions extend to other places by showing the one future of a single person, and the Wise One thing shows possible futures in the one plane, then Moraine knows that she will marry Thom, and hence is alive but gone.
What if Rand has to leave to seal the bore, fight the DO. What if TG is the world's biggest distraction (and actually happen "off set" since RJ can't possibly discribe it) whose sole purpose is to keep Rand away from Moraine in the other place where he needs to be?
I think Moraine is key to the victory over the Shadow, and figuring that out, will help us figure out what is going on.
I like the question about why embrace, which could just be to make Lanfear turn around in time, thus saving Rand. But why tackle? Could be because Lanfear has been through before, but also it could all just be that embracing and tackling and going for the angreal is enough to take Lanfear by surprise to get them both through the doorway, without Lanfear stopping it.
So why take Lanfear through when she ends up back (not gone) anyway? Either Rand wasn't going to survive much longer against Lanfear, or Lanfear is involved in something. Again I think understanding the LB is key, so what if Lanfear is involved in that? Like if she bores another hole in Finn land to bring the DO to them to create a vaccuum low pressure to help Rand patch it up in their world.
I personally like the irony of Lanfear "saving the world" by boring another hole to the DO. And for Padan Fain lovers, if Rand and Lanfear and Thom and Perrin and Mat all go after Moraine then surely PF will follow, so if he's the next DO, maybe Lanfear is needed to get that weak spot just right. The DO wasn't remember in the AoL, well even today PF is little known. If the key to creation is to wrap a pattern around an evil being, to create the balance to drive a creation full of foodness, the PF could be the center point.
I always imagined the DO in the center of a giant surface of a sphere called the pattern (remember that the DO is equally close to all locations, SG is just where the pattern is thinest. I always that the DO lied (father if lies?) about immortality and such and that when free the pattern would unravel, he'd just become unbound, like the creator is unbound. If the Finns can give that capstone, the imagine a ballon around the DO with a hole, you twist it inside out and plug the hole so that the balloon is around PF instead of the DO and all sealed nicely. I sometimes imagine an ending like that too.
12
Merk: 2005-05-23
Even if we can be sure Lanfear died, it doesn't prove a whole lot about Moiraine because we don't know enough about how Finnland works. Suppose she died going through the doorway. That doesn't necessarily mean Moiraine died going through the doorway. Furthermore, we can assume she didn't die right away, because in a later Lanfear POV she thinks about how they held her. So it would seem if she died, she was held for a time, then died somehow. It wasn't instant death, there were some sort of dealings with the Finns before she died. That introduces even more unknowns. We couldn't assume from that that Moiraine died by the same rules, because we don't know why Lanfear died. There's just too many unknowns through that doorway.
13
Callandor: 2005-05-24
**We couldn't assume from that that Moiraine died by the same rules, because we don't know why Lanfear died.**
More to the point, we do not know that she ~did~ die.
14
drunkensalarr: 2005-05-24
As one who is in the process of re-reading the series (both by myself, currently at LOC, and aloud with my wife as she reads it the first time, in TSR) I would like to point out some things I noticed this past read-through of that section.
One of the stongest arguments for Moiraine not being dead is that in TSR she tells Thom, with a great degree of certainty that she will see him again and that he will survive Tarabon. This was right after she had gone through the Snake Doorway.
As for why Moiraine channeled and tackled, rather than simply doing one or the other? Lanfear was holding an angreal, and Moiraine was trying to get it from her (rip it out of her hands) and use it herself (the only sure-fire way to know that Lanfear is no-longer using it). Depending on how much of the OP she was using at this time, it does have the possibility of burning out Lanfear (this may also account for Lanfear's lessened ability later).
As for why not balefire? the best possible reason I can see is that as Moiraine knew about Asmo. she may well know that that was due to something done by Lanfear. She may possibly know that putting too much power into the balefire has the possibilty of undoing that dam Lanfear put on Asmo, as well as undo the things he has taught Rand.
15
dedoublya: 2005-05-24
Ok, to not describe TG would be a massive anti-climax. I'm not saying it can't happen by the way.
I always hated it when Tolkien would have one of his main characters knocked out in the middle of a battle.
16
sarutobi: 2005-05-24
Well If lanfear was burned out then she came back she wouldnt be weaker. TO my knowledge if you are burned out you cant be healed in any way. YOu cant even sense the source any longer, it is just as if you could never channel.
17
JakOShadows: 2005-05-24
Those are good points drunkensalarr. She would have to use the power to take control of the angreal. I just wonder how if Lanfear was burned out, how would she be able to use the one power. The forsaken/DO don't know how to heal being stilled or burned out, so you would need evidence of it. But I do think it is possible by some other means. And once we meet up with Moraine again, if we ever do, that would help figure out what happened.
18
Merk: 2005-05-24
Callandor:
///More to the point, we do not know that she ~did~ die.////
Right, you just said that, and asked somebody if they could prove Lanfear died. As my comment said, even if he could prove that...etc. etc. If Lanfear died...etc. etc. Re-read my post and you'll see I'm not taking it for granted that Lanfear died, I'm just saying that whether she did or not does not necessarily tell us anything about whether Moiraine died. Like I said, *if* Lanfear died, it would seem likely it came *after* being held by the Finns, and *if* that is true, going through the doorway like they did wasn't instant death.
19
Anubis: 2005-05-24
**As for why not balefire? the best possible reason I can see is that as Moiraine knew about Asmo. she may well know that that was due to something done by Lanfear. She may possibly know that putting too much power into the balefire has the possibilty of undoing that dam Lanfear put on Asmo, as well as undo the things he has taught Rand.**
Rands uber full power Balefire + an Angreal knocked time back a few hours at the most. Moirine is on one hell of a power trip if she thinks she can affect events weeks or even months ago. Moiraine didnt balefire because for some reason she thought it would be a bad idea. Either Lanfear could sense and counter it, or Lanfear needed to live, or Moiraine needed to vanish. Or a combo of the three really.
20
Callandor: 2005-05-24
**Depending on how much of the OP she was using at this time, it does have the possibility of burning out Lanfear (this may also account for Lanfear's lessened ability later).**
It doesn't.
1. There is a way of Healing ~severing~ (stilling and gentling are of course the same thing different sexes), not burning out. While they may seem like one is on purpose and one is an accident, and they are technically, burning out does seem to have added effects that most likely would make it unable to be Healed (and we have to go on that viewpoint, until it's at least attempted before guessing at it).
2. If Lanfear was stilled (instead of burned out), then she would've have to had been Healed by a woman (or by someone else who "botched" the weave if you follow that lunacy theory) who knew the weave. Who would do that? Black Ajah and Forsaken are the only means.
There is no one who posseses both knowledge of what to do, and the abilty to do it. Semirhage is the most obvious choice, because she is probably the best Healer alive -- she would kill Lanfear if she came to her weak, let alone unable to channel. You might say under orders from the Dark One, but then you must account for Semirhage's sadism, how she knows the weave, and how she got away from the Seanchan culture while more than likely on a boat.
Ishamael/Moridin knows ~about~ the ability to Heal severing, but he does not know the weave because he knows that Aes Sedai know it and he of course cannot detect female channeling (as well as knowing it in TPOD, as far as we can tell, instead of before chapter 25 of ACOS).
One of the Black Ajah in Salidar might know it, but we only know of Delana being Black, and she has certainly never had the time to leave Salidar to go either Heal a Forsaken (IIRC, she also doesn't posses much Talent with Healing, nor the apparent strength it takes) or to show the weave to a Forsaken. Assuming there is another Black Ajah in Salidar is, of course, baseless.
There just isn't a person with the correct "qualifications" so to speak, to perform the Healing, if it was necessary.
21
minalth: 2005-05-25
Being burned out May only affect the body, we know that it can affect the surroundings (dragonmount, menatheren, others can also be stilled, etc.)
when lanfear was reborn, she got a new body , and so could channel again. The body , though , was not as good at channelling as her sole, explaining her reduced ability.
and you never know, she might still be alive and cyndane (sp i know) could be someone completely different
22
Merk: 2005-05-25
///and you never know, she might still be alive and cyndane (sp i know) could be someone completely different///
No, we know Cyndane = Lanfear = Cyndane.
23
Frenzy: 2005-05-26
Why the tackle? Because Moiraine is bound by the Three Oaths. She can tackle Lanfear, but unless Lanfear directly threatens her first Moiraine can't channel at her. Moiraine knows her limits, and getting tackled by an Aes Sedai, even a child in Lanfear's eyes, would have enough of a surprise factor to give it a ghost of a chance. Binding with Air or attempting to Shield or even something lethal would give Lanfear enough time to react. If that happened, Moiraine would be neutralized, and Rand would still be under attack and locked in his spineless self-induced quandry.
Prove Lanfear died? Can't be done. But you prove to me that another transmigration occured from live body to live body. :p
24
JakOShadows: 2005-05-26
Callandor: Thank's for the evidence. I do agree with you there. There is just feels like there is something we are all missing. Because why would the DO give Lanfear a body that couldn't handle as much of the one source as she could. It could be seen as another form of punishment, but isn't a mindtrap already doing that. In my opinion, when Moraine comes back we will find out what really happened and get a better explanation, but for now there too much information we are unsure about.
25
Callandor: 2005-05-27
**But you prove to me that another transmigration occured from live body to live body.**
Why should I, when I don't believe that is what happened?
26
Anubis: 2005-05-27
I dont think the body has anything to do with the ability to channel. Lanfear says that Alivia was stronger then she before the Finns had held her. This strongly implies that the Finns holding her was what diminished her strength. Perhaps a price? If it had been a result of a rebirth the line would have been something like, she was stronger then Cyndane had been before her rebirth.
27
Tamyrlin: 2005-05-28
Anubis said, "I dont think the body has anything to do with the ability to channel." It does. The body is key to channeling. In fact, the maturation process and natural born channelers compared to learners demonstrates the connection the body has to channeling. Also, stilling, shielding, and burning out demonstrates that same connection. I can be more explicit, I have in the past, I wish I could find the explanation...I'm just lazy.
28
Merk: 2005-05-28
Please elaborate Tamyrlin. Sounds interesting but not sure I'm following.
29
MatCauthon: 2005-05-28
If the ability to channel depends on the body, how can Aran'gar be explained? A woman that can channel as a man. This seems to prove that the soul matters, not the body.
30
Tamyrlin: 2005-05-29
To Merk, and in response to Mat Cauthon. Regarding Aran'gar, the soul determines the type of power channeled. In other words, there are male and female souls, and those souls are connected to the OP, always (some interpret burning out, to also burn out the connection from soul to OP). So, yes, MatCauthon, Aran'gar proves the soul determines the type of power being channeled, however, the body must be capable of channeling, for the individual to channel. As I mentioned, the first example is maturation. A sparker, natural born channeler, like Egwene, will channel no matter what, because that individual's soul is born connected to the OP. Without warning, once the body matures to a point, that individual will channel no matter if she wants to or not. Why can't that person channel at age 5? Why doesn't the Seanchan collar find natural born channelers at the age of 6? And why doesn't the collar work on learners, or those who can learn to channel? Because, the physical body has a component, be it genetic, or an actual, physical portion of the body, which matures at a specific age, enabling the OP to course from OP, to soul, through body. As stilling demonstrates, something is cut, as those who are stilled say. They can still feel the OP, but they can't channel. They can feel it, because their souls are still connected to the OP, but their bridge has been cut. If you noticed, Nynaeve used more than spirit to repair that bridge, enabling Logain to channel once again. Those who are burned out no longer feel the OP. In other words, their connection from soul to OP has been destroyed, and they are no longer able to channel. You can find a significant discussion here, or here is a link to four discussions. In those discussions you will find the pertinent quotes. A body and a soul has to have the ability to channel, or to learn to channel, to make it possible.
31
Anubis: 2005-05-29
You make a point that the body must be a certian maturity to channel but I dont see the relation between body and channeling strength. Im a little more shakey on ability to channel. Someone says that bodies for transmitigation are usually whatever is available. This doesnt speak of hunting for bodies of the same channeling ability as the person to be reborn. And I really dont believe body determines strength. First of all Halima makes no sense at all. And i find it incredibly hard to believe that the DO just happened to have a Forsaken strength channeler just sitting around in his basement, one that was exactly as strong as his recently dead friend.
32
Anubis: 2005-05-29
Ok theres a channeling gene. Strength however is 100% a result of the individuals soul.
33
Tamyrlin: 2005-05-29
Anubis, strength is a soul and body thing. Look at Cyndane. Look at Siuan's healing; her bridge, her bandwidth wasn't patched correctly, so while her soul can use more OP, her body is unable to channel it. Look at the growth in strength as an individual matures. You "reach" a top strength over years, suggesting that while a soul may have a top strength, the body must mature to reach that strength. The body works to reach the bandwidth necessary to handle the total amount the soul is able to channel, but strength does depend on the body too.
34
JakOShadows: 2005-05-29
Anubis: It also be the finns killed her, and the DO had to find a body that hadn't quite mutured yet, or may never mature. So it could be a result of what happened in finnland, but the finns did not actually do it.
Tamyrlin: I like your theory there. That pretty much perfectly describes the connection between body and soul as far as the OP is concerned. The only thing that bugs me about Lanfear/Cyndane is this: Why would the DO make her weaker? Do you you think he couldn't find a proper body to use for her, and he frankly didn't care? Or could it be he used a body that didn't hold a soul that could channel before and it needs time to mature? Like I said before, there just seems to be something funny about the way she was reborn and the circumstances involved.
35
Callandor: 2005-05-29
From the Tor Q&A question number 3 (ironically, Tam's question ;)) (just a segment of it, the question in general is about transmigration):
**~After the soul is secured, then a suitable body must be acquired and stripped of the (former) owner's memory and soul to make way for the favored one.~ By the way, what constitutes a suitable body from the Dark One's perspective is not that of the recipient. Certainly Aginor would never have chosen to be reincarnated in his, shall we say, less than imposing body, nor would the womanizing Balthamel have chosen to be reincarnated as a beautiful woman. It was only chance that Moridin ended up in a body that is young, fairly good looking and physically imposing. Those things simply don't matter to the Dark One. ~But the body has to be basically healthy and sound, and neither too young nor too old. After all, the Dark One wants his servants to be effective, and a body that meets those basic requirements is more desirable than one that doesn't.~ Since there is no stockpile of such bodies, the only way for someone to die and immediately be reincarnated would be a matter of pure chance. That is, the death occurred when a suitable body was on hand for some other reason. There are a few other limits and constraints, but I won't go into them here, since I may want to use them in the books, and I would rather they come as a surprise if I do.**
It isn't as if the Dark One is stupid -- the body of the recipiants have to at least be able to channel or have the possibility of it.
36
Callandor: 2005-05-29
1. Who says she died?
2. Who says she was transmigrated?
37
JakOShadows: 2005-05-30
I just though about something here guys. Lanfear is supposed to be one of the powerful channelers of the forsaken right. It just occured to me that most of the channelers right now are nowhere near as strong as her. So the odds that the DO would find a body that has as much potential to channel as her previous body would not be likely. And that could be why she is weaker right now. And he also could have had a preference over who had the stronger body. As far as we've seen, Lanfear is the most disrespectful of the DO out of all of the forsaken. So he could have opted to give the weaker body. And she is mindtrapped, so maybe he doesn't need her to be as strong as the other forsaken to complete the tasks he has in mind.
38
Frenzy: 2005-05-31
The only problem with that, JakOShadows, is that neitehr Osan'gar nor Aran'gar have similar problems with diminished strength. (at least that have been commented on) If finding a body strong enough to handle what the Soul can channel, then Halima makes absolutely no sense.
39
ranman38: 2005-05-31
Works for me, good points and good theory.
40
Wielder of Waterflame: 2005-06-01
Cyndane is still the strongest female forsaken (not sure if this includes Halima). Graendal wonders where the DO found a channeler stronger than her upon being introduced. She may still surpass some men too.
41
The potato reborn: 2005-06-01
Hello all, I'm new here, but have been lurking for a while and just had to join in!
Here's my tuppence worth...
Didn't Min have a viewing about Morraine, I think it was something along the lines that when Morraine was with the three lads, the sparks in the darkness got brighter - doesnt that sort of imply that she is needed for TG and therefore either can't be dead?
Sorry for not having a direct quote, but I'm sure that was in one of the first three books...
42
JakOShadows: 2005-06-01
frenzy: Let me give an example here. I don't think I stated it very clearly the first time. Let's say there are three possible bodies left to use: Osan'gar's, Aran'gar's and Cyndane's.
O's, and A's have zero limitation of the amount of power they can handle, whereas C's could only handle 80%(just a random number) of the forsaken's power. If the DO had to choose, he might have chosen Lanfear. And that's how the decrease in power could have been caused. If you think about it, the soul goes on, but the body could be getting weaker and weaker since male AS haven't ever had many "relationships" with female AS lately. Now I could still be wrong, but it just seemed like you weren't seeing exactly the way I was.
43
JakOShadows: 2005-06-01
frenzy: one thing I forgot to mention here. If your talking about Aran'gar/Halima, I always thought both saidar and saidin could be channeled through any body. Look at a link between men and women in WH at the cleansing. Women used saidin as part of a circle. I'm assuming that's what your talking about, if not, explain to me what you were thinking.
44
Callandor: 2005-06-02
**Didn't Min have a viewing about Morraine, I think it was something along the lines that when Morraine was with the three lads, the sparks in the darkness got brighter - doesnt that sort of imply that she is needed for TG and therefore either can't be dead?**
Moiraine is indeed included in the Viewing about Rand and co. in Baerlon in The Eye of the World.
45
brother of Battles: 2005-06-08
You also have to take into account the fact that Lanfear had an angreal. Moiraine ripped it away from her, but she still have the angreal. Plus, I can't find the quote, but Moiraine put the bracelet on that specific wagon while she was loading them up. Every day she was fretting over that wagon in perticular. I think Moiraine put that bracelet there on purpose for Lanfear to find. The only question then is why she did that. And why snag it away from her while pushing her through the doorway. Why take the time in doing that when you already had her going through the doorway.
"The sight of Lanfear hit her like a blow. Not surprise, but the shock of seeing what had been in her dreams so often since Rhuidean. Lanfear standing on the wagonbed, blazing bright as the sun with saidar, framed by the twisted redstone ter'angreal as she stared down at Rand, a pitiless smile on her lips. She was turning a bracelet in her hands. An angreal; unless Rand had his own angreal, she should be able to crush him with that. Either he did, or Lanfear was toying with him. It did not matter. Moiraine did not like that circle of carved age-dark ivory. At first glance it seemed to be an acrobat bending backwards to grip his ankles. Only a closer look would show that his wrists and ankles were bound together. She did not like it, but she had brought it out of Rhuidean. Yesterday she had taken the bracelet from a sack of odds-and-ends and left it lying there at the foot of the doorframe." FoH Chapter: Choices.
So like I said, why did Moiraine allow Lanfear to have the angreal, only to snatch it away from her again?
46
Dezza: 2005-06-09
I believe that Moraine was setting up events to give the best outcome for Rand. She was given a whole lot of possible futures and picked what she thought was best. It required Lanfear to have the angreal and for her to tackle her through the door, while embracing saidar.
Other posible futures were hinted at but I don't have the books so no quotes. One seemed to be Moraine sleeping with Rand.
I often wonder more about how Cyndane (Lanfear) reacted to Alivia. It seemed that she thought it was not possible for anyone to have more strength than she had as Lanfear. How did she know that? Was that one of her gifts from the Finns? To be the most powerful female channeller ever?
47
Narianna: 2005-06-09
yes, this has been debated before in the theoryland that lanfear has already been granted her three wishes by the finns.to be the most beautiful women ,to be the most powerful channeler ever and....
if someone can remember the third gift she might have asked please post it.
48
Anubis: 2005-06-09
**I often wonder more about how Cyndane (Lanfear) reacted to Alivia. It seemed that she thought it was not possible for anyone to have more strength than she had as Lanfear. How did she know that? Was that one of her gifts from the Finns? To be the most powerful female channeller ever?**
Has Lanfear ever struck you as being, just a little, not all the time of course, but just now and again, slightly, and this is by no means a constant thing or a charachter trait but what im trying to get at is that there have been occasions when Lanfear displayed a hint, just a hint, of arrogance. :P She is so full of herself its actually just plain impressive. Thinking noone could be stronger then her would be a likely conclusion of hers.
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Narianna: 2005-06-09
yes anubis lanfear is a "little" arrogant.but referring back to the quote
"it was impossible. no woman could be stronger than her"(paraphrase)
the tone the passage IIRC clearly indicates that cyndane has reason for believing that no woman could be more powerful than lanfear was;other than her arrogance.
clearly she has ~some~ knowledge which rules out the existence of female channelers stronger than hers?
50
Narianna: 2005-06-09
here is the relevant quote
"Then the woman struck back at her, and she suffered her second shock. She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger. She must have an angreal, too. Shock lasted only the time it took her to slice the other woman's flows. She did not know how to reverse them. Maybe that would be enough advantage. She would see Lews Therin die! The taller woman jerked as her cut flows snapped back into her, but even as she shifted her feet with the blow, she channeled again. Snarling, Cyndane fought back, and the earth heaved beneath their feet. She would see him die! She would."
51
Xmajic: 2005-06-11
This is my first time putting in my two cents but I think everyone is missing a major point. Didn;t the Finn Nearly kill mat to grant him his powers. Didn't they have rules about what you could or could not bring to them. What if Morraine set that angrel there knowing it would be particullary offensive to them. Something she could use in order to demonstrate to them she was a friend and hand over Lanfear for their punishment. This could allow her to opertunity to bargain for something that Rand needs in TG. I think this would justify her risking her life and Rands with this kind of a silly trap. Keep in mind she knew what she was getting into. I don't think she would have sacrificed her life simply to kill Lanfear. Besides didn't she talk Rand into going to those docks that day and basically set up this whole thing. In conclusion I will say that I would gladly give my left ear to find out what her letter to Thom said. Personally I think the Finn always drop you off hanging from a tree and she told him where to go to get her down. :-) I am more interested is seeing what happens to Avienda's and Rand's baby she was dead untill Rand Balefired Rivin. When the Aes Sedai talk about why to ban balefire I cannot think of a better reason than that!
P.s. Oh and does anyone else think that Jordan and Rowlin should have secret service protection untill they complete their searies! They must complete them or I will seriously go insane!
