ill Moiraine Come Back?
by Coreliegh: 2001-05-24 | 6 out of 10 (12 votes)
I have read at least one theory on whether Lanfear and Moiraine will come back. I believe that Mat or Thom or both will go through the Tower of Ghenjei to rescue her. Here are the reasons why.
1. I believe that in PoD, the second mind trap was revealed to be Cyndane, whom no one had everseen before, but she had knowledge of the AoL. At the end of WH, she is revealed to be a "recycled" Lanfear. If Lanfear was recycled, she had to have died, otherwise why recycle?
2. When Moiraine pushed Lanfear through the ter'angreal, Jordan says that the connection between the two worlds was severed. He says nothing really about deaths. One of them had to have died, because they wouldn't just shake hands and be friends when they discover themselves in finnworld. because of point number one, Moiraine could have survived.
3. Lan felt the bond between himself and Moiraine severed. We all assume that this is because of Moiraine's death. That is not the only way to sever the bond. moiraine could possibly (I think probably) been stilled in her fight with Lanfear. Or the bond could have been severed at the same time that the connection between the worlds was broken, leaving Moiraine no longer of this world.
4. In SR, Moiraine says to the girls that she knows the face of her future husband better than they do. She says that maybe she meant to imply that they were all equally ignorant. Aes Sedai word twisting. I believe that there is a blossoming romance between herself and Thom Merrilin. Thom often comments on how beautiful he finds Moiraine and what a fine woman she is. Also, before the battle between her and Lanfear, Moiraine leaves a letter for Thom, knowing what her fate would be. Is it possible that she could have told him how to get her out?
5. We know from birgitte's comments to Perrin in the wolf dream about the Tower of Genjei that the game Snakes and foxes comes from dealings with the Finns. Mat plays the game often with Olver. It is possible that he will connect the game with the Finns, and he often talks about getting revenge on them for their treatment of him. It is also possible that Birgitte might just let her knowledge of the Finns slip out to Mat. I don't think that Jordan would put the Snakes and Foxes game and the means of reaching their world in the story if they weren't going to be necessary to the plot.
6. Min has a viewing that says that Rand would fail without the help of someone who is almost surely dead and gone. It is very likely that that is a reference to Moiraine's return.
I know that was kind of long, but I do think that it is worth a thought or two. Especially point #1.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2001-05-24
Lanfear is strange. If she died and was just given a new body she wouldn't be of a different strength level in the OP...so maybe she never died, maybe she was placed in another person's body...but somehow Moridin gets his hands on her which suggests the DO had a hand in placing her in the body. Very strange. Moiraine will definitely be back, stronger in the OP would be nice.
2
Daishan: 2002-11-09
I don't believe it actually says anywhere that Lanfear was the strongest woman in the One Power altogether. I only remember her thinking it, and to my recollection it is nowhere mentioned as an absolute fact. In Winter's Heart, it says something like "no woman was stronger than she before she came back" or something very similar. This could just mean (and to my opinion it does) that she never encountered a stronger female channeler before, and she may indeed have been the strongest female channeler in the AOL, but who says she couldn't be surpassed somewhere in the next 3000 years? Also; Alivia has an angreal so even just for that reason we can dismiss Lanfear's comment in that scene. Right now I'm starting to remember a scene with mind-trapped Moghedien and Cyndane that might have had something to do with their strength but I'd have to look it up. Be back later...
3
oldmanfish: 2002-11-12
And don't forget the vision of Thom pulling Moiraine's blue stone out of the fire.
4
delboy: 2002-11-19
I reckon Lanfear died, hence the reason for the new body. She is also much weaker than before she went to the finn, as verified by Graendal in WH. This would seem to indicate that she could have been stilled before being killed, and that the DO had to "unstill" her in the manner of Nynaeve and Flinn.
Obviously M must return, but it does seem likely that she also is stilled, and will require the services of Nynaeve to return her power. Though this time N gets it right and brings her back to at least full strength.
The next question is who is the rescuer? Since Moiraine is currently stilled, she lacks the ability to escape alone, since the tower of Ghenjei is "impossible to escape in the dream world, and only slightly less so in the real world" or some such,so who? Mat is currently very busy in the south, with tryin to hold on to Tuon.
I think a Perrin/Thom collaboration is more likely, since P has found the tower of Ghenjei in Telaranrhiod. He also has unfinished business with Isam/Luc, and could end up stopping by on his quest to find Faile.
In addition, the Snakes and Foxes gives the ways to beat the Finn- music to blind them, iron to bind them.
Thom's music, coupled with Perrin's axe and smithing abilities, and presto- we have our full team of heroes back again to save the day!
5
ejwaard: 2002-11-21
You are also forgetting that Aelfinn and Eelfinn are snakes and foxes. The only way to win at snakes and foxes is to cheat. When Mat went through they said no metal or musical instruments (Thom's daggers and harp/flute). I think it will be Thom for sure.
6
Callandor: 2002-12-12
Ok... everybody can say for sure that the Finn are a tough crowd to get laughing and when you do you dont want them laughing at you. In TSR, Mat goes into Finnland and asks for a way back out. The Finn twist this, even better then Aes Sedai probably could ;-), and they hang him. If Rand wasnt there he wouldve for sure died.
Now with Lanfear asking a way out, who says she couldnt have been killed by them in a another way, maybe being stilled so she couldnt use the OP to escape to live. Then the DO brought her back to life and had to **uhstill** her. This brought her back as a weaker channeler but still very powerful. Think of it like this: if Lanfear was a 20 channeler and lets say... Mesanaa(sp) was a 15 in channeling. Both strong women. But when Lanfear comes back her channeling is a 16. Still more powerful but WAY less powerful then she was before.
And Lanfear was widely believed to be the most powerful female channeler in the AoL from the Guide. Now in the Third Age its harder to say. But from the way the Aes Sedai first react to Nyneave and Egwene and Elyane when they find them and them being the **greatest channelers in the last 1000 years**. And Nyneave matches, or might be a little more powerful then Moghiden(sp). Lanfear is almost certainly more powerful due to all her rivals in the Forsaken (a.k.a. Moghiden (although that could be just do to TAR), Semihrage, Mesanaa).
So it isnt for sure that Moirane would have to be **unstilled** but, as commonly said, you never can tell with RJ. Also if Nyneve healed Moiraine she would most likely come back to 1/2 strength or 3/4ths. She would have to be healed by an Ashaman. If you look at how Flinn healed one of the captured and stilled Tower Aes Sedai in WH they are remarked as **like as she was before**. IE never stilled. Of couse ageless look and such. But when Nynaeve healed Siuan and Leane they were weaker in the OP. I think healing stilling has to be done by the opposite source, saidin for women saidar for men, in order to be brought back to full strength. Another note i forgot to mention was Logain. Nyneve healed him back to when 6 Aes Sedai had to hold his shield, just like before he was gentled. Again opposite source; brought back to full strength.
7
Dynomut66: 2003-04-01
Although this is only slightly related, and I'm not sure if anyone else has said this but, I thought that the laetter from Moraine to Thom wasabout the Red Ajah sisters who had hunted down Thom's nephew, Moiraine had promised to give the names to Thom when he went to Tanchico. However, the letter may also have been relted to love
8
Mairan Sedai: 2003-04-02
There probably was something about love in the letter. Thom's carrying the thing around and rereading it all through CoT. (At least, I assume this is Moiraine's letter. All we really know is that it was from a dead woman, but Moiraine would fit perfectly.)
9
Janstince: 2003-04-02
Oh, we do know that the letter is from Moiraine, because we follow it's procession in LoC.
Anywho, I have a bit of trouble with this whole Aelfinn/Eelfinn thing. First of all, I believe it was Birgitte who mentions something about a treaty with them in TSR. Lemme see if I can find something: nope, it's just a rememberance of old dealings. Curious enough. But the Aelfinn in the beginning I believe do mention some sort of treaty, lemme see: nope, they just had the agreement. Of course, treaty is written on Mat's ashandarei. But then again, who would make these agreements, and where do these guys' powers come from? What exactly are they? And isn't it interesting that no shadowspawn we've encountered resembles a snake or a fox in any way?
But back to the point, what exactly were these agreements made for? The most likely answer is that the *finn agreed to do their thing for us if we agreed not to bring those kinds of implements. 'Course, once Mat has explosives and matches, he could walk in with a match and a bag of gunpowder and nobody would be the wiser until he blew them to kingdom come. Of course, they still have to be there and the doorways must be around for the next turning of the wheel. Either that, or the Dragon will have to get his info somewhere else.
As to getting into the tower. Hmmph, don't know if it can be done. The only doorway leading to the Eelfinn was destroyed, and, as you said, the connection between the two worlds severed. So does the door in Tear still work? If it does, then that could mean that the *finn actually live in separate worlds, and we just group them together because they're both freaky and hate the same stuff. Frankly, I think they have more of a chance of pulling Moiraine from the doorway ter'angreal used to test for Accepted. That must somehow be related to the *finn. Think about it:
1) it feeds off fear
2) what happens is real, and people are lost
3) channeling inside can cause stilling
4) it reads your emotions and turns them against you
Seems like the perfect candidate, if you ask me. The question is, will it work for a non-channeler like Thom if Egwene and all them get together to activate it? Who knows, but as Nynaeve demonstrated, it should be a fair replication of TAR, in which you can get to the Tower of Ghenjei. Since so many people seem to be converging on the Tower now, I think that will be the most likely point of entry, but that's just me.
Also, if the DO can taint the OP, and his minions can be protected from that taint, don't you think he could use it to cure stilling, either saidin or saidar, as he wanted? It's very curious.
10
Hydraan Sedai: 2003-04-02
About the unstilling business; I got the impression that cross-unstilling got the patient back to 100% OP strength. There are many quotes saying that the best things were done with both men and women channeling. Men heal women, women heal men. Remember, Nynaeve healed Logain back to full strength, unless Logain was superstrong....
Maybe Lanfear was healed by a female Aes Sedai, someone who saw Nynaeve do it. Did we ever see Cyndane before Nynaeve healed Logain? Maybe Cyndane was just a stilled Forsaken until Nynaeve figured out how to do it....
I don't thiink Moiraine wrote about love in that letter for Thom; It was more likely to have the Red Ajah names, as well as the way to free her. But Moiraine doesn't herself know how to get free, so it is some obscure clue.
11
HunterofTrollocs: 2003-04-03
I believe she will. In CoS, Min recalls that the only viewing she has ever had that failed was about Moiraine. She was recalling the day at the docks, when she supposedly "died". I also do not think the Jordan would've made such a big deal about her death if something "shocking" didn't happen later.
12
solomonrex: 2003-04-03
We don't know who for certain created Cyndane. If it was one of the Forsaken, I think they wouldn't want Lanfear to be full-strength, and therefore wouldn't heal her completely anyway. Remember, when others went through the doorways they didn't see each other, so Moraine and Lanfear did not necessarily fight to the death. And Moraine does caution that questions (and perhaps requests) about the DO can be dangerous. Lanfear might have made one of those requests, and that may be why she needed to be 'recycled'. All we really know is that the foretellings point to Moraine's return and Lanfear has had a bad time since entering that gateway. Moraine's bond might have been severed from the doorway's destruction rather than instant stilling. But we just don't know.
13
Ryu: 2003-04-03
Nitpick. Mat was dead until Rand cut him down and stuff. Remember "to live and die again"
14
Callandor: 2003-04-11
Nitpick: RJ said that Rahvin being balefired completed the **to live and die and live as part of once was** prophecy.
15
Shadowkiller: 2003-04-08
Just a thought. Could Moghedien nave healed Cydane/Lanfear on Morridin's orders.
Moghedien was linked to Nynaeve through the a'dam when she healed Logain and the other two.
16
Lorddragonwolf: 2003-09-13
i believe moraine will come back. I believe that min had a viewing about a woman thought dead comes back to you. telling this to rand. but i am not sure i will have to look it up.
17
Callandor: 2003-09-14
Min never told Rand about that viewing of him failing without a woman dead and gone; she thought it was useless.
18
rubbernilly: 2003-09-15
It never ceases to amaze me that people do not consider that Lanfear might have been artificially enhanced. I can understand if you don't agree with the theory, but to not address it while at the same time claiming that all the evidence points to her having to be "unstilled" is a bit short-sighted, IMO.
1) Regarding her strength in the power as related to other women: She thinks to herself that Alivia is stronger than she (Lanfear) had been before the Finn held her... and then she uses the curious word of "impossible" to describe that idea. Interesting... it would seem that she *knew* that no other woman could be stronger than her. That's the sort of confidence you would have if, say, you had been enhanced along the lines of a wish... perhaps, "Make me as strong in the Power as a woman can possibly be."
Because of the impossibility of that notion (that Alivia could be stronger than the potential ability of women in general, which Lanfear had been at), Lanfear correctly deduces that Alivia had an angreal.
2) It is mentioned in "Blood Calls Blood" (tGH) - I think that's the chapter - that Moiraine walked around having her ability hidden almost all the time. Very normal course of action for someone who had been enhanced to have greater potential - especially for a woman, since a woman's potential can be known from the beginning of her channeling life and it would not change (like a man's strength does, leaping forward with no visible upper bound).
3) As for the contents of Thom's letter, we know that it had to contain the names of the sisters that Moiraine had promised Thom, but I think there was more. I do not think that she would have said "Help, I am trapped in the Tower of Ghenjei, here is how you can get me out..." Otherwise we would have a stampede of characters rushing off to help her. In fact, Thom is quite melancholy over having caused her death even after receiving the letter. I think that perhaps she was told by the Finn (on her first visit) that she could not tell anyone of her capture without serious repercussions on the Last Battle, so she had to be very circumspect with the information she revealed.
Imagine Thom reaching the Tower for some reason (hooking up with Perrin and chasing Slayer there), and knowing that they have to get inside for a reason other than Moiraine (to rescue Olver, who gets lost within, or to kill Slayer). Thom pulls out his letter, and suddenly understands. You see, I could imagine the letter written like thi:
"My dear Master Merrilin,
I regret what transpired in Tear, but as you came through on your end of our bargain, so will I now on mine. The sisters whose names you required are Elaida do Avriny a'Roihan and Galina Casban. There were others, to be sure, but these two were chiefly responsible for what happened to your nephew. You should not trouble yourself over whether you could have done more for him; the Wheel weaves us all to our own paths. We are the choices we have made-- or the choices we will have to make. We mourn the dead, but we must help the living.
I regret that I may not be able to meet you again after all. There is some chance of that, but there are some difficult matters that I must attend to. You have proven a most resourceful and resolute man, one I sincerely wish to have had the chance to know better.
One final piece of advice. Remember that in matters with the Tower, all of your skills with Daes Dae'mar may not be enough. Your courage will strengthen you, and your iron will will hold you steady and true. What difficulties can befall a simple gleeman trained in music and the eating of fire?
If you would see me again, remember these things.
Moiraine"
I took that from a post of mine in the "Mat's Guide to Finnland" thread
So, standing before the Tower of Ghenjei, Thom realizes that Moiraine wasn't talking about the White Tower after all. She was talking about this one, and she was also saying that she was alive. Now there is an immediacy in her plot line. We *know* she is alive and a prisoner, and we have characters in place who can help.
4) Moiraine has been stilled, but we know that a woman can be healed back to full strength by a saidin-channeling man. Perhaps she will be the catalyst for Nynaeve and Flynn to realize this about their separate healings of men and women's severings. This would be a great bit of character growth for Moiraine and Nynaeve. Moiraine, who must be humbled before Nynaeve, and Nynaeve, who must help the woman she despised.
5) Lanfear was killed by the Finn for being deeply of the shadow and she was resurrected by the DO. He put her in the best body available. Having died, however, she lost the enhancement that made her the archetypical potential of a woman's channeling ability, and she has returned to her former ability. That ability, commented on by Graendal, is still quite powerful, but it is no longer the penultimate that Lanfear had been.
19
rubbernilly: 2003-09-15
Sorry, edit for above:
point #2 should read that "Lanfear walked around with her ability almost constantly hidden...", not Moiraine.
Moo moo.
