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Home | Index | Archives | Help
adsuane is Moraine
by Truthseeker: 2000-12-15 | 1 out of 10 (4 votes)
Previous Categories: Moiraine: Where is She Now?
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2000-12-15
But I see Cadsuane as having a completely different personality from Cadsuane. And when we have Cadsuane's POV we don't get any clue that this is Moiraine. So, I would be surprised if such was the case.
oldmanfish: 2002-11-06
And don't forget, Cadsuane is a 300 year old legend, while Moiraine is a 50 year old upstart. But hey, maybe they're both Bela, too.
demonblade: 2002-11-15
Well said, oldmanfish. I once flirted with the idea that Cadsuane was Moiraine, but ultimately dismissed it because there seems to be too much evidence to say that Cadsuane is her own woman. Besides, these two women are vitally important to Rand's cause individually. if RJ ever makes this theory fact, he should be shot.
MoiraineSedai: 2002-12-04
Cadsuane cannot be Moiraine because Moiraine meets Cadsuane in New Spring. It's impossible.
Dragons Shadow: 2002-12-19
Another reason Cadsuane cannot be Moiraine. Moiraine swore to OBEY Rand.
By the 3 Oaths, she can NOT disobey.
Cadsuane does NOT obey Rand at all. In fact she DISOBEYS him whenever she can.
By the way, Moiraine CAN spin the mirror of mists AND can invert weaves, so why couldn't she be masquerading as a legendary Aes Sedai whom she met once and surely believes to be dead?
strouss: 2002-12-21
It is quite possible that Cadsuane is moiraine. Moiraine had the knowledge needed to disguise herself with the one power, and her having met Cadsuane only means she'd know what she looks like. I'm not saying that Cadsuane isn't/wasn't real. However, the Cadsuane in the series could be Moiraine. As for being cut off from Lan and disobeying Rand, who knows what entering the door and then having the door destroyed would do. It is unprecedented, so there is no way to know what would happen.
I don't personally believe that Cadsuane is Moiraine and vice versa, but it is a possibility not to be thrown out.
Callandor: 2002-12-22
Big question is if Moiraine was pretending to be Cadsuane is... WHY?!? Shes Moiraine. Its her life mission to help guide Rand and it would seem REALLY pointless to pretend to be someone else, meet up with Rand, gain his trust, and THEN start guiding him. Plus we have had Cadsuanes POV and she doesnt seem anything like Moiraine or even HINTS at pretending to be someone else.
Joseph7626: 2003-01-17
My only question about the whole Cadsuane is Moraine equation is where does Moraine suddenly find all the terangreal and one power using items. To the best of my knowledge she never mentioned or even thought of the stuff.
Daishan: 2003-01-18
As for that last part, Joseph, she could have filched some frome the Great Hold in the Stone of Tear, and then some more from Rhuidean, where she also got the bracelet angreal. But furthermore I agree with Callandor; Rand has at several points in the story actually WISHED to himself that Moiraine was still there, and Moiraine surely thought she was doing good near the end, so why not just come back as Moiraine? It seems a bit too complicated to be worthwile.
Jiana: 2003-03-25
I also toyed with this idea, but for me, it doesn't seem right. In New Spring, Moiraine had a suspicion that Cadsuane might be Black Ajah... but then, she didn't know who to trust except Siuan, either. Also... am I mistaken in thinking that Cadsuane had all of those thingies in her hair in New Spring as well? (Clearly, I need to re-read...AGAIN!)
Deane Aryman: 2003-07-30
I do not believe Cadsuane is Moraine, they are different in many ways. But what I like to know is about the book New Spring. What book is that and where can i get it? Is Sweden an outback these days?
juitzhead: 2003-07-30
New Spring is a short story to the WoT books which show how Lan and Moiraine met and how they started their hunt for the Dragon Reborn. It was published in a short story book called Legends but RJ is doing an extended version which I think comes out later this year(perhaps early next year). If you want more info check out the Theoryland home page, that's got a bit more info i think.
silverwolf: 2003-07-31
Cadsuane thinks of Moiraine as a separate person. I don't have the quote, but it was something about Elaida being the latest in a long list of bunglers, starting with Suian Sanche and Moiraine Damodred. That kind of indicates that Cadsuane is not Moiraine.
illuvatar7: 2003-08-18
I submitted a theory with several quotes as to why Cadsuane CAN NOT be Moiraine, at least without several large plot deficiencies. If it is not posted, then I'll post in in this theory thread.
Him-who-may: 2003-08-18
Min's viewings of Cadsuanne are not those that she saw of Moraine. However well she could disguise herself I don't think she could alter those.
Callandor: 2003-08-18
This theory was killed a long time ago. It's in the posts:
**Cadsuane cannot be Moiraine because Moiraine meets Cadsuane in New Spring. It's impossible.**
Really gets no more clear then that.
illuvatar7: 2003-08-18
The subject of Moiraine masquerading as Cadsuane, the last time I checked here, did not seem to be fully resolved. I found some quotes to help dispel the theory that Moiraine is Cadsuane. If indeed RJ reveals that this is so, I have found several possible continuity errors that may result from this. So, here they are, quotes and commentary, in chronological order: Why Moiraine can't be Cadsuane.
Quote 1: ["Do not keep me waiting, Alanna," she said in an icy tone. She had no sympathy for the other woman. Alanna was another in a line of sisters, from Moiraine to Elaida, who had bungled and worsened what they should have been mending. While she herself had been off chasing first Logain Ablar and then Mazrim Taim. Which did not soothe her mood.]
TPoD, Ch. 12, New Alliances
First of all, it is unlikely Moiraine would refer to herself in the third person like this from her own PoV. It is still less likely she would call herself a "bungler", although this is not as outlandish as it might seem - Moiraine has been prone to small bouts of self-deprecation when she was feeling frustrated before. However, Cadsuane also details what she was doing out in the world - chasing down false Dragons, not finding Rand.
Quote 2: [She (Cadsuane) had not met many she considered formidable, but Sorilea was one. Perhaps even a match for herself, in some ways. She also suspected the woman was as old as she was, maybe older, and that she had never expected to find.]
Same source as above
Moiraine is nowhere near old enough to be close to Sorilea's age, but Cadsuane is. It is unlikely that Moiraine would think of herself as old.
Quote 3: [She (Cadsuane) was willing to let that go, so long as it did not go too far. She had begun gathering sisters she trusted, those here with her and others, the day she first heard of strange events in Shienar - her eyes and ears had kept watch on Siuan Sanche and Moiraine Damodred for years without learning anything useful until then - yet just because she trusted them didn't mean she intended to let them start going their own way.]
WH, Ch. 13, Wonderful News
Again, Cadsuane thinks of Moiraine as a separate person, moreover one she had kept tabs on. Unlikely thoughts if she was to turn out to be Moiraine, I would say.
Quote 4: [Kneeling beside the girl, Cadsuane laid the swallow on the ground beside her, took the girl's head in her hands and lessened the amount of saidar she was putting into the shield. Her abilities with Healing were no more than average, but she could wash away some of the girl's exhaustion at least before falling over herself.]
WH, Ch. 35, With the Choedan Kal
As we all know, average is not an accurate term for Moiraine's healing abilities - she is quite adept with the talent, as a matter of fact. How much she was able to help Nynaeve is of little consequence, since I seem to remember someone (Asmodean?) say that no one had ever used the Choedan Kal before. The point is how she rates her healing abilities. Incidentally, she makes another reference to her healing abilities in ACoS, ch. 36, Blades, after Fain slashes Rand with his dagger. Cadsuane calls for help because her healing isn't strong enough to help Rand... although, to be fair, Fain's dagger hardly counts as a bruise, and even Moiraine might have had trouble with it, so her needing help from a Yellow doesn't prove much.
Still not convinced? Another observation is how Cadsuane refers to people in her PoV. She has never called Rand by his first name, either out loud or in her mind, referring to him instead as "boy" or "young al'Thor". She rarely refers to Min as other than "girl" either (Sorilea style), whereas Moiraine called both characters by their first names and was quite friendly with Min. Therefore, I state that the evidence moves away from the entire Cadsiraine point of view.
rubbernilly: 2003-08-19
This is just about the worst theory I've ever read. The two pieces of proof are:
1) personality similarities
...ooh, there's convincing proof...
2) manipulative skill
...now, where in the Aes Sedai, would I look if I wanted to find skilled manipulators? I just don't know... I wouldn't know where to begin. (Yes, that's sarcasm. Take it with water and Midol to quell any cramps.)
...Cadsuane refers to her own age (greater than Moiraine)
...Cadsuane refers to watching Moiraine
...Cadsuane refers to Moiraine's actions as being outside of herself
...Cadsuane refers to a backstory that is inconsistent with what we know of Moiraine
...Cadsuane and Moiraine met in New Spring
.......Do I really need to go on?
...Cadsuane's POV's never hint about a hidden identity
...Cadsuane has a number of *angreal that Moiraine does not have the last time we saw here.
Now, as for both points given in the dump-in-a-box, Cadsuane's personality and her adept manipulation of Rand, these are both skills we would expect someone in her position to demonstrate. Moiraine also was in that position; we would fully expect her to demonstrate these qualities as well. Of course, she don't demonstrate them as profoundly as Cadsuane does: Moiraine ended up having to swear to obey Rand before he would trust her. Cadsuane has not reached that end of her rope yet. She is more skilled than Moiraine in that regard... which, for the present conversation should simply be read that she is a different person than Moiraine.
There is no way that C=M. Although, it is true that M=E/C^2.
Bela: 2003-08-20
I really don't think this is plausible, but I'll give some support here, let's say she is Moiraine. We can see that when recreating the Forsaken, the DO simply puts their souls into an available body. What's not to say that didn't happen with Moiraine? She was simply reincarnated into the closest body. And I agree that Moiraine could definitely have the knowledge and ability to disguise herself with the One Power. Besides, the real Cadsuane would be incredibly old. What if Moiraine is simply disguising herself as a dead Cadsuane in order to be able to walk around more freely and have the support of various sisters. I mean Moiraine wasn't exactly Miss Popularity before her death, was she?? And, she's supposed to be dead. Rand won't ever trust her again if he finds out she lied about being dead. (jk)
Anubis: 2003-08-21
another thing. cadsuane wants desperatly to teach rand somthing, rand doesnt trust cadsuane. rand trusted moirine. so if cadsuane were somehow moirine, she would prolly just say so to regain rands trust.
Flinn: 2003-08-21
This theory can't be real. Cadsuane has pov's where she is remembering things about her past, her family. How and why would moiraine be thinking like this.
Allie: 2003-08-21
Anubis - would Rand trust someone who looked completely different from Moiraine, came in and then announced who she was? I think he's built the walls to high for this to happen.
rubbernilly: 2003-08-22
Shadow Bane - my letters are right, I just solved for M.
Bela - why would the DO have any interest in re-incarnating Moiraine? How would he have access to her soul in the first place? So far, he has only manipulated souls that were sworn to him. This makes no sense.
Kind of like this theory.
moridin68: 2003-08-22
I can't see Moiraine being Cadsuane at all. There's just too much eveidence to the contrary. I have a question though: has it ever been stated or implied who was more the more powerful or the two (Cadsuane or Moiraine) ? That may help matters in determining which side is correct in this discussion.
rubbernilly: 2003-08-23
Never are they explicitly compared, we are told at one point that Cadsuane was a legend among Aes Sedai... that her potential as Novice and Accepted had been the standard for all incoming AS since, never matched until Elayne and Egwene, and never surpassed until Nynaeve. Since the intervening time would have included Moiraine, we have to assume that Cadsuane overshadowed her potential, as well.
I would tend to put the order of power somewhere along the lines of:
Lanfear (100)
Cyndane/Alivia (95)
Graendal/Nynaeve (94)
Moghedien (92)
Elayne/Egwene/Cadsuane (90)
Moiraine (89)
Yes, I put Nynaeve actually stronger than Moggy, since when they faced they were all but evenly matched... except for two things:
1) Nynaeve won
2) Moggy's experience and skill (that Nynaeve still has to grow into) probably made her raw power come off as more effective than Nynaeve's efforts; so if they appeared to be even, in reality Moggy was really underpowered for that contest.
And Cyndane's comment RE: Alivia is that Alivia was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Finn had held her. From that impossibility (to her, which leads to all sorts of inferences we can draw regarding Lanfear's potential power in the scale of women's ability), Cyndane follows up with the correct deduction that Alivia had to have an angreal of some sort (which would push her power above the 100 I have listed for Lanfear). So that's why Alivia comes in stronger than Nynaeve but not as powerful as Lanfear.
Anybody agree? Disagree?
Callandor: 2003-08-23
From the message boards care of cwarner62:
**Complete list of One Power Ratings:
Rand, LTT: 62
Ishamael/Moridin: 62
Lanfear: 59
Aginor/Osan'gar/Dashiva: 57
Demandred/Taim: 56
Cyndane: 50
Sammael: 50
Be'lal: 46
Semirhage: 44
Rahvin: 43
Graendal: 41
Balthamel/Aran'gar/Halima: 41
Logain: 40
real Taim (not Demandred): 39
Mesaana: 37
Asmodean: 35
Alivia: 29
Narishma: 28
Moghedien: 27
Flinn: 27
Sharina: 27
Nynaeve: 26
Talaan: 26
Hopwill: 24
Elayne: 23
Egwene: 23
Aviendha: 23
Metarra: 23
Gedwyn: 23
Rochaid: 22
Cadsuane: 21
Siuan: 19 (pre-stilling, 10 after Healing)
Moiraine: 18
Elaida: 18
Verin: 18
Leanne: 17 (pre-stilling, 9 after Healing)
Romanda: 17
Lelaine: 17
Alvairin: 17
Rainyn: 17
Somerian: 17
Shalon: 16
Failon: 15
Ispan: 13
Tuon: 5
Sorilea: 1
Morgase: 0.5
Average man (or Asha'man): 12 +/- 5.5
Average Aes Sedai: 11
Average Novice: 9.75 +/- 3.5
Average Woman: 8 +/- 3.5
Average AoL man: 25.5 +/- 9.8
Average Aol woman: 17 +/- 8
(all averages given with sigmas are normal distributions)
Number of Aes Sedai: 980
Average number of Aes Sedai over past 1250 yrs: 1960
Average Aes Sedai lifetime: 160 yrs
Distribution of 980 current Aes Sedai (not including Elayne, Egwene, Nynaeve):
9: 262, 10: 223, 11: 175, 12: 127, 13: 84, 14: 53, 15: 29,
16: 15, 17: 7, 18: 3, 19: 1, 21: 1
ratings are truncated (i.e. 9.00-9.99 = 9)
For n people linked, the total power is equal to the greater of:
a) .75 * the sum of every individual's power
or
b) the power of the strongest person + .25 * the sum of everyone else's power
angreal: are multiplicative--the power with an angreal is X * power without
average: 2.4x +/- .65 x, normal distribution.
Moiraine's angreal: 2.4x
Nynaeve's bracelet angreal: 2.4x
Elayne's "turtle" angreal: 2.25x
Aviendha's "woman with long hair" angreal: 1.9x
Rand's "little fat man" angreal: 1.7x
Lanfear's bracelet angreal: 1.7x
Graendal's ring angreal: 1.7x
Cadsuane's hairpiece angreal: 1.6x
sa'angreal: the power with a sa'angreal is X^2 * power without
average X: 2.4 +/- .65, normal distribution
average power multiplier: 5.76x, NOT normal distribution
Callandor: 25x
Choeden Kal: 2500x**
Also should be noted that RJ conciders Rand/The Dragon to be in a rating all by himself.
This is from: grove.ufl.edu/~cwarner/
OPR_formulas.txt
Hope it helps :)!
moridin68: 2003-08-23
I think I would have to rate Alivia a little higher on the scale. If I remember correctly, It was also stated that Alivia is as much above Nynaeve as Nynaeve is above Egwene and Elayne.
Anubis: 2003-08-24
alivia a little stronger?!?
SHE IS STRONGER THEN LANFEAR... LANFEAR SAYS SO. also sharina is "considerably" stronger then nynaeve. in my book considerably is not one point.
who made this thing :S
Callandor: 2003-08-24
She is.
**Alivia: 29
Nynaeve: 26
Elayne: 23
Egwene: 23**
Increments of 3 ;).
Shadow Bane: 2003-08-24
uh moridin
alivia is 29 which is three above nynaeve (26)
Egwene etc. are 23 or three below Nyn it all works out nicely, except for some of rands comments about how various people are close to him in the power and they arent really.
rubbernilly: 2003-08-25
You will have to excuse me, Callandor, if I hold to my own estimations of the relative capabilities of channelers... as long as we are just talking about suppositions and unconfirmed guesses. Especially since the information you listed has "Demandred/Taim" listed, and then later "Taim (not Demandred)," with a significant power drop between those two entries... an impossibility from what RJ has said himself.
I appreciate the alternate view of the power scale, though.
It seems that the math from what you posted was built around a ~62 point scale... which makes bundles and bundles of sense to me. (Sarcasm)
:)
I based my solely-female rating on a hundred point scale since we happen to be a base 10 culture, and put Lanfear at the top because I believe that by intervention of the Finn at some point in the distant past she was made as powerful as a woman *could* be.
Anyway, that's my reasoning.
Callandor: 2003-08-25
Alivia was strong because she had the angreal. Cyndane was saying she must of had an angreal too; as in she had an angreal and a ter'angreal.
rubbernilly: 2003-08-25
Uh, guys...
I think Moridin's comment regarding Alivia's power in relation to Nynaeve was directed at my scale that had her only one point above Nynaeve, while nynaeve was four or five points above the other girls.
rubbernilly: 2003-08-25
anubis -
to put a fine point on what Callandor said regarding Alivia and her angreal... the comment you are referring to is Cyndane saying that Alivia was stronger than the power than Cyndane herself had been before the Finn had held her. Stopping here might lead you to think that Alivia was more powerful than Lanfear, but I think that would be an incorrect assessment. Reading on, you see that Cyndane correctly deduces that Alivia must then have an angreal to account for the increased power. Cyndane calls Alivia's power surpassing that of Lanfear's "impossible." Because of that impossibility, she reasons out that Alivia must have an angreal. Cyndane does not stop her thought with Alivia being more powerful than Lanfear; she stops after coming up with the mechanic by which such impossible strength was made manifest: an angreal.
Alivia is *NOT* more powerful than Lanfear.
HunterofTrollocs: 2004-02-23
i never really thought that Moiraine is Cadsuane reborn for two big reasons.
1. i have always been under the impression that only the Dark One can put a dead soul back into life. Now if that is true then what you are saying is that Moiraine is a Darkfriend which i thought was made pretty clear by all her actions and the way she died that she is not.
2. I read the New Spring novel and it shows Cadsuane and Moiraine in the same room. This book shows that this statement is impossible.
and as an after thought i thought i would just say that Nyneave and Moiraine are awfully a lot alike in their early years.
Anubis: 2004-02-24
rubbernilly. you are wrong. she dudeces that alivia must ALSO have an angrael.
*and she suffered her second shock. She was stronger then Cyndene had been before the Aelfinn and the Elfinn held her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger. She must have an angreal, too.*
and courtesy of www.dictionary.com
definiton of too:
In addition; also: He's coming along too.
alivia is stronger then lanfear. end of story. lanfear only escaped the battle because she is much more skilled then cyndane at fighting channeler vs channeler
Deadsy: 2004-02-24
rubernilly is right here..
"She has to have an angreal too" - IN ADDITION TO THE TER'ANGREAL THAT CYNDANE THINKS SHE MUST HAVE - in the previous paragraph.
wrong (rông, rng)
adj.
Not in conformity with fact or truth; incorrect or erroneous.
right (rt)
adj. right·er, right·est
In accordance with fact, reason, or truth; correct
opinion
\O*pin"ion\, n. [F., from L. opinio. See Opine.] 1. That which is opined; a notion or conviction founded on probable evidence; belief stronger than impression, less strong than positive knowledge; settled judgment in regard to any point of knowledge or action.
Jiana: 2004-02-24
First I'd like to reiterate: I DO NOT think Cadsuane is Moiraine. Now, HunterofTrollocs posted:
2. I read the New Spring novel and it shows Cadsuane and Moiraine in the same room. This book shows that this statement is impossible.
That same thing has been posted before in this thread, and this is my problem with it: New Spring happened 20 years before the current story. Anyone, even an Aes Sedai, could die in 20 years time. And... Cadsuane didn't show up until after Moiraine took a one-way trip to Finn-land. So... I wouldn't say that it would be exactly IMPOSSIBLE for Cadsuane to be Moiraine. What if one of Moi's wishes in Finn-land was to be recognized as a legend, i.e., THE legend? BUT... Given Moiraine's personality (and I see a vast personality difference between Cadsuane and Moiraine), her making a wish like that is highly improbable. Therefore, Cadsuane being Moiraine in disguise is as likely as snow in July.
Seia Doon: 2006-05-10
I think that Moiraine has maybe taken on Cadsuane's identity.
Or the two are very strongly linked somehow. It's the one thing that has struck me is the similarities between the two and their treatment/instruction towards Rand.
Seia Doon: 2006-05-10
the conditions of rand's trust in moiraine were that she obey him and I believe that it made her life extremely difficult in her last days.
Cadsuane and Rand work together but Rand respects Cadsuane a lot more than he did Moiraine. It's like they have an unspoken level of understanding.
Maybe the situation with Moiraine and Cadsuane is like that of Rand and Lews Therin? I don't believe one is the other, more liekly that an identity has been assumed or even shared.
Ishamael666: 2006-05-12
*sigh*
Cadusane is not Moiraine. They meet each other, we have several Cadusane POVs that contradict things we know about Moiraine, as mentioned in illuvatar7's post above.
As for the "strength in the Power" debate, wotmania has an excellent FAQ page about it, linked here.
Puss in Boots: 2006-05-14
It's physically impossible for Cadsuane to be Moiraine.
1 Points of View (enough explaining above)
2 Behaviour
3 Strength in Power (people would be kinda freaked out if someone became drastically changed in power, either up or down. Remember Moiraine said Cadsuane stood far above her)
4 The fact that they met each other in A New Spring. Note: they were in separate bodies at the time.
5 Moiraine is currently stuck in the Tower of Genjei (sp). She can't get out until rescued. We know this as a fact because of the letter and that she has sworn the 3 Oaths.
6 Moiraine tried to help Rand as much as possible when we last saw her. Cadsuane is obssessed with bossing him about.
I think from those few pointers and the numerous points above that we can safely conclude that Cadsuane and Moiraine are, have been, and always will be, entirely separate individuals.
evilbeaver: 2006-05-15
My theory on this is that there are people on this website who submit theories that are completely impossible (along w/ Asmodean skimming, Gaidal Cain being some warder, etc...) just to see if we will seriously debate theories that they started as a joke.
DarkLordChaos: 2006-05-15
have you not read a new spring?
they are in the same room together...
any questions?
to be exact... pg.242 of ans is when we see them meet. and it says not for the first time. a time before that about 2 years before that actually.
thank you.
Zalis: 2006-05-19
On top of them meeting each other...
We have Cadsuane POVs. Clearly this would have been hinted at, partially revealed, or otherwise seen as plausible by now if there were any iota of proof.
But there's not. So she isn't. And we can't seem to say that enough.