1
Tamyrlin: 2005-06-11
So, you are suggesting Lanfear was stilled, and both received opportunities to get wishes. Lanfear, fearing her stilling more than anything else, wishes for it back. Which, the Finns do, by healing Lanfear, in essence, and taking Moiraine's ability and giving it to Lanfear, stilling Moiraine? I don't think it has to be that elaborate; I think both of them could have been stilled through their enterance and battle for the angreal. Moiraine certainly could be out and stilled, but that is a hard one to prove. Lanfear was likely stilled, and was possibly given a new body by the Finns. But, back to another point. Lanfear is still stronger than Graendal (unless she was holding onto an angreal the entire time). And Nynaeve is stronger than Moiraine, but just as strong as Moghedien, a couple books into the story. And Moghedien is weaker than Graendal...so I don't think there is a likelihood Lanfear received Moiraine's strength in the OP...unless, Lanfear was holding the angreal at both moments we hear of her lowering in strength.
2
reTaardad: 2005-06-11
Tam stole my entire reply. The link between Moiraine to Nynaeve to Moghedien to Graendal to Lanfear easily disproves this theory. I am of the consensus that says that Lanfear was healed of severing by a Black Ajah member that learned it after Nynaeve. Simple, but more probable.
3
Callandor: 2005-06-11
**As Callandor has pointed out in another thread, this would inevitably have burned Lanfear out.**
It might have. That's the point. It's a possiblity, not a certainty. We've seen Rand lose contact with saidin very abruptly many times, with or without angreal or even sa'angreal. No damage.
**At any rate, we know that Lanfear/Cyndane has a lesser ability to channel.**
Yes, but that isn't explained here then. Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear was, yes, but she is still quite powerful since she can overpower Graendal. Moiraine is weaker than Egwene, Elayne, and Aviendha. Way different strength catagories.
And if Lanfear's ability to channel was returned, why would she be weaker upon transmigration? It would be just like she was never stilled/burnt out in the first place.
**I am of the consensus that says that Lanfear was healed of severing by a Black Ajah member that learned it after Nynaeve. Simple, but more probable.**
That's highly unlikely if not impossible. It would require a Black Ajah in Salidar of the Yellow Ajah of suitable Talent (admittedly possible, though again, highly unlikely) and then they would have to get away from Salidar for some time. Possible, but on the extreme unlikely side. You would also think that Cyndane might elicit some comment about being Healed or the discovery of such a thing. Much more likely is that she was never stilled/burnt out in the first place.
4
JakOShadows: 2005-06-12
reTaardad: I agree with you there. It does make more sense that the BA would heal, rather than a trading of powers from Moraine to Lanfear. And it also makes you wonder what the price would have been. I don't see anything of something like what happened to Mat in the book, and it would be a gift of the same degree. And if a woman healed her, that could be what contributed to the weakening of her ability too. But until everything that happened with the finns, I don't think there's enough evidence to say either way.
5
reTaardad: 2005-06-12
Callandor: Highly unlikely or impossible? By the time Egwene arrived in Salidar, dozens of Yellows not only knew how to Heal severing, but had claimed they knew better methods. A Black-Yellow Ajah member could easily have been sent for to Heal a Forsaken, so what is the argument there?
6
Callandor: 2005-06-13
**Callandor: Highly unlikely or impossible? By the time Egwene arrived in Salidar, dozens of Yellows not only knew how to Heal severing, but had claimed they knew better methods. A Black-Yellow Ajah member could easily have been sent for to Heal a Forsaken, so what is the argument there?**
1. Knowledge -- open to a lot, but limited to Salidar.
2. Talent -- extremely rare to find a person as a Talented in Healing as Nynaeve or Flinn in the cases of Healing severing.
3. Sworn to the Shadow -- a further limitation.
4. Vaction from Salidar and then quiet return.
And I feel you are stressing easily a little too much and are not considering the context of the situation to the fullest extent here.
The Shadow (at least Moridin) knows of the ability to Heal severing, and also it's drawbacks.
The Forsaken are out of the picture for doing it, because they do not know of it (save Moridin, and that is useless to him cause he can't perform it), or they do not have the sufficent Talent. A notable exception is Semirhage -- but if you think she would be Healing Lanfear (you know, her nemesis) without at the least, and I do stress least here, performing a little sadism that for sure would've been brought up....
Not to mention, the similarities between the Power drops either seem to be a baseline bottom, or a ratio drop. That is, Leane and Siuan either lost a big huge actual "chunk" of their channeling ability or an equal percentage of it.
Lanfear's power drop is in no where near the same catagory, since she is still in the same channeling class, and still at the top of it -- instead of being at least at the lowest of the low like Siuan and Leane of her class, if not completely out of Forsaken classification.
What's my arguement? That it's highly unlikely, if not outright impossible, for Lanfear to have been Healed of stilling.
7
Great Lord of the Dark: 2005-06-13
Don't forget that Moghedien was around Salidar at the time of the Healing. She may not know much about healing herself, but she has both access to Nynaeve and can understand the basics enough to explain it to a real Healer, such as Semirhage, after she has been freed. Yes, while doling out channeling secrets to the girls, Moghedien also takes note of things they know. And Nynaeve's discovery is sure to have attracted her attention.
Moghedien is the link, not some yellow-Black sister.
8
Narianna: 2005-06-13
highly unlikely,great lord.
moghedian has little or no capability in healing.the qoute is somewhere in the prologue of LoC.
also if you don't have the talent of healing then you can't explain it to any one else(again quote is somewhere in the tDR when nynaeve heals elayne and egwene is unable to follow it)
also nynaeve NEVER tried to heal stilling in front of moggy.
moggy wasn't there when she healed siuan and leane and also not there when she healed logain and not their either when she demonstrated the weaves for the yelloe ajah.
also moggy is kept quite busy as the servent .only time we have seen that nynaeve MIGHT have used something like healing weave was during her sessions with siuan and leane .
but at that point also nynaeve has not suceeded and since moggy do not has the talent of healing she couldn't complete the missing info(and i doubt moggy would be able to explain the incomplte/eroneous weave to semi).
these in a nutshell are my arguments against the hypothesis that lanfear was stilled and healed.
9
Callandor: 2005-06-13
**Don't forget that Moghedien was around Salidar at the time of the Healing. She may not know much about healing herself, but she has both access to Nynaeve and can understand the basics enough to explain it to a real Healer, such as Semirhage, after she has been freed. Yes, while doling out channeling secrets to the girls, Moghedien also takes note of things they know. And Nynaeve's discovery is sure to have attracted her attention.**
No, Moghedien is too late -- she returns to Shayol Ghul when Cyndane is already mindtrapped. Unknown whether you can do that to a stilled person or if it has to be an active channeler, but I'd say the latter.
10
: 2005-06-28
I believe that both Lanfear and Moiraine were stilled when they went through the doorway. There was too much of the one power being channelled, plus we have Lan being cut from his bond. This is not proof enough, but lets look at it logically. The only way to beat the finns is to cheat, we know that clearly. If you play the game(meaning if you make a wish) they will extract their price and if the wish is strong enough, meaning anything to do with either the power or the shadow etc. they might decide to take your life. Mat wanted a way to be rid of Aes Sedai and the power, they gave him the medallion but killed him. We know Cyndane is Lanfear, the only way for her to be Cyndane(transmigration) is for her to have DIED. I believe they were both stilled, neutralizing eachother so when they got to finnland they could not kill eachother with the power. Then the finns came, asking their mandatory music,iron,fire questions, then the foxes ask to grant wishes, lanfear automatically asks to be restored of stilling(remember even if she does not know about the new discovery for HUMANS to heal this, the foxes are a different species and their powers are differnt. logically you know lanfear would ask them to restore her power, i mean if they have the power to grant wishes, restoring being stilled is not something unimaginable and i believe she asked them)..for a reason unknown to us readers at this time, she is healed but not the full extent of her former ability but still immensely strong, remember Cyndane is stronger than Greandal. Guess what happens next, the foxes kill her after her other two wishes are granted. Moiraine may have or may not have witnessed lanfear being killed by them. my guess is that she did not witness it, remember that her, rand, and mat were inside the Tear doorway together but had no idea that each was in there until they came out.
Anyway, my point is that Moiraine is smart enough to know not to make a wish, she refrains from PLAYING THEIR GAME. BECAUSE SHE KNOWS I CANT BEAT THEM WITHOUT CHEATING, THE'LL KILL ME EVERYTIME. So.. the DO gives Lanfear her "LAST CHANCE", (thats what the name "Cyndane" translates into), gives her a new body and thats how lanfear got out of finnland. remember after they killed mat he was hanging from a cord outside ruidien when rand found him. so it stands to reason that the finns kicked her body out of finnland after they killed her. SO, Moiraine is stilled, and trapped with the foxes possibly waiting for thom to come and get her. We dont know if she knows this but I am wondering about this "bubble of hope" or whatever it is, remember Moiraine has always been about duty, and she would sacrifice herself in a heartbeat if she knew it would get rand rid of lanfear.
11
Leeanne: 2005-07-31
I'm new here so bear with me! I haven't had a chance to read all of the theories about Moiraine, but has anyone considered that she could ahve returned as a male character, changed by the *finn or some other power, like Balthamel becoming Aran'gar? At the battle of Shadar Logoth, Rand is helped by a black-haired man as tall as he is, about his age in appearance, who uses Balefire and makes a Gate, yet Rand cannot sense Saidin when the man did these things. I know, that character could be using the True Power-and may be Moridin for all I know- but it could also be that the character was using Saidar, and not detectable by Rand. Any ideas anyone? Remember, be kind, I'm brand new at this sort of thing!
12
Anubis: 2005-08-01
Rand would have noticed his forearms itching. He comments specificly that he felt absolutly nothing. And besides this is one HELL of a red herring if the person is not morridin.
13
Yaga Shura: 2005-08-01
"has anyone considered that she could ahve returned as a male character, changed by the *finn or some other power, like Balthamel becoming Aran'gar?"
This isn't completely impossible, becasue how much power the Finns have isn't really known, and it's certainly possible.
"At the battle of Shadar Logoth, Rand is helped by a black-haired man as tall as he is, about his age in appearance, who uses Balefire and makes a Gate, yet Rand cannot sense Saidin when the man did these things. I know, that character could be using the True Power-and may be Moridin for all I know- but it could also be that the character was using Saidar, and not detectable by Rand. Any ideas anyone?"
The WoTFAQ has a fairly decent section on this:Link. The bit that relates to this is down at the bottom of the page. I think the most important part against this idea is that we've already seen that guy before in ACOS.
14
ThunderWalker: 2005-08-01
The Observations we have are:
1) The drop in strength is very slight going from Lanfear to Cyndane.
2) The healing weave to heal severing of a woman by a woman results in a large drop in strength. (no man healing man info)
3) The healing weave to heal severing of a man by a women results in little or no drop in strength. And same with healing of a woman by a man.
Are there any quotes saying that a Woman healed by a man is the EXACT same strength as before severing? Just pointing out that a 1-2% drop of strength will be more noticable for a high strength power user, than a lower strength one. We know that Logain was high strength after healing, but there really is no comparison with his previous power level.
I think that it more likely that IF Cyndane was healed of severing, it was done by a man. I don't know how many male power users know Flynn's weave now. A DF may know of it at this point. Maybe not.
Of course, the Finn's could have their own means of healing, that could result in a close to perfect (but not perfect) un-severing. They seem to have limited control over reading, and modifying peoples threads. Why not the ability to tweek the soul/body to fix severing?
And when the DO grabs a soul for placing into a new body, the soul does not go through the normal reincarnation process (losing memory, and starting as a child). So a power drop (however small) of a healed severing could very well be carried over to a new body.
Some possibilities are:
A) a dead and restored (by DO) Cyndane could have remained severed, and was then unsevered by an DF A-man (after leaving the Finns).
B) Lanfear could have been healed as Lanfear by the Finns, then killed and placed into a new body by the DO, but with the healed power level caried over to the new body.
or, what I think is more likely,
C) The Finn's version of healing is to move a thread of the severed person into the body of an unsevered one. (body swapping, similar to what the DO does). They grabed a channeler from either the real world, or one of the Mirror worlds (maybe even a Mirror Lanfear) and swapped souls or memories.
This is assuming that she was severed in the first place, of course.
15
Callandor: 2005-08-02
**Are there any quotes saying that a Woman healed by a man is the EXACT same strength as before severing?**
The quotes are these:
**TITLE: Winter's Heart, CHAPTER: 13 - Wonderful News
"I have the most wonderful news, Cadsuane." By the sound of her, she was not all certain how wonderful it was. "I know you said I should keep Damer busy here in the Palace, but he insisted on looking at the sisters still in the Aiel camp. Mild-tempered as he is, he's very insistent when he wants to be, and sure as the sun there's nothing can't be Healed. And, well, the fact of it is, he's gone and Healed Irgain. Cadsuane, it's as if she'd never been . . ." She trailed off, unable to say the word. It hung in the air even so. Stilled."
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 30 - To Heal Again
"Siuan twisted around to face her, but she included Nynaeve as well. "I went by Logain's house. Six sisters are maintaining his shield, the same as when he was captured. He tried to break free when he found out we knew he had been Healed, and they said if only five had been holding the shield, he might have. So he's as strong as he ever was, or close enough to make no difference. I'm not. Neither is Siuan. I want you to try again, Nynaeve."
By all appearances there is absolutely no drop in strength from a woman Healing a man and a man Healing a woman. You may say that Lanfear's drop was minimal, but it was enough for people to remark upon it being different, and especially enough for it to elicit a comment from Lanfear herself. Logain and the 3 Aes Sedai Flinn Healed make no comment at all about any reduction. Extremely likely that there is none.
"I think that it more likely that IF Cyndane was healed of severing, it was done by a man. I don't know how many male power users know Flynn's weave now. A DF may know of it at this point. Maybe not."
Absolutely not. There is no way a man Healed Lanfear of stilling for the sole reason that she is mindtrapped in ACOS (implication is that you cannot mindtrap a stilled person; just like you cannot mindtrap a non-channeler), and she is shown in TPOD using saidar.
Flinn Heals the Aes Sedai in Winter's Heart. Even with the slight overlap of the books, the timing does not work out.
Not to mention, the people that know of it excludes the possiblity of a Darkfriend Asha'man unless (granted, it's a very far outside possibility) one of Rand's group is a Darkfriend Asha'man. It's not as if the Black Tower knows of what has happened, and knows the weave (they know about Nynaeve's way from Logain of course, but not Flinn's).
If Lanfear was Healed of stilling, the only possible is that she was Healed by a woman.
16
JakOShadows: 2005-08-03
thunderwalker: the only problem with stealing Lanfear's mirror self from a mirror world is that she would have no memory of things that have happened in this world. And we haven't seen these gaps in her memory like Mat has.
I do think ya'll are on the right track considering the deal making. And the doorway making the request could end in death a lot quicker than the other one. It would make logical sense. Give abilities and answers to a question are quite different.
17
TheJester: 2006-03-03
Since KoD I decided to re-read the bits about Moiraine being killed/stilled in her fight with Lanfear.
We know now that she is not dead, but as to whether she is stilled/burned out we are still unsure.
The proof for Moiraine being stilled has largely always come from the bond with Lan being broken, however I think I have found that ellusive quote that may disprove this:-
The Fires of Heaven, paper back, Chapter 52 Choices, page 823.
"In Spite of herself, he eyes darted searching for Lan, found him lying almost against the foggy gray wall of the dome that stretched overhead. He twitched, perhaps trying to find the strength to rise, perhaps dying. *She forced him out of her mind*. He saved her life so many times that by rights it should have belonged to him, but she had long since done what she could to see that he survuved his lon war eith the Shadow. *Now he must live or die without her*."
With most of the quotes there are bits of ambiguity, and the first point about forcing out could be that she was intent on the matter at hand, killing Lanfear. But if that was the case why not put "she put him out of her mind" which is the common expression or "she had to ignore him".
The second point about living or dying that might have been ambiguous if we thought that Moiraine died in the fight, we know that she knew she would not. He lives without her bond or dies without it either way she has handed it on to Myrele.
The problem I have with this passage as being proof is that Jordan did say in his question of the week that an Aes Sedai could release a warder so that they would not feel the effects of their Aes Sedai dying.
Did anyone else see this passage and wonder?
