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at's guide to Finnland
by WinespringBrother: 2002-11-07 | 5.22 out of 10 (9 votes)
Previous Categories: Moiraine: Where is She Now?
The most important person to be on this trip must be Mat for several reasons.
1. His memories from the foxes included people who have been to the foxes before, since that is where they got the memories from to give him. They will help in strategizing to find Moiraine, and escaping.
2. When Olver first mentioned his Snakes and Foxes game to Mat, Mat realized that he knew how to play the game but he never actually played it. (LOC PB pg 481) Why would that be? Maybe one of the people who provided his memory had invented the game. Just a possibility, and a little irony. His memory could have been playing the real life version of the game and winning by cheating and/or luck (such as Rand rescuing him in Rhuidean).
3. When Mat played Olver, he didn't want his luck to affect the outcome so Olver rolled the dice, just to see how the game would turn out, but if he went there again, he would use his ta'veren abilities to good use naturally.
As for travelling companions, I would think Thom and Olver for the music connection and the Gaidal Cain connection. Mat remembers what happened when Rand was beyond the doorway the same time as him - the palace almost fell apart, and Moiraine insinuated that it was because 2 ta'veren were there.
Therefore, I don't think that Rand or Perrin will go with them. Birgitte and Hopper would make other good candidates, for their apparent knowledge of the place.
What do you think? :]
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2002-11-08
Personally, I am not fond with the idea that Moiraine is still "trapped" in finnland. I know that Thom is supposed to "pull" her out of the "fire", but I just have a problem with any character in the stories even believing that Moiraine is alive (maybe Thom believes, possibly). Min thinks she is dead, and Mat has no reason to believe otherwise. So, while Jordan, as you said, does give us all of these references to beating the foxes and snakes...I am waiting for a reason as to why Mat would even go to finnland in the first place...his last trip wasn't that pleasant? What would you say? :)
Therilon: 2002-11-10
I have a problem with that theory. Mat can't go into the doorway again. He is THE only character that has been through both doorway.
What if some of the Aiel went through that door without telling anyone?
Joje86: 2002-11-12
How is Mat and his crew going to get into Finnland? Mat has been through both gateways once. There shouldn't be any possibility for him to get back to Finnland. But, the Tower of Ghenjej is supposed to transport you to Finnland. Who have we seen involved with the Tower of Ghenjej? Perrin of course, he has been chasing the Slayer into the Tower several times. So I don't agree to the theory that Mat will be the only Ta'veren in Finnland. I belive that the unstability during Mat and Rands earlier journey to Finnland was caused by the gateway Ter'angreal.
Joje out.
Therilon: 2002-11-12
Maybe I should clarify my post. I believe that Mat cannot go into Finnland. He has been through the gates twice.
Rhuidean has been opened to the Aiel. What if some of the Aiel accidentally fell through. Also, what if they jumped back before they could get their wishes? What would that do to the Aelfinn? They seemed panicked at the suggestion that Mat would go back without what he got.
Therilon: 2002-11-12
I'm not sure about this, but has anyone seen the Tower of Ghenji in real life, and not in the TAR?
Tamyrlin: 2002-11-12
Yes, they see it in the first book when passing by boat (Mat, Perrin, and Thom), which is where a foreshadowing comes about with Mat visiting that tower looking for treasure.
oldmanfish: 2002-11-12
Re: #2
Matt has played Snakes and Foxes. It's a common children's game in Randland. The point was, he quit playing, like everyone else, once he realized you have to cheat to win!
We just have to wait for someone to realize the connection between the game and the Finn.
WinespringBrother: 2002-11-12
The doorway to the foxes isn't in Rhuidean anymore. Moiraine had it taken to Cairhien, where it melted in the battle with Lanfear.
I agree that Mat can't go through the ter'angreal anymore. But Birgitte told Perrin that the Tower of Ghenjei leads there also. And she also knows the connection between the child's game and the verse "courage to strengthen". Not to mention that she and Mat hit it off pretty well in Crown of Swords.
oldmanfish: 2002-11-14
Where does Birgitte ever connect Snakes and Foxes to the snakes and foxes?
No one has yet.
Tamyrlin: 2002-11-14
You might consider this to be a connection. I believe this is Birgitte talking with Perrin:
TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 28 - To the Tower of Ghenjei
"Those are the ways to win against the snakes and the foxes. The game is a remembrance of old dealings. It does not matter so long as you stay away from the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn. They are not evil the way the Shadow is evil, yet they are so different from humankind they might as well be. They are not to be trusted, archer. Stay clear of the Tower of Ghenjei. Avoid the World of Dreams, if you can. Dark things walk."
pointyman: 2002-11-15
When Mat and RAND (Tamrylin :P) are going by boat, they see a shiny metal tower, presumably the Tower of Ghenjei. But this is a good bit down the river, after Shadar Logoth, and a long way from the Two Rivers. When Perrin was chasing Slayer through T'A'R, how far did he actually chase him? I assumed he was heading up into the mountains of mist, and not across the Taren. Having said that, I have heard no other mention of any metal towers, so I suppose it must be.
WinespringBrother: 2002-11-15
I think at some point they will find out that Cyndane is Lanfear recycled, and they may think that since they haven't seen Moiraine, that she is trapped there, and alive.
As for why Mat would go there, it makes sense that he wouldn't go voluntarily. But when has that stopped Mat - he tried to leave Rand at the siege of Cairhien but was drawn back by circumstances. He could have been far away from Ebou Dar if not for Olver staying behind. He could have abandoned Elayne to the gholam. And so on.
Finally, Mat has been the one on several occasions to pull Aes Sedai out of trouble, so why not one more.
dionysus: 2002-12-11
Perhaps I'm off based, but I see it as Thom going solo to save Moiraine.
My theory is that Cyndane is Lanfear and Moraine merged together a la Luc/Isam/Slayer, and that the only way to sever the connection is through the tower of Ghenji.
Teth: 2003-01-16
I see it as a small party of people going to the tower of Ghenji. Mat will go b/c he will doscover how to beat the game which maybe the key into the tower since the doorway wont work for him anymore and he has the most knowledge of the place. Perrin will go b/c he has unfinished business with Slayer. Thom will go b/c he will save Moiraine b/c the "fire" he pulls her from will be there whether shes alive or dead. I think Lan will go as well because i think Slayer is his relative that he doesnt know about (Im sure someone mentioned him having a cousin or something, i may be wrong).
I think the Taveren problem that they experienced when they went through last time was just because the Finnish werent used to the amount they were feeding on but they have had a little since then (especially if some Aeil went in) and could probably cope now.
Has anybody thought about the link between Slayer and Lan and this cousin of Lans thats wandering about? Maybe Slayer will lead them into the tower.
Dedicated: 2003-02-13
I think it will be a solo act by Thom. Egwene saw Thom and only Thom pulling Moiraine's stone out of the fire in her dream. Thom has three of the four things you need to cheat the Finns. Courage (he would be going to save his future wife and we all know Thom's courageous anyway), iron (his knives), and music (his flute and harp).
So I think it's Thom that will rescue her by himself. Of you never know in this twisted world we call the Wheel of Time. I can't wait to find out.
Callandor: 2003-02-13
I agree that Thom will go into Finnland alone, but I think that he might have a better chance if Mat solved the riddle, gets the **firesticks** (matches), and gives Thom a few. I HIGHLY doubt that the Finn would know what matches are and that they cause fire.
So then Thom has all 4 things. So Thom, in my mind, will have a little help from Mat, but will go into Finnland solo.
Dedicated: 2003-02-13
I have a question Callandor, help me look this up. Is channelling forbidden in Finnland? I think that there's no reason you couldn't. Maybe Moiraine can add the "fire to blind."
WinespringBrother: 2003-02-14
Rand channeled there - he used a sword of fire to keep the finns at bay.
myste: 2003-02-15
What about using portal stones? You can reach the *finn land by portal stone, I think.
In LoC: "Well,' Olver muttered, 'we almost won. Another game,Mat?' Not waiting for an answer, he made the sign that opened the game, a triangle and then a wavy line through it, then chanted the words. 'Courage to strenghthen, fire to blind, music to dazzle, iron to bind' Mat, why do we say that? There no fire, no music and no iron.'"
A triangle with a wavy line through it, sounds like one of the symbols on the Portal Stones, doesn't it?
Callandor: 2003-02-15
It does sound like a portal stone but in fact its the combining of the doorways. The one in Tear has wavey lines going up the sides of it and the one in Rhuidean has inverted triangles.
One cool thing that people, and I, have been thinking is that the the Finnland is almost like a wheel itself. The Tear doorway leads to a world of pure curves, no straight lines; almost like a circle ;-). And the Rhuidean doorway is ALL polygons, the most common being a 8-pointed star; almost like spokes on hte inside of a tire ;-).
So the theory is that the Tear doorways world exists on the outside, with the Rhuidean doorway world on the inside; and that makes Finnland.
Airplane: 2003-02-15
If I recall correctly Moiraine called those doors gateways to a different world. So then maybe Mat could travel through a portal stone to that world since portal stones are gateways to different worlds. if they could find the symbol of the that world(maybe look on the gateway it self.) then bam mat gets back to finnland and saves the day once again.
Dragons Shadow: 2003-02-16
I think the portal stones may very well be involved. BUT, in order to use the portal stones a channeler would have to be included in the group. Perhaps whoever goes will enter through the tower and leave by way of the portal stones. remember the tower is next to impossible to exit.
solomonrex: 2003-02-24
I think the Seanchan will be involved. Tuon clearly knows some things about the future that she shouldn't- she has arranged to be kidnapped in the past, she looks at Mat knowingly and when she was kidnapped she was strangely calm. In addition, she looks at Mat's lance knowingly and that is one artifact from the 'finn (Aelfinn, Eelfinn?). I would say she has been through another doorway or the seanchan have another route to the Tower of Ghenji. The timing is perfect.
Dedicated: 2003-02-24
The reason Tuon is interested in Mat's spear is because of the ravens engraved on it. Ravens are a symbol of the Seanchan empire, and they have something called the Tower of Ravens in their capital of Seandar (it's supposed to be a prison and torture chamber).
There are two reasons why Tuon accepts her kidnapping calmly. One, (this is speculative) the damane Lydia Foretold it to Tuon. Two, Tuon is a very cool customer under pressure and seems to very good at accepting her situation with a calm demeanor. The Seanchan probably have nothing to do with Moiraine being saved from Finnland.
Janstince: 2003-02-25
I still don't buy the Olver/Cain theory, and I don't think that Mat is going to go into the Tower or wherever, either. However, since Mat has died and is now living again, does that mean he has a second chance at the door in Tear? But one other thing is that, if they use the doorway in Tear, how will that help them get Moiraine? She's with the foxes, and the Tear door leads to the snakes. Maybe somebody can clarify as to how to get from one to the other within the world for me, but i'm not so sure it's possible. And I also think that the Tower of Ghenjei exists as another world in the Wheel, since only things in the wheel have reflections in TAR.
lordofchaos: 2003-02-28
I believe that Moiraine is till alive in this world. What i don't believe is that it's going to be Mat that finds her.
I think Perrin is going to be the one to find her and it's going to be while hunting down Slayer. Perrin knows that slayer is from this world from the advice by Birgette. I think later in the story Slayer is going to push him to far and Perrin is going to go through the tower to get him and while he's in there he is going to run into Moiraine.
Callandor: 2003-02-28
But why would Slayer go back to messing with Perrin? Ever since WH, or a little before, he has been under the orders of someone and he has been going after Rand.
So why would he go back to chasing Perrin and would he be able to find Perrin since hes no longer staying in The Two Rivers?
Dedicated: 2003-03-01
Thom will save Moiraine! Thom will save Moiraine! Thom will save Moiraine!
There, I feel better now. As to the last post I must agree with Callandor. Slayer and Perrin are on different paths now, I don't see why they would meet again. Slayer was in the Two Rivers bringing trollocs and fades via the Ways. Fain even remarks that "Isam had stopped bringing trollocs" after Perrin hits Slayer with the arrow in the wolf dream.
jason wolfbrother: 2003-03-01
But in WH Luc/Isam goes back to hunting wolves in TAR while waiting for him next assignment. This is how Perrin found him originally. They are bound to run into each other. Plus I think Slayer is not one to forget a slight. He definitely remembers Perrin and might go out of his way to run into him again. That being said I can see Slayer leading Perrin into the Tower of Ghenjei in TAR and Perrin finding Moraine.
juitzhead: 2003-03-03
Just from memory, i dont think Thom has made any substantial contributions to the story line. I think the rescue of Moiraine will justify his presence in the books.
WinespringBrother: 2003-03-04
Actually, Thom played a big role in Morgase winning the throne, and presumably had a role in having King Galldrian killed in revenge for his girlfriend dying. Not to mention helping Rand and Mat escape from the fade in Whitebridge way back when. And he played a big supporting role in Nynaeve's and Elayne's travels. Am I forgetting anything?
Janstince: 2003-03-07
Another point to this whole shenanigan theory. Is Moiraine really still alive? We know that if more that one person enters the gateway to Finnland, then they won't see each other, so they must enter into different places. However, we also know that the warder bond does not break if somebody goes into Finnland, or else Lan would've gone on crazy-insane-rampage-guy much earlier, when Moiraine went in the first time. So, if the bond is broken this time, then I think that means she's actually dead. As to Thom pulling her out, well, as Egwene herself admits, "true" dreams are not foretellings, only the most likely possibilities. "True" dreams will not always come true. However, I'm curious about exactly what viewing Min keeps talking about. The one she had of Moiraine that was the only one that was ever wrong. Where is it located, and what's it about?
shadowscross: 2003-03-10
The greatest veiwings of min in relation to Moriene still being alive are in TEOTW pg 181-182 where she talks about everyone in that group being tied into each other, the second one is on pg 194 where she mentions that the group makes starts while they are together, starts fighting the darkness, but with moraine and nynaeve it only takes the both of them to see them fighting the stars, where as before it took at least four of the group fighting the stars. its my theory that everone in the original book has a great contribution to 'the last battle' and they all need to be present. which includes moraine
silverwolf: 2003-03-17
The warder bond might have been snapped when the connection between the worlds snapped. Also, Moiraine could have been stilled at the same time as Lanfear. Just because the bond snapped doesn't mean that she's dead.
Callandor: 2003-03-18
Right. There is no way to be sure weather Moiraine is alive or dead through her bond. I dont think that ANY Aes Sedai has gone to another, basically, dimension with a Warder bond so we have no idea the effects.
Korell: 2003-03-26
Someone mentioned the whole isam+luc=slayer thing and that moraine+Lanfear=Cyndane i dont think that could be for one there is nothing linking slayer with the tower at the time of his transformation now there is nothing in either way with that soo it could be however there is a little part where it says somthing to the effect that Isam waited for Luc somwhere in the blight so it is hard to say how they merged though i guess with the track record perhaps the Finn did it i mean they had somthing to do with Mat getting all those dead mens memmories anyway enough about that also i agree it makes the most sense that Thom will save moraine because of Egwenes viewing and Moraine is still alive because Min has NEVER been wrong before so what makes us think she is wrong now? as for mat not being able to go back to finnland there is nothing to say that he cannot through the tower and as for the suggestion that he would not be involved Thom is travling with him right now so as long as they are togeather that possability stays open just thought i would bring that up.
Dorindha: 2003-03-27
Someone mentioned that a good case against anyone rescuing Moiraine from Finnland is that everyone thinks she is dead, so wouldn't know that she needs to be rescued. I wonder what it says in the letter she left with Rand to give to Thom - she knew the three possibilities, and there was only one possibility (the one that happened) that meant Rand would be reading her letter, and presumably in a position to deliver the letter. We know Rand has now delivered the letter, and Thom is moping over it as if it were from a lover. We also know that Thom's opinion of Moiraine had changed considerably - originally he was very suspicious of her, and going along only to "protect" the Emond's Fielders; and then he started saying how fine a woman she is etc(even if she is Aes Sedai). I think this "relationship" may give some indication of how they know what to do.
Knowing Moiraine, the letter that Thom has will have passages in it which are far from straightforward - maybe it has the sort of clues that you only work out when you see them. In that case, something may happen where Thom suddenly works out what to do to rescue her.
On the other hand, taking into account how much Thom's been going on about how he abandoned a woman to her death (I don't remember what he said, but it is clear from the context that he meant Moiraine) maybe the letter explained a branch of the three possibilities where Thom went into Finnland after her at the time, and he has now missed his opportunity. This idea only works if the scene of Moiraine's "death" was after Egwene had the dream. Egwene's dreams don't seem to be certain at all, just future possibilities, but she's not going to dream something impossible.
WinespringBrother: 2003-03-27
I don't think the letter indicates that Thom 'missed his opportunity.' It seems more likely that he is trying to determine if there will be an opportunity, that he is trying to puzzle out some cryptic reference in her words.
As for the girl who Thom left to die, I think that is Dena, his girlfriend from Cairhien. She was killed allegedly by King Galldrian's minions while Thom was entertaining at Barthanes' manor. Thom wasn't with Moiraine when she disappeared, so wouldn't feel any personal responsibility for what happened to her, and may not even believe she is dead.
juitzhead: 2003-04-01
I've already posted something similar on this site, but i dont know where it ended up, so again:
There are 3 main viewings related to Mat losing an eye:
“Mat, placing his own left eye on a balance scale.” TDR: 37, Fires in Cairhien
“A red eagle, an eye on a balance scale, a dagger with a ruby, a horn, a laughing face “
TEOTW: 15, Strangers and Friends
“...Mat throwing dice with blood streaming down his face, the wide brim of his hat pulled down low so she could not see his wound while Thom Merrilin put his hand into a fire to draw out the small blue stone that now dangled on Moiraine's forehead.”
TFOH: 15, What Can Be Learned in Dreams
I think the above indicates that Mat will be wounded in some way on his face when he and Thom go and rescue Moraine. This will be from Mat voluntarily giving up his left eye as the price paid to rescue Moraine from the Finn. Why would he give up his left eye?
“To give up half the light of the world to save the world.” TSR: 15, Into the Doorway
By rescuing Moraine, he will be helping Rand. He will save the world because Rand will “fail with a woman dead and gone” who is believed to be Moiraine.
HunterofTrollocs: 2003-04-03
i agree with juitzhead's last post. this seems to me to be the indicator that Thom will rescue Moiraine, while Matt makes a deal with the Finns to be able to leave. He will save the world and in essance, defeat the DO. Mat will have the help of Birgitte's memories, but i believe that that part has already come to pass.
My beliefs for Moiraine being alive are these:
1. why didn't Jordan have more chapters or parts of the stories where we were able to see inside Moiraines head?? (these were my favorite parts)
2. why was her presence so abruptly severed from the plot?
3. Egwene's dream happened, and moiraine 'gave her whole life to search and guide the DR' or some quote like that. she isn't finished yet.
it will be thom to find and rescue Moiraine, and Mat who makes the bargain with the Finns now that he knows what to do.
A Wild One: 2003-04-03
Moiraine is dead, just as Lanfear was killed in the land of Foxes. I also believe that it's possible that Moiraine will appear again as a Hero of the Horn to help Rand. This will fufill Min's viewing (whatever that viewing might be). Considering the presumed need for balance in Randland, a hero was ripped not spun out from the group of Heroes and 13 days later Moraine bites the big one. Moiraine who devoted her life to finding and guiding the Dragon (Reborn). Also consider, when the Heroes of the Horn were summoned at Falme they all saw Rand as LTT (The Dragon). Just a thought.
juitzhead: 2003-04-03
Wild One. It is not known whether Lanfear died or not. At the end of WH, we find out that Cyndane is Lanfear, but she we see from her POV that she was "held" by the Finn.
I also agree with juitzhead.
HunterofTrollocs: 2003-04-04
juitzhead,
can you site that part at the end of WH when we find out that lanfear/cyndane was held by the finns??
it wouold be much appreciated.
Callandor: 2003-04-04
Yes Cyndane is Lanfear reincarnated after the Finn held her. We get that in WH during the Cleansing of the Taint.
Moiraine wont be returned by the Horn because she isn't dead yet. Just prisoner.
bojesphob: 2003-04-04
Remember, right before Moraine had her duke-out with Lanfear, she wrote a letter to Thom. Also, remember that she had known that the whole thing with Lanfear was going to happen (Her telling Rand that she wasn't always going to be there to guide him, her giving Lan's bond to someone else, etc.) She told him where and when he was going to save her. As to where that is, one: Matt could go with Thom at the Tower of Ganji (sp?) Two: Mat could lead Thom to the doorway in Tear and from there, Thom would rescue her. Just because Mat had gone through doesn't mean that Thom couldn't.
Mairan Sedai: 2003-04-05
Here's where it says Cyndane was held by the *finns:
"Then the woman struck back at her, and she [Cyndane] suffered her second shock. She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her!"
Notice it says the Aelfinn AND the Eelfinn. I take that to mean there's a connection between the two worlds, so Thom or whoever the heck is going to do this *could* probably go through the doorway in Tear.
Callandor: 2003-04-10
Me, It does sound like a portal stone but in fact its the combining of the doorways. The one in Tear has wavey lines going up the sides of it and the one in Rhuidean has inverted triangles.
One cool thing that people, and I, have been thinking is that the the Finnland is almost like a wheel itself. The Tear doorway leads to a world of pure curves, no straight lines; almost like a circle ;-). And the Rhuidean doorway is ALL polygons, the most common being a 8-pointed star; almost like spokes on the inside of a tire ;-).
So the theory is that the Tear doorways world exists on the outside, with the Rhuidean doorway world on the inside; and that makes Finnland.
I also forgot to say that the Tower of Genjei would be like the rod going through the spokes that connects the wheel to the frame of the bike. So that I think leads the to central part of the Finnland world and maybe the point where the Alfinn and the Elfinn (hope Im spelling those right) worlds meet.
So Mat and Thom could head to their to lead there rescue of Moiraine. All they have to do is get passed the little trick of getting **in** to the Tower, since the Tower doesnt seem to have any markings or openings.
solomonrex: 2003-04-15
About the spokes and rim of the wheel: the Aelfinn and Eelfinn perform two distinct functions and also seem to be related to TAR somehow, since they are not in the real world. I don't think they are another race like the Ogier- they are more like the Fates of ancient Greece, who decide how long people live, etc.
The two Ter'angreal allow the Aelfinn to answer questions and the Eelfinn to grant wishes.
This could be related to the nature of Dreaming: personal dreams vs. TAR.
Perhaps Aelfinn control/manage/access personal dreams (including the useful prophecy-style dreams of Egwene, etc) through which they can answer any question and the Eelfinn have access to TAR, through which they can grant wishes. Yes, Mat's one wish was to fill in the holes of his memories which would be hard to grant using TAR, but RJ said that they picked up what memories they had laying around, so perhaps that request is an exception to the rule. Think about how Mat 'left' the Eelfinn- he simply appeared hung to a tree in the real world- sounds like a trip from TAR. In addition, the doorway that the initiates in the white tower enter has something to do with Dreaming (or TAR or the mirror worlds), and all three ter'angreals are doorways. This would explain why they talk so mysteriously- they are using the language of dreams to communicate with humans.
In fact, they may run the whole place- Aelfinn send prophecies, foretellings and other dreams while the Eelfinn shepherd the fallen heroes to TAR.
Lastly, one more bit of speculation: perhaps Thom can enter the initiates doorway and find Moraine there- who actually does need rescue- but it will actually be Moraine and she can actually leave. OK, so that's crazy, but so is RJ. ;]
YourMaster: 2003-04-21
Another reason the bond may have broken:
Maybe there has to be a physical "line of bonding" between two people. This may seem absurd, but how else can you tell the direction to another person? It was not broken when first Moiraine entered the doorway, because that door was still open to her (note that we heard nothing of Lan commenting that that bond flew away mighty fast in a different direction, which I don't think would be unlikely had this not been the case). When she went in the second doorway, her bridge -- her doorway -- was burnt behind her. The other door is not open to her, thus she is utterly cut off from Lan.
Callandor: 2003-04-22
I would think that the destruction of the ter angreal doorway would cause the bond to sever not just that Moiraine cant go through the other doorway again.
Mathwin: 2003-05-01
I agree with juitzhead as well, but what about Olver? Olver is much more likely than Mat to find out a way to win without cheating. Then Mat might be able to use that solution to figure out how to deal with the Finn.
Or maybe the only way is to cheat. What happens if you bring some of the prohibited items, like musical instruments? Mat made the Finn sweat by being inside the ter'angreal at the same time as Rand...that is not the way things were supposed to be...he could make them sweat again by taking contraband into Finnland.
And if we're cheating, it doesn't matter if he's already been through the portal.
Weird Harold: 2003-05-02
Mathwin said, "And if we're cheating, it doesn't matter if he's already been through the portal."
Cheating isn't a factor in going through a portal twice, it simply isn't possible to use one of the doorways twice -- Mat tried to go back through the one in Tear and it simply passed him through like a normal doorway.
Each (ter'angral) entrance to *finnland can only be used once and another way in has to be found for Mat to get in -- i.e. solving the riddle of how to enter the Tower of Ghenji.
Mathwin: 2003-05-02
Ahem. Sorry about that. It's been a long time since I read the books.
I'll go back and say that while I think Olver and Mat are going to play a big part in this, I doubt Mat himself would actually ever go back into Finnland. And not for some bloody Aes Sedai, pardon my language. There's a bigger chance that Thom and Noam would go and Olver would sneak along (unless Noam has been before).
solomonrex: 2003-05-06
Well, we may not know who's going, but they will almost certainly use the tower of ghenjei instead of the doorways. Perrin is stopped after going around the tower in TAR twice- so three times around probably gets you in (that's when Birgitte warns him). It exists in the real world, so Thom would be able to get to it- and it's easier to escape in the real world, according to Birgitte. Thom doesn't need anyone else- and if he actually has to negotiate with the 'finn, it may be easier if he is alone. Like Moraine, he has also played Daes Daemar, so that makes them the best choices to beat the 'finn in negotiation (as opposed to a simple attack with banned things).
nowhere man: 2003-05-06
The Tower of Ghenjei is the sort of thing that could easily wind up as a climactic convergence point for one of the novels, and a reuniting of the (extended) Scooby Gang, much like Toman Head was. So many people have reasons for going. (I subscribe to the Moiraine-in-Finnland school of thought)
Thom would go to save Moiraine: he's smart enough to put small pieces of information together to figure out what to do with the Tower in the real world. There's also that Min viewing regarding him.
Perrin would be in the area (either the real world or the Wolf Dream) while dealing with Slayer.
Rand would drop everything at even a hint of Moiraine's whereabouts.
Mat would probably be there through sheer coincidence, as he's developing a trend towards saving Aes Sedai from various ill fates. Also, he's had as many dealings with the Aelfinn and Eelfinn as anyone else alive.
Lan would drop everything at a hint of his brother's whereabouts (not to mention Moiraine), and Nynaeve would certainly go with him.
Even Egwene could be there through her TAR wanderings.
Given the rest of them, I wouldn't be surprised to see Elayne, Birgitte, and Aviendha along as well for some reason or another. They could plausibly tag along with some of the other characters, depending on the details of what happens.
Janstince: 2003-05-16
Well, truth be told, we know somewhat how the Aelfinn react to contraband, or at least fire. They cower, they shield their eyes, like they did from Rand's sword. His sword made of Fire. Maybe that's just because Rand was using the OP, but I think Fire makes them blind, music entrances them, and somebody probably put them in iron shackles or cages at one point or another. Like the opening of that stupid game.
Anywho, frankly, I'm not so sure that Mat can't go back into the ter'angreal doorway. Frankly, he's been dead. Twice. I don't care what RJ says, in my book, if you get struck by lightning, you're dead. If your attacker gets balefired and you come back to life, well, that's nice, but you're still dead for a certain amount of time. So really, that's twice Mat has died. Two times. Two. bah, i hate coincidence. Anyway, I vote that since he's dead and revived or whatnot, he can now reenter the portal. Crazy, but maybe true.
However, if Thom entered the portal w/ anyone else, they wouldn't see each other, like Mat, Rand, and Moiraine being in there but not seeing or hearing each other. So, whether or not Mat can use the portal again (I vote yes), if there's gonna be more than one in the rescue party, I'd have to go with the Tower of Ghenjei.
Tyr: 2003-05-29
We know the finns gotta be cheated.
They only way to cheat is to break the rules.What rules to we know of are in finnland?
I think it's go something to do with the "Bargain being met" the finns talk about after the "transacion" so to speak has been fufilled. Find out what the bargain is, break the bargain, and you've broken the rules. The only way i can see of cheating.
Callandor: 2003-05-30
Cheating is like bringing in fire, or iron or a musical instrument, and then Im guessing, having the courage (guts) to actually use it.
Then lets say you could maybe ask for more wishes, or get more questions answered.
Tyr: 2003-05-31
Maybe its finding an unanswerable question, the asking it. Or a ungrantable wish. if the finns cant do that, would there be some consequence?
Weird Harold: 2003-05-31
Tyr asked: "The only way to cheat is to break the rules. What rules to we know of are in finnland?"
Olver: "'Courage to strenghthen, fire to blind, music to dazzle, iron to bind' Mat, why do we say that? "
Birgitte to Perrin: "Those are the ways to win against the snakes and the foxes. The game is a remembrance of old dealings. " (Birgitte also recited the beginning rhyme just befor eher words to Perrin.)
Both the Eelfinn and Aelfinn asked Mat whether he had brought any iron, musical instruments, or lanterns with him.
I think the way to cheat is pretty well laid out and known to anyone who has ever played Snakes and Foxes. All Mat has to do is make the connection between the rhyme and the questions the *finn asked.
heronblade: 2003-06-04
if i remember my mythology, iron is meant to burn an elf. cut them off from their conection to the earth and make them mortal. rj could have got the idea from this? couldnt matt hypothetically use his medalion to get through the door if he pressed it against the surface of the barrier. it has to me made up of some form of the power doesnt it?. plus im sure there must have been a reason for rj to include so much about matt and fireworks- his fasination and experements, mins visions, the gift of them, more visons. its possible he looses an eye while 'playing with fire' or atleast gets burned
rubbernilly: 2003-06-05
So far everyone is envisioning just a one reason, and one-use type trip to Finnland. *Everyone* who needs to be involved in Moiraine's rescue gets together over a pint, reasons out that Moiraine is alive, and decides that now is a right good time to pull her arse out of the frying pan.
And if RJ wrote like that, the series would have been over 7 books ago.
What if the reason for them investigating Finnland was wholly separate from Moiraine?
Perrin and Mat are close enough that they could bump elbows in the night. Let's say they run into one another. Then, what if they were to run into Slayer again, and trace him to the tower. While investigating his disappearance there, Olver disappears. Maybe Olver was riding around the base of the tower, made two circuits, and disappeared on the far side of the Tower (if three circuits are what it takes to get in).
Now they have to go in after Olver... at least, Mat does. Thom fingers Moiraine's note, the pieces finally clicking into place for him. You see, I can see the note saying something like:
"My dear Master Merrilin,
I regret what transpired in Tear, but as you came through on your end of our bargain, so will I now on mine. The sisters whose names you required are Elaida do Avriny a'Roihan and Galina Casban. There were others, to be sure, but these two were chiefly responsible for what happened to your nephew. You should not trouble yourself over whether you could have done more for him; the Wheel weaves us all to our own paths. We are the choices we have made-- or the choices we will have to make. We mourn the dead, but we must help the living.
I regret that I may not be able to meet you again after all. There is some chance of that, but there are some difficult matters that I must attend to. You have proven a most resourceful and resolute man, one I sincerely wish to have had the chance to know better.
One final piece of advice. Remember that in matters with the Tower, all of your skills with Daes Dae'mar may not be enough. Your courage will strengthen you, and your iron will will hold you steady and true. What difficulties can befall a simple gleeman trained in music and the eating of fire?
If you would see me again, remember these things.
Moiraine"
So, standing before the Tower of Ghenjei, Thom realizes that Moiraine wasn't talking about the White Tower after all. She was talking about this one. That can convince him that she is alive, and that he needs to go in, as well.
Now, who will actually find the way in? What about Jain Fairstrider, traveler extraordinaire, who may just have some method of entry tucked away in that SG twisted memory of his?
Just a thought. This is horribly specific, too specific to hope for any reflection in the books, but it is *one* way that people can figure out that Moiraine is alive.
Shadow Bane: 2003-06-17
Personally i think Mat and Perrin wont meet until later...but that is another subject.
This makes sense to me-
What if the original adventurers from the Two Rivers (except Moiraine of coarse) were the ones to find Moi ( i dont know how possibly the way stated in the previous posting)Lan, isnt it obvious? Mat, his business with the Finns, Perrin his connection with Slayer, Rand his guilt over letting Moi die, Egwene and Nynaeve because Moi was their mentor and finally Thom because of the blue stone fire foretelling. These are the reasons i think EVERYBODY will help rescue Moi!
Weird Harold: 2003-06-18
Rubbernilly said, "What if the reason for them investigating Finnland was wholly separate from Moiraine?"
I think this is a wonderful insight!
I have my doubts about chasing Slayer being the catalyst that brings Moi's rescuers to the tower, but Olver running away might be a factor.
You've come up with a plausible scenario and I particularly like your guess at the contents of Moi's letter to Thom.
The only problem with your scenario I see is what brings them to the vicintiy of the TOG in the first place.
Rand-althor: 2003-06-18
Shadow, what does the fortelling about Thom have with him deciding to go? We know about it, but he knows nothing about it. I believe that if Moir is alive (something im not all that sure of) Thom will save her (alone imo) but a vision that he knows nothing about can't influence him to go.
Tyr: 2003-06-18
Isn't it a possibility that Moirane doesn't need rescuing? Maybe she is staying there on purpose.
What if she discovered Traveling while she was in the finns land.Shes had enough time., and she's go nothing else to do. At any point she wishes she could just make a gateway out of finnland to where ever she wants. People made gateways to TAR, to and from, so why not finnland?
That brings up the question as to why she is waiting though.
rubbernilly: 2003-06-19
As to why Moiraine is still in Finnland, I can see only two possibilities, and they both start with the fact that she cannot remove herself from Finnland easily (ie, Traveling):
1) The Finn's are holding her to extract their price from her.
2) She has knowledge of dealing with the Finns, and has chosen to not make a bargain or a request so that they cannot set a price. In this case, she is something of a willing prisoner, waiting and hoping for a rescue she possibly saw through the Tear doorway.
Shadow Bane: 2003-06-19
Maybe this is just me but i didnt think you had to know about a foretelling to make it true. Anyways i still think they ALL are needed to free Moi (if she is infact "captured")
Cambo: 2003-06-20
I have to say that I agree with Shadow Bane on this one. I think that this is the first truly inspired theory we have had on this subject, and the only one that I have read that I am willing to agree to.
In the past i have been pretty amazed that this thread has carried on so long with people arguing so vehemently about something they have absolutly no idea about.
Well done Shadow, nice to see some people making sense!
Tyr: 2003-07-02
We know some, and one what we know we form ideas. That's why its called a theory, possibilities based on things we know. If we knew everything about it it would be fact, and there would be no point in theorizing.
Rhodric: 2003-07-08
TFOH, ch15 What Can Be Learned In Dreams:
"Another Dream. Mat throwing dice with blood streaming down his face, the wide brim of his hat pulled down low so she could not see his wound, while Thom Merrilin put his hand into a fire to draw out the small blue stone that now dangled on Moiraine's forehead"
KEY POINT: this is the same dream. Mat having a bleeding face is related to Thom pulling a blue stone out of fire.
this means that if the blue stone represents Moiraine, then Mat having a bleeding face (probably from balancing his eye on a balance scale) is part of rescuing Moiraine.
i like all of them as part of the rescue, and this dream says these two at least are needed. and since neither Mat nor Thom knows of a link between Finnland and ToG, this adds weight to all the Two Rivers refugees needed.
Anubis: 2003-07-08
1. mat hates the snakey bestads.
2. mat likes thom
3. mat will NOT abandon another woman (important foreshadowing?)
4. moirine is a woman.
mat is deffo goin
Jiana: 2003-07-08
This is kind of belated, but who ever said that a Warder can tell whether the bond is severed, or released? Or if they by chance can tell the difference, who can say what caused the severing? But all that is beside the point. The bond between Lan and Moiraine had been altered. Its design was not to break but to be transferred upon Moiraine's death. Knowing Moiraine, she went ahead and transferred it to Myrelle when she went through the doorway, just to keep Lan from going nuts. So, in short, Moiraine is definitely still alive. And Moiraine + Lanfear = Cyndane? Ummm, I don't think so... :)
Callandor: 2003-07-08
Umm... I think the fact that the Warder couldnt feel the Aes Sedai anymore, and the vengeful feeling they get, if they dont DIE of course, that makes them snap and go right into the heat of battle would make it a little bit obvious the bond was severed or broken.
Jiana: 2003-07-09
Right, Callandor, I wasn't really arguing that point. What I was trying to get across, and guess didn't do too effectively, was this: The Warder bond did not exist in the AoL, so what if Lanfear was channeling something nasty at Moiraine and inadvertently severed the bond that way? Or maybe it happened while Lanfear was trying to slice through weaves Moiraine was throwing at her. Still, Lan can't be sure and certain that Moiraine is dead, because the bond never had a chance to break, because it went to Myrelle.
Rand-althor: 2003-07-09
I dont feel one way or the other about this, so this is just my opinion about this argument in general. It is a pointless argument. Neither of you can make the others believe what you think because all the "evidence" can be interperted either way. Just one example is the woman dead and gone. That could bo Moiraine, or it could be Lanfear, or it could be Morgase. Only one of those three support the argument fore her, and two against, but they are all as likely as the others. No evedence in this is absolute, and so you can never sway the opposition. Face it, poeple who believe she is coming back, will believe she is coming back because they want to. People who want to believe she is dead, will keep believing this unless she actually does come back.
Rand-althor: 2003-07-11
So do I, I just thought it was important for those of these who argue this point to try to prove something that it is impossible. This argument is one of the best Ive ever seen, there is just no real evidence, meaning it can't be resolved, which I don't think most fanatics realise. They just assume that everything should and is interperted to see their point of view, but keep the debate coming.
Great Lord of the Dark: 2003-07-11
I hate adding to an enormously long post that I didn't start, but what the hell.
Callandor pointed out that it appears that people entering or leaving the same doorway, even short intervals apart are separated in Finnland. This kind of screws up any rescue party idea, but still allows a solo mission.
Callandor: 2003-07-11
Doorways it seems yes, but it could be that if entered in the Tower of Genjei it might be different and groups could enter. Although a solo mission could easily work too of course.
WinespringBrother: 2003-07-12
Well, perhaps there is some means for a group to enter Finnland together, like for instance, let's say, The Tower of Ghengjei?
Rhodric: 2003-07-15
Rand-al'Thor, you said:
"Just one example is the woman dead and gone. That could bo Moiraine, or it could be Lanfear, or it could be Morgase."
Min has never met Morgase, that i know have, and therefore could not have a viewing about her.
The only time that Min sees Lanfear and knows her, is at the end of tGH, which is in Min's POV, so it would be likely that we would hear of such a vision.
So it wasn't either of them.
but if you just pulled random names to make a point... ahem. sorry.
anyway my two cents:
if Thom rescues Moiraine, Mat will lose an eye (metaphorical eye or his own) as a result of it. same vision.
and i think thom will do it. he has a letter from Moiraine which we have NO idea what it says. it could say i love you. it could say a list of names. it could say help me, i'm stuck in a parallel world where time and space are different.
but who knows?
Ashaman Ragsdale: 2003-07-17
I don't know if this was mentioned yet, but there is no way to know that moiraine is dead by the warder bond. Because of Rhuidean she knew what was going to happen, she also told Lan that she made arragments to transfer the bond. so therefore there is no way to tell if moiraine is dead because the bond has been passed!
Vaughn882: 2003-07-18
Ragsdale, the bond was to be passed only if Moiraine died, so that Lan would not go crazy and get himself killed. Perhaps something happend in there other than moiraine dying that cut off the bond (and caused it to be passed), but the fact that it was passed leads us to beleive that Moiriane is dead.
ranman38: 2003-07-24
hmm, where to start. First I really like the idea she is in Finnland exacting a bargain that is hard to price. Lanfear certainly would get out as quickly as she could. I believe Moraine is in Finnland, first she went to Rhudien *sp* and she knew several courses her life MAY take. I believe she saw the events and the docks, and knew she may have to make a choice. Forewarned is forearmed. She willingly made that choice, and made plans knowing that she would make that choice. A warder bonded to a woman in Finnland!!???!!? who knows what would ahve happened to Lan? The note to Thom, keeping of a promise, but also a foretelling to him, he may be needed and always be mindful of what and when that may be. Thom will go into Finnland at some point, with music and fire, and certainly courage and iron. Mat will help because of his knowledge. Will he go in? Not sure, but Tuon said her father was a gambler and lost his life to a wager. We know the finns are tricksy, (Gholam reference :) ) so, what if he is in there and makes a fanciful gesture like, "I'll bet my left eye..." The Finns would jump at that I imagine. So, I feel Mat definitely physically loses and eye. Good hero stuff. And he hides it with his hat from Egwene cuz he doesn't want to or can't talk about why he lost it. End result, Moraine is out in time to get to Rand and TG. Possibly to confront Cadsuane? Who knows. The doorways, T'a's symbols are fairly simple, (haven't seen anyone here say this, someone was thinking portal stone signs,) but, squiggly is Snakes and Upside down triangles are foxes, so the dorrway to one side is melted, and Mat has gone throught th other, so I feel the tower of Ghenji is definitely the way they will go. Just my two cents. :)
Mizguidded Khild: 2003-07-24
I like the group going, but I think it will only be Olver, Mat, and Thom going. While traveling they pass by the TOG, Olver asks Mat about it, and Mat mentions treasure. This peaks Olver's imagination, so he drags Mat, and Thom along, they circle the building 3 times, get pulled in, see the snakes and foxes, tells Mat to look, snake and foxes, when Mat sees the finns, he connects them and the game. He wants revenge for what they did to him. Thom askes who those creatures are, and Mat tells him about the finns and how they are how Moiraine "died". When Thom hears what the finns are, it connects to the letter Moiraine sent him, and so he pulls it out, and it mentions how to defeat the finns (the chant from snake and foxes). Thom tells Mat he thinks Moiraine may be alive, and they have to defeat the finns to save her...well that is enough for Mat, and once again he is off to the rescue. Besides this gives Olver a chance to win at Snake and foxes. And for going to the finns for the 3rd time...you can go once to each, the finns take his eye....
Zaela Sedai: 2003-10-06
I just wanted to point out that the Tower of Ghenjei (sp?) is in Randland. I don't have it in front of me, but in I think the Andor section of The World of the Wheel of time it talks of it being between Two Rivers an Baerlon or Whitebridge. This seems like the best way for whoever goes with Mat ( I think Thom and Olver will) to get into finnland again. It only says you can go through the doorways once, not that you can't get there by alternate means. I don't think that they would bother with portal stones since the tower is in the real world, not to mention the fact that you need someone who can channel to use the portal stones.
Jalt Varyd: 2003-10-24
My opinion:
Tower of Ghenji- definitely. Why else is it there? It certainly seems most likely to let in a group and let Moiraine leave.
Thom- definitely. Letter & dream.
Matt- almost certainly. Dream, grudge against the 'Finn, and he could translate.
Maybe Olver will find out the connection between the game and the tower, and try to play real Snakes & Foxes? This could get a party into the tower, and RJ has said he has a role to play. As for the others, I'm not sure- it depends on if RJ wants a gathering, probably.
jackmisfit: 2003-10-24
What if it's really not as complex as everyone thinks.
Moiraine had set up her bond to Lan so that if she died, it would pass to another. Wouldn't the nature of the bond have been set up before she knew that she had to push Lanfear through the doorway? Once the doorway closed/melted, the bond was severed. Either she died or she didn't. Well, we've seen Lanfear again, in a different body, so she died somehow in Finnland, (either involuntarily or voluntarily), and her punishment for being captured was to be put into a kids body with an adult mind.
If Jordan was going to kill Moiraine, I think he would have done something more final than her going through a doorway portal and Lan saying that the bond was gone.
The prophecy about Mat and Thom, the one with Mat having a bloody head and Thom pulling Moiraines pendant out of a fire...
What if the only way to get in the tower of Ghenjei is to make a way in,(like blowing a hole in the side of it like he did in Tear?) Maybe that's how he loses his eye? Thom could then get into the tower and save Moiraines bacon. (an explosion would cause fire, maybe Min's vision is literal, that there will be some big fire in Finnland)
Also, I think she was severed, that's why she can't get out, Lanfear could always commit seppaku and she'd know that she would be recreated by the dark one. I think that Moiraine is a prisoner and at some point, Mat and Thom are going to rescue her. (Mat finding a way in and Thom actually rescuing her)
Cor Shan: 2003-10-25
I agree.
How about having Mat and Perrin metting up in Big Shaido/Seanchan battle, twist chance, find Perrin, Faile, Thom, Olver and Mat running into ToG, away from Damane.
Cor Shan: 2003-10-26
Eerrr, don't take the Perrin and Faile thing. It is reasonable, but it isn't going to happen.
Also:
Quote:
LOC, ch 22 Heading South, pg 481, 2nd paragraph, 3rd sentence:
It was odd how the holes in his memory worked; he could remember how to play Snakes and Foxes, but never actually playing it."
Thus he actually played S&F at a bot in TTR
Did someone else say that earlier?
itsnoteasybeinggreen: 2003-10-27
i've read through most of this i think, but isn't possible that Moiraine gave up the warder bond as her part of the deal? If I remember correctly when a warder dies the sister goes through months or years of suffering due to the loss. Could the same be said for giving up the bond? This could allow Moiraine to still be alive, not have the warder bond and not be stilled. The finns seem to get something out of the 'human experience' so to speak, and these finns in particular make a 'deal' with those who enter their realm.
rubbernilly: 2003-10-27
Couple of things:
Perrin and Mat are (relatively) close to one another, but very far removed from the ToG. Just 'happening' to run there is not only unlikely (of all the places that they could go), but also difficult to imagine sheerly for the amount of time that they would have to be on the run in order to get there. Unless, of course, they traveled, but then... see the first point again: why that place in particular?
Second, it is unlikely that Mat will blow a hole in the Tower in order to get in. I don't like this (or any other 'gunpowder') explanation for the way that Mat will lose his eye. THe nature of the visions we have seen of that event tends to indicate to me that Mat will have an active role in the loss - that is, a choice. He will weigh (the scales) his eye against another choice that he could make.
Presently, I think the most commonly held theory regarding the way to get into the ToG in the real world is that a character would have to travel around it three times. Perrin goes around it twice, looking for evidence of Slayer in the Wolf Dream, and before he can start again, Birgitte shows up and stops him. She breaks the precepts of her existence that one time, which is strange since every other time we see her in TAR she is working with the girls to help them find Moggy. Just this one time she decides on a whim to show up and give Perrin a random warning about the Tower? Unlikely. It's more likely that she saw him about to complete the entry sequence and get himself sucked into the Tower, and that was an event dire enough to draw her out into the opening.
Oatman: 2003-12-30
my idea is 4 ppl goin 2 the tower for every part of the chant thing
courage-perrin(mentioned in many places about perrins courage, courage of a bannerman, courage of wolves etc)
Fire-Mat- workin out illuministsd thing
music-thom-duh
some other dude for iron.
also the key for opening the tower will be somthing to do with drawing the symbol thing which every1 keeps mentioning on the wall of the tower to create a door, mayhaps with help from the 4 required things. dont no why nobody thought of it b4
Mara Tomanes: 2004-01-24
hey everyone, new to the site . . . i read through this and had a thought. I know it says somewhere, probably in WH (i'm at college and don't have my books!) that Lanfear was given more power in the OP than any living AS, or something to that effect. I've always wondered if maybe she was also given great beauty by whoever she got her power from (i'm assuming the DO). Could the 'finns bargain with letting her go be stripping her of both beauty and power, leaving her in her original body? this indicates she wouldn't have died, simply bargained. i don't remember what's said in those few passages mentioning her, and i'm sure it doesn't say anything about her beauty, but its a possibility, at least with her strength in the OP. I suppose it also could be a punishment set on her by the DO when she died, but he didn't do that with any of the other Forsaken, and I think he needs all the power he can get.
Vimmzy: 2004-02-17
Everyone seems to be totally fixed on the fire to blind thing, but is it really fire? in Rhuidean when Mat enters the doorway the foxperson asks him if he has followd the agreement or something similar, then he continues with saying have you with you any means of making light? not fire.. Personally i think the difference between fire and light is quite big, since light is so much more than only fire.
charliec: 2004-02-19
OK, long thread, and I haven't read all of it, so sorry if I go over old ground...
I think it's an interesting problem, and I've got to favour Thom to go on his own to save Moiraine (is it me or have they got something going on? warder potential?), and she may have given him some info in that letter, as well as the names he wanted.
If he's not alone then I would guess for Mat going with him, partly 'cos of his Aes Sedai saving habits, partly because of his knowledge of the Foxes (are they the Ael-finn or the Eel-Finn?). Having been before's not a problem, that gateway's bust remember!
Alternatively, as I've said elsewhere, I could imagine Rand bargaining with the Finn, they could be useful allies...
HawkeWolfe: 2004-02-19
Here's a thought...If Thom is supposed to reach threw fire to get/save Moraine...how did that fire get there??? You can pretty much bet that the Finns did not place fire around her. Remember they do not want anything to do with fire. So...some possibilities:
Lanfear may have placed Moraine in a trap that involved fire, and the Finns could not do anything since they are blinded by this. If true, then maybe they punished Lanfear for doing this.
Or...during rescue of Moraine, when the "keystone cops"(Thom and gang) are using fire to cheat the Finns, there is some problem where the whole place starts to burn down, and Thom has to rescue Moraine before she is hurt.
If anybody else has any ideas on how the whole fire situation develops with the Finns, I would love to hear it.
charliec: 2004-02-20
Good point about the fire, it's got me puzzling... (and thanks for the Ael-, Eel- clear up!)
I like the idea tha Lanfear placed the fire trap, but on the other hand we're not told that the fire is what's keeping Moiraine... it could be that Thom has to get through some danger just to get close to helping her, perhaps some Danger before he gets to Fox-world?
OKflyboy: 2004-02-20
Quote:
Here's a thought...If Thom is supposed to reach threw fire to get/save Moraine...how did that fire get there??? You can pretty much bet that the Finns did not place fire around her. Remember they do not want anything to do with fire.
****
Well, I can't remember if the "Thom putting his hand the fire and pulling out Moraine's stone" was a Min vision or an Egwene dream, but either way, I think you're taking it too literally.
Just my $0.02, but I never thought it was meant to be _actual_ fire, just a metaphor for danger. If it was literal, then he wouldn't be putting his hand in the fire and pulling out Moraine, just her stone... The dream (or vision) was a matephor for Thom putting himself on the line to save Moraine, possibly getting "Buned" (also metaphorically...) :)
Vimmzy: 2004-02-28
exactly, i can't really see that Mat sits in front of the DO tossing his dice either if you get my point, i see the fire as a symbol for a danger that is rapidly increasing or something, you gotta get out of there fast or get burnt.. also about the thom as wardermaterial? i don't really think moiraine or thom for that matter would feel good by the either getting an impression of how the other feels, they are after all both masters at the daes damar. and i just can't see either of them giving something of that up. if that is what you can call it.. dunno if it would effect anything on the other hand
timetorollthedice: 2004-03-05
Just for fun, perhaps Olver asks the Finns to let him win the game Snakes and Foxes without cheating. Would that be considered cheating, since it is something that they can't do?
timetorollthedice: 2004-03-05
Why don't we just all get together and go save Moiraine? We know she's there! Blood and Ashes! And we all sit her wondering if Thom will save her or Matt or no one. RJ is taking his own sweet time getting aroudn to it. Let's get off our seats, burn me! There is a woman who needs saving! Light!
HawkeWolfe: 2004-03-10
This is just for an FYI here is the posting from the question of the week @ the TOR website:
Week 12 question submitted by: Scott P.
Hometown: Fort Collins, CO
Question:
You stated in another interview that Mat's memories came from adventurers who traveled through the ter'angreal. However several of Mat's memories end with the adventurer dying. Since adventurers probably didn't go through the ter'angreal after they died, how could the 'finns have obtained these memories?
Robert Jordan Answers:
A good question. I was wondering when someone would ask that. I expected it as soon as Mat started revealing those old memories. At least a partial answer will be coming up in the next main sequence book, so I guess you could say this is a RAFO. But I will say that if I said those adventurers all entered through the two ter'angreal, I misspoke. A good many entered through the Tower of Ghenjei, which was more widely known in earlier years, if never exactly a household name.
Now it seems fairly clear to me that we are finally going to see someone/someones enter the Tower of Ghenji. Of course who that is is just speculation. I believe that Tom and possibly others will go into the Tower and find Moraine, and right at the most intersting part RJ will end the book and make us wait until the next one comes out to find out what happens. I do not like this line of thought, but I think that will be what RJ does like the whole Egwene kidnapping situation went down. I know he is just laughing his head off just thinking about it. *sigh*
OKflyboy: 2004-03-11
"A good many entered through the Tower of Ghenjei, which was more widely known in earlier years, if never exactly a household name"
Wow, the implications of this are very significant. There's been a lot of people saying "Why would MAT go help Moraine, it's Thom who's got the letter." Well, we now have it from the source that at least a few of the original owners of Mats memories KNEW HOW to enter the Tower on Ghenjei...
Arbryan: 2004-03-11
HawkeWolfe, thanks for the Q and A. I went back and re-read the thread and have come to the following conclusion. Since the thread is so long, I apologize but a few bits and pieces are easier for me to quote in than for you to scroll back for – so it'll be a little longer than I originally intended.
Juitzhead mentioned, “Rand will “fail with a woman dead and gone” which is believed to be Moiraine.” I thought this was without a woman dead and gone, so hopefully it is or you can disregard this quote J.
Mairan Sedai quoted, "Then the woman struck back at her, and she [Cyndane] suffered her second shock. She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her!"
Callandor said, “I also forgot to say that the Tower of Genjei would be like the rod going through the spokes that connects the wheel to the frame of the bike. So that I think leads the to central part of the Finnland world and maybe the point where the Alfinn and the Elfinn (hope Im spelling those right) worlds meet.”
Solomonrex said, “I don't think they are another race like the Ogier- they are more like the Fates of ancient Greece, who decide how long people live, etc.”
RJ stated in his answer that, “A good many entered through the Tower of Ghenjei, which was more widely known in earlier years, if never exactly a household name.”
***speculation***
I've also come across ‘The Tale of Genji' regarded as one of the world's greatest novels, and believed to be the first true novel. The main character's name is Genji and he is known as “The Shining Genji”. Since the tower of Ghenjei is described as a shiny metal tower it is at least a slight correlation. I searched through it for anything that might be meaningful and could only find a chapter that's title translates to “Transience of Life” and then there is a chapter that follows called “Vanishing Behind the Clouds”. The latter is only a chapter title as the chapter was not written – or found – but it eludes to the death of Genji.
Here's where I'm headed with all of this. What if the reason Mat's memories can be of “him” dieing is because the dead passed through TAR and the Tower of Ghenjei AFTER they died? What if Finn'land is where the dead go to be stripped of their memories before being reborn? The exception being the Heroes of the Horn staying in TAR until it's time for them to be reborn and then they go through the ToG.
We know the Heroes of the Horn stay in TAR and Brigitte mentions how difficult the Tower of Ghenjei is to leave. So the dead hit TAR first and we (or maybe just I) can assume that the non-heroes go somewhere from there. I think that somewhere is into or through the ToG.
Here's some other things that this might resolve if it is true.
Why do you have to cheat to beat the Snakes and Foxes? The only way to beat death is to cheat it.
Why would the Finn hold Lanfear and the next we see her she is Cyndane reincarnated? The doorway is gone and she's stuck in the world of the dead. They held her because they hold the dead. No link to the real world means bah-bye. The DO was then able to pull her out. I think this is the first reference we get to a forsaken returning from the dead that discusses what they encountered. The others either didn't speak of it, or if you die normally and enter the ToG you may not remember at all. Lanfear's death was definitely not the norm.
Where is Moiraine? If she too has traveled to the world of the dead in the flesh she can be considered dead and gone, without the DO to bring her back.
I'm sure I've missed some things, and probably read too much into others, but I think it makes sense.
OKflyboy: 2004-03-22
***Quote:
incidentally, what's an RAFO? (sorry, novice to internet forums!)***
*Read *And *Find *Out
:)
charliec: 2004-04-18
A point to make from The Shadow Rising...
Moiraine tells the girls she could wager that she knows the face ofthe man she'll marry better than any of them.
A couple of days later she goes to the Aelfinn and gets her questions answered.
Just after that Thom returns to his room to find her there... while he's having thoughts along the lines of 'fine woman, if she wasn't Aes Sedai' she tells him categorically that Tanchico won't kill him, and that she'll tell him the names of the Reds when she next sees him. Thom's bemused, because he knows she can't foretell, but that's just what she's done.
With the lovely Three Oaths the only way she could have honestly said that would be if the Aelfinn had told her she'd have something to do with Thom in the future.
One in the eye for the Moiraine is dead camp ;)
Zader: 2004-06-25
The question most are asking is how do you enter the TOG. I believe I may have an answer.
If you get 3 answers, or 3 items from the Finns, check what Mat asked for.(TSR chapter 24 Rhuidean.near end of chapter)
Mat asks for the holes in his memory to be filled. Done one of the men growled.
I want a way to be free of AS and the Power,and I want to be away from you and back to Rhuidean,if you will not answer me. Open up a door and let me -" I believe part of Mat's deal is either an open doorway he can use to go back or his ashantei is a key to the doorway.
Callandor: 2004-07-01
**The question most are asking is how do you enter the TOG. I believe I may have an answer.**
A likeable answer is to go around it three times.
**TITLE: The Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 28 - To the Tower of Ghenjei
Two hundred feet the tower rose, and forty thick, gleaming like burnished steel. It might as well have been a solid column of metal. Perrin walked around it twice without seeing any opening, not so much as a crack, not even a mark on that smooth, shear wall. The smell hung here, though, that cold, in human stink. The trail ended here. The man--if man he was--had gone inside somehow. Only had to find the way to follow.**
Interesting to note: Perrin went around the Tower twice, he was going to go around a third time to continue to look for a way in.
And then:
**TITLE: The Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 28 - To the Tower of Ghenjei
Stop! It was a raw flow of emotion that Perrin's mind put a word to. Stop!**
Hopper comes and stops Perrin from going around a third time. Ta'veren chance?
And then, soon after this, Birgitte stops by:
**TITLE: The Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 28 - To the Tower of Ghenjei
"No, archer." She laughed. I only came to warn you, despite the prescripts. Once entered, the Tower of Ghenjei is hard enough to leave in the world of men. Here it is all but impossible. You have a bannerman's courage, which some say cannot be told from foolhardiness."**
Quite a coincidence, that Hopper told Perrin to stop, and all he did was walk around the Tower twice, and Birgitte found enough reason to warn Perrin, against the prescripts, and all he did was walk around the Tower twice.
Plus, three wishes, three ways into the lands, and other references to Jordan's love of three, seven, and thirteen.
Zader: 2004-07-05
Callandor
I reread the passage you quoted. The paragraph prior to it is also interesting.
“Then something glittered ahead, sparkling in the sun, a tower of metal. His quarry sped straight for it, and vanished.”
Chapter 11 TSR. Egwene was in Tanchico, “she took a step towards the square and, suddenly she was somewhere else.” Later in the same chapter, Amys is able to track Egwene down in Tanchico.
This opens another perspective for us. Does slayer have a doorway in to the
TOG or was he perhaps laying a trap for Perrin.
If we take the quote about Egwene “and suddenly being somewhere else,” if we were a bystander watching Egwene, would it not appear to us as if she had vanished. Do you know of any other events linking Slayer with the TOG.
Amys is able to track Egwene, maybe Slayer led Perrin to the TOG and vanished hoping the TOG would occupy Perrin's attention while he escaped.
The reason I believe Mat's spear is a key to the Finns is because if it is not Why did he get four wishes from the Finns. 1/ Memories of the Past 2/ Ter'Angeal 3/ Passage back to Rhuidean 4/ Spear Also what wish requested the spear.
Callandor: 2004-07-07
**This opens another perspective for us. Does slayer have a doorway in to the TOG or was he perhaps laying a trap for Perrin**
Or, he simply left Tel'aran'rhiod.
Genghis: 2004-07-29
if Moiraine were still alive why would her bond to Lan which was supposed to be passed when she died be passed? Moraine had gone into one of the doorways before and we didnt hear anything about Lan which makes me think that the bond was still present.
OKflyboy: 2004-08-21
**if Moiraine were still alive why would her bond to Lan which was supposed to be passed when she died be passed? Moraine had gone into one of the doorways before and we didnt hear anything about Lan which makes me think that the bond was still present. **
Because the doorway was still intact.
IIRC, Lan *assumes* Moiraine is dead. He asuumes this because his bond has passed, but his bond passed (IMO) becuase the connection between Finnland (another dimension, also IMO) was severed when the dorrway burns.
sonofajunkie: 2004-08-25
New to Theoryland. Spent a lot of time reading theories before deciding to join the site.
Everyone seems to be so focused on the Warder bond, wether it's been snapped or not. But doesn't Moiraine explain that the bond is being transferred to Myrelle (i believe), to be held in stead for one who isn't ready (presumably Nynaenve). So the Warder bond really has no bearing on wether Moiraine is alive or not. She knew Lan would never ask to be released from the Bond, the only way for he and Nyn to be together was to transfer the bond. So knowing the outcome of her fight with Lanfear, she transfer's the bond upon the sealing of the door.
lucky with dice: 2004-09-07
we already know mat will "give up half the light of the world to save the world", a foretelling that might be considered fulfiled by giving up half of his sight (by losing an eye) as seen by both min and egwene in different events, egwene dreamed that mat would suffer this woulnd just before thom saves moiraine, therefore mat must be present in finnland when thom rescues the missing aes sedai. as mat has already been through both known gateways we have to assume another route is taken (big metal tower, enter stage left). i personnally think that perrin will also turn up for this a bit late but just in time to save the day and maybe rand too, the multi-taveren effect shaking the tower to its foundations and letting everyone escape. the eventual downfall of slayer/luc/isam will probably occur at the same time.
SugarBullet: 2004-09-07
If jordan keeps his word about keeping it to two more installments, there's a lot that leaves a lot that has been foreshadowed to get done. I'm not sure that perrin will be able to be along for that ride... though matt could be. I seem to recall that in norse mythology odin (who matt is based on to some degree) trades an eye for wisdom... I know there's been alot of speculation that matt loses the eye at the hands of seanchean, but maybe instead he just gets to ask one more really important question. Does that mean the DotNM comes along to meet the Finns?
Callandor: 2004-09-07
**egwene dreamed that mat would suffer this woulnd just before thom saves moiraine, therefore mat must be present in finnland when thom rescues the missing aes sedai.**
No, since both events happened in one dream, they are linked; it does not mean that Mat has to be in/at the Tower of Ghenjei when Thom goes to rescue Moiraine (even though that is the most likely event).
Heron: 2004-09-18
Remember when Egwene had a dream about Mat where he "wasn't quite real" or something? I submit that he has a link to the *Finn using this, the fact that he's the only one we know of through both doorways, the fact that something like half of his memories come from the *Finn, the spear-thing, (Which, BTW, links Finland to Seanchan through it's ravens, perhaps the tower of Ravens has some connection, or the ancestors of contemporary Seanchan had dealings with the *Finn more frequently than on the other side of the water) Olver, (sp?) because of the game, (and the reason he doesn't touch the dice during those games is so that his luck doesn't win the game for them, which suggests a bare possibility) and his having to lose (or at least consider losing) his eye being linked to Thom rescuing Moiraine's ball, Moiraine having been last seen going to Finnland, and maybe there's other reasons as evidence.
Jumai: 2004-09-19
As much as I hate to do this without the quote handy, Moiraine's letter to Rand says sometihng along the lines of her time is done here "except perhaps one small thing that does not concern you."
Rand will probably have limited or no contact with Moiraine even post rescue.
Callandor: 2004-09-19
**Rand will probably have limited or no contact with Moiraine even post rescue.**
Not quite.
**TITLE: Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 53 - Fading Words
I hope that Egwene and Aviendha have survived unharmed. You see, I do not know what happens in the world after, except perhaps for one small thing which does not concern you.**
She doesn't know what happens after the docks. But that doesn't mean she won't take part in future events.
brother of Battles: 2004-09-20
I just have one question. If Mat is to be part of Moiraine's rescue party, why didn't Egwene dream of him? It is my belief that Thom is going to be the only one who will rescue Moiraine. If anyone else had anything to do with it, Egwene would have dreamed of more then just Thom. And she will be rescued and still be there for Rand, because of the Viewing Min had of her helping Rand at the last battle.
Callandor: 2004-09-21
**If Mat is to be part of Moiraine's rescue party, why didn't Egwene dream of him? It is my belief that Thom is going to be the only one who will rescue Moiraine. If anyone else had anything to do with it, Egwene would have dreamed of more then just Thom.**
Umm... she did.
**TITLE: Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 15 - What Can Be Learned in Dreams
That was her way out. Some of the Aes Sedai in the Tower thought that she might be a Dreamer, a woman whose dreams foretold the future. She did have dreams that she knew were significant, but learning to interpret them was another matter. The Wise Ones said the knowledge had to come from within, and none of the Aes Sedai had been any more help. Rand sitting down in a chair, and somehow she knew that the chair's owner would be murderously angry at having her chair taken; that the owner was a woman was as much as she could pick out of that, and not a thing more. Sometimes the dreams were complex. Perrin, lounging with Faile on his lap, kissing her while she played with the short-cut beard that he wore in the dream. Behind them two banners waved, a red wolf's head and a crimson eagle. A man in a bright yellow coat stood near to Perrin's shoulder, a sword strapped, to his back; in some way she knew that he was a Tinker, though no Tinker would even touch a sword. And every bit of it except the beard seemed important; the banners, Faile kissing Perrin, even, the Tinker. Every time he moved closer to Perrin it was as if a chill of doom shot through everything. Another dream. *Mat throwing dice with blood streaming down his face, the wide brim of his hat pulled low so she could not see his wound, while Thorn Merrilin put his hand into a fire to draw out the small blue stone that now dangled on Moiraine's forehead.* Or a dream of a storm, great dark clouds rolling without wind or rain while forked lightning bolts, every one identical, rent the earth. She had the dreams, but as a Dreamer she was a failure so far.**
Since no period seperated the two incidents (and the "while" includes it), the events are at least linked.
Robb44: 2004-10-05
Mat will some how be involved in the rescue, as will Olver. But RJ said in an interview that Olver is not Gaidal Cain
fistandantilus: 2004-10-25
With Mat's crew moving in the general direction of Perrin's army, there is a chance that they will end up going to 'Finnland together. I think perrin will end up chasing Luc/Isam/Slayer to the tower of Genji(sp?), and bring Mat and Thom with him. From there it is not a big leap to think that not only will Slayer be taken care of, but Moiraine will be rescued, if she is even held captive. I personally think that with the doorway destroyed, M is trapped in the Tower and cannot find her way out.
wotPsychOx8: 2004-10-26
when 2 people have entered finnland, they cannot see eachother(moir,rand,mat didnt see eachother in the stone of tear). lanf and moir were channeling when falling through and channeling may have adverse affects on ter'angreal which caused it to melt. now, with no doorway back to randland, what are the finns to do with the 2 who have come through and cant return? mat said they looked like they wanted to eat him when growing uneasy when he and rand and moiraine were there. I believe they were eaten before getting their wishes.
brother of Battles: 2004-10-27
Rand, Mat, and Moiraine didn't enter the door way in Tear at the same time. That would be like them going to L.A. by way of the I-10. Just because you used the same means to get somewhere doesn't mean you will see each other when you get there.
Your right Callandor, I see now that Mat will help Thom rescue Moiraine. Besides that quote of Egwene's dream, there was also there conversation in Salidar that had something to do with abandoning women in their hour of need. That kinda sorta sound like forshadowing to me.
I will also, going off that quote about Mat throwing the dice while blood is streaming down his face, that is when Mat is going to lose an eye. Somehow while he and Thom are in Finnland, something is going to happen to Mat's eye which is going to cause him to take a big risk, or "gamble", to either get back to the 'Finns or create a diverstion to get Moiraine out of whatever trouble she is in.
Cramernutz: 2004-12-14
This is my first time posting on this site. I've read through all the replies on this thread and i've noticed that all of you are saying that Moiraine had Lan's bond set up to be passed to Myrelle after she went through the doorway in Tear. She actually set it up before TGH.
Title: The Great Hunt
Chapter: 22-The Watchers
Moiraine said "I see my death in every day, as you do. How could I not, with the task we have followed these years? Now, with everything coming to a head, I must see it as even more possible."
For a he [Lan] studied his hands, large and square. "I had never thought," he said slowly, "that I might not be the first of us to die. Somehow, even at the worst, it always seemed..." Abrubtly he scrubbed his hands against each other. "If there is a chance I might be given like a pet lapdog. I would at least like to know to whom I am being given."
"I have never seen you as a pet," Moiraine said sharply, "and neither does Myrelle."
"Myrelle." he grimaced. "Yes, she would have to be Green, or else some slip of a girl just raised to full sisterhood."
In the book it doesn't say exactly when Moiraine confronts Myrelle with this, but you can assume it's before Moi and Lan are at Adeleas and Vandene's place in the borderlands.
As far as the rescuing of moiraine, I among alot of people would like to see what's in moi's letter to thom, before I make any valuable assumptions as to whether moi is dead or alive and if thom and gang figure out that she needs to be rescued.
Aiel Finn: 2004-12-17
Moiraine doesn't neccesarily need to be dead for Lan's bond to have shifted. She could have just done it to keep him from following her. She threatened to in TDR when they were chasing Rand to Tear.
WCDWarder: 2005-01-20
I just found this site and read every single post for this theory. (Incidentally, my head now hurts.) I agree with the apparent majority that Moiraine is alive and that Thom and Mat will save her by entering the ToG. I do, however, have a couple of questions that just aren't answered well enough for me.
First, what about the passing of the Warder bond? I have read opinions that suggest that the destruction of the doorway to Eelfinn-land destroyed the bond. That just seems too convenient for RJ. He usually has a better explanation than that (though not always). I thought Moiraine may have somehow triggered the mechanism to pass the bond at the last second, knowing she was about to be lost for some time. But although she has been very capable in the past, it seem very unlikely that she would have the presence of mind to trigger the passing of her bond at the last second shile engaged in a melee with a Forsaken.
Unfortunately, I have no good theory as to how the bond passed just as Moiraine went through the doorway. I am forced to believe that maybe RJ did take the easy way out and force the passing of the bond through the doorway's destruction. Anybody else have a better theory?
Second, regarding the ToG, the theory that someone enters by walking around it three times has a very definite flaw. In all of their travels, couldn't it be said that many of the characters already literally traveled "around" the tower three times, albeit from a very long distance? Why would it make a difference that they circled it three times within 10 feet or so rather than within 1,000 miles? This may be overly-technical, but without any proof more substantial than a wolf and Birgitte stopping Perrin after two circuits, I can't see why the three circles theory working. Moreover, isn't that just a very inconvenient way to enter a tower. Presumably, someone entered it often enough to create some sort of door rather than circle three times every time they entered. Besides, we've only seen the ToG up close in T'A'R. While that is supposed to be an accurate reflection of the real world, maybe something didn't translate that well. Or maybe Perrin just didn't see the trap door a few feet away that lead to a tunnel that allowed entrance. I bet we will all be surprised when RJ finally reveals how to enter the tower.
If anyone has any other theories on these issues, please clue me in.
Yaga Shura: 2005-02-19
Everybody seems to assume that the Tower of Ghenjei will be involved in Mat getting to Finnland to rescue Moiraine because he can't use the doorway again, having used it once. But, before Moiraine, nobody had been to the Eye of the World twice.
The Eye of the World, Ch.49, The Dark One Stirs: "You, Moiraine Sedai, are more than surprise. When this place was made, it was made so that none could find it twice. How have you come here?"
No theories or anything, but i justthought I'd remind you alll of that.
Callandor: 2005-02-20
**But, before Moiraine, nobody had been to the Eye of the World twice.**
Moiraine in effect cheated the system. Her first time she presumably went with her own need. This need is used just like the Wise One's utilize Tel'aran'rhiod (as well as Elayne and Nynaeve). Once a place is found by this it cannot be found by the same need.
However, that is subject to the need based on the person.
In the first run, Moiraine "used up" her need in finding the Eye of the World. In the second time, Moiraine played no part whatsoever in finding the Eye, other then two things:
1. She informed Rand and co. of how the need makes the trip to the Eye.
Example:
**TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 49 - The Dark One Stirs
"Then we will continue to hunt until we do find it. The Green Man senses need, and there can be no need greater than ~ours~. ~Our~ need is the hope of the world."**
2. Moiraine was apart of the group that reached the Eye.
By this you can see quite clearly (or should be able to) that Moiraine told the rest of the group what they needed to do (skip the pun): to know that it was the need that makes them go to the Eye of the World and that they had said need.
This is further refined, if you look at the effects in and around the area of the "Eye". It acts just like Tel'aran'rhiod with the need system of finding, what about others? Well, in Tel'aran'rhiod, time moves slower or faster than normal for people or ~groups~ in the same area. They experience time the same, but someone somewhere else in Tel'aran'rhiod may experience time totally different at the same "moment". The same can apply to the Eye. The need used, bring the entire group to the Eye. Hence, how Moiraine cheated the system -- she used the groups need, and was apart of the group.
Also, if Mat were to entre the Tower of Ghenjei, it might not be cheating at all. Moiraine says that one can only use the doorways once; the Tower could be a third means.
WinespringBrother: 2005-02-20
"Second, regarding the ToG, the theory that someone enters by walking around it three times has a very definite flaw. In all of their travels, couldn't it be said that many of the characters already literally traveled "around" the tower three times, albeit from a very long distance?"
Travelling around the Tower from miles away is not travelling around the physical circumference of the Tower, due to the curvature of the planet. You have to travel around the Tower on the same exact 3 dimensional plane - i.e. on the same elevation above sea level - around it in order to enter. That's very hard to do from a long distance away.
Aelfinn: 2005-03-03
**Travelling around the Tower from miles away is not travelling around the physical circumference of the Tower, due to the curvature of the planet. You have to travel around the Tower on the same exact 3 dimensional plane - i.e. on the same elevation above sea level - around it in order to enter. That's very hard to do from a long distance away. **
Or maybe you have to be within a certain distance of it. I wonder, what would happen if someone was OP lifted CNTower height above Ghenjei and then followed thrice the same path that one would use on the ground to circle the tower?
You know it's time for the next book to come out when we're discussing what exactly constitutes "circling" the tower of Ghenjei.
Yaga Shura: 2005-03-04
"Hence, how Moiraine cheated the system -- she used the groups need, and was apart of the group."
Is this to say that whatever warding-thing was created to prevent the Eye from being reached twice considered the entire group as a single entity? That sounds very far fetched, even by my standards. Far more likely is that it wasn't impossible at all, but everyone thought it was.
Callandor: 2005-03-04
**Is this to say that whatever warding-thing was created to prevent the Eye from being reached twice considered the entire group as a single entity? That sounds very far fetched, even by my standards. Far more likely is that it wasn't impossible at all, but everyone thought it was.**
The place where the Eye of the World was, is a part of Tel'aran'rhiod. That is how it is found -- via need. The same technique is used by the Aiel Dreamwalkers to find new holds, as well as Elayne and Nynaeve to find the Bowl of the Winds. The Aiel Dreamwalkers even state that using need for the same object has never been heard of before (but that is most likely the same need, from the same people, for the same object -- quite different from Rand and co.'s situation).
People, when in groups, in Tel'aran'rhiod share the same reactions to the world as they should. They experience the same time rate, location, physical features, traveling, etc. There are multitudes of examples of this throughout the books -- most relevant ones are when Elayne and Nynaeve along with the Salidar Aes Sedai of the Hall go to the White Tower, all together in a group, to find information. RJ himself has said that time in Tel'aran'rhiod is totally random, and experienced differently for every person, except if they are in the same group together.
Hence, how the group need is viable for finding the Eye, and how Moiraine "cheated" the system. There wasn't anything guarding the Eye in finding it -- anyone could. As long as two things were true:
1. They had a big enough need.
2. They had not visited the Eye more then once.
Notice how the property of the Eye to not be visited by anyone else, matches up exactly like utilizing need in Tel'aran'rhiod. Put that together with the ability to travel together in a group with the same properties.... Well, I can't get any more explicit ;)
ssjx7squall: 2005-04-03
I tend to agree with most people here that moiraine is not dead. To me it seems likely that she is trapped in finnland and maybe not all agaisnt her will which may explain why she hasnt escaped sense most of you think she is completely capable of that. As for thom and mat going their to rescue her i dont really agree. I think mat will go to the tower with thom taggin along with saving moiraine farthest from their minds. To them she is dead i think the reason for them going period will be mats revenge. People here no offense seem to think that mat will go there to rescue her which i think is bull because as far as we know he hates AS more than anything. and as for the images ya i think thom will play a big part and the whole theory of mat trading his eye in one way or another is really interesting. oh well just adding to the thoery
JakOShadows: 2005-05-08
ssjx7squall:
I like what you said about Mat not liking Aes Sedai at all. But he doesn't seem like he has much motivation to get revenge on the finns. You are right that he wouldn't go purely to rescue Moraine, something would have to draw him and Thom there.
Aiel Finn: 2005-05-09
What if Tuon was told of the "shining tower" or something of the like in a prophecy or an omen. She would then be set on going in, and Mat, being the chivalrous man that he is, wouldn't let her go alone knowing what it is.
JakOShadows: 2005-05-09
Aeil Finn:
That's a good thought. She's probably the single person right now who has the most control over him. I just wonder what her incentive would be to go there. The only way I could see it happening is if they wander around the wilderness for a while, stumble upon, and decide to walk and take a look. If you could find a reference in the book to anytime she might think about it, then you would have a fairly good case. Maybe its one of the prophecies of Mat she has that hasn't been mentioned yet. I just don't see evidence for a motive.
Aiel Finn: 2005-05-09
That's where I was going, either they wander over to the tower, or Mat is telling her about his adventures and tells her about the 'finns and the tower. The only motive that I can see is either a prophecy or some sort of superstition (omens) that tell her to go to the tower. At that time, I think that Mat will put two and two together and figure out the way to beat the finns.
Kantuna: 2005-05-22
Just expanding on the Mat/Tuon/TOG thought here.
Tuon says that her father was a gambler and died making a bargain, or something like that. Tuons father was Seanchan royalty, so what if Seanchan is like Mayene. For example, maybe the seanchan royalty have a doorway ter'angreal that takes them to Finnland. Like Mat, Tuons father made a deal but didn't set a price, and this time there wasn't anyone there to save him from death. Tuon is also Seanchan royalty, so she could go through a doorway to the Aelfinn, and ask some questions. She could ask about what was going to happen in their homelands (Randland) and find out about the kidnapping (Explaing her calmness,) and about how she would come back to Finnland through the Tower of Ghenjei. That would give her a reason for going there, and Mat, Thom, Aludra and co are with her. Then they go in, following Tuon, and find Moirane somewhere. They would then have everything needed to get her out.
Iron - Mat, Thom, etc.
Music - Thom.
Light - Aludra (Fireworks).
Courage - All of them.
Just a thought, if a bit detailed.
Kantuna: 2005-05-22
Here's even more to add to my last post.
If the Seanchan do have the doorway ter'angreal, then it would make sense of all the ravens. Mat's Ashanderai has Ravens on it - maybe because the Seanchan Royalty went through and got gifts those gifts had ravens on too. And as only the royalty would be allowed through, it would make sense that the raven was made their royal sign.
Here's another thought. If teh Seanchan do have Doorframe ter'angreal like there are in Randland, it would make sense to have an equivilant of the Tower of Ghenjei there as well. For instance, a tower representing the Finns, with their symbols of Ravens. Anyone thinking what i'm thinking here - a Tower of Ravens as a gateway to Finnland. None of the Seanchan seem to know what happens there except that it's very cruel and painful.
Somebody (Can't remember who, sorry,) said that Finnland could be where dead people went after dying and going through TAR, so that would seem pretty cruel and painful to me, being stuck there for the rest of your life.
I don't think that any of this has any bearing on the story at all, but it's an interesting line of thought.
drz1649: 2005-05-23
Just to build on this theory:
====Re: Mat's guide to Finnland
my idea is 4 ppl goin 2 the tower for every part of the chant thing
courage-perrin(mentioned in many places about perrins courage, courage of a bannerman, courage of wolves etc)
Fire-Mat- workin out illuministsd thing
music-thom-duh
some other dude for iron.
also the key for opening the tower will be somthing to do with drawing the symbol thing which every1 keeps mentioning on the wall of the tower to create a door, mayhaps with help from the 4 required things. dont no why nobody thought of it b4
====
I agree with Thom for the music, and his association with Moiraine by Egwene's dreams.
Mat for his knowledge of the Finns and presumed future discovery of gunpowder.
Not sure about Perrin for courage. Nothing really links him that strongly to Moiraine, though his TAR abilities would allow him to reach the TOG easily.
And how obvious is it that Lan will be the bringer of iron? Moiraine's former warder, a brilliant swordsman, a man who would do anything to rescue her? Plus he has Nynaeve to get him to the TOG.
Of course there are problems with getting the characters together or even communicating, but these are the characters most obvious from the Snakes and Foxes jingle.
JakOShadows: 2005-05-24
Kantuna: That's an interesting thought. And I would be that if Rand was making a deal with the Seanchan, that Tuon would want to be there. This would bring Mat there and he would be in the vicinity of the Tower of Ravens. And if its used for torturing prisoners, then Mat may be put in there with Thom and his companions. This would allow them to free Moraine if it is a ter'angreal to the tower of genji. So it would make for some interesting circumstances.
Yaga Shura: 2005-05-24
"This would bring Mat there and he would be in the vicinity of the Tower of Ravens"
The Tower of Ravens is in Seandar, on the Seanchan continent. RJ has explicitly stated that none of the main characyers will go to Senachan.
wotdafa: 2005-06-22
One point that nobody seems to be making is that you can bind with words as well as physically. Wondering whether the quote on mat's ashanderei (?) "thus is treaty made" is something like this - a way to be out of there that the Finns can't argue with?
Also, really liked the theory about TOG being a point for the afterlife. Surprised nobody's mentioned it, but would be a fantastic concept.
JakOShadows: 2005-06-23
I do think that thing with the tower of the ravens is interesting, but they won't go over to Seanchan lands. And I also believe that all the people that will save her will be with Mat and maybe Perrin if they meet up in the next book. But anyone else would be hard to contact or they would be incredibly lucky to get there. I believe it will be Mat, Thom, Aludra, and Tuon. Mat for steal, Thom for music, Aludra for light, Tuon for courage. They all seemerd tied together far more closely than anyone else.
First Selector: 2005-06-25
After reading various other theories and looking over the game of Snakes and Foxes I think that Mat has a way to get in, have Thom save Moiraine, and get out.
The opening statement that Olver wonders why they say it : "Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to dazzle, and iron to bind." I'm pretty sure that bringing these to Finnland is "cheating." And the only way to beat Snakes and Foxes is to cheat.
This all adds up to Mat (courage) taking Aludra (fire), Thom (music), and Juilin (iron swordbreaker). Once through the TOJ, Thom will save Moiraine and the crew will escape.
As a note, when Rand made the fire sword in TDR, the finn were afraid of it.
leitan sedai: 2005-09-16
Therilon, I'd like to respond to your qualms with mat going through the doorway b/c he's already been. Sure, the agreement for the doorways was that each person can only go through once. AS such, mat couldn't use that route again. However, the doorway melted in Moiraine's battle with Lanfear. So it's not going to be used on his part either way. The tower, however, is still an option. It might be virtually impossible to get out once you're in, but it is another route to follow into finnland.
leitan sedai: 2005-09-16
Sorry to disagree, therilon, but the doorway in rhuidean is melted. the other one is deep in the tower, so the aiel are unlikely to fall into that one. the only path readily available to most of our heroes is the tower.
leitan sedai: 2005-09-16
I agree that the inverted triangle and wavy lines sounds like a portal stone's symbol. The two doorways being marked with triangles and lines just emphasizes the connection. Perhaps Thom, Mat, and/or whoever goes in (using the tower?) will actually have Moiraine take them out using the stone. Although, was she strong enough to use the stones? I seem to remember some reference to her lack of strength when Rand used them.
leitan sedai: 2005-09-16
Tuon's calm could also be her reliance on omens. Remember, she's still under the veil because she's been reading omens in just about everything she sees. Besides, she's been interested in Mat from the beginning and can take care of herself.
icspots: 2005-10-15
"Sorry to disagree, therilon, but the doorway in rhuidean is melted. the other one is deep in the tower, so the aiel are unlikely to fall into that one."
The doorway from Rhuidean melted in Cairhien while on the way to Tar Valon. Isn't the second doorway still in the great holding in the Stone of Tear. It's still unlikely that any Aiel could fall into i there though.
"Perhaps Thom, Mat, and/or whoever goes in (using the tower?) will actually have Moiraine take them out using the stone. Although, was she strong enough to use the stones? I seem to remember some reference to her lack of strength when Rand used them."
I think you're thinking about Verin's quote to Rand in the Great Hunt (don't have the book with me so can't give an exact quote) She basically said that she would be burned to a crisp before she held enough power to use the portal stone.
Anuzan: 2005-10-16
Warning: Knife of Dreams Spoilers
Come on guys (and girls) even olver knows more about the finns than u do.
he is the one that told mat that he can go back to finnland by going to the tower of genghi (sorry if the spelling is wrong, i cant find my copy) and writing the correct symbol and a door will appear for them.
So that means that mat can go and help Thom and two others save Moiraine accourding to the letter that she sent to thom.
LeriS: 2005-10-28
Maybe Moiraine was wrong, and the instability in the palace wasn't actually caused by the presence of two ta'veren, but rather by the presence of two people who could channel (i.e., Rand and Moiraine)? That might explain why the Rhuidean doorway melted, since Moiraine and Lanfear were both actively channeling as they fell through. Just a thought.
WinespringBrother: 2005-10-28
I have an idea it might be Mat, Thom and Olver. Otherwise Olver hasn't much of a purpose in the series. I think they will all go to the TOG and Olver will be supposed to stay outside, but being a child, will go in ahead of everyone and they will chase him to try to rescue him, or will tag along without permission. He has always wanted to beat the Snakes and Foxes, and has incentive, if not as much as Mat and Thom to go there.
Tristin: 2005-10-28
yeah but to be fair Noal doesn't have much of a place either without going along.
Callandor: 2005-10-30
**I have an idea it might be Mat, Thom and Olver. Otherwise Olver hasn't much of a purpose in the series.**
He's a red herring and proved to be the link between the Tower of Ghenjei and the rescue. He's more than done his purpose in the series.
And, again, Moiraine said "man", not person, boy, child, or anything else.
beslan13: 2006-05-13
ok the link between luc/isam and lan is luc is lans cousin and the luc/isam link with rand is isam is rands uncle
Callandor: 2006-05-14
**ok the link between luc/isam and lan is luc is lans cousin and the luc/isam link with rand is isam is rands uncle**
You just have the names reversed:
Isam is Lan's cousin. Luc is Rand's uncle. Isam and Luc are the two aspects of Slayer.
sogoloth: 2006-05-16
Slayer is:
Kerry King, Jeff Hanneman, Tom Araya, and Dave Lombardo
I saw them in concert several times. AWSOME.
Heartstone Hunter: 2006-07-18
I believe that Matt, Perrin and Thom will all have some aspect of rescuing Moiraine, and that Slayer will be involved. The only way to defeat those slippery critters is to cheat. Matt certainly has no qualms about bending the rules. I remember reading somewhere that Perrin will kill some important person... either whitecloak, false dragon, or I believe Slayer. And since Perrin has something personal against Slayer, I believe he will take him down! That said, I think that the trio has to get by Slayer when entering the tower. All of them will break the rules by bringing/sneaking the (3) things not allowed, or by wishing for them while in there and then having to find another way out. I think Matt will be able to get around not being able to go in again, as he died and can therefore enter again. I think the memories that he has will give him the strategy to succeed. Another idea is that those (3) items stand for (3) different people. Perhaps the music is Thom, the steel is Perrin (blacksmith) and then who would be the fire aspect?
BigBlade: 2006-10-04
It would be interesting to see what would happen if Mat rolled the dice when him and Oliver play snakes an foxes. Maybe Matt would win even though it is impossible.
JakOShadows: 2006-10-05
BigBlade:
I think that it is impossible to lose snake and foxes if you are the snake and foxes. At least, with Mat's luck he would drag out the game or make it really quick depending whose side he's rolling the dice for. But the way it is explained the snake and foxes will always win unless you cheat(which is symbolic of how Mat will escape/defeat the finns).
TheDragonMustLive: 2006-12-23
Okay everybody, don't we all realize at this point that it's going to be Mat, Thom, and Noal (who may or may not be Jain Farstrider). Thom is obviously the music, Noal would be the steel, and Mat, who already has a limited knowledge of fireworks and looks to be learning more, is the fire. He just needs to siphon some more information off of Aludra (which could be difficult now that he's a married man).
twomoons: 2007-02-27
***Okay everybody, don't we all realize at this point that it's going to be Mat, Thom, and Noal (who may or may not be Jain Farstrider). Thom is obviously the music, Noal would be the steel, and Mat, who already has a limited knowledge of fireworks and looks to be learning more, is the fire. He just needs to siphon some more information off of Aludra (which could be difficult now that he's a married man).***
Thank you.
WolfWarder: 2008-01-25
The question most are asking is how do you enter the TOG. I believe I may have an answer.
The same way you open the game..3 times around the tower and then the sign of the triangle with the lines through it.
I have not read all the theories but none so far linked the opening of the game to the entry into the ToG.
Marie Curie 7: 2008-02-01
WolfWarder:
"The question most are asking is how do you enter the TOG. I believe I may have an answer.
The same way you open the game..3 times around the tower and then the sign of the triangle with the lines through it.
I have not read all the theories but none so far linked the opening of the game to the entry into the ToG."
~shrug~ Perhaps nobody has mentioned it because Olver specifically told us the answer in Knife of Dreams:
------------
TITLE: Knife of Dreams, CHAPTER: 10 - A Village in Shiota
Thorn shook his head. "She says you know, Mat. 'Mat knows the way to find me.' I doubt very much she'd have written that on a whim."
"Well, I can't help what she says, now can I? I never heard of any Tower of Ghenjei until tonight."
"A pity," Noal sighed. "I'd like to have seen it, something Jain bloody Farstrider never did. You might as well give over," he added when Thom opened his mouth. "He wouldn't forget seeing it, and even if he never heard the name, he'd have to think of it when he heard of a strange tower that lets people into other lands. The thing gleams like burnished steel, I'm told, two hundred feet high and forty thick, and there's not an opening to be found in it. Who could forget seeing that?"
Mat went very still. His black scarf felt too tight against his hanging scar. The scar itself suddenly felt fresh and hot. It was hard for him to draw breath.
"If there's no opening, how do we get in?" Thom wanted to know.
Noal shrugged, but Olver spoke up once more. "Birgitte says you make the sign on the side of it anywhere with a bronze knife." He made the sign that started the game. "She says it has to be a bronze knife. Make the sign, and a door opens."
------------
Valinthros: 2008-02-06
***Noal shrugged, but Olver spoke up once more. "Birgitte says you make the sign on the side of it anywhere with a bronze knife." He made the sign that started the game. "She says it has to be a bronze knife. Make the sign, and a door opens." ***
I was wondering when someone would link that. I read through this thread and every time I read something new, I thought to myself: Bronze Knife, Make the sign anywhere... not sure why people kept thinking 3 times around the structure would open any doors after reading the above passage. Thanks for posting what I was racking my brain to find; the quoted passage.
sklbrgt: 2008-06-18
the game of snakes and foxes has a quote that says: "music to dazle, iron to bind, fire to blind" or something like that. Therefore, i think Mat wil bring the iluminator with him, as he and Thom applies to the first two lines of the previous quote, and she seems like the most likely person to apply to the third part of it.
77jester: 2008-06-28
just a thought, probably better suited to a new theory. Yes it's accepted that Mat, Thom, and Noal are the 3 that will go because of Moraines letter, she mentioned that if more come it will be disasterous they might not survive or definitely won't.
What if Olver follows the trio not wanting to be left behind, he did that when Mat first met him, and he knows how to enter the tower. The rescue party could be in the process of getting away scot free, they use the forbidden tools and avoid a bargain to begin with, but then Olver shows up and forces a situation where Mat bargains away his eye.
Marie Curie 7: 2008-07-15
Ozymandias:
"ummm... we already know who the third is. Its Noal Charin."
No, I don't think we know for certain that the third person will be Noal - that's just the common speculation. Moiraine's letter says:
-------
TITLE - Knife of Dreams, CHAPTER: 10 - A Village in Shiota
When you receive this, you will be told that I am dead. All will believe that. I am not dead, and it may be that I shall live to my appointed years. It also may be that you and Mat Cauthon and another, a man I do not know, will try to rescue me. May, I say because it may be that you will not or cannot, or because Mat may refuse. He does not hold me in the affection you seem to, and he has his reasons which he no doubt thinks are good. If you try, it must be only you and Mat and one other. More will mean death for all. Fewer will mean death for all. Even if you come only with Mat and one other, death also may come. I have seen you try and die, one or two or all three. I have seen myself die in the attempt. I have seen all of us live and die as captives. Should you decide to make the attempt anyway, young Mat knows the way to find me, yet you must not show him this letter until he asks about it. That is of the utmost importance. He must know nothing that is in this letter until he asks. Events must play out in certain ways, whatever the costs.
-------
So there's no specification, of course, of who the "one other" is in the letter. Noal is present during the conversation about it, though, and says he'd like to see the Tower of Ghenjei:
-------
TITLE - Knife of Dreams, CHAPTER: 10 - A Village in Shiota
"The Tower of Ghenjei." Noal said, sitting up cross-legged and tugging his coat straight. "Not many know that tale anymore. Jain always said he'd go looking for it one day. Somewhere along the Shadow Coast, he said."
"That's still a lot of ground to search." Mat fitted the lid on one of the boxes. "It could take years." Years they did not have if Tuon was right, and he was sure that she was.
Thom shook his head. "She says you know, Mat. 'Mat knows the way to find me.' I doubt very much she'd have written that on a whim."
"Well, I can't help what she says, now can I? I never heard of any Tower of Ghenjei until tonight."
"A pity," Noal sighed. "I'd like to have seen it, something Jain bloody Farstrider never did. You might as well give over," he added when Thom opened his mouth. "He wouldn't forget seeing it, and even if he never heard the name, he'd have to think of it when he heard of a strange tower that lets people into other lands. The thing gleams like burnished steel, I'm told, two hundred feet high and forty thick, and there's not an opening to be found in it. Who could forget seeing that?"
-------
Noal's certainly a possibility for the third person, but by no means a certainty.
Chuckinator: 2009-09-07
After reading a few responses to this theory I decided to chime in.
1st. Mat, Thom, and Noal, "Jain Farstrider", will be the ones to attempt a rescue on Moiraine.
2nd. The game Snakes and Foxes was created for the purpose of teaching people how to defeat the Aelfinn and Eelfinn. First, by teaching the player that the only way to defeat them is to cheat and not follow the rules established in their long ago treaty.
3rd. The game explains how to defeat them in the opening phase that you say to start the game. 1st. Fire or light to blind them or prevent them from seeing you. 2nd. Music to dazzle, which will come from Noal and will be used to stun them. 3rd. Iron to bind them, meaning they will use iron to tie them up.
4th. The game also teaches them how to get to the land. Starting the game requires the players to draw a triangle with a wavy line through it, they will use a copper knife and draw the symbol on the Tower of Jenji while reciting the phase as in the game, which will create a portal to the far away land.
5th. In order to get Moiraine back they will have to play the game, but will cheat in the process.
The whole point is that the rescue group has everything they need to get Moiraine back. We know that without Moiraine at the last battle Rand will not win, according to Min.
The director of the website, Dragonmount, has already had an opportunity to read the newest book coming out and has said their are two climaxes in the book. I believe the 1st will be the rescue of Moiraine, and the 2nd will be Egwene taking complete control over the White Tower and all Aes Sedai.
Prince of Shandalle: 2009-10-20
Moiraine is needed at the Last Battle, as told by Min on several occasions and hinted at so many bloody times by RJ. Matt will take noal (Jain Farstrider) and thom with him to the tower of ghenji, which he saw in book 1 on Doman's ship.
Once again, the game snakes and foxes has a nursery ryhme which is the hints on how to cheat and beat the snakes and foxes. They will obviously do this.
Matt must give up half the light of the world to save the world, as fortold previously. He will sacrifice his eye somehow when saving Moraine, as she is NEEDED by Rand to win the Last Battle; this has once again been told so many times.
Noal's knowledge will be needed somewhere along the way as he is Jain Farstrider, and thom is needed for things such as music.
It is very clear, and very simple.
And i thought for sure that Olver was Gaidal Cain, but apparently RJ did an interview where he explicitly said that he wasn't. So that sucks cos it would have been awesome and perfect!!
MatOdin: 2009-10-28
It can't be Olver going with Mat and Thom to rescue Moiraine because in KoD Noal (who is possibly Jaim Farstrider,) asks if he can tag along. ALso, it is neccesary to rescue Moiraine because in aCoS in the chapter when Rand gets his second side wound, she thinks of a viewing she had that Rand would 'fail without a woman surely dead adn gone, so it is necessary to have Moiraine rescued. And remember only three could go.
Tragon: 2010-02-13
Fire to blind -> Mat will obviously take some of Aludras "firesticks". Moraines rescue, by Mat/Jain/Thom, will probably be one of the two-three climaxes in Towers of Midnight. Im guessing that the seanchan and black tower will be dealt with too.